DESPERATE SEARCH FOR BABY AFTER YOUNG MOM REBECCA, 22, FOUND DEAD IN WOODS, INFANT CUT FROM STOMACH

Summary

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Detailed Summary: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: DESPERATE SEARCH FOR BABY AFTER YOUNG MOM REBECCA, 22, FOUND DEAD IN WOODS, INFANT CUT FROM STOMACH
Air Date: December 8, 2025
Podcast: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Overview

In this harrowing episode, Nancy Grace and her panel investigate one of the most chilling recent true crime cases: the murder of 22-year-old Rebecca Park, a pregnant mother found dead in Michigan’s Manistee National Forest. In a shocking twist, her baby, days from delivery, was cut from her womb and is missing. The episode explores the details of Rebecca’s disappearance, the history of similar crimes, forensic challenges, potential motives, and the emotional devastation left in the wake, all while the desperate search for her infant, Richie, continues.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Crime and Initial Discovery

• Case Introduction:
  Nancy Grace opens the discussion with her signature urgency, underscoring the brutality of the case and the dire search for baby Richie.

  “The desperate search goes on for a baby after a young mom to be Rebecca, just 22 years old, is found dead in a heavily wooded area, her infant cut from her stomach. What ghouls would do this?”
  — Nancy Grace [02:15]

• Victim Background: Rebecca, a loving mother of two boys, vanishes days before her due date.

  “Just days away from giving birth, disappears, her body found... At first all we knew was the baby wasn’t there. Now we know the baby has been cut from her stomach, leaving the mom to die, bleed out in the woods. Where’s the baby?”
  — Nancy Grace [02:57]

Medical Realities and Forensic Analysis

• Viability of the Baby:
  Death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan details the grim practicality: a baby delivered at 38 weeks is viable, and such crimes have historical precedent.

  “That’s well beyond survivability... it’s certainly possible, it’s plausible that this could happen... You can have ghouls... that would want to go and harvest a baby in order to sell it on the market.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan [04:39]

• Historical Parallels:
  The panel references previous infamous cases, e.g., Michelle Wilkins in Colorado, Marlen Ochoa Lopez in Chicago, and Bobbi Jo Stinnett in Missouri, all involving mothers attacked and their babies stolen.

  “That scenario has played out... Michelle Wilkins actually lived long enough to call 911...”
  — Nancy Grace [05:23-06:09]

• Forensic Details of the Crime Scene:

  • The scene is remote and brutally cold, complicating both survival and investigation.
  • Amateur surgical procedure likely caused massive trauma; the lack of medical tools suggests a bloody, haphazard process resulting in rapid death by exsanguination.

  “They’re going to use tools at hand... knives... you’re going to talk about erupting a multitude of vessels... She would bleed out in this environment. That’s really no surprise.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan [15:59, 28:59, 29:07]

Defense Theories and Rebuttal

• Raised by Randolph Rice, Defense Attorney:
  • Posits (however unlikely) the possibility Rebecca self-inflicted her wounds in a “natural birth” gone wrong.
  • Promptly and vigorously rebutted by the entire panel for being unrealistic and outlandish.

  “To believe what you just said would mean that Rebecca goes out in a heavily wooded area and chooses the dirt... to perform a self induced cesarean section. Is that what you’re claiming?”
  — Nancy Grace [08:20]

Victim and Motive Exploration

• Rebecca’s Background:

  • Adopted from an abusive mother (Courtney Bartholomew), raised by Stephanie Park in a stable home.
  • Despite this, Rebecca rekindles a relationship with her biological mother, driven by a universal desire to understand one’s origins.

  “We all want to know where we came from, Nancy. This is one of the fundamental biological drives...”
  — Dr. Sherry Schwartz [32:44]

• Mother’s Premonition:

  • Adoptive mom tried to warn Rebecca against reconnecting, with panelists noting the commonality and risk of ignoring such intuitions.

  “Sometimes you have to let people find their own way. But this is a case that is not unusual... parents feel it strongly for those they love. And we can see things sometimes that people themselves can’t see.”
  — Dan Murphy [34:55]

• Motive:
  Prosecutors suggest the biological mother and her partner may have plotted the murder to obtain the baby, after repeated failed pregnancies.

  “Ms. Bartholomew brought Rebecca to their home. They forced her into another vehicle and took her into the woods where they stabbed her, forced her to lie on the ground while they cut her baby out and ultimately caused her death.”
  — Wexford County Prosecutor Joanna Carey [45:26]

Investigative Challenges

• Crime Scene Complexity:

  • The area where Rebecca was found is described as beautiful but unforgiving, especially in winter.
  • Debate over whether Rebecca was killed there or her body dumped postmortem; body remained unfound only 150 yards from her abandoned phone for three weeks.

• Forensic Obstacles:

  • Cold weather impacts decomposition, animal activity further mutilated remains, and absence of cellphone at the scene is probative.

  “Shoots Randolph Rice’s theory that she had a natural birth. Shoots it to hell and back because who’s going to go through all that and their cell phone is not with them.”
  — Nancy Grace [36:17]

  • The panel speculates that law enforcement’s clear chronological scenario and assertion the baby is dead may indicate inside cooperation from a witness.

