CLASH OF TITANS NANOS-PATEL COSTS NANCY GUTHRIE'S LIFE?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: "CLASH OF TITANS NANOS-PATEL COSTS NANCY GUTHRIE'S LIFE?"
Date: May 7, 2026
Host: Nancy Grace

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Overview

In this gripping episode, Nancy Grace unpacks the high-profile case of Nancy Guthrie’s disappearance — the mother of NBC's Savannah Guthrie — focusing on tensions and investigative failures between the FBI (with Director Kash Patel) and Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanos. The episode explores the critical early delays, missteps, missed evidence, and potential consequences of jurisdictional pride. With a panel of top experts, Nancy scrutinizes whether local law enforcement’s actions have irreparably sabotaged the search for Nancy Guthrie and asks if she could still have been saved.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Immediate Failures in the Search for Nancy Guthrie

• Jurisdictional Turf Wars: The FBI, led by Kash Patel, was kept out of the investigation for the first four days — a crucial window referred to as "the first 48 hours."
  • [02:18] Kash Patel: “For four days, we were kept out of the investigation. And when we were finally let in… we went in and got the ring doorbell… called the leadership at Google to get any video before it was deleted.”
• Crime Scene Mismanagement: Local Pima Sheriff’s deputies released the crime scene before FBI access, risking evidence loss.
  • [04:08] Alison Weiner: “In those first four days… they thought it was just a walk away, that she had gone meandering… They released the crime scene before the FBI got in even.”

2. Critical DNA and Forensic Delays

• Missed Opportunity with the FBI’s Resources: DNA evidence was sent to a private lab in Florida instead of the FBI’s Quantico lab, despite Quantico’s offer to analyze immediately.
  • [05:47] Alison Weiner: “They didn't tell the FBI they had taken it to their private lab until after the fact… The FBI lab is free and one of the best in the world.”
  • [06:49] Kash Patel (reiterated): “We have Quantico, best lab in the world. I had a fixed-wing aircraft on the ground ready to move it immediately.”
• Potential Compromise of Evidence: As more hands handle evidence, chain of custody and sample integrity degrade.
  • [08:34] Joseph Scott Morgan: “The more hands evidence passes through… it becomes degraded. My biggest question… is was it ever compromised along the way?”

3. Consequences of Delay: Could Nancy Guthrie Have Been Saved?

• Time Lost = Lives Lost: Delay, confusion, and lack of FBI involvement may have significantly reduced the likelihood of a rescue.
  • [10:43] Nancy Grace: “The delay may have cost Nancy Guthrie her life. Delay, delay, delay. How long was she alive? She could still be alive.”
  • [11:14] Joseph Scott Morgan: “If they had secured this thing from Jump Street… could have gotten to this cloud earlier… That’s gone like a vapor.”

4. Disorganization & Poor Communication

• Conflicting Information & Inexperience: The Sheriff's Office provided contradictory accounts to the media and demonstrated a lack of coordination, including assigning a homicide sergeant with no prior experience.
  • [14:11] Alison Weiner: “He was just too reckless of a presence to ignore… providing conflicting information about timelines… included a sergeant with no experience investigating a homicide.”

5. Surveillance Footage and Missed Digital Evidence

• ‘Biggest Breakthrough’ Video Delayed: Google doorbell footage showing the possible perpetrator was only secured after FBI involvement — days after it could have been collected.
  • [19:55] Kash Patel: “The FBI worked with Google to put that image out… We could have gotten it days before.”
  • [21:46] Joseph Scott Morgan: “Here you have an individual approaching… so many things about this image… from gait to clothing to presentation of the weapon.”

6. Missed Physical Search Leads

• Unsearched Areas & Satellite Heat Signatures: A notable NASA satellite heat signature was detected — a potential search lead a mile from Nancy’s home — but never investigated due to physical barriers and bureaucratic inertia.
  • [28:24] Dave Mack: “Six days after Nancy Guthrie was kidnapped… NASA’s satellite picked up a clear, high-confidence heat signature… no one has searched to find out what it was.”
  • [30:40] Joseph Scott Morgan: “That heat signature doesn’t exist anymore. It’s gone at this moment in time. Any trail… has gone cold.”

7. Ignoring Crucial Street-Level Surveillance

• Underutilized Technology: Private drones and solar-powered cameras could have aided the search, but outside resources were not brought in quickly.
  • [35:00] Brian Fitzgibbons: “There were failures all along the way to bring in outside help… I don’t think it was the barbed wire that kept them out.”
  • [36:06] Steve Fisher: “With specialized drones… we can program them to search… and build a map out of that.”

