EPSTEIN BRAGGED: I BLACKMAILED POWERFUL MEN, CLIENT LIST MYSTERY

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: EPSTEIN BRAGGED: I BLACKMAILED POWERFUL MEN, CLIENT LIST MYSTERY
Date: October 23, 2025
Host: Nancy Grace
Guests: Rob Shooter, Lynn Shaw, Barry Levine, Alina Shirazi, Spencer Kuvan, Dr. Bethany Marshall, Sydney Sumner

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Overview

This episode centers on the continuing fallout from Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking operation, focusing on the long-speculated “client list” of powerful men allegedly implicated in abuses. With breaking developments including the posthumous release of survivor Virginia Giuffre's memoir Nobody’s Girl, and fresh moves in U.S. Congress to force greater transparency, Nancy Grace and a panel of journalists, advocates, and legal experts examine the web of complicit individuals, cover-ups, and whether true accountability will ever be achieved — especially as more survivors come forward and high-profile figures like Prince Andrew are pressured to testify.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Epstein's Blackmail and the “Client List”

• Nancy Grace opens by highlighting the mystery and frustration around the client list Epstein allegedly used for blackmail. Despite thousands of pages of files, the list hasn't been released.

  “Jeffrey Epstein bragged, I blackmailed powerful men and we can't come up with a client list.” — Nancy Grace [00:00]

• The episode references mounting pressure for release and speculation on its contents, including references to world leaders and prominent public figures.

2. Virginia Giuffre’s Death & Book Release

• The posthumous release of Virginia Giuffre’s memoir Nobody’s Girl reignites media attention. Her suicide amplifies questions about the dangers facing victims.
• Rob Shooter describes the impact of the book:

  “There are not many new accusations about Prince Andrew... But to have them all together in one place, told through her voice, she's no longer with us. It's almost like she's talking to us, Nancy, from the grave.” — Rob Shooter [03:11]

3. Accountability for Power: The Royals & Political Elite

• Prince Andrew faces renewed scrutiny and possible summons to testify in the U.S. about his links to Epstein and Giuffre.
• Nancy and guests dissect the notorious photo of Andrew with Giuffre, Ghislaine Maxwell present in the background, and public denials from the Duke.
• Lynn Shaw articulates the sentiment among survivors:

  “We are in Washington. We are demanding transparency. We are demanding that Prince, well, whatever his title is now, Andrew, be brought before everybody to give us a clear picture.” — Lynn Shaw [04:50]

4. Government Inaction & Legal Pressure

• Barry Levine recounts how Giuffre gave the FBI names of alleged abusers as far back as 2011, but no substantive action followed.

  “What happened after that FBI interview in Sydney, Australia? What actions were taken by the FBI to corroborate her stories and to interview these men? We don't know.” — Barry Levine [07:21]

• Discussion of Congressional investigations and how some lawmakers, like Rep. Thomas Massie, know the names of at least 19 men linked to Epstein.

  “They're trying to sweep this under the rug, but it just won't go away... Representative Thomas Massie... said that he knows the names of 19 men.” — Barry Levine [16:46]

5. Legal Risks for Victims & Lawyers

• Spencer Kuvan, who represents a dozen Epstein victims, reveals why names aren’t publicly released:

  “They're scared. They're petrified for their lives. If they release any additional information.” — Spencer Kuvan [14:55]

• Ongoing fear, intimidation, and suicide among victims and associates are recurring themes.

6. Details from Giuffre’s Memoir—Abuse, Trafficking, and Evidence

• The panel discusses specific, harrowing incidents from Giuffre’s book, such as her recruitment by Ghislaine Maxwell and alleged encounters with Prince Andrew.

• Dr. Bethany Marshall offers psychological perspective:

  “These are also very salient words... gang rape, gang brutality, torture, mob violence. You know that word, that picture where Prince Andrew has his hand around her waist? ...Ghislaine Maxwell loved the game of guessing the girls' ages before they were raped, tortured, and penetrated.” — Dr. Bethany Marshall [20:06]

• Sydney Sumner reads from the memoir about medical trauma, such as Giuffre’s ruptured ectopic pregnancy, with Epstein and Maxwell later considering her as a surrogate.

  “She was heavily sedated when Epstein took her to the hospital, and afterwards he told her she miscarried. But Virginia later learned she likely suffered a ruptured ectopic pregnancy.” — Sydney Sumner [31:28]

7. Paper Trails: Bribes, Gifts, and More Evidence

• Sydney Sumner discloses details from evidence like a 32,000-item spreadsheet of gifts Epstein provided to clients and victims:

  “Some of the gifts include a $50,000 Steinway piano, a $60,000 diamond necklace and earring set for Maxwell, a $71,000 Lexus for Epstein's lawyer's wife, and a $35,000 watch for one of Clinton's aides.” — Sydney Sumner [38:08]

• Lynn Shaw and Nancy Grace underscore the gulf between modest payoffs for victims and lavish gifts for high-profile enablers.