  “They seem to have a scenario of what happened... tells me somebody is cooperating.”
  — Alan L’Engle [47:47]

Emotional & Societal Impact

• Panel’s Emotional Response:

  • Repeatedly, seasoned professionals express profound disturbance at the brutality.

  “This is the stuff that makes even veteran detectives want to have a drink or five... you want to wash it out of your brain.”
  — Dan Murphy [20:40] “Even just reading about this story can give someone... chills. A cold, hard reminder of just how brutal people can be.”
  — Dan Murphy [22:10]

• Nancy’s Personal Connection:

  • Nancy relates the toll these cases take, sharing her own experiences of overwhelming grief and needing to compose herself away from the public eye.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Nature of the Crime:

  “Can you say death penalty? Because I can.”
  — Nancy Grace [02:15]

• On the Forensics:

  “It’s not just what is taken, it’s what’s left behind... The trauma, Nancy, that she sustained out there on that filthy, filthy ground in that beautiful forested area is something that we cannot even begin to calculate.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan [15:59]

• On Defensive Legal Strategies:

  “Don’t ruin your currently stellar reputation, okay?... Is that what you’re claiming would be a great defense?”
  — Nancy Grace to Randolph Rice [08:20]

• On Grief and Emotional Response:

  “I would pull over and stop the car and just feel sick or cry... And that’s how I feel about what happened to Rebecca in this case.”
  — Nancy Grace [21:34]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Case Introduction & Initial Crime Facts: [02:15–04:39]
• Expert Panel Discussion on Forensic Possibilities: [04:39–06:09]
• Historical Precedents of Similar Crimes: [05:23, 14:26, 46:27]
• Defense Theories Debated: [07:27–09:07]
• Forensic Scene Details and Medical Analysis: [15:17–17:57, 28:21–30:24]
• Discovery of Rebecca & Search for Baby Richie: [25:44, 31:01, 35:47]
• Victim’s Background & Motivational Insights: [31:19–34:20]
• Adoptive Family’s Warnings & Emotional Impact: [34:20–35:47]
• Crime Scene Search Complexities: [41:04–43:51]
• Suspect Alibis & Law Enforcement Statements: [44:31–45:14]
• Prosecutor’s Theory of the Crime & Motive: [45:26–47:47]
• Reflections on Societal and Personal Impact: [20:33–22:10, 21:34–22:39]

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Closing Notes & Action

• The episode closes with a public plea for tips on the whereabouts of baby Richie, underlining the ongoing nature of the investigation and the hope, though slim, that he might be found alive.

“If you know or think you know anything regarding the death of Rebecca or anything about her missing baby, please call Wexford Sheriff’s 231-779-9216. The investigation is ongoing.”
— Nancy Grace [50:18]

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Summary Prepared For:
Listeners or researchers seeking a comprehensive recap of this deeply unsettling, highly detailed Crime Stories episode, with insight into the crime, investigative theory, psychological motivations, and emotional toll on all involved.

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human streaming December 11th on Paramount. Plus is the new limited series Little Disasters. Based on the book by the author of Anatomy of a Scandal and starring Diane Kruger and Joe Joyner, Little Disasters is a gripping story of unraveling secrets and fractured relationships that will leave you on the edge of your seat. Bella magazine declares. If you loved Big Little Lies, then this psychological drama is for you. Little Disasters binge on all episodes December 11th on Paramount.

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[Nancy Grace]

His hot air balloon all the way to the bottom of the ocean.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

The desperate search goes on for a baby after a young mom to be Rebecca, just 22 years old, is found dead in a heavily wooded area, her infant cut from her stomach. What ghouls would do this? Can you say death penalty? Because I can. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[Dave Mack]

Rebecca Park, a 22 year old mother from Wexford county, is eagerly anticipating the arrival of her third child. She is a devoted mom of two young boys, but as her due date approaches, Rebecca misses the birth of her baby and vanishes.

[Nancy Grace]

It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming to me. A 22 year old mom, to be just days away from giving birth, disappears, her body found in a heavily wooded area. At first all we knew was the baby wasn't there. Now we know the baby has been cut from her stomach, leaving the mom to die, bleed out in the woods. Where's the baby? Straight out to Professor Forensics death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. Joining us, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet and star of a hit podcast Body Bags with Jo Scott Morgan. Jo Scott, this is not the first time we have seen this scenario and you and I both remember the first time it came to the forefront of national headlines and it was in the Scott Peterson case when one of the theories that defense attorney Martin Garrigos floated out there. I believe he first put it out there on the Larry King show to just see test the waters and it bombed was that someone had taken Lacey, had cut the baby out of her stomach. Connor, baby boy Connor. And that the whole thing was about getting the baby and possibly selling the baby. And we were all like no, that would never happen. That's too far fetched. Well, Joe Scott, it's not too far fetched. So can a baby live when it's there's I think Rebecca only had a few days before she was set to deliver. Could the baby live if it's cut out of the mom's stomach?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Sure. You're talking about a mother that said a the baby is at a 30, allegedly at a 38 week gestational age. That's well beyond survivability. You know, when you begin to think about this, it's certainly possible, it's plausible that this could happen. It I got to tell you Nancy, out of all the cases that we've covered in recent memory, this is one of the most horrific when you begin to think about what she endured. So yes, with a child like this, I have no other way to put it, you can have ghouls as you put it out there, that would want to go and harvest a baby in order to sell it on the market. And that can, that is plausible. I think and I think that that's something that needs to be explored in this case.

