Death Row Club

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: "Death Row Club" (August 7, 2026)

Host: Nancy Grace

Guest Panel: Victoria Vasquez (Author), Dr. Rachel Toles (Clinical & Forensic Psychologist), Francine Bardol (Forensic Specialist), Chris McDonough (Veteran Homicide Detective), Dave Mack (Crime Stories Reporter)

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, Nancy Grace delves into the disturbing concept of "The Death Row Club," inspired by Victoria Vasquez's new psychological thriller of the same name. The episode intertwines chilling real-life accounts of notorious serial killers—Ted Bundy, Israel Keyes, Dennis Rader (BTK), Brian Kohberger, and Rex Heuermann—with a discussion of Vasquez's novel, which probes the emotional and societal devastation wrought upon the families of serial killers. The panel of experts discuss the psychological complexities that allow killers to compartmentalize their lives, the pain endured by innocent relatives, and the long-term impact on communities.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The "Death Row Club": Fact vs. Fiction (02:13–03:54)

• Nancy introduces Vasquez’s novel "The Death Row Club," noting its fictional take on a reality she knows all too well from her prosecutorial career.
• The discussion quickly pivots to real-life monsters: Ted Bundy, Israel Keyes, BTK, and others—emphasizing the staggering normalcy some serial killers display.

Quote:
Nancy Grace: "In my world, I deal with real serial killers like Ted Bundy... he seemed to be such a great guy, could go out and do such horrific things. It's just so hard to accept." (02:13)

2. Inside the Mind and Methods of Killers (04:59–06:43)

• Real-life cases discussed, with harrowing details of Israel Keyes’ and Ted Bundy’s crimes: their calculated cruelty, chosen hunting grounds (parks, RV camps), and their ability to go unnoticed.
• Audio snippets and firsthand accounts reinforce the killers' ability to disguise their evil.

Quote:
Nancy Grace: "He sews her eyes open, covers her in makeup and takes a blurry photo and actually asks for ransom. That's Israel Keys." (04:59)

3. The Aftermath for Serial Killers' Families (08:14–13:15)

• Vasquez discusses her inspiration—her own shock after a trusted teacher was unmasked as a predator. She empathizes with those who discover a beloved relative is a killer.
• Relatives, like BTK’s daughter, are highlighted: "these family members are innocent... their whole world is just shattered when they find out they've been living with evil.” (09:30)
• The conversation explores the excruciating process of reconciling love for someone with the horror of their crimes.

Quote:
Victoria Vasquez: "Even after her father's arrested, even after she knows that her father murdered five women...she still loves him. That's not something you can just turn off easily." (12:32)

4. Psychological Analysis: Love, Denial, and Compartmentalization (16:12–19:07)

• Dr. Rachel Toles explains how family members can love the "good" side of someone, even when confronted with monstrous deeds, drawing on compartmentalization.
• Victims, families, and societies wrestle with the need to redefine someone entirely after a crime is revealed, versus honoring the real bonds and the normalcy that preceded the revelation.

Quote:
Dr. Rachel Toles: "There's the person who murders and ... how does a daughter wrap her head around the fact that, did my father really love me? ... He was capable of love, and he was capable of doing this despicable thing." (18:40)

5. Blindsided by Monsters: Victims in Plain Sight (21:23–24:33)

• Francine Bardol shares how Ted Bundy befriended her and her family. He took her son swimming and to movies with his girlfriend’s son; nothing seemed amiss until, in hindsight, warning signs emerged (e.g., Bundy’s "shark" game which involved biting—eerily echoing his later convictions).
• “He removed the door handle so his victims could not escape.” (28:26)

Quote:
Francine Bardol: "He was very smart...He presented himself well...He really was good with the kids." (23:26)

6. Real Cases Mirrored in Fiction (31:30–34:15)

• Nancy underscores how Bundy and others specifically altered ordinary objects (Bundy's VW Beetle) and behaviors to ensnare victims.
• Vasquez details the plot of "Death Row Club": Nicola Fisher, a small-town teacher whose life unravels when her beloved father is exposed as the "Ellicott Creek Ripper." She’s shunned by the community, loses her job, and finally, is invited to a secret retreat for adult children of serial killers—a supposed support group that morphs into a deadly mystery.

Quote:
Victoria Vasquez: “Finally, she's going to be surrounded by people just like her who can understand what she's going through. But then a stranger appears on their doorstep, and a member goes missing, and they're left to wonder, could one of them be following in their family's footsteps?" (34:13)

7. The Deceptive Normalcy of Killers: The Golden State Killer & More (38:55–43:07)

• Discussion on Joseph D’Angelo (Golden State Killer): universally unsuspected, even when arrested, he protested about a roast in the oven—a façade of domestic normalcy.
• Chris McDonough and Francine Bardol discuss the "three lives" of serial killers: private, secret, and public. Their ability to peddle normalcy is often their greatest weapon.

