EXPLOSIVE EPSTEIN SEX PROBE FILE DROP: EPSTEIN BROTHER & VICTIM SPEAK

Summary

---

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode Title: EXPLOSIVE EPSTEIN SEX PROBE FILE DROP: EPSTEIN BROTHER & VICTIM SPEAK
Release Date: January 1, 2026

---

Overview

In this explosive episode, Nancy Grace delves into the latest bombshell developments in the Jeffrey Epstein case, triggered by a massive file release by federal authorities. She’s joined by survivors, legal experts, investigative reporters, and Mark Epstein (Jeffrey Epstein's brother), to dissect the contents of newly unsealed documents, challenge official narratives, and amplify survivors' powerful testimony. The episode explores the global scope of Epstein's abuse, ongoing questions about his death, attempts to suppress evidence, and the tireless push for truth and justice by survivors and advocates.

---

Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. Setting the Scene: The Gravity of Epstein’s Crimes

• [02:11–03:38]
  • Nancy Grace kicks off with a chilling atmosphere:
    • "Birds of a feather flock together: Epstein, Epstein, and Ghislaine Maxwell."
    • Alan Dershowitz bluntly asserts the vast reach of Epstein’s abuse: “Hundreds of young girls who had been trafficked by Epstein and Maxwell.” ([02:26])
    • Nancy expresses disgust at the breadth of deception and trauma: “Her name is like dirt in my mouth...There is no list. Lies. I never heard that. Lies.” ([02:35])

2. The File Dump & What’s Inside

• [03:22–04:21]
  • Survivors and advocates reveal that thousands of pages of Epstein-related documents are now in FBI hands.
  • The expectation is for a comprehensive report from the FBI, detailing why so many files were previously withheld.
  • Spencer Kuvan, attorney for nine Epstein survivors, flags the likelihood of many more victims.

“You, a single lawyer, have represented nine, which tells me that there are many, many more out there probably that we don't even know about.”
—Nancy Grace ([03:59])

3. Scope & Scale of Epstein’s Network

• [04:21–05:23]
  • Alan Dershowitz recounts representing Epstein’s first known victim (a 14-year-old girl).
  • Highlights that the victim network included “high-profile individuals in the business community, high profile politicians, royalty, you name it.”
  • The unresolved fear among powerful individuals about what Epstein “had to say.”

---

4. Why Are Documents Still Hidden? Government Secrecy Examined

• [05:23–07:21]
  • Nancy challenges ongoing secrecy:
    • “If there's nothing to see. Why not release them?” ([05:23])
  • Commentators clarify:
    • Some files remain sealed due to concerns they could “interfere with a potential appeal” or new prosecutions.

"I've never seen prosecutors so worried about the interests of a convicted felon, that is Ghislaine Maxwell."
—Nancy Grace ([06:58])

5. Victim Testimony: Shocking Details of Abuse and Exploitation

• [07:47–08:40]
  • Excerpt from Virginia Giuffre details explicit coercion and the traumatizing environment for young girls.
  • Nancy focuses on the need to release everything about “the desecration and the victimization of little girls.”

---

6. Global Reach & The European Connection

• [08:42–10:52]
  • Discussion with author Barry Levine about Epstein’s trafficking ring operating globally—children as young as 12 trafficked from Europe.
  • Nancy presses on: “Who...are the other men that are wealthy enough to pay to fly to US Virgin Islands and have sex with a 12 year old girl?” ([12:35])

7. Legal System Failures & The “Sweetheart Deal”

• [10:52–12:35]
  • Analysis of Epstein’s lenient 2008 Florida conviction, followed by continued criminal activity.
  • Dershowitz: “He had a limo pick him up at the Palm Beach jail...That's not punishment.”
  • Evidence of further abuse even while on work release.

---

8. The “Client List” Controversy

• [15:24–19:13]
  • Nancy and guests dissect myths about a so-called “client list.”
  • Alan Dershowitz confirms the FBI interviewed and documented hundreds of names, but cautions being “on the list” does not mean guilt.

“There's no Jeffrey Epstein client list...But the FBI does have names that they're suppressing.”
—Alan Dershowitz ([15:24])

• Ghislaine Maxwell, seeking pardon, adamantly denies the list’s existence.
• Sydney Sumner (investigative reporter) explains the origins: the address book from Epstein’s butler, Alfredo Rodriguez, misconstrued as a black book of clients ([21:55]).
• Nancy: “Sounds like evidence to me.” ([25:10])

---

9. Dueling Narratives: Denials and Hard Evidence

• [25:33–28:39]
  • Maxwell’s repeated denials about recruiting, knowledge of Prince Andrew’s alleged conduct, and claims certain infamous photos are “fakes.”
  • Nancy presents photographic evidence verified by media, contradicting Maxwell’s denials.

"The Mail on Sunday says they saw the proof. It is real."
—Nancy Grace ([28:03])

---

10. Epstein’s Death: Suicide, or... ?

• [29:14–32:17]
  • Nancy and forensics professor Joseph Scott Morgan analyze Epstein’s cause of death:
    • Suspicious “soft hanging” details inconsistent with typical suicide.
    • Evidence of severe fractures, unexplained bruising, and suspicious activity.

“I just assumed it was a suicide. But then…the city pathologist…said they couldn’t call it a suicide because it looked too much like a homicide.”
—Mark Epstein ([32:02])

• Mark Epstein, Jeffrey’s brother, expresses profound doubt about the official story, noting glaring investigative omissions and inconsistencies.

