CHARLIE KIRK SHOOTING: JUDGE WINCES @ SHOCK VIDEO, WIDOW EXITS

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode Summary: "CHARLIE KIRK SHOOTING: JUDGE WINCES @ SHOCK VIDEO, WIDOW EXITS"

Date: July 7, 2026

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Overview

In this gripping episode, Nancy Grace brings together legal experts, law enforcement, forensic specialists, and journalists to dissect the dramatic courtroom hearing in the Charlie Kirk shooting case. As harrowing video evidence is played, the accused snickers in court while the widow breaks down. The episode explores the emotional and forensic details of the case, the implications of newly revealed evidence, and the battle unfolding between prosecution and defense, culminating in a moment so shocking that even the judge is visibly shaken.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Courtroom Atmosphere and the Defendant’s Behavior

• Unsettling Demeanor:

  • Tyler Robinson, the defendant, is reported laughing and smirking before the hearing, while Charlie Kirk’s widow, Erica, sobs nearby.
  • Notable Quote:
    “There was some laughter, Nancy. I don’t know the exact minute, but there definitely was some laughter.” — Nate Eaton [06:15]
  • Nancy criticizes attempts to minimize Robinson's behavior as "moments of levity" in a grave context, pushing back on typical defense rationale.

• Contrasting Emotions:

  • The panel discusses the emotional impact on the victims’ families versus the apparent lack of remorse from the defendant.
  • Notable Quote:
    “Whether he is guilty or innocent, laughing with Charlie Kirk’s widow, Erica, a few feet away...that takes let's just say balls of size coconuts...This would be more like insulting, demeaning, discounting what she has been through.” — Nancy Grace [16:41]

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2. The Evidence: Tools, Weapons, and Forensics

• The Mysterious Screwdriver:

  • A red and black screwdriver found near the crime scene may have been used to access the rooftop sniper’s den.
  • Forensic insights stress the screwdriver’s potential to leave tool marks or be used for assembling/disassembling the weapon.
  • Notable Quote:
    "If you're trying to pry something open, that's going to leave a treasure trove of trace evidence and impression evidence on the lock, because you can actually marry that up, almost like a ballistic signature to that actual screwdriver." — Joe Scott Morgan [09:11]

• Sniper’s Nest Analysis:

  • Witnesses describe observing a disturbed gravel area on the roof, suggesting someone lay in a prone ‘sniper’s’ position.
  • Former Army sniper Koa Lorimore explains the importance of comfort and how marks in gravel indicate weapon placement.
  • Explanation:
    "If he was set up to take the perfect shot on Charlie, he could have waited, you know, hours...so you want to be as comfortable as possible…" — Koa Lorimore [13:45]

• Weapon Used and Ballistics:

  • Discussion of the bolt-action rifle, likely a .30-06, “deadliest mushroom in the woods,” and its devastating effect.
  • The forensic challenge of linking bullet fragments to a specific weapon due to fragmentation.
  • Notable Quote:
    "If you think about a round mushrooming...that would suddenly go from like a .30 caliber, maybe up to a .35 caliber..." — Joe Scott Morgan [29:32]

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3. The Surveillance, Return to Scene, and Motive

• Robinson Returning to the Scene:
  • Surveillance shows Tyler Robinson revisiting the campus several times, including after the shooting, possibly to retrieve the weapon.
  • Dr. Bethany Marshall offers psychological insight into why perpetrators often revisit crime scenes, attributing it here to a lack of remorse and possibly taking pride in the act.
  • Notable Quote:
    "He wanted to sort of revel in the fact that he had actually completed what he had set out to do...he is gleeful. He is happy." — Dr. Bethany Marshall [16:10]

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4. Public Reaction, Free Speech Context, and Event Security

• Event Background:
  • There was substantial opposition to Charlie Kirk’s appearance at the university, with campus protests and security concerns underestimated.
  • Dave Mack highlights how the event became a flashpoint for free speech debates on campuses.
  • Notable Quote:
    "There was always a battleground because he wanted to have this discussion, this dialogue. And it brought out people who just don’t believe that if you disagree with them, you should be allowed to speak." — Dave Mack [21:53]

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5. Chain of Custody and Defense Strategies

• Second Gun Possibility & Investigation Flaws:

  • A pistol holster was discovered at the scene but not collected as evidence; this sloppiness gives the defense ammunition to create doubt.
  • Notable Quote:
    "When you can show a jury that the investigation was sloppy, it creates questions, it creates doubt...if law enforcement was sloppy here, that means they were sloppy over here, too." — Josh Colesrude [37:48]

• Evidence Authenticity Concerns:

  • The defense challenges the origin and validity of the video evidence due to potential editing/splicing.

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6. Emotional Toll and Judge’s Reaction

• Graphic Evidence Shocks the Court:
  • As surveillance of the shooting is played, Erica Kirk and Charlie Kirk's parents leave the courtroom in distress, and the judge visibly recoils upon viewing the footage.
  • Dr. Bethany Marshall explains the trauma of witnessing such violence, even for seasoned officials.
  • Notable Quote:
    "It was such a shock that even the judge...still was shocked enough that he recoiled. And that’s what has caused the family so much pain..." — Dave Mack [45:59]
  • Notable Quote:
    "It's a moment of humanity. It's attaching to the victim and to the families and to the reality of what happened." — Dr. Bethany Marshall [46:45]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• Nancy Grace’s focus on evidence:
  “I don’t care if the angel Gabriel descended into that courtroom and sat on the front row. I would arrest him for disturbing the courtroom. Handcuffs for the hands and a rope for the wings.” [04:40]

