DEFENSE: MANGIONE'S 'BEAUTIFUL, PROMISING LIFE DERAILED' BY MURDER CHARGES

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: DEFENSE: MANGIONE'S 'BEAUTIFUL, PROMISING LIFE DERAILED' BY MURDER CHARGES

Date: December 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Nancy Grace and her panel dissect the defense strategy in the high-profile murder case of Luigi Mangione, accused of assassinating United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. The defense claims Mangione's "beautiful, promising life" has been derailed by "pesky" murder charges, a narrative drawing outrage. The episode unpacks the legal maneuvers, public fascination with the defendant, and the disturbing shift in sympathy toward alleged killers rather than their victims.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defense Narrative: Mangione as the "Victim"

• The defense portrays Mangione as someone whose life has been thrown off course by unjust allegations.

• Nancy Grace shreds this claim, contrasting Mangione's privileged background with the true victim, CEO Brian Thompson, who left behind a wife and two sons.

  “His beautiful, promising life has been derailed by those pesky murder charges…Wow, I wonder how the murder victim's family is feeling about right now.” – Nancy Grace ([01:43])

• Dr. Judy Ho, forensic neuropsychologist, analyzes the charismatic allure Mangione wields over his supporters, noting some see him as an "antihero" and project their own needs onto him ([05:08]).

2. Public Obsession & "Fanhood" of Alleged Killers

• The episode exposes the phenomenon of “groupies” idolizing Mangione, illustrating “pretty privilege” and the glamorization of defendants.

  “Look at this line...clamoring to just bask in the glow of Luigi Mangioni. They had to turn women away. And it's not just women.” – Nancy Grace ([06:44])

• Social media clips show people romanticizing Mangione, equating him to a misunderstood celebrity or movie character ([09:03]).

  "Mama, I'm in love with a criminal. And this type of love isn't rational. It's physical." – Nancy quoting Britney Spears ([08:09])
  “You can't take my man. …you’re the one with the gun, who’s taking lives for fun.” – Scarlet Park, TikTok ([09:37])

• Dr. Judy Ho explains the fantasy connections and detachment from murder facts, noting the defense exploits such public sentiment to shape jury pools ([10:23]).

3. Victim Devaluation & Me-Centric Defendants

• Grace draws parallels between Mangione and past notorious defendants (Jamie Lee Komorowski, Jodi Arias, Shayna Hubers) who viewed themselves as victims rather than the people they harmed ([15:04-21:09]).

  “Everything is on them. How can you possibly think Mangione is sitting here saying his life is derailed? Well, he destroyed another life and another family.” – Dave Mack ([16:25])

• The conversation turns to how society increasingly empathizes with perpetrators, undermining the stories of real victims and their families.

4. Legal Battles: Suppression of Evidence

• Mangione’s defense is vigorously fighting to exclude critical evidence:

  • The 911 call that led to his arrest at McDonald’s, primarily based on a description involving his “bushy eyebrows.”
  • Statements made by Mangione to law enforcement and guards.
  • Discovery of a 3D-printed “ghost gun” and a handwritten notebook discussing plans to "whack" the CEO ([33:47]).

• Legal experts explain the defense’s attempts to argue “unlawful detention” at McDonald’s and “illegal search” of Mangione’s backpack.

  "They're planting and cultivating and trying to grow this story that he's the victim, …it's just BS." – Cheryl McCollum ([31:19])

• The bodycam footage and the sequence of police interactions are discussed as pivotal in determining if statements/evidence will be suppressed ([29:55-31:52]).

5. The Forensic Case: Ghost Guns, Silencers, and Ballistics

• The weapon: A 3D-printed, unserialized pistol (ghost gun) with a suppressor (misnamed “silencer”) and associated ballistic evidence discussed.

• Experts highlight criminal interest in untraceable firearms, legal implications, and the ability to match bullets to the weapon like a “fingerprint.”

  "No other gun, be it a 3D printed gun, Grandma Bessie's, you can track and identify like a fingerprint." – Nancy Grace ([39:03])

• The prosecution alleges Mangione waited for Thompson outside the hotel, then used the ghost gun to shoot him, with a suppressor to reduce noise and avoid detection ([41:18]).

6. Defendant’s Admissions to Guards

• Mangione allegedly confessed key details to his prison guards (being caught with a 3D-printed gun, motivations, etc.), which the defense seeks to suppress.

  “He just blurted out to you that he had a 3D printed pistol? …Yes.” – Testimony from Officer Henry ([45:46])

• Psychologists weigh in on his possible sense of entitlement and lack of healthy boundaries or accountability ([46:28]).

7. The Core Conflict: Justice for the True Victim

• Nancy and panelists re-center the narrative on Brian Thompson, a hardworking family man, and warn about possible miscarriage of justice if key evidence is excluded.