11. “Missing” Video, Possible Cover-up, and More Unanswered Questions

• [37:19–41:02]
  • Reports emerge of heavily edited surveillance footage from Epstein’s jail:
    • Nearly three minutes of footage missing, despite being presented as “raw.”
    • Metadata shows assembly from multiple clips, raising suspicions.
    • Unidentified orange-clad figure spotted in newly released video.

“[It] was assembled from at least two different source clips saved multiple times over a period of more than three hours.”
—Nancy Grace ([38:45])

• Investigative team disputes official explanations, with Nancy deeply skeptical:
  • “Everything we're being fed is poison.” ([42:03])

---

12. Survivors’ Courage: Calls for Justice and Healing

• [49:13–53:51]
  • A moving compilation of survivors’ voices, many abused as minors, now demanding answers in Washington D.C.
  • Recurring themes: manipulation, loss of childhood, government withholding of evidence needed for survivors’ healing.

“There are people out there who know more about my abuse than I do… The worst part is that the government is still in possession right now of the documents and information about that could help me remember and get over all of this.”
—Epstein Victim ([51:10])

• Annie Farmer describes authorities ignoring her and her sister’s reports decades ago.
• Survivors announce plans to create their own “list” of alleged abusers, for and by survivors themselves.

---

13. First-Person Survivor Account: Lisa Phillips Speaks

• [56:07–63:02]
  • Nancy introduces Lisa Phillips—model, actress, and survivor—whose firsthand story exemplifies exploitation and resilience.
  • Lisa recounts being ferried to Epstein’s island, feeling trapped, coerced into giving a “massage,” and forced into silence by fear and control:

“It was a wonderful day, just a normal day. And then right when it was time, everything changed. Everything went dark. The whole island looked different."
—Lisa Phillips ([58:47])

• Lisa describes the calculated recruitment of girls by other victims—a hallmark of Epstein’s operation—and the ongoing struggle for justice and healing.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "People connected to this case are dropping dead like flies."
  —Nancy Grace ([02:50])

• "Who in the hell are the other men that are wealthy enough to...have sex with a 12-year-old girl? By God, I am not letting this go."
  —Nancy Grace ([12:35])

• "There is such a list. There’s no Jeffrey Epstein client list...but the FBI does have names that they're suppressing."
  —Alan Dershowitz ([15:24])

• "I continued to be a disbeliever in the story that's been populated by the feds and the Department of Justice. There are just way too many connections here."
  —Spencer Kuvan, attorney ([35:42])

• "We are not victims. We do not like to be called victims. We are survivors. We're taking our power back."
  —Lisa Phillips ([57:06])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:11] – Start of main content and tone setting
• [03:22] – Reveal of thousands of new documents
• [04:21] – Alan Dershowitz on scope of victimization
• [07:47] – Virginia Giuffre’s testimony
• [08:42] – Global trafficking evidence detailed
• [15:24] – The “client list” controversy explained
• [25:33] – Maxwell’s denials and reality check
• [28:03] – Photo evidence vs. denials
• [29:14] – Epstein’s cause of death debate
• [37:19] – Jailhouse video editing and cover-up claims
• [49:13] – Survivors testify in D.C., calling for justice
• [56:07] – Lisa Phillips’ survivor story

---

Tone & Language

• Nancy Grace’s tone is relentless, emotional, and justice-driven, marked by outrage at institutional evasions and a passion for survivor voices.
• Guests express skepticism of official narratives and demand transparency.
• Survivors’ voices are raw, heartfelt, and steadfast—moving from victimhood to empowerment.

---

Takeaways

• The episode lays bare the vast extent and brutality of Epstein’s crimes, the persistent obfuscation by officials, and the profound courage of survivors.
• Newly released files and contradictory evidence fuel ongoing doubts about Epstein’s death and possible systemic cover-ups.
• Survivors, tired of official inaction, are taking justice into their own hands by compiling their own records of abuse.
• Nancy Grace, alongside her guests, insists: “We’re going to keep the pressure up,” making clear that public scrutiny and survivor-led demands for justice are far from finished.

---

For more survivor stories and real-time case updates, Nancy Grace encourages listeners to stay vigilant and support ongoing calls for full transparency and justice in the Epstein case.

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Commercial Announcer]

Guaranteed Human did you know Microsoft has officially ended Support for Windows 10? Upgrade to Windows 11 with an LG Gram laptop, voted PCMag's Reader's Choice top laptop brand for 2025. Thin and ultra lightweight, the LG Gram keeps you productive anywhere, and Windows 11 gives you access to free security updates and ongoing feature upgrades. Visit LGUSA.com iHeart for great seasonal savings on LG Gram laptops with Windows 11 PC Mag Reader's Choice Used with permission. All rights reserved.

[Chelsea Handler]

I have some very exciting news about an ethical phone carrier I just switched to this is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. Forget about all these other phone companies. Forget about Verizon, forget about AT&T. Forget about T Mobile. There's this new carrier called Noble Mobile and they actually pay you to stay off your phone. You can earn real money, up to 20 bucks back every month just for putting your phone away. If you're like me and you're tired of feeling controlled by your phone, social media, or just disgusted by those screen timer alerts, this is the answer. Go to noblemobile.com Chelsea and try it for ten dollars. That's noblemobile.com Chelsea have you ever turned.

