← Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
DEVIL'S DEN "KILLER" DOUBLE KILLER BACK IN COURT IN JANUARY AS DEFENSE TRIED TO GET DEATH PENALTY OFF THE TABLE
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This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human Cleaning out your home is everything. It clears your space, your mind and it can give you holiday shopping power with Trashy. Just buy a trashy bag, fill it with anything you no longer need, then ship it free and earn trashy cash points instantly. Keep earning points when you shop exclusive trashee deals and redeem for shopping wherever you want or even donate them to charity. Turn a home clean out into shopping power that also does good@trashy.IO that's T R A S H I E I O Season two of Unrivaled Basketball is here and the talent is unreal. Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more are back to redefine the game. Unrivaled basketball Season 2, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO. Max support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Just generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member finra, SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures of available@public.com disclosures it's the most wonderful time of the year and Valpak is here to make it even better. This month as you sip through holiday mail, don't miss the blue Valpak envelope. From dining to holiday shopping, there's a slate full of savings in your mailbox, plus a chance to instantly win $100. That's right, you can find $100 Christmas cash inside. Want to save even more money on what you love? Go to valpak.com for local coupons and offers. It pays to open Valpak no purchase necessary for instant win voip prohibited prices are randomly inserted. See specially marked Valpak envelopes for details. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Devil's Den horror. A mom and a dad both slaughtered trying to protect their little daughters from the hiking trail killer. FBI joins in the manhunt. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. These lines this just occurred at Devil's Den. Unit still en route attacked a male and a female on Devil's Den hiking trail and then took off in a small black sports car with tape off the plate. And we suspect the suspect of injuries due to the witness seeing the suspect. Our suspect's DNA has been a positive match to the DNA that we suspected to belong to our suspect at the scene. Not just two hikers dead on a trail. A mother and a father in the prime of their lives with their two little girls, ages 7 and 9, brutally stabbed dead on a family hiking trail. But in the last hours, this Arkansas State Police special agents have arrested James Andrew McGann, 28, of Springdale. He's been charged with two counts of capital murder in the deaths of Clinton David Brink and Kristen Amanda Brink. I want you to hear this, Nancy. The next court date for Devil's Den double murder suspect Andrew McGann is set for January 15, 2026. It will be a pre trial continuation hearing in Fayetteville, Arkansas. His defense is seeking to remove the death penalty, but prosecutors intend to pursue it. The case is expected to involve many hearings before the trial happens. McGann appeared in civilian clothing and without restraints in his November hearing. This after a judge granted his defense request for civilian clothing. The trial is expected to be lengthy, potentially taking years before it actually makes it to the inside of a courtroom. How did we get here? Straight out to Carson Holiday joining us, investigative Senior news reporter us son. I understand the 28 year old alleged double killer is a white male teacher who was just moved to this area. And according to reports that we're trying to corroborate right now, he was taken off his last job as a teacher for inappropriate conduct with girls. Oh dear Lord in heaven, there he is. And it looks just like the composite sketch. What is that? What do we know about this guy? Right. So Nancy, we know that he had just moved from Oklahoma to Arkansas and was preparing to be a third grade teacher at the elementary school in the area. Right. The school confirmed that. And before that he worked in Texas. Right. He was a fifth grade teacher, I believe. You know Angel Lewis joining me, partner Searcy Law Firm, former felony prosecutor. If this is true, if that is why he left Oklahoma and ended up here and ended up at Devil's Den family hiking trail, why in the world would the school have let it go quietly? I just. Does it never end, you know? Hey, hey, Andrea, listen to what an ASP investigator had to say. We're not going to talk about his motive right now. We're still exploring and determining exactly what that motive was. So it'd be a little premature for us to speak on that tonight. Well, Angie Lewis, I understand the Arkansas State Police investigators caution regarding motive. I can certainly take a very educated guess here. This man is obviously twisted. They say don't judge a book by its cover, but we can tell by just looking at his mugshot something is wrong with him. And we know that because, as you just stated, it appears from reports that he is someone who has either preyed upon, has fixated upon or has some type of nefarious desires towards young girls in the past. And of course, he works in a school setting. And as you know, Nancy, that's my primary practice. I