Nancy Grace (3:12)

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jeffrey Epstein's brother is furious, insisting this is no dirt nap note, no sayonara, no goodbye note, no death note. It didn't happen. He says the handwriting doesn't match. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

Mark Epstein (3:38)

It was not a suicide. The initial death certificate said under cause of death pending further study. They came out of the autopsy saying that they couldn't cause it a suicide because it looked too much like a homicide.

Nancy Grace (3:53)

Was Jeffrey Epstein murdered behind bars just before reams tons volumes of top secret information was set to be released and what in that information points to if it does to wealthy, privileged, powerful individuals from all around the world. Joining us tonight, special guest Jeffrey Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein, who insists this was no death note. Straight out to special guest joining us tonight, Mark Epstein. This is Jeffrey Epstein's brother. He along with many are convinced Jeffrey Epstein was murdered from behind bars. And it's not just his blood brother saying that multiple medical examiners and medical professionals and death investigators agree. Mark Epstein, thank you for being with us tonight.

Mark Epstein (4:51)

It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me on.

Nancy Grace (4:54)

What was your response when you heard claims that handwriting, handwriting experts insist your brother wrote the recent note?

Mark Epstein (5:04)

Well, I'm surprised to hear that because I was given a report where they compared that note to three other things that they know Jeffrey wrote and they said it's not the same. So. But more, more important than that note, which I'll get back to. Okay. Is that, you know, I've been talking about the report that's being done about Jeffrey's murder. You know, they were studying the autopsy like it should have been studied years ago and they've the report will be out soon. It's currently being peer reviewed. But I've been read part of that report. Again, the report is not being done on my behalf. I'm not paying for this. It's independent pathologists and they inclusively decided that Jeffrey could not have taken himself out because the due to the injuries and bruises on his body, they could not have been self inflicted. So they know for a fact that he was killed because it could not have, he could not have done it. Himself. Now if we go back to the note, this note sort of after the July incident where they thought there was, they were saying there was an attempt by Jeffrey to take himself out. Now we know that's not the case. We know that his cellmate roughed him up. And after that incident in July, Jeffrey reported that his cellmate roughed him up. And that's documented. You can find that in the reports, in the files later. Soon thereafter, he recanted. And then he said he couldn't remember what happened. You know what happened. He changed his story because he didn't want to be retaliated against. It's one thing to be in prison as a pedophile. It's also not a good thing to be in prison as a snitch. So he said he didn't remember what happened. That's why he was taken off of suicide watch so quickly. Now that we know, we know that it was not an attempt to take himself out. Therefore there would be no reason for there to be a note of that kind.

Nancy Grace (6:56)

Wow, Mark Epstein, you just did a massive data dump on me and that is a lot of information to take in. And when you explain it the way you just did, it makes perfect sense. Let me understand. There were claims that your brother Jeffrey Epstein tried to hurt himself back in July. You are saying that is not true, that what really happened is a roommate attacked him, a cellmate, another inmate attacked him and he reported the attack. But then to avoid being called a snitch, he recanted and said I don't remember. It will be a cold day in he doublel that Jeffrey Epstein doesn't remember a near fatal attack. He remembered. So why did he say I don't remember? You're right.

Mark Epstein (7:49)

Yeah, he was afraid of retaliation. So he just said he didn't remember. And again, that's why he was taken off of the watch. If he was, if it was a true attempt to take himself out, to take him off of watch would be gross malpractice for any psychologist that would have recommended it. And Bill Barr in his testimony under oath said he was taken off of watch because a psychologist or somebody said it would be better. That's nonsense. That's more of Bill Barr's bull cover up story.

Nancy Grace (8:18)

You know, that's a really good point, Mark Epstein. Joining us tonight is Jeffrey Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein, who insists and has insisted from day one that the INJ on his brother's body were not self inflicted. He knows Epstein better than anybody living knows Epstein now. Interesting point that you Just made an interesting legal point, Mark Epstein, and that is there was never a civil suit or any suit filed at all when your brother was taken off the death watch because the psychologist knew and said it in their written reports. He would never have hurt himself. Which adds corroboration and credibility to your account, which is supported by the facts. And that account is that another inmate attacked your brother. A near fatal attack, a serious beating. Your brother reported the attack, but then when questioned by authorities, he, he backed off and said he didn't remember what happened so he would not be branded a snitch. Wow. Okay, let's pick it up right there. Continue with us tonight, Mark Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's brother, on the alleged dirt nap Note. Go ahead, Mr. Epstein.