Quote:
Chris McDonough: "They have to convince their friends and their neighbors like chameleons. And that way they can blend in and do what they need to do in that other compartment." (41:00)

8. Life After the Nightmare: Redemption and Drive (43:07–46:38)

• Francine Bardol’s own shock at being close to Bundy steered her into a deep forensic science career—extracting DNA from crime scene evidence.
• Chris McDonough’s personal story: his own child’s near-kidnapping motivated him to devote himself to catching predators.

Quote:
Chris McDonough: "I made a deal with God. I said, if you let me hunt these people down, I will do it for the rest of my life." (45:57)

9. Resonance of “The Death Row Club” and Final Thoughts (46:56–48:43)

• Nancy Grace closes the content segment by praising the novel’s psychological nuance and its ability to strike deep chords with those who work in crime and justice.
• She urges Vasquez to write a sequel and recommends the book as "a psychological thriller – in the best sense." (46:56)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Nancy Grace on Ted Bundy:
  "Isn't he charming? Well, he's having supper with Satan now.” (03:10)

• On Compartmentalization – Dr. Rachel Toles:
  "How are they able to love their daughters or their wives and then go out at night and murder sex workers or people they deem as less human? That's what we need to look at here." (18:40)

• Francine Bardol’s memory:
  "My son came home and said, 'I don’t want to go swimming with Ted anymore...he keeps playing this game called shark, and he keeps biting me.’” (24:38)

• Chris McDonough on the lure of normalcy:
  "There's so many compartments...our private life, our secret life, and our public persona." (41:00)

• Victoria Vasquez on familial love amid horror:
  "Even after her father’s arrested...she still loves him. That's not something you can just turn off easily." (12:32)

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Event/Speaker | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:13 | Nancy introduces “The Death Row Club” and serial killer realities | | 04:59 | Graphic account of Israel Keyes’ crimes | | 09:13 | Clip: BTK’s daughter describes learning her father’s secret | | 12:32 | Vasquez on the difficulty of letting go of past affections | | 17:13 | Dr. Rachel Toles on compartmentalization | | 23:26 | Francine Bardol on life with Ted Bundy around her child | | 31:30 | Dave Mack details Bundy’s “trap” VW Beetle | | 34:15 | Vasquez summarizes her novel’s high-stakes premise | | 41:00 | McDonough on killers’ "three lives" | | 43:07 | Bardol discusses how Bundy indirectly shaped her forensics career | | 45:57 | McDonough shares his personal motivation story | | 46:56 | Nancy Grace’s closing praise for Vasquez’s book |

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Episode Tone

• The tone is urgent, empathetic, and direct, frequently alternating between chilling true crime recounts, psychological reflection, and supportive colleague banter. Nancy Grace maintains her signature intensity and compassion throughout.
• There are occasional darkly humorous asides (e.g., Nancy's critique of her own children's programming), but always with gravity toward victim advocacy and justice.

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Summary for Listeners

"Death Row Club" is one of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace’s most powerful episodes—offering both a psychological autopsy of infamous serial killers and a tender analysis of the families left in their wake. If you’ve ever wondered how someone can reconcile love and horror, or sought insight into why society sometimes shields itself from acknowledging evil, this episode intertwines true crime with literary fiction for a riveting, unnerving, and thought-provoking listen. The dialogue between Nancy Grace, Victoria Vasquez, Dr. Rachel Toles, Francine Bardol, and Chris McDonough is at once haunting and deeply humanizing—a must for crime aficionados and psychological thriller fans alike.

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Nancy Grace]

The Death Row Club. Let that sink in. The Death Row Club. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. The Death Row Club Is it real or is it just a book by Victoria Vasquez? Now this is a book of fiction. In my world, I deal with real serial killers like Ted Bundy. I still have a sense of disbelief that this man that I loved and that was seemed to be such a great guy could go out and do such horrific things. It's just so hard to accept.

[CarMax / Advertisement Voice]

Liz, I'm sure you've asked yourself, why not me?

[Nancy Grace]

Completely. And I hate to even say this because it makes him sound normal, but I do think he loved us. I heard a story told by one of his attorneys. He said Ted told him that he would play games with mice, then he would let some of them live and make some of them die. And to me, that's us. That from our friends at abc. Isn't he charming? Well, he's having supper with Satan now. How many victims did he have? I don't think we really have an accurate body count. Which leads me to another real life serial killer. Let's just go with Israel Keys.

[Chris McDonough]

I was out looking for trouble.