8. Complicity and the Culture of Silence

• Dr. Bethany Marshall describes how powerful abusers use gifts and blackmail to ensure silence.
• Nancy Grace excoriates public figures implicated in both public apology and secret collusion, focusing especially on Sarah Ferguson (Fergie), Duchess of York:

  “But now we know Fergie has gotten hundreds of thousands of dollars from Epstein. He's been bailing her out of financial woes for years and she's still living the champagne caviar lifestyle.” — Nancy Grace [43:50]
  “It's grotesque, Nancy. It's absolutely grotesque. And it's another example of rich and powerful people saying one thing publicly and another behind the scene.” — Rob Shooter [45:06]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Client List:

  “There's a client list. The names are there. There's no way. The names are not there. Your clients know names. The women that are marching on Washington know names. But yet nothing is happening.”
  — Nancy Grace [15:01]

• On High-Profile Cover-Ups:

  “This is a cover up of massive proportion. The Attorney General in the Virgin Islands... launched an investigation. She was sickened by what she found from information…from the people who worked at the airport, girls as young as 11 and 12 who were getting off planes.”
  — Barry Levine [33:08]

• On Victim Intimidation:

  “These girls are petrified even though Epstein is dead. They are so afraid because the system has let them down time and time and time again over these almost 20 years.”
  — Spencer Kuvan [13:17]

• On Complicity:

  “And all those gifts Jeffrey Epstein gave, it's not only to pay people off, but once they accept the gift, then they're complicit....The gifts are a way to get people into the fold, to get gifts back from them and to buy their silence.”
  — Dr. Bethany Marshall [47:25]

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Key Timestamps

• 00:00 – 01:03: Nancy Grace opens on Epstein’s blackmail claims and the mysterious client list.
• 03:11 – 03:55: Rob Shooter analyzes the impact of Giuffre’s posthumous memoir.
• 04:50 – 06:16: Lynn Shaw describes survivor advocacy and the movement for full accountability.
• 07:21 – 09:09: Barry Levine shares inside details from FBI interviews and legal threats connected to naming abusers.
• 10:19 – 11:47: Alina Shirazi on public interest, the book’s revelations, and Congressional action involving Prince Andrew.
• 13:17 – 15:01: Spencer Kuvan discusses victim intimidation and why survivor names are withheld.
• 16:46 – 17:55: Levine on Congressional efforts and the partial client list known to lawmakers.
• 18:29 – 21:22: Dr. Bethany Marshall delves into the psychology and systemic dynamics of the coverup.
• 21:56 – 23:00: Sydney Sumner summarizes Giuffre’s experiences with Prince Andrew, including detailed abuse allegations.
• 31:28 – 32:00: Sydney Sumner recounts medical trauma and the possibility of Giuffre being used as a surrogate.
• 38:08 – 41:37: Discussion of the spreadsheet cataloging Epstein’s bribes and payments to victims and associates.
• 43:06 – 46:14: Nancy Grace and Rob Shooter critique Sarah Ferguson’s relationship with Epstein.
• 49:14: Nancy Grace encourages listeners to report tips related to the case.

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Tone

Nancy Grace’s signature direct and tenacious style permeates the discussion. The language is blunt, unflinching, and at times accusatory — especially when addressing the negligence or complicity of the powerful. The guests maintain a balance of investigative fact-sharing, personal outrage, and empathy for victims. The overall tone is urgent, righteous, and focused on seeking justice amid overwhelming odds and institutional resistance.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode thoroughly explores the ongoing battle for justice in the wake of the Epstein scandal, with special attention to the new revelations from Virginia Giuffre's memoir and the elite figures shielded from exposure. Listeners are taken through survivor perspectives, legal roadblocks, and the financial and political shields that powerful abusers exploit. Powerful quotes, searing analysis, and new calls for transparency make a compelling case for the need to release the client list and confront the architecture of complicity that has allowed abusers to evade consequences — thus leaving survivors in danger and the public in the dark.

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Contact to report information:
202-225-3465 (Washington, D.C. tip line mentioned by Nancy Grace) [49:14]

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Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an I heart podcast, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jeffrey Epstein bragged, I blackmailed powerful men and we can't come up with a client list. I guess that's one way to put it. A client list. Powerful and wealthy clients that abuse little girls like Virginia Giuffre. This as we also learn that between Virginia Giuffre and Jeffrey Epstein, they have brought down the royal family. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of files.

[Lynn Shaw]

They couldn't call it a suicide because.

[Nancy Grace]

It looked too much like a homicide.

[Spencer Kuvan]

This is a cover up as epic for.

[Barry Levine]

They're trying to make it look like a suicide.

[Spencer Kuvan]

He was never making it out alive.

[Nancy Grace]

All of you naysayers, all of you doubters who don't believe Virginia Jaffrey's story is real, guess what? Word on the street, Prince Andrew is going to be summoned to the US to testify. To testify regarding Epstein's so called client list. Now look at this picture. He said he has never met Virginia Giuffre, that he's never been in Ghislaine Maxwell's home. That that was a fake hand he's got wrapped around that teen girl. And it goes on and on and on in the last days. As we go to air tonight, bombshell out of the blue. Wow, what timing. Virginia Giuffre's book drops posthumously. Yes, she committed suicide. There's nobody's girl. And coincidentally, the night before. Ish. The book drops. Andrew gets stripped of all of his titles. Timing, timing, timing. You know, I've got so much to cover but right there I've got to go straight out to Prguru. Joining us, Rob Shooter. He is a guru to the celebs and he's from Great Britain. What about that your Prince Andrew is getting, let's see. I really don't know how to say it but he, they're gonna try to summon him to the U.S. you know royalty doesn't like to be summoned anywhere. All around the timing of this book dropping. Rob Shooter, host of Naughty But Nice. He is the author of a brand new novel. It started with a whisper and it's climbing up the charts for a good reason. He's at Robsheeter. Substack substack.com Rob Pandemonium in Buckingham palace because of Virginia Giuffre who was abused by Epstein.

