← Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
Drug Counselor Supplies Friends Star Matthew Perry's Dope Gets Slap on Wrist
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- [00:00]
Nancy Grace
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:03]
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Dr. William Maroney
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Nancy Grace
today crime stories with Nancy Grace.
- [02:13]
Wendy Patrick
Torpedo to the state. The so called drug addiction counselor who is really just a doper, a pusher. The same guy who supplied Matthew Perry, the TV icon, the star of Friends with his dope, his ketamine. Just sentenced in a court of law, if you can call it that, to a slap on the wrist. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Yes, Eric Fleming, a licensed drug addiction counselor, whatever that means, admits to selling 5051 vials of ketamine to Friends star Matthew Perry, including the dose that killed him. But then, even after admitting guilt, gets a slap on the wrist. In the last days, Fleming sentenced to just two years in prison. With good behavior, he'll be out in 12 months. What a letdown. What exactly happened to friends? Star Matthew Perry.
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Dr. William Maroney
Agent 23 Rescue 23, EMS9. Agent 23 Rescue 23 EMS9. All on radio respond to the drowning process for a few times. Exit 23 Rescue 23, EMS9.
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Nancy Grace
You can't tell a lot, but I learned something significant. Let's hear that one more time, Sid.
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Dr. William Maroney
Exit 23 Rescue 23, EMS 9. Agent 23 Rescue 23 Ms. 9. All in radio respond to the drowning process. 23 Rescue 23 EMS 9.
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Nancy Grace
Now some of those numbers are universal. Sometimes you hear numbers across a police ban or on an EMS that are specific to that region. But what hearing that really jumps out at me is response to the drowning. So at the beginning it was believed that the friends start died of drowning because that's what was reported to them. But what do we really know? Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online.
- [04:39]
Nicole Parton
The Los Angeles medical examiner determined that 54 year old Matthew Perry died from the acute effects of ketamine. Other contributing factors listed were drowning, coronary artery disease and the effects of buprenorphine. Buprenorphine is used to treat opioid use disorder. The manner of death has been ruled an accident.
- [04:59]
Nancy Grace
Okay, see, I'm a trial lawyer and that is why the medical examiners and everybody at the crime lab would go hide under their desk when they saw my beat up Honda pulling up. Because they knew I was going to go through it line by line literally to make sense of what they wrote down in their scientific findings. What acute effects of ketamine. Other contributing factors were drowning, coronary artery disease, bupr used to treat opioid disorder, manner of death, accident. There's so much there. I could do a whole flowchart on that to try to explain all that to a jury. Luckily, we have experts with us. But first I want to go to a special guest joining us. Miguel Melena Mendez joining us, senior writer for ET Entertainment Tonight. Miguel, what a pleasure to have you on. Man. This sent shock waves through not only Hollywood, but across our country. Because I'm going to follow this up with our shrink, Karen Stark. We think we know Matthew Perry.
- [06:06]
Wendy Patrick
Why?
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Nancy Grace
Because we've seen him on the big screen, we've seen him on the little screen, we follow him in the tabloids, we think we know him and about his life we've been following following his struggle with addiction. And a lot of people can identify with that. If you haven't had that struggle in somebody, you Know, somebody close to you has had that struggle. So Matthew Perry was kind of like every man that was struggling with a lot. But to you, Miguel Melendez, I want to go before I get into Matthew Perry himself and how it ended up this way, I want to talk to you about what happened, what surrounded the discovery of Matthew Perry dead in a hot tub leading up to that. Tell me about the discovery and what came out at the time that he was first discovered dead in the hot tub.
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Miguel Melendez
Right. So what we know, the timeline is that at 11am Matthew had played pickleball. At 1:37pm is when Matthew was last known to be alive by his personal live in assistant who lived with him in the Pacific palace heat home. He was off to run errands. At 1:37pm the Living Assistant returned home and found Matthew floating face down in the Jacuzzi. The assistant jumped into the pool, moved Matthew into the sitting position on the steps of the pool and found him by the way in the on the heated side of the pool called 91 1. Paramedics arrived and they moved and they pulled Matthew out of the pool.