• On humanizing pain:
  “We’ll never know the depth of her pain or any of his friends. But you know what they will remember is what they saw…because that is the reality of what we’re faced with…” — Joe Scott Morgan [18:44]

• Dr. Bethany Marshall on lack of remorse:
  “He’s not seeing Erica Kirk. He’s not seeing the entire family.…There’s total lack of empathy and remorse, Nancy. It’s just a glorification of what he was able to do.” [17:38]

• On the impact of evidence mishandling:
  “All they had to do was pick it up and put it…the holster, into an evidence bag. How hard is that? But when you’re incompetent…apparently, it’s very difficult.” — Josh Colesrude [37:48]

• Nancy Grace on the judge’s reaction:
  “When that judge recoils… the defense has a problem.” [48:14]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:41] — Mother identifies shooter from FBI images; defendant's alleged alibi.
• [01:24] — Eyewitness account of the shooting moment.
• [02:13] — Analysis of defendant’s courtroom behavior.
• [06:52] — Discovery of screwdriver and its potential significance.
• [12:13] — Description of the sniper’s nest and physical evidence.
• [13:45] — Army sniper explains preparation and significance of sniper's position.
• [15:00] — Surveillance details of defendant returning to the crime scene.
• [20:31] — Background on Kirk event controversy and campus protests.
• [24:02] — Surveillance evidence places suspect on the roof.
• [26:10] — Forensic discussion of weapon and ammunition; explanation of bolt-action mechanism.
• [28:50] — Forensic breakdown of the bullet wound.
• [32:09] — DNA recovery from the towel used to conceal the weapon.
• [35:20] — Possibility of second gun; mishandled evidence.
• [37:35] — Defense strategies exploiting investigative errors.
• [44:48] — Emotional breakdown and judge's reaction to graphic video.
• [46:45] — Dr. Bethany Marshall on vicarious trauma and human reaction.

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Conclusion

Nancy Grace and her expert panel deliver a raw, detailed analysis of the Charlie Kirk shooting case’s preliminary hearing, highlighting the emotional devastation of the attack, the technical details under scrutiny, the human frailty of all involved—even the judge—and the intense legal maneuvers already emerging. The episode emphasizes the importance of every single piece of evidence, the pain left in a tragedy’s wake, and the battle for justice still unfolding.

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For updates and to contribute information to the investigation, contact the tip line mentioned in the episode.

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an I heart podcast, guaranteed human crime stories with nancy grace. Tonight to the Charlie Kirk shooting hearing. In the courtroom, the judge physically recoils when he sees shock video. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Apparently, the day after the shooting, this

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

mother looks at the images released by the FBI as they were hunting this person down. She thinks it looks like her son.

[Nate Eaton]

Calls him.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

He says he's at home sick for

[Nancy Grace]

the second day in a row. He said he was homesick. What did he add? The dog ate my homework. Homesick. That's a week.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

There's no way that you're not going to recognize your child.

[Courtroom Witness]

I could see the right side of Charlie's shoulder. So not his whole body because I had that. He was underneath the tent, so I could only see probably the right side of his body. He was answering a question. Kid asking him a question. And then I heard a shot fired. What did you see at that moment? I saw him lean to the left. So I.

[Nate Eaton]

When you say him, you.

[Courtroom Witness]

Charlie. Charlie. So I saw him go to the left because I could no longer see the right side of his body. Then everybody started getting up and starting to run in more of a chaos kind of situation.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us tonight, an all star panel. But you just saw what's happening in the courtroom. To Nate Eaton joining us, news director, East Idaho News, and star of courtroom insider on YouTube. Nate, explain to me the why the defendant, Tyler Robinson was smirking and laughing and a few feet away, Mr. Kirk's widow Erica was sobbing. Just. That's quite the dichotomy, is it not?

[Nate Eaton]

Yeah, I don't, I don't know why he was doing that, Nancy. What I do know is that he was joking with his attorney, appeared to be joking. They were chatting with each other as very serious things were being discussed, including the shooting of Charlie Kirk. There was video being shown in the hearing of Charlie Kirk being shot and other evidence and video surveillance footage that we're learning about and seeing for the first time during this court hearing.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, I'm flummoxed. Straight out to Josh Colesrude joining me, veteran criminal defense attorney, former federal prosecutor, founder of Colesrude Law Firm, and star of no contest podcast Colesrud. What is he laughing about?

[Josh Colesrude]

Well, you know, it's an all day hearing, right? And there are always going to be moments of levity. You know, as much as we don't want to Admit, you know, Mr. Robinson is a human being and there are going to be moments where he, you Know, may smile a little bit. Now, I looked at the video. You know, this wasn't a burst of laughter. Right. There was a short smile that he had with a conversation he was having with his attorney. It wasn't inappropriate for a courtroom. Meaning that if I was the judge, I wouldn't necessarily stop the proceedings to ask the defendant, you know, what's funny? Do you find this funny? Like, it wasn't that type of situation. And, you know, I think that we just have to look at this in context. You know, we're looking at one very small.

[Nancy Grace]

I bet you do, don't you? Look at it in context. Context of Charlie Kirk's dead body shot through the neck. And let me correct you. Actually, I'm going to let Nate Eaton correct you. Nate Eaton, joining us, news director, East Idaho News. Nate, we heard Josh Colesrood spinning it out. Spinning it out that during a long hearing like this, there are moments of levity. Well, that's BS technical legal term. Because wasn't the laughter and the smirking at the very beginning before the proceedings even started?

