EPSTEIN MURDERED, PROOF?

Summary

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: "EPSTEIN MURDERED, PROOF?"

Original Air Date: March 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this bombshell episode, Nancy Grace delves into the suspicious circumstances surrounding Jeffrey Epstein's death. She asks the pointed question: was the notorious financier murdered, and is there actual proof? Joined by a panel of experts as well as Epstein’s brother, Mark Epstein, the discussion focuses on recently released surveillance footage, forensic autopsy results, missing evidence, suspicious guard behavior, and alleged cover-ups. The conversation casts serious doubt on the official narrative of suicide and probes potential conspiracy and incompetence at federal prison facilities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Challenging the Suicide Narrative

(03:10 - 09:31)

• Nancy Grace kicks off by introducing the episode’s central theme: the controversy over Jeffrey Epstein’s death.
• Mark Epstein (Jeffrey’s brother) strongly disputes the suicide ruling, citing:
  • Both pathologists present at the initial autopsy refused to call it a suicide.
  • The official death certificate initially reported "pending further study," but no meaningful investigation followed.
  • Former Attorney General Bill Barr’s claim that video proved no one entered or left Epstein’s cell block is debunked—video evidence shows otherwise.
  • Cover-up is alleged due to persistent inconsistencies and Bill Barr’s focus solely on the "in/out" narrative while ignoring who was already there.

“That doesn’t seem to be a question anymore. It was not a suicide.”
—Mark Epstein, (05:01)

“Bill Barr is complicit in this cover up...he's either part of a cover up or he's the stupidest guy on the planet.”
—Mark Epstein, (07:58)

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2. Video Evidence: The ‘Orange Blur’

(09:31 - 13:42)

• Nancy Grace: FBI video analysis caught an "orange blur"—an inmate or possible guard dressed in orange— ascending the steps to Epstein’s cell tier shortly before his death. This contradicts official statements that no one approached Epstein’s area.
• Mark Epstein: The prison layout and camera blind spots make it easy for individuals to move unseen. Staff explanations (such as a guard delivering linen) do not hold up, as jailers do not wear orange.

“You see someone in orange...going up those steps. It is absolutely someone going up the steps. When the feds told us that didn’t happen, it did happen, Mark.”
—Nancy Grace, (10:58)

• Video timing and appearance (full body figure in orange) raise more questions about who accessed the tier.

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3. Suspicious Guard Behavior & Missing Evidence

(13:42 - 19:09)

• Mark Epstein notes the two guards charged for falsifying records (Tover Noel and Michael Thomas) and another unnamed guard who has not faced scrutiny.
• Critical evidence lost or missing:
  • FBI hard drive swap erased prison surveillance history despite technician warnings.
  • Handheld video footage (from standard protocol during a prison death) is missing.
  • 911 call from the prison never released for review.
• Financial anomalies: Tova Noel had 12 cash deposits—including a flagged $5,000—in her account, motive/purpose unexplained.

“Everything’s gone. Everything’s, you know, hidden, disappeared…We were never able to get the 911 call that was made from the prison when they found Jeff’s body.”
—Mark Epstein, (15:02)

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4. Irregularities in Protocol & Forensic Findings

(19:09 - 21:47)

• Dr. Roman (autopsy pathologist) stated in deposition she was barred from collecting DNA and forbidden to visit the scene—highly unusual for a case of this profile.
• Evidence grossly compromised: Epstein’s body moved, crime scene destroyed before autopsy.
• Medical signs: Deep groove in Epstein’s neck implies he was dead for hours before being "discovered"—contradicting feigned rescue attempts by guards.
• Oddities like Epstein’s body being dressed in a hospital gown post-mortem instead of standard protocol.

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5. Surrounding Cell and Tier Anomalies

(21:09 - 21:55)

• Guards seen loitering near Epstein’s cell instead of performing rounds; official headcount changed from 73 to 72 inmates overnight with no documented transfer—raising the question "Who’s the missing prisoner?"

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6. Medical Evidence: Autopsy and Cause of Death

(45:44 - 51:00)

• Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner):
  • Delayed ruling indicates medical uncertainty; hanging deaths present with V-shaped marks, not horizontal grooves as seen on Epstein.
  • Multiple fractures (hyoid, thyroid cartilage) are rare for hangings but common in ligature strangulation (homicide).
  • Photographs of the ligature mark are inconsistent with a soft cloth "noose"; mark is deeper and straighter than expected.
  • Bruises on wrists may indicate Epstein was restrained.

“A hanging...creates a V shaped structure on the neck...You’re not seeing that in the pictures... it’s almost as if someone is pulling it from behind, crushing his neck... horizontal ligature impression... It all doesn’t fit with a suspension type hanging.”
—Dr. Kendall Crowns, (45:44)

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7. Prison Policy Contradictions & Cell Condition

(31:33 - 39:23)

• Dr. Duane Hendricks (ex-warden):
  • Jail staff never wear orange (that’s strict policy), so the orange figure on footage likely cannot be a staff member.
  • The mess inside Epstein’s cell (excess linens, cords, medication left out) is sharply against protocol; such conditions represent serious security and suicide risk—forbidden in high-security settings.
  • Presence of extra bedsheets and unclear timing of their arrival suggest possible staging or tampering.