Mark Epstein (9:39)

When I first heard on CNN the morning they found him, that's how I found out that he was found, you know, apparently dead from an apparent, you know, self inflicted act. I believed it. I had no reason to doubt it. I figured, well, he, this is what he decided to do. And I respected his decision. He was potentially facing a very long time in jail. I knew he wouldn't want to live that way. He didn't have any kids to worry about. He was single, our parents were gone. He didn't have to worry about me. So I just had no reason to doubt it. But the next day when they did the autopsy and both highly qualified forensic pathologists came out of the autopsy and they said they couldn't call this, they couldn't say he did it himself because it looked too much like a homicide. That's when I said, wait a second, you know what's going on here? And that's when things started getting interesting and we started finding out about all the screw ups in the prison. And as more and more information comes out, the suicide looks at me. The theory that he took himself out is being knocked out of the box. And with the release of the report in the next few weeks, you'll see that he did not do this to himself. Which only leaves homicide, because the other there's only four ways to die. You know, you could take yourself out, you could die of natural causes, which we know didn't happen to Jeffrey. You could have an accidental death. We know he wasn't hit by a bus. And the fourth is homicide. So the government, the DOJ keeps with all the information that comes out, they keep saying, yeah, but he took himself out, you know, yeah, but he took himself out, you know, the cameras weren't working. Yeah, but he took himself. This is, yeah, we get the year but he took himself out. Well, this report will knock out the theory that he took himself out. So the only thing left is homicide. And then the question becomes who killed him and. Or who had him killed. They should be a homicide investigation because he was killed.

Nancy Grace (11:34)

Mark Epstein, you have referred to an upcoming report. What will the report be? Who is creating the report and why?

Mark Epstein (11:43)

It's done by independent pathologists. I'm not divulging their names because now. Because I don't want them harassed, you know, by the media. I know how much I get harassed by the media. I want them to do their work. And they will release the report. You will find out who they are and what this is all about, you know, when they release the report. Again, it's not my report. They're not doing this on my behalf. They contacted me, you know, months, many months ago. And I just provided them with all the information that I had about the autopsy. The photographs of his body, the X rays, the medical records. And again, on the initial death certificate we got that they did the autopsy, you know, six and a half years ago on under cause of death. It said pending further study. Well, that study had never been done because by quickly calling, by quickly saying Jeffrey took himself out, there's no reason to investigate anything. So it shuts down any investigation. That's why they did it that way. That's why it was quickly called. It was quickly determined that he took himself out erroneously. Because all the pathologists I've spoken to since have told me that when an initial death certificate says pending further study, under cause of death, you don't get an answer for weeks because something's being studied, something's being investigated that was never done here. I'm going to ask you a question. What are you basing your idea that Jeffrey took himself out on?

Nancy Grace (13:09)

As we've discussed several times before, Mark Epstein. I have always thought from day one that Jeffrey Epstein was murdered behind bars. And the single most convincing fact for me has nothing to do with politics. It has nothing to do with malfeasance or misconduct or bad guards, bad cameras, nothing. It has to do with the facts. It has to do with the markings on your brother's neck. I have handled, prosecuted and investigated and covered more homicides than I can count. I can't even remember them all. When a person is strangled by ligature, ligature strangulation, you will see a straight across marking on the neck, typically furrowed, where the ligature, be it a rope, a stocking, furrows into the skin. When an individual takes their own life. You will see a smiley mark from earth down toward the Adam's apple and to the other ear because of the positioning of the rope, if it is a rope. So the marking on your brother's neck, the first time I saw it, from having handled so many homicides, I did not believe it could be anything other than homicide.