8. Initial Dismissal of Foul Play

• Deemed a ‘Wander-Off’: Despite blood and family input, Sheriff Nanos initially insisted on treating it as a simple case of an elderly woman wandering away.
  • [38:22] Alison Weiner: “He actually had a press conference where… she had wandered off… despite the family saying she was non-ambulatory.”
  • [39:13] Savannah Guthrie: “She was in tremendous pain… On a good day, she could walk to the mailbox, but most days not. So there was no wander off.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [03:08] Nancy Grace: (on the FBI’s fixed-wing plane)
  “I don't know whether to cry, laugh, or go take all the air out of Nanos’ tires. I'm not sure which way I should go.”
• [08:34] Joseph Scott Morgan:
  “Pride cometh before the fall… was the DNA ever compromised along the way?”
• [10:43] Nancy Grace:
  “Let’s just be blunt. The delay may have cost Nancy Guthrie her life.”
• [11:14] Joseph Scott Morgan:
  “If they had frozen that scene, you could have done shoe lifts… That's gone like a vapor.”
• [15:44] Nancy Grace:
  “A delay is a defendant’s best friend. The canvassing needed to happen then, immediately.”
• [21:46] Joseph Scott Morgan:
  “How much would you have loved to have had a moving image of a perpetrator like this? Here you have an individual approaching… it’s forensic gold.”
• [27:25] Karen Stark:
  “He actually took a chance with somebody's life… because he was upset with the FBI.”
• [28:24] Dave Mack:
  “NASA’s satellite picked up a high confidence daytime heat signature… and nobody searched to find out what it was.”
• [39:13] Savannah Guthrie (on her mother’s condition):
  “On a good day, she could walk down to the mailbox… most days not. So there was no wander off. And the doors were popped open, and there was blood on the front doorstep and the ring camera had been yanked off.”

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Timeline of Important Segments

• [00:58] — Theme/music ends, Nancy introduces the case
• [02:18] — Kash Patel details FBI’s initial exclusion and key missed evidence
• [03:08] — Local lab sends DNA east, FBI sidelined
• [04:08] — Alison Weiner confirms the FBI’s exclusion, sheriff’s office missteps
• [08:34] — Joseph Scott Morgan on the risks and evidentiary chain of custody
• [10:43] — Nancy & Morgan: The life-and-death implications of delay
• [14:11] — Critique of Pima County’s conflicting public messaging
• [19:55] — Patel & Grace discuss pivotal video footage recovered after delay
• [21:46] — Scott Morgan extols value of the video evidence
• [28:24] — Dave Mack reveals unsearched heat signature zone
• [30:40] — Morgan: Lost time means lost clues
• [35:00] — Fitzgibbons & Fisher: Drone mapping could have aided the search
• [36:44] — Mack: Law enforcement’s removal of solar-powered cameras
• [38:22] — The family disputes “wander-off” explanation
• [39:13] — Savannah Guthrie gives emotional recall of her mother’s vulnerability

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Expert Panel

• Alison Weiner—Senior investigative reporter; "Murder in the Media" author
• Joseph Scott Morgan—Forensic professor and death investigator
• Kash Patel—FBI Director
• Brian Fitzgibbons—Director of Operations, USPA Nationwide Security
• Dave Mack—Crime Stories investigative reporter
• Steve Fisher—Private investigator, drone specialist
• Karen Stark—Renowned forensic psychologist
• Savannah Guthrie—NBC anchor, daughter of Nancy Guthrie

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Conclusions & Call to Action

Nancy and her expert guests unanimously believe that a combination of jurisdictional pride, inexperience, and poor early decision-making by Sheriff Nanos critically torpedoed the investigation and likely harmed any chance of finding Nancy Guthrie alive. They emphasize how delays compromised physical and digital evidence, how key search areas were ignored, and how collaboration with federal resources — available from day one — was spurned for political or personal reasons.

Nancy Grace’s final call:
If you have any tips, please call 800-225-5324. There is a $1.2 million reward for information leading to Nancy Guthrie’s whereabouts.

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Tone: Urgent, frustrated, relentless in seeking answers and accountability, empathetic to the victim’s family, and unafraid to call out institutional failures.

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

crime stories with Nancy Grace. Savannah Guthrie's mother Nancy Guthrie missing. Tonight, clash of the titans. A war between the gods. The FBI director Cash Patel versus Pima sheriff Nanos. How badly has nanos torpedoed the search for Nancy? As we discover a vast area near Nancy's home unsearched. Why? Sources reporting investigators shifting the hunt to a gray van. Why? And will solar powered cams reveal more video? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[Alison Weiner]

The stalkers came.

