CONFESSIONS, DNA & GRANDPA’S RIFLE, EVIDENCE MOUNTS IN CHARLIE KIRK SHOOTING, JUDGE RULES

Summary

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: Confessions, DNA & Grandpa’s Rifle: Evidence Mounts in Charlie Kirk Shooting, Judge Rules
Date: September 30, 2025
Host: Nancy Grace
Key Guests: Sydney Sumner, Candace Owens (via commentary), Sky Lazaro, Chris McDonough, Tracy Brown, Allison Paganelli, Hermania Rodriguez, Dr. Priya Banerjee

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Overview

Nancy Grace delivers a charged breakdown of the ever-expanding case against Tyler Robinson, accused of assassinating media figure Charlie Kirk on a university campus. The episode unpacks mounting evidence—including confessional texts, DNA, and the use of a family rifle—while dissecting the defense’s million-dollar strategy and explosive conspiracy theories swirling through media and online platforms. The panel of legal, forensic, and investigative experts parse both hard facts and viral misinformation as Judge Tory Graf upholds principles of fairness amidst public furor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Case Evidence & Main Events

• Shooting Overview [01:51–02:08]:
  • Witnesses describe a single shot, hitting Kirk in the neck and causing instant fatality.

    Chris McDonough: “Blood was starting to gush out of his neck and it hit him in the carotid artery and that caused a bleed out almost immediately.” [02:00]

• Suspect Behavior & Evidence [39:26, 40:14]:
  • Robinson stayed in the area post-shooting to recover his grandfather’s rifle, the likely murder weapon.
  • His communications show a focus on retrieving evidence tying him to the crime.

    Hermania Rodriguez: “Tyler Robinson was hyper focused in getting that rifle and he knew it was the major thing tying him to the crime and that's why he remained in the area trying to retrieve it.” [40:54]

• Text Messages & DNA:
  • Messages between Robinson and his roommate show premeditation (“Go under my keyboard... and get rid of this piece of paper that says, hey, I'm going to have a chance to shoot Charlie Kirk and I'm going to take it.” [41:41])
  • DNA evidence and video surveillance further implicate Robinson.

2. Conspiracy Theories & Social Media Influence

• Texts Authored by the FBI? [03:10–06:28]:
  • Candace Owens and others claim that Robinson’s confession texts were faked by the FBI to frame him.

    Candace Owens: "These text messages are part of an FBI cover up and an FBI agent without a modicum of intelligence wrote those text messages." [03:40]

  • Mainstream commentators and defense attorneys label this implausible and damaging.

    Sky Lazaro: “Any defense attorney in their right mind would Likely not claim that the texts were sent by the FBI because there's just too much knowledge in those texts that nobody else would know all those details other than the sender.” [06:29]

• Impact on Jury & Trial [07:11–09:59]:
  • The prevalence of such theories may taint the jury pool and threaten the fairness of the trial.

    Nancy Grace: “It's overwhelming. Yes, I'm angry. I am angry. All the make believe and pretend theories that are out there as to who assassinated Charlie Kirk in cold blood, now a rogue FBI agent did it.” [08:22]

• Social Media’s Role [20:04, 20:34]:
  • Widespread meme culture and non-journalistic sources amplify speculation and misinformation.

    Hermania Rodriguez: “This case has been completely riddled by conspiracy theories that have really emerged on social media, particularly on X.” [20:04]

• Jury Management Challenges [22:45–23:23]:
  • Ensuring impartiality grows more difficult as jurors might secretly engage with online conspiracies.

3. Defense Strategy & Public Funding [31:53–32:53]:

• Robinson is receiving a million-dollar taxpayer-funded defense involving prominent attorneys, as is his right in a death penalty case.

  Nancy Grace: “Is it true... the defense has already been given carte blanche? A million dollar defense. They've already been given a million dollars out of my wallet.” [31:08] Sydney Sumner: “The county hires three attorneys on Robinson's behalf. The team led by Katherine Nestor... with more than 33 years of defense experience.” [32:24]

4. Courtroom Developments & Judge’s Position

• Judge Tory Graf’s Statement [25:50–27:33]:
  • Judge affirms protections of both defendant’s and victims’ rights, and pledges impartiality.

    Judge Graf (via Sydney Sumner): “He sits before this court presumed innocent... Victims are entitled under our Constitution to be treated with fairness, respect, and dignity... Justice demands that both of these principles... be honored without compromise.” [25:50]

  • Robust security measures and a public trial despite the charged atmosphere.

    Hermania Rodriguez: “This case has caused so much commotion around the world and the country and people wanted to show up to this hearing, even though, as you mentioned, we didn't even see Tyler Robinson on the video.” [28:16]

5. Behavioral & Forensic Analysis

• Body Language [35:43–38:53]:
  • Robinson exhibited an unnerving calm and lack of nervousness during police encounters and post-crime.

    Tracy Brown: “Missing... is two things. One, nervousness. So he may not have a response to trauma and that can indicate like that... what he allegedly did was okay... He keeps his hands in his pockets, actually puts his thumbs in his pockets, which is framing his manhood there.” [36:00] Tracy Brown: “It's a power play is what it is. And so he. He's different.” [37:36]

  • This behavior is echoed in professional opinions about post-crime conduct and lack of empathy.