Mark Epstein (14:44)

Yes, well, you're correct about the mark on his neck, but there's other injuries to his body and other bruises that cannot have been self inflicted. And this was either overlooked or ignored by, by Dr. Sampson, who was the chief medical examiner who said that Jeffrey took himself out. And let me be really clear, she never saw Jeffrey's body. She wasn't in the office that day. The two pathologists that did the autopsy both came out saying this looks like a homicide. They wouldn't call it a suicide. And the report coming out goes much deeper into the marks and bruises on Jeffrey's body. The other reason people are calling this saying that he took himself out, you know, Barbara Sampson made that statement within, you know, days after Jeffrey died. And Bill Barr, the Attorney General, came out and publicly stated that he personally watched the videotape from the camera that was outside of the tier, and he saw that nobody went in or out of the tier, and that convinced him it was a suicide. Those are the two reasons people think this was a suicide. Barbara Sampson's statement and Bill Barr statement. Now, if you look at Bill Barr's statement, first of all, with the recent release of the videotape, you could see that, number one, you cannot see the door to the tier that he was referring to. And it's been shown many times that you people could get to that door and leave from that door without being caught by that camera. So just what the was he talking about? We also now seen in the middle of the night that orange person going up the stairs, you know, because you can only see the left side of the staircase. So obviously somebody went up the stairs. So again, what the was Bill Barr talking about when he said nobody went in around, somebody went up there? Also, Bill Barr completely ignored the possibility that somebody already on the tier, in another cell could have gotten to Jeffrey, done something, going back into his cell without having to go and come from the tier. A few months after the death, I was told by a source that cell doors were left unlocked that night. I don't know how many, I don't know whose, but supposedly this information came from a lawyer of one of the other inmates on the tier. So I mean, it makes perfect sense when you Put it all together, that somebody already on the tier could have done this. Also, to think that somebody could get to that cell door, the tier door, go in the tier, you know, commit a crime and leave completely undetected is kind of asinine. So Bill Barr's entire conclusion is based on bull. And it wouldn't hold up in a court of law and it wouldn't hold up in a kindergarten class.

Nancy Grace (17:25)

So you believe, Mark, that this so called handwritten note now unsealed by a federal judge is really a fake intended to corroborate the official ruling your brother took his life while waiting for a trial. You believe the note is a fake?

Mark Epstein (17:46)

Yes, I believe that the government knows, just like you now know, that this report is coming out that will prove that Jeffrey did not take his own life, to prove it conclusively, that Jeffrey could not have taken his own life, as they say. So I believe this is their attempt now to sow doubt about this report because this is going to be very damning when this report comes out. So now they're trying to put doubt in people's minds. It's like a propaganda thing. Yeah. I don't believe the note is real because again, since there was no prior attempt in July on Jeffrey's part to take his own life, why would he have written such a note? It doesn't make sense to me or to anybody else who looks at it that way.

Nancy Grace (18:27)

Another issue in my mind, Mark Epstein, is timing. The so called Dirt Nap note remained buried, buried in court documents for years. Now, don't you think if this was legitimate, we would have heard about it at the time your brother was killed. We would have heard, hey, he wrote a note. But no, we didn't. We're only hearing about it now. Does nobody have a problem with the timing, Mark?

Mark Epstein (19:00)

Yes, it should be causeless. Reporters coming out and they are aware of it. It's like if I say I found a note that you wrote saying you were going to take yourself out. It makes no sense. You haven't tried to take yourself out as far as anybody knows. So why would there be a note from you saying you're going to take yourself out? Jeffrey didn't try to take himself out, hence why would he write a note of that kind?

Nancy Grace (19:21)

Another issue. Mark Epstein is the former police officer behind bars on a serious felony. Tartaglioni. We're listening to him. He says that your brother wrote the note long before and put it in a book. Why would I believe anything he said?

Mark Epstein (19:43)

I didn't even know he was a reader. So it doesn't make. None of this makes sense.

Nancy Grace (19:48)

He also says that he Epstein left the note in a book weeks and weeks before he was killed. That defies every other life attempt I have ever seen. Weeks and weeks and weeks before you die, you leave a note hidden in a book and then nobody finds it until years later.

Mark Epstein (20:12)

Nancy, after the event in July, Jeffrey was no longer cellmate with that guy, you know, so they were not in the same cell together after the July event. So, you know, why would Jeffrey write that note and leave it in a book with the Taglioni?

Nancy Grace (20:26)

Well, here's another issue, Mark, and I've been going through all of the credibility issues. Apparently the so called note changed hands over and over and over. It went between many, many people before this guy, this convicted felon. Tartaglione talks about it in a podcast. Really? Your brother is said to testify against some of the most powerful people and some of the wealthiest people in the world. And we find out about this death note on a podcast from a convicted felon. I'm not buying it.