“There is no way in H E double L that that would be a staff member dressed as an inmate.”
—Dr. Duane Hendricks, (32:46)

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8. Missing Noose and Linens

(39:23 - 41:15)

• No one can account for the supposed noose; medical staff did not see it on the body, and its later "presentation" for autopsy was questionable.
• Contradictory accounts from prison staff regarding how or if a noose was removed.

“Somebody took the noose off of his neck. Where is it?... That’s a huge one. Where is it?”
—Susan Hendricks, (40:27)

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9. Guard Activity and Financial Motive

(51:21 - 52:52)

• Multiple unexplained cash payments to Tova Noel—suggesting possible bribery or incentive for neglect or complicity.
• Odd internet searches performed on Noel’s work computer moments before and after Epstein’s death further raise suspicions.

“12 cash deposits between April 2018 and July 30, 2019...one of the last payments was for $5,000 and it was flagged by the FBI.”
—Susan Hendricks, (51:21)

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10. Psychological & Behavioral Profile

(52:52 - 55:06)

• Dr. Bethany Marshall (psychoanalyst):
  • Points out Epstein displayed no sign of psychological shame and was likely planning for bail; makes suicide less likely.
  • The chaos in his cell does not fit his personality or typical facility standards.
  • Speculates disorder and medication presence may be staged to confuse or mislead.

“You cannot tell me that Jeffrey Epstein would have allowed his own cell to look like that. Everything would have been neatly folded, the bed would have been made.”
—Dr. Bethany Marshall, (54:24)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mark Epstein:

  “When the feds told us that didn’t happen, it did happen.” (10:58)
  “If this was truly a suicide, it would be easy. There’d be no reason for all this lying and obscuration.” (13:42)

• Nancy Grace:

  “I don’t know whether to believe him or my two lion eyes because I know what I’m seeing.” (12:03)

  "You don't say something like that under oath. What that is, is a security risk. That is a security and a flight risk. I mean, get down on it, man." (38:24)

• Dr. Kendall Crowns:

  “It all doesn’t fit with a suspension type hanging. It kind of fits with someone pulling it from behind.” (45:44)

• Dr. Duane Hendricks:

  “There is no way in H E double L that that would be a staff member dressed as an inmate.” (32:46)

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Important Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 03:10 – Nancy introduces the panel and the ‘mysterious orange blur’ footage.
• 05:01 – 09:31 – Mark Epstein details forensic and investigative irregularities.
• 10:58 – Nancy challenges official claims with video evidence.
• 13:42 – Mark Epstein discusses missing and withheld evidence.
• 16:10 – Nancy and Mark review cash deposits and suspicious Google searches.
• 19:09 – 21:09 – Deposition from pathologist and timeline of death.
• 31:33 – 33:35 – Policy on staff clothing and the impossibility of a guard dressed in orange.
• 39:23 – 41:15 – Missing noose and prison cell irregularities.
• 45:44 – 51:00 – Dr. Crowns breaks down forensic inconsistencies with the suicide findings.
• 51:21 – 52:52 – Discussion of the cash motive and banking records.
• 54:24 – Dr. Bethany Marshall on Epstein's psychological profile.
• 55:36 – Dave Mack describes further cell evidence that contradicts protocol.

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Conclusion

This episode advances a persuasive case that Jeffrey Epstein’s death was not the clear-cut suicide the official reports describe. With testimony from his brother, medical and prison experts, and investigative reporters, Nancy Grace exposes a web of suspicious activity: missing evidence, tampered crime scene, contradictory witness accounts, unexplained financial transactions, and forensic inconsistencies. The episode closes with a call for listeners’ tips, suggesting the final answers remain clouded in secrecy.

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Tone: Direct, skeptical, and relentless in seeking the truth, echoing the driven style of Nancy Grace.

For further details and the full investigative report, contact Crime Stories with Nancy Grace or the FBI tipline as mentioned at the episode close.

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Nancy Grace]

CRIME STORIES with Nancy Grace. Jeffrey Epstein murdered. Is there proof? Tonight, a mysterious flash of orange an inmate caught on camera going up the stairs to Jeffrey Epstein's chair just before he's found dead. This as damning Google searches emerge on the jailhouse guards work computer about Epstein just before his body is found. That along with mysterious cash deposits, big cash deposits, the Last one being $5,000 deposited into the jailer's bank account, bags of shredded documents. All this as new video evidence emerges. I'm Nancy Grace. This is CRIME stories. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. With us, the single person left in the world most likely to want the truth about what happened to Jeffrey Epstein, his blood relative, his own brother, is joining us. Mark Epstein, thank you for being with us.

[Mark Epstein]

My pleasure.

[Nancy Grace]

Mark, you have not sat back and digested what was being spoon fed to you by the feds or the media. I'd like to hear your analysis before I begin peppering you with questions as to whether your brother, Jeffrey Epstein, committed suicide.