[Nate Eaton]

It was at the beginning, Nancy. Yeah. Court hadn't quite started yet. The audience or the gallery was being ushered into the courtroom. Erica Kirk, very somber. Charlie Kirk's parents were there with her. Don Jr. Donald Trump Jr. Was there as well. They were all in the courtroom.

[Nancy Grace]

Dear Lord in heaven. Nate Eaton. This is not a who's who of celebs showing up to pack the courtroom. Don't care. Care about one thing, One thing only. The evidence, the probative evidence I need, if I were prosecuting this case, enough evidence for the judge to bind this over, state that there is PC probable cause for this case to be heard by a jury. I don't care if the angel Gabriel descended into that courtroom and sat on the front row. I would arrest him for disturbing the courtroom. Handcuffs for the hands and a rope for the wings. Don't tell me who showed up and who was wearing what. Don't go there. I only want to hear about the evidence. Is that understood?

[Nate Eaton]

Yeah. Well, my purpose in saying that, Nancy, is everybody was very somber, very quiet. Yes, it was. It was.

[Nancy Grace]

Right. Okay, back to it. The smirking and the laughing. I'm sorry to cut you off. I actually mean that with you, Nate Eaton. I've got this amount of time to discuss that amount of evidence. So I find it very probative that Tyler Robinson was actually guffawing, laughing, smirking at the beginning of the proceedings. Now, Josh Colesrie tried to chalk it off, too. It was a Long day. No, it wasn't. Also, he also stated that there was no laughing. It's my understanding he was laughing. It wasn't just a. It was a full on laughter. Am I wrong?

[Nate Eaton]

There was some laughter, Nancy. I don't know the exact minute, but there definitely was some laughter.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. Also, Josh Colesrut, in his attempt to turn moldy hay into gold Rumpelstiltskin, he stated that it wasn't so bad that the judge stopped the proceedings and reprimanded Robinson because the proceedings hadn't started yet. That's why the proceedings were not stopped. So all of Colesride defenses just got shot down. But I'm going to give him a moment to think about what he said. I'm sure he'll come up with something new. Let's go straight back into the courtroom.

[Courtroom Witness]

When I got on top, I hopped over the guardrail. I noticed that there was a. An object which was sitting right about 10 or 15ft in from the other side of the guardrail in the gravel that looked out of place to me.

[Nate Eaton]

And in relationship to where you hopped over the guardrail, what direction was that object?

[Courtroom Witness]

To the west of the guardrail.

[Nate Eaton]

Okay, and did you recognize the object?

[Courtroom Witness]

I did.

[Nate Eaton]

And what was it?

[Courtroom Witness]

It was a red and black screwdriver.

[Dave Mack]

Okay,

[Nancy Grace]

that. From our friends at East Idaho News, Nate Eaton. Why is a screwdriver important?

[Nate Eaton]

Well, Nancy, this is an officer who was working that day when the shots rang out. He heard the gunshot. He ran from his position down to the courtyard where there were thousands of people running. Chaotic. It was crazy. Were crying. He's trying to ascertain what happened here. He looks up to the nearby roof. He works his way up there as he testified, and that's where he finds a screwdriver. Now, why would you need a screwdriver on the roof? It's believed that Mr. Robinson likely used it to get his way onto the roof to work his way up a stairwell which was easily accessible to the public. But once you got to the top, you needed to jump over a railing. And then to actually get on the roof, he likely could have used that screwdriver.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, you're absolutely right. Nate Eaton and Joe Scott Morgan. Why a screwdriver? Let's see if we can catch a shot of just anyone walking up the steps to the sniper's den. How do you get in and out of those parking garage doors? Oh, maybe with a screwdriver. Okay, turn toward the camera. Look this. Oops. I hate when that happens. I bet Josh Colesrew does too. When your client looks right at a surveillance video. Okay, Jo Scott Morgan joining me, professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University, the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit series podcast, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. But he is a death investigator with over 10,000 death scenes under his belt. Why a screwdriver? Why is it important?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Well, I think that it could have multiple utility. First off, we're talking about Jimmy in a potential lock that he might have to defeat in order to get access to the roof. I've often wondered if he's already been to that roof before in the days leading up to try to assess that position. With that said, I think another potential for that screwdriver is possibly there to break down the weapon. But again, none of this has been completely revealed at this point. Now, going back to the lock, if he did in fact attempt to jimmy a lock with a screwdriver. Nancy, tool marks are going to come into effect here. So the blade of that, of that screwdriver, you think about the business end of a screwdriver. If you're trying to pry something open, that's going to leave a treasure trove of trace evidence and impression evidence on the lock, because you can actually marry that up, almost like a ballistic signature to that actual screwdriver. And the marks that are left behind on the door, that's going to be key here. So I, I don't know that anything is off the table relative to the screwdriver. It could have multiple utility.

[Nancy Grace]

And you know what's interesting? I think Colesride will agree with this. Every piece of evidence, even if it's just a screwdriver, could have probative value. I remember a serial killer. I got him on one. I could extrapolate so much from one earring based on where I found the earring. It had been sliced out of the victim's ear, and the earring was in one place, and the body with the other earring still attached was in another place. It really helped me prove that case. My point is, don't discount the screwdriver. Don't.