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah, yeah. This is a bombshell. This book has literally blown the roof off a story that we knew about for some time. However, having it in her own words. There's the book in her own words is absolutely shocking. I've got hold of a book. I've been pouring through it over the last 24 hours. And let me be honest here. There are not many new accusations about Prince Andrew in the book. However, to have them all together in one place, told through her voice, she's no longer with us. It's almost like she's talking to us, Nancy, from the grave. To have all that together in one book, it's devastating. He's already lost his titles. He's still a prince. He's no longer the Duke of York and he's no longer His Royal Highness.

[Nancy Grace]

Excuse me. You know, he's lost all his titles. He's living rent free in the royal Lodge off his mother's dime, may she rest in peace. I don't want to hear about any of his suffering. Virginia Giuffre, you know what? Straight out to Lynn Shaw joining me. She is the founder and director of Lynn's warriors, dedicated to ending sex abuse and exploitation of girls and women. Prince Andrew, he should be out making a living like everybody else and quit living off the ro dime the taxpayers after this. He should actually be in jail. That's where he should be. And he's whining, he's getting stripped of his titles. Virginia Giuffre and others lived a lifetime of torment, of suffering because of Jeffrey Epstein and his clients.

[Lynn Shaw]

Finally, Nancy, I have spent the day on Capitol Hill. We are getting ready for a lot that is going to drop because the survivors and victims, not only Jeffrey Epstein, all around our country, were waiting for some sort of closure on all of this accountability. And you know what? They were fatigued. They were angry. But you know what? With this book, there is new interest on, let's see, those in charge, those of wealth and power. So we are in Washington. We are demanding transparency. We are demanding that Prince, well, whatever his title is now, Andrew, be brought before everybody to give us a clear picture. We know Virginia Giuffre was never lying. She was made out to be crazy. She was made out to be depressed. She was made out to be just cast aside. And you know what? People knew about all of this for years, for decades, but finally, that picture of her with Prince Andrew with his hand around her midriff, her bare midriff, and Ghislaine in the picture that came forward during that MeToo movement and it just sparked a movement. But now what we're waiting for, we're waiting for names. And I'll tell You why we're waiting for names because there are a lot behind the scenes. There is a list. We know the list. We've seen the list. We can't prove it, but we want those names brought forward in front of Congress and demand accountability for all survivors and victims. Again, not only of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, all the other complicit people involved, this is a good day.

[Nancy Grace]

You know what? Speaking of all the other complicit people involved, joining us is Barry Levine. He is the author of the Inside the Tangled Web of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. He's a veteran investigative reporter and editor in print and tv. Barry, you know what? That picture completely skeeves me out. And I think a jury would feel the same way because can I see the picture of Andrew with his hand wrapped around 18 girl, Virginia, then a teen girl, Virginia Giuffre? Because what is so off putting? Look how everybody's smiling like it's all okay. Look at that. Gillian Maxwell smiling. It's wrong. It's as if it's okay. It's accepted. It's not. And why is it it takes a book like this and the Victim's Marching on Washington to get the client list? I don't get it. Levine.

[Barry Levine]

Listen, Nancy, the book was so difficult to go through because even though I had gone through thousands of pages of deposition documents, court papers and other confidential information about Virginia's story, hearing her in her own words was so revolting. As a father, it just absolutely disgusted me. And what disgusted me even more, Nancy, was her disclosure in the book that the FBI sat down with her in 2011 and they showed her photos of all the men that she had referenced. I had counted 11 men that she referenced in her book. What happened after that FBI interview in Sydney, Australia? What actions were taken by the FBI to corroborate her stories and to interview these men? We don't know that that information, that confidential information is likely sitting in the FBI files that the government is still refusing to release after saying that there was no blackmail, that there was no client list. It is ludicrous. We need to find out what action was taken by the FBI to corroborate her stories. I named the men in my book. I went through each of them. Many of them I named under legal threat, legal letters that I received and my publisher received. But the fact of the matter is, these men, three of them are dead. But the remaining men need to be subpoenaed by the government, by the oversight committee. They need to be brought forward and answer questions as to what their relationship with.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, what is so disturbing? And I'm going to throw this to Alina Shirazi joining us to senior political reporter with DailyMail.com has been on this from the very beginning. Alina Shirazi, thank you for being with us. You know, I was just hearing Barry Levine talking about getting these legal threat letters from the people he named in the book lawsuit. Fat chance. Not happening. Why? Because Levine could go to court and call them. Unlike in a criminal case, when you cannot call a criminal defendant, you can call the target. In a civil case, Levine could walk into court if they sued him. And the first thing he could do is call the alleged person on the client list and put them on the stand and cross examine them as a hostile witness. You think they're going to sign up for that? That's not happening. Alina Shirazi, what's happening? Has Virginia Giffre's book Nobody's Girl moved the dial at all? What do I have to do, light a stick of dynamite under Bondi's rear end to get this client list? Because there is a client list.