  “…if this evidence is suppressed, there may be no justice in this case. A man shot down on the sidewalk on video and no justice.” – Nancy Grace ([50:03])

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Nancy Grace on defense claims:
  “Beautiful, promising life derailed by those irritating murder charges.” ([01:43])
• Dr. Judy Ho on the "antihero" phenomenon:
  “There's these individuals who actually believe maybe he is a victim, that he's some type of antihero, that he's misunderstood.” ([05:08])
• Cheryl McCollum on fan mail:
  “I hope and pray that those 6,000 letters that he's got, that 115 a day, that there's some good intel in there too, because he is writing people back.” ([12:04])
• Nancy Grace on defendant entitlement:
  “This is a millionaire's son...living in a Hawaii high rise...doing nothing. And yet he's the victim.” ([13:04])
• Dave Mack on societal shift:
  “We've got a whole group of people now that never want to admit they did anything wrong. Everything is on them.” ([16:25])
• Cheryl McCollum dismissing suppression arguments:
  “They're planting and cultivating and trying to grow this story that he's the victim… it's just BS.” ([31:19])
• Tom Smith on ghost guns:
  "That's the predetermined and premeditation of it already. He's already thinking ahead of that gun not being traced to him." ([35:33])
• Nancy Grace on forensics:
  “…you can track and identify like a fingerprint. That bullet came from that gun, isn't that true?” ([39:03])
• Dr. Angela Arnold on Mangione’s confessions:
  “He probably suffers from some sort of personality disorder... more likely to almost be bragging about what he's done.” ([46:28])
• Kayla Brantley on "pretty privilege":
  “It absolutely feels like Luigi is benefiting from that by having hordes of fans because he is a handsome man.” ([49:45])
• Nancy Grace's closing warning:
  “If this evidence is suppressed, there may be no justice in this case. …We wait as justice unfolds.” ([50:03])

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Key Timestamps by Segment

• Opening Theme & Defense Narrative Introduction: [01:43]
• Mangione’s Defense in Court / Defense Team Quotes: [01:43–05:08]
• Discussion of Victim-Blaming and Defendant "Fanhood": [06:02–10:23]
• TikTok & Social Media Obsession Segment: [08:00–10:23]
• Past Cases of "Me-Me" Defendants: [15:04–21:09]
• Legal Analysis of Suppression Motions: [23:32–33:47]
• Discussion of Ghost Gun & Ballistics Evidence: [34:05–41:18]
• Mangione’s Jail Confessions to Guards: [43:47–46:28]
• Psychological Insight into Mangione's Behavior: [46:28]
• Discussion of Family Presence & “Pretty Privilege”: [49:27–50:03]
• Closing Reflections & Tribute: [50:03–51:12]

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Episode Tone & Language

• Direct, hard-hitting, and at times caustic, in line with Nancy Grace's signature style.
• Irony and sarcasm used to highlight the absurdity of the "derailed life" defense and public infatuation with alleged criminals.
• Panelists remain analytical, contributing expert insights while reinforcing the centrality of the victim.

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Final Takeaway

Nancy Grace and her guests deliver a stern rebuke of defense efforts to shift sympathy from the murder victim, Brian Thompson, to his accused killer, Luigi Mangione. The episode warns of the dangers of media-fueled criminal idolization, exposes the legal maneuvers aiming to exclude damning evidence, and insists on justice for the true victim as the case progresses through court.

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Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

The defense for the alleged assassin Luigi Mangione actually gets up in court and talks about how Mangioni is the victim, actually claiming with a straight face that his quote, beautiful, promising life has been derailed by those pesky murder charges. Wow, I wonder how the murder victim's family is feeling about right now. He's leaving behind a wife and two sons and Luigi Mangione's defense team claims he's the victim. And I haven't even got started on what they are trying to have thrown out of evidence so a jury will never hear the truth. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[Kayla Brantley]

What is the address of your emergency? It's not really an emergency.

[Nancy Grace]

I just, I have a customer here.

[Kayla Brantley]

That some other customers were suspicious of that he looked like the CEO shooter. Okay.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to Kayla Brantley joining us, investigative reporter@large, dailymail.com did they actually say in court that their client Luigi Mangione is the victim because his quote, beautiful, promising life has Been derailed.

[Kayla Brantley]

Yeah, Nancy, as you mentioned, his team did paint him as someone with a promising future. Now, one thing that had been documented was that Luigi suffered from debilitating back pain. This was something that he went through. He went through back surgery. And one thing that they say here is that the real enemy here is the medical system. And that is one thing that you can definitely expect his legal team argue.

[Nancy Grace]

Kayla, could I believe you or my lion eyes control room, please show me him running along the beach in Hawaii. I've got videos of him lifting up girls and tickling them. It's a video. They're all giggling hysterically, including him. I've got photos of him lounging by the beach. I'd love to see those photos of him hiking in what looks to be a jungle rainforest. Oh, he is feeling no pain there. Kayla Brantley, I hope you don't fall for that hook like a seeker. Dr. Judy Ho, did you know that Luigi Mangione is apparently the victim in this scenario? Dr. Judy Ho is joining us. Clinical forensic neuropsychologist, author of the New Rules of Attachment and another bestseller, Stop Self Sabotage. You need to write one, Dr. Judy Ho about try to tell the truth and then send it, you know, I'll pay for it. And we can send it to Luigi Mangione. He is not the victim here. But you know, you can't count out the defense attorney, Agna fellow. He got Sean Combs off on the major accusations in that indictment. So no matter how ridiculous I may think he sounds, he essentially won that case. Yes, it's his defense team that claims Luigi Mangione is the victim. I want to read it. Dr. Judy Ho. Beautiful, promising life derailed by those irritating murder charges. Judy.