[Josh Colesrude]

You know, you're right, Nancy, that you know, every piece of evidence, including the screwdriver, you know, could be essential to a case. But it swings both ways. You know, the screwdriver may actually end up helping Mr. Robinson. We just don't know enough about it right now. For example, you know, where exactly was it found on the roof? Was it near the so called sniper pad? And how exactly did it allow Mr. Robinson to gain access to the roof? I Don't think that's been explained to the point where we all have an aha moment. Oh, like, you know, yeah, of course, you know, he used a screwdriver to get past a lock or something like that. Like right now, you know, it's interesting, and I think that there may be something there, but we just don't know enough about it to say whether or not it's going to be very probative or not helpful at all.

[Nancy Grace]

True. Obviously, we don't know yet, but I do know this. I'm sure they're looking to see if it came right out of daddy's toolbox that he bought at Lowe's. And the only thing missing is that red and black screwdriver. That said, I want to go back into the courtroom.

[Courtroom Witness]

Listen, when I got up there and I could see this disturbance in gravel, to me, it looks like a sniper pad, a person that has been laid in a prone position. And you've got markings of elbows, knees and feet to where somebody was in the line of sight of where Charlie's tent was. Plus, also towards the far right of the photo is also a marker where, like, somebody laid a gun down.

[Dave Mack]

Okay.

[Courtroom Witness]

It's like a prone position.

[Nancy Grace]

East Idaho News inside the courtroom, bringing us that video straight out to special guest joining us tonight, a former army sniper, Koa Lorimore. Koa, thank you for being with us tonight. Explain what is a sniper's nest?

[Koa Lorimore]

So your sniper's nest or sniper's hide is going to be any preset position that you take your shot from. Now, if he was laying down on the roof in the gravel, that's going to leave impressions of his chest, his arms, his legs. And then even if his rifle has bipods right there, that's going to leave impressions in the gravel as well.

[Nancy Grace]

So you state that it in the past, you have stated anyway that it's very important for the sniper to be comfortable. That video, you were just saying, by the way, is from Shard man on X. And it looks very sinister right there. Looks very, very sinister. That said, Koa, why Comfort? Why does that matter?

[Koa Lorimore]

Comfort matters in your sniper's position because you don't know how long you're going to be there. If he was set up to take the perfect shot on Charlie, he could have waited, you know, hours, however long the ceremony was set up before. So you want to be as comfortable as possible, so you can wait to take the perfect shot.

[Nancy Grace]

How do you prepare a sniper's nest?

[Koa Lorimore]

So first you'd survey the area so you're going to go where your best line of sight to your target is. Then sometimes we'd use a yoga mat, lay it down so we're comfortable on the uncomfortable ground or uneven ground and the prone position, laying down on the ground flat is probably the most comfortable position for a human to lay for extended periods of time.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with nancy grace. So to you, Nate Eaton, following up on what Koa Lorimore just told us. Nate joining us from East Idaho News, and he's the star of Courtroom Insider. How many times do we believe Tyler Robinson had been to the sniper's nest before the shooting?

[Nate Eaton]

We don't know exactly how many times he went to that specific spot, but we do know he was on the campus that day, according to surveillance footage, at least four times. That includes a visit after the shooting late that night. In fact, it was midnight around midnight the next morning. And many believe that he went back to try to retrieve the weapon that he had left behind near the building that the FBI and investigators had already taken.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of the LA jurisdiction, it's Dr. Bethany Marshall. She is the author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock and Bravo. She's the star of a brand new podcast on the couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall. And you can find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com. Dr. Bethany I've always wondered this. Why do perps return to the scene of the crime? I don't need to know why when proving or telling that to a jury, it's like a dog that circles three times and finally sits down. I don't know why. I just know that they do. And it means something. It means something to me.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Well, in the case of this perpetrator, he probably knew Charlie Kirk's speaking schedule. He knew that this was an upcoming event and that after the commission of the crime, he wanted to sort of revel in in the fact that he had actually completed what he had set out to do. And I think in this case, you know, the laughter in the court, he's gleeful. He is not remorseful for what he has done. He is gleeful. He is happy.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Bethany I'm glad you brought that back up. Whether he is proven guilty or not guilty, whether he is guilty or innocent, laughing with Charlie Kirk's widow, Erica, a few feet away at one point during the hearing. And Nate, correct me if I'm wrong, she was lying on Charlie Kirk's mom's shoulder, just crying and he's laughing. Whether he's innocent or guilty, that takes let's Just say balls of size coconuts. Correction. Balls the size of coconuts suggest bravery. This would be more like insulting, demeaning, discounting what she has been through while he's laughing, while she's crying a few feet away.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Well, it suggests to me that he's actually focused on only one aspect of the crime. He's not seeing Erica Kirk. He's not seeing the entire family. He's not viewing the humanity of it all. And there's. There's total lack of empathy and remorse, Nancy. He's just. He's. It's just a glorification of what he was able to do.

[Nancy Grace]

Guys, you're seeing footage. Oh, my goodness. You're seeing footage of Charlie Kirk's coffin. You saw widow Erica kissing his hand. It's just Jo. Scott Morgan joining us, death investigator. What they likely had to do to reconstruct his neck. I didn't realize that there had at some point been an open casket. I just. I just feel so bad for her.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, it's haunting. It truly is. And we'll never know the depth of her pain or any of his friends. But you know what they will remember or is what they saw, what they saw in those last moments, because that is the reality of what we're faced with now coming into this trial or coming into this hearing. Certainly. And, you know, you were talking about just a moment ago, the snickering that's going on and this sort of thing. However you want to frame it, I. I don't really care, because the gravity of all of this is lost on certain people. I think we hear a lot in the news about what they think happened, what may have happened, all these wild conspiracy things. But this is the reality of what you see in here. This is what families deal with every single day in America. And this is. This is portrayed. Portrayed before us in living color here. And this is the reality of it. This is what's left behind. So the key here, though, from a forensic standpoint, is to understand where did the breadcrumbs lie relative to the science, how do they prove or disprove what actually happened that day and to document it. And that's very, very important so that everybody understands the depth and the gravity of all of this.