Mark Epstein (21:05)

Neither am I. And once this report comes out and suicide is taken off the table, and now we know Jeffrey was killed, you have to, you know, and the DOJ has been covering this up and then coming up with nonsense. You have to wonder, you know, out of, like I said, people think there's a whole bunch of people that might have wanted Jeffrey dead. I really don't think that list is that big. Jeffrey was a pretty well liked guy, you know, then you have to pare that list down to who potentially would have the ability to orchestrate this whole murder and have the DOJ cover it up. You have to. You have to look at that. Who would be able to pull this off if you were doing a trip?

Nancy Grace (21:44)

One other thing I noticed.

Mark Epstein (21:48)

Let me point out something.

Nancy Grace (21:49)

Sure, go ahead, please.

Mark Epstein (21:51)

Dr. Kristen Roman, who was the pathologist, who actually did the autopsy. It was her autopsy to do. Dr. Biden was there with her. She was deposed afterwards. And she said in her deposition that one, she was told not to take DNA evidence and she was also prohibited from going to the crime scene, you know, the jail, both steps. Highly unusual in a case like that where the medical examiner's office is supposed to determine the cause of death, she would tell. Now, if this was a real investigation, if they were really looking. Okay, when she said she was told not to take DNA evidence, the next question should have been, who told you not to take DNA evidence? But they didn't ask those questions because they Want to brush this whole thing under the carpet as Jeffrey's, you know, taking himself out instead of being investigated as the murder that it was.

Nancy Grace (22:43)

Guys, for those of you just joining with us tonight, Mark Epstein. This is Jeffrey Epstein's brother. And we are supposed to believe that, that within days of testifying against some of the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world, Epstein takes a dirt nap. And then the death note appears. After having been in files, it disappears for years and now rears its ugly head. Another issue I have regarding credibility, Mark Epstein, is that many, many of your brother's emails have been released to the public. And I noticed that this note mimics some of the other emails, specifically the tagline that says, what you want me to do, bust out crying? That is straight from the Little Rascals. And he had used phraseology similar to that in other publicly released emails. What do you make of that, Mark?

Mark Epstein (23:43)

Well, I think if they wanted to make note and make it look like Jeffrey wrote it, they would try to use phrases that he's used before to make it sound like he did it. You know, if he's going to write a, he's going to write a note like this supposedly written by Jeffrey Epstein, you know, you're not going to write it in Spanish or Italian or German. You know, he's an English speaker and you would use, try to use the language that he would use and the phrases he would use to make it sound authentic. If they wrote it and it read like it was written in King's English, you would know that Jeffrey Epstein did not write that. So they made it look, if it was forged, they made it try to make it look like it was coming from him. There's no surprise there. But like I said, I got a report showing that the handwriting on the note didn't match up to three other pieces of evidence of his that we know is his handwriting. And again, why would he write such a note, why would he write such a note if there was no prior attempt to take himself out? That, to me, that doesn't make any sense. Also, you know, only about 18% or so of suicide victims who take themselves out write notes. It's not common.

Nancy Grace (24:50)

Well, I have to tell you this, Mark Epstein, I've worked with handwriting comparison experts at the crime lab. I've had many, many cases dealing with forgeries. And I know this. I know it's actually very easy if you have a practiced forger to create a note like this, a short note using phraseology that we know your brother to have used in the past. It's just not that hard. Mark Epstein, what is the single most convincing fact that your brother was murdered and this note is not authentic?

Mark Epstein (25:29)

Well, the fact that the bruises on his body, including the ligature mark on his neck, as you pointed out, does not correspond with someone taking themselves out. And the report that's coming out will prove that, will conclusively prove that the report still shows that he could not have taken himself out the way they say or any other way. It had to be done by somebody else.

Nancy Grace (26:02)

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Mark Epstein (29:11)

I'm Kiana and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything.

Joe Scott Morgan (29:28)

Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it

Mark Epstein (29:32)

to me because it's so easy to use.

Chelsea Handler (29:34)

It's like, I can't stop.

Mark Epstein (29:35)

I'm addicted.