[Nancy Grace]

Cannot help but write about the relationship with the victim and the victim's families. This perpetrator had gleaned a lot about Nancy Guthrie's life. The perp likely has a criminal history.

[Interviewer]

I got frustrated because I knew from my sources they were trying to keep you guys out.

[Kash Patel]

They did.

[Interviewer]

They did keep you out.

[Kash Patel]

And look, here's.

[Interviewer]

Here's how time matters. In an investigation, the first 48 hours

[Kash Patel]

of anyone's disappearance are the most critical. And here's how these cases works. It is a state matter. It's a state and local law enforcement matter. What we, the FBI, do is say, hey, we're here to help. What do you need? What can we do? And for four days, we were kept out of the investigation. And when we were finally let in, Sean, look what we did. We went in and got the ring doorbell, and we said, hey, is anyone talking to Google? I called the leadership at Google and I said, look, we know that there was not a subscription service to capture all of the data that would have been captured had there been a subscription service. But can we go into the cache? Can we go into the data before it's deleted and see what we can find? That's why you have that image, because the FBI worked with Google to put that image out. Another thing we asked to do.

[Interviewer]

You guys got that tape, which was the biggest breakthrough during that case.

[Kash Patel]

We could have gotten it days before.

[Interviewer]

Now, the Pima county sheriff today responded to Cash's comments on our podcast saying the sheriff's department did immediately start coordinating with the bureau. Not buying it.

[Nancy Grace]

Nice try that from our friend Sean Hannity at Fox News and on his podcast hanging out with Sean Hannity where he has an incredible interview with Kash Patel. And I learned a lot. Straight out to Alison Weiner joining us, senior investigative reporter, author of a brand new book, murder in the Media. Hey, New York control room, let's see that book, murder in the Media. That's going to be a bestseller. Alison, thank you for being with us. I want to follow up on what Cash Patel was saying. It's stunning. We also learn he has a plane on standby. But let's take one thing at a time. What do you make of it?

[Alison Weiner]

I'm not buying it either. We were there. I was there with Brian Antin and we were in Arizona for, in Tucson for our of almost two months. And in the early days of that investigation, there was no FBI. He had that scene with just the sheriffs for four days. It wasn't until the fifth day when the FBI came in. Furthermore, in those first four days, in one of those days, they thought it was just a walk away and that she had just gone meandering despite the family saying that she didn't have cognitive issues and was not ambulatory. So I have to say that all the crime scene collection in those first four days, whatever they were doing before they released the crime scene, they released the crime scene before the FBI got in even.

[Kash Patel]

We have Quantico, best lab in the world. I had a, I had a fixed wing aircraft on the ground ready to move it immediately through the night.

[Interviewer]

Did they just say no?

[Kash Patel]

And they said we're sending it to Florida.

[Nancy Grace]

Amazing. Amazing. I don't know whether to cry, laugh or go take all the air out of nanos tires. I'm not sure which way I should go. That's from our friend Sean Hannity and his new podcast, hang out with Sean Hannity. Let me understand what I'm hearing, Alison. Kash Patel had a fixed wing aircraft on standby ready to take DNA taken from Mrs. Guthrie's home to Quantico to arguably the best lab in the world. And they were turned down. Did I hear that correctly, Allison?

[Alison Weiner]

I don't think they were even turned down. I think they didn't tell them that they had taken it to their own private lab until after the fact. And the private lab is in Florida. It's a good lab, but the basic fact is, is that the FBI lab is free and one of the best in the world. So I'm not quite sure about that. But actually, Nancy, there's even more. We learned that hrt, the hostage rescue team from Quantico, had flown in and was waiting at the Air Force. And when they did that run to Rio Rico, the SWAT team went to Rio Rico to look into a suspect there or potential suspect. They did not. They got there and they went there. The sheriff's team, SWAT team, local team, without even racing there before the HRT could get there, even though they were on standby as well. Some of the best guys and ladies in the business.

[Nancy Grace]

You're not kidding. Alison Weiner joining us. Brand new book, murder in the Media. Okay, let's hear this one more time. I want to hear specifically what Patel says.

[Kash Patel]

We have Quantico, best lab in the world. I had a. I had a fixed wing aircraft on the ground ready to move it immediately through the night.

[Interviewer]

Did they just say no?

[Kash Patel]

And they said we're sending it to Florida.