[Nancy Grace]

To Dave Mack, joining me, Crime Stories. Investigative reporter Nate and Bethany and I were talking about whether Tyler Robinson had been to the sniper's nest before Charlie Kirk was murdered, was assassinated. How heavily was Charlie Kirk's event publicized?

[Dave Mack]

Nancy? It was publicized enough that there was a bit of a battle brewing on the campus of UVU early enough in the date for September 10th. On September 3rd, the UVU review published a piece about, you know, their activities on campus and free speech. There was opposition to Charlie Kirk appearing on campus well before we're talking at least a week and before. And the group against Charlie Kirk appearing at the campus started a protest on change.org and had 896 people signed up to prevent him from speaking at a First Amendment free speech event. So there was a lot of activity. But, Nancy, the campus was only expecting about 600 students to show up at the event, and yet there were at least 3,000 and probably more in attendance. So they really had an undervalue of what was going on. They didn't quite understand what Charlie Kirk was bringing to campuses across the country.

[Nancy Grace]

So let me understand a Mac. There was opposition to Kirk speaking. People wanted to prevent him from speaking at a free speech event.

[Dave Mack]

Absolutely. That was common at almost every college campus that Charlie Kirk spoke. It was. There was always a battleground because he wanted to have this discussion, this dialogue. And it brought out people who just don't believe that if you disagree with them, you should be allowed to speak. And so that's. That actually happened in almost every college campus that Charlie Kirk spoke.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, I don't get it. Dr. Bethany Marshall. We have communists, we have hate groups. We have white supremacists. We have the kkk, we have Nazi groups. We have people burning our beloved flag. And that's okay, right? It's all reprehensible. Why is it they can get away with that and Kirk can't have an event?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

You know what else we have, Nancy, is with our high schoolers, we have debate. People go on debate teams, and they debate different points of view. Socrates, Aristotle, all the great philosophers, they debated different points of view. I mean, the idea that somebody comes onto campus as a provocateur is. Is actually good for the students. It actually sharpens their thinking. It sharpens their point of view, whether they agree with him or disagree. I think that what we have with Tyler Robinson is somebody who. We can't really attach it directly to Charlie Kirk. We have to say that this is somebody who was pretty much looking for a target. And if we get into the weeds about what Charlie Kirk was saying, what his point of view was, if we agree or disagree, we lose the plot. And that's what this is all about.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight back into the courtroom.

[Courtroom Witness]

I realized that we probably didn't have our shooter in custody from that moment. I asked Dispatch to get on the camera System and to see if anybody was on top of the LOSI building during the time of the incident.

[Nate Eaton]

Were you advised of anything?

[Courtroom Witness]

I was. Dispatch came back and advised me that there was a male individual on top of the roof that was there at the time of the shooting.

[Nate Eaton]

Did they describe what his movements were?

[Courtroom Witness]

They did. They stated that he ran to the edge, dropped down, crawled, got in a prone position.

[Nate Eaton]

I'm gonna stop you right there. Ran to the edge. What direction and what edge?

[Courtroom Witness]

Running west and southwest of the Losey building. So ran towards the tent where Charlie Crook was so they could get a line of sight. And then the individual stood up after the shooting and ran northeast on top of the Losey building.

[Nancy Grace]

From our friends at East Idaho News, let's see the video of the perp coming down off the top of the building while Nate Eaton describes what that testimony was, explain the significance of what we just heard.

[Nate Eaton]

Well, this is huge, Nancy, because they were able to pull this surveillance footage and show allegedly Mr. Robinson there on the roof. You see him coming to the edge, jumping down here. He starts to run for a minute, but then he starts to hobble or somewhat limp, as if he's maybe injured himself. Right about here is where it stops. He starts to kind of limp and then he leaves the campus. But he returns hours later, hours later. And it was actually ring doorbell footage from a neighbor in the dark that caught him parking across the street and walking back down, returning to the car and leaving again. So these cameras really pieced it all together as multiple videos were shown during the hearing.

[Nancy Grace]

So the video of him going through nearby neighborhoods on foot, cutting across yards and back cuts was shown in the hearing, correct?

[Nate Eaton]

Right. Yep.

[Nancy Grace]

But to call Lordmore. Joining us, former army sniper. Based on what your understanding of the murder is what type of weapon was used and can you explain to us bolt action?

[Nate Eaton]

Yes.

[Koa Lorimore]

So the type of weapon that was used is a bolt action rifle. So to explain bold action, one movement of this action chambers around, so you shoot, press the trigger. Round goes out, you need to chamber another round. Now your typical AR15 is going to do that automatically, right? So you're going to shoot on like AR15 and then a round is automatically going to get chambered. No need to move this.

[Nancy Grace]

Nate Eaton, speaking of ballistics, was a shell casing recovered and the sniper's desk in the sniper's nest?

[Nate Eaton]

No, not there, in the sniper's den. And, and no area around it. But we did learn, and Joe Scott would probably be able to speak to this, that there were fragments found during the autopsy of Charlie Kirk.

[Nancy Grace]

Koa Lorrimore. Explain to me, Koa everyone is former army sniper. The difference in a handgun, a bullet, ammunition used in a handgun as opposed to a long gun.