Nancy Grace (29:37)

Start your free trial@shopify.com Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us now, an all star panel to make sense of what Mark Epstein and others are saying. First, straight out to renowned death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. He is professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is the star of a hit podcast Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. But for our purposes tonight, he has investigated over 10,000 death scenes of all sorts, be they death at your own hands, accident, natural causes, unexplained, or homicide. Those are the five choices. Joe, Scott Morgan explained to me why you insist Jeffrey Epstein was murdered.

Joe Scott Morgan (30:42)

Two areas to look at, you have to look externally. Well, let's talk about externally. They're talking about ligature marks on his neck. All right? And when you see these marks, and I've seen every possible angle of these things out there, you have got two overlying marks and they run. One particularly runs parallel to the shoulders. What do I mean by that? The mark is here. It goes straight back. If someone were to take their own life, it would pitch up. That's called tinting feature. And there is another mark that runs slightly upward at an angle. But it is not sufficient to be defined as tinting feature, which you see with self inflicted ligatures. Now you go under the skin. Okay, you go under the skin. And this is critical, Nancy. There are two separate fractures in the cartilage in the neck right here. All right, One's on this side, one's on the other side. And then, then you have, you know, the little bone that we always talk about. The only non articulating bone in the whole human body, the hyoid, shaped like a horseshoe. Greater left horn is fractured. That's way, way, way, way, way up in the neck. You know, when we see this, Nancy, we see it with manual strangulation. So you can go on and on, you can prattle on and on and say, well, yeah, this is consistent with him having ended himself. However, you'll never convince me. You know who else you're not going to convince? My friend Dr. Michael Baden. And there are a lot of other people out there you're never going to convince either. There were fractures of the left, the right thyroid cartilage and the left hyoid bone. I have never seen three fractures like this in a suicidal hanging. Sometimes there's a fracture of the higher bone or a fracture of the thyroid cartilage going over over a thousand jail hangings, suicides in the New York City state prisons over the past 40, 50 years. No one had three fractures.

Nancy Grace (33:02)

So, Scott, can you address the bruises on his body that his brother Mark Epstein discussed? Epstein. Mark Epstein insists the bruises could not have been self inflicted. And I agree.

Joe Scott Morgan (33:15)

Yeah, how do you even explain that? I'm glad that Mark brought that up. You know, you've got these, these areas that have been impacted and we talk about bruises, right? Nancy, fancy $10 word contusion. That means you have to have direct contact, you have to have a direct blow to that area. We've all bumped into furniture, we've bumped into the side of a wall, we've fallen down. And listen, if what they're saying here, if what they're saying is this was actually generated as a result of being in this position, you can't explain that. And also it almost looks as though that it's very, there's a very focal area, it's not widespread and diffuse, it's kind of a concentrated area. So to me that implies, that implies that there was a direct impact. I don't know if it was generated by hand or I have no idea. But it just does not marry up with the story that they're trying to sell everybody on, on this being a self inflicted event.

Nancy Grace (34:21)

Before we go to our handwriting expert, Bart Baggott, straight up to Lynn Shaw, founder director of Lynn's warriors, dedicated to eradicate trafficking of women and girls. Lynn, did you hear what Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein, said? A ruling that Epstein died at his own hand, not by homicide. Completely shut down the investigation into what happened to all those teen girls and even younger girls as young as 12. It shut it all down. How convenient.

Chelsea Handler (35:05)

First of all, does the DOJ think the American public is this stupid? We are exhausted from these lies that have been told over and over again. We have medical evidence. We. We have the brother of Jeffrey Epstein talking about this. We have, you know, our Epstein files Transparency act in Washington. Nothing Nancy ever came really, of that. Okay. We have exhausted over 1,000 women, some of them girls, young teens at the time, who have come forward. If there's 1,000, you can bet there's at least 2,000. And no one I know working across the United States on any of this. With victims, right? With survivors of all sex trafficking. Nobody believes the Epstein story, that he would harm himself, that this is what he did. No, no, no. It is so complicit. The only one we're hearing about is Ghislaine Maxwell being in this Club Fed. Nobody else, top down, is being held responsible. And what a slap in the face now that we have all of this right now coming forward. Shut down. Nobody's believing this. So what's our question? What. What do we want to do? We're still chipping away trying to get answers. Will we ever get them? I fear not. Because right now we have too many exhausted survivors, victims overall, in the entire sex trafficking movement who just want to actually move forward from this. They've had enough. And they know they're being lied to day after day.