handle sex abuse cases. I prosecuted sex abuse cases. And now I represent the victims. I see this a lot. And I'll tell you, and you just hit the nail on the head. The most frustrating thing, when you have someone that is preying on children 99% of the time, that is not an isolated incident. These are people, it's ingrained in their soul. And what we need to do as a society and as a community. And always remember, if someone is acting strangely towards children, if someone gives you the creeps, especially if someone appears to be sexually attracted or giving unwanted attention to children, you need to be screaming that from the rooftops. The schools need to be coming out and telling the community because all they do is move to the next school or community and cause havoc there or in this case, murder people, likely for the sole reason of getting to the children. You know, there's a lot of speculation, Ron Bateman joining me, former Sheriff Ann Arundel County, Maryland, who investigated the murder on Mon Paw Trail of Rachel Morne. Very similar to this case. We were trying to determine motive. We knew, Ron Bateman, that the little girls ran for their lives down this rocky terrain. There's Rachel Morin to get to safety. They heard their mother screaming in the background. They said at the time they saw their father getting stabbed and that the mom told them to run. So when you were analyzing for us in the hours after the double murder what may have happened, the parents sent the little girls to safety. And we talked about why would one guy attack the husband who is a big guy. A big guy, all right, not fat big, but really big and beefy. Why would one guy take on the man and the woman, the mom and the dad. And you deduced he had tried to grab one of the little girls and the parents were protecting them. Ron Bateman. Yeah. It's really clear now that we know what his background is, which absolutely pisses me off to think that a proper background was not done on this guy before he was hired to a school system, the third school system that he worked at. If they would have done their due diligence on him, they would have learned these other past behaviors and they wouldn't have hired him. That, that wouldn't have kept him from being at the, that this trail that day. But it's, it's just unbelievable. Why we it may have Ron Bateman because if he's miss moving from Arkansas to here, I mean, if he's moving to Arkansas, then he came there because he was hired. If he hadn't been hired by the school, he probably would have been in some other state. But I don't know. All of that is just spinning out. This is the kind of thing we do when we prep for a trial. We try to give the jury a motive. But isn't it true, Carson Holiday joining us from US Sun. Isn't it true that the authorities said from the very beginning the parents were slaughtered trying to, quote, protect the little girls? Didn't that come out at the beginning? Yes. And the family said in a statement that they were trying to save the little girls. We're all sweeping the trail, me and I've got a maintenance person with me, interpreters with first aid kids trying to locate the family here. Yell calling for help. We're hiking down 10 4. We're hearing them too, towards the end of the lower part of the Devil's Den trail. Try to relay to the office. We found the victims down here. They're on the lower Devil's Den trail. I've got two, two bodies. The fact that the mother and father are stabbed dead with the little girls running away is a huge psychological indicator as to who the perp is. First of all, Carson Holiday, before I go to Dr. Janie Lacey, I want to figure out how this guy was arrested. Is it true he was slung up in a barber chair at a salon getting his hair clipped like he's not even worried he's going to get caught? Yep. He was mid haircut when they arrested him, you know, he drove up with the car that he escaped in and he was mid haircut when they handcuffed him. The barber even took a video of police taking pictures of the scene. You're seeing that right now. I believe it is Lupita Salon. Lupita Salon. This is from Adriana Ruiz Avalos on Facebook. And she was afraid and concerned. There is the alleged getaway car. It's exactly as it was described. I got to give a big shout out to the witnesses that ID that car. Now, I mean, I don't know what it says to you. I'm just a trial lawyer, but. Dr. Janie Lacey joining us, psychotherapist, author of how to Heal From a Toxic relationship and more. Dr. He's not worried at all about being apprehended. That's pretty smug. That's pretty arrogant. And I'm also curious if he was going to get his hair shaved. Hey, let me get the New York control room to show you something really quickly. Dr. Janie I want to see the behind shot from the rear of the alleged perp at the trail. And this outfit really cued a lot of witnesses. Dr. Janney There it is. Now, if you zoom in on this, which I've done a million times, you can see his hair coming out from under his baseball cap. I wonder if he saw this photo that we aired and realized his hair color and his hair could be identified and he was at that salon mid haircut. I wonder, was he getting his head buzzed? Was he getting his hair up above his baseball cap? Long story short, isn't that a tiny bit arrogant to be out slung up in the salon's chair just minding your own business after a double murder and the cops are