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Nancy Grace
Okay, hold on, Miguel. You're giving me so much information so quickly. I'm drinking from the fire hydrant. Because, Miguel, you know I like to dissect every single sentence. And I loved everything you just said. As far as factually what I'm learning. Could you say it again and very slowly? Okay. Did you say the live in assistant found him?
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Dr. William Maroney
Yes.
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Nancy Grace
Okay. Why did Matthew Perry have a live in assistant?
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Miguel Melendez
That I can't answer you, Nancy. I don't know the exact circumstances of what led to that. I do know that the live in assistant, based on this report, is that he administered the detox drug on Matthew twice a day.
- [08:14]
Nancy Grace
That's important. Miguel Melendez. Hold on, Miguel. Hold the thought. Guys, with me. He's a senior writer for Entertainment Tonight. You all know him, Miguel Melendez giving us everything we need to know to analyze this drug, ketamine, that claimed the life of Matthew Perry. Karen L. Stark joining me, renowned TV radio trauma expert@karenstark.com Karen with a C. If you're trying to find her, Karen. So is it like a minder you have with AA that I don't think they call it a mind or they call it something else. Someone that checks in on you. It's like your partner, your buddy, that kind. That's who you call when you have a problem or you're going to relapse. Is that what you think is happening here? He had somebody to Help him.
- [09:03]
Karen Stark
It's called a sponsor. And his assistant, she was, she was his minder, as you said, Nancy. So she was there. She could not stop him from taking something, but certainly was trying, that was her role, to make sure that he was on the straight and narrow and sticking to his determination to stop. And he was very open about it. But he really did want to stop taking drugs recreationally.
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Nancy Grace
He really did. And he made no secret about it. What led up, up to that moment, Miguel Melendez is describing. But first, again, Miguel, could you tell me. The assistant comes in. You said he was near the heater end of the hot tub.
- [09:53]
Miguel Melendez
Correct. So at 4pm the live in assistant walks in from running errands, finds Matthew Perry floating face down in the Jacuzzi in the heated end of the pool. The assistant jumped into the pool, moved Matthew into the sitting position on the steps of the pool and called 911. Paramedics soon arrived, pulled Matthew out of the pool onto the grass where he was pronounced dead at the scene.
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Nancy Grace
You know, I think I had it. Bass Acquis, Miguel Melendez. I was saying hot tub because I've read Jacuzzi, but was the Jacuzzi or the hot tub part of the pool? Was he in a pool or was he in a hot tub or Jacuzzi?
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Miguel Melendez
It looked like it was a long pool that has a Jacuzzi in it. They're not two separate.
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Nancy Grace
Okay, that makes perfect sense. Okay, guys, what led up to this moment? Take a listen to our friend Nicole Parton.
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Nicole Parton
Matthew Perry went to his country club to play a game of pickleball with friends around 11am Perry returned to his home after the game and was seen by his assistant who was leaving the house to run errands at 1:37pm At 4:00pm the assistant returned to the home. Investigator Jennifer Herzog says the assistant found Perry floating face down in the heated end of the pool. The assistant jumped into the pool and moved him into a sitting position on the steps and called 911. Paramedics responded, pulled Perry out of the pool and onto the grass and pronounced him dead on the scene at 4:17pm his stepfather, Keith Morrison is listed as the informant, which means the Dateline host is who identified Perry to authorities.
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Nancy Grace
Oh my goodness, that must have been so hard. Horrible on the stepfather to have to do that after the struggle he, Matthew Perry went through so publicly against substance abuse. Mike McCormick joining me out of LA. Owner, lead investigator MCM Investigations, Mike McCormick. Thank you for being with us. I'm very curious Matthew Perry had been so open and public about his battle with addiction. Who, I mean even I know about that 2,000 miles away. Who would be supplying him drugs? Ketamine and all the other things in his system.
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Dr. William Maroney
It was either prescribed to him, the
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Miguel Melendez
ketamine was prescribed, or he's getting it off the street. There's only several ways of doing it. My understanding is that the from his assistant or past girlfriend, Ms. Edwards, that she's been involved with him off and on from about 2006 and she used to purchase his drugs off the street for him.