    Allison Paganelli: “Disconnected to what you've done. I see that all the time in killers because people aren't real to them. They're objects.” [43:27]

• Autopsy & Medical Evidence [45:11–47:42]:
  • The official autopsy report is still pending; delays are procedural and due to toxicity screens, not cover-ups.

    Dr. Priya Banerjee: “... even if the autopsy is completed, the exam, the report is very detailed. There's other studies that need to be done, like toxicology... especially with an ongoing investigation.” [47:00]

6. Escalating Theories and Far-Fetched Accusations

• Targeting Kirk’s Widow [47:42–48:59]:
  • Wild accusations are leveled even at Kirk's grieving wife, including claims she’s an Israeli spy.

    Nancy Grace: "They won't even leave his widow alone. ... Are there also theories that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ordered the hit and that Erica is actually an Israeli spy named Honeypot?" [48:59] Sydney Sumner: "Yes, unfortunately, that is a rumor that is going around that just gets a 'Whoa, really?' reaction from me..." [48:59]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On conspiracies muddying the water:

  Nancy Grace: “All these conspiracy theories have gone wild and basically the defense can sit back and pick and choose which crazy, zany conspiracy theory they're going to present to the jury. They don't even have to come up with a trial strategy. The online sleuths are doing it for them.” [06:28]

• On why criminals write incriminating messages:

  Sky Lazaro: “I wish none of my clients ever wrote anything down. But that is not the reality.” [15:36] Nancy Grace: “Yes they would. Because they're not that smart. Sky, why do you think the federal and the state jails are so full? Because they're idiots.” [15:41]

• On the difficulty of managing conspiracies in the digital age:

  Chris McDonough: “I mean, and you know more than anybody being in that courtroom, to hear craziness like this, I mean, this is just irresponsible right now...” [09:59]

• Judge Graf’s Reassurance:

  Judge Graf (via Sydney Sumner): “I will not put my finger on scale of justice. These proceedings will be open to the public, conducted in accordance with the law and handled with diligence and competence to ensure that justice is never compromised.” [30:37]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:51] -- Eyewitness & forensic descriptions of Kirk’s shooting
• [03:10] -- Introduction of FBI-authored text theory
• [06:28] -- Legal breakdown of conspiracy theories in defense
• [09:59] -- Law enforcement’s pushback on conspiracy claims
• [15:36] -- Expertise on criminals writing incriminating texts
• [22:45] -- Challenges of ensuring a fair, untainted jury
• [25:50] -- Judge Graf’s ruling, security measures [courtroom excerpt]
• [31:53] -- Public funding for Robinson’s defense
• [35:43] -- Body language analysis of suspect’s demeanor
• [39:26] -- Suspect’s behavior post-shooting, concern with evidence
• [45:11] -- Delay in autopsy report and impacts
• [47:42] -- Conspiracies targeting Kirk’s widow

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Brief Conclusion

Nancy Grace and her panel expose the depth and danger of conspiracy theories now permeating the Charlie Kirk murder case, dissecting both legal strategy and public hysterics. Despite the swirl of misinformation, the hard evidence—digital, physical, and forensic—strengthens the state’s case against Robinson. The show ends with a warning to avoid amplifying unfounded rumors as both sides—and a national audience—await further courtroom developments.

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For further reference and clarity, timestamps have been provided for locating core content within the episode.

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an I Heart podcast.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The Charlie Kirk shooting suspects million dollar defense and we're paying for it. This as the defendant claims no one was in danger. Really? His family insisting he's never set foot on the campus anyway and that it's not him caught on. Okay, who should I believe? You or my lying eyes? Does it all boil down to this? Confessions, DNA and grandpa's rifle. The evidence stacking up. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[Sydney Sumner]

It's about two minutes in when the shot was fired. All witnesses are reporting that all they heard was a single shot that was fired.

[Nancy Grace]

That he reached up to his neck.

[Chris McDonough]

And blood was starting to gush out of his neck and it hit him in the carotid artery and that caused a bleed out almost immediately.

[Nancy Grace]

The Charlie Kirk shooting suspect court appearance yesterday. He did not show his face. This as we hear his roommate, his romantic partner apparently laying low even in a safe house. You know Charlie Kirk didn't have that opportunity, did he? This as the suspect's family also laying low. But tonight we are learning some family members insisted. What? What? He's never set foot on the campus before. Okay, I guess all the cameras are lying. So what does that mean? It's not him we see on the video. So much happening. Straight out to Sydney Sumner, crime stories investigative reporter. How is. How are certain family members claiming that he, the suspect, never has been on that campus? How is that happening? Am I supposed to ignore what he said in the text to his romantic partner roommate?

[Candace Owens]

According to Candace Owens, you are supposed to ignore those texts because they were authored by FBI agents and not Tyler Robinson to land.

[Nancy Grace]

Stop.

[Candace Owens]

Sorry.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm sorry. My earpiece must not be working correctly because I thought for sure. Sidney Sumner, I heard you say that there is a theory that all the text that the alleged shooter sent his romantic partner roommate were actually written by the FBI. Did you say that?