[Nancy Grace]

Just Scott, you could not be more correct. Sadly, the case we're covering tonight of Rebecca set to give birth in just days, found dead, baby cut out of stomach, is not the first time this scenario has played out. I don't know if you recall Michelle Wilkins. I remember. Listen.

[Dave Mack]

Cotter sentenced Dinell Lane to 100 years in prison for faking her own pregnancy, then luring Michelle Wilkins into her home and cutting Wilkins almost full term baby out of her womb.

[Alan L'Engle]

I've never seen A case as vicious, as cruel, as deliberate, and as awful as this case.

[Dave Mack]

Because of Colorado laws, the majority of charges in this case were related to Wilkins injuries, not the harm inflicted on the unborn child.

[Nancy Grace]

That from CHHCVJ on tick tock, a perfect capsulation. But in this case, Michelle Wilkins actually lived long enough to. Call 91 1. Listen, 91 1.

[Dave Mack]

Address of your emergency. Okay, What? Tell me what happened.

Who cut you? I don't know. Okay, hold on. Hang on. Hold on, please. I'm downstairs.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, who caught you?

To Dave Mack. Joining me, crime Stories, investigative reporter Dave Mack. I understand in that case, Michelle Wilkins had gone online to a baby chat group. How did she meet her killers?

[Dave Mack]

Dave Mack, the killer actually lured her with maternity clothes. Come on by, I'll hook you up. You know, one of those things that happens in those chat rooms is there are women who are going through the same thing at the same time and they quickly bond. And that's how she lured her over and invited her into the house. Up until the moment she's attacked, she thinks she's there to pick up some maternity clothes.

[Nancy Grace]

To Randolph Rice, joining us, a former prosecutor, current criminal defense attorney and civil lawyer at Rice Law.

What do you do? How do you defend ghouls like this? Now, in this case, the mom lived, and all the other cases we are covering tonight, the mom died. And in many of them, the baby died.

[Randolph Rice]

My first question, Nancy, is was this a natural birth that somehow went wrong and maybe, maybe Rebecca park was trying to cut the baby out herself? That may be a defense.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, what did you just say?

[Randolph Rice]

It's possible in this situation, as a defense attorney, that they may argue that this was somehow a natural birth, that Rebecca park may have potentially tried to cut the baby out herself.

[Nancy Grace]

Randolph Rice. Okay, don't, don't ruin your currently stellar reputation, okay? Because to believe what you just said would mean that Rebecca park goes out in a heavily wooded area and chooses the dirt on the ground to perform a self induced cesarean section. Is that what you're claiming would be a great defense?

[Randolph Rice]

I'm open to all defenses right now, Nancy, because I just don't know enough information. And this is the thing that the defense attorney has to explore. They're going to have to figure out was this natural, was this intentional or is this caused by somebody else? And we don't know who that somebody else may be because that person may not be around or the victim rather can't speak and tell us who did this. If that's the case, yes, because she's.

[Nancy Grace]

Dead to Alan l' Engle joining us. Alan, thank you for being with us tonight. He's the editor at Deadline Detroit. It's an online daily, formerly with the Washington Post. Alan, again, thank you for being with us. In response to what Randolph Rice said, and please don't hold it against him, because very often defense attorneys are between a rock and a hard spot. Okay. Their client is charged with murdering the mom. The mom is lying out in a wooded area, densely wooded area, with her stomach cut open. What else can he argue tonight? They're looking for the baby, if it survived. Could you describe for Randolph Rice the location where. Oh, my stars. You just had to hit me with that. There's a sonogram. There is. Rebecca's sonogram. For the baby boy. For her little baby boy. She had already picked out the name Richie. Baby Richie. The name was discovered by friends of Rebecca's. Richard Scott Lee was to be his full name. Is he still alive? So you know, Alan l', Engle, if you could explain to Randolph Rice the location where Rebecca's body was found, sliced open. I doubt very seriously that she chose a heavily wooded area to give birth. Cesarean. To top it all off.

[Alan L'Engle]

She was found in the Manistee National Forest up in Northern Michigan, which is a beautiful area. People go there during the.

[Dave Mack]

Better.

[Alan L'Engle]

During the summer months for canoeing, camping, fishing. I mean, it's. It's. It's a beautiful place. It's a rural, very rural area. And people from all around the state and. And from Illinois and Ohio come. Come up there. And in the winter, they're skiing up that way. It's a beautiful forest. I mean, if. But, I mean, the. I mean, the fact is, just to punch a little hole into that defense is that if. If the abortion or if the birth went wrong, why would you leave the body and, you know, abandon the body there? There's no.