[Alina Shirazi]

Yeah. I mean, in Amy Wallace, the ghostwriter, she calls it a catalog of horrors. And I mean, as for the people involved, she did mention, right. In the book, a former prime minister. And if you look at the document dumps, it actually does mention former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak. And while Amy Wallace says she can't exactly reveal the names for several reasons. Right. Because Vir, she wanted to protect, you know, just her sanity, her children, there's a lot of reasons as to why, you know, when people say, well, why don't you just release all of the names? She just wanted to be okay for a minute. She was obviously struggling. She committed suicide before this book came out. So she was just looking for a little bit of that sanity. But as you just put the pieces together, you can see some of these names start to come to fruition. And a Congress, right. I mean, Prince Andrew, so much information has come out about him. Representative Stephen lynch told the BBC that the House Oversight Committee is going to be questioning him. They're interested in hearing from him. So we certainly see a lot of this start to unravel. And I think that it's only a matter of time before all of this comes out. President Trump said he campaigned on this. He said that he would release the Epstein files, he would release the list. So people are still waiting for that to happen. And Maxwell is still sitting pretty in this nice prison hoping for A pardon from the president.

[Nancy Grace]

You know what? I want to follow up on what you're saying. For some reason, the client list, the files have not been made public. And I was hoping against hope that the publication of Jeffrey's book would move the needle on that happening. To Spencer Kuvan. Joining us, Chief Legal Officer Gold Law, who has represented at least nine Epstein victims. Your clients know the names or the names of some of the people that abused him? Nine now adult women. And as I've told many, many juries, look at all these people testifying against him. You think they all got together, separated in time and space, and made up an incredibly simple similar story? The same thing happened every time they get called to the mansion. They get told they're gonna give a massage to Jeffrey Epstein. They meet with Ghislaine Maxwell. Maxwell goes in the room with him. Maxwell strips Epstein's naked. Same story over and over. You know what? If that was my child, I swear I would burn down the courthouse because nothing is being done. What about your clients? Nine of them, last count, that know the names of their predators. Why have they not been released? Why aren't you releasing them?

[Spencer Kuvan]

Well, that's a very good question. But the more important question is why hasn't the government released them? My clients. Now, this dates back to 2007, when I first started representing these young girls. We're going on almost 20 years where this investigation began. And back then, my clients interviewed with the FBI and gave them all of the information. Now, you've got to understand, These young girls, 15, 16 years old at the time, were surveilled and harassed ruthlessly by the Epstein team. Epstein hired private investigators to follow them around in vans and trucks, take pictures of them, interview their family members, interview their boyfriends about sexual positions, things that they had done in their life. These girls are petrified even though Epstein is dead. They are so afraid because the system has let them down time and time and time again over these almost 20 years. So as a result, they're relying on the federal government to do their job. And more importantly, as I've always said, the information is contained not just in the list, but more importantly in the videotapes that the government has seized at all three mansions at Epstein.

[Nancy Grace]

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin, I'm going to circle back because you didn't answer. You sidestepped it. Why is it that you and your clients do not release the list of your clients predators? Just. Just give me an answer. What is it?

[Spencer Kuvan]

They're scared. They're petrified for their lives. If they Release any additional information.

[Nancy Grace]

There's another way to get this list, Ben. So there's another way to get the list. I don't expect the list to be lying there in gold leaf. You have to read the files. You and I have combed through enough boxes of documents. Boy, when I was a Fed, I lived combing through boxes of documents. And from those documents, you get names. It could be on an email. It could be on a phone log. It could be on a flight log. It could be communications back and forth. It could be an appointment book where you get names. That's the client list. The names are there. There's no way. The names are not there. Your clients know names. The women that are marching on Washington know names. But yet nothing is happening. You know what's very interesting? Back to Barry Levine. Hold on, Dr. Bethany, I'm coming. Barry Levine. Right now, there is an Arizona congressperson. She won in September, but they are refusing. Washington is refusing the speaker of the House. You don't like what I'm saying, Speaker, Come and get me. The speaker of the House refuses to swear her in. Why? Because she is going to vote for the files to be released. She hasn't been sworn in. It's almost November. She was elected, duly elected, in September. And I don't care what she is. If she's a Republican, a Democrat, a Greenie, don't care. They are keeping her out from being sworn in because she is going to cast that vote for the Epstein files to be produced.

[Barry Levine]

That's absolutely correct, Nancy. They're trying to sweep this under the rug, but it just won't go away. And in fact, we know that Representative Thomas Massie, who's a Republican, who's been pushing to get these files released, he said that he knows the names of 19 men. Okay, so Virginia cited 11 men in her book. He knows the names of eight additional men. We now have a list, at least he does, of 19 men. Why isn't the FBI all over this? Why isn't Bondi directing the FBI, Keshe Patel, to go through those 19 names? For God's sakes, bring. We know three of them are dead. And maybe some of the eight that he referenced could be dead also. But the fact is, those that remain alive need to be brought in. They need to be questioned, and they need to have the heat turned up on them as to what their relationship was with Virginia, with Jeffrey Epstein, with Maxwell.