[Mark Epstein]

Well, that doesn't seem to be a question anymore. It was not a suicide. If you go back in time when Jeffrey was first autopsied the day after they found his body, the initial death certificate said under cause of death, pending further study, they wouldn't call it a suicide or a homicide at that point in time. But both of the pathologists that were there at the autopsy, Dr. Kristen Roman, who was a city pathologist whose autopsy it was, and Michael Barden, who was there on my behalf, they came out of the autopsy saying that they couldn't call it a suicide because it looked too much like a homicide. That's what they said. I was there. They were talking to me. That doesn't appear in the government report. Okay. It said pending further study. When I've spoken to a number of pathologists, they've always told me that if a death certificate says pending further study, you don't get an answer, usually for weeks or so because something's being investigated, some study being done that wasn't done here. They never investigated Jeffrey's death as anything other than a suicide, as they called it. Because, you know, the Attorney Bill Barr, the Attorney General at the time, came out and said that he personally watched the videotape from outside of the tier. Because we know the camera in the tier was not working or was not recording. That story has changed. He personally saw the videotape and he saw that nobody went in or out of the tier. And that convinced him it was a suicide. And when I heard that, I realized this is a cover up of some kind. Because number one, I thought, why is the Attorney General personally watching the videotape? That doesn't seem realistic. And also, he completely ignored the possibility that if Jeffrey was killed, he could have been killed by somebody that was already on the tier. There were about 12 or so other inmates on the tier that would not have to go and come. Also, when Bill Barr made that statement, it leads you to believe that you could see the door to the tier from that camera outside of the tier. So if he saw the door, nobody went in or out. He could say nobody went in or out. But with the release of the videotapes, you know, last year, you see, number one, you cannot see the door to the tier. And you. Someone could go to that door and leave by staying on the right hand side of the staircase that leads up to the tier. And we know that there was some orange blur, as they're calling it, either an inmate wearing orange, or guards carrying sheets up the stairs which go to that tier. So. So Bill Barr's statement that nobody went in or out of the tier is based on nothing. And the fact that he ignored that somebody on the tier could have done harm to somebody, you know, makes his conclusion just ridiculous. And when I heard that, I said, he's either part of a cover up or he's the stupidest guy on the planet. Bill Barr is complicit in this cover up. In his recent congressional testimony, okay, when he was asked about Dr. Barton's comment that, you know, he thought it was more of a homicide, Bill Barr said under oath, he said Dr. Barton came after the fact that that's what he said. I laughed when I heard that because everyone knows Barnum was there for the entire autopsy. Dr. Sampson, who was the chief medical examiner of New York at the time, who called it a suicide. A few days later, she came after the fact, she called it a suicide. And she never saw the body. She was not there the Two pathologists that did the autopsy said it looked more like a homicide. Barbara Sampson, who didn't see the body, said it was a suicide. And there's a lot of information on the autopsy that they have ignored or tried to downplay. Now, recently there's been two different teams of pathologists who have reviewed the autopsy results. And they're not doing this on my behalf. I'm not paying them. They contacted me. I gave them all the information we had about the autopsy or the photographs or the notes and everything. And they've concluded that this couldn't have been a suicide. And they're coming out with reports that are being peer reviewed. I'd like to give you more information now, but I'm holding off until the peer review is done and they'll release their reports and you'll see that this was not a suicide.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us is Jeffrey Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein. I believe the single most motivated person in the world to find out the truth regarding what happened to Jeffrey Epstein. When he first started talking, he mentioned an orange flash video we're showing you right now. There. Guys, I just saw it. Look carefully where we're showing you the highlighted circle. There is someone dressed in orange going up the steps to Epstein's tear. Now, this isn't something Mark Epstein made up or I made up. This is a video analysis included in the Epstein files. An FBI agent noticed the flash of orange going up the stairs and stated, could possibly be an inmate escorted up to that tier. Okay, now that threw everyone for a loop because as you just heard, Mark Epstein state officials said no one went up or down the tier in the critical hours surrounding the critical time where Epstein was killed. But yet there it is, someone going up the steps to his tier. So I guess Mark Epstein, you have observed that. And it's more than a flash. Let's see it again. A flash suggests maybe a camera flash or something quick. No, you see someone in orange, which is not a warden. They don't wear orange. The inmates wear orange going up those steps. It's not a flash. It is absolutely someone going up the steps. When the feds told us that didn't happen, it did happen, Mark.

[Mark Epstein]

Now, also let me add in, we see that one, somebody else could have gone up or down the stairs just by staying to the right side of the staircase and they wouldn't be captured on that camera at all. The fact that we see that orange is because somebody was on the far left hand side of that staircase. But we don't know possibly many people could have gone up and down into the T. I'm not saying they did, but for Bill Barr to say that nobody went in or out and that convinced them it was a suicide, well, that's like the, if I could say the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, I don't know whether to believe him or my two lion eyes because I know what I'm seeing. Another point regarding someone going up and down those steps to Epstein's tear in the inspector general's report. The inspector general, it details staffing failures and concluded a correctional officer believed to be Noel, who was the one who had these bizarre Internet searches on the jailhouse computer, including just before his body's found. Latest on Epstein in jail. That was just before the bodies found and then again the same morning. That's pretty damning. But that said, the inspector general said, well, that had to be Noel, the warden going up and down the steps carrying inmate linen or bedding. Okay, that's not true. Let's see it again. Because the wardens, the jail staff do not wear prison orange. That is not a jail employee carrying linen. And not only that, Noel swore she did not know why Epstein had extra linen. Remember, reportedly linen was used to kill him. And the inspector general says, oh, this is somebody taking extra linen up to an inmate. She says she never gives out linen because that's done on the prior shift. Okay, what does that tell you, Mark Epstein?