[Francine Bardol]

I had that place up there staked out one, actually two or three nights. And then I had a park,

[911 Operator]

a

[Francine Bardol]

couple of parks here in town that I could ride my bike to. I had those staked out and. Yeah, but there's still a couple gallons of drain on a shovel stashed up there. In fact, when I was smart, I would. Do it. I would let them come to me.

[Chris McDonough]

This remote area. Kind of go to a remote area

[Francine Bardol]

that's not anywhere near where you live, but that other people go to as well. You might not get exactly what you're looking at. There's not as much to choose from, in a manner of speaking. But there's also no witnesses, really. There's nobody else around.

[Nancy Grace]

As a matter of fact, in, we think, his last victim's murder, that would be Samantha Koenig, a beautiful young Alaskan barista who was kidnapped from her coffee stand. He actually sewed her eyes open, applied makeup. This is of course, after sex, assaulting her for hours and hours and hours, turning up the music really loudly so no one would hear her screaming. He sews her eyes open, covers her in makeup and takes a blurry photo and actually asks for ransom. That's Israel Keys. Kill kits all around the country. He specifically liked to hunt at parks, at RV camps, at camping sites. Animal I don't have to think really hard to come up with. Btk, Bind, torture, kill the dog catcher, Dennis Raider. I was going to have sexual fantasies.

[Amazon Health AI / Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile)]

So I brought my hit kit and lo and behold, her car was there. I thought, geez, she's not supposed to be home.

[Nancy Grace]

So I very carefully snuck into the

[Amazon Health AI / Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile)]

house, kind of like a cat burglar. And after checking the house, she wasn't there.

[Nancy Grace]

So about that time, the doors rattled.

[Amazon Health AI / Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile)]

So went back to one of the

[Nancy Grace]

bedrooms and hid back there in one of the bedrooms. I waited till wee hours in the

[Amazon Health AI / Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile)]

morning and then Proceeded to sneak into her bedroom and put the lights on. Looked like.

[Nancy Grace]

Or I think the bathroom lights.

[Dave Mack]

I just.

[Nancy Grace]

I didn't want to flip her lights on.

[Amazon Health AI / Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile)]

And she screamed and I jumped on the bed and strangled her manually.

[Nancy Grace]

That from our friends at kwch. And then of course, let me just throw in for good measure, Brian Kohberger, who murdered four beautiful young Idaho students. I will never forget this 911 call.

[911 Operator]

Tell me exactly what's going on. One of our. One of the roommates has passed out and she was drunk last night and she's not waking up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some man in their house last night. Yeah, you can see. Hi, this is. And are you with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened? Pretty much what is going on currently? Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much at 4:00am Okay, I need to know what's going on right now. If someone has passed out, can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on. We gotta go check. But we have to. She's not waking up. Okay, one moment. I'm getting help started that way. Okay, Winston,

[Nancy Grace]

The list goes on. And on. The Death Row Club. Victoria Vasquez joining us. First question.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Why?

[Victoria Vasquez]

So first of all, thank you so much for having me, Nancy. I was fascinated by the idea of being linked to a family member and living under kind of the pall of what they've done. While I personally do not have any family members who are serial killers, this was in some way inspired by.

[Nancy Grace]

Whoa, whoa, hold on, Nellie. You sure? You sure? So you know you don't have a family that's here. I'm so not kidding right now. I want you to listen to this.

[CarMax / Advertisement Voice]

There's a knock on my door, and he said he was the FBI. And then he says, your dad has been arrested as btk. And I was like, I think I'm going to pass out. I think reality was starting to creep in and I felt my stomach just twist, realizing it could be true.

[Nancy Grace]

That from our friends at abc, Dennis Radar. Just evil. Evil incarnate. That's his daughter, who is amazing. And living with exactly what Victoria Vasquez is writing about. And this book, I gotta tell you, is amazing. I'm giving her a hard time. Like, why would you want to write about a serial killer? They're odious, they're horrible, they're the devil. But what you're writing about, Victoria, I understand, is about family that can't believe It. They're suspicious and what it does to them. And you know, a lot of people, Victoria, they're like, hey, that's the daughter of a serial killer. Screw her. But these family members are innocent. They're innocent. And then their whole world is just shattered when they find out they've been living with evil. Okay, where'd you get the idea?

[Victoria Vasquez]

So this was in part inspired by something that happened to me when I was in high school. I had a teacher that I was very, very close with. But then two years after I gradu graduated, it was revealed that he was a dangerous sexual predator. He was arrested in a car with a 15 year old student. And when I found out, I was completely blindsided. I had absolutely no idea. Again, we were so close. He inspired me to want to become a teacher myself. And all I could think was, if I was so caught out by my teacher turning out to be a predator, then what must it be like when the police come knocking on your door telling you about of the women that your father has murdered?