[Commercial Announcer]

A dollar into ten grand? I doubt it, but now you can. On Better Picks Download the Better app, pick more or less on your favorite player's stats, watch the games and win some cash. It's that simple. Better picks available in 33 states including Texas, California and Georgia. Download the Better App today that's better B E T R and get a free $10. No deposit necessary. Must be 21 or older in a jurisdiction where Better Picks operates in terms of conditions apply. Better Picks Sports just got better. Get into the spirit with Vizio's My Hub, a new, simpler way to find everything you love on Vizio TV this holiday season, My Hub is your destination to discover new movies and shows tailored to you, find exclusive deals and discounts and keep your favorites organized in one convenient place. Plus, Vizio TVs have all your favorite apps built in like iHeartRadio so you can stream that festive music playlist. MyHub makes it simpler to find what you want when you want it. Visit vizio.com iheart and experience entertainment made.

[Nancy Grace]

Easy today Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Birds of a feather flock together Epstein, Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Alan Dershowitz]

There were literally hundreds of victims.

[Nancy Grace]

Makes me sick.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Gagged hundreds of young girls who had been trafficked by Epstein and Maxwell.

[Nancy Grace]

Her name is like dirt in my mouth. There is no list. Lies I never heard that. Lies. I never imagined this. Lies. There they are in their private plane. You know what? Bite me.

[Chelsea Handler]

This Epstein story is never going to end.

[Nancy Grace]

People connected to this case are dropping dead like flies.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

He was a master manipulator.

[Nancy Grace]

He's having dinner with Satan tonight. What you're going to see is a, a lot of flight logs, a lot of names, a lot, a lot of information. But it's pretty sick what that man did.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

A source had told me where the documents were being kept.

[Nancy Grace]

Southern District of New York.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Shock. So we got them all by hopefully all of them. Friday at 8am Thousands of pages of documents.

[Nancy Grace]

I have the FBI going through them.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Director Patel is going to get us.

[Nancy Grace]

A detailed report as to why the FBI withheld all of those documents. That is from our friends at Fox News News. Joining us now is a very special guest, Spencer Kuvan, chief legal officer, Gold Law, who has represented nine Epstein victims.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Nine.

[Nancy Grace]

Nine now prosecuted a lot of cases and when I would have three or four victims, that would be like an avalanche. You, a single lawyer have represented nine, which tells me that there are many, many more out there probably that we don't even know about.

[Alan Dershowitz]

I've been representing victims going back to the original prosecution of this case in Palm Beach. I represented victim number one. That was a 14 year old girl that I helped walk through the criminal justice and then subsequently the civil justice system which started the landfall of future victims of Jeffrey Epstein. I can tell you that in my contacts with the FBI during those investigations, there were literally hundreds of victims, hundreds of young girls who had been trafficked by Epstein and Maxwell. They were out there and then there were more than hundreds that actually submitted claims when the funds were seized over in the Virgin Islands after his arrest. So the victims are numerous. The stories are voluminous. They involve high profile individuals in the business community, high profile politicians, royalty, you name it. Jeffrey Epstein had the goods on all of them. And there were a lot of people, I have no doubt, that were afraid of what he had to say.

[Nancy Grace]

Dylan Howard is with us. Investigative journalist and author of Dead Men Tell no Tales. I'm very curious as to why the documents are not being disclosed. Now, Dylan Howard, you suggest a nefarious relationship between Trump and Epstein. Many celebrities take photos that later they wish they hadn't taken. Photos alone, do not indicate wrongdoing on behalf of Trump. But I will tell you what is a smoking gun to me. We were told the documents would be released. Now we're being told there's nothing to see if there's nothing to see. Why not release them?

[Commercial Announcer]

No, Nancy, I'm not suggesting a nefarious.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Link between Trump and Epstein.

[Commercial Announcer]

What I'm saying is that there has been a search for a nefarious link between Trump and Epstein. But I think that obscures somewhat the real crux of the matter here, and.

[Alan Dershowitz]

That is that there is significant intelligence.

[Commercial Announcer]

In the hands of the Department of Justice and the FBI that has not been released to the American people. And we know that through various motions that have been put forward in various civil cases in which the sdny, the Southern District of New York has argued.

[Alan Dershowitz]

That the release of those Epstein files.

[Commercial Announcer]

Could, quote, reasonably be expected to interfere with a potential appeal to of Epstein's.

[Nancy Grace]

Right.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Right, right. Now.

[Nancy Grace]

I know, I know. I've never seen prosecutors so worried about the interests of a convicted felon, that is Ghislaine Maxwell. And this goes back to before Bondi. The promise that these documents would be released and that any co conspirator would be prosecuted goes all the way back to Attorney General William Barr.

[Alan Dershowitz]

This case will continue on against anyone who was complicit with Epstein. Any co conspirators should not rest easy.

[Nancy Grace]

That's my friends at cbs. Let's just remind everyone what this case is about. Listen to Virginia Giuffre, one of the five individuals who allegedly committed suicide connected to the Epstein case.

[Commercial Announcer]

They said, take off your clothes.

[Nancy Grace]

I had these little girl undies on, like little hearts on them, I remember.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

And they were laughing at that because they liked that.

[Nancy Grace]

The younger you look, the better it is. It turned very sexual and it was abuse straight away from both of them. I had been a runaway and I had been abused before.

[Chelsea Handler]

So to have this, you know, ability.

[Nancy Grace]

To get educated and do something with.

[Chelsea Handler]

My life, I thought I was turning around.

[Nancy Grace]

That's from our friends at Miami Herald and ITV News & Lifetime. Dylan Howard. That's what this case is all about. The trafficking and exploitation of what we now believe to be thousands of little girls. Now why on God's green earth would we not want to release files about the desecration and the victimization of little.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Girls? At the very heart of this.