You would call for help. You would call for emergency, you know, EMS or whatever.

[Nancy Grace]

Who. Who would call for help in emergency? Are you talking about the pregnant mother? Wait, hold on.

[Alan L'Engle]

No, no, I'm saying the people, if they were.

[Nancy Grace]

I asked you to describe the location.

[Alan L'Engle]

Sure.

[Nancy Grace]

Where Rebecca died, Where she bled out.

[Alan L'Engle]

Right, right.

[Nancy Grace]

I don't even believe I'm having this discussion, but I guess I have to under Randolph Rice's theory that. That she voluntarily, naturally gave birth or planned to give birth out in this federal forest. Okay. You're talking about how beautiful it is. Could you tell me. You were talking about camping and fishing and swimming. What's the temperature out there right now tonight.

[Alan L'Engle]

ALAN lingle, Tonight, it's probably, I mean, up north there, it's, it's probably in the lower teens. I mean, right now it's, it's very cold in all, all of Michigan and in northern Michigan, it's usually colder. So it's, it's pretty, pretty frigid weather there, Alan.

[Nancy Grace]

It's 16 degrees at night where she was found. I mean, what, you, you know what, let me go to Dr. Sherry Schwartz, the only other woman joining me tonight on the panel. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist, speaker, specializing in cases just like this. She's at panther mitigation.com She's a prolific author, but one of them and my, my favorite. It's where law and psychology intersect.

Dr. Sherry Schwartz, what woman in her right mind would go out in 16 degree temperature and give birth in the dirt in the forest alone, then realize she needs a C section and cut the baby out? This is insane.

It is insane. And only if she was actively psychotic would she even entertain anything like that. But I haven't heard any reports that she suffered from any sort of mental illness like that. Again, we don't have a lot of information, but that's highly, highly unlikely. You know, we were talking earlier with Dave Mack, Jo, Scott Morgan about how one victim had been lured in one of those online chat rooms about giving birth, and that is where her killers met her. But very often the killer is someone known by the victim. Just got, I don't know if you recall another similar victim, Marlon Ochoa Lopez. Listen, these two killed a pregnant teen and cut the baby out of her womb and took it for themselves. Marlon Ochoa Lopez was part of a Facebook group for pregnant mothers, and they were all kind of like a support group with each other. She became friends with this lady right here. Her name is Clarissa Figueroa. They became friends.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

They came over for tea one day.

[Nancy Grace]

So Ochoa Lopez went over to Figueroa's for tea and that was the last time everyone heard from her. Desiree Figueroa is her daughter on the right, and she helped murder this pregnant teen and cut the baby out of her womb. That is from Harender Singh on TikTok. Joe Scott, I want you to hear the rest of the facts to Dave Mack. These two invite the pregnant mom over for tea and she ends up dead. What happened in that scenario?

[Dave Mack]

In this particular case, the pretense was they were offering her free baby clothes. And, you know, for many new mothers, that's a big priority. You've got to have children Clothing for the children. It does get expensive, and so Marlene was excited at the opportunity to get some free clothing. That's how they got her in there.

[Nancy Grace]

Back to you, Jo. Scott Morgan, knowing what you now know, I want to talk to you about what exactly happened in the Case in Chief tonight. The search is ongoing for her little baby, Richie, if he survived. And I would think that his body would have been found by now if he had died in the process, because you explained to me how this happened. How would an amateur cesarean section take place? And we have reason to believe that Rebecca was alive when the baby, baby Richie, was torn from her uterus.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah. Hey, that was a really beautiful area in Michigan there. I've actually been there fishing before, one of the most lovely areas in the United States. But I got to tell you something, Nancy, you know what? I didn't see a labor and delivery room. I didn't see an area that is prepped in order to facilitate a cesarean. So what are you going to do this with? Well, in order to do this, I doubt that they're going to show up with retractors. They're not going to have scalpels. They're probably not going to have surgical scissors. Scissors, these sorts of things. So they're going to use tools at hand that they have. We're talking about things like knives that you bring in from home, any kind of other cutting instrument that might be available, and they're going to leave her out there. They're going to take her at that spot, perhaps, and extricate this baby from her womb. Now, they probably know enough that they're going to have to keep her alive so that the child is going to be viable. And that is a very, very tough passage to go through, because if you do not have medical training to facilitate this, you're not only going to have a dead mom, you're going to have a dead baby on your hand. If the purpose of this is to take this child and sell it on the market, there's going to be evidence that's left behind. Also, to go back to this idea that this may have been some kind of natural birth. We all know for those of us that are not in the medical field, that I've been present for the birth of all of my precious children, we do know that if it's a vaginal delivery, you've also got to push out the placenta. You're going to be looking for an umbilical cord, those sorts of things, so you can kind of go back and examine the scene from that perspective, to see what is left behind. It's not just what is taken, it's what's left behind. And the trauma, Nancy, that she sustained out there on that filthy, filthy ground in that beautiful forested area is something that we cannot even begin to calculate.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining me right now is Dan Murphy, former NYPD detective sergeant. He was on the Joint Terrorism task force, former chief security officer, US Bancorp, and he is the co host, star of Gold Shields podcast. He's also an author. Dan, you and I. Joe Scott, many people on the panel tonight have cast iron stomachs. We have to after what we've seen on crime scenes. But I want to brace you for what you're about to hear regarding the victim. In the case in Chief, there are two victims. There's Rebecca about to give birth, 22 years old.