[Koa Lorimore]

So the ammunition used in a handgun is going to be much smaller, shoot much shorter distances. This is a.30 06 is what believe that Charlie Kirk got shot with. And it's much larger and used for a large game. There is a round called Core Lock made by Remington, which is a very common hunting round and it is nicknamed the deadliest mushroom in the woods. That's because the round expands on impact. And this has been used since the 1900s by the United States military and still commonly used by hunters today.

[Nancy Grace]

Koa, have you ever fired that type of weapon?

[Koa Lorimore]

Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

Does it have a recoil?

[Koa Lorimore]

Yes, it does have a recoil. It pushes your shoulder back a little. Nothing your average adult male could not handle.

[Nancy Grace]

To Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, jumping off what Koa Lori Moore just stated about this bullet being the largest mushroom in the forest. Joe Scott Morgan, professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University. He is the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is the star of a hit podcast, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan, and he is a death investigator. Joe Scott explained to me what that would have done as it tore through Charlie Kirk's neck.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Well, as it passes through the soft tissue of the neck, Nancy, it's going to create a cavity, if you will. It will in fact cavitate and create a track. We refer to it as a wound track. It's one of the things that we look for at autopsy. And if you think about the trajectory, we hear a lot about that term in the morgue. One of the things that we can do, we can determine the flight path of the round upon initial impact onto the surface of the neck. So as it passes through the soft tissue, it'll begin to rip away the tiny little vessels that are contained therein. It can also impact and damage the larger vessels. You know, you think about things like the carotid and the jugular vein and all those sorts of things. And then once you hit the spine, you're talking about all the surrounding vessels that supply the spine and spinal spinal cord with blood and also the structure of the spine getting into additionally into the spinal cord itself. Now, to this point, we have yet to hear everything that they have regarding this wound track, but this round would in fact be devastating. Koa had mentioned that this round could mushroom. And if it does, remember, once around mushrooms, it increases the caliber size. You hear us talk about 30 caliber and.45 caliber and all these sorts of things. So if you think about a round mushrooming, Nancy, that would suddenly go from like a.30 caliber, maybe up to a.35 caliber, maybe up to a.40 caliber. Because what you're doing is you're increasing the diameter of this surface and it's ripping and tearing as it's going along down that bullet path.

[Nancy Grace]

Were you able to tell what that object was in his hand?

[Courtroom Witness]

Yes. Well, not tell what it is. I can see there's an object in that left hand. Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

And could you, knowing what you know about the case today, do you have an idea about what that object was?

[Courtroom Witness]

It looks like a rifle or something to that effect. A long, long object. It looks like a rifle, like a long object. Like skinny long. You can see it's like, almost like it's covered over something.

[Nancy Grace]

So you saw the COVID which was the towel, right?

[Courtroom Witness]

Yes. And the shape of it is long.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, so you can see a towel, but you can't see an actual.

[Courtroom Witness]

I don't know if it was a towel or blanket. I don't know what it was.

[Nancy Grace]

But you can't see an actual gun?

[Courtroom Witness]

No, like an object, like a form of a gun, like a long object.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Bethany Marshall, she think we're idiots. She said, well, all you really saw was a towel? Well, I mean, yeah, because he doesn't have X ray vision, but it's in the shape of a gun.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

So a towel hit Charlie Kirk in the neck. I mean, honestly. Yeah, no, we. We all know what happened on that day. We're all well acquainted with it. And it's just a tragedy. That's what. What unfolded.

[Nancy Grace]

I mean, to suggest that we don't know what was under the towel, that you couldn't make it out. But you know what? Nate Eaton joining us, a star of Courtroom Insider on YouTube and news director, East Idaho News. Please tell me, please tell me the towel was recovered.

[Nate Eaton]

They did recover the towel, according to the FBI, Nancy. Not only that, they were able to obtain DNA off of the towel. Now, we don't know if that was sweat, if that was blood when he fell and cut himself, or his fingerprints. We don't know exactly what the DNA was, maybe his hair. But the FBI did confirm that they did obtain DNA from the towel.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm just wondering, Nate, if there's also going to be gunshot residue on the towel, because that would be a prosecutor's dream for the towel to have not only gunshot residue from a recently fired long gun, but also DNA from the defendant. Thoughts?

[Nate Eaton]

There could be gunshot residue on that for sure. If he kept that towel wrapped around the gun or even near the gun when it was fired from that rooftop, no doubt that it would have some remnant of it down below.

[Nancy Grace]

KOA Lorimore joining us, former army sniper can you dismantle a long gun of that nature? Because, you know, we see on movies and TV where immediately the sniper breaks down the gun and puts it in a little box that big and just walks off. I don't know if that's possible with this weapon.

[Koa Lorimore]

So there is multiple long guns, Nancy, that can be broken down, but an older gun of this version, it would be quite hard to disassemble quickly and break down.

[Nancy Grace]

Could you hold up the weapon you have that is similar to the murder weapon in this case? Okay, yeah, that's not breaking down. And you said earlier that the tripod legs at the beginning would have left a mark, an indentation of some sort in the sniper's nest.

[Koa Lorimore]

Yes, Nancy. So these would be to stabilize the weapon. So they would go right into the gravel, which would leave 2 marks, pretty obvious to police. Right in the gravel, right where he left.

[Nancy Grace]

So, Josh Colesrude, look at what Koa Lorimore is holding up. Colesrude, VETERAN CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY so you're telling me if you put a towel from the Holiday Inn over that, I can't tell it's a gun?