[Commercial Announcer]

Lies a very deep and disturbing question. If Jeffrey Epstein was operating a child sex ring, was he doing it for his own sexual proclivities or was he doing it for a perhaps far more nefarious cause? And I think the answer lies.

[Nancy Grace]

There. We have proof that Jeffrey Epstein's child sex trafficking ring spans much further than just the US I'm talking about proof that girls as young as 12 years old were flown from various countries to Epstein's island where they were handed over like a pizza delivery to Jeffrey Epstein and his wealthy clients. Joining us tonight is a very special guest, Barry Levine. Barry is the author of an incredible book called, listen to this. The Spider Inside the Tangled Web of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. The fact that Epstein wasn't just finding teen girls in Florida that were usually underprivileged, single parent home, no money, no hopes, he wasn't just preying on them. This sex child sex trafficking ring is a lot bigger than a few girls down in Palm Beach. We are talking about Europe, we are talking about Eastern Europe, we are talking about children, girls as young as 12 years old being put on planes and flown to the U.S. virgin Isles, delivered like a pizza to Jeffrey Epstein. And then his French counterpart, Jean Luc Brunel is dead behind bars. Wow, what a coinky dink. You have uncovered evidence that this is a worldwide operation.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Explain. That's absolutely correct, Nancy. And I'm hoping that if we ever get into these Epstein files, 300 gigabytes of material, that hundreds of thousands of pages, that we will help uncover the enablers who assisted Jeffrey Epstein. Now Nancy, you have to remember that after Jeffrey Epstein received that slap on the wrist conviction down in Florida in 2008, as part of that non prosecution agreement in which he only had to plead guilty to state charges for solicitation of a minor and was given a sweetheart deal of 14 months behind bars of which most of the time he was.

[Nancy Grace]

Not. I just want to tell you something. You're actually making my stomach hurt. It's actually hurting right now. If I had gotten a hold of this guy, he would have been under the jail, under the jail. And he actually had his limo pick him up, his limo at the Palm beach jail and drive him wherever he wanted to go. That's not.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Punishment. You're absolutely right, Nancy. It was sickening in terms of that slap on the wrist in Florida at the time the FBI wanted to put him away for 75 years. And then he got that sweetheart deal and when he was out on work release, he had a ankle bracelet and he was having sex, as I reported in my book, with victims while he had the ankle monitor on his, on his.

[Nancy Grace]

Leg. Little girls. And I believe you can prove this. Little girls as young as 12 being flown from Russia, Turkey and beyond to the Virgin Islands, delivered directly to Jeffrey Epstein. There are witnesses that see the little girls getting off the plane and going to his mansion. Not just one, not just Two, a steady stream. There are thousands of victims. Which leads me to who in the hell are the other men that can are wealthy enough to pay to fly to US Virgin Islands and have sex with a 12 year old girl? By God, I am not letting this go.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Levine. And you shouldn't. And the American public and the victims, over a thousand victims want answers. And that's why we need to open up these FBI files. And we know that it was horrific. He made the girls call him the Godfather. He had a gun strapped to one of his bedposts. One victim was so terrified that she actually attempted to swim off the island only to turn back when she realized the water currents and so forth. This was a island of hearts that Jeffrey Epstein brought these girls to. And only now are we beginning to learn some of the circumstances in the last.

[Nancy Grace]

Hours. A start reversal from the White House. Trump now claiming he wants the Epstein files release after much furor over the past months. Joining us tonight is a very special guest who has once again landed at the forefront of of the national news because of Jeffrey Epstein. May Epstein rot in hell. I'd like to start, of course, the news of the night is President Trump's stark reversal on releasing the Epstein files. And they are volumous. The 20,000 documents we've gotten so far is only a very small percentage of what there is. Just imagine it goes back years and years and years. And Alan, I'm very curious as to why this has been such an obstacle in D.C. why these files have been. It's like hide the ball. From the very beginning we've gotten conflicting statements. We've been told by Bondi, they're sitting right here on my desk. I've got the client list. But then claiming, oh, there is no such thing. Do they think we're idiots.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Alan? Well, there is a list, a list of FBI names that the FBI got in interviewing the victims. And there is such a list. I've seen it. And the names have been redacted. Some of the names have been made public. Being on the list doesn't necessarily mean you're guilty. It means somebody has accused you. But there is such a list. There's no Jeffrey Epstein client list. He didn't have a little book in which he said this woman is going to go to this guy, this woman is gonna go here or there. There's no such list like that. But the FBI does have names that they're suppressing. And the judges, judges, this is the important point. Judges have been suppressing information. They have sealed depositions and I think that your program, other programs have the right to go to court and say, look, please, the public has the right to see this. Let's unseal these depositions. But right now, nobody benefits from suppression. And that's why I'm so upset at courts. Courts, federal judges keeping names out. They shouldn't be doing.

[Nancy Grace]

That. What do you think is going to happen, Alan, now? Will we ever get the.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Truth? I think so. I think we're gonna get the truth. I think there's so much public pressure and there's so much pressure from Congress. I think in the end, everything will come out. It will exculpate innocent people like me. It will inculpate guilty people, and I don't know who they are, but whoever they are should be found guilty. And I think in the end, the truth will.

[Commercial Announcer]

Prevail. Glenn has been treated unfairly for over five years now. If you looked up scapegoat in the dictionary, her face would be next to the dictionary definition of it. She's telling the.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Truth. She's got no reason to lie at this point, and she's gonna keep telling the truth. Thank you. That's all we have.