And there's her baby, Baby Richie. We don't know where he is tonight.

Okay, I want you to hear what one of the witnesses says.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

That has.

[Nancy Grace]

Seen the body and brace yourself. I'm gonna walk up to her and.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

Yes, the animals have eight at her cheeks, but her face is all there.

[Nancy Grace]

The animals and her stomach. And there's their stomach studded. So the baby's not there. I don't think so. I don't think I got.

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I got this close.

[Nancy Grace]

I mean, it's.

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

Oh, okay. Okay. From Jax s on Tick tock, Dan Murphy. Other than this beautiful girl. She's 22, Dan.

About to give birth. Just days away from giving birth.

Out there in the woods, her stomach gutted open. And these witnesses are describing how there has been, as Joe Scott likes to say, animal activity on her body. To top it all off.

Animals have gotten to her out in the wilderness that all of our guests are describing. This beautiful, idyllic federal forest.

I can't see it that way after what I know happened to Rebecca there. But the way this girl was brutalized. The one thing I'm learning of note two, the brutality that was inflicted on this pregnant mom. And B number one, number two, the baby's gone. The baby was not there. Somebody took the baby. Dan Murphy, have you ever seen anything like it, including all your years at nypd?

[Dan Murphy]

This would have to be up there with the most horrific scenes I've ever seen, if not worse.

Having not seen images, but hearing the descriptions is enough. This is the stuff that makes even veteran detectives want to have a drink or five on the way home afterwards, because this is so you want to wash it out of your brain. It's so horrible. This is what reminds you that human beings are capable of unbelievable, unfathomable acts of violence against each other. This is one that would stick with whoever was at that scene for the rest of their lives.

[Nancy Grace]

Dan Murphy, you mentioned this is the kind of case that makes you want to have one or five drinks after work. I remember being so.

Upset, distraught, when I would leave the courthouse. Of course, I couldn't let a jury see. I would have to pull my car over. I would go to the parking deck, load up all my stuff. I didn't dare leave it in the courtroom.

Load everything up, get in the car, drive away from the building, away from the parking lot so no one connected to the case. Then I would pull over and stop the car and just feel sick or cry or just try to just sit there and process what had happened. And that's how I feel about what happened to Rebecca in this case. And the baby is still missing. Dan.

[Dan Murphy]

This is. I can totally relate to what you talked about as your experience. And I know a lot of people can relate to it, too.

If you have children, if you are a parent, if you care about the sanctity of life. This is shocking to the core. Absolutely shocking to the core. And even just reading about this story can give someone experience, such as myself, chills. It's a. A cold, hard reminder of just how brutal people can be to each other. And this is. This is a depth not reached often in terms of that cruelty.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm gonna walk up to her, and.

[Trainer Games Announcer]

Yes, the animals have ate at her cheeks, but her face is all there. The animals, it's so cold.

[Nancy Grace]

And her stomach. And there's their stomach studded. So the baby's not there? I don't think so. I got.

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I got this close.

[Nancy Grace]

I mean, it's so. Hurts.

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

Oh, okay. Okay. From Jax S on TikTok.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Go.

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Flew his hot air balloon all the way to the bottom of the ocean.

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[Nancy Grace]

Grace.

[Dave Mack]

Days before she is expected to give birth, Rebecca is last seen stepping into a dark colored vehicle outside her biological mother's home. Questions arise about who is behind the wheel and where they take her.

[Nancy Grace]

Number one, where is baby Richie? And number two, who did this? What ghoul? What depraved ghoul would take a young mom to be just days away from giving birth, out into the wilderness and cut her stomach open?

Even saying the words are shocking. And believe me, I'm not numb. After all the cases I've investigated, prosecuted and covered, I'm not numb. But when you look at a case like this, Joe Scott, I'm sure you agree with me. You have to hold it together. You got to keep it together to get through the probative. In other words, they mean something. Facts and prove your case, in this case, holding it together until you find the baby. Then you can go home and fall apart, or as Dan Murphy said, go have one or five drinks.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, I agree with Dan, that you have. From my perspective, you have to follow the science and stay with it. Because if you look around you and you look at what's before you relative to the humanity that indwells that space, it'll drive you to utter madness. But the key here is going to be the science, Nancy. I think you have to be reliant upon that to understand what happened to her. First off, I want to understand what other kinds of injuries might she have had on her body other than say, for instance, this horrible incision that she's going to have over her lower abdomen. I want to know if she was tortured in any way. I want to know if she was compelled in any way to wind up in this location. Was she beaten? Was she cut, was she stabbed, was she shot, was she bludgeoned in any way. I want to try to understand that. And therein is going to rest some of the answers, Nancy, even in the state that she's in, and if memory serves me correctly, we're talking potentially several weeks down the road since she was last seen alive. Did you know even as badly she may have been decomposed? We will still be able to figure out these wound tracks relative to the hemorrhage that indwells these sites, because if there is hemorrhage, that's going to give us an indication that she sustained antemortem injuries. And plus, in the throes of having the baby removed, that's called a perimortem injury. There will still be hemorrhage there, and that will tell the tale.