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, my stars. Oh, my stars. You know what you're reminding me of? You reminded me of a murder case I prosecuted and one of my star witnesses. I had no eyewitness to the murder, and you're about to hear I had to dig the bottom of the barrel. But you got to take your witnesses as you find them. I found a witness, not an eyewitness, but that could help me in the timeline who was a convicted rapist. Now, his story was very different than what the record reflected. But I had to drive all around Atlanta with this guy in my beat up Honda day and night, trying to take pictures him to show me where this happened, where that happened. And he testified. And there were times in the car, Victoria Vasquez, I would, you know, glance over and go, I can't believe this guy is convicted rapist. It was hard to take in, but I knew it to be true. Okay, so that's where you got the idea.

[Victoria Vasquez]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that just what you're saying, Nicola, the main character in the novel, even after her father's arrested, even after she knows that her father murdered five women, including her best friend from college, she still loves him. That's not something you can just, you know, turn off that easily. I mean, I still, after my teacher was arrested, I still have, you know, fond thoughts about him, despite the fact that I know he has done disgusting things. It's hard to flip that switch mentally and be like, this person who was so important to me is actually like you're saying is sick, is a predator, is, you know, a disgusting human being. It's hard.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, I'm gonna have to go to a shrink right now because you're scaring everybody in the studio by saying, I know that he's a child predator, but I still like him. Dr. Rachel Toles, help me. Dr. Toles, clinical forensic psychologist, author of a brand new book coming out, Inventing the Psychopath. Ooh, that's a great title. How a convenient.

[Andrea Gunning]

This is Andrea Gunning from Betrayal Weekly. This is a stunning story based on the hit true crime podcast Betrayal. He was a tall, handsome police officer, the man of her dreams. Caroline knew right away he was the man she would spend her life with. But then she got a text that changed everything. The man she loved was having affair after affair with so many different women in his cop car while on duty. I implore you to watch Betrayal Dirty Secrets now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.

[Amazon Health AI / Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile)]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

Myth makes the world more dangerous. Okay. Dr. Rachel Toles fits in exactly with what Victoria is saying. And I'm not saying she's wrong. I'm saying that phenomena is scary. And I lived through that in court, particularly in child sex abuse cases, because the family, the wife, they're like, oh, no, that's not true. That didn't happen. He would never. He did and I proved it. And the family would be furious. I would get my tire slashed, my door at my house kicked in, my mailbox knocked over because no body would believe it. Is it a matter of they can't believe it? Because Vasquez, she's super smart. This book is amazing. The Death Row Club. But she still can't take in that that teacher is a pervert that preyed on children because that was not her experience with him. What is that phenomenon?

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Dr. Rachel well, it's obviously really complicated for a lot of reasons. I mean, human beings are complicated. So I think that, for example, when we to the murder, that suddenly defines the entire person. So everything that came before the murders is just gone. And I think when you mentioned this guy was a pervert, this teacher, those are absolutely things he did. They were despicable and those are real things and those are a part of him. But I think where we as a society and a culture, where we go is that we, the minute we find out of a despicable act, we define the entire person by that act. And that doesn't mean there' no excuse for these actions. So that's absolutely not what I'm saying. But what I am saying is there's also other parts of a human being that are real. For example, I mean, here we're talking about somebody who's saying, well, I still love my father or I still care for my teacher. And that's very real. And that doesn't go away. And so then it's a matter of being able as a daughter or a person who loves somebody to hold two different people in your mind. And you have to compartmentalize. And that's really what we're talking about here. So there's a couple of things. There's the person who murders and that's the other thing. It's like, how does a daughter wrap her head around the fact that, did my father really love me? And. And maybe.

[CarMax / Advertisement Voice]

No.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Yes, my father really loved me. He was capable of love, and he was capable of doing this despicable thing. So there's that element to it. But then there's, of course, the compartmentalization. How does a human being. How are they able to love their. Their daughters or their wives and then go out at night and murder sex workers or people who they deem as less human? And that's what I think we need to be looking at here.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Toles, in addition to being a clinical and forensic psychologist and author of a new book, I think you may be clairvoyant, because I was just about to bring up Rex Heuermann, who is Lucifer. Before I show him, let's look at his many, many victims. They went through unimaginable suffering, torture in his underground torture chamber that his wife never noticed. And he, by the way, has made at least $1 million reportedly. Hey, let me see if I scares.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

What?

[Nancy Grace]

I'm talking about Heuerman. These were real serial killers, okay? His wife didn't notice the underground sex and murder dungeon in her home, and she's reportedly made a million dollar sum for a documentary with quoties about her life and the trial and so forth. ASA Ellerup is her name. I don't know about her, but I have no doubt that his children had no idea that Heuerman was a serial killer and are likely going through what you're talking about. And I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying it's bizarre and hard to understand, but is real. Okay, listen.