[Nancy Grace]

You know what I'd also like to find out? I'd like to find out not only the names of these Predators that are rolling in money, power, prestige, that have been living their lives like nothing happened. Dr. Bethany Marshall. They're that arrogant, they're that convinced they'll get away with it. And so far they have. And I'd like to know, and I guess it's going to take a Watergate type proceeding to find out what's been said in Washington that has stymied this investigation.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

You know, Nancy, this whole group psychology is like the family where a little girl's being molested. Mommy looks the other way because she wants to hang on to the love of daddy. In this case, Mommy being the government, daddy being all these rich, powerful men. The little girl being Virginia Jeffries. You know what's so sad? What I read in this book is that she was molested by her own dad. When she worked at Mar A Lago. She was so excited to have this new job. Galen Maxwell waltzes in looking all fancy, promises her to learn massage, and that very same day she's molested. Do you know, Nancy, she was so brutalized on the Lolita Express that she feared for her life. This is not just sexual abuse like giving oral sex or being penetrated or fondled. This is older, rich, powerful men and women brutalizing her. I think we really need to cast a spotlight on that. This is sadism. This is cruelty. This is beating her up. We keep saying, Bethany, we're sex trafficked.

[Nancy Grace]

Bethany. It was tolerated, it was condoned, it was encouraged. And can't you imagine Jiffere and so many other girls like her, teenager girls as young as 12 at Lolita island with Epstein, you couldn't get off the island. You could only get there by a ferry with all of these old guys. Can you imagine if they're smiling for the camera, that it's all okay? Imagine the environment right there in that compound.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

You know, Nancy, the word sex trafficking and sex abuse has almost lost its meaning. We've used it so many times. So let's use. Use another word. Gang rape, gang brutality, torture, mob violence. These are also very salient words. You know that word, that picture where Prince Andrew has his. His hand around her waist? Do you know that Gillan Maxwell told Jeffries that morning, this is going to be a great day. This is according to the book. Get up. This is going to be a great day. You're going to meet a prince. She was so excited because she bought into the fairy tale. So she, she brought her little point and shoot camera and she said to Galen Maxwell, will you take a picture of us? Poor little thing. She thought she was meeting a prince who would treat her like a princess. And Galen Maxwell then plays a game that she did with all the perpetrators. Can you guess how old Virginia Jeffries is? According to the book Andrew Prince Andrew replies, 17. I know because I have girls who are just a little bit younger. So all of this they didn't know how old the girls were. They did because Gill and Maxwell loved the game of guessing the girls ages before they were raped, tortured and penetrated.

[Sydney Sumner]

Virginia writes she was instructed to have sex with Prince Andrew on three separate occasions. Maxwell told her their first meeting would be just like Cinderella, though Virginia says Andrew behaved like it was his birthright to have sex with her. Though they only spent about 30 minutes together behind closed doors, Virginia repeats the claim Andrew visited her in New York just a month later and and also describes a third orgy on Epstein's island with the prince and other young girls.

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[Nancy Grace]

Release the files.

[Rob Shooter]

Tens of thousands of documents related to Epstein are refusing to release.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Now we've got the administration telling us.

[Nancy Grace]

Look the other way.

[Lynn Shaw]

We got orange blobs.

[Nancy Grace]

We got a guy who looks like.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

You know, he supposedly killed himself with orange paper towels.

[Anna Bay (advertisement voice)]

Please.

[Nancy Grace]

In the last days, Virginia Giuffre's book Nobody's Girl has been released. Will it make a difference? We earlier heard a guest describing her suicide, but you know what to Alina Shirazi joining a senior reporter with DailyMail.com there are estimates. I mean, I think I've counted six people that committed suicide connected to Epstein, including Epstein Giffre Epstein's supplier out of France, Jean Luc Brunel. He committed suicide much like Epstein behind bars. Several of the child trafficking victims and Dr. Bethany and Lynn Shock and explain why victims adult Victims of child sex abuse go on to commit suicide. But it's quite the coincidence, don't you think, that so many people just before they are to testify commit suicide. I feel like I'm in Russia and someone's going to get thrown out the window or poisoned just before their testimony. You just heard Spencer Kuvan who is a high profile lawyer, chief legal officer Gold Law, who represents going on 12 of the then child victims of Epstein saying they're afraid, they should be afraid. The victims are dropping like flies.

[Alina Shirazi]

Alina, I mean you always say timing, timing, timing, right? Nancy, I always hear you say that and you have to think about that. The timing of these suicides certainly is something to be examined for these young girls who have just been through so much for so many key figures involved. We're obviously keeping an eye as well on Ghislaine Maxwell to see what happens to her in that Texas prison which has a ton, a ton of security but also the timing of other things like Prince Andrew and when he decided he would relinquish his title, the Duke of York. He still is a prince but people are pushing for that further.

[Nancy Grace]

Hold one moment. The way you said that, I don't like it. I don't like anything you just said and I'll tell you why. Isn't it true, Rob Shooter, that Andrew is still insisting that people say your highness and that he holds on to some type of title?

[Rob Shooter]

Absolutely behind the scenes. I know a lot of people in the palace who work at the Royal Lodge. They're saying that behind the scenes he's still, he's still Prince Andrew. His staff at the house, his 30 room mansion that he's not paying any rent for.

[Barry Levine]

Let me.

[Nancy Grace]

Staff Andrew has a staff.

[Rob Shooter]

He does.