[Nancy Grace]

They just said, we're sending it to Florida. From our friend Sean Hannity. Hang out with Sean Hannity. Joining me now, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit podcast series Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. But for our purposes, he is a death investigator that has been to over 10,000 death scenes. And he's not just a talking head that blathers on and on with no experience. In fact, I first met him in a heated argument and when he was with the Fulton county medical examiner's office because I needed evidence then and it wasn't ready. Through no fault of his, I might add. That's how I met Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, did you hear what Patel said? And I agree with Hannity. I'm not buying it. Every turn, at every turn, the feds are being thwarted. And what does that mean? I don't care about some turf battle. I care about finding Nancy Guthrie. And tonight we're learning more and more about how nanos, let me just say technical legal phrase, screwed the pooch left, right. No matter what he was offered, he said no. What difference has it made that the feds were not allowed in and they did not take access of that fixed wing aircraft to get the DNA sent immediately? That from our friends at News 12.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Let's preach a little Bit, Nancy. Pride cometh before the fall. And that's what this is all about. And it's so critical in these moments when you can avail yourself of the services of the feds. You know, their abilities to what they can do are almost limitless. Think about how much money we dump into an organization like the FBI and what Patel was saying, relative to Quantico. It's what everybody else shoots for in the area of forensic science, relative to have those assets at your disposal. And for whatever reason, for whatever reason, they did not want to avail themselves of these opportunities. And the thing about it, Nancy, and you know a lot about chain of evidence, right? The more hands evidence passes through, okay, it becomes degraded, not just in the physical sense, you know, when you think about that. The sample, for instance, if you're talking about DNA, because it's very, very fragile, but also from chain of custody or the chain of evidence, relative to how many hands is it passing through before it's processed. Those little markers along the way kind of dictate the validity of. Of whatever your end game is. My biggest question about this case relative to DNA is was it ever compromised along the way? You know, when you send it to Florida, Right. And it's not in the same chain that the FBI uses. And I know that they avail themselves of other. Other services like Othram. They. You run the risk of really having a problem here. So, you know, looking back, and anybody can Monday morning quarterback it, but this isn't Monday morning, Nancy. The game is still on at this point in time. We have not seen any evidence of Mrs. Guthrie at this point. And this is critical. This is not like this thing's been adjudicated and we're sitting over coffee and we're talking about it or whatever the case.

[Nancy Grace]

Joseph, hold on just a moment. Let me understand what you're saying. You're saying that the delay may have cost. Let's just be blunt. The delay may have cost Nancy Guthrie her life. Delay, delay, delay. How long was she alive? She could still be alive. And I pray. I pray for a happy reunion for our friend Savannah Guthrie. But delay, delay, delay. That's what happened. And it could have cost her her life.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, you're absolutely right, because they didn't hop on this. The other thing, that they didn't hop on it. To Allison's point earlier about the security of the scene. If they had secured this thing from Jump Street, Nancy, okay, no, no pizza deliveries, no pool boys, all that. All that, that nonsense. If they had secured it, they would have gotten to this cloud earlier that contains this information and it could have gotten into the hands of people. And again, I don't want to beat this drum over and over again, but when we see those tiles there, they could have done electrostatic lifts on those. We actually see where this guy's putting his feet in this image right here. If they had frozen that scene, you could have done shoe lifts off of that. That's gone. That's gone like a vapor.

[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Alison Weiner joining us, investigative senior reporter, News Nation, author of new book Murder in the Media. Alison normally when prosecuting a case, putting together a case, discussing a case, analyzing a case, I rarely go into coulda, shoulda, woulda because frankly, it's a waste of time. You need to keep moving forward because every minute you delay, you're losing the possibility of preserving evidence or finding a witness or finding Nancy Guthrie. But I think it's worth noting how badly this torpedoed the case. In a nutshell, everything Joe Scott Morgan said was true. But simply put, the delay in the DNA, I mean, look, we still don't even have it. We still don't have it because of the delay, the caused by nanos. Who knows what a positive match could have meant in saving the life of Nancy Guthrie or finding her.

[Alison Weiner]

Alison, it's really, you know, at first we tried not to focus on the sheriff because we really wanted to focus on Nancy Guthrie. But he was just too reckless of a presence to ignore because he was providing even the media with conflicting Information about timelines about you know oh yeah my bad I opened up the scene to too soon. I wouldn't do that again. He there was an opportunity for FBI to come right in there and do evidence collection which is also you know what they know how to do. Instead he had inexperienced homicide investigators there including the sergeant who reportedly we've reported did not have from an insider inside of the investigation did not have a any experience investigating a homicide. So we have these guys and in the sheriff's office giving conflicting information to the public. They don't know for weeks that they should be looking at all of January preserve information on their ring cams because that wasn't also given out as information to the public. So I think I don't know what should have could have happened but I do know that the sheriff has a long standing animosity towards the FBI and that became apparent in terms of access what he told and what he didn't tell and I think to the detriment of the Guthrie family and finding Nancy Guthrie.