Nancy Grace (36:31)

Joining us now, in addition to Lynn Shaw and Jo Scott Morgan, Dr. Bethany Marshall. She is a renowned psychoanalyst. She is now featured on Peacock and Bravo. She's the author of Deal Breaker, and she is star of a new podcast, on the couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com Dr. Bethany, I have a question. And of course, you're the psychoanalyst. I'm just a JD but why would Epstein put a Death note squirreled away, hidden away, where nobody but a crooked cop, Tarteglioni, who has a violent felony history. He's the only one that knows about it. Why wouldn't he put it near him? So it will be known what happened. I just find this really difficult to believe. I've never seen a Death Note of that nature, tucked away and hidden.

Dr. Bethany Marshall (37:35)

You know what? Epstein didn't hide anything. Right. Epstein created a monster factory that drew.

Nancy Grace (37:42)

Yeah, look at his room, for Pete's sake.

Chelsea Handler (37:45)

Right?

Dr. Bethany Marshall (37:46)

A monster factory that drew in academics, politicians, clergy, Wall street executives. His monster factory drew in everybody. And he liked being at the center of things. So somebody who wants to be at the center of things is not going to write a note that's going to be hidden away.

Chelsea Handler (38:10)

Right.

Dr. Bethany Marshall (38:11)

They are just not going to do it. And also, Nancy, people who harm themselves usually have two traits, hopelessness and impulsivity. Epstein was not impulsive. He was a planner. He bought the biggest mansion in Manhattan so he could use it as a trading principle with everybody around him, like, come to my Manhattan mansion. You know, we're going to have this. These party. They're going to be debauched. And because of that, he. He wouldn't like. I just don't see him not planning ahead. And in terms of hopelessness, Nancy, he was about to face trial, and he got out of every consequence in his life. So the fact that he was facing trial tells me that he probably thought he was going to get out of all the sex trafficking charges. So why would he unalive himself before his greatest victory or glory when he thought he would get out of everything,

Nancy Grace (39:22)

which he had done before? Remember Lynn Shaw, the debacle in Palm beach, where he got a slap on the wrist and house arrest for molestation, for repeat molestation, and he had a limo driver pick him up at the jail every day, take him wherever he wanted to all day long, as long as he checked back in for the night. Yes.

Chelsea Handler (39:48)

Yeah, we remember that. We remember that, Nancy. We remember that. And that is why this chain of events, like, leading up to right now, okay, we've been in front of Congress, survivors and victims. We've been all over the country, you know, holding rallies about, you know, Epstein. We have been talking about Ghislaine Maxwell. We have had media. We have done it all. And yet still, Dr. Bethany is right. And that is what victims are thinking right now. They're like somebody of power and wealth. And this is overall, even besides Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, they have the power, they have the wealth. They have so many people in high positions on their sides and complicit with them in these crimes. They get away with everything. And I believe this is what, you know, right now with the DOJ shutting things down repeatedly over and over and over again. Right. They want to exhaust anybody who's got any information, any Proof, any, anything. So everybody just scatters and goes away. And that is our biggest fear right now at the warriors because that is what is happening. These women, some of them, again, girls at the time, right, minors, they are exhausted. They want to get on with their lives. They've got families themselves, a lot of them. And again, they will say to me, they're getting away with it. They've gotten away with it. Look at how we're being treated still, still from top down in Washington, all throughout the communities in the United States. We're never going to win. So let's just stop it. And that is our greatest fear because we have to chip away and keep talking about this and bringing up medical evidence and bringing up proof. The doj. I'm going to say it again. I fear I've said it from the beginning, for years now. We are never really going to see complete files and really hold those accountable who participated in this crime spree.

Nancy Grace (41:30)

Joining us now, a renowned forensic handwriting expert. He is the founder of Handwriting Experts, Inc. He is the host of the Bart show podcast. And you can find him@bart bagot.com Mr. Bag, thank you for being with us. Contrary to what you have heard so far, you have a different opinion on the death note. Explain.