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Nancy Grace
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
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Wendy Patrick
What a blow to justice. The so called drug addiction counselor Eric Fleming admitted in court documents he met Perry had known him since 2005. He learned Perry wanted ketamine and he Fleming procured 51 vials from a dope dealer and sold them at a huge profit to Matthew Perry's assistant to give to Matthew Perry. Perry discovered dead after that same assistant injected him with three shots of ketamine that he got from the drug addiction counselor. I'm saying that with quoties now, Matthew Perry dead. What more do we know?
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Nancy Grace
Can that be corroborated that an ex girlfriend would score drugs for him?
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Miguel Melendez
Well, I don't know that the girlfriend and the assistant are the same people. I do know that there was a girlfriend who was his assistant at one time and she has gone on record and asked that, you know, the doctors be investigated if they were the ones who supplied the ketamine. Now she's, she's gone on record and said that if that happened and then this investigation needs to happen. But whether the assistant and this ex girlfriend are the same people, it doesn't seem to indicate that that's what happened based on the investigation and the details that are in the medical examiner's report. The assistant.
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Karen Stark
This is Wendy Patrick.
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Dr. William Maroney
It looks like the assistant it was
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Karen Stark
living with Matthew Perry at the time of his death as a man named Kenny Awamasa.
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Nancy Grace
Right.
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Karen Stark
Not, not the prior, not a prior girlfriend or a female assistant.
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Nancy Grace
You're right. Wendy Patrick. Guys, you're here in California. Prosecutor and author of why Bad Looks Good. Wendy patrick@wendypatrickphd.com the Star of Today with Dr. Wendy on KCBQ. I was just coming to you Wendy, on another point. A point, and that is. I saw the trial go down. I don't know if you remember Archie Bunker of All in the Family. When his son died of an overdose, he went after the supplier in the Fulton county courthouse. And I was just wondering, Wendy, about people knowing about his public struggle against addiction. I mean, he wrote about it, he talked about it, very open about it. Who would supply someone battling addiction with drugs?
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Karen Stark
Yeah, it's a great question. When you have, when you're talking about somebody that's supposed to be a confidant, a sponsor, a helper, a minder, we have all these terminology, these terms that we use. It's very different than a Michael Jackson situation where you actually have somebody medically administering a drug who would do it. I would have to say, Nancy, as you and I and our listeners know the same people that are selling drugs to begin with, maybe somebody that doesn't know him well enough or because it was prescribed lawfully for a medicinal purpose, somebody that honestly, although mistakenly thought that he needed it or could handle it in different doses. You know, ketamine, if it's being supervised, is used certainly not very, not as often as many other drugs. But you have to believe whether or not somebody thought they might be doing him a favor if he was depressed,
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Nancy Grace
if he was suicidal, they could not have been more wrong. And if it comes out that we can find the supplier or someone who aided or abetted him, I want you to just think about this. Wendy Patrick, about criminal charges. Joining me right now is the expert in this field, as far as I'm concerned, The preeminent expert, Dr. William Maroney, medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist, opioid treatment expert, author of American Narcan, which is on Amazon. Dr. Maroney, take a listen to what we've learned about the autopsy.
- [17:02]
Nicole Parton
Matthew Perry's autopsy report doesn't say how or when Perry used ketamine prior to his death, but the coroner ruled out the ketamine treatments he had a week and a half before his death because ketamine has a half life of three to four hours or less. The report notes at the high levels of ketamine found in his postmortem blood specimens, the main lethal effects would be from both cardiovascular overstimulation and respiratory depression. Drowning contributes due to the likelihood of submersion into the pool as he lapsed into unconsciousness.
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Nancy Grace
And that's not all. Dr. Maroney, wait for it. I would never have imagined this goes into the cocktail.
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Nicole Parton
The autopsy report noted Matthew Perry's history of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, emphysema and diabetes. The report mentions Perry's past drug use, but notes Perry had reportedly been clean for 19 months. The new York Post reports that in the autopsy report a comment is made about Perry undergoing ketamine infusion therapy most recently One and a half weeks before his death. The report states ketamine treatments are for anxiety and depression, but ketamine, the system couldn't be from the infusion therapy. Dr. Bankhole Johnson, one of the leading neuroscientists and physicians in the field, tells the New York Post that ketamine in Perry's system is more likely from recreational use.