[Nancy Grace]

I mean, just got Morgan to remove a baby in this manner. Of course, when a proper cesarean is done in the hospital, the cut is, I don't know, 4 inches maybe it's horizontal, way, way, way low down on your stomach. I imagine amateurs would do a vertical cut from, say, the bra line down to the pubic hair. Just cut the stomach open. So if, and I'm guessing hypothesizing that is the way they did it, if they did make the vertical cut I'm describing.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

Wouldn't that, Wouldn't that sever an artery? I mean, how long would she have been able to live?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

There's multiple vessels that would be severed. And not to mention, if you, if you go with this idea that it could have been a vertical incision. Now you're talking about getting into the bowel. Okay, just think about that. Because with cesarean, one of the reasons it's done more in a southerly direction anatomically is you avoid that. All right? And trust me, our medical professionals have been doing this for years and years and years and years. They understand the nature of the anatomy involved here. That's not something that would be done in a clinical environment. So if you're at a very rudimentary level, a barbaric level, that's what you're going to be looking at. You're going to talk about erupting a multitude of vessels in there. You're going to be talking about damaging the bowel, which also has its own blood supply. So, yeah, she would bleed out in this environment. That's really no surprise here. And I think that when all is revealed, you're going to begin to understand the horror that she endured during this event. And there's really not going to be any words to try to describe. But I think if and when the thing makes it to trial, if it makes it to trial, you're going to see something presented to a jury and or to a judge that is going to shock them to their core.

[Nancy Grace]

Listen, we just had them take us to whatever the video that they wanted to show us. And.

The son or the young boy or the 20 year old did not want the dad to go up and asked if I could go up and see if it was a mask or if it was really somebody. And it was Rebecca.

[Dave Mack]

November 25th. On a trail directly behind the home of bio mom Bartholomew, a volunteer finds the body of Rebecca. Investigators not releasing the condition of the body or if a newborn has been found. Rebecca was expected to give birth days before her body was located.

[Nancy Grace]

That from up north live. Let's start at the beginning. Tonight, the search is on for Rebecca's baby boy, Richie. We now know cut out of her stomach. How did this whole thing start? Who is Rebecca? Listen.

[Dave Mack]

Child protective services called to save Rebecca from her biological mother, Courtney Bartholomew, placed with foster mother Stephanie Park. When parental rights are terminated, Stephanie adopts Rebecca. Rebecca flourishes in the park home and enjoys grandparents and extended family. Stephanie park knows Rebecca's mother is dangerous and tries to protect Rebecca from reconnecting with her. Like many adopted children, Rebecca is curious about her biological mother and the two reconnect.

[Nancy Grace]

So to renowned psychologist, forensic psychologist Dr. Sherry Schwartz. Dr. Sherry Rebecca came from an abusive home. But very early on, CPS did the right thing and removed her put her in a foster home and the foster mom adopted her and kept her, gave her a forever home. Even though she was extremely happy growing up, she became curious about who's my bio mom? What is that? I don't know that I understand it. Dr. Sherry Schwartz. Because Rebecca had everything. She had a loving family, grandparents, cousins, all the love a baby could have. But she had a curiosity about her bio mom who couldn't give a fig about her, abused her and then gave her up. But yet she was curious to find that bio mom.

We all want to know where we came from, Nancy. This is one of the fundamental biological drives to know our roots, our ancestry. And in a case where a child is given up pretty much at any age, or the parent abandons them, disappears.

That drive is a bit stronger. The kids want to know, you know, who is this person and why did they give me up? It's natural to think Rebecca maybe thought it had something to do with her. So you want to talk to that person if they're around and find out why, you know, Randolph Rice is joining us, former prosecutor, current criminal defense attorney, and civil lawyer who founded Rice Law Law. I know that your firm has been involved with adoptions.

It seems to happen all the time that the child wants to go back and find the bio parents. And I think, Randolph, that Dr. Sherry hit it on the head. They somehow think my mom gave me up because I fill in the blank. I was a bad baby, she didn't want me. They somehow blame themselves. Have you ever noticed that? And there is just an inherent desire to find that bio moment.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah.

[Randolph Rice]

Typically the adoptions we handle, the kids are very young. But certainly as they get older, there is that curiosity that they want to find out who their parents are, who their backstory is, where did I come from? Maybe who are my grandparents. And this is so important because it fulfills that void that they're trying to fill in life of trying to get the answers as to who am I.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, I find it interesting to you, Dan Murphy, that the adoptive mom has a premonition. She says, your bio mom is trouble. Don't reconnect, don't do it. But yet Rebecca was hell bent. She wanted to find the bio mom. Have you ever had cases? I have where witnesses have had some sort of a, I don't know, an emotional or mental warning, a premonition, so to speak. And it's pooh poohed. Nobody pays any attention to it.