[Nancy Grace]

And gets his teeth to do what? Brush his teeth and wipe his. Why does he have a staff? Why are they, you know what if the Brits want to pay for it, you know, that's on them. So Alina Shirazi, I don't know that he voluntarily relinquished his title. I think he got called in, summoned into a meeting with Charles and William and he got a spanky, spanky and they stripped him of his titles. That's what I think they want nothing.

[Alina Shirazi]

To do with it. It's such a big distraction from the Buckingham palace and certainly the first time you put a gagging order on Virginia, he claimed that he was thinking about the Queen. I mean the entire royal family wants to separate themselves as far away from this as possible. And Prince William, we know as well from our reporting he wants to separate himself from his uncle. There's been so many events just this past week with the Royal Family, where they even did put out a statement saying, we want to focus on what we're. We don't want to focus on things surrounding that. And obviously they meant this. So this is a bad look. This is a horrible.

[Nancy Grace]

Elena, Remember just recently there was a big royal funeral, not within the British royal family, but another royal family, and everyone attended. And it was this special moment. And then all of a sudden, here comes Andrew lurking and trying to have a conversation on camera with William, who looked at him, went, ugh. It is like a dark cloud over them. And they represent. Like it or not, they represent Great Britain. He should not be walking free, popping up at royal events.

[Alina Shirazi]

It's a huge distraction. The situation has festered. They thought that by having him put out a statement in his own way, our reporting shows, saying that he would voluntarily relinquish his title of Duke of York, which, as we talked about, Nancy, was certainly not the case. It was a sort of PR outreach on that end. But him trying to come out with a statement in that. In that way, they think it's going to all just go away. No, it actually put even more attention on the Royal family. So no matter what way you try.

[Nancy Grace]

And the way you said that, Elena, the more is try more. They try to sweep it under the rug. It festers. It boils up. And that's the same thing that's happening here with these Epstein files. And it's not just Democrats trying to bring down the White House, it's Democrats and Republicans because they know that this is wrong. I mean, you know, shooter, it'll be a cold day in he doublel that Andrew voluntarily says here have all my titles and all the pop and all the circumstances. Circumstance that did not happen.

[Rob Shooter]

Didn't happen. And even his statement actually says that. In the statement, he uses the word we. We have decided that I will step away from these titles, not I. So there's more than him involved here. My sources are telling me this is William. William is disgusted what happened at the Duchess of Kent's funeral that you referenced, Nancy. He's disgusted at having Andrew around. And this is the problem they have. The Royal Family is a family business. They want him out of the business, but he's still a blood member of the family. They've tried to walk this difficult path of letting him come to family events, funerals, Christmas. Neither decided no more after that display at the Duchess.

[Nancy Grace]

I've got bigger problems than whether Andrew celebrates Christmas at Sandringham. Okay? I don't care. What I want is this client list. And I want the predators put behind bars. Jeffrey lived her whole life destroyed by what had happened to her, just like all the other little girls. Now, women, I just want. It's. Nobody likes to let their mind go there. But you have to imagine, Levine, isn't it true girls as young as 12 years old were brave being brought to Lolita island, which is under U.S. jurisdiction there in the U.S. virgin Islands? Brought there, flown in from the stands, from Turkey, from France. Little girls, some as young as 12, they are flown there, they are taken off the plane, they're put on a ferry, they're taken over to the island, and they are sex abused. What does sex abuse mean? They are raped. They have sex with Epstein and his clients. And if we sit back and let this happen, Giuffre is dead. Everybody keeps saying suicide. I'm not sold on that. Or Epstein committing suicide. That said, who's gonna fight now? Who is going to stand up to Bondi and others that refuse to seek justice? There has to be evidence, Levine, the ferry workers, the pilots, the people that process their travel. For Pete's sake, there is a trail of mile. And you know what? There's more evidence. There's got to be a hospital record of this. Listen, Levine, if you can stomach it.

[Sydney Sumner]

Nobody's girl touches on a harrowing medical emergency at age 17, when Virginia woke up in a pool of blood with stabbing abdominal pain. She was heavily sedated when Epstein took her to the hospital, and afterwards he told her she miscarried. But Virginia later learned she likely suffered a ruptured ectopic pregnancy. The memoir also claims Epstein and Maxwell broached the idea of Virginia acting as a surrogate for them, aligning with newly released emails between the couple discussing fertility testing.

[Nancy Grace]

What did I just hear? Wait a minute. That she was even. Virginia Giuffre was even considered carrying the as a surrogate, the baby of Epstein and Maxwell. Talk about Rosemary's baby. Oh, you remember Rosemary's Baby with Mia Farah? Remember that? Levine and Mia Farah had the devil's baby. The devil's baby. They were considering using Virginia Giuffre, this little teen girl, to carry their baby as a surrogate. If that baby did not come out with horns and a tail, you know, strike me down lightning. But there has to be evidence of that ectopic pregnancy. Save where Virginia Giuffre went to the hospital to bolster her testimony. Of course, she can never testify now she's dead. I'm sure they're all happy about that because that's one less witness they've got to deal with. Levine.