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Nancy Grace
Male hormone testosterone injections. And there's one more ingredient. Why was Matthew Perry getting injections of the male hormone and testosterone? Listen.
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Narrator/Reporter
According to Matthew Perry, he had been clean for 19 months. But the Daily Mail reports the actor died from an overdose of the party drug ketamine. According to the autopsy report, a detective who attended the scene of Perry's death said, during my investigation, no alcohol, illicit drugs or drug paraphernalia were found. The Daily Mail also claims the 54 year old was getting injections of the male hormone testosterone. And an unnamed female associate claimed the injections were causing him to be angry and mean for the last couple of weeks.
- [19:16]
Nancy Grace
From my point of view, Dr. Maroney, as a layperson and not a doctor, an MD like you, if something causes you to be angry and mean, it makes me wonder if it also didn't jack up his heart rate, this male testosterone injection. But, I mean, I don't know what to make of it, Dr. Maroney, because you've got ketamine, you've got testosterone, you've got the opioid treatment drug. There's so much going on there.
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Dr. William Maroney
What you have is a cocktail of disaster because you probably are dealing with multiple doctors that are not communicating. Nobody's coordinating his care. And if he's getting ketamine, as it said in the autopsy, there's ketamine contents in the stomach. That would be ketamine pills. That's a rogue, doctor. Somebody outside of good practice guidelines, giving pills they have no business giving in addition to ketamine treatments.
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Nancy Grace
I mean, isn't ketamine used by vets so animals don't have pain during operations?
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Dr. William Maroney
Yeah, it helps with anesthesia for your cats and dogs, but at low doses, it's been shown to be beneficial in massively unstable major depressive disorder. But guess what? That acceptable therapy is nasal. It's a nasal spray with your psychiatrist.
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Nancy Grace
Wait, what you're saying ketamine, which many people believe is just used by veterinarians, now people are using it and you're saying that the only approved way for it to be used by people is by a nasal spray?
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Dr. William Maroney
The acceptable FDA approved, supervised ketamine treatment is to go see Your psychiatrist have an appointment, get a nasal spray and stay until you're stable and have a counseling session. What you have here is somebody keeps saying, well, he's in treatment, he's in recovery, he's not getting enough psychosocial therapy because he's impaired, he's impulsive, he's processing poor decisions because he doesn't have that counseling part linked to all this medicine.
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Nancy Grace
What is ketamine?
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Dr. William Maroney
Ketamine is a class of, of medicine that works on transmitters called glutamate.
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Nancy Grace
Oh, dear Lord in heaven. Speak English, man. What? Speak English. I mean, is this something I've got to worry about? They're going to have in the halls of my twins high school. I mean, I hear about ecstasy, coke, marijuana, blah blah, blah, blah. But ketamine.
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Dr. William Maroney
Ketamine's been abused for 20 years in drug culture and drug use.
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Nancy Grace
But is it traded freely on the street?
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Dr. William Maroney
It is on the street. You can buy it if you can, can ask for from your dealer, they'll get you some. But it's FDA approved as a nasal spray and he's not getting the FDA approved version.
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Nancy Grace
Okay, I heard somebody jumping in. Is it Wendy or Karen Stark?
- [22:32]
Karen Stark
Karen. It's used as a club drug. It started years ago, Nancy, but it's continuing. People do use it recreationally, but it's exactly. There are a lot of trials going on where they are psychedelics to stop addiction, just the opposite of what we have here and for depression and that has to be a trial because it's not FDA approved.
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Dr. William Maroney
These are rogue doctors in rogue clinics. The only doctor that's probably legitimate here is the one giving the buprenorphine. That's the hardest word to say. But in order to do that you have to have training. The rest of these people doing ketamine, rogue, they're outside the law, they're outside good practice. We saw this with Anna Nicole Smith, Michael Jackson, Prince, all these rogue doctors treating all these celebrities and you don't know who's around them.