[Dan Murphy]

Nancy, countless times I've dealt with victims of crime who've survived and I've seen cases where people haven't, where their intuition or their intuition for another person's protection has kicked in and their radar's been going off and they've ignored it. And many times I've had victims of crime tell me, you know, from hospital beds, I had a feeling about that guy. I don't know why I let him in the door. I don't know why I did this. I don't know why I did that. But our intuition exists for one reason and that's to protect us. Now, in a case like this, a mother's intuition, even an adopted mother's intuition, is strong. She knows the history and she relayed that to her. Sometimes you have to let people find their own way. But this is a case that is not unusual to that extent. People feel that parents feel it strongly for those they love. And we can see things sometimes that people themselves can't see.

[Dave Mack]

Feeling contractions. At 38 weeks pregnant, Rebecca goes to the hospital Nov. 2. Even though her due date is not until Nov. 18, an exam reveals she's bothered to run some errands. Rebecca has $2,000 cash she receives as an inheritance from family in preparation for her baby. Her cell phone is discovered abandoned along a desolate two track road. 21 days after her disappearance, the unthinkable happens. Rebecca's lifeless body is found in the remote depths of Manistee National Forest.

[Nancy Grace]

Dave Mack, crime stories investigative reporter. There you go. That shoots Randolph Rice's theory that she had a natural birth. Shoots it to hell and back because who's going to go through all that and their cell phone is not with them. You know, Dave Mack, we've seen that over and over again. I guess you recall Alex Murdaugh, right? The high profile lawyer now convicted of murdering his wife Maggie and son Paul. Remember Maggie's phone was found not far away from her body was found and it was proven through his Alex Murdaugh's nav system. Remember that he was driving away from the murder scene, slowed down, let down the passenger side window, threw out Maggie's cell phone, let the window up and scratched off. That was probative where her cell phone was found. Let's see another one. Kelsey Barreth. Remember her? Killed by fiance Frazee with the help of his mistress, the rodeo queen. Her cell phone pinged hundreds of miles away where the two had tried to make it look like she just left town, leaving behind her little girl to fend for herself. So where the cell phone is found, Dave Mack can sometimes be critical. But needless to say in this case, Rebecca did not have her cell phone. It was abandoned. Correct?

[Dave Mack]

It was. And it was abandoned not far from where her bio mom's house is. And here's the part that really bothers me, Nancy, because the phone was found on the the first day they begin the real search for her. And yet her body is found 150 yards from where her phone was. But we don't find it for three weeks. It's in an area that's been searched. I mean, think about it. If you're conducting a search, you find her phone, you're going to look all around.

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Joseph Scott Morgan]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

SH you won't.

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[Nancy Grace]

And let me go this to Alan l', Engle joining us this the editor at Deadline Detroit, an online daily. Alan, I wonder if where her body was found is a secondary or even tertiary crime scene. In other words, was she killed somewhere else, then dumped there? Because that's a lot of time to pass without her body being found that close to her phone.

[Alan L'Engle]

Although I will say, having worked on the Chandra Levy case when I was at the Washington Post, her body was found at Rock Creek Park. It wasn't till a year later a guy was taking a walk through the woods with his dog where the body was discovered. I think it's for some reason in the forest. It's not hard to, you know, have a body hidden for that long. But and particularly in in the cold where I I don't know enough about it to say, but canines going through the woods or stuff like that. I don't know if it's harder when it's cold out, when the scent isn't, the aroma isn't isn't out there. But I who knows? It's hard. It's hard to say.

[Nancy Grace]

I mean, that's a good question. Alan Lingle, when were canines brought out?

[Alan L'Engle]

Right. That yeah, that that is a good question. I mean, you would think that's that standard procedure. Usually there's a search team. A lot of times it's part of the community, part of the police. But I can tell you in the Chandra Levy case, they sent out dozens and dozens of police officers and cadets looking for the looking for the body, and they did not find it. Could it have been moved? It's very possible. And I think that was one of the thoughts maybe with Chandra Levy, that maybe her she was killed somewhere else and then her body was dumped there. I guess we don't know at this point. I mean, it's interesting, the theories by police. They seem to have some pretty specific theories as to what happened, the scenario. So it makes me think somebody's cooperating, somebody whether it's the actual people involved or somebody else who's been cooperating in this.

[Nancy Grace]

We don't know when canines were brought out to the scene, but they did not hit on Rebecca's body, which is leading to a lot of speculation. She was killed in one place, the dog searched and then her body was dumped. Then we begin hearing stories about Rebecca, heavily pregnant, getting into a black vehicle with tinted windows at midnight. Now remember the last time she was seen? She's with her bio mom running errands and she's got $2,000 with her. It's a family gift to prepare for the baby. Now listen to this.

[Dave Mack]

Rebecca's fiance, Richard Lee Filor is trying to get in touch with Rebecca, but she is not answering or replying to text, knowing Rebecca has been shopping with her biological mother. Philor calls Bartholomew who says Rebecca got into a black colored sedan with tinted windows just before midnight and left. Falora reports Rebecca missing with the Wexford County Sheriff's Office.