[Nancy Grace]

Today. What is he saying? That's from our friends at the Tallahassee Democrat. Of course. That's Lane Maxwell's defense lawyer, saying if you look up scapegoat in the dictionary, her face would be next to it. Okay, she may be a scapegoat because everybody was angry Epstein didn't go to trial. That doesn't mean she's innocent. Ghislaine Maxwell may be the key to the client list, as we call it. Euphemistically, young girls that were lured by Ghislaine Maxwell say she is sinister, that she's worse than Epstein himself. The federal government also calls her, quote, crafty.

[Commercial Announcer]

Listen. Federal prosecutors wrote in Ghislaine Maxwell's sentencing memorandum that the socialite displayed a.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Significant pattern of dishonest.

[Commercial Announcer]

Conduct. They noted several instances of Maxwell lying under oath. In 2021, Maxwell told the court, I have committed no crime, which was demonstrably.

[Alan Dershowitz]

False. In a 2016 deposition, Maxwell claimed.

[Commercial Announcer]

She never gave victim Annie Farmer a.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Massage. But Farmer's testimony at trial established that as a.

[Commercial Announcer]

Lie. Maxwell also lied about her assets while applying for bail. Prosecutors wrote, in short, the defendant decides when she wishes to disclose facts to the court, and. And those facts shift when it serves the defendant's.

[Nancy Grace]

Interests. I mean, the reality is, who do you think Epson's hanging around with? Nuns and priests and virgins? No, he's with Ghislaine Maxwell. Ghislaine Maxwell, his hench person, his Beelzebub, has been transferred to a cushy dormitory style jail. And she gives hours and hours of statements, all of them a pack of lies. Is she trying to kill Curry favor to pave the way to a pardon? Well, speaking of her lies, I want you to hear one right off the top. Listen.

[Alan Dershowitz]

So there's been a lot of conversations about whether Mr. Epstein maintained, like, a list of people, like a book of famous people that he knew, like a. It's called a black book, or a client list or list. Did you know of the existence of any such.

[Nancy Grace]

List? There is no list. We'll start with that. The genesis of that story I can actually trace for you from its absolute inception, if that is what you're interested.

[Alan Dershowitz]

In. Well, first. First, you know, to be short, there is no list, there's no client.

[Nancy Grace]

List. Nothing like that. No, there is nothing like.

[Alan Dershowitz]

That. You know, during the time that you were with Mr. Epstein, and even in the 2000s when you were around less frequently, you never observed or you never saw any sort of list or black book or a list of individuals who, you know, linked to certain masseuses or anything like.

[Nancy Grace]

That? Absolutely. No, there is no list. There is no. I'm not aware of any blackmail. I never heard that. I never saw it, and I never. I never imagined it. So the original statement that Brad Edwards makes that's in the document contemporaneously is that it's pieces of paper that Alfredo has. It then morphs into something that Alfredo took, a book that Alfredo took from Epstein's computer. But there's no computer. I know. Certainly not in 2005 when this was allegedly taken. That came out as a book, and then it morphed into at the Civil Times, My Civil Cases, into a book that was taken from my computer. And then it morphed into the Southern district of New York as a combination list of minor Epstein's. That is a metamorphosis through documents that you can trace. What in the world is she trying to say? Joining me, crime Stories, investigative reporter Sydney Sumner. She's talking about someone named Alfredo Rodriguez. And isn't that Epstein's butler? Yes, of course he had a butler. Explain what she's saying. Sidney Sumner.

[Sydney Sumner]

Here. She's saying that the purported client list that everyone is freaking out about, wants to see doesn't really exist. But to get Blanche up to speed on where exactly this rumor is came from, she goes all the way back to 2009 when Epstein has just been criminally investigated the first time and civil suits are now coming out against him. So Maxwell claims that this law firm that was a little bit shady took on a lot of these Epstein victim civil suit cases and one of those attorneys was working with Epstein's butler to get evidence against.

[Nancy Grace]

Him. So that's where Alfredo Rodriguez comes.

[Sydney Sumner]

In. And so what they claimed, what this lawyer claimed to be a client list was really just an address book that the butler went through and apparently.

[Nancy Grace]

Circled or marked people who were involved in this trafficking.

[Commercial Announcer]

Ring. Did you know Microsoft has officially ended Support for Windows 10 upgrade to Windows 11 with an LG Gram laptop voted PCMag's Reader's Choice top laptop brand for 2025. Thin and ultra lightweight, the LG Gram keeps you productive anywhere and Windows 11 gives you access to free security updates and ongoing feature upgrades. Visit lgusa.com iheart for great seasonal savings on LG Gram laptops with Windows 11. PCMag reader's choice used with permission. All rights reserved. Want to sell your car your.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Way? Who.

[Commercial Announcer]

Wouldn'T? That's why CarMax offers a car selling experience designed just for you with online and in store options. Want to know what your car is worth quickly? Get an online offer in under two minutes. Want to think it over? Use OfferWatch to keep tabs on your car's value over time. Plus, CarMax offers flexible selling options with express drop off in store or pickup at home. Selling your car is in your control with CarMax. Want to drive Carmax pickup not available everywhere. Restrictions and fee may apply. See carmax.com for.

[Chelsea Handler]

Details. I have some very exciting news about an ethical phone carrier I just switched to this is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. Forget about all these other phone companies. Forget about Verizon, forget about AT&T. Forget about T Mobile. There's this new carrier called Noble Mobile and they actually pay you to stay off your phone. You can earn real money, up to 20 bucks back every month just for putting your phone away. If you're like me and you're tired of feeling controlled by your phone, social media or or just disgusted by those screen time alerts, this is the answer. Go to noblemobile.com Chelsea and try it for $10. That's noblemobile.com Chelsea get into the.