Bart Baggett (41:54)

I do. Unfortunately, we don't have a huge opening public file of Jeffrey Epstein's real handwriting, but what we do have is two notes. And my conclusion on those two notes that we found in the jail cell is they were written by the same person. And so that is still very useful information because it seems like these notes arrived at different times, which infuses the story. The other part is, is it Jeffrey's handwriting? I think that's the question we should dig into because we don't have and they haven't released lots of his natural handwriting. That's the confusing part of this story.

Nancy Grace (42:31)

So on what do you base your analysis? That the note is legit.

Bart Baggett (42:38)

So I base my analysis when we compare the two notes from the jail cell is it's natural, it's fluid. The letters are similar. The capital A is very unique. The lower S's, all the letter forms are similar. And Nancy, I want to push back on you a little bit of what you said earlier. You said it was incredibly easy to create a forged note. And that has not been my experience when you have an entire page of blank paper. My experience has been even with our school, students struggle to forge anything more than a signature because it has to be fast, has to be fluid, has to have no pen lifts have to start and stop and it's fast. And these notes are quickly and naturally written. So that makes me think that these notes were written by the same person. But the jury's still out on whether or not it was Mr. Epstein.

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Nancy Grace (45:38)

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Nancy Grace (45:44)

Come join our sweat sesh on TikTok crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys. Joining us is a preeminent handwriting expert, Bart Baggett. You said fast, but this note did not appear for years. You mentioned it was hard for your students to pull off a fake note, but what if it was an expert like yourself that had months and months, maybe even years to write the note,

Bart Baggett (46:23)

that's a whole different equation. You talk about counterfeit paintings, counterfeit money, counterfeit notes. If you have time and you have expertise and you have access to his writing, you could practice for years. I think the only cases that have been really, really hard in the 30 years is when a wife forges the husband's name because they've been working together for 30 years. So she's got, like, years of practice. Those cases are a little harder. And I think what's interesting is not only is the handwriting so similar, such as the letter forms, the a. The quickness, they've obviously created such a fast thing. The words are the same. They've got phrases that come directly from email. So you have to ask yourself that question, who had access to understand these phrasings and words and explanation marks? The only way to craft a note this good to get past my professional eyes is to have access to all those files and then submit it into evidence at the appropriate time. Are you insinuating this note was written by the.

Nancy Grace (47:24)

Who would have had those files? Dave Mack joining us, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Who would have had the files?

Mark Epstein (47:32)

Nancy, the files have been handled in particular here by Nick Tartaglioni and his defense team as they're trying to fight his conviction on the murder charges that he is sitting with. He's the guy who said he found the note in his little book after everything went down.

Bart Baggett (47:55)

So all of this is found by

Mark Epstein (47:57)

the same guy, the only one who benefits by it being written by Epstein, Bart Baggett.

Nancy Grace (48:02)

Let me understand. After your review, you believe the notes are genuine, but you have a concern?

Bart Baggett (48:10)

Yes. So what I stated and what I think all forensic experts would say is these two notes found in the jail cell were written by the same person. However, even if that person was Jeffrey, which the evidence points to it, that doesn't mean he unalived himself. I think people are making the assumptions that if he wrote this note, then that narrative's true. I don't buy that.

Nancy Grace (48:34)

Why?

Bart Baggett (48:35)

Because the note itself is not typically what we would think of as a one of those notes. There's no depression. There's no sadness. There's nothing about the typical notes that I've seen when someone does that. I don't think psychologically he was ready to go.

Nancy Grace (48:52)

Wow, okay, Dr. Bethany, what about it?

Dr. Bethany Marshall (48:54)

There was no hopelessness. People who unalive themselves feel they have no future. He had a rich future. He had money. He had an island. He had the most expensive home in Manhattan, Nancy. And he traded these commodities for Everything he wanted with everybody around him. So he had so many attorneys who were going to help him that he thought he would get the get out of jail free card. So the hopelessness is not what, you know, hopelessness accompanies unaliving oneself. And he didn't have it.

Nancy Grace (49:36)

Well, there's somebody else that benefits from it being written by Epstein, Lynn Shaw, everyone that wants to shut down the investigation. Every single one of those very wealthy, very powerful connections that visited Lolita Island.