[Nancy Grace]

Dave Mack, I'm understanding that the fiance got that information from Rebecca's bio mom who was the last one known to be with her.

[Dave Mack]

Exactly. He knew that Rebecca had been with her bio mom shopping earlier that day. When he couldn't get her, he called Bartholomew who told him the story about the getting in a car, a dark vehicle.

[Nancy Grace]

But isn't it true? Dave Mack, the bio mom has an alibi of sorts.

[Dave Mack]

Listen, she gave me my meds at about 8:40. I don't remember a lot as I just said, but she was there when I went to bed and she was also there when I woke up the next day. I know that she never goes out on a boat when I am sleeping. Just because she doesn't like to drive at night.

[Nancy Grace]

Wait a minute. Randolph Rice, that's no alibi. The son of the bio mom says he took meds at 8:40 and didn't see his mom again until the next morning. That's no alibi for the night Rebecca died.

[Randolph Rice]

You're exactly right, Nancy. It's no alibi, but at least establishes somewhere around at 8:40 that she's accountable and sometime the next morning she's accountable. The question is going to become where was she between 8:40pm and that next morning?

[Nancy Grace]

Out of the blue, a surprise twist. Listen to Joanna Carey, the Wexford county prosecutor. This is case of premeditated torture and murder. These two individuals created a plan, conducted research.

Ms. Bartholomew brought Rebecca to their home. They forced her into another vehicle and took her into the woods where they stabbed her, forced her to lie on the ground while they cut her baby out and ultimately caused her death. There's been a lot of speculation about potential motive. Of course, the state never has to prove motive in a case like this or any case. But to Dave Mack, crime stories investigative reporter, apparently prosecutors are speculating about a motive.

[Dave Mack]

What is is that the Bartholomews Bradley, that they had failed at conceiving a child, that she had had multiple miscarriages and that she still wanted to have a baby. Talking about Courtney Bartholomew here and that they had not been able to do.

[Nancy Grace]

That, you know, you really can't make that up. But believe it or not, there have been other cases similar to this with the same motive. And I'm referring specifically to the case of Bobbi J. Stennett. The woman behind me is one of the most hated people in Missouri. This is Lisa Montgomery. And in 2021, she was actually the first woman to be executed by the US government in nearly 70 years because she did something hard, horrifically depraved. In 2004, Lisa drove to Missouri to meet Bobby Jo Stennett, who was 38 weeks pregnant at the time. That is from ray review on TikTok. And she's right. Lisa Montgomery cut the baby out of the victim. Bobby Jo Stennett, who was eight months pregnant, took the baby and the baby lived. The baby girl is now a teenager living with her father. Alan l' Engle joining us from Deadline Detroit. Allen, these two are under arrest right now. Do you believe that there are any other parties involved in the murder of Rebecca and you have reason to believe that the baby is no longer alive? Explain.

[Alan L'Engle]

Well, I think the attorney general, Dana Nestle here in Michigan has put out a press release. She's working with the county prosecutor and she's put out a press release saying that not only the mother is dead, but the baby is dead. They seem to have a scenario of what happened, what transpired, which tells me somebody is cooperating and helping laying out because there's no, I doubt there's any video there in the national forest there. Somebody has sort of laid out a scenario where they're able to press charges and say what happened. So does somebody else know about it? There's a very good possibility that somebody else has been cooperating to sort of lay out the scenario.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, it's amazing to me that other people could stand by knowing this happened or was going to happen and did nothing to Joseph Scott Morgan. The baby, baby Richie has not been found.

Ellie thinks the baby is dead. Is there any way now we saw in the Montgomery case the baby did live. Is there a way the baby lived?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, there's a Possibility the baby lived. We just don't know how long. But here, here's the thing, Nancy. I think that all we have to do is go back to what the state prosecutor is saying here, because they're kind of definitively saying that this neither two. And we know the mom, all right, is deceased, but both of them are not alive. So where is she coming up with that information? I'm wondering if there was a witness to this event or if somebody had actually that was involved in this, had stated it to somebody else, maybe in their immediate circle, maybe somebody within the family, you know, because they're. They're banging on about, well, we, we. We've tried and we haven't had a baby, and, you know, this is something we really wanted. Well, if they're banging on about that, maybe they're saying, well, we tried again. Oh, yeah, we tried to butcher my biological daughter and extract baby from her. And so that didn't work either. Did they make that statement to somebody? The question is, the question is, is where is this child? And also how long, if any, any time did this child survive outside of the womb? And what's the status of the baby right now?

[Nancy Grace]

If you know or think you know anything regarding the death of Rebecca or anything about her missing baby, please call Wexford Sheriff's 231-779-9216. The investigation is ongoing. And now we remember an American hero, Corporal James Chapman, Johnston PD, SC. Killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife and four children to be raised without their father. American Hero Corporation, James Chapman, Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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[Nancy Grace]

This is where mindset comes in.

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Someone will be eliminated. Pressure is coming down. This is trainer games.

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[Joseph Scott Morgan]

O.

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

Guaranteed human.