[Candace Owens]

I didn't. Candace Owens did on her stream yesterday afternoon. So she took the step further. We've already heard rumors that Gen Zers are saying, you know, I've never heard a 22 year old talk like that over text message. This is really weird. And she came out and made that accusation yesterday that these text messages are part of an FBI cover up and an SBI agent without a modicum of intelligence wrote those text messages.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, so the FBI agent was in on the whole thing that it was the grandpa's long gun and he couldn't, he, the alleged shooter couldn't retrieve it and was caught on cam and a dairy Queen waiting to go back into the trees and bushes to get his gun. So the FBI agent that this conservative influencer is talking about, what is clairvoyant, he was in on the whole thing or what did he plant the gun to? This from Candace Owens. Sydney, help me out. What is she claiming?

[Candace Owens]

Well, Nancy, so they're claiming, Owens is claiming that these text messages include every single detail that police had tracking Tyler Robinson up until the point that he was arrested. So we're hearing reports now from law enforcement sources that Robinson actually had a run in with police near UVU campus the evening after the shooting and they believe he was trying to make a move to retrieve that rifle. Now law enforcement already had the rifle in their possession. They already knew what model it was. They already knew that it had a big $2,000 scope on it. So Owens is pointing out that these text messages include every single detail of the planning of the shooting, of the rifle that was used in the shooting. And that feels a little bit suspicious. She finds that odd that this 30.

[Nancy Grace]

Right there. So now here we go. The floodgates are open. I haven't even gotten to the hearing that went down yesterday. And what, if anything, it means to the defense and the state. We are bombarded by these insane theories that the FBI secretly wrote all the texts from Robinson, the alleged shooter, to his roommate, his romantic partner, Lance Twigs. Okay, Sky Lazaro joining me, state and federal criminal defense attorney with Ray Quinney and Neubecker. Sky, just take off your defense hat one moment if that's possible.

[Sky Lazaro]

I can do it.

[Nancy Grace]

This is fodder for the defense. It's complete fodder. Now, any defense attorney in their right mind would Likely not claim that the texts were sent by the FBI because there's just too much knowledge in those texts that nobody else would know all those details other than the sender. But that said, this is muddying the water for the state. All these conspiracy theories have gone wild and basically the defense can sit back and pick and choose which crazy, zany conspiracy theory they're going to present to the jury. They don't even have to come up with a trial strategy. The online sleuths are doing it for them.

[Sky Lazaro]

I couldn't agree more. I, you know, in this case, this is the best thing that can happen. Because if you got a jury pool is fighting with each other about conspiracy theories or this happened or this didn't happen, I mean, that's the best thing that can happen to you.

[Nancy Grace]

I want to actually see her face. Sky Lazaro has won a lot of cases, but I want to see her face. Did you just say, with apparently a straight face, that the defense could blame the government for Charlie Kirk's assassination? No, no, no. This FBI agent really did it.

[Sky Lazaro]

No defense attorney is going to do that. That's not going to happen. It's not going to happen in this case. What my point was is when you have a jury pool, who's out there, who's getting all of this information and hearing this from different platforms, and I think, you know, Candace Owens had millions of viewers yesterday, people believe that stuff.

[Nancy Grace]

And if you have, if you have.

[Sky Lazaro]

A jury pool that is divided on whether or not the government had a hand in this or covered it up or something else, I mean, that's, that's a transfer jury nullification somewhere along the way.

[Nancy Grace]

Chris McDonough. Chris McDonough helped me. Look, I know that some of these wild claims which we're about to hear or zany, but when I'm sitting in the prosecutor's chair and I've got Charlie Kirk's widow sitting behind me waiting for me to somehow wave a magic wand and make it all turn out right, and you are confronted with theories like was being thrown out right now, polluting the jury pool. It's overwhelming. Yes, I'm angry. I am angry. All the make believe and pretend theories that are out there as to who assassinated Charlie Kirk in cold blood, now a rogue FBI agent did it. It's. You can't laugh at all, Chris. As tempting as it is, McDonough is a former homicide investigator. He worked vice, he's worked every angle for the state. He's now the star of the interview room on YouTube, Director of the Cold Case Foundation. Chris, this is not a joke. This is real. You get one nut jar. Look, look, look at O.J. simpson. Really? People really believe the police could hold it together and create a conspiracy? That's total bs. Same thing here.

[Chris McDonough]

Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. I mean, and you know more than anybody being in that courtroom, to hear craziness like this, I mean, this is just irresponsible right now. I mean, the fact that you have this allegation that you know, some other dude that is law enforcement, the government, whoever, you know, had set this kid up, it's, you know, some gigantic conspiracy, et cetera.

[Nancy Grace]

Him up. What kid are you talking about?

[Chris McDonough]

Well, what are we talking about?

[Nancy Grace]

Is there somehow a middle school shooter? I mean, I don't know. What kid are you talking about?

[Chris McDonough]

Well, you know we're talking about Tyler Robinson, right? I mean, and by the way, I interviewed the Undertaker.

[Nancy Grace]

He's no kid.

[Chris McDonough]

Well, well, I agree with you, but you know, he's also not the smartest tool in the shed. Even though he has an IQ that's extremely high. The fact that he's left all the evidence behind him and in front of him, by the way, this, I think this is part of the play somewhere from somebody.

[Nancy Grace]

The fact that the conspiracy theories are going to make a lot of hay out of what you said just then about leaving evidence out. They're going to claim it was planted. And I don't want to hear another word about he's too, too dumb to pull it off. This guy won a forty, nearly forty thousand dollar scholarship. Control room, please pull that video up. Do I have to convince McDonough again? For Pete, Listen.