- [23:29]
Nancy Grace
Ketamine has been around and being abused for a long time. We just don't know that much about it and we don't see it as much. We don't. It's not soaked into our national understanding as well, but as far as I can remember, it's been called baby food bump, cat killer, cat Valium, Fort Dodge, green, green, K, K, land K, hole. There's a million slang words for ketamine and the first time I ever saw that was when I was prosecuting and somebody had it as an aside drug. They were dealing heroin and they also had vitamin K. And you're going to laugh at this, Mike McCormick, I said, so what's wrong with vitamin K? Because I didn't know what vitamin K was, ketamine. And that was, oh, gosh, I was prosecuting a dope lord and he had a stash of vitamin K. That's the first time I heard about ketamine.
- [24:29]
Miguel Melendez
And Matthew Perry was was not the first celebrity to be open about the ketamine therapy sessions. I mean, the week before he died on December 1, Chrissy Teigen was very open about the fact that she underwent Academy therapy session to celebrate her birthday. And she said on Instagram how she saw space and time and her late son Jack is someone she saw during this therapy session. So ketamine has kind of like sort of have come into the conscience as of late and now more because of Matthew Perry's death that you're seeing the horrible side effects that it can have.
- [25:07]
Nancy Grace
So Miguel Melendez from ET Joining us, you're saying that it's common use among celebrities to what, fight depression?
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Miguel Melendez
To fight depression, to figure themselves, to use them, to use it as a form of therapy. Chrissy Teigen is far from the only celebrity who has been open about taking or undergoing academy therapy sessions. You have the likes of Sharon Osborne and Pete Davidson who have been open about this. But again, Academy therapy session is not dangerous if it's done under supervision. As our esteemed doctors here have said, when you go rogue, and in this case it seems to indicate that's what Matthew Perry did, you're going to see the fatal consequences. And that's exactly what happened here.
- [25:56]
Nancy Grace
You're hearing Miguel Melendez, senior writer, ET And I've got to get everything he said, which is all correct, by the way, explained to me medically. Dr. William Maroney, renowned expert in this field. So when you have ketamine treatment with a doctor, you're saying ketamine is ingested nasally, like through dristan, the spray into your nose. And if it's used any other way, then it's rogue. Do I have that right? Maroney?
- [26:28]
Dr. William Maroney
The reason why it's rogue is the FDA approved spray comes with specific conditions that you're observed, that they follow instructions and that your safety comes first. And you really can't even drive to and from your session. You're supposed to have somebody take care of you. As soon as you let somebody take ketamine pills, well, it's unobserved, it's uncontrolled and it's Clear. There was ketamine in his stomach and his level in his blood was exactly halfway between low anesthesia and high anesthesia. You don't have those levels when you're supervised. And the whole idea that ketamine therapy is matched to a psychosocial treatment, a behavioral counseling session, that's where you make the changes. You have better insight, you have better processing of stress, and you're not impulsive. The last thing you want with impulsive behaviors with somebody in addiction is to put them on testosterone. That's insane. Well, everybody knows it makes you feel really good as a man. You're 60 years old, suddenly you feel 36. Okay? But it comes at the price of frustration and anger and really short tempers. Add that to the impulsivity of substance use disorder and you could have, you know, a dark rabbit hole, a hidden monster in the shadows and somebody who's not going to listen to somebody when they say, oh, you know, taking a few too many ketamine pills. Ketamine spray is not something you do every day. It's once or twice a month with counseling sessions.
- [28:15]
Nancy Grace
And because he had the pills in his stomach still at the time of autopsy, we know it was Rog Ketamine. And not the type used for infusion treatment. And of course, you've got the other factor weighing into Matthew Perry's death, and that is with all these drugs in his system, he gets into the pool, the hot tub. And it's not the first time. Take a listen to our cut 13 now.