[Francine Bardol]

Do you understand that by pleading guilty

[Nancy Grace]

to a charge that is the same

[Francine Bardol]

as you would have gone to trial

[Nancy Grace]

and been found guilty of that charge?

[Dave Mack]

Yes, Your Honor.

[Chris McDonough]

Do you understand that by pleading guilty,

[Francine Bardol]

you're waiving a number of very important rights?

[Nancy Grace]

Yes, you, Honor.

[Francine Bardol]

Rex Uerman will be held responsible for the 1993 murder of Sandra Castilla, the 1996 murder of Karen Vergata, the 2000 murder of Valerie Mack, the 2003 murder of Jessica Taylor, the 2007 murder of

[Nancy Grace]

Maureen Brainard Barnes, the 2009 murder of

[Chris McDonough]

Melissa Barthelemy, the June 2009 murder of Megan Waterman, and the September 2010 murder of Ms. Costello.

[Amazon Health AI / Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile)]

The girl runs out of the house

[Nancy Grace]

naked and is running in front of the garage.

[Amazon Health AI / Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile)]

And now the witness says, hey, shouldn't

[Nancy Grace]

we be taking her?

[Amazon Health AI / Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile)]

Something.

[Nancy Grace]

Something's wrong here.

[Amazon Health AI / Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile)]

And the driver tells her, no, they're

[Nancy Grace]

just playing a game. Leave it.

[Dave Mack]

The Gilgo beach task force searches more than 350 electronic devices before finding the blueprint document on a hard drive in the basement of Heuermann's home. The document includes a checklist of supplies like robes, saws, and surgical drapes. Another checklist includes tasks to complete before, during, and after the killings, as well as practical lessons for next time,

[Francine Bardol]

along

[Nancy Grace]

the lines of what Victoria Vasquez is writing about in this amazing new book, the Death Row Club. They say fresh and unforgettable. Okay, it's definitely unforgettable. I agree with that. But another real life example of this, a woman joining us right now. Her name, Francine Bardol, who knew Ted Bundy very well. And actually, brace yourselves, because normally I would be trying to accuse her of child neglect. Her son and Bundy's girlfriend. Son. Her son and Bundy's girlfriend's son were best friends. Bundy would take the two boys to movies and the pool. Ted Bundy taking your child to movies and a pool party. She's also with Cold Case Solutions and Resources. Francine, I mean, do you ever just want to go, what was I thinking? But how could you know?

[Francine Bardol]

I. I didn't know.

[Dave Mack]

He.

[Francine Bardol]

He was very smart. He presented himself well. He was very good with the kids. He was. He really was really good with them. And he used to sit when he come home to pick up Josh, because I was pretending. Josh. We'd sit and talk for a long time. He would talk about law school. I was interested in law school. He was very astute, very good listener, and he was handsome, and he was endearing. And I remember my son.

[Nancy Grace]

You think he's handsome? Because he looks like a demon to me. I've interviewed, I believe, every living victim of Ted Bundy's. And the stories they have told me on and off air are blood curdling. You do know he had sex with a woman's skull, right?

[Francine Bardol]

Oh, absolutely. I do know all about him.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, and you do know that after he would kill the victims, he would bathe their bodies and do their hair and put makeup on them?

[Francine Bardol]

Yes, I do.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, Just making sure you knew that. Okay, tell me a Bundy story.

[Francine Bardol]