[Sydney Sumner]

To receive the resident Presidential Scholarship from Utah State University. The value of this scholarship is approximately $32,000. This scholarship is available for four years or eight semesters.

[Chris McDonough]

Yeah, well the state saved a lot of money on that one.

[Nancy Grace]

Yeah, all that opportunity, all that advantage. And what did he do? What were you saying about the undersherif?

[Chris McDonough]

Well, I interviewed the undersheriff and he confirmed that everything that is being said online is not true. First of all, Tyler Robinson's father was not in law enforcement. It was his friend. And that's still being projected out there. Second, he did turn himself into the jail with a friend of his who was retired law enforcement. That's not a conspiracy, that's facts.

[Podcast Advertiser]

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Chris McDonough, you know what? You're branching out into even more conspiracy theories. And normally I would chastise you for getting off the point, but you're right. Another conspiracy theory. And let's take a look at the source of some of the conspiracy theories.

[Candace Owens (continued commentary)]

Any person with a modicum of intelligence is going to go, I'm not going to put this down in writing with every detail. And apparently whoever offered those messages, likely feds, didn't have a modicum of intelligence. The family says that the photo of the young man that is coming up the stairs, which was shared, that blurry image is definitively not Tyler Robinson. And when I put together what I'm being told by Lance's family and what I'm hearing from the Robinson family through a third party, I will say that it matches. It kind of seems like they're agreeing. One family's going, hey, Lance is kind of evil. Why is he getting, why is he getting cleared? The other one's going, tyler's not this guy.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, I really don't know where to start with that big, steaming, stinky crock of BS I just heard. That is from Candace Owens. Let's just break it down very quickly and then maybe we can actually get to the facts, the real facts, the hard evidence about what is happening. Now. First of all, any person with a modicum of intelligence is going to go, I'm not going to put this all down in writing, every detail. And whoever authored those messages, like the feds don't have a modicum of intelligence. Okay, I was a Fed for three years before I became a felony prosecutor in Superior Court. So as a former Fed, I don't appreciate that very much. But that said, I'm very, very curious. Straight make out to Sky Lazzaro joining us, veteran trial lawyer in both the state and federal criminal systems. That is a really long stretch to claim. Hey, the defendant would never put so many details in his text bs. Yes, they would. Because they're not that smart. Sky, why do you think the federal and the state jails are so full? Because they're idiots.

[Sky Lazaro]

I wish none of my clients ever wrote anything down. But that is not the reality.

[Nancy Grace]

No, it's not. And also, let's talk about this to Tracey Brown joining us. You guys know Tracy very well, body language expert and author of how to Detect Lies, Fraud and identity theft. She's bodylanguagetrainer.com Tracy, please. When you think that you are texting with your romantic partner, you say a lot more than you would say to other people, right?

[Tracy Brown]

I think you do because there's a very deep trust there. I would say. One of the things that concerned me when I saw this was the perfect punctuation in capitalization. And it didn't seem age appropriate to me. So either he's so smart that he's not tuned into his generation or something else has. Has taken over.

[Nancy Grace]

It's.

[Tracy Brown]

It's very odd.

[Nancy Grace]

Put her up. Just so you know, Tracy, both of my twins text non stop to me and their punctuation is always perfect. Do they really? Oh, wow. Okay. Yes. Really? Yeah. So reality check. Another thing. To Allison Paganelli joining us, forensic psychologist, esteemed forensic psychologist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Allison Paganelli, thank you for being with us. Allison, when you are writing someone that you trust and that you love, that you're romantic with, very often you lower your guard and you say things you wouldn't normally say to anybody else. Isn't that true?

[Sky Lazaro]

Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

I like that. Short and sweet. Yes. Another thing regarding this conspiracy theory that the FBI really wrote the text and not the defendant, The FBI would have to be clairvoyant in some way to know all the details about grandpa's long gun and how he was trying to go back and retrieve it. And so much more contained in those texts from Tyler Robinson to his roommate.

[Sky Lazaro]

Yes, they would be overly involved. If this were the conspiracy that Candace Owens says it is, then that would mean that the FBI was, you know, tracking Mr. Robinson, knew of weapons that he had.

[Nancy Grace]

Allison, hold on just a moment. Tracking Mr. Robinson, more like setting him up because they. If the FBI is responsible, then they would have been responsible for the shooting and for setting it up and for framing him. I mean, this goes a lot deeper than faking a few texts. So you would have to believe that the FBI was in on this from the get go. Do you really believe that? Because I find it to be a fantastical farce. Do I believe that that's what happened?

[Sky Lazaro]

No, I don't. To me, it would be far fetched for the FBI to pick Tyler Robinson out of many, many males and females who are online talking about various political things. He's a 22 year old, allegedly really intelligent. He got the scholarship, it would seem to me. Yeah, like I said, pretty far fetched for them to just pick him out and decide we're going to frame this guy and we're going to send all these texts with all the details. It's just, it would have had to have been pre planned for a long period of time and I just don't.