- [28:44]
Emergency Dispatcher
An emergency. Hi, how you doing? This is security from Beverly Hilton. Hi, what's going on there? I need the paramedics. Apparently you got a 46 year old female found in the bathroom. That's all I've got right now, but they're requesting paramedics. Okay. Female found the bathroom. What room is she in? I'm not sure. She fell. She was in the bathroom with the water. 446-4434. I'm sorry, that's room 434? Yes. Okay. And it's not east, west or anything else. It's room 43434Y. Okay. And you don't know if she was conscious of breathing at all? Apparently she wasn't breathing. And she's 46 year old. She was not breathing? Yes. Okay, but she is breathing now, right? I don't know. She was. The person that called me was irate and much out of there. Okay, I've got security going there now. Okay, we'll send police and fire over there with a person not breathing. Does it sound like the person was still not breathing? Yeah, that's correct. Okay, we'll get them there for not breathing. Is there any way you can get me to the room so I can try to do cpr? Yeah, we're going there now. Can you get me into the room so I can try to give CPR instructions? Oh, I'm sorry. No. Because she kept hanging up on us. Kept hanging up on you? Yeah. Okay. All right, we're good now. Unit's over there. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.
- [29:39]
Dr. William Maroney
Bye.
- [29:39]
Nancy Grace
And there was water in Whitney Houston's lungs indicating she was alive when she was submerged underwater. But according to what we learn, the level of cocaine in Whitney Houston's body was not lethal, but it was enough to make her unaware of the fact she was going underwater. And in an eerie twist, the same thing happens to her daughter. Take a listen to our cut 16.
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Narrator/Reporter
The only child of Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown, Bobbi Kristina Brown wanted to follow her mother's footsteps as a singer and actress. Tyler Perry cast Bobbi Kristina Brown in his television series For Better or Worse and had high praise for her work in her personal life. She became engaged to Nick Gordon, a friend of the family who lived with them from the age of 12. Never officially adopted by Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown, Bobbi Christina Brown referred to him as her big bra. Online, their engagement shocked many. On January 31, 2015, Nick Gordon found Bobbi Kristina face down, unconscious in a bathtub in her home in Alpharetta, Georgia.
- [30:47]
Nancy Grace
And then, just recently, we lose another celebrity. Aaron Carter in our cut 21.
- [30:53]
Narrator/Reporter
As the younger brother of Nick Carter of the Backstreet Boys, Aaron Carter had a connection to the big time. He could sing, he could dance, and he had the look. As with most teen idols when their 15 minutes is up, Aaron Carter struggled. His first stint in a treatment facility was announced by his manager when the singer was just 23. Then a year later, it was announced that he completed a 28 day rehab stint at the Betty Ford Center. On November 4, 2022, Aaron Carter's housekeeper found his body in the bathtub at his home. The Los Angeles county department of medical examiner coroner ruled cause of death was attributed to drowning after inhaling difluoroethane and taking the generic form of the brand name Xanax. The report also indicated that Carter was incapacitated while in the bathtub due to the effects of the drugs he took, which contributed to his death by drowning. Aaron Carter was 34.
- [31:43]
Nancy Grace
You know, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor and author so many people, not just celebrities, die in pools and hot tubs after too many drugs or too much alcohol.
- [31:56]
Karen Stark
Yeah, it's so unfortunate. You know, we only hear about some of these famous people because they're famous. Think about how many men and women, friends, neighbors, family members die in the same way. But maybe don't just grab headlines. It's one of the reasons we always want to reach out sooner rather than later for people that are struggling. And I like the way in that last clip they talked a little bit about what happens after the fame. You know, one of the things that Matthew Perry said, he said taking K is like being hit in the head with a giant happy shovel, but the hangover outweighed the benefits. And that's part of what I think celebrities are getting better at explaining and that yes, perhaps their self medicating, but it's not worth it in the end. And that's one of the messages that Matthew Perry wanted to leave us with
- [32:41]
Nancy Grace
Karen Stark joining us, a renowned psychologist. Karen, we know that Matthew Perry told everyone he had been clean going on two years. Is that common for addicts to insist they're clean?
- [32:58]
Karen Stark
It's tremendous amount of denial, Nancy, because they really are struggling in most cases to be clean. They don't want to be addicted, but they're very, very susceptible. And when you think about somebody who's famous like that, there are always people around who are willing to oblige them with drugs and tempt them with drugs because they want to make them happy. They want to be around a celebrity. It's something that happens all the time. So I am sure he was trying but obviously not succeeding or that ketamine would not have been there.