Chelsea Handler (49:53)

Absolutely incredible. Look what we're talking about, this Etch A Sketch note. Has anybody heard of AI because the technology with AI you can recreate anything even better than original handwriting. So I'm saying, of course they're going to put out with similar words, phrases, handwriting, because the technology is there to create this. So everybody's got to wake up. The timing of all of this Tartaglioni, whatever he did and all of his stuff, I mean, facing, you know, four murder charges. How convenient. How convenient is the timing when we know there is a report coming out with more damning evidence again. So I wish everybody would wake up and say it is so easy these days to forge anything because you have the technology with AI. So let's all look at the other facts we've been talking about, the medical, you know, the victims, all of it. Because I don't believe Jeffrey Epstein and everybody I work with, not one person believes Jeffrey Epstein wrote this note and it came from this criminal. What great timing. The doj, in my opinion, continues to try to shut everything down, but they're at a point right now they can't because we keep talking about it, we keep chipping away. And the victims and survivors are not really going to let the strong ones let this story go away. It remains to be seen. I say stay tuned. A lot's coming down the pike in the next few weeks.

Nancy Grace (51:13)

With us, Mark Epstein. This is Jeffrey Epstein's brother. Who do you believe would have had access to Jeffrey's handwriting? To Jeffrey Epstein's handwriting?

Mark Epstein (51:24)

He might. He could have written, hypothetically, he could have written that note maybe in anticipation that maybe he'd want to take himself out. I mean, that's a possibility in the world of possibilities, but it doesn't matter. Like the pathologist you have there, he said the marks on Jeffrey's body do not match a self inflicted hanging. The way they're trying to push this

Joe Scott Morgan (51:44)

off, there were fractures of the left, the right thyroid cartilage and the left hyoid bone. I have never seen three fractures like this in a Suicidal hanging. Sometimes there's a fracture of the higher bone or a fracture of the thyroid cartilage going over. Over a thousand jail hangings, suicides in the New York City state prisons over the past 40, 50 years. No one had three fractures.

Nancy Grace (52:17)

Joe Scott Morgan, what do you make of that? That's Dr. Michael Baden speaking.

Mark Epstein (52:23)

Okay.

Joe Scott Morgan (52:24)

This is what I'm thinking, and I can't get inside Michael's mind, however, for every one of those events that you're talking about. Let me rephrase that. For every single insult that he's referring to, that could possibly be separate individual events, okay? Like. And the one thing that has always troubled me is the fact that when you see the external ligature marks on the neck, okay. That those markings that are there have been readjusted, okay. Almost like they're trying to replace. Replace this thing. And again, come back with pressure. Okay. Over and over again. And also, I think that there is direct pressure being applied with a hand. This is a frenzied event. Nancy, again, I draw your attention back to the contusion that's at the base of the neck on the post on the posterior neck, or the. The shoulder, where the neck essentially joins. Joins the shoulder right there. That's a frenzied event. You've got an individual that is probably struggling and fighting for their life. And this thing is a very, very frenzy. They're having to readjust because they want to take him out. That's why none of this makes sense. Nancy, in all of the years. In all of the years that I have worked as a death investigator, okay, I've had so many hangings, all right? And I have never seen this kind of readjustment that takes place in these events. It's generally, boom, a singular event. The individual goes out. This thing has been adjusted. It has been. I don't know, manipulated is necessarily the term. But I think that there was a frenzied attack in this event because they were trying to figure out exactly how they were going to put him down and do it quickly. And in that, it's not very smooth. But the end result, you know, of course, is Mr. Epstein is no longer with us.

Mark Epstein (54:29)

What I wanted to add is another point in part in Bill Barr's recent congressional testimony. Under oath, he was questioned about Dr. Barton's opinion, and he said under oath that Dr. Baden came after the fact, that that's what he said. Now, just how stupid is that? Because we all know Dr. Bond was there for the entire autopsy. It was Dr. Sampson who called it a suicide. She came after the fact. I want to make that clear, that Bill Barr actually persisted himself by saying that because he had to know Biden was there for the entire autopsy. But he said Biden came after the fact. You can read the transcript.

Nancy Grace (55:05)

If you know or think you know anything regarding the death of State's Jeffrey Epstein, dial 800-225-5324. Repeat, 800-225-5324. We remember an American hero, Trooper Kevin Traynor, Massachusetts State Police. Just 30, killed in the line of duty after three years on the force, leaving behind a devastated fiance, Jessica. American hero, Trooper Kevin Trainor, Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.