Well, he. He would take my son and Josh swimming. He was. He went to law school at the University of Utah, and they allowed them access to the Fort Douglas swimming pool. And my son was. I think he was six, maybe, as I was recalling it. And Josh was about the same age, and he'd take them Swimming. And they like going swimming. I mean, not everybody had a swimming pool back in those days. And that was in, like, 74. And so they'd go. And then one day my son came home and he said, I don't want to go swimming with Ted anymore. And of course, I was kind of concerned, thinking maybe Ted had, you know, touched him or been inappropriate with him. And I said, well, why not? And he goes, well, he keeps playing this game called shark, and he keeps biting me. And as you know, that's how Ted was convicted, based on his bite marks. And so, as I think about it now, it was totally surprising because the boys love going with him, and he was always good with them, but had no idea my son was going to be an appetizer. And then there were times when he'd take them to the movies, drive in. Movies were big back then. And he took them to the movies and he leave, and he'd tell the boys, I'm going to the snack bar, but I'll be back. You know, you guys wait. And he wouldn't come back. And so they'd get the movie, get over, and they go out looking for him, and they. My son Larry said that he. He'd see that he saw Ted standing by the women's restroom door watching the women leaving. And he thought that he was just young, he was just little. He couldn't understand why he wasn't at the snack bar getting candy. And so that was kind of concerning. And the other thing that kind of bothered me, but I didn't give it much thought because I babysat Josh. His mom, who Ted was living with, asked if I could tan Josh. Well, her and Ted would go water skiing. And I, of course, say, yes, and that was just fine. But she'd sometimes call and say, oh, never mind. He didn't come home last night, and we're not going. And he takes off sometimes and he doesn't come home for a while. And she was speculating. Perhaps it was because he'd go visit his mother or just do something like normal, you know, for him to do that sort of thing. And I didn't think a lot about it. I. You know, because I didn't give it a lot of thought. But I do recall one time she. She had to work a little bit later, and she asked me if I could bring Josh back home. And Ted was there and drop him off, because she's going to be later. So I did take him home. And I remember knocking and knocking on the door. He didn't answer the Door. And I thought, I wonder if he's really home or not. And all a sudden I saw the. He just peaked out of the curtains, just a peeking and. And then he opened the door, and it was pitch dark in the house. And that was the first time I felt really uneasy, was I didn't feel good about how the house was so dark and leaving Josh there. But Josh acted like, you know, not a big deal, and that bothered me. And then later on, Larry would say, that's my son. And he'd say, you know, sometimes when Ted would get home after a weekend, he would want it to be totally quiet. He didn't want any noise. The house was just really, you know, kind of. It wasn't all. It was kind of dark. And he would want his food delivered to his door. So Leslie would. That was the girl he was living with, would take the food to the door, the bedroom door where Ted was staying, as you leave it there, and he'd eat it. And he was like that for a couple of days. So those were kind of strange things, you know. But honestly, there was nothing I. I could think about. There was one thing that was a little strange. My son got mad because he had to do some chores, and so he ran away from home. He was 6, maybe 7. And I couldn't find him. And Ted offered to help find him. And Ted did find him. And my son, you know, he kind of got on my son about doing that. And he took my son's bike, he had a little bike, and he took it out of his trunk of the car. And in a Volkswagen, the trunk is in the front. And he walked around to let my son out of the car. But I remember my son said, oh, he couldn't get out of the car by himself because the door handle was missing. So I didn't know anything about this kind of thing. I thought, well, you know, it wasn't, you know, not a big deal, I guess. But yeah, he. He would remove the door handle so he victims could not escape.

[Nancy Grace]

To Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter the ruses Ted Bundy. Well, all of the serial killers used to snare their victims were very often very intricate. Ted Bundy would use a fake sling or cast to approach women and act like he was disabled because of the injury, then use that cast or sling on them to quiet them. As you just heard from Francine Bardol and some of his earlier victims, he would approach them in that vw. They got in, but they couldn't get out. And that is exactly what her little son Was describing.

[Dave Mack]

It's so shocking to hear her describe that her son was in a trap vehicle, A vehicle that Ted Bundy used to trap his Corey and to keep them there. I was thinking you were talking about Ted Bundy with his arm in the sling. I was thinking of Janice Odd. You know, he asked her to help him put, you know, his wrapped on the top of the car, you know, because he couldn't get it on top of the bug. And next thing you know, she was gone. He had his arm in a sling. Used crutches too, Nancy. And would just find any means necessary to get that person, the victim, in the car. And once they were in the car, that was it. You know, it was the fact I got chill bumps when she said that the handle was missing on the inside. You know, he oftentimes took the front seat, passenger seat out of that bug to be able to control the victim even more. So the whole idea is just shocking to me. I can't imagine what she goes through thinking about her son being in the physical location where victims spent their last living moments.

[Nancy Grace]

That's right, Dave. Matt. When police pulled him over in Utah, they found handcuffs, ice pick, crowbar, garbage bags, ski mask. In the vw, he often drove a vw, modifying it in multiple ways to make it easier for him to snare and murder his victims. Straight back out to Victoria Vasquez. Victoria, we're talking about real life serial killers. I want to talk about your book, which is really fantastic. Now, your premise is about. You said Nicola. I wish you hadn't said that because when I read your book, I called her in my mind Nicola. And you gave me a flashback to when I read every single Harry Potter book to the children when they were little, out loud. And I thought it was Hermione. And then I found out it was Hermione. It ruined everything. Okay, so the whole daughter of Nicola. And you just said Nicola. Okay, go ahead, tell me all about Nicola.

[Victoria Vasquez]

First of all, it's not just you, Nancy. I have met many people who call her Nicola. So not just you. So Nicola is a elementary school teacher, kind of similar to me. I teach middle and high school. And she lives in a very small town in upstate New York, A town where everybody knows everybody. Her father owns the hardware store. He's really loved in the community. Everybody trusts him. And then one day, a true crime show comes to town called to catch a killer. And in this true crime show, a woman who is a criminal defense attorney turned reality TV show host, she is trying to catch the ellicott Creek Ripper, who is the killer that terrorized their small town for so long. And she's doing it with the assistance of her father, Tom woods, who is a convicted serial killer on death row. And so they manage to catch the Ellicott Creek Ripper, who is Nicola's father. And that is where Nicola's problems begin. She is shunned by her community. She is fired from her job. The bank is threatening to foreclose on her house. When she receives an invitation to the Death Row Club, which is a secret retreat for the adult children of serial killers. And at first, this seems like the solution to all her problems. Finally, she's going to be surrounded by people just like her who can understand what she's going through. But then a stranger appears on their doorstep, and a member goes missing, and they're left to wonder, could one of them be following in their family's footsteps?