[Commercial Announcer]

Spirit with Vizio's MyHub, a new, simpler way to find everything you love on Vizio tv. This holiday season. My hub is your destination to discover new movies and shows tailored to you, find exclusive deals and discounts and keep your favorites organized in one convenient place. Plus, Vizio TVs have all your favorite apps built in like iHeartRadio so you can stream that festive music playlist. MyHub makes it simpler to find what you want when you want it. Visit vizio.com iheart and experience entertainment made easy.

[Nancy Grace]

Today. Okay, sounds like evidence to me. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. So, first of all, Ghislaine Maxwell, in her effort to get a pardon, says there is no client list. Let's hear what else she has to.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Say. Maxwell denies every aspect of Virginia Giffre's victimization, says she never recruited masseuses. Maxwell insists Jeffrey is lying about sex with Prince Andrew. Maxwell says Jeffrey used evidence from flight logs to fabricate the story, saying she was busy with her mom's 80th birthday, her home in London was not a suitable vision venue for royalty, and Jeffrey's description of her bathroom where Prince Andrew allegedly her was missing unforgettable.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Details. When you were just asked about the photo, you said you actually thought the photo was fake. Do you think it was just misstated or do you think it's literally a fake.

[Nancy Grace]

Photo? I believe it's literally a fake.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Photo. Why do you think.

[Nancy Grace]

That? Well, first of all, I don't remember it. We'll start, right? Okay. But the outfit I'm wearing is the outfit from my mum's birthday.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Party, so. But you don't have any. Do you dispute that they've met each.

[Commercial Announcer]

Other? Do you know whether they've met each.

[Nancy Grace]

Other? I do not know that they.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Met. Okay, so you not only so you think the photograph is fake, but you also are not even positive they actually ever met each.

[Nancy Grace]

Other. I.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Know. So you don't have a specific recollection of kind of being at an event or a party or your apartment or your flat in London with Prince Andrew.

[Nancy Grace]

And. Absolutely. Let's listen to Prince Andrew speaking to the.

[Alan Dershowitz]

BBC. I don't believe it's a picture.

[Nancy Grace]

Of me in London because when I go out.

[Alan Dershowitz]

To. When I go out in London, I wear a suit and a tie. That's what I would describe as.

[Nancy Grace]

Those are my traveling.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Clothes. That's.

[Commercial Announcer]

Me. But whether that's my hand or whether that's the.

[Nancy Grace]

Position. But I.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Don'T. I have simply no recollection of.

[Nancy Grace]

A photograph ever being.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Taken. The photograph is taken upstairs. And I don't think I ever.

[Commercial Announcer]

Went upstairs in Guslain's.

[Nancy Grace]

House. That's who our friends at BBC. That is exactly why defendants are told, keep your yap shut. Exercise your right to the Fifth Amendment. Because Andrew just. It got worse and worse and worse. I want you to hear proof that that photo was.

[Commercial Announcer]

Real. Despite Ghislaine Maxwell's insistence the photo of her, Virginia Giuffre and Prince Andrew is a flat out fake. The Mail on Sunday says they saw the proof. It is real. Mail on Sunday photographer Michael Thomas took the pictures that first ran in 2011 of the original printed photo. Thomas saw a Walgreens receipt for the prints from a location just a few miles from Giuffre's West Palm beach home. And now, nearly 15 years later, Thomas realized he also photographed the back of the print. The back of the photo is stamped with the print date, March 13, 2001, just three days after Giuffre was trafficked to the prints in.

[Nancy Grace]

London. It's not just about a client list, a little black book or videos. It's about a potential murder. Yes, of Epstein. You may not care about his life, but don't you care about the truth? Don't you want to know what really happened and what happened to the other four people connected to this case who all committed suicide? Joining me, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, and he's the star of a hit podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe? Scott, you and I both say that, you know, if I were a better. I take Vegas odds, Epstein was murdered. Now I'm throwing out Vegas odds, but you have reasons to think he's. He was murdered. What is he, number four or five connected to this case that has committed suicide or had an od, and, you know, there are thousands and thousands of victims. Joseph Scott Morgan, as the files indicate, that there are. I mean, this goes back for decades, and you get a new little girl every week. It adds up, Right? Who else may have committed suicide or died that could have testified? Yes. She wants out. I guess so. Why do you think Epstein was.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Murdered? Well, because. Well, first off, the ME in New York made a critical error of using the term soft, which means that you kind of slide into a noose where you're supported. It doesn't have to be a total.

[Sydney Sumner]

Suspension.

[Nancy Grace]

Hanging. When you say a soft hanging, are you talking about, like Robin Williams, where you attach something to the back of your bed or your doorknob and you lean forward to it as opposed to a violent drop down from a rafter and don't break your neck in the hanging? Is that what you're talking.

[Alan Dershowitz]

About? Yeah, it is. Most people.

[Nancy Grace]

Associate. Say it.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Man. With old judicial hangings, where There's a lot of violence. That's not what they're saying. However, the evidence bears that there was something else going on. He's got two, and I say two thyroid fractures. And this is a cartilaginous body. It's cartilage, like in your nose right here. So he's got two cartilage fractures right here. And then if you go up on the left side, the hyoid is very high in the neck. That's why it generally is not fractured in a hanging. And the left greater horn, it's kind of bird shaped. The left greater horn is snapped off at the tip. He's also got some other curious insults to his body. His deltoid or right here where the neck kind of dumps into the shoulder. He's got a deep tissue bruise right here which is not going to be associated with a hanging, Nancy. He's also got these kind of faint bruises that they documented on both the wrist and the ankles. There's a lot of violence that has been associated with his death or evidence of it, at least some kind of.