[Mark Epstein]

Well, one of the things about the gods that's interesting too. We know about the two gods that got into trouble for falsifying the records and not doing their rounds. It was Tover Noel and Michael Thomas. We know that Michael Thomas came on shift late at night. Okay, so there's never ever just one God there. That's prison policy. So there was another guard there earlier in the night with Tova Noel until Michael Thomas got there. So he also had to be part of the COVID up and falsifying records and not doing the rounds. Why have we not heard about him? I mean, his name is just recently surfaced. But why was he not charged like Tova Noel and Michael Thomas were? Why did, why did he get special treatment? And why was he not questioned or brought to the public eye that he also was part of this, you know, conspiracy to falsify records? There's just so much missing information about this and so much nonsense that if this was truly a suicide, it would be easy. There'd be no reason for all this lying and obscuration. It's just crazy. You know, there's, there's A lot of more information. For instance. For instance, here's a. Here's an interesting that you talk about videotapes. The FBI went into the prison to swap out the hard drives from the recording system. They were told by the technicians that if they swap out the hard drives, they're going to lose all of the information that was on the hard drives. Yet they swapped out the hard drives anyhow, and they lost the information that was preserved on those hard drives. Also, there was a. I was told that there was somebody with a handheld video camera there the whole time. That's also part of prison protocol when something like this happens. Someone's there with a handheld video camera. And I was told that the person was also in the infirmary when they took Jeffrey's body and also in the hospital where they took Jeff's body. We can't get the footage from that camera. Now, we know it also exists because we've seen some pictures of him working on Jeff's body. Okay, those pictures, those still pictures had to come from the videotape from that handheld camera. But we can't get the rest of the footage from that camera. Everything's gone. Everything's, you know, hidden, disappeared. Yeah, we were never able to get the 911 call that was made from the prison when they found Jeff's body. You know, we've heard 911 calls from, you know, George Floyd and a lot of other high profile cases. That's never hidden here. We never were able to get the 911 call. There's just so much missing information, just tons of stuff that's coming out now.

[Nancy Grace]

Another issue that has reared its ugly head is damning Google searches just before Epstein's body is found, and then 10 minutes later. And the significance is they were searched. These searches occurred on Tova Noel's work desktop computer. The latest on Epstein in jail just before his body is found, and then 10 minutes later when Noel was asked about the searches, she said she didn't remember anything about that and was, quote, very surprised. Those searches were on her computer. And that was the time she was sitting at her computer also. Let me ask Mark Epstein. This is Jeffrey Epstein's brother. He was convinced Jeffrey Epstein did not commit suicide. What about the cash deposits? $5,000 each in Tovenuel's bank account. And now we still don't know the purpose of the payments. What do you think about that? Multiple deposits? At least 12. $5,000 was the last one in her bank account. What's that? And it's all cash, Mark.

[Mark Epstein]

Well, I Have no idea where that came from. I don't, and I don't like speculating. If people have heard me talk before, they know I like to stick to the facts. But a question that pops into my mind is we know that Jeffrey made a telephone call the night before he died. You know, in the evening, they let him make a call from the shower area in the prison. Now I just questioned, did they let him make a phone call out of the goodness of their heart or were they paid to allow that to take place? I don't know. So but that's a question that's popped into my mind. Why would they let him make a phone call, an unauthorized unrecorded phone call in maximum security prison that also doesn't sort of pass the laugh test.

[Nancy Grace]

From the. Wasn't one of those calls from the bathroom, did you say?

[Mark Epstein]

Yeah, from the. I believe it was the shower area. Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

Why do you send an inmate unsupervised to the shower to make private cell phone calls?

[Mark Epstein]

He told them supposedly that he was calling his mother. This was in 2019. Our mother passed away in 2004.

[Nancy Grace]

Another issue, Mark, is the fact that in a case that is so high profile, of all things missing, is the alleged noose. After extensive searches, the noose was not identified. We see that. But questions have lingered on that topic.

[Mark Epstein]

Nancy, Dr. Roman, who did the autopsy, we recently got her deposition. She was questioned afterwards, and in a deposition, she said she was told not to take DNA evidence and she was prohibited from going to the crime scene. Highly unusual in a case like that where they're trying to find a cause of death. Why was she prohibited from seeing the crime scene? First of all, the crime scene was completely destroyed before anybody got there. They should not have moved Jeff's body. Another question, when they found Jeffrey, we know he was dead for at least a couple of hours because if you've seen the picture of the groove in his neck, the fact that the groove in his neck is stayed in his neck, it's indented, means he had to be dead for like a couple of hours at least. Because if you strangled somebody and just released them, your skin would flatten out because you still have cell pressure inside. Your skin is still supple and flexible. But after a couple of hours, your skin starts to dry out and rigor mortar starts setting in. So that's how we know he was dead for at least two hours. So why the nonsense attempt to make it look like he was revivable? Why? You know, they intubated him. There's a picture of them wheeling him out, you know, squeezing an air balloon, putting air into his lungs. This guy's been dead for at least a couple of hours at this point in time. More so because it was a couple of hours when they found him. And by the time they're moving him out of the prison to go to the hospital, it's got to be another half hour. You know, this guy's not coming back. And then I have a photograph of him in the prison laying on a gurney on his back. You know, his body, he's dead and he's wearing a hospital gown. So who decided to dress a dead body in a hospital gown? Normally, dead bodies are either in body bags or covered by a sheet. You know, they had to actually put his arms through the sleeves of his hospital gowns to kind of tie in the back. You know, it's like, why the charade of trying to make it look like he was, you know, salvageable when he was dead for a couple of hours?