- [33:34]
Nancy Grace
He had really been through a battle. I want you to take a listen to our Cut four, our friends from crime online, something I didn't know until after Matthew Perry passed away.
- [33:47]
Podcast Advertiser
After years of addiction, Matthew Perry spent five months in the hospital after his colon burst from prolonged opioid abuse. Perry says he was in surgery for seven hours in a coma for two weeks. And doctors told his family he had a 2% chance of survival.
- [34:09]
Nancy Grace
CRIME STORIES with Nancy Grace.
- [34:14]
Wendy Patrick
Oh, please stop. In a letter attached to his sentencing memo, Eric Fleming, the dope dealer, the drug counselor, apologized to Perry's family and wrote, he took full responsibility for my criminal acts, blah, blah, blah. He did that out of one side of his mouth while grabbing and saying I do to a sweetheart deal, a sweetheart sentencing on the other side of his mouth. Fleming said in court. I'm still in disbelief. It's truly a nightmare. What disbelief. You gave Matthew Perry 51 vials of ketamine. Perry was an addict. What did you think was going to happen? What happened the night TV icon and movie star Matthew Perry died?
- [35:03]
Nancy Grace
Dr. William Maroney. Joining us, the preeminent expert in this field. Dr. Maroney I believe that if my colon had burst from prolonged drug use, I would go through hell in high water not to get addicted again. But see, that's me on the outside looking in because I'm not addicted. Addicts tell me that they can't stop themselves.
- [35:31]
Dr. William Maroney
What it is, is there is an insight issue that comes with substance use disorder. And the only way you can rewire the brain, it's like rewiring a vacuum cleaner, rewiring a radio or, you know, rewiring a power strip. You rewire the brain not by feeding the body drugs just as a substitute, but in depth therapy, making selections, looking at the trauma in your life, choosing not to be impulsive, choosing to process your stress. You have to do that with another person face to face. It's not always about the drug. He may have been clean from heroin for two years, but his, his brain was not done processing that impulsivity. And impulsivity, poor processing and lack of insight, those are the three things that substance use disorder people suffer with the every single alcohol, heroin, cocaine, those are the three things. And the only way through that rewiring is with another person in a chair face to face. And that's just not being done today. Everybody wants a pill. They want a quick fix. And these rogue doctors are not getting people the therapy they need. In the end, the same thing is going to happen. Somebody's going to be investigated by the medical board. There'll be another trial in a year. Somebody's going to lose their license. And it's so sad that Matthew Perry had to die this way.
- [37:16]
Nancy Grace
Same thing with Michael Jackson. CONRAD Murray, There was a trial. He gets convicted. In the end, he walks free and Michael Jackson's still dead. Same thing with Matthew Perry. A bright light has been extinguished because of ketamine. And I want to follow up with Miguel Melendez, senior reporter, Entertainment Tonight. Miguel I had no idea that Matthew Perry had been through so much in his battle, even having his colon burst from prolonged opioid abuse. But there's more. Miguel. Let's now cut five.
- [37:57]
Podcast Advertiser
Two years after his near death experience, Matthew Perry goes to a rehab facility in Switzerland. He wrote that he faked pain symptoms to get OxyContin during COVID He was also getting daily Ketamine infusions. While at the facility, Perry needed to have surgery and was given propofol. When he woke up 11 hours later, he found out his heart had stopped for five minutes. And during the long CPR process, eight of his ribs were broken. The doctor then refused more meds.
- [38:25]
Nancy Grace
So this guy, Matthew Perry, I mean, we look at him, Miguel, and we think, wow, he's famous. He's a star. He's got all this money in this beautiful home. This guy was in a living hell that nobody knew about. I mean, he had his colon burst from opioid use. Then he dies, essentially during a surgery, and all eight of his ribs are broken during cpr. And yet he went back to his own hellhole. He couldn't stop himself, Miguel.
- [38:58]
Miguel Melendez
Yeah, I mean, it's tragic. All these near death experiences rooted from his need of these substances. And he wrote in his book that he thought that the only reason why he was revived and given CPR in such aggressive manner was because the person performing the CPR said, I can't let the guy from Friends die on my table. That can't happen on my watch. So in retrospect, Perry asked himself, had I not been on Friends with. But they have stopped giving me CPR after three minutes. Instead, they went five minutes.