looking for you? The ASP is nothing to be sneered at. And the FBI was in on this thing. Well, Nancy, you said it. Arrogant and confident. So if he was going about it, I would have probably imagined that he absolutely saw that video and thought that he was smarter and thought that he was going to get away with this crime. Hence the remote location with no cell phone service, the tape on his car and all these other types of things. The fingerless gloves that was reported and then the specific clothes that you just saw that we just saw on the screen. So he's wearing these black clothing in the middle of the forest with the backpack. So arrogant and confident and disconnected from the crime in the sense that he probably believed that he was going to get away with this crime. Nancy to Dr. Michelle Dupree joining us you know her? Well, she catapulted to fame during the Alex Murdaugh double murder trial. That's her jurisdiction, by the way. She is the author of Money, Mischief and the Murdoch Dynasty. She's the author of, for my purposes, Homicide Investigation Field Guide and Child Abuse investigation field guide. Dr. Dupree. And in that video, if I could see that again, you see the Arkansas State Troopers gathering his hair lying there. And it's from the AGI Ruiz Avalos Facebook. What are they going to do with that hair? It gives me hope. There's DNA. Explain, Dr. Dupre. Nancy, it's probably not going to be for DNA, because DNA, you would need the actual hair root for that. They may be able to find trace evidence from that if they can match his hair. You can't get mitochondrial DNA without a root. I know you need the root for nuclear DNA, but what about mitochondrial DNA? Can't you get that from a hair without a root? You might be able to get mitochondrial DNA. Yes, yes. But not the traditional DNA that we normally think of. Not to go DEFCON 4 into the analysis of DNA, but I have handled cases myself where a mitochondrial DNA match was made to nuclear DNA on the scene. It doesn't matter if it comes from the mother, you still get the DNA match. You can. Yes. Straight out to Ron Bateman joining us. The hair on the floor from the salon, that gives me hope that there will be a DNA match. What does that mean? That means that the perpetrator somehow may have left DNA at the double murder scene. That hair is important. Let me respond to that, because I've talked about this in other shows. Transference of evidence. When you are somewhere committing a crime, you most likely, always. That makes sense, will leave something behind, blood, hair, fingerprints, whatever, and you will take something with you. Carpet fibers, soil from the. From the ground, what have you. But in this case, it sounds, and I would be all over that hair, too, in the, in the salon, that most likely, I would bet money that there's hair at that scene that they're looking to link to. To McGann, that what you're seeing right now is from Adriana Ruiz Avalos on Facebook. You just said something super interesting. Ron Bateman. I mean, it was all interesting to me because I love crime scenes. You said the word soil. I hope, I hope, because we got a good description of this guy, what he was wearing. I'm circle back to Carson on that in a moment. But Ron, the soil on that scene, he just moved here, right, to take his new job at a teaching position. Scary. The soil on that scene, I wonder if they can match that back to soil, possibly even microscopic, on his clothes, on his shoes. Those parents put up the fight of a lifetime. Don't you know, they were grabbing at his hair, leaving DNA on him, getting his DNA on them. And then the possibility of soil from the hiking trail on his clothes. RON yeah, the app, the the FBI, who is providing special resources in this case, will definitely be able to compare that soil to soil that's found on his shoes, for example, and putting him right on the scene. You know, another thing, Carson Holiday joining us along with Sidney Sumner from Crime Stories. Carson joining us, you have son. CARSON I know this sounds crazy, right? But it's not. And I've had other victims and witnesses tell me this, so and they're separated in time and space that they got a, quote, bad vibe off the perp. Now, in this case, I was going to come to you about what he was wearing that stuck out like a sore thumb because we were talking to Bateman about the shoes and the possibility that soil samples from the hiking trail are on his clothes. But this guy was decked out in all black and witnesses have said, stated we saw him, he wouldn't even look us in the eyes. We passed him, look at this. It's almost 100 degrees weather out there. CARSON Isn't it true that one of the eyewitnesses said he gave her a bad feeling, he put off a bad vibe and they noticed it and I'm getting a vibe, I'm just looking at him. But they remembered it and recounted it to police. Exactly. Nancy I think especially as women, when you walk by a big guy like that and you know, he's just kind of poking over in his dark clothes, it would be impossible to not immediately get a feeling from him. And maybe he was hurrying away from the scene. Maybe he was walking with some sort of focus. I mean, he was decked out in long sleeves, a black hat, black head to toe, and he had that giant backpack on him. He just seemed disheveled. And again, wearing that really hot seeming clothes in such humid Arkansas heat, it would be weird to