[Kayla Brantley]

Wow. Beautiful, promising life. Nancy, what a narrative. And as you said, even though he's not the victim, I think this is why there has been a fan base though, because there's these individuals who actually believe maybe he is a victim, that he's some type of antihero, that he's misunderstood. And oftentimes we see this in individuals who might act charismatically. They just seem to pull people in. And it's weird because a lot of these people who develop this sort of fan fanhood around Luigi, they're kind of thinking, well, maybe I can be a special person in his life. Maybe he'll pay attention to me. Maybe I can even develop a friendship with this person. This person might learn to trust me. It's really interesting, but some of it actually has to do with a self centeredness of People who might actually flock to him, that they're hoping to get something special out of it for themselves.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm sorry, Dr. Judy Ho. I know you're the clinical and forensic neuropsychologist, but I don't even know what you just said. How can the defense stand up and say this is not about the murder victim? Can we show, please? Brian Thompson walking along and he's gunned down in cold blood, leaving behind two sons and wife. That's the victim. According to prosecutors, it's Luigi Mangione holding a 3D weapon that he made that it took dozens and dozens of hours to make so he can gun down a guy walking to work in the back.

You stated, I don't know what that was. Dr. Judy Ho. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I'm just a trial lawyer. Didn't understand it, but I think I know some of the people that consider Luigi Mangione to be the victim. And here they are filing in to court. Okay. Oh, what? Luigi fights fascists. Okay? Look at this line. Now. Wait till you see the catwalk parade of sad Satan sack women filing in. They won't even show their face to get a glimpse of Luigi Mangione. Yes. Keep it going, keep it going, because I've got hours of people. Yeah, that was totally walking the catwalk right there. Clamoring to get in to just bask in the glow of Luigi Mangioni. Oh, it keeps going. Yeah, on and on. They had to turn women away. And it's not just women.

[Kayla Brantley]

Listen. So this is who police believe was responsible for the United Healthcare CEO Pew.

[Nancy Grace]

Pew. His name's Luigi.

[Kayla Brantley]

All I can say is, mamma mia, does he need a Mario? I believe it was a great philosopher.

[Nancy Grace]

And poet once said, mama, I'm in love with a criminal. And this type of love isn't rational. It's physical. That was Britney Spears, and I believe.

[Kayla Brantley]

We'Re all feeling that right now.

[Nancy Grace]

I believe if you're gonna do superhero.

[Kayla Brantley]

Like shit, you better look like one.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, this man clearly did that.

[Kayla Brantley]

Did he train at the Marvel Studios with all the other Chris's? Okay, Because Luigi, that's a spicy meatball.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm so sorry.

[Kayla Brantley]

I believe if we're gonna claim to.

[Nancy Grace]

Be a Christian nation, that we need.

[Kayla Brantley]

To act like one.

[Nancy Grace]

And part of acting like that is practicing forgiveness. And after a lot of seconds of thinking, I've decided I'm gonna forgive him. I'm ready to forgive him, right?

[Kayla Brantley]

But not forget. Because, I mean, my God, how Could you forget an angel like this?

[Nancy Grace]

I'm not gonna lie. For a while I thought, oh, my.

[Kayla Brantley]

God, we're never gonna find him, you know?

[Nancy Grace]

And I was wrong. Because somewhere along the way, the ups.

[Kayla Brantley]

And downs, the highs and lows, the masks and no masks, this man, he.

[Nancy Grace]

Found a way into our hearts. He did. I hardly even know where to start with that. That is from Mr. William Sprech on Tick Tock. I'm in love with a criminal and I forgive him. After a few seconds of consideration, Dr. Judy Ho. It.

I can't say it gets worse, but there's more. Listen, you can't take my mind.

And.

[Kayla Brantley]

Say there's blood on his hands when you're the one with the gun.

[Nancy Grace]

Who'S taking lives for fun.

You can't take my man. That's from Scarlet Park, TikTok. So it's gone beyond calling him a spicy meatball. These people actually consider Luigi Mangione their man, and they are angry with the feds for prosecuting. What, Have I gone down the rabbit hole? Am I in some crazy, bizarre Alice in Wonderland? What is happening? Dr. Judy Ho.

[Kayla Brantley]

I know it seems completely unbelievable, Nancy, but this does happen. People start to idolize these potential. I mean, clearly this is a defendant, right? But they're thinking in their minds, this person is innocent. Maybe I'm going to be their special person. And they're lusting after them the way that they would lust after a celebrity, especially when they see photos and videos that they can start cutting into their own social media. They're developing a fictionalized relationship with him, a fantasy, and essentially, completely, completely erasing all of the facts that have been evident in this case. And clearly the defendant's attorneys are trying to paint that picture as well, leaning into it as hard as possible, because they're hoping to influence the public opinion even before a jury is selected so that they can hopefully get him the outcome that he wants, which is apparently to escape a death sentence. Escape prison maybe. I'm not sure exactly what they think is possible. But that's what's so scary about all the positivity that has developed around his Persona. In terms of all of these illustrations, the website they set up about him, it's really concerning.

[Nancy Grace]

And, you know, Cheryl McCollum is joining me. Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, Founder, author of a brand new book, Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer. Solving the Cold Case of the Flint River Killer's Daughter on Amazon. Cheryl, okay, do you remember the night that you and I were out until what, two o' Clock in the morning, staking out a location where we thought, thought Luigi Mangione was going to be apprehended. Do you remember that night? Because I sure do.

[Kayla Brantley]

I do.

[Nancy Grace]

How has this gotten so bass? Acorns?

[Kayla Brantley]

Cheryl Nancy, it is mind boggling that anybody is trying to paint this killer as the victim. I mean, the victim's life was not just promising, it was in full swing. He had a wife and children and a career at the highest level. He had friends and extended family. He had everything going for him. Mangione had none of that. But he took everything from those children. And I'm going to tell you something. When you look at the people that are contacting him, I hope and pray that those 6,000 letters that he's got, that 115 a day, that there's some good intel in there too, because he is writing people back. So he's communicating. And I hope they're listing every piece of it.