[Barry Levine]

Listen, Nancy, there were cover ups not only in the US but in the Virgin Islands, where his island was in England. I mean, I know from researching my book, Epstein had doctors and nurses on his island to deal with the issues of these girls that were raped as young as 11 and 12 years old. Jean Luc Brunel brought over, flew over at least a thousand girls to Epstein under the guise of, they're going to be models, we're going to make them models. And he brought them from all these different countries and they were abused. One girl even tried to. She was so frightened. A young girl, she tried to think about swimming off the island. The shark infested waters off the island, only to have Jeffrey Epstein's security detail bring her back and chain her up in her bedroom. This is a cover up of massive proportion. The Attorney General in the Virgin Islands, the former Attorney General Denise George, after Epstein's death, launched an investigation. She was sickened by what she found from information, as you said, from the people who worked at the airport, girls as young as 11 and 12 who were getting off planes. What Epstein would do would he would have them dress up in college university sweatshirt in an attempt to make them look older, as if they were in college, when in fact these were children.

[Nancy Grace]

You know what, you just gave me chills all over because that's the kind of detail I look for when I am trying to assess a witness's credibility. Again, to wear out a phrase. It would be a cold day in he doublel that I would put a witness on the stand that I did not believe. But what you just said, that it was Epstein's idea to dress the little girls some. 12 is what I heard you just said 11 in college sweatshirts and T shirts to make people think that they were college age. How do you just make up a fact like that? I believe that, that, yeah, this is.

[Barry Levine]

Information that the Attorney General turned up in her investigation. And you know, she, she said that the estate, Epstein's estate, which she finally got to force a compensation fund for the victims, that it was a criminal conspiracy in terms of what went on over there. You have to remember that after he received that slap on the wrist conviction down In Florida in 2008, he wanted to conduct his sex trafficking away from the eyes of police in Florida and New York. And he primarily moved his operation to the Virgin Islands where he had all these international fixers put these young girls on planes. It is a cover up of massive proportion and nobody wants to investigate this except for a very few in the government like Thomas Massie and Senator Roy Wyden who is going down a financial trail to try to determine who Epstein paid from $1 billion worth of wire transfers that he turned up. So you know, this is something that still needs investigation and we need to find these men who are overseas. We need to find the men who put these young girls on plan.

[Sydney Sumner]

Virginia Giuffre's posthumous memoir Nobody's Girl describes in excruciating detail how Ghislaine Maxwell recru her into Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking ring. Virginia speaks to the reader urging them to continue despite the frequently stomach churning content. Virginia explains the content of this book is crucial. It is imperative that the truth is understood and that the issues surrounding this topic are addressed both for the sake of justice and awareness.

[Nancy Grace]

They've admitted there's thousands and thousands of pages. We've been told over and over and over that what's in those files is shocking.

[Alina Shirazi]

We're going to get rid of the deep state.

[Lynn Shaw]

We're going to show you all of the files.

[Nancy Grace]

Why not release them? Lies, lies, lies. What are they hiding? What are they hiding? Why not release the files? How many people have to die by suicide before anyone pays attention to what happened to these young girls? How are these clients still shrouded in mystery? The indicia of reliability and respectability? How are they going about their lives like nothing happened? I was speaking to Barry Levine, author of the Inside the Tangled Web of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, about hard proof, like a hospital visit with Jafre's ectopic pregnancy. But what about this?

[Sydney Sumner]

One email includes a 32000 item spreadsheet detailing gifts Epstein financed for powerful associates and his victims. Some of the gifts include a $50,000 Steinway piano, a $60,000 diamond necklace and earring set for Maxwell, a $71,000 Lexus for Epstein's lawyer's wife, and a $35,000 watch for one of Clinton's apes. Maxwell also documents gift cards to lingerie shop, flowers, chocolates, laptops and education and rent payments made to victims.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace Sydney Sumner joining me. Crime stories investigative reporter. Looks like the victims, the little girls were a lot cheaper to buy off. Lingerie. Who needs another pair of underwear? Flowers, chocolate, a laptop, pay the rent. When a presidential aide got a $35,000 watch, someone else got a Steinway piano, a $71,000 Lexus. That's just the tip of the iceberg. Sidney Sumner, who was paid off, got bribes, got so called gifts that were enabling child sex trafficking.

[Lynn Shaw]

Sydney yes, that spreadsheet is just a staggering document to go through. The records are just it's horrible Looking at how easily these young girls were paid off or appeased in some way to continue performing what they performed for Jeffrey Epstein, their rent payments, payments for SAT classes, a laptop and there's other things, off road vehicles to the tune of almost $100,000 for a minor. These gifts, we don't know how many of them were accepted. And Clinton's aide, who was I gu in those emails denies that he ever received that $35,000 watch. But it is just staggering how far Jeffrey Epstein's reach extended. And Ghislaine Maxwell facilitated and bought most of these gifts herself.

[Nancy Grace]

The two of them, the devil and his hench person literally make me sick. Listen to this that we've discovered about emails between the two of them.

[Sydney Sumner]

Ghislaine Maxwell insists she was not close with Epstein after 2003. But nearly 650 emails between the financier and socialite begged to differ. They discuss his initial sexual abuse case. Gifts to both powerful contacts and the minors they abused, plans to discredit women, raising allegations against Epstein and shared fertility procedures.

[Nancy Grace]

I mean right there in emails, gifts were being given to the so called clients, AKA dirty old men and their victims. Why were these expensive gifts a $50,000 Steinway, a $71,000 Lexus and more and more being given to the clients that the little girl then little girl victims actually name? How can the U.S. attorney turn the other way?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Me?