not spot him and to not remember him. When you were asked, you gotta look out for a white male suspect wearing black gloves, sunglasses, dark colored pants. Few children are there. We have more breaking news tonight. The Arkansas State Police giving us more details of the arrest in the Devil's Den double homicide. Take a listen from Kotvin. As we began to hone in on the vehicle, it became clear that it was a Kia Stinger. And we used that information to vet various owners and our suspect was identified. Terrifying screams and calls for help are heard in Arkansas State Park Devil's Den, prompting nearby hikers to sound an alarm. What authorities find shocks everyone in the last hours. In fact, it was announced in the night an arrest has been made in the double homicide. The brutal knifing of a mom and dad at Devil's Den hiking trail. Straight out to Ron Bateman. Joining us, former sheriff Ann Arundel County, Maryland, who exhaustively investigated the Rachel Moran murders. Very similar to this case. Weigh in. So if you go back to the picture of the suspect from behind, you will notice what he's wearing is not a hoodie. It's either a turtleneck, which I don't believe it's a turtleneck. It looks like it could be one of those full face covers that we wear during a pandemic or people wear all the time, whether hunting or fishing. But that seems very unusual to me. Do you see that at the top of his neck? That's not an article of clothing like a shirt or a turtleneck. That could be where he could pull something over his, his face and his nose and cover his nose, his mouth and, you know, the rest of his face. And if you see that picture there, he's mid haircut. He's not getting a buzz cut. He's not getting all his hair shaved off. He's too vain for that. It looks to me like he's getting it cut, possibly shaved up the back, but it's all above his ears. See what's happening? And he was mid haircut, so we don't really know what they were doing, but we know he was getting it off of his collar and way up. Dr. Janie Lacey joining me. Let's take a look at what he is wearing. Dr. Janie look at this. I see why someone has mentioned it looks like he's got a ball of clava down around his neck. Oh, Ron Bateman said that we see that, we see a huge backpack. What does he have in that? And the backpack itself is easily identifiable. I'm just wondering if they found that backpack that matches up to this photo. So. Dr. Janie Lacey, the way he's dressed, I mean, it has got to be the victim's DNA all over him. And I guarantee you these items are going to be found in his closet at his new apartment. I would certainly hope so, Nancy, because as we're looking at what he's wearing, that would say a lot as far as these premeditation that he probably planned to have everything that he needed in that bag, which will probably tell us a lot about what he was planning when they received that, that backpack and the contents of that backpack. And I would imagine with the parents and their instinct to save and to protect their children, that their DNA, that there's other evidence that would be on his clothing. So to me, that would be really important that they recover not only that backpack but all of his clothing that we see in this picture to be able to learn a lot about this horrific crime and his violent behavior. Cleaning out your home is everything. It clears your space, your mind, and it can give you holiday shopping power with Trashy. Trashy is the easiest way to tidy up for the holidays. Clean out and donate what you don't need and make room for stuff you'll actually enjoy. Just buy a trashy bag, fill it with anything you no longer need, any brand, any condition. We take everything, then ship it free and earn trashy cash points instantly guaranteed. Keep earning points when you shop exclusive trashy deals and redeem for shopping wherever you want or even donate them to charity. It's simple, it's satisfying, and it's sustainable since 95% of what you send gets reused or recycled. So those pants you love but never wear, instead of your closet or a landfill, they could wind up hugging someone else's butt while also unlocking a little festive shopping power for you. Buy your bag and clean out for the holidays@trashy.IO that's T R A S H I E I O Season two of unrivaled basketball is here and the talent is unreal. The best women's players on the planet are running it back with even bigger moments and bigger stakes. Don't miss as Paige Becker, Snafeeza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Briana Stewart and more. Take the court and redefine the game. This isn't your regular season. This is unrivaled, where the pace is faster, the energy is higher and every athlete shines. Unrivaled basketball Season 2, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO. Max support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosure is available at public.com disclosures it's the most wonderful time of the year and Valpak is here to make it even better. This month as you sip through holiday mail, don't miss the blue Valpak envelope. From dining to holiday shopping, there's a slate full of savings in your mailbox, plus a chance to instantly win $100. That's right, you can find $100 Christmas cash inside. Want to save even more money on what you love? Go to valpak.com for local coupons and offers. It pays to open Valpak. No purchase necessary for instant Win. Voip were