[Nancy Grace]

Somehow this has gotten topsy turvy upside down. I haven't even gotten into the legal implications of what is happening in court. I'm just so concerned that one of these nut jobs is going to end up on the ultimate jury and acquit Luigi Mangione under the misconception that he is somehow the victim. Again, in court, his lawyers, and I'm quoting, claim that his beautiful, promising life has been derailed by murder charges. It's all about me, me, me, me, me, me. This is a millionaire's son, multimillionaire, who grew up with a silver spoon stuck in his mouth and has been living in a Hawaii high rise on the beach, doing nothing. And yet he's the victim. Can you imagine, Sheryl McCollum, how hard Thompson had to work to get to become the CEO at United Healthcare? It wasn't handed to him on a silver platter on top of a Christmas tree like it was Mangione. He had to work and sacrifice long, long hours to get to where he got to. To be gunned down like a dog on the sidewalk.

[Kayla Brantley]

Cheryl Nancy, you cannot compare these two people. That's why I agree with you. This whole thing is upside down. Not only did the victim work and sacrifice, so did his wife. You know what it takes. You know how long David has gone during the day. It's not an eight hour day. It's a 16, 17 hour day. He was playing at the top of his game. There's no doubt about it. Mangioni was giving nothing to a family. He was giving nothing to society. He was contributing zero and Again, what he took cannot even be measured.

[Nancy Grace]

If I hear one more person talk about his back pain, that's you, Kayla Brantley. I think my head's going to blow off because I have videos of him tickling these girls and picking them up just before the shooting. I can't show it because it has the girls faces in it, but he was feeling no pain. But it's all about me, me, me, me, me. Why me? And he's certainly not the first. Let me refresh your recollection, as we say in court with Bride Killer Jamie Lee Komorowski. Listen to her. I still just don't know why this.

[Kayla Brantley]

Had to happen to me. Because bad things happen to good people, honey, that's why. It's just. It's just fate. It's just something that happened to you. And we are going to deal with it the best we can.

[Nancy Grace]

Dave Mack, joining me, Crime Stories, investigative reporter. You know who the Bride Killer is, right? Jamie Lee Komorowski. She's guilty. She got totally stinking drunk and plowed into a beautiful bride leaving her wedding reception with the groom and killed her. And there she is behind bars going, why is this happening to me?

[Kayla Brantley]

One look and listen to her father, Nancy. What does he say? Well, bad things happen to good people. No they don't. You just killed somebody because of your own actions. But see, we've got a whole group of people now that never want to admit they did anything wrong. Everything is on them. How can you possibly think Manjoni is sitting here saying his life is derailed? Well, he destroyed another life and another family. Komorowski sitting in jail. Why is this happening to me? Well, why not? What did you expect would happen? Sick of this, Nancy. It's getting really tiresome.

[Nancy Grace]

And there is her victim, Samantha Miller in her wedding dress just before she's mowed down dead by Jamie Lee Komorowski. And here's. I guess this would have to be the Miss Universe of why me? Jodi Arias. Check her out. She is more concerned about her makeup as she is approaching trial in the brutal stabbing and cheating death of her fiance, Travis Alexander, who was stabbed at least 29 times. Jo Scott Morgan and I have argued about that. I say it was more than that. Check it out. Jodi Arias, you should have at least done your makeup before you speak to police about murdering your fiance when he broke up and started seeing someone else. That earlier video from 48 Hours. Jo Scott Morgan, Professor, Forensics. Do you recall Travis Alexander's death? Hey, stay on that video. Because as they're about to question her about what could have happened to Travis Alexander, she starts singing. And there you go. Does a headstand and bemoans the fact she doesn't have on her lip gloss. Talk about me, me, me. Joe Scott, what happened to Travis?

[Kayla Brantley]

Yeah, he was brutally murdered, Nancy. She had him stripped down, n. Taking a shower, taking dirty pictures, if you will. And while his back is turned, she takes a knife and plunges it into his back over and over and over again. When he turns around to defend himself, to try to parry her, stabs at him. He gets stabbed in the chest as well. And if it wasn't enough, after he spits up blood onto his stink, onto his sink, he crawls, tries to crawl away from her down the hallway. She straddles him and cuts his throat from ear to ear. And the coup de grace, she shoots him after he is dead. That's the kind of human that you're looking at right here. She's absolutely disgusting.

[Nancy Grace]

And it's all about me, me, me. Just Scott Morgan, you've seen it all. I'm going to try to show you something you haven't seen yet. Speaking of me, me, me. And criminal defendants focusing only on them victims. There is the drunk, stinking drunk. ADA Assistant District Attorney Devin Flanagan. Listen to her.

But the protocol is, if I ask you to turn off the body cam, you have to turn it off.

[Kayla Brantley]

And that's your protocol.

[Nancy Grace]

She's lawyer, so she knows.

[Kayla Brantley]

Well, that's lawyer stuff, so that's not true. So we gotta go.

[Nancy Grace]

No, it is.

[Kayla Brantley]

That's. That's law. I'm an AG. I'm an A.J. good for you. I don't give a. Let's go.

[Nancy Grace]

Those two were kicked out of. I think it was a bar for being drunk and belligerent. Then you've got. Oh, gosh, she's been called the screaming banshee. And do you hear going, I'm an ada. I'm an ada. Every sentence starts with I, I, I. Listen to this woman, Jo Scott.