[Josh Colesrude]

Well, I think what she was trying to get at was that we just don't know yet what the evidence means. And, you know, the defense attorney is doing her job. You know, she's calling into question the evidence because, you know, the security at that location just wasn't what it was should have been for an event like this, you know, and had security been tighter, you know, Charlie Kirk may still be alive today. And what we also would have known for better security is, you know, who had access, who was up there. And, you know, because we didn't have any eyes on that location, it just, it means that anybody could have had access. Right. Not just Mr. Robinson. And so the defense attorney is creating these reasonable questions about evidence that we just don't know a lot about.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, straight out to Dave Mack joining us, crime Stories, investigative reporter. Then in court, a defense attorney's wildest dream comes true. Evidence of a second gun emerging, which could conceivably torpedo the state's case. There's another gun. Really? Does that mean Tyler Robinson didn't fire the murder bullet? Oh, listen, Dave, we, I was informed

[Courtroom Witness]

on the radio that we had a shooter in custody So I thought at that moment, I was like, well, that was kind of fast. Obviously, it was close range, probably because we had an individual in custody. Another officer came on, said, we had an individual in custody. So I started pushing people off the grass out of the courtyard area because I knew that's where the crime scene was. Soon as we started pushing those guys out, my chief, Chief Long, that was right next to me, I looked down and saw an empty pistol holder that was sitting just on top of the grass. And at that moment, things had died down. Just a split second, I realized that the shot I heard was more of a rifle shot.

[Nancy Grace]

And not a day back, a second gun, the specter of a second shooter.

[Dave Mack]

Unbelievable, Nancy, that Christopher Bagley testifies. That's who you were listening to, right? Then, talking about seeing this holster on the ground near the top of the courtyard area, not on the rooftop where investigators found, you know, evidence of the den, of the sniper's den, but on the ground. Now, here's the problem, Nancy. We have a holster for a pistol on the ground right there in this area where Charlie Kirk has just been shot. And Bagley did not collect it as evidence. He did not know who it belonged to. He didn't know whether it was ever fingerprinted or anything else. He just didn't do anything other than observe a holster on the ground.

[Nancy Grace]

Josh Colesrude. I mean, I don't even have to give you a cue for this, for Pete's sake. The defense will run wild. It's like giving a dog a bone and they run off with it. Explain.

[Josh Colesrude]

Yeah, let me tell you why. You know, the defense isn't going to say that, you know, Charlie Kirk wasn't shot by a rifle. Right? What this shows is a sloppy investigation. And when you can show a jury that the investigation was sloppy, it creates questions, it creates doubt. You know, why didn't the police collect the evidence? You know, what was there actually a weapon inside of the holster? Whose holster was it? You know, where is it now? You know, those are all interesting questions that juries will want answers from. And when the police are unable to provide those answers, that a clever defense attorney is going to say, well, look, if the law enforcement was sloppy here, that means they were sloppy over here, too, where there are also legitimate questions. So it calls into doubt, it calls into the credibility of the investigation itself. When they. When a law enforcement commits an unforced error, all they had to do was was pick it up and put it, the holster, into an evidence bag. How hard is that? But when you're incompetent. You're not doing your job correctly. Apparently, it's very difficult.

[Nancy Grace]

You mean like when you're trying to catch the shooter that you just saw jump off a roof? You don't wade into a sea of people to get an empty, empty holster. Okay, you call it incompetent? Yeah, I wish they had gotten the holster. I call it responding to an assassination. But, hey, that's just me. To Coa Lormore, FORMER ARMY SNIPER we cannot positively identify or match the fragment we believe is taken from Charlie's body. We don't know that yet where the fragment came from, but it was in the autopsy report that said we cannot match that fragment to Tyler Robinson's gun. But we can. Based on the circumference of the bottom of the bullet, which was not deformed upon impact, we can determine if it came from a long gun, not a handgun that would have fit into a holster. As we know it explained foreign.

[Koa Lorimore]

Yes, Nancy. So just because you can't match the fragment to the rifle doesn't mean the round did not come from that long gun. Also, the back of the round is going to be wider than your average pistol round, and so comparatively, they're going to be totally different. And you can tell, even though the round is going to mushroom and expand when it hits its target, you can tell what size.

[Nancy Grace]

Hold up the bottom of that for me. So I can see the width of the bottom of the. See that? See that? That. That was not. Other end. Other end. Other bottom. There you go. Yes. Okay. Joe Scott. Morgan, do you see that? He's right. Koa Lorrimore is right. Joe Scott, explain in your scientific jargon what we're saying, because this is what a jury is going to hear.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah. So when you're trying to match around to a specific barrel, you're going to look for striations along the long axis of the projectile itself. And those. Those specific striations will match up to the weapon, to the lands and grooves, as they're referred to, in the barrel that causes the bullet to spin. Now, that is a very distinctive ballistic signature. One of the problems that has come with this case, Nancy, is that they are alleging that this round actually fragmented. So they cannot include or exclude this to this rifle. However, as far as the specific type of round this was, that can be matched up. This is a 30.30 aught 6. So that can be matched up because apparently they still had the base of the round. I have a mushroom drowned right here. If you look at it Very carefully. You can see the base of it. Okay. And that's one of the things that they will be measuring to see if it marries up with that round. Now, they were talking about doing further testing here. I don't know what that testing is going to consist of, but it would seem to me that this, this round has fragmented to the point where they cannot lift any kind of ballistic signature off of these. One of the beauty parts to this, I think, is that, you know, one of the things that defense attorneys prattle on and on about relative to demonstrations at courtrooms, is that they will say that images from autopsies are too prejudicial because of the gore and the blood. They're not going to need that with this, Nancy. One of the things they're going to show in court are going to be radiographic images. So with Charlie's remains, what will have happened is that his body would have been thoroughly X rayed. They may have even done a ct. And you're going to see that lead storm pop up on that screen in that courtroom when this thing goes to trial. And you're going to see that cavitated area that's blown out through his neck. And you'll see those little bits of lead that lead to that actual terminal event as it goes through cavitating and clipping vessels in there until we see what happens in the end when Charlie falls over and he's deceased, bleeding from the night.