prohibited. Prices are randomly inserted. See specially marked Valpak envelopes for details. Crime Stories With Nancy Grace, Sydney Sumner joining me. Crime Stories Investigative reporter, explain to us what we know right now about the slaughter at Devil's Den. What do we know happened, pieced together by the 911 calls. Little girls running down the trail, screaming, all what they reported. How do we think the attacks went down? Sydney Right. Well, we don't have any publicly released information on what actually happened, but we have been hearing these little snippets of 911 dispatch radio and that's where we're starting to piece together what happened. So apparently this family is walking on the trail, mom and dad, two little girls, and they are approached by Andrew, apparently at this point, and he starts to attack the parents, attacks dad, possibly stabs dad in the chest while the two little girls are still with their parents. Mom tells these two young girls they're just seven and nine years old, to run as far and as fast as they can and try and get help. So these girls take off and what they tell the 911 dispatcher is that they ran until they couldn't hear their mom screaming anymore. So they run into some adult on the trail and we think that they ran a very long distance, almost a mile, until they ran into, we're not sure, some kind of an adult, maybe another family, a couple and someone escorted them to the visitor center where an attendant called 911. And at this point, the attendant just believed that maybe these children were just separated from their family. It wasn't until the girls were put on the phone directly with the 911 dispatcher that it was understood that their parents had actually been attacked. So at this point, that's when you hear stage for police. Two people have been attacked, possible stabbing. And officers are now searching the trail for these injured people. And what we know is that officers actually heard calls for help before they made it out to Clinton and Kristen Brink. So it was so sad that they were so close to possibly have gotten these parents medical attention, attention that they needed. But by the time they located Kristen and Clinton, they were deceased. While first responders initially hear screams and calls for help, by the time they reach the victims on the trail, it's clear the victims are deceased. There's no sign of their attacker. Officers quickly clear the trail, speaking with hikers as they exit the park to piece together what happened. Several hikers remember passing the family and many others on the trail. But a few point out there was only one person they saw alone on the trail that day. A medium build, white man wearing dark clothes, a ball cap and sunglasses with dark blonde or light brown hair. What's supposed to be a memorable family hike ends in a brutal tragedy when the bodies of a mom and dad are suddenly discovered in an Arkansas state park. With me, an all star panel to make any sense of what we are learning right now. We do know that overnight it was announced an arrest had been called Devil's Den hike Trail killer was apprehended according to police. Carson Holiday joining us from the Sun. Carson, I'm trying to figure out how this guy was apprehended, what led to him. I have a reason to believe it may have been his vehicle. But Carson Holiday, you may have a different theory. How was this guy identified? I believe it was a composite sketch. The composite sketch was really right on and he was wearing, I mean, obviously we have that picture from behind that I feel like is very recognizable. That backpack is pretty unique. Again, the balaclava sort of thing around his neck and then the hat. That all just seems very recognizable. I believe someone saw him going in to get the haircut, which is where he was arrested and maybe called it in. Obviously, we'll learn more as the police release more Details. We're learning that police. Well, it's Arkansas State Police, along with the FBI, are crediting video tips. I don't really know what that means, but video tips also to Dr. Michelle Dupree. Joining us, renowned pathologist, medical examiner, and former detective. When I hear people talk about a balaclava, now, I can't help. I will forever think of Brian Kohberger. And it sounds like this guy took a page out of Kohberger's book. Kohberger, dressed all in black, face mask, gloves. The work works just like this guy. What do you make of it? Does that really protect you from DNA transfers? No, Nancy, it doesn't. I think that he was under a misconception that it would. But there are still going to be lots of trace evidence. Hairs, fibers, soil, things like that. It gives him a false sense of security that he won't be identified, and it does make it harder to identify. But there are still ways to do that. And as we've seen here, there's a great sketch of him. It really is. It really is. You know, that's hard to do. Dr. Michelle Dupree, you and I have worked with a lot of composite sketches, and I. And it looks nothing like the person. And the defense has a field day with it at trial. I mean, I've seen some composite sketches that didn't look at all like the perp, but I had a DNA match, so I know it's him. Long story short, the defense gets a hold of that bad composite and goes, look, that's not him. And that's not a good look for the prosecution in this case. I think you're absolutely