[Kayla Brantley]

He needs to not judge me. If he wants to call us all, we're gonna go through that route. No, he wants to go through assault. No, we're not doing that. Then. No, he. He claims I assaulted him. No, we're not doing that. We're not doing that.

[Nancy Grace]

And then, of course, maybe this one beats Jodi Arias. No, no, no. I'm gonna have to go with Luigi Mangioni. And his beautiful life derailed. I'm sure you recall Shayna Hubers that gave her Ex boyfriend, the quote, nose job he always wanted with a handgun.

[Kayla Brantley]

Listen, he's very vain. One of our last conversations we had that was good was that he wants my best friend who's a dentist to do with the nurse and wants to get a nose job. Just that kind of person. And I shot him right here. I gave him his nose job. He wanted.

To marry me. If they know that I killed a boyfriend and helped.

[Nancy Grace]

Not funny.

[Kayla Brantley]

But I'm not your typical murderer, you know.

[Nancy Grace]

Jo, Scott Morgan, professor of forensics and death investigator. Your forte is dead bodies and causes of death and modes of death. Let me go to special guest. Joining us now, Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist. Joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Dr. Angie Arnold. What is that? I don't know if you saw this for yourself, but Mangioni's defensive team is actually arguing his life was derailed by the murder charges.

[Kayla Brantley]

You know, Nancy, my thought is that's all they've got. Who cares if his life was derailed? He is accused of murdering someone. Maybe his life should be derailed. But the way I feel about this is, Nancy, that's all they've got to say. That is the only thing they've got.

[Nancy Grace]

I've seen photos of Luigi Mangione practicing yoga, tickling multiple girls in a hallway all at once. Every shot I see of him, he's out in nature. He's not at work. We keep hearing he quit his job. He was laid off. Gee, I wonder why. Maybe the job interfered with the tickling.

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[Kayla Brantley]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Kayla Brantley]

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[Kayla Brantley]

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[Nancy Grace]

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Throughout this week, Luigi Mangione and his defense team have been fighting it out in court to get a lot of evidence suppressed. Forget about all the sad sack women lined up to get in. Forget about the martyrdom of Luigi Mangione. Let's talk about the facts and the law. Listen.

[Kayla Brantley]

Taking orders as she tells the operator, I have a customer here that some other customers were suspicious of, that he looks like the CEO shooter in New York. And they're just really upset and come to me and I'm like, I can't approach him. The manager continues working and can be heard talking about bagels. At one point shouting, one of them is no butter. The 911 operator, Emily States, testifies about the call and is heard to ask for a description. With the manager replying, the only thing you can see is the eyebrows.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us is Sky Lazaro. She's a veteran criminal defense attorney. She's practicing in both, she's practicing both state and federal court. She is with Ray Quinny and Nebeker. Skye, thank you for being with us. If the defense is arguing that Luigi Mangioni was illegally arrested, the 911 call occurred before the arrest. So what could be the possible grounds for suppressing that call by the McDonald's manager?

[Kayla Brantley]

I think they're going to have a really hard time keeping the 911 call out. I, I can understand it from a defense perspective. You have to try. But when it comes to 911 calls, as long as you can lay the foundation for it, it's probably coming in.

[Nancy Grace]

I can tell you one thing, I know Sky Lazaro, that they hate about this 911 call. We had the same thing happen in the Idaho slayings of four beautiful Idaho University students where Dylan Mortensen described Brian Kohberger's freaky, bushy eyebrows.

[Kayla Brantley]

Listen, remember seeing this figure that was like not fat, obviously, but more of like the skinnier tongue build and some mask on. I don't know what the mask exactly was, but when I thought about it, it was just like covering here and here. I don't know if it's covering his mouth, his nose, or below his mouth and nose. I just remember knowing that he was white, but I didn't know how he was white. I just knew he was. And just knowing there's like, I knew he looked at me because of a bushy eyebrow. That's all I remember.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining me is Tom Smith, former NYPD detective, 30 years now, star of the Gold Shields podcast. And he covered the very same streets where Brian Thompson was gunned down in cold blood. You know, I have had a killer identified. He was a chef by the Way identified by a particular limp that he had. I've had a bank robber identified because he walked slew footed, in other words, like a duck. There are all sorts of ways to identify someone. It can be by voice.

It could be any number of things. In this case, the McDonald's manager said Bushy eyebrows, and there's no doubt that's Luigi Mangione. They hate it. They hate that identification, Tom?

[Kayla Brantley]

Yeah, they do. Because, you know, it shows how important, Nancy, and we did this when we first started talking about this case, how important the videos and all the photos were to get out to the public. Even if his face was covered, even if he was in a cab or whatever it was, because those eyebrows jumped off the page to everyone who looked at it. That was the number one thing that everyone looked at as a, a looking point and identification point when it came to him. And it just showed that the quicker they got those photos out, the better it was in the end of this.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, I'm very curious about this. The fact that he is identified at McDonald's by his eyebrows, among other things. Let's see the pictures of the McDonald's. There you go. There he is at McDonald's. But Scott Lazari, don't you think that the defense should be more concerned about the fact that he can be identified at the time of the killing? He showed his face repeatedly.