[Kash Patel]

I launched hundreds of agents and intel staff to Phoenix and Tucson just for this case just to be on standby.

[Dave Mack]

They didn't want to just to do

[Kash Patel]

the canvassing and we said we'll take

[Nancy Grace]

the DNA from our friends at Fox. That's Sean Hannity's new podcast hang out with Sean Hannity. Another thing to Brian Fitzgibbons guys Fitzgibbons is director of operations USPA Nationwide Security. He leads a team of expert investigators around the world. He leads them finding and extracting missing people specifically I'd like to point out often from Mexico which may come into play here. He is a former marine and an Iraqi war vet and I think that says it all. Brian Fitzgibbons, thank you for being with us tonight. Did you just hear Patel state I and I'm reading it verbatim. I launched hundreds of agents and intel staff to Phoenix and Tucson just for this case and it's just to do the canvassing. And we said look we'll take the DNA, we'll start canvassing. Brian a delay is a defendant's best friend. The canvassing needed to happen then immediately and not just the two next door neighbors all around the neighborhood getting video that maybe have has now been overridden questioning people about the night before. Like can you tell me what noises you heard a week ago in the middle of the night? Because I can't. If you ask me about last night, yes, I can tell you the the dog started barking at precisely 4am but if you ask Me, a week from now, I'm not going to know that anymore. All those agents on standby to find a missing person, gone. All that evidence, gone, Brian.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

And these issues, Nancy, with the DNA are the tip of the iceberg. Because here's the deal. This is where my mind went almost immediately. If that was the level of collaboration or the lack thereof, how much work was duplicated when the FBI did actually enter the scene five days later? Right. And what I mean by that is how much of this canvassing had already been done by Pima County? How much information was being shared between the agents from Pima county on the ground doing the investigation with the federal law enforcement agents. How much was done twice? How much time was wasted in those early days? And you're talking days five through 10, right, when the FBI first entered the scene. So, you know, this statement from Patel is very concerning.

[Nancy Grace]

And, you know, so far, Patel has kept quiet until Hannity got him to speak out and tell what he knows. But, you know, I want you to hear this because the faster you can get on the ground and start looking, the more likely you're going to solve the case. And at first, first, at the very beginning, this was treated as if Nancy Guthrie had just wandered off and must have fallen in a ditch. What a load of hot, stinking, steaming bs. Now listen to this, Fitz Gibbons.

[Kash Patel]

It is a state matter. It's a state and local law enforcement matter. What we, the FBI do is say, hey, we're here to help. What do you need? What can we do? And for four days, we were kept out of the investigation.

[Nancy Grace]

Four days. Four days. From our friend Sean Hannity at Hangout with Sean Hannity, his podcast, Four days. Brian, you can't get that back. As I always say, like when you got a missing child, every hour, 60 miles per hour at best, they're getting further and further and further away. In this case, same thing, Nancy Cuthbert getting further and further and further away while Nano's has his thumb up, as

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

you know what for Pima county to not have the agility to plan for bringing in these federal resources quickly on a high profile case like this. It just speaks to the political nature of the decision that Nano's made, that this is a long standing beef with the FBI and that he, Joe Scott Morgan said it best. Pride cometh before the fall. And this was a decision born out of pride that he wanted to be the one to solve this case.

[Kash Patel]

The FBI worked with Google to put that image out. Another thing we asked to do, you

[Interviewer]

guys got that tape which Was the biggest breakthrough during that case.

[Kash Patel]

We could have gotten it days before. We could have also maybe gotten more data had we been looking at it again.

[Nancy Grace]