[Nancy Grace]

Think that's a plausible theory. It's not plausible. Hermania Rodriguez now joining us, chief US reporter with Hermonia. Thank you for being with us. So, you know, now that we're hashing out this is just one conspiracy theory that the FBI really wrote the text. I haven't even gotten to what happened in court. Hermonia, where is this coming from, this theory? And another thing I heard Owen's claim is that the families are saying the defendant is innocent. Of course they are. They always say that. How often do you see the mother of. And by the way, these are. This is the family that convinced him to turn himself in. All right, now claiming, yeah, that's not him in the picture. This is. Where's this coming from?

[Hermania Rodriguez]

This case has been completely riddled by conspiracy theories that have really emerged on social media, particularly on X. A lot you talked about people saying that the text messages do not sound how a gen Zer would speak. We saw a lot of memes being.

[Nancy Grace]

Done about this Hermionia. Have you noticed that everybody talking about how a Gen Z' er would speak is not a Gen Z er? Okay, so consider the source on that. Go ahead, please. Correct.

[Hermania Rodriguez]

This was all speculation based on nothing specific. But then we start seeing this same conspiracies emerge from Candace Owens show. Now, it's important to remember that Candace Owens is not a typical journalist. She claims that she's been speaking to the family of Tyler Robinson who allegedly claims that that's not their son involved. However, we don't really have evidence about this. She's not saying which people she's speaking to. She actually mentioned the clip that you showed that she's talking to them through a third person. So a lot of what Candace Owens is saying on her show seems to lead to other of the conspiracy theories that she has been peddling about Charlie Kirk and who would have want have him gone according to her, you know.

[Nancy Grace]

Another Issue to Sky Lazaro, joining his veteran trial lawyer out of the Utah jurisdiction. Sky so much of it is fantastical, but when you see the 12 in the box, you don't know what they're really thinking. I mean, I would try to get as up close and personal to each juror as I could without getting reprimanded by the judge. And I mean physically close to them right up to the jury rail, if I could, to look them in the eye and watch them the way I'm watching you right now as they answered each question. And the questions, you know, after the typical where do you work? How long have you been there? Do you have a family? Do you know the defendant? Do you know anybody in the his family? Blah, blah, blah. I would look right at them and hold their gaze to see if they looked away, if they blinked rapidly, if they had mannerisms that suggested they had to think about their answers, were they concealing something? You never know, sky, what they're really thinking. And we've seen so many jurors recently that have gone online and investigated the case themselves, which is prohibited during a trial. You've got to be really careful that one of these jurors haven't gotten sucked down the conspiracy drain.

[Sky Lazaro]

That's 100% correct. I think our biggest fear as trial lawyers are the people who really want to be there. You almost want jurors who don't want to be there because they're probably less involved in the case. But you're absolutely right. It doesn't matter how much you do in Vordire, how close you get to them. You never know really what those people are thinking deep down, or if they.

[Nancy Grace]

Have.

[Sky Lazaro]

Any affiliations or gone down these conspiracy theory rat holes and just want to be a part of this case. And the other thing is, unless you sequester them, it's almost impossible to keep them offline during a trial.

[Nancy Grace]

And of course, this is a defense team's fantasy. It's the juror fantasy game that they're playing right now, largely fueled by sluice. Tonight, we are dealing with the facts as we know them now. Not he said, she said. The third cousin twice removed told the gas station attendant this and then they called me, blah, blah, blah. But here are just a few of the conspiracy theories that are spinning out right now. And trust me, believe you me, the defense is writing everyone down.

[Candace Owens (continued commentary)]

Listen, any person with a modicum of intelligence is going to go, I'm not going to put this down in writing with every detail. And apparently whoever offered those Messages likely feds didn't have a modicum of intelligence. The family says that the photo of the young man that is coming up the stairs, which was shared, that blurry image is definitively not Tyler Robinson. And when I put together what I'm being told by Lance's family and what I'm hearing from the Robinson family through a third party, I will say that it matches. It kind of seems like they're agreeing. One family's going, hey, Lance is kind of evil. Why is he getting. Why is he getting cleared? The other one's going, tyler's not.

[Nancy Grace]

This guy from Candace Owens.

[Sydney Sumner]

This is a father of two, had a little girl, a little boy, wife Erica. Like him or hate him, he's a media figure. He was magnetic. Charlie Kirk is one of these people that is a firebrand. They know he is one of these guys who has he stood up for what he believes in.

[Candace Owens]

Candace Owens claims a source close to the Robinson family believe Robinson is being framed has never been to UVU campus. Robinson's parents know the blurry photos distributed by law enforcement are not their son. Robinson never confessed to his father, and he did did not write the messages to lance twigs on September 10th.

[Nancy Grace]

Why are you playing that? I just said we're going to be dealing with facts tonight, not zany conspiracy theories that are handing over wild ideas for the defense to pursue in front of a jury. No, let's go to the courtroom. Listen to what the judge just said.

[Sydney Sumner]

As this case moves forward, Mr. Robinson's constitutional rights will be protected at every stage. He sits before this court presumed innocent. And that presumption remains unless and until each element of every offense charged against him is proved beyond a reasonable doubt. At the same time and as applicable, victims are entitled under our Constitution to be treated with fairness, respect, and dignity, free from harassment or abuse. Justice demands that both of these principles, the rights of the accused and the rights of victims, be honored without compromise.