[Kayla Brantley]

I agree with you. He probably should have been a little bit more careful at that time. And that should be the stuff they're seeking to exclude. And maybe they will. I think as it goes to the 911 call, the defense's probably only argument is that these are witnesses who identified him not from the shooting. They weren't there that night. So they can't say I saw him do the shooting. They just want to exclude it because he's at the McDonald's. The problem is they get to the McDonald's and it turns out to be him.

[Nancy Grace]

Speaking of getting to the McDonald's, the defense is arguing that while he wasn't really under arrest, he was kind of under arrest because so many police started showing up and massing at the McDonald's. They were concerned, if this is Luigi Mangione, the health care assassin, he's probably armed. As a matter of fact, he was. He was armed. There was a weapon in his backpack sitting right there with him. So they were. Right now what the defense is arguing is that having multiple police, multiple police officers show up is tantamount equal to arresting him. Why do we care? Because police engage in A conversation with him to identify him.

And he spilled a lot of information in that conversation. The state says it was before his arrest. Why does it matter? Because a statement taken while you are in custody without Miranda will be suppressed. So they want the judge to believe that because several police officers showed up at McDonald's that Mangioni was effectively under arrest and any statements he made pre Miranda should be suppressed. That's not going to happen. When I walk into let's just pretend a Chipotle and all the Atlanta PD are in there getting a salad. I don't feel like I'm under arrest. Think about it. Listen.

[Kayla Brantley]

Manjoni stares at monitors showing his arrest at McDonald's. Manjoni sits the breakfast at 9:03. Eleven minutes later, the 911 call is made. 9:28, Two police officers show up and begin talking to Mangione. The restaurant slowly begins to fill with police until 9:42, when at least eight officers are visible on the recording. The defense claims packing the place with police amounts to unlawful detention prior to Mangione's arrest. Agnifolo argues police surrounding MANGIONE and the McDonald's is tantamount to illegally detaining the alleged killer. Agniphilo also takes exception with the way officers treated Mangioni's backpack during the arrest, claiming it was warrantlessly searched on the scene.

[Nancy Grace]

In other words, they looked in his backpack. Cheryl McCollum joining me. She is not only a crime scene investigator and founder of the Cold Case Research Institute, but she is also the star of a hit podcast which I actually put on a loop sometimes. Sheryl McCollum, zone seven. Cheryl McCollum, has it ever dawned on you when you go into McDonald's for a cup of coffee that you're arresting somebody, that your mere presence equals an arrest? Because that's what they're arguing and what they're trying to do, Cheryl, is get out from under what Mangione said to police pre Miranda and them finding evidence in his backpack.

[Kayla Brantley]

I think the body cam is going to be so critical here because it's going to show all of his action. It's going to, you know, show the world that he stood up and thought he was under arrest. Only a guilty person would think that. Nancy what the defense is doing is they're basically, look, you use manure to make something grow, right? So they are planting and cultivating and trying to grow this story that he's the victim, that he didn't do anything, that he was under arrest. So now we can't Use anything. And it's just bs.

[Nancy Grace]

While this legal warfare is taking place in a courtroom, Mangione's attorneys continue to insist that he's the victim.

[Kayla Brantley]

He's a young man and he is being treated like a human ping pong ball between two warring jurisdictions here. And they are literally treating him like.

[Nancy Grace]

He is like some sort of political.

[Kayla Brantley]

Fodder, like some sort of spectacle. He was on display for everyone to see in the biggest staged perp walk I've ever seen in my career. There was no reason for the NYPD and everybody to have these big assault rifles that frankly, I had no idea was in their arsenal. And to have all of these, the press there, the media there, it was like perfectly choreographed. And what was the New York City mayor doing at this press conference? He is a walking, talking contradiction. He supposedly is again, this wealthy CEO, yet he comes from money.

[Nancy Grace]

This is a guy living in a high rise in Honolulu waking up to the beach every morning. Did you wake up to a beach view this morning? Because I sure did not. The Luigi Mangione defense is fighting tooth and nail to keep out what happening that McDonald's. And as Cheryl McCollum has pointed out, that body cam is going to be so significant because it doesn't matter what the state says, it doesn't matter what the defense says or how much Luigi Mangione claims he's the victim. What matters is what really happened inside that McDonald's. They're not going to get the 911 call suppressed. That's not happening. But what happened in the McDonald's? Is the state going to lose valuable evidence on illegal technicality? Why is it they want that backpack suppressed? Straight out to investigator at large for DailyMail.com, kayla Brantley. What was in the backpack.

[Kayla Brantley]

Nancy? There was a 3D printed gun. It's a handgun. Which is believed to could possibly be the murder weapon. There was a notebook with handwritten notes in it. Then he also had a knife on him, which was discovered about 20 minutes later. So he was armed. And. And at that point he was considered very dangerous.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, hold on. What did you say was written in Mangione's spiral notebook that was in his backpack that he wanted?

[Kayla Brantley]

And he used the word whack, the health care CEO. Whack meaning kill, hurt, destroy.

[Nancy Grace]

No wonder they want it suppressed. To Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Tell me about the 3D gun, sometimes called a ghost gun.

[Kayla Brantley]

Well, Nancy, you know, we've been. We have not been given the very specifics of what type of gun we know it's a pistol, but we don't know the exact name of it. 3D printed firearms take a massive amount of time and filament far more than any other. The Liberator is the most common and it's the easiest one to print and takes the shortest amount of time. The Liberator takes 30 hours of constant printing with non stop printing. Nancy, 30 hours to print the easiest of all the pistols.