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Because you made my mind go off to Murders Only in the Building, you know, with Martin Short and Steve Martin and Selena Gomez. Selena Gomez, as, you know, kind of like, leads this podcast, and they end up solving true crimes. It's amazing. And I've had a lot of bonding time with my son watching Murders Only in the Building. Okay, wait, what does that say? We watch Murders Only in the Building. My daughter and I watched Dexter. Okay, I need to rethink my children's programming in our home. But so that premise is. It's the adult daughter, Nicola Fisher. Dad owns a hardware store, small community. A lot of us can identify with that. And then he is outed as a serious. A notorious serial killer. Then she gets hooked up with a podcaster. Tell me that part again.

[Victoria Vasquez]

Yeah, so the podcaster is the one who ultimately is responsible for her father's arrest, which is terrible because Nicola thought that this girl was her friend and they were, like, working together. And then it turns out, no, she was actually after her dad. She suspected that Nicholas dad was. Was the killer all along. So Nicola feels betrayed. So, yeah, and then she gets this invitation, and of course, who is at the retreat, but this. This podcaster, this true crime host, Greer. So she has to figure out if she can trust Greer again or if they are enemies. So you have a little bit of tension there, too.

[Nancy Grace]

This is an amazingly intricate plot, but it just flows so quickly. You just go from page to page because you want to know what happens. And I'm not going to give away the. The end, but Chris McDonough joining us. Chris McDonough veteran homicide detective with over 300 homicide investigations under his belt, working at an advocate.

[Andrea Gunning]

This is Andrea Gunning from Betrayal Weekly. This is a stunning story based on the hit true crime podcast Betrayal. He was a tall, handsome police officer, the man of her dreams. Caroline knew right away he was the man she would spend her life with. But then she got a text that changed everything. The man she loved was having affair after affair with so many different women in his cop car while on duty. I implore you to watch Betrayal Dirty Secrets now streaming on Hulu and Hulu

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[Nancy Grace]

Thoughts I I can't stop scratching my downtown. Mm, yeah, but I'm not itching to go downtown and tell a receptionist I'm here to talk about my downtown. Some things you'd rather type than say out loud.

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[Nancy Grace]

See terms getting 4 the Cold Case foundation he is the star. This where I found him. Of the interview room on YouTube. Can we talk about Joseph D', Angelo, the golden State Killer, for just one moment? First of all, listen to this. Listened all your statements,

[Chris McDonough]

each one of

[Francine Bardol]

them,

[Nancy Grace]

And I'm really sorry

[Chris McDonough]

to everyone I've heard.

[CarMax / Advertisement Voice]

My safety was shattered as a masked man, d', Angelo, yielding a knife, told me he would kill me if I didn't do what he demanded. As I lay helpless or sat tied, gagged, blindfolded and naked in the cold December night, waiting for what unthinkable act he would violate me with next. He tormented me, and he told me over and over again he would kill me. And I believed him. At three different times that night, I thought I was going to die.

[Nancy Grace]

That from our friends at ABC and kxtv. You know, no one within his circle suspected the Golden State Killer was Joseph d', Angelo, a former cop, as I recall, at Oxford PD and another pd. He was actually on the police force. And he was so normal that when they came to arrest him, as I recall, he went, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. I've got a roast in the oven. So dichotomy of the normalcy, the seeming normalcy that Victoria Vasquez is describing when it's really a serial killer. Have you ever experienced that dichotomy?

[Chris McDonough]

Well, Nancy, this is why this is so fascinating. With these types of personalities that the doc was talking about, there's so many compartments, but the first three, our private life, our secret life, and our public Persona that is projected. And I did an interview with Wesley Allen Dodd in 1992, who was on death row. And before the interview, he had sent me a letter. And I have that letter actually right behind me in the shelf here. Long story short, it's Christmas Eve, and he's writing me a letter about our upcoming visit to. And he signs off by saying, happy holidays, and this is a gentleman. You know, this is obviously a monster. And that's what I love about Francine. I mean, she just told us a story about, you know, having an interaction with Ted Bundy, yet that inspired her ultimately to become a very famous forensic scientist, which, you know, you know about her background. But that's who they have to convince first. Their families. They have to convince their friends and their neighbors around them like chameleons. And that way they can blend in and do what they need to do in that other compartment.