[Nancy Grace]

Trauma. Joining us tonight is a very special guest, Mark Epstein. This is the biological brother of Jeffrey Epstein, now dead. Mr. Epstein, thank you for being with us. You're welcome, Mark, if I may call you.

[Sydney Sumner]

That.

[Nancy Grace]

Sure. You have been disturbed from day one about the claim your brother Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. You say that did not happen.

[Sydney Sumner]

Why? When I first heard that Jeffrey was found dead from apparent suicide, I heard it on cnn. The government didn't notify me, as they claim. I heard it on cnn and at first I had no reason to doubt that because, you know, I knew he was in jail. He was potentially facing a very long term. I knew he wouldn't want to live like that. He didn't have any children to worry about. Our parents are gone and he wouldn't have to worry about me. So there was no reason to doubt that. But then the next day, the next morning, I had to identify his body because I'm the next of kin. And they did the autopsy and so far the same thing. I just assumed it was a suicide. But then the city pathologist who did the autopsy with Michael Bottom, there's forensic pathologist on my behalf witnessing this. They both came out of the autopsy room and they said they couldn't call it a suicide because it looked too much like a homicide. And then a few days later, Barbara Sampson, who was the chief medical examiner, she declares it was a suicide. And let's be clear, Barbara Sampson never saw the body. She wasn't at the autopsy. And after the autopsy was over that day, we claimed the body. So she never saw it. Also, a few days after the death, Bill Barr, the then attorney general, you know, came out publicly and stated that he saw the video and he saw that nobody went in or out of the tier, and that convinced him it was a suicide. And when I heard that, I thought, this is ridiculous to assume that it was a suicide because nobody went in or out when there were 12 other prisoners on that tier that would not have to go in or out of that door if they were going to kill somebody on the tier. And I was told that cell doors were left unlocked that night. And I was also told by somebody who was familiar with the prison that they weren't surprised to hear that. And also to think that somebody could get to Jeffrey's Tear, go inside, you know, kill somebody, and then leave completely undetected. It's just like a stupid statement that, you know, that's not what you base it on. We can't find out who the other prisoners on that tier were, when did they get there, and where are they now? There's been no interviews of all the prisoners on the tier, which would normally be done in a situation like that. There's no record of that. And then also the night when they locked up. But we have. There's a record of, you know, we know about the two guards that got in trouble, you know, because they weren't doing the rounds, you know, Tova Noel and Michael Thomas. Now, Michael Thomas came on shift in the middle of the night, but he wasn't there when they locked up the tier. And there's never any. There's never ever just one God there. On reports, there's a mention of an unnamed God number one and an unnamed God number two. The question is, who are they and why are they unnamed? Are they actual prison guards? Could they have been put there to, you know, to kill somebody, and then they disappeared into ether without any record of who they are? There's all these unanswered questions that in a normal, clear, honest face, even if it was a suicide, these questions would not be kept.

[Nancy Grace]

Secret. Spencer Coin joining us. Chief legal officer, Gold Law, who has represented nine and counting Epstein victims. Are any of your clients worried about how people connected to this case are dropping dead like.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Flies? First of all, the moment he was rearrested in New York when his plane landed, or New Jersey at that moment. I did an interview shortly thereafter, advising the general public he was never making it out alive. And, you know, Prophetically, he didn't. I was one of the first ones that said he wouldn't make it out alive. And frankly, I'm. I continue to be a disbeliever in the story that's been populated by the feds and the Department of Justice. There are just way too many connections here. I can also tell you exclusively because I don't know that I've ever talked about this before, but shortly after he passed in jail, I received a call from one of the guards at the facility who had retired. This is somebody that wasn't working there at the time, but was able to speak with me on authority because he had worked there and said, there is no way that someone within that type of a facility could have the opportunity to commit suicide. This is the most secure, one of the most secure prisons we have in the United States. It is a prison within a prison within a prison. It is three levels of high security, constantly monitored. And it was unbelievable to him that somebody in there would potentially be able to commit suicide. And then look at the photographs. This is a gentleman that was on suicide watch just a few weeks prior. And yet they give him sheets and they give him pill bottles and they give him wires. In the photographs, you can see all of the things that they gave him that potentially they could then use later to say, oh, well, look at all this stuff he used to commit.

[Nancy Grace]

Suicide. Rearing its ugly head is the accusation that the jail video has been edited from the night of Epstein's death. His own brother refuses to call it a suicide. Listen to.

[Commercial Announcer]

This. Challenging AG Bondi's claim of one minute of Epstein prison video is missing due to a daily reset. Wired reports the video was cut together in Adobe Premiere Pro from two video files. If true, this contradicts the Justice Department claim the footage was raw. Metadata from the raw Epstein prison video shows approximately 2 minutes and 53 seconds were removed from. From one of two stitched together clips. And the cut starts right at the missing.

[Nancy Grace]

Minute. Now, keep in mind, there are five suicides connected to the Epstein investigation. Who are they? Number one, obviously, Epstein. Number two, his French counterpart, the French Epstein, who was accused and behind bars on supplying underage girls. Who else? Virginia Giuffre and two other Epstein victims, all who could have testified in.

[Commercial Announcer]

A deep dive into the metadata embedded in the video presented to the American people as quote. Raw Wired published analysis indicating the file was assembled from at least two different source cliffs saved multiple times over a period of more than three hours on May 23, 2025. The file was then created at 4:48pm and last modified at 8:16pm the same day and uploaded to the Justice Department's website, where the edited clip is presented as raw.