- [39:35]
Nancy Grace
Wow. Wow.
- [39:37]
Miguel Melendez
And you talk about these drugs in his system. And even when he was detoxing in the final episode of Friends in 2004, when the episode ended and it all came to a close and everyone felt emotional, not just the cast and the crew, but everyone who was tuned into that show. So Perry himself said in his book that he felt nothing because the detox drug that was in his system at the time made him feel numb. So even in the happiest moments, or what should have been the happiest moments of his life, he felt nothing. And again, it's all rooted because of these substance issues that he's had for so long.
- [40:17]
Nancy Grace
Miguel, you are bringing up a whole nother issue. Not only the battle against addiction, but how it affects your life day to day. He couldn't even feel regular emotions. I mean, you know, this morning when I was driving the twins to school, I was so happy just being with them. What a loss in your life not to be able to feel all those wonderful things. And, guys, we're finding out now how his ketamine addiction began. Take a listen to our cut six. Our friend, investigative reporter Nicole Parton.
- [40:57]
Nicole Parton
Matthew Perry wrote about the ketamine infusions he received at the Swiss Clinic. He explained in his memoir that ketamine quote has my name written all over it. They might as well have called it Maddie. The New York Post reports that Perry described the drug as a giant exhale and said he would be blindfolded and listening to music when he got his injection. Perry also said he would disassociate during the infusions and often felt as if he were dying. Perry said he kept signing up for it because it was something different and anything different is good. Taking Kay is like being hit in the head with a giant happy shovel. But the hangover was rough and outweighed the shovel. Still, in his memoir, Perry says ketamine was not for me.
- [41:44]
Nancy Grace
You know, Dr. Maroney, ketamine is my new nightmare. My new nightmare because I've never known of it actually killing anyone until now.
- [41:55]
Dr. William Maroney
Well, I think the ketamine awareness has went from 0 to 100 on our national barometer. But the whole idea is effective, evidence based. FDA approved ketamine treatment comes with counseling. And where we have rogue doctors and really dark rabbit holes is people are gonna look for this stuff and not match it to the counseling. The lack of feeling that he had meant that he was just altered by drugs, seeing people having emotions, you know, you talked about your kids. I got kids the same age. Where's the celebrities with taking their kids to school? They miss all that stuff. They're in clinics, they're in rehab, their homes are in the hills and nobody has families out there. Let's get back to simple things. If you're going to do ketamine, you're going to seek it out. Seek out the FDA approved ketamine. The counseling, the psychiatrist, a behavioral health clinic, not the rogue. Rogue leads to death.
- [43:07]
Wendy Patrick
I also blame the prosecutors because prosecutors said sentencing guidelines called for Fleming to get up to 57 months. But they prosecutors agreed to a downward departure claiming the drug addiction counselor, AKA dope dealer accepted responsibility.
- [43:32]
Nancy Grace
Seriously?
- [43:33]
Wendy Patrick
Of course he did. Because he was caught red handed. There was a digital chain. The assistant pointed to him. It was a very badly kept secret that he was the supplier.
- [43:45]
Nancy Grace
They had him dead in the water.
- [43:47]
Wendy Patrick
Why agree to a light sentence? Try him and get the max. I'm just. I'm disgusted. The so called Assistant Mr. Iwamasa set for sentencing in just a few weeks. We wait as justice unfolds.
- [44:04]
Nancy Grace
Nancy Grace crime story. Signing off. Goodbye friends.
- [44:13]
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- [44:43]
Narrator/Reporter
Liberty Mutual customizes your car and home insurance. And now we're customizing this rush hour ad to keep you calm, which could help your driver. And science says therapy is great for a healthy mindset. So enjoy this 14 second session on us. I think you've done everything right and absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, anything that hasn't gone your way could probably be blamed on your father not being emotionally available because his father wasn't emotionally available, and so on. And now that you're calm and healing, you're probably driving better too.
- [45:10]
Miguel Melendez
Liberty Liberty.
- [45:11]
Emergency Dispatcher
Liberty. Liberty.
- [45:13]
Nancy Grace
This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.