[Nancy Grace]

Tom Smith. Here's the thing with a ghost gun. It's made on a 3D printer, Tom. It's unserialized. That's why they're so popular amongst criminals. You think grandpa has his long gun, his shotgun under the bed? You think it's a 3D printed gun? No, it's got a serial number. Why is it so serious that a ghost gun is unserialized?

[Kayla Brantley]

Well, because you can't trace it. No matter what you do with that weapon, it cannot be traced back to you. And that is why so many criminals, and Luigi Maggione, of course, went to the lengths that he did to make that gun, because that is the predetermined and premeditation of it already. He's already thinking ahead of that gun not being traced to him. And that is part of this as well.

[Nancy Grace]

Tom Smith, you're exactly correct. To Joseph Scott Morgan. Let me introduce him formally. He is a professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University with an incredible criminal procedure program. He's the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is a death investigator that has handled thousands of death scenes. And he's the star of hit podcast Body Bags of Joe Scott Morgan.

Joe Scott, what is a suppressor or commonly known as a silencer?

[Kayla Brantley]

Yeah, I stay away from the term silencer because no weapon is silenced. It is suppressed. That means that the crack of the sound, you're talking about a perhaps supersonic round, it's traveling, you know, past the speed of sound. So what you want to do is reduce that sound that's put forth from the muzzle. If you take a close look. I'm glad that you have that image. You take a close look at that weapon there. The end of that muzzle is actually threaded. What that means is, is that it's adaptable. It's adaptable to contain a suppressor. The suppressor is displayed here. It's that long, black, cylindrical object there. It can be screwed in. Well, you want to knock down the sound. So it's not going to draw attention to you when you fire this thing. Because let's just say that it is a Non suppressed weapon. This thing's going to echo through the canyons down there in Manhattan, through all of those buildings. You'll still hear a sound, but it'll be a slight crack. It's not like it's portrayed in movies. Okay, but it will reduce the sound. It doesn't completely eliminate it. And the purpose of this is so that you're not going to draw attention to anyone. It does reduce, say, some of the capabilities of the weapon as far as the effectiveness of it at a greater range. But this is, this is not a close range. As a matter of fact, if we were to look at the body here, it would be classified as indeterminate because you're not going to have any kind of soot deposition gun, unpurned gunpowder, it will have fallen away by that time. But this is not too distant of a shot. You'll still have that same muzzle velocity striking into Brian Thompson's body. It's effectively lethal.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining me now, the star of Zone 7 podcast, Cheryl McCollum is with us. Cheryl, who has unserialized guns and silencers, criminals.

[Kayla Brantley]

And Nancy, there's another thing. Even though this is a 3D printed weapon, it's still going to leave markings on capen and they're going to be able to be, you know, determined that this weapon fired the bullet that murdered Brian Thompson. So forensically it's not going to get you out of trouble. They may not can trace it to a manufacturer, to a buyer, but they can absolutely determine that that bullet was fired by that weapon.

[Nancy Grace]

Cheryl McCollum, you're so right. And Tom Smith, this is like a fish in water for you. Every day you were getting off the streets of Manhattan, guns to match with bullets, bullets that were literally dug out of victims bodies. And Cheryl said it right, A bullet hurls down the barrel of a gun, that gun might look like all the other guns in the gun store showcase, but it's not. Because inside the barrel, the metal has cooled in a certain way and it leaves ridges and imperfections on the inside of the barrel. And as that bullet shoots down the barrel, it is forever marked by those imperfections. So when you take the murder weapon to the crime lab and you shoot a bullet through the murder weapon and you take the known bullet dug out of the victim and you put it under a microscope next to the one you just shot, it's like a fingerprint. No other gun, be it a 3D printed gun, a grandma's Bessie's out from under her mattress, you can track and identify like a Fingerprint. That bullet came from that gun, isn't that true?

[Kayla Brantley]

100%. And that's the best way to say it. It's, it's the gun's fingerprint and the ballistic check of that in the twist marks and all of that is what you match up. And it is a fingerprint that is unmatchable, you know, to anyone else. It is strictly to that weapon that you will match up the weapon taken or the round taken out of the victim and match it up. And that is damaging when it comes to court.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, yeah, and Tom Smith. That is why they are fighting to the death in court to keep that jury from ever knowing of a ballistics match, that his 3D printed gun is the murder weapon. Listen to Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan district Attorney.

[Kayla Brantley]

For nearly an hour, we alleged the defendant waited in the area near the Hilton hotel waiting for Mr. Thompson to appear. From 6:38am to 6:44am the defendant stood across from the entrance of the hotel on West 54th Street. When he saw Mr. Thompson, he crossed the street and approached him from behind. We allege he then took out a 9 millimeter 3D printed ghost gun equipped with a 3D printed suppressor and shot him once in the back and once in the leg.

[Nancy Grace]

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[Kayla Brantley]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Kayla Brantley]

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[Nancy Grace]

Other media, even twice as many teens than TikTok. And that reach means everything.

[Kayla Brantley]

Just think about the universal marketing formula. The number of consumers who hear your message times the response rate equals the results.

[Nancy Grace]

Now let's get those results growing for your business. Radio's here now more than ever. And iheart's leading the way.

[Kayla Brantley]

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[Nancy Grace]

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

What about his beat bum life? Just before the assassination, right around the.

[Kayla Brantley]

Time he disappeared, he traipsed off to Asia and he went on a backpacking trip.