[Nancy Grace]

Mark, what do you make of new video that has emerged showing guards milling around with your brother just a few feet away in his cell instead of making their mandatory rounds? Why were they there?

[Mark Epstein]

I. I don't know the answer to that question. It's a good question. There's also the issue of the head count. You know, before Jeffrey's death, there was a headcount. There were 73 prisoners on the tier. The next day, there were 72 prisoners on the tier, according to the official headcount. And there's no record of somebody being taken off. So where. Who's the missing prisoner?

[Nancy Grace]

Mark Epstein, what is the main reason you're convinced your brother did not commit suicide?

[Mark Epstein]

Well, from the scientific results of the study of the autopsy, you know, the angle of the mark on his neck is not what you would find if he was hanging the way they said he was hanging. You know, there's also other parts of his. There's like a bruise on his back which is on the autopsy, but has been ignored by the DOJ's report. They think that's a defensive wound. They think that there was a bit of a struggle and Jeffrey was strangled. And there's other. There's other things that will come out when these reports come out that will cementa.

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for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1 bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc, SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this

[Jacob Goldstein]

is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? Business software is expensive and when you buy software from lots of different companies it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites to sales to inventory to accounting. All linked and talking to each other. Check out Odoo at o d o o dot com. That's O-O-O.com crime stories with Nancy Grace.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us tonight, Jeffrey Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein, convinced his brother did not commit suicide. You also stated that other groups have been sending you information regarding homicide.

[Mark Epstein]

Oh, I, I get a lot of information. People send me a lot of information. Most of it is unverifiable. And, you know, that doesn't really account too much. But it's. Other information comes in and it's valuable. It's like the people that are studying the autopsy. You know, their opinions are based on facts. I, I don't like to speculate on anything. I like to stick to the facts. And they're, you know, comparing all this stuff to all the literature out there and the photographs, and they're concluding that this was not suicide the way they're trying to make it off, make it

[Nancy Grace]

out to be okay.

[Mark Epstein]

Also, you know, Jeffrey had a hearing coming up. He was trying to appeal the bail decision, and they were. He was putting up enough assets, it would have been the highest bail ever in US History. So there's a chance maybe he would have gotten bail, which might have been unpalatable to some people, but he might have gotten bail. Why would he kill himself before that hearing, which would have been in the next week or two tops, you know, because if he got bail, he'd be living in his house, he'd have an ankle monitor on with armed guards, and, you know, he'd surrender passports, the camera set up so he couldn't go anywhere, I don't think he'd be a flight risk anyhow. And why would he kill himself before that hearing? I could see. Okay. If he had the hearing and bail was denied again and he didn't want to spend a year in jail awaiting a trial. I could see. Then take yourself out. Also, let me be really clear. When I first heard that Jeffrey was dead from an apparent suicide, I believed it. I had no reason to doubt it. I just thought that, well, he decided to take himself out. He didn't want to be in jail. Life in jail as a pedophile is no fun for anybody. And these are all things that might have been playing on his head. So there was no reason for me to doubt it. But when they did the autopsy the next day, and the two highly qualified pathologists said they can't call it a suicide because it looks too much like a homicide, that's when I'm like, well, what's going on here? And that's when we started looking into things. And the more we look, the more it shows. That wasn't a suicide. No. I was like with Cash Patel in his recent testimony, he said that when he was asked about this, he said, you know a suicide when you see one. That's what he said. And I actually laughed. I thought, how many suicides is this actually seen? That makes him the expert. Also, he was not there. He didn't see the body. He wasn't at the crime scene. So just what the hell is he talking about?

[Nancy Grace]

We have been told over and over and over no one had access to Jeffrey Epstein's cell at the time he was killed. I want you to look at video. And this video is not something that crime stories came up with. This is directly from FBI files that the public forced the government to release. And in the FBI files, it states that this is an independent review of footage. It confirmed Epstein was in his cell and, quote, nobody entered the tears. But yet here we see a, quote, flash of orange. An FBI agent noted the, quote, flash of orange ascending going up the stairs, and state it could possibly be an inmate escorted up to the tier. And in the same document, the FBI says it is possibly staff carrying inmate linen or bedding up the stairs. Well, I can tell you this right now. Employees of the jail do not wear prison orange. That did not happen. I'd like to see the video one more time. It's amazing to me that in the Epstein files, it is stated that no one had access going up or down to Epstein's tier. Yet here we see it with our own eyes. Straight out to investigative journalist, author of down the Hill, Susan Hendricks. Where did the video come from?

[Susan Hendricks]

Yeah, it came from surveillance inside of the prison where Jeffrey Epstein was. And that footage came from a little before 10:40pm they noticed that. And the two guards just coincidentally stopped looking in on Epstein from 10:40 to 6:30am so what is that? What is that? And the female security guard was questioned. Could that be you with linens? She said, no, that's the shift before us. That wasn't Me with linens. Well, it's something. Who is it and what is it?