[Nancy Grace]

Let me see. Koa, Lori Moore and Jo Scott Morgan in a two shot, please. And Joe Scott, as we're showing you, Koa, please look at the deformed, as we say in court, the deformed spent shell. Could you hold that up, Jo Scott? So, Koa, you see the circumference of the bottom of that deformed shell right there? Okay. How can you koa, look at that and tell me that's not a 22, that's not a 36, that's not a 38. That is more akin to the, quote, deadliest mushroom in the forest from a long gun.

[Koa Lorimore]

Yes, ma'. Am. So it's going to measure a similar size to the back of the round here. Now, this is fully encased, but the back of the round is going to match the round here before it mushrooms out.

[Nancy Grace]

See the way you just said that? Perfect. Okay. Dave Mack, Erica Kirk had to get up and leave the courtroom when and why

[Dave Mack]

as the Erica Kirk as well as, as Charlie's parents, they both got up and walked out two different times during the hearing. And it comes down to the shots fired. You know, the shot fired, rather the courtroom. The. The way that the shot was shown, it was turned so that the gallery could not see it, but could hear it. And that caused Erica to leave as well as Charlie's parents. Just the whole idea of this hearing, Nancy, has just brought everything back to the forefront of everything they've had to defend. And, you know, Charlie Kirk's parents have been very quiet. They don't do a whole lot out, you know, and it's just been. Devastating, I guess, is probably the only real word that fits.

[Nancy Grace]

Dave, I hate to interrupt your pontificating, but when Erica got up and left along with Charlie Kirk's parents, is that when the judge visibly recoiled and winced when he saw the shooting video?

[Dave Mack]

It was right before that, Nancy. And the wincing that has caught everyone by surprise is because, you know, and you've mentioned this in past, you guys have seen everything in court, and this was such a shock that even the judge prepared to know what was happening still was shocked enough that he recoiled. And that's what has caused the family so much pain that they had to get up and leave.

[Nancy Grace]

No one, Dr. Bethany Marshall, explain what is happening. When it's so bad, the judge himself, who has seen it all, actually recoils on the bench, and Erica Kirk has to get up and leave.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

You know, Nancy, it's a moment of humanity. It's attaching to the victim and to the families and to the reality of what happened. You know, we think of post traumatic stress disorder as something that arises when something bad happens to us. But really, the criteria is when we see something horrible happen to a loved one, that's what causes ptsd. Our soldiers returning from the war, it's not because something bad happened to them and is because something bad happened to their comrades. They saw something that was devastating to somebody that they cared a great deal about. And I would imagine this judge, as with all of us, have attached ourselves to Charlie Kirk. We know that he was a provocateur. We know that he went to various campuses. He engaged in debates with students. And I think they're. You know, Nancy, I think there's. I think there's a certain amount of caring about debate, theory, politics, all of that that comes into play when you go to campus after campus and you engage with college students. You're trying to help them sharpen their own point of view. So this is somebody maybe even the judge came to care about, and it was traumatic for him to see what happened.

[Nancy Grace]

I can't speak to what was going through the judge's mind. But Dr. Bethany, even now, all these years later, just the thought of that video makes my stomach hurt because my fiance was shot in the head, the neck, the back. And we often protect our necks and it's such a vulnerable area of the body. And to think of that bullet that Koa Lorimore and Jo Scott Morgan were describing as the biggest mushroom in the forest slicing through Charlie Kirk's neck. And maybe I'm, you know, projecting what happened to Keith onto this, but it is very upsetting. No wonder she got up and left the room. No wonder the judge recoiled. Good luck with that. Kohl's rude. When you've got a trial judge, I don't mean an appellate judge, I don't mean an administrative judge, I don't mean to probate judge who just sits on the bench and reads and talks. I mean a trial judge that has seen it all. When that judge recoils, Kohl's rude, the defense has a problem.

[Josh Colesrude]

Well, you know, let's look at what happened in context. Right. You know, there was an issue with the video and the judge indicated he was not going to allow it. And it wasn't because it was so gory, which it obviously is. It's because it had been spliced and put together. And we've all seen it happen before where a clip goes viral on media.

[Nancy Grace]

We don't know that it was spliced and put together and we don't know the origin of some of the video. But it is public video. That's what the prosecution is arguing. I know where you're going. You're, you're claiming that the defense cannot authenticate the video and therefore it should not be be allowed in. But, however, that's not what I asked you. That said, I'm sure I understand why you're dodging the question about how awful the video is. We wait as justice unfolds. If you know or think you know anything about the assassination of Charlie Kirk, the state is still building its case. This is just a preliminary hearing. We haven't even struck a jury yet. Dial toll free 8002-2553-2480-0225-5324. We remember an American hero. Deputy Sheriff Erica Serrato, Montgomery County Sheriff, Texas. Just 24 killed in the line of duty after six years on the force, leaving behind grieving parents Letitia and Rodolfo. American hero Deputy Sheriff Erica Serrato. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight. But I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, goodnight, friend. This is an I heart podcast, guaranteed human.