right. I think it looks a lot like him. But Dr. Michelle Dupree, not only author and pathologist, also former detective, now Carson Holiday, thinks that it had to do with other evidence. I think it had to do the apprehending him had to do with his car. Because you look and you see in the database who's there, who's in the jurisdiction, driving a black Mazda 4 door went. I don't know if the whole tag was covered up, if partial tag was covered up. Look at this. This is again from Adriana Ruiz Avalos on Facebook. There it is right there. Yep, it's a four door, just like the witnesses said. And the car database is easy to find. Now, we know part of that tag was obscured with duct tape. He planned ahead. But even if you get the outside of the tag, you can identify the state and maybe more. So what do you think led them to this guy? Apprehended all kicked back, getting his hair done. Nancy, I think you're actually right. I think that someone saw this car and probably saw it maybe being parked and saw this person going into the barbershop to get a haircut. And then you match that up with the sketch and I think you've absolutely got it. You've got it wrapped up. Hey, listen to this. Dr. Dupree, several other hikers take notice of a man in dark clothes on devil's den trail. 1911 call reporting he appeared to have blood on him. While initial reports put the suspect in a black tank top, police revised the description to a dark colored long sleeve shirt with the sleeves rolled up. Some witnesses saw the man get in a black four door sports car. Others report a similar car driving erratically as it leaves the park area. Their descriptions are vague, but all have two commonalities. It was loud and there was tape covering the license plate. Police believe the vehicle may have been traveling on Arkansas 170 or Arkansas 220. I'm not saying Carson Holliday is wrong. She may very well be right. She knows the facts like the back of her hand. But Dr. Dupree, it's Coburger all over again. Here you've got the guy in this case, Devil's Den, driving erratically in a really loud car that went out on the airwaves pronto describing him, the composite. But that car, it got on either Arkansas 170 or 220. They have cams, they have license grabbers. And if you're driving erratically, people are going to notice. Just like bk. Brian Kohberger's white Elantra was noticed. I mean, it's a dead giveaway. What about that possibility, Dr. Dupre? Absolutely, Nancy, that you're right. That is going to be noticed by anybody that's in the vicinity. And if they call that in and then again they do match it up with the sketch, I think you're right. I think somebody saw that car. I think somebody saw that being parked near that barbershop. And I think that is how they apprehended him right then and there. Oh yes, by the barber shop. Brilliant. And he was so arrogant, this guy. Idiot. Decluttering is everything. It clears your space, your mind. And now it can give you shopping power with trashy. Trashy is the easiest way to clean out and donate all that clutter you've been meaning to deal with. Eventually, just buy a trashy bag, fill it with anything you no longer need any brand any condition. We take everything, then ship it free and earn trashy cash points instantly guaranteed. Keep earning points when you shop exclusive trashy deals and redeem them for gift cards to brands you love or even donate them to charity. It's simple, it's satisfying, and it's sustainable since 95% of what you send gets reused or recycled. So you know those excuses that keep you from decluttering? You don't have time, you don't know what they'll take. Trashee solves all that. Just get a bag, fill it, send it. It's never been easier to turn clutter into shopping power. Buy your bag and start decluttering today at Trashy IO that's T R A S H I E I O Season two of Unrivaled Basketball is here and the talent is unreal. Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more are back to redefine the game. Unrivaled basketball Season 2, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO Max support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures it's the most wonderful time of the year and Valpak is here to make it even better. This month as you sip through holiday mail, don't miss the blue Valpak envelope. From dining to holiday shopping, there's a slate full of savings in your mailbox, plus a chance to instantly win $100. That's that's right. You can find $100 Christmas cash inside. Want to save even more money on what you love? Go to valpak.com for local coupons and offers. It pays to open Valpak. No purchase necessary for instant Win. Voip prohibited prices are randomly inserted. See specially marked Valpak envelopes for details. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Doctor Janie Lacey. And I say idiot with full venom. Have you ever been minding your own business? I don't know if you live in an apartment or a house or in traffic and you hear and you go, what is that? And it's some muscle car going by with a screwed up muffler and everybody notices it. This guy like Kohberger going round and around and around the murder scene in his white Elantra. Hello, we see you on ring cams. We can see you. This Guy drives off 90 mph and thinks nobody will notice and then parks in front of the salon. Well, Nancy, that says a lot about he thought his self importance and him living in the little bubble and not necessarily having self awareness. Right. So when we see people who are arrogant, personality disordered, have a lot of history of just being self focused and their self importance is so inflated that these are the types of people that we will see that are not considered of other people. And in this situation of him going to the barbershop and him going, going loudly at that is to say that his self importance is over overconfidence and just really thinking that he probably was going to get away with this crime in this sense, especially when we look at his self importance and his lack of self awareness. I'm so glad you said that. Dr. Janie and Lewis joining us, veteran trial lawyer at Searcy Law, but former felony prosecutor. The more arrogant they are, the better it is for the state because they think that they're not going to be noticed and they're smarter than everybody in the room. And in this case it's little things. Andrea, if Carson Holiday is right, and I think she is, there's a good chance there's DNA, that there are video tips. It's other little things. Did I ever tell you about the bank robber I prosecuted gets a ton of money out of what was then a CNS bank. And you know what got him? A little thing. They didn't even have video. They had still photos of the perp, but you could see he was slew footed, walked like a duck. Right. And of course he took the stand. Thank you heaven. He takes a stand and everybody hung over the jury rail to watch him walk. And he walked up just as slue footed as Daffy Duck. Okay, so what I'm saying is little things like that car pulling up and parking right there, forgotten everybody to see in front of the salon. You hear that and of course you look at it and you think, hey, that looks like the Mazda everybody's looking for. Andrea. Idiot. How many times can I say idiot in one segment? But what about it, Andrea Lewis, you're 100% right. You know, I think most people who maybe aren't in the courtroom as much as prosecutors are, maybe some other lawyers don't realize how the defendant themselves can really just be a treasure trove of information, not only in evidence before, not only in just their statements potentially to police, but as you noted in the courtroom, their mannerisms. Because if they're arrogant outside the courtroom, imagine how they act inside the courtroom. And jurors can pick up on that. And they want to, you know, wipe that smile right off their face. And I think that's what's happened here. He just got, you know, cocky. He thought he was untouchable. I totally agree with you and the other guest. I think that we're going to find here that there's DNA that we've got. You got his car. It sounds like you have multiple people on the hiking trail. I would assume that it was one of the adults that probably got a good look at him. I remember there were some witness statements when, when the initial reports went out. Who did that, the composite, which is excellent. So they have a lot. And for all we know, he spoke to police. So I think it'll just keep getting better. Got something else for you, Andrea. Ron Bateman's going to do a backflip. But before we show him doing his backflip, did you know that Lupita's salon, According to our very, very extensive Google map search, Lupita's Salon is less than 30 minutes away from Devil's Den. He didn't even leave the jurisdiction. He's that arrogant. And parks in the front of the salon where the whole world is looking for his car. It really, it defies common sense. And you brought up Co Burger. That was the first thing I thought about when we started hearing these initial reports over the last couple days. Because imagine a town like this who everybody's on high alert. I mean, people across the country are following this case. Imagine what big news it is locally there. So everybody in a four door sedan, you know, is getting stared at when they go to traffic lights and as they drive around, they're on high alert, the town's on high alert. So for this man to just be so stupid that he would stick around, not think that anyone would notice him, he's sort of a strange looking guy to begin with. I mean, he stands out. It's just foolish. And fortunately for the family, he was caught and hopefully will spend the rest of his life in prison or get the death penalty. Overnight, a presser announcing the arrest of the alleged double killer snared in the Devil's Den hiking trail murders. To Ron Bateman. Joining us, former sheriff and Arundel County, Maryland who has investigated multiple cases very similar to this. If you look at this guy, okay, he moves to town to another state after resigning from his last elementary school position where he was, quote, so close to the students. He comes here, apparently doesn't know anybody, takes an out of state job, lives all alone, reportedly having left that job after claims he had an inappropriate contact. I don't know what that means. That can mean calling children on the phone, it can mean texting them, it can mean a lot more. We don't know that yet. But then would he leap from that to trying to publicly nab a little girl on a hiking trail? No wonder the mom and dad fought to the death. Okay, so I made another observation of that backpack contraption that he has he's wearing. First off, that gym bag is attached to a backpack apparatus. And that backpack apparatus has what looks to me to be a camelback apparatus