[Nancy Grace]

It's such a sham. I'm very curious the way that is being portrayed to us, as if there are no files, there's nothing to see. While a monarchy is under siege. I'm talking about Fergie. Listen.

[Sydney Sumner]

Prince Andrew's ex wife Sarah Ferguson is exposed to Epstein. Leaked emails showing that while the Duchess of York publicly apologized for her Epstein association, she privately apologized to him weeks later calling him a supreme friend. In a 2011 interview, Fergie says it was a gigantic error in judgment to accept money from Epstein as she abhors pedophilia. But weeks later, in a private email to Epstein, she humbly apologizes. Insiders say Epstein threatened a lawsuit suit and Fergie sent her email to appease him. Leaked emails showing a 15 year history of money and friendship with Epstein is costing Sarah Ferguson as at least seven major organizations cut ties with the Duchess.

[Nancy Grace]

Rob Sheeter joining us, host of Naughty but Nice podcast and author of a new hit book. It started with a whisper shooter. I loved Fergie from the get go. She and Diana, my total favorites. But now we know Fergie has gotten hundreds of thousands of dollars from Epstein. He's been bailing her out of financial woes for years and she's still living the champagne caviar lifestyle. Now wait a minute. I don't know if they say this in the uk, but here we say it when you don't know a horse. Look at her track record. We know Fergie, the Duchess of York, Sarah Ferguson was caught on video in a sting where she was accepting tens of thousands of dollars to introduce somebody to Andrew. So we know she will use her position and get money for it. So I don't know what she was doing with all of Epstein's money, but she gave this public apology. Oh, I had no idea he was a pedophile. And secretly writing him. I'm so sorry I said that. You're my supreme friend. What a load of bs.

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah, it's grotesque, Nancy. It's absolutely grotesque. And it's another example of rich and powerful people saying one thing publicly and another behind the scene. I think like you, I really liked Fergie. I've met her several times. And now we've realized the person that we thought she is, she simply isn't. And it's just another example of these awful people tricking us. Not just their victims, but all of us. This has been a mass cover up and one that has been really successful until now. And now thankfully, finally.

[Barry Levine]

Hey Shooter, I'll interchange.

[Nancy Grace]

You know we've got the Ten Commandments, right, But there's also the seven deadly sins. And one of them is gluttony. Gluttony. All the champagne, all the caviar, all the chauffeured limos waiting outside for 18, 20 hours until she decides she's not gonna go. The mansions, the gifts, the stationery, the clothes. What was she spending millions of dollars on?

[Rob Shooter]

Herself. Nancy herself. She made no money as a royal. She's living rent free in her ex husband's house. She doesn't even have her own apartment. She's staying with her ex husband. The mistake we make when we think we know royalty is we think they're really, really wealthy. And a lot of them are, but many of them are not, Nancy. They live this fabulous life, but if you check in their bank accounts, it's not a lot of money. And so Sarah here was using people like Jeffrey Epst to get cash, and in exchange he was getting access to power and access to cover ups.

[Nancy Grace]

She and Andrew are perfect for each other. I feel so bad for their daughters, Beatrice and Eugenie. Dr. Bethany Marshall. You heard Spencer Kuven say his clients are afraid. I guess so. Because you've got Prince Andrew and the Duchess of York cozying up with Epstein. Who's going to believe them over the British royal family, for Pete's sake? And presidents and wealthy individuals, CEOs of companies. And these little girls are saying, he raped me.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Yes. These girls feel so disadvantaged. You know, one of the things I read in the book, Virginia Jeffrey's book, is that she would travel around the United States with her ghost writer trying to find people who would corroborate the fact that she had been on the island because she was so desperate to have some acknowledgement and some justice. And then we see this vast cover up that you're talking about, this vast machine against which she had no power, she had no chance. Nancy. And that's what makes me so sad about this. You know, a detail that I think is quite interesting, because you were talking about evidence, is that in her book she writes that she was called to give a massage to a very wealthy, powerful man whose wife was pregnant. It was at a hotel, fancy hotel. She gives the wife a normal massage. The wife goes to bed, she starts to give the husband a massage, and then she realizes it's an abusive massage. So she was sex trafficked. Once again there, that's yet another story that you cannot make up. Who was that wife? What did she know? Why is that person not coming forward? Is she covering up for her husband? People are covering up for so, so many reasons. And all those gifts Jeffrey Epstein gave, it's not only to pay people off, but once they accept the gift, then they're complicit. And we saw this with, with P. Diddy. He would do things to make people complicit in his crimes so that then they would not turn him in, like taping them having sex with minors or whatever. And then he would have that tape as evidence. So the gifts are a way to get people into the fold, to get gifts back from them and to buy their silence.

[Nancy Grace]

A case is being built. There are people that are fighting for these victims. If you know or you think you know anything about this case, Epstein, Maxwell, the clients, or the client list, please die. 202-225-3465. Repeat. 202-225-3465. Yes, it's a Washington, D.C. number, but don't be afraid. 202-225-3465. We wait and pray as justice unfolds. And now we remember an American hero, Officer Lauren Craven, La Mesa PD, just 25, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind, as you can imagine, grieving parents Karen and David. American hero, Officer Lauren Craven. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I Heart podcast.