[Nancy Grace]

Back to Francine Bordeaux. Speaking of what you do with your life after this incident, like your life after you realized you unwittingly let Ted Bundy be around your baby with no idea he was that cunning and that charming. And it wasn't just you. He fooled. He fooled everybody around him. Everyone but you. Go on. You're with Cold Case Solutions and Resources. You're a DNA expert.

[Francine Bardol]

Expert.

[Nancy Grace]

You're a crime scene investigator and a forensic specialist. Did that metamorphosis have anything to do with Bundy?

[Francine Bardol]

I think to some extent it did, because I remember as I was growing up, you know, a serial killer looked like a serial killer. You thought, and this is not what Ted looked like. Not only that, but Utah is. Where he was at, is a Mormon community. It's a Mormon state. And he got baptized in the Mormon church. That made him endearing. He also got involved with politics. That made him credible. He was going to law school. I mean, there was all these things. And this is what serial killers, I believe, do, is they try to fit in as best they can and look as benign as they possibly can. And I remember thinking about when this happened. It was very shocking to me because. Yeah, when they. When they broke the news that they had pulled him over in the Volkswagen and they said Theodore Bundy, I didn't. That didn't click with me. And I looked at the screen and I said, oh, my God, that's Ted shocked me. Even Leslie shocked her. She got out real fast. And then I got thinking about, how are they going to catch him? What's going to happen? And as time went on and I started learning about evidence and I started learning about DNA, and I looked at some of the photographs from the sorority killings, I thought, there is so much. So much evidence there that has such great DNA on it. It's too bad DNA wasn't, you know, around at the time. And because there. There was just so much stuff that you could have gotten things from. And I really became interested in what I do is I extract the biological material from items of evidence so that it could be DNA tested. And I sent it off to forensic labs to do that. My specialty is getting the DNA out. And every item is so unique. And it's really interesting. It's kind of like where I'm going to focus on. And I. I like to look at the pictures of the crime scene, and I can see at the crime scene this would be a really great item of evidence. And as I looked at the pictures of DNA or of evidence from Ted Bundy stuff, boy, that was a gold mine. It really was. And it. That's. I think it did. You know, I wanted to go to law school, but I kind of went a different way and got into working in the criminal justice system. I've gone just about every way through the criminal justice system there is and I ended up doing what I'm doing now.

[Nancy Grace]

Francine Bardol, the Lord called you in a different direction. Thank goodness. Chris McDonough, was there any event in your life the way Vasquez describes what happened to Nicola in the death row club that turned you toward becoming a homicide detective?

[Chris McDonough]

Yeah, actually there was Nancy, like you, not to the extreme that you've had to experience, but my then 3 year old son was almost kidnapped sidewalk out in front of our house and I witnessed the door of that vehicle open and I chased after that suspect. Long story short, I wasn't smart enough back then to get the license plate of the vehicle. But I made a deal with God. I said, if you let me, you know, hunt these people down, I will do it for the rest of my life. And here I am, 44 year old, 44 years later, still talking about predatorial behavior.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, Chris McDonough, as long as I have known you, I did not know that about you.

[Chris McDonough]

Yeah, that was my foundation. That was 19, 1981 in 82 is when I got in law enforcement.

[Nancy Grace]

And you're still doing it. You know, occasionally I get, you know, extremely weary with the crush of murder and mayhem and just pure hate that many of our cases involve. But I remember when I get like that. I remember Keith and those big blue eyes, my fiance that was murdered. And I feel like I can't quit. Victoria Vasquez, your book, at times light hearted. The Death Row Club is really striking a chord as you can see tonight. I hope that Nicola goes on like McDonough, like Francine and so many others to do amazing things. Translation, you gotta write a sequel guys. If you haven't already read it. The Death Row Club. It's amazing and for those of us in our business, it hits on so many different levels. The Death Row Club by Victoria Vasquez. It's a psychological thriller and I mean that in the best sense. Thank you Victoria and to my awesome and amazing panel. Tonight we stop, as we always do, to remember an American hero. Officer Dominic Francis, Bluffton PD Ohio. Killed in the line of duty. After devoting nearly 20 years of of his life to protecting and serving. Leaving behind wife Ricky and two children, Blake and Taylor. American hero, officer Dominic Francis. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night, God willing. And until then, good night friend. You want to advance your education, but not on a traditional path. At Rasmussen University you'll find flexible and engaging online experiences, tuition savings options if you qualify, exceptional student support, and so much more. You may also qualify for a brand new laptop when you enroll in select online or on campus programs. Enroll in a fully online program or at one of their 20 campuses across six states. Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit rasmussen.

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[Nancy Grace]

This is an Iheart podcast. Guaranteed human.