[Nancy Grace]

City Senator, we're hearing the judge right there. Judge Tory Graf speaking. Talking about being fair not just to the defendant, but to the victims, the state as well. Why did everybody go berserk when the judge said he was going to be fair? I don't get it. What. What's wrong with that?

[Candace Owens]

I found nothing wrong with it. I think the judge made the decision to speak on this issue and speak on keeping things fair because this is such a charged case going forward, they really want to protect the defendant, the victim, the future jury. At this latest hearing, attendees who came in person were not allowed to have bags. They were not allowed to wear any kind of face covering that could possibly, possibly conceal their identity. There are serious secure security concerns with this upcoming trial, with all of the hearings up until the trial. And they want to make sure everyone feels safe and secure in that courtroom, you know.

[Nancy Grace]

To Hermania Rodriguez joining us, chief US reporter with Daily Mail. I respect the judge because the judge is standing up to people, the baying mobs that is demanding one thing or all the conspiracy theorists who are demanding another thing. And he is saying he's going to be fair and they can all go straight to h e double. Of course, I'm paraphrasing right there that he is going to do the right thing. Tell me. Sydney was just talking about the security measures taken for this is just the hearing and the defendant didn't even show his face. Profound security measures taken. Explain, Hermania.

[Hermania Rodriguez]

That's right. This was a hearing that was open to the public. So officials had to take extra steps to protect those that were there and also make sure that the influx of people into the courtroom, that everyone was safe. And that is why the judge made these statements. This case has caused so much commotion around the world and the country and people wanted to show up to this hearing, even though, as you mentioned, we didn't even see Tyler Robinson on the video. So the judge made sure to say, under these circumstances where we have all this extra security, where the President of the United States is talking about, I will not put my finger on the scale of justice. And it was a message, I think that needed to be said in this case.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, the fact that he kept the hearing open to the public as is ordered by the U.S. constitution, in the face of what many considered to be a copycat shooting to me shows great bravery on the part of the judge. Listen to this.

[Sydney Sumner]

A 29 year old Texas man opens fire on an ICE facility in Dallas. Joshua John fired indiscriminately at the building, killing one detainee and injuring two more. Bullet casings recovered at the scene were inscribed with quote, anti ice. John's brother said he did not know John to be very politically motivated. The brothers grew up in nearby Allen, Texas as Boy Scouts. One of John's Boy Scout friends remembered a conversation about immigration with John in which he was upset that no one seemed to understand how desperate families are to get away from dangerous situations.

[Nancy Grace]

And there you hear a guy who is seemingly not concerned with politics before being led to a blind shooting. And this is not whether you agree with ICE or don't agree with ice. This is A shooter, politically motivated, killing people. The fact that the judge had an open courtroom is very impressive. And standing up to both sides, both very powerful sides wanting one outcome or the next. Now you just heard Hermania Rodriguez mentioned the judge referring to the scales of justice.

[Sydney Sumner]

Listen, I will carry out my duties with fidelity, transparency and impartiality, treating every person who appears before me with the dignity and respect they are inherently due because they are human beings. Let me be clear. I will not put my finger on scale of justice. These proceedings will be open to the public, conducted in accordance with the law and handled with diligence and competence to ensure that justice is never compromised.

[Nancy Grace]

What he means by that is, as you all know, lady justice carries a shield and a sword. She also holds the scales of justice in her hands. And when the judge says I'm not putting my finger on the scale, which would tip the scales of justice, basically calling for one outcome, guilty or the other, not guilty by tipping the scales of justice. Is it true, Hermione Rodriguez, that the defense has already been giving carte blanche? A million dollar defense. They've already been given a million dollars out of my wallet.

[Hermania Rodriguez]

That's correct. This case is going to be really expensive for the state. And because it's a death penalty case, the state can attribute lots and lots of money for the defendant to get the best defense possible. And it doesn't have to be a public defender from the county. It can be a prominent fancy lawyer like the one they have obtained. Her name is Katherine Nestor. And yes, reports are saying that this case is, I believe it's both in. The defense will cost the state of Utah as much as a million dollars.

[Sydney Sumner]

As Utah county prepares for a high profile trial, they are awarded a million dollars of taxpayer money to fund Robinson's. The county hires three attorneys on Robinson's behalf. The team led by Katherine Nestor of Nestor Lewis in Salt Lake City. Nestor earned her law degree at the University of Texas and has more than 33 years of defense experience working in both Salt Lake and San Diego as a public defender.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

[Sky Lazaro]

I heard the gunshot go off and.

[Hermania Rodriguez]

That was when I started hearing.

[Sky Lazaro]

A bunch of people started crying and screaming to get down.

[Nancy Grace]

I was terrified.

[Sydney Sumner]

The man who allegedly shot Charlie Kirk, 22 year old Utah resident Tyler Robinson.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm getting bombarded right, right now with conspiracy theories. Okay. So I say stop the conspiracy theories and now they're pouring in like mad. I want to take a look at the shooting suspect. The Charlie Kirk shooting suspect Robinson on body cam. Let's see what we can learn. Watch this.

[Sydney Sumner]

You guys have a couple different versions about what happened. So we have a third. We had a third party witness that watched the entire thing. I'm just trying to clarify your guys story a little bit. So you're heading from that rightmost through lane through the intersection. Maybe a second or so before I reached the intersection, the light changed yellow. Okay. Do you remember looking at the light? Yeah, I was looking up at the light just before getting there.