From hang out with Sean Hannity the Google tape. Oh, Joe Scott Morgan Professor Forensics Can I tell you how valuable that video is? Let's see the porch guys. If we haven't seen it before and not just the day of, that's let's say yes, he's got the gun on right there. That is the night Nancy was stolen in the middle of the night. What if you woke up to see that in your face? I mean and then you know they hit her, you know, that's why she's bleeding on the front porch. Was she screaming? Was she crying out and they hit her. I think they hit her in the face. This 84 year old woman, Jo Scott, you met my mom. If someone hit her in the face it might just kill her for Pete's sake. But all those days, not only did Patel manage to get Google to dig that up like Lazarus rising from the grave, but then the other video that you and I went round and around and around chasing our tails and why doesn't he have a gun on in this video? I got into it with Dave Mack, our investigator from Crime stories who's joining us tonight who dared to suggest to me that the other porch video which we now know is from an earlier date was the perps twin the same night and that they were dressed alike. That said, that's the biggest break so far. Hannity's right. And they sat on it. If it hadn't been for Patel we wouldn't even have that.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Imagine all of the homicides that you've, that you have not just covered on the air but the ones that you prosecuted. Nancy, think about that just for a second. How much would you have loved to have had an image, a moving image of a perpetrator like this kind of frozen in time, that moment captured. How many cases have there been over the years where we had nothing bupkis. There was nothing out there to literally hang our hat on. Here you have an individual approaching and there's so many, there are so many things about this image, everything from gate to clothing that have forensic value, timing, all of these issues and not to mention the presentation of this weapon which by the way we've talked about this is in no way common somebody would wear presenting in, in, in this format. A weapon like this. What's the purpose of it? Was it for intimidation? Was it for what they perceived as easy access? I have no idea. Was perhaps she struck with that weapon? Was she. What's called buffaloing, you know, where you strike somebody in the face with a weapon like that? I don't, I don't know. I know that. Looking at the blood that was out there, I see expirate there. Not aspirate, it's expirate where you have blood that is being, coming out of the nasopharynx area where somebody's blowing out, coming from the nose, the mouth, and then you have those free falling drops right there. Do you realize, I'm not saying this necessarily to you, but do people realize how fragile that evidence is? The mat that was not collected, you know, for all of that blood that you see right there that's deposited on those tiles, do you realize how much evidence would have been on that black mat itself? We, I don't know. We'll never know. Right. Because it's been compromised at this point in time. And that's the real. That's one of the real tragedies about this.

[Nancy Grace]

Hey, look at this, Joe Scott. It's past the porch and actually goes down the front walk. This is my friends at FOX News Digital. We know that Nancy Guthrie was struck in the face. Based on this evidence and what the blood evidence reveals, it's aspirate. Aspirate is when you aspirate, you breathe out blood. Also, it appears to be in a satellite positioning. Give me a close up on that, please. And what that means is she's standing still long enough to have one blood drop and then blood drops around that without her. See those at the front right and behind it? She's likely standing there and dripping blood down. That's a saddle, what we call a satellite pattern. All this said, the delay may have cost Nancy Guthrie her life. Back to Allison Weiner joining us, senior investigative reporter, author of a new book, Murder in the Media. It seems as if focus is shifting to the hunt of a gray van. What do you know, Allison?

[Alison Weiner]

Well, I, I've heard that, but they haven't seemed to be able to pick up that van past that little bit of video that we had. I will tell you in terms of searching that area, that the only search we saw of that area was in the couple of days following Nancy's abduction. And it was some helicopters, but it was basically around the home and just in a very small area. There's a lot of ways in and out of the Catalina foothills. And that search didn't encompass that. It didn't also encompass the nearby desert, which is has a road Straight to Mexico. I actually went out there with a former SW Beneficial and I have to say that they didn't really get a chance to look at that freshly in the first couple of days either. And finally going back to the point of how many agents the FBI had provided, there were about 600, I think of Pima county officers available and hundreds and thousands of FBI agents that were sent and they were not used. It's crazy.

[Nancy Grace]

In early February, neighbors reported a suspicious van in the area just before Nancy Guthrie went missing. A separate distinct gray silver Range Rover was then towed after a traffic stop, indicating a distinct interest in a gray van or suv. There was an investigation focused by Pima county on analyzing footage and neighbors were actually asked about the existence of a gray van. Now this video is from our friend Crystal's crime board. Karen Stark joining us, forensic psychologist, renowned TV and radio trauma expert and [e-mail] Karen, there's more to come, but I wanted you to hear some of the evidence that has been delayed or even lost because of nanos refusal to let the feds step in.

[Karen Stark]

It's somebody who believes that he can do this himself no matter what's available to him. Took a chance. He actually took a chance with somebody's life because he had approved this point that he could do it because he was upset with the FBI. And it's playing out in front of everybody how ridiculous and mean and scary it is that he did not take action and get all the help available to him so that this woman could possibly be found as quickly as possible. They always talk about the first 48 hours. Where was he? How could he not pay attention to that? Because of his own self interest. And that's exactly what happened.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to Dave Mack joining us, crime stories investigative reporter Dave, what can you tell me about a huge swath of land near Nancy Guthrie's home that has not been searched?