[Nancy Grace]

The beach bum photos and the $2,000 a month high rise and the frolicking in Honolulu. Oh my goodness. He might as well have bumped up with the wrist. Kayla Brantley, Daily Mail. The defense for Luigi Mangioni is also trying to suppress statements he allegedly made to his guards. He had special guards behind bars so nothing would happen to him like it did to Epstein. So let's first talk about Thomas Rivers, the former British infantryman who is minding Mangione. What did Mangioni allegedly say to Rivers?

[Kayla Brantley]

Nancy Luigi was held for 10 days in Pennsylvania and he had spoken about being very disappointed. Disappointed that he was being compared to the Unabomber. He also said that mainstream media was more focused on crime and that when you looked at social media, they were really more focused about the healthcare industry, which according to this officer, is what Luigi said this was really about.

[Nancy Grace]

Wow. Sounds like a confession to me. Skylazaro. Oopsie.

[Kayla Brantley]

Nancy I agree and disagree. Here's the problem. They put these guys in a situation like that in solitary where they can't talk to anybody else. And the other thing is that we know these officers didn't document any of this. They're supposed to be taking notes seven times an hour about what he's doing and his well being and they don't write down anything like he just made an omission.

[Nancy Grace]

Skylazaro did you say it's a problem he's being held in solitary? You know who else is in solitary? Brian Thompson. Except his is a casket.

So you're telling me again, I can't believe you're buying into this guy Lazaro, that he's the one that's being tormented. You know what else he told Rivers? That Rivers should really read? Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley, which is all about psychedelic drug trips and mystical interpretations. Needless to say, Rivers did not read the book. But there is another guard that he talked to. This is the one I'm really interested in.

[Kayla Brantley]

Listen, Officer Matt Henry wasn't chatty with the alleged killer. That doesn't stop Manjoni from telling Henry he was caught with a 3D printed firearm, the weapon used to murder CEO Brian Thompson. Attorney Mark Agnifolo challenges Henry saying, so he just blurted out to you that he had a 3D printed pistol? Henry dryly replies yes.

[Nancy Grace]

To Dr. Angela Arnold joining us. She's a renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta [e-mail] Former professor of psychiatry. It goes on and on. Former medical director at the Psychiatric OBGYN Clinic at Grady, which never has a lack of business. I found a lot of witnesses and victims at Grady Hospital. Dr. Angela Arnold. Why is it so hard? I bet a jury's not going to have a hard time believing this. That Luigi mangione who has had a lifetime of entitlement, would blab to his guards, why? They're his new friends. They would never betray him. Right?

[Kayla Brantley]

Yeah. Oh, sure. And you know, Nancy, he probably suffers from some sort of personality disorder in which he thinks about himself an awful lot. So he really doesn't. He may not see that he's done anything wrong, and he probably hasn't suffered any consequences for any of his actions in the past. And so that would make him more likely to almost be bragging about what he's done and to let other people know what he's done. This is typical for his behavior, in all likelihood, throughout his existence.

[Nancy Grace]

Tom Smith joining me, former NYPD detective, 30 years now, star co host of Gold Shields podcast. Tom, what is wrong with rich people? Do they think they can just get away with everything? Anything and everything they can confess, they can say, yeah, they caught me with the 3D printed gun, which is the murder weapon.

What is wrong with them? Have you noticed the same sense of entitlement sometimes does them in because they think they can buy off everybody, that everybody wants to be their friend, but these two guards do not want to be his friend.

[Kayla Brantley]

Yeah, they've lived their whole life like this, Nancy. You know, they've gotten what they wanted, they need to pay for it, or the power that they have has influenced someone's decision into what they're getting or what they're doing. And they just think that holds true for every aspect of their life, including killing someone. I mean, that's how deranged they are when it comes to the entitlement that they believe they are owed when it comes to murder or, you know, killing a bride. We did that show, you know, it's just constant, and it just keeps coming up, and it's absolutely disgusting.

[Nancy Grace]

Tom, I want you to look at a picture. If I can get the controller to put it up for me. Dig through those files. I want to see the picture. Allegedly, Mangioni, who is presumed innocent, holding up the 3D with the silencer on it, pointing directly at Brian Thompson's back. According to police, he waited an hour for just the right moment. There's his backpack, which was recovered at the McDonald's. There's his outfit, which he had with him. There's the 3D weapon. And let's look at Brian Thompson walking along early morning, going to a work conference. He shot in the back right there. And I'm not going to play that when he actually gets shot, because someday, somehow, his boys might look this up online. And I don't want this to be stuck in their memory.

Kayla Brantley, Were any of Mangioni's family members in court and were any of the victim's family members in court this week?

[Kayla Brantley]

Not that we know of, Nancy, but a lot of Luigi's supporters.

[Nancy Grace]

And one thing, have you heard of Pretty Privilege?

[Kayla Brantley]

Because it absolutely feels like Luigi is benefiting from that by having hordes of fans because he is a handsome man, that he is benefiting from Pretty Privilege and I'm sure his defense team is happy that they have a relatively attractive man as a client.

[Nancy Grace]

Keala I don't find him attractive. Every time I look at him, I see a tail swishing in the back and two horns right here. That's what I see. What is happening in court this week is critical. If this evidence is suppressed, there may be no justice in this case. A man shot down on the sidewalk on video and no justice.

We wait as justice unfolds. But now we remember an American hero. Reserve Deputy Sheriff John Stahl, Jefferson County Sheriff's, Indiana killed in the line of duty after 15 years of service, leaving behind a devastated wife turned widow. American hero. Reserve Deputy Sheriff John Stahl, Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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