[Nancy Grace]

The main thing I see right there is it looks just like he did in the video after the shooting and before the shooting where he's wearing the sunglasses and the hat that. Here's some more body cam. Let's watch.

[Sydney Sumner]

So people, people on the side of you were slowing down to a stop. I had seen someone slowing down and wondered why they had slowed so much. Okay. Why do you think that they were slowing down? I'm not sure. Okay. Maybe because the light was turning red. Well, I was like close enough to the light that I would be like I would end up in the intersection if I tried to break from that speed. Okay.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. Let's go straight out to Tracy Brown. Joining us, body language expert and author of how to detect Lies. Tracy, I'm just looking at his body language and his demeanor with the le law enforcement. What do you make of it if anything? I watched the whole video, the whole.

[Tracy Brown]

Hour long footage and here's what's different between him and everyone else there. Because you got to ask yourself what do you see and what's missing? Missing and what's missing is two things. One, nervousness. So he may not have a response to trauma and that can indicate like that, that can lead someone to think that, you know, what he allegedly did was okay. Everyone else, his brother, his mom. The guy in the car that he hit showed signs of anxiety. Fidgeting, wiping or touching your face, touching your neck, playing with your hair. He doesn't show anything. He keeps his hands in his pockets, actually puts his thumbs in his pockets, which is framing his manhood there. And it's different than everyone else.

[Nancy Grace]

Put her up, please. Tracy Brown. What do you mean by putting her. His thumbs in his pockets is, quote, framing his manhood. I feel like I'm reading a 1969 romance novel framing his manhood. Who said that? I'm trying to be kind. I'm trying to be kind.

[Tracy Brown]

It's the same moves that I've seen when I've done reads on Justin Bieber. It's showing how powerful he is, and it's. It's. It's a loose.

[Nancy Grace]

You mean by pointing to his crotch? To put it mildly.

[Tracy Brown]

That's what I mean.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. All right. Like those guys that are always grabbing themselves. I didn't know that meant anything. Okay, go ahead.

[Tracy Brown]

Yeah, it's a power play is what it is. And so he. He's different.

[Nancy Grace]

I just thought it was awkward.

[Tracy Brown]

Well, okay, so let's. Let's put him in the situation. Standing on the corner when your car's sitting in front of you wrecked, and the police have showed up, and you don't know how you're getting a ride home is awkward. So we got to give him that. He doesn't show the same level of effect that everyone else involved does. And he also shows a bit of a lack of awareness of the situation and what really happened. That last part is a little more understandable. But this shows. I think it indicates how he is with law enforcement and concern for those around him and affect at a very, very intense situation.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, it's really interesting that you interpret his behavior in that manner, because, believe it or not, Tracy, that is what other experts are saying regarding his behavior right after the shooting. You're in lockdown step. You're dovetailing with what other experts have said about his demeanor right after the shooting. Listen.

[Sydney Sumner]

Experts say Robinson's behavior after the shooting indicates he did not have a solid plan to avoid capture. Former FBI agent Michael Tabman believes Robinson likely struggled with the gravity of his actions, leading to disorientation and confusion after the shooting. Tabman says Robinson had likely come to terms with being caught and did not plan for what happened after taking the shot. Robinson waited in Orem for hours trying to recover his grandfather's Mauser and reportedly had a run in with police on UVU campus that evening as he made a move to get to the gun.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, I'm not really buying into everything our investigative reporter just said. Such as he had confusion because he left the scene, he changed clothes, he lay in wait trying to get his grand long gun back. That doesn't sound confused at all to me. Because he knew that that gun would be traced right back to his grandpa and had been gifted to him. In fact, isn't it true, Hermanio Rodriguez, Daily Mail, that his bio dad, his father, Robinson's father, kept saying, send me a picture of your grandpa's gun. Send me a picture. And he couldn't because it was confiscated by police. So he knew that gun gun would connect directly to him. That's not confused. That's kind of smart.

[Hermania Rodriguez]

That's right. And that's a very important part of his conversations with his romantic partner and roommate where he seems the most thinking about the rifle and trying to get it back. So he does mention that he's unsure whether the rifle will have a serial serial number and be traced back to him because it's an old weapon. It is his grandfather's thousand percent. In those messages that we have seen with his romantic interest, Tyler Robinson was hyper focused in getting that rifle and he knew it was the major thing tying him to the crime and that's why he remained in the area trying to retrieve it.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, I guess, you know, it's the sneaky FBI. According to Candace Owens again, they knew not only that the murder weapon belonged to Tyler Robinson, had been gifted to him by his grandpa, but also in those texts, this, you know, completely belies any claim that he was confused. He says to the roommate in text, hey, drop what you're doing. His words, not mine. Go under my keyboard to my computer and get rid of this piece of paper that says, hey, I'm going to have a chance to shoot Charlie Kirk and I'm going to take it. So I guess the FBI either planted that under his computer and then texted about it. My point was just total, complete bs. But my point is here, that he is by far from confused. Would you agree, Hermania Rodriguez?

[Hermania Rodriguez]

Yeah, that's another way that we know he planned this attack because after he did it, he had. We know that he had left something in the apartment for the roommate to find. Right after the shooting. They contact the roommate and say, hey, check under the keyboard. So there's more premeditation and planning. Obvious.