[Nancy Grace]

Well, obviously, it's a person. So I've got the answer as to what I know. It's not a guard because guards do not wear the same outfit as the inmates in any C.I. i mean, straight out to Dr. Duane Hendricks. Joining us, former warden at MDC in Brooklyn. Also Warden Sheridan, Oregon, former senior warden, U.S. department of justice, founder, president a New Daylight foundation, and author. You certainly are busy of who are you? See it, say it, seize it. Dr. Hendricks, please give me the Reader's Digest version of why employees at the jail do not wear prison orange

[Dr. Duane Hendricks]

simply because if everybody wore the same outfit, then inmates would be running in and out of jail and you wouldn't be able to account for the individuals that are in your custody. So that's the basic, simple reason why staff are not wearing the same clothing as those inmates that are incarcerated.

[Nancy Grace]

And that is sop, standard operating procedure across the country. You may be at the federal pen, you may be in supermax, you may be in the county jail with Otis and Barney and Andy. No prison employee wears the same thing as the inmates because the inmate and the jailers have to be spotted visually immediately. If there is a jail uprising, if there is a lockdown, if there is an escape, you have to be able to immediately identify who is who. Right?

[Dr. Duane Hendricks]

Yes. Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

So bottom line, Dr. Hendricks, is there any way in he double L that that is a jailer going up the stairs to Jeffrey Epstein's tear dressed in orange?

[Dr. Duane Hendricks]

No. To take your words out of your mouth, there is no way in H E double L that that would be a staff member dressed as an inmate. The only way that that would even possibly occur, and that would be in another unit where staff are doing some sort of scenario, some sort of training or something like that. But obviously that wasn't the case.

[Nancy Grace]

At 10 o' clock at night, they're having a staff training episode. What are you. Put him up.

[Dr. Duane Hendricks]

No, I'm saying I'm going to just

[Nancy Grace]

throw you in the pot with all the conspiracy theorists and let you stew.

[Dr. Duane Hendricks]

What I'm trying to say is the only time staff would even dress like an inmate is if they were doing some sort of training scenario. But they wouldn't be doing this training scenario in the special housing unit at 10:40 at night on a Saturday or Friday, whatever day that was, whatever weekend that was when he actually allegedly committed suicide. So, no, that is not a staff member.

[Nancy Grace]

Hendricks, do you know what you just did? You just spoon fed with A silver spoon. All the conspiracy theorists out there. Thanks. Okay, this was not a training activity. I don't know where he even got that. No offense, but that crazy. That's crazy talk. A training. You know what? I'm gonna let you sit there and think about what you just said. That is not an employee. I want to see it one more time, please. That is an inmate. What inmate? Who? As Susan Hendricks just said, who? Is it someone dressed like an inmate? Is it an inmate? Is it the inmate that threatened to murder Jeffrey Epstein in the past? Well, according to the FBI, we don't see anything that's not real. That didn't happen. Okay, back to Susan Hendricks. I want to talk to you about those damning Google searches on the jailer's workplace computer right there around the corner of Jeffrey Epstein's dead body. What happened?

[Susan Hendricks]

Yeah, it was 5:42 and one of the guards Google searched. Latest on Epstein in jail. Meanwhile, they're literally 15ft from where they were supposed to be walking by doing searches. Well, she said, I don't remember doing Google searches that day. That's weird. That's all she said. That's odd. It's easy, I would think, to be a conspiracy theorist here because it's one thing after another. And the two guards there who were supposed to be working, there's a two hour chunk that they were found sleeping. I've worked overnight in the news business. He don't just doze off. Something's odd there. And I could see how conspiracy theorists would run with this in the cell. Nancy, see how many linens are there? The orange linens. I was thinking the blur was someone carrying extra linens to Jeffrey Epstein to be able to do what he did, if he did it.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, according to the jailers, that did not happen. No extra linens were taken to him. To Angie Lewis joining us, high profile lawyer out of Palm beach, where this whole thing blew wide open with Epstein's first conviction for child abuse. Sex with children. Partner, Searcy law firm, Palm beach. Former felony prosecutor. She worked in the Palm Beach County State's Attorney's office where Epstein was prosecuted. I'm happy to say she had nothing to do with that debacle. Angie Lewis, when somebody says to me, wow, that's weird. That's like waving a red flag in front of a bull. I want an answer. Why was Tova Noel, that's the name of the jailer, googling Jeff Epstein behind bars just before his body was found. And then 10 minutes later, why? And then she says, wow, how'd that get on there? I don't remember that happening.

[Angie Lewis]

BS Nancy, you are 100% right. And to make matters even worse, not only was she making these very strange Google searches, but the timing is key because at those very moments, she was supposed to be doing rounds and actually checking in on him, and she didn't. This was the perfect storm of failures that is so crazy. It is almost unbelievable. And it's that. It's the failure to check. It's the lack of inmate that was in there, despite there being orders, the camera system failure at the very time of his death. He's left alone. This is all certainly, certainly the foundation for many conspiracy theories, but it really gives you pause here. And I think we have to keep in mind too, any one of these things would be suspicious, but they all happen simultaneously. What are the odds of that?

[Nancy Grace]

Also, there is the matter of the missing noose. I have been in many, many jails. I've been in juvie jails, local jails, when people are waiting trial. I've been in maximum security facilities

[Dr. Kendall Krans]

and

[Nancy Grace]

every CI correctional institute between. I have never seen the wreck like what was in Jeffrey Epstein's jail cell. This is simply disallowed, Dr. Hendricks.