[Dave Mack]

This is an area that we're talking a mile to a mile and a half away from Nancy Guthrie's home. It is an area that is fenced off because it is a water processing facility. Okay. It's called the Tucson water municipal property, totally gated. You can't go in. Civilians enter. It's a felony. But Nancy, six days after Nancy Guthrie was kidnapped on February 7th, NASA's firm satellite this firms it is a free information for resource management system. All right. This is some satellite that actually maps platforms providing real time imagery of heat signatures, hotspot data in particular in areas like the Tucson water municipal property at 10:57, 10:58am On February 7, NASA's firm satellite picked up a clear, high confidence daytime heat signature at a very precise coordinate on the Tucson water municipal property, again a mile from Nancy's home. The area is gated and locked. But Nancy, the area where this heat signature came from is at the top of a hill leading down to an arroyo that has scrub brush, small trees and things like that. But the heat signature was there, not near the municipal pipe. You know, pipes for water and everything else. We're talking in a land area that is going uphill, dirt, trees, things like that, or shrubs, rather. So this heat signature, Nancy, on February 7th was out of the ordinary, not something that normally happens and it hasn't been searched. This is a mile from Nancy Guthrie's home. A heat signature at 10:57 in the morning, and nobody searched to find out what it was.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, professor, forensics and death investigator, explain the impact of what Dave Mack has just reported.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Imagine grains of sand, you know, that are falling with every moment. You're losing valuable time here. Guess what? That heat signature doesn't exist anymore. It's gone at this moment in time. And any trail that might lead to some kind of information that would be critical relative to the status of Mrs. Guthrie, that trail has gone cold at this point in time. So that leaves us wondering what in the world, what in the world would we do, you know, as far as seeking her out now, because that, that is precious time. And this, this case, Nancy, all hinges on time, doesn't it? Response times? You know, it seems like that the people involved in this from jump street have a bit of disorganization and, let's face it, lethargy. They didn't prioritize this case the way that they should have. And for me, you know, when I'm analyzing this, they're not, they have not prioritized Mrs. Guthrie's missing status. Really wonder how this plays into other cases with not so elevated persons, let's say, for instance, in this jurisdiction, you know, who, who, who else, you know, who else is out there that's suffering that have missing family members or crimes that have gone unsolved? And you look back at this right here, and this is a glaring example of problems. I'm just hoping that they're going to be able to address these problems. I'm not really, really hopeful. I got to tell you, Nancy, about Ms. Guthrie's status right now. And that lies, that lies at the feet of those that are in charge

[Nancy Grace]

of an investigation Nancy, that from our friends at News.

[Child]

Mom, can I have Lingokids? Dad, Lingokids, please.

[Parent 1]

When did we become the Lingokids house?

[Alison Weiner]

No idea.

[Nancy Grace]

Last week it was dinosaurs.

[Child]

This week it's Lingokids.

[Parent 1]

Why Lingokids?

[Child]

Because it's the best thing ever. You can play games with astronauts, wild animals and superheroes.

[Dave Mack]

With more than 4,000 interactive games, songs and shows, LingoKids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids.

[Nancy Grace]

So no dinosaurs and dinosaurs, rainbow cakes, everything kids love.

[Parent 1]

Download it for free.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dave Mack. Explain to me where exactly that heat signature was.

[Dave Mack]

It was in the. In the Tucson municipal water cordoned off area about a mile, mile and a half from Nancy Guthrie's home. I mentioned, Nancy, that this is a very large area, a huge, as you've called it, a huge swath of land that is cordoned off, it is gated, it's locked, barbed wire at the top, and no civilians are allowed in. But this is only a mile, mile and a half from Nancy Guthrie's home. Six days after she is stolen in the middle of the night. A heat signature, exact position.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, I'm curious, you know, Joe, Scott Morgan, you mentioned that that evidence is now gone. To Brian Fitzgibbons joining us, Director Operations, USPA Nationwide security. How valuable would that be in a search for a missing person? You've got this giant swath of land very close to Nancy Guthrie's home. Out of the blue, an elevated heat signature indicating a living creature, not a dead creature, a living creature, and it wasn't pursued. Now, is it because the land was surrounded by barbed wire? You know what, where I grew up, a lot of pastures full of cows were surrounded by barbed wire. We just went over them or under them. It's not hard. So a barbed wire fence is stopping Pima sheriffs from searching, and you've got this elevated heat signature popping up in the middle of it and nothing's done.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah. I have to think that what you're seeing here is issues with triaging these data points. You know, in that close proximity to Mrs. Guthrie's home. You would think that this would be followed up very quickly. And I'll add one thing here. Private investigator Steve Fisher, who's been many times a guest of this show, did a great job explaining a few months ago, drone technology that's available that can quickly grid search these expansive areas and stitch together effectively. It looks almost like a satellite map, but it's taken by drone, something like that, tying in an external resource that quickly, you know, there were failures all along the way to bring in outside help to do things like that. So it was just a, you know, I don't think it was the barbed wire that kept them out. I think it was an inability to effectively work with anybody outside of Pima County.