[Nancy Grace]

And speaking of the long gun, Tracy Brown and any you're saying he didn't seem to understand the gravity or he couldn't take in the gravity of the car crash. And he was acting really cavalier and casual guy in front of the police that responded to the crash. But here after the shooting we actually see him. And this is thanks to Candace Owens. She came up with this DQ Dairy Queen photo of him hanging around in the area. You know, he wanted to leave the area but he wanted to go and retrieve the long gun. It's like he doesn't understand. He was more worried, you know, that his dad was going to get mad about the long gun. That's what he was upset about. He didn't seem to understand the gravity that he just murdered someone. According to police is shot from Candace Owens. What about it Tracy?

[Tracy Brown]

Well the way you do anything is the way you do everything. So I am not surprised that he was aloof about the situation that he had just created like in killing someone. It's the same way that he handled the car wreck. So 100 not surprised. And yeah, this is, this is how he does things.

[Nancy Grace]

Yeah but Tracy Brown, I hear what you're saying and I want to follow up on that with our shrink, forensic psychologist Allison Paganelli joining us from the Atlanta jurisdiction. Disconnected to what you've done. I see that all the time in killers because people aren't real to them. They're objects. They don't feel human empathy toward their victim or the victim's family. So being disconnected does not rise to legal insanity that you don't know right from wrong at the time of the incident does.

[Sky Lazaro]

Does not in fact any sort of mental condition that is just based on a pattern of criminal behavior or antisocial traits. Lack of empathy would not qualify for even the first step of an insanity defense.

[Nancy Grace]

Just released disp audio has only poured fuel on the flame. Listen, here we go again.

[Candace Owens]

Can you just add a stuff to.

[Sydney Sumner]

The case documenting that there Was no autopsy? 2:87 I need an officer at Kentanoga's hospital to come stage in the emergency room.

[Nancy Grace]

Bay this from uslebitch on X. Straight out to Sydney Sumner joining us Crime stories investigative reporter. Apparently the original death certificate was signed by a doctor at the hospital. Remember Kirk was taken straight to the hospital and so that is where the death certificate came from. The death certificate, isn't that right so far? Sydney Soner.

[Candace Owens]

Yes, absolutely.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to special guest Joining us now, Dr. Priya Banerjee, Board certified forensic pathologist, anatomic pathologist with anchor forensic pathology consulting. Dr. Priya, thank you so much for being with us. Dr. Priya While the death certificate may have been issued at the hospital, that does not preclude Kirk's body being sent for autopsy, does it?

[Candace Owens]

Oh, not at all. Not at all. First of all, I would say that anytime there's trauma involved, a regular doctor, even an ER doctor, can't sign the death certificate. So that death certificate is null and void. They're not legally allowed to do that. So what will happen is that you'll go for an autopsy even if the cause of death is somewhat obvious. But we really need to document what was injured, do it systematically, and then issue a death certificate.

[Nancy Grace]

Hermania Rodriguez joining us. Chief US reporter, DailyMail.com as of tonight, has the autopsy report, the official COD cause of death, been released?

[Hermania Rodriguez]

No, we have not seen an autism an autopsy report and that has, as to you said, fueled further speculation.

[Nancy Grace]

Back to Dr. Priya Banerjee joining us. Forensic pathologist. Dr. Priya, a slowdown in the release of an autopsy report could be due to any number of things. You got to wait on toxicology. With all of these conspiracy theories floating around out there, I think many of them will be put to rest once we get the official autopsy report. What do you think is the holdup? Why no report yet?

[Candace Owens]

Well, I think you're absolutely right in that, you know, even if the autopsy is completed, the exam, the report is very detailed. There's other studies that need to be done, like toxicology, that, that does not happen overnight. And obviously in any case, but a high profile case, we want to dot our I's, cross our teeth. So I don't know if there's any special analysis being done, but there's also like different rules state to state. I mean, you know, there could be legal issues where you would be able to chime in more than I as to why the report may not even be released, especially with an ongoing investigation.

[Nancy Grace]

Yeah, it could be any number of reasons. But now the conspiracy theorists are claiming the government will use their own doctors to effect a cover up. The theories even go as far as attacking Charlie Kirk's widow. The mother of his children is not immune from conspiracy theorists. As you will recall, at his memorial, Erick Kirk raised up an I love you sign. Now that is being twisted around to claim that she is actually putting up the devil's horns. The video you're seeing right there is from Turning Point, but anyone familiar with sign language knows hi, I love you. That's what she's doing. I love you. Abbreviated. They won't even leave his widow alone. We are also learning that speaking of Erica Kirk to Sidney Sumner. Are there also theories that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ordered the hit and that Erica is actually an Israeli spy named Honeypot?

[Candace Owens]

Yes, unfortunately, that is a rumor that is going around that just gets a Whoa, really? Reaction from me personally. So the rumor is that Charlie Kirk, who has been vocal in his support of Israel, was kind of coming to a point that he was no longer going to be offering them his support in this conflict. So.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, you know what? I'm just going to stop you right there. I'm just going to stop you right there. I don't want to add fuel to the flame. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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[Nancy Grace]

This is an iHeart podcast.