[Dr. Duane Hendricks]

Yes, it is. This is a hot mess. I mean, first of all, he had a cell.

[Nancy Grace]

Put him up. Are you smoking tonight? This is terrible mess.

[Dr. Duane Hendricks]

Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

You don't say something like that under oath. What that is, is a security risk. That is a security and a flight risk. I mean, get down on it, man.

[Dr. Duane Hendricks]

You're absolutely correct. They took the. The other inmate. His cellmate left either earlier in the day or the day before. So I see that they took his, the person's mattress out. So there was no way, no reason for Epstein to have all these meds and all these other materials on one on top of the cell. And then all these extra linens. Someone gave him extra linens. Because there is no way possible that, you know, and I looked at some of the documentation in the Epstein files with their staff are saying, no, I didn't give him any extra line. It's this and that and the other. Someone gave him some. Some extra materials to. To have all his garb and trash and everything else. I mean, this is. This is the nastiest. You know what, Dr. Hendricks, in my life incorrectly.

[Nancy Grace]

Do you know what it looks like? It looks to me that someone has just thrown all of these linens, all of this into his room haphazardly because an inmate would not be allowed to have all this in the room. It is a security risk to him and other inmates. It's a flight risk. I mean, how do I know he's not going to tie it all together and go down the side of the building, for Pete's sake? That may be impossible at mdc, but that said, that's just one example of why inmates are not allowed to have all this in the room. Which leads me to a conclusion or a question. Was it all in the room? When did it all get there? Before or after his body is found? Because Susan Hendricks nobody found the noose, did they? How can that be? The man is strangled, dead. Somebody took the noose off of his neck. Where is wasn't there when he got to the medical examiner's office. So where is it?

[Susan Hendricks]

So one of the guards, Michael Thomas, Nancy, went in and said it took all of his strength to get that noose away from Jeffrey Epstein's throat to get that off. Then when the female came in Nova, she said I didn't see any noose around his neck. Then when he's brought to the medical examiner, she said it was a bare neck and she was handed something like here it is. This is the news that she said there were no tears in it, that it seemed just like kind of a round circle. Here it is. This is what was around his neck. Where is it? Did that guard, Michael Thomas rip it off the neck? He won't comment now about it, but they had a plea deal. There's so many unanswered questions Nancy, and that's a huge one. Where is it?

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[Nancy Grace]

o o.com crime stories with Nancy Grace. Straight out to a special guest Joining us tonight, Dr. Kendall Crowns. Dr. Kendall Crowns is the Chief Medical examiner for Tarrant County, Texas. That's Fort Worth. Never a lack of business in the morgue at Fort Worth. He is the star of hit podcast Mayhem in the Morgue, and he is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Dr. Kendall, crowns from the get go. I have said the wound going straight across his neck is not consistent with a hanging, even a hanging from the back of your bed. But according to what Epstein's brother Mark tells me, the initial autopsy, the medical examiner said point blank, it looks like a suicide. It could be a suicide. And they delayed ruling. I want to hear your analysis. Take your time.

[Dr. Kendall Krans]

Well, let's first start with the delayed ruling. Anytime a medical examiner delays a ruling means they're thinking about the investigative information and trying to make a decision that they didn't just say, oh, this is totally a hanging suicide. There was more to it that they were thinking over. The other problem is looking at the photograph that a hanging, if it's a suspension type ligature hanging, it will pull up. The ligature will actually pull up and create a V shaped structure on the neck. It will also slide up underneath the chin as well. You're not seeing that in the pictures. What you're seeing is it's pulling straight back and it's almost as if someone is pulling it from behind, crushing his neck. And then you add on to the fact that he has the fractures of the thyroid bones, the fractures of the hyoid, which are very unlike hanging. They can occur, but not to that extent. So you've got multiple fractures of the hyoid bone, of the thyroid cartilage, fracture of the hyoid bone, a horizontal ligature impression. It's not tipping up. It all doesn't fit with a suspension type hanging. It kind of fits with someone pulling it from behind. And also there's some claim that, you know, it's a cloth ligature and he could have leaned into it. Again, if he's leaning into it, he weighs 196 pounds. It wouldn't have caused those type of injuries we're seeing. It's all very suspicious. And even looking at the picture itself of the ligature, it has a pattern to it that looks wavy. And if it's this cloth that keeps being shown in the pictures, I don't see the waviness to the pattern on the ligature that matches to that cloth. So it's all very, very suspicious.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, Dr. Kendall, crowns, you got ahead of me when you're talking about the wavy nature. Could you repeat that very slowly?

[Dr. Kendall Krans]

So when you're looking at the Deep ligature furrow in the picture on the. I think it's on the left. If you look at the kind of the black and the red to it, it has a waviness look to it that doesn't fit with that cloth type ligature. Also, with cloth ligatures, they're usually soft and they don't dig into the neck as much as you're seeing there. And if it was indeed that ligature, it, to me looks like it's pulled very tightly. And then the knot itself is not a slip knot, so it wouldn't have tightly wrapped around his neck. It's a thick knot. So there's so many inconsistencies with a hanging suicide that it makes me pause too, and want more information, see more pictures to make a decision. Much like the medical examiners did in New York. They took their time to make the decision. So it makes me question of what were they thinking and why did they take so much time to call it a suicide?