to it, which means it, it has water in it and it comes around. So to me that looks like the moron who's wearing long sleeve black shirt and black pants and a hat in 95 degree weather is. And for the long run, because of hydration, this gives him hydration to stay out there. So that looks like a camelback backpack to me with an attachment of a gym bag to it. So who knows what the heck is in that gym bag. I'd love to see the tape, the rope, the knives or whatever's in there. Would he be that brazen, Ron? Yeah, well, I mean, he's not that smart to try and nab a little girl in front of her parents. Well, I mean, for all I know, like in Rachel Morin's case, that perp waited until nobody else was around and Rachel was at a curve, remember a curve where people behind couldn't see exactly what was happening ahead and he dragged her off the trail. Her mother of five. For all I know, the little girls were running ahead of mom and dad, which Happens frequently. And he saw them and didn't see mom and dad and tried to grab one, and the girl screamed. I wonder if that's how this whole thing is going to play out, Ron. Yeah, you know what? He probably had tunnel vision. You're a parent. I'm a parent. You know, when the kids are little, you know, they don't want to stick by mom and Dad's side. They're running ahead or they're hanging behind, they're playing on logs or doing what have you, exploring the woods. And that could have very well happened and been slightly out of sight of mom and dad. But this guy had tunnel vision. He knew what he was going after, probably one of those two little girls or both, and just was oblivious to mom and Dad's presence, you know? Carson Holiday joining us from the US Sun. I'm just. We're analyzing. How was he tracked? How was he caught? Was there DNA? Did the hair have mitochondrial DNA and all? But what it boils down to is this. Mom and dad gave their lives trying to protect the little girls. That's the first words we were hearing. They died trying to protect the girls. And I spun that out trying to figure out, what does that mean? Okay, these two little girls, and I think they've got a third sister, will spend the rest of their lives without mom and dad. And there's no replacement for that. And not only that, the survivor guilt. They died trying to save me. I mean, that's what this is all about. And stabbing death is a brutal way to die. It's not like you die in your sleep or you breathe in carbon monoxide. You don't even know what's happening, or you take too many pills and you just drift off to sleep. No, it's a horrible way to die. And if the police are right, Arkansas State Police, this guy did it. I bet you anything, Carson, he didn't go from 0 to 100 miles per hour in one afternoon. Right. There's got to be a trail behind him. But what happens now? Where is he and what's next? Well, he was booked into jail last night. We obviously saw that terrifying mugshot. And police said that he could appear in court for his arraignment as soon as tomorrow morning. So we'll really be checking back in and seeing, you know, how he appears in court, what, what jail is going to look like for him. I. I really can't imagine that it would be a great experience for him there. You know, he just ripped two parents away from their young daughters. And like, you said the young daughters. I mean, the survivor's guilt is just going to be awful, especially considering that the mom told the little girls to run and get help and that they were screaming for help up until they came along to their bodies. I mean, it's just horrific. Mom and dad had just moved to this jurisdiction. Dad starting a brand new job. I think it would have been yesterday, delivering milk, Mom a nurse. Well, we know what's going to happen, Andrea. He is going to have a first appearance, which under the law, if you are behind bars, you have to be brought into a court, whether it's a magistrate, a superior court judge, a state court judge, and you have to be told why you're being charged in open court. No secret proceedings that's going to happen. Then there'll probably be a grand jury indictment on two capital murder cases. This is a death penalty jurisdiction. Then he'll probably be assigned a public defender with death penalty experience. I mean, this is more than one body that equals mass murder under the law. That's what's going to spin out. Then we're going to spend millions of dollars while he sits behind bars. I believe it's Washington County Jail with people rallying to his aid, women falling in love with him and sending him love letters and special meals. All, all sorts of things lie ahead for him. We wait as justice unfolds and we will be in court for that arraignment. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye friend. 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Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO. Max support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures your ticket to big savings is that big blue envelope in your mailbox. Valpak. It's brimming with deals from big name brands and your favorite local spots, dining services, stuff you're already buying, all for less. And you could score $100 or other instant prizes just for opening it. Or save even faster with mobile coupons you can use right now@valpak.com Valpak there's definitely something in it for you. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.