[Nancy Grace]

Ryan, Fitz, Gibbons, you're absolutely right. Take a listen to Steve Fisher.

[Steve Fisher]

So what we can do with these specialized drones, and these are enterprise drones, these are not regular consumer drones, is we can, we can program them to search or to fly certain search grids and whatnot. And so we do is the drone flies these lines that we define and then when it's complete, we have a photography of, we have imagery of this whole area and then we can do is we can actually build a map out of that, stitch those together and then actually search the map.

[Nancy Grace]

Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter what can you tell me about solar powered cameras and what, if anything, they may yield?

[Dave Mack]

Nancy, the one thing we know about these solar powered cameras and devices is that we watched as the law enforcement removed one of the solar powered devices and wired camera from the roof. If you remember, it was around February 6th into the investigation, seven days in. And we know that these solar powered cameras and other electronics, you know, they're, they're not attached to the grid. So whatever is being run and recorded by these cameras would be saved. It's not part of any kind of grid. So it doesn't matter if you cut all the wires in town. These things are independently powered.

[Nancy Grace]

Nancy, a white female, 84 years of age, 5C, medium build, primer, blue things after 2200 hours, positive yesterday. Nancy has high blood pressure, pacemaker and cardiac issues. Allison Weiner joining us, senior investigative reporter and author of a new book, Murder in the Media. Allison, is it true that even though the family of Nancy Guthrie said this isn't right, the camera's dislodged, there's blood on the front porch. She didn't just wander away at the get go. Nanose insisted on treating this as a case where an elderly individual simply wandered off.

[Alison Weiner]

Yes, and I think that's what they were used to dealing with there. He actually had a press conference where that's exactly what he said, that this, you know, she had wander off or looking for her. And there were, at that time the family was inside the house, there were other officers inside the house and they all went searching around to see if they could find Nancy. So again, you have like evidence disruption. You have them looking and wasting, I mean not wasting, but not spending the time and not seemingly being Able to put together the fact that there's blood on the porch and a trail of blood on the porch, so maybe she didn't just walk away. And also the fact that the family said she was non ambulatory. And we heard Savannah say that in a press conference that she barely could make it to the mailbox most days.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And my sister called me and I said, is everything okay? And she said, no. She said, mom's missing. And I said, what?

[Nancy Grace]

What are you talking about?

[Savannah Guthrie]

She said, she's gone. She must have had like some kind of medical episode in the night. And that somehow, you know, the paramedics had come. I started calling the hospitals and the police were there and talking to her at the same time, and it was just chaos. My mom, her. She was in tremendous pain. Her back was very bad. You know, she was trying to. On a good day, she could walk down to the mailbox and get the mail, but most days not. So there was no wander off. And the doors were popped open.

[Nancy Grace]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And there was blood on the front doorstep and the ring camera had been yanked off.

[Kash Patel]

Yeah.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And so we were saying this is.

[Parent 1]

Do something.

[Savannah Guthrie]

This is not okay. Yeah, this isn't. Something is very wrong here.

[Nancy Grace]

That from our friends at YouTube today, that is Savannah describing what happened immediately when she realized her mom was missing and that authorities were told she did not wander off. Look at the front porch. Look at the door cam. Yet it was pursued for who knows how long as a wander off by an elderly. The question tonight is how badly has the state's investigation been torpedoed by the unfortunate misjudgments and delays at the very beginning of the case? Can it be fixed? Did it cost Nancy Guthrie her life? Is there a way for her to be brought home alive? If you know or think you know anything about Mrs. Guthrie's disappearance, please dial toll free 800-225-5324. Repeat, 800-225-5324. If you wish to remain anonymous. 520-8827-4635 208-827-4663. There is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward on the table for information leading to the whereabouts of Nancy Guthrie. $1.2 million. And remember, a conviction, even an arrest, is not required for you to collect the reward. $1.2 million in reward. We remember an American hero, Trooper Andrew Wallace, Tennessee highway patrol, killed in the line of duty after 14 years, leaving behind devastated parents Tom and Wendy and grieving girlfriend Cindy. American hero, trooper Andrew Wall. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye. This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.