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Kendallkrans, we were just showing a photo of the back of Epstein's neck. What could account for that?

[Dr. Kendall Krans]

So, again, it's, to me, that looks like if it was a hanging ligature, you wouldn't see that in the back of the neck because the ligature would be pulling up and creating this kind of V Exactly. Shape on the back. That, to me, looks like it's being pulled by someone from behind, creating those abrasions on the side of the neck that you're seeing in those pictures. And then you add on the fact that his wrists have bruises on him. You got to wonder if he was being restrained while he was being strangled. I mean, there's a lot of.

[Nancy Grace]

Hold on, hold on. I don't want that to get lost in the sauce. Marks on the wrist. Explain.

[Dr. Kendall Krans]

So there's described in the autopsy report, two contusions on the wrist. So these contusions on the wrist, what are they from? Has he handcuffed? Has he been tied? I mean, are his hands restrained in some way while they're strangling him? It's all, again, very suspect.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Kilmer, crowns, you have handled many, many homicides by ligature strangulation. You have handled many, many suicides by hanging. And when you say it kind of looks like ligature strangulation. See, I can't put you on the stand if that's what you're going to say. It kind of looks. It does look like ligature strangulation. I'm a jd, not an md and even I could see that on day one. With a hanging, a suicide, you have a smiley face, you call it a V. You have from here like that. That's what you have done. Case closed. With ligature strangulation from behind you often see a pullback and you see a straight mark. There's no way that that cloth noose left that mark on his neck. That did not happen. It doesn't kind of look like it.

[Dr. Kendall Krans]

It is agree with you Nancy, but you are limited by the information that were provided. I would like to see more information before I could give a definitive bags

[Nancy Grace]

of shredded documents multiple cash deposits into these jailers accounts. What? First tell me about the Money. Susan Hendricks.

[Susan Hendricks]

Yeah. 12 cash deposits between April 2018 and July 30, 2019 in one of the guard's bank accounts. To me this screams incentive. One of the last payments was for $5,000 and it was flagged by the FBI. She's on probation now to avoid jail time. To me it points to incentive on the reason why you would do it.

[Nancy Grace]

And it's not just $5,000, it's $5,000 in cash. Who goes around, and I'm sure there are people, but who. Who goes around with $5,000 cash to put in this jailer, the one who was looking up Jeffrey Epstein in jail. The latest just moments before his body's found. The one that swears she didn't carry linen in. I mean it's just Too much to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction. She is the author of Deal Breakers. You can see her now on Peacock and Bravo and you can find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com cash deposits. The last one, five grand. Now here's the tricky thing. If somebody said hey, who put a thousand dollars in your account? I could look at it and go oh, I know what that was. That was a refund for blah blah blah. But we still don't have an answer as to these multiple deposits including five grand in cash into her account.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Hopefully Nancy, there were cameras in whatever branch of the bank that cash was deposited. But Nancy, so many things don't make sense from a psychological point of view. Tova. This guard was searching not only Jeffrey Epstein, but as you can see on the computer search USA Jobs, Ashley Furniture. So it makes me wonder if she was already planning on going to a new job or to make a huge furniture purchase. So that's this suspicious, the fact that there's all the medication right on top of his bunk bed. You do not leave medication in any jail person's cell because they could overdose or suicide. Medications like that are dispensed by some kind of medical staff. All of those, the linens that are thrown in there, it sounds like somebody kind of stirred up the room in some way so as to camouflage what might have already happened. In other words, they're staging it to look like Epstein was messy, but in fact, it looks like there was a struggle to me. Nancy. You know, Nancy, you and I have seen the insides of Zorro ranch, of the island, of the beautiful home in Manhattan. Those houses were spectacular and well appointed and neat. You cannot tell me that Jeffrey Epstein would have allowed his own cell to look like that. Everything would have been neatly folded, the bed would have been made. And in terms of suicidality, Nancy, narcissists and sociopaths only suicide if they feel ashamed. Shame drives the suicide or if they are afraid of consequences. Epstein never felt ashamed. He never ever, ever was remorseful for his actions. And I believe that he probably thought that he would get out of this like he got out of the prior 14 months sentence. So this does not paint a picture of somebody who would have killed himself or of a prison guard who was really jealously zealously guarding the inmate.

[Nancy Grace]

Another issue regarding the jailer, Tova Noel. Noel has been called to come and testify in front of Congress. And they have directed that if she doesn't come, she will be subpoenaed. That said, I want to look back in on what I'm seeing in Epstein's cell. To Dave Mack, crime stories investigative reporter joining us, Dave Mack, take a look at this photo. What am I seeing?

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[Mark Epstein]

the orange sheets and the mattress on the ground, you're actually seeing cords and hoses from Jeffrey Epstein's CPAP machine that was allowed in his cell.

[Nancy Grace]

What I'm saying, Dave Mack, is that inmates have to use a spork. You know what that is? And it's plastic. It's a spoon, fork. Because they cannot have a regular fork or knife because they might kill each other. I say there's no way that those cords and hoses were allowed in his jail cell. And if they were, another problem. If you know or think you know anything regarding this case, please dial 800. Call FBI Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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