[Nancy Grace]

Footage. Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter who has poured through countless documents and interviews. DAVE Mack we first heard that there was a glitch in the video recording system where Epstein was housed behind bars. There were a lot of glitches that night, weren't there? DAVE mack Two guards on duty in view of Epstein. He could see them and they could see him. They didn't have to watch the surveillance video. Both of them either fell asleep or went online shopping at the time he committed. But it's not just one minute. There's not just one minute missing from the jailhouse video, is.

[Sydney Sumner]

There? Dave MACK Correct.

[Commercial Announcer]

Nancy. That one minute that Attorney General Bondi has been popping about the reset.

[Sydney Sumner]

Of the video at 11:58, 58, saying that was because it was a 1999 system. Well, that might be explainable if that was the only problem here. But in total, 2 minutes and 53 seconds of video appears to have been manipulated and is missing. They're able to go in and look at these computer programs and how they're used. They can tell when you make a cut in the video and when.

[Commercial Announcer]

You join two separate pieces together, they.

[Sydney Sumner]

Can look and see from your keyboard strokes everything that's been done to the point where they're able to see how this piece of video was cut, how it was then saved. Another piece is cut and saved, and then the two pieces are brought together. The problem is when you do all that and then present it as.

[Nancy Grace]

Supposed raw footage, and it was absolutely titled Raw Footage. Raw footage means unedited. But you could see the jumps, as we call them in this business, the jumps where video is spliced together.

[Commercial Announcer]

Listen. Information has not been released about the inmates and cells adjacent to Epstein in the days leading up to his death. There were 12 to 14 inmates near Epstein, but no information about who the inmates were when the inmates were placed in the cells near Epstein, how long the individuals had been in jail, when were they moved, and where did they go? Mark Epstein says one of the inmates had been in the cell area for a time prior to Epstein's arrest and subsequent detainment and another Epstein's death. No information is available about the other 10 to 12 inmates in the area when Epstein.

[Nancy Grace]

Died. An Epstein bombshell. A shadowy figure dressed as an inmate is spotted climbing the stairs to Epstein's.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Cell.

[Nancy Grace]

What? And we're just getting 11 new hours of video where's that video been all this time? It's been described as a mystery orange blob, but that is not entirely true. Let's take a look. Look at a clip we got from the video that has just been released. You have to look in the. The original copy, it's a lot easier to see, but it is an elongated orange figure. It's not, as they're trying to tell us, somebody carrying laundry that had that. That's much better. That's much better. These are steps going up to Epstein's tier. Okay. We've been told the guards were asleep and mom was shopping online when he was killed. We've been told the two doors we've seen over and over and over. The only way to get onto his cell tier. That is a lie. See those two doors? Total bs. Those are not the only two ways to get in and out of that tier. Now, we also were told that there's a problem with the CCTV that you can't see Epstein's cell. Well, okay. Everything we're being fed is poison. Take a listen to.

[Commercial Announcer]

This. The public was already skeptical of the DOJ's claims. The footage from the shoe where Jeffrey Epstein was housed clearly shows Epstein is the only person who entered his ceblock the night of his death. A mysterious orange blob climbing the steps to L block has eviscerated all trust in their review. The Inspector General says the movement on the staircase around 10.40pm Is Co Tova Noel carrying inmate linens up to the L block. But video analysis experts say it's more likely the figure was wearing orange, not carrying orange.

[Nancy Grace]

Material. Straight out to Tisa Tails. Joining us, investigative reporter. She's at Tease a tales on YouTube. Tisa hit.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Me. The fact that we are looking.

[Chelsea Handler]

On a highly edited tape they released 11.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Hours. They said there was a minute that skipped. We now know that there's about eight minutes missing from that tape. There's not even the full. It's 10 hours, 52 minutes. We clearly see a shadowy orange figure. And they want us out in a did in a post Diddy trial world to believe that it's some Tom and Jerry stack of orange jumpsuits up to the ceiling that they're carrying through the. Through the correctional facility. And they want us to believe that that's not a human. The fact that the administration. Listen, who knows why they are telling us not to believe our lying eyes, but we see it for what it.

[Chelsea Handler]

Is. That is a human being walking into a.

[Nancy Grace]

Cell. Let's see it again. She's right, Tisa, my words exactly. Should I believe you or my lion eyes? I see what I see. Joining us right now is a very special guest. It is Jeffrey Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein. You know, Mark, I know that people are using you like a crystal ball to try to see into the mind of your brother, Jeffrey Epstein. What I want to talk to you about is that orange clad figure that is now appearing on video. And people are seeing it for the first time, which is concerning and not in a good way, that we are just now seeing video which looks like someone walking up and down a stairwell, coming out of a stairwell and walking around on your brother's.

[Sydney Sumner]

Floor. Well, there's a lot of things on that video that don't make sense. In the early part of the video, they said that they saw Jeffrey, you know, walk, being walked into his cell. First of all, you can't tell if that's Jeffrey or not. You can't tell who it is. And you don't just walk into Jeffrey cell off of that common area. You have to go up that staircase through a barred locked door and then into the cell. He was the first cell on the right hand side of the tier. So you don't just casually walk into his cell. And you know, I've said before, every time the government tries to squash this thing, they just get deeper into a hole with, you know, misinformation. People have viewed the videotape and they've seen it's been edited and it's been doctored and it's split from a couple of different feeds. So, you know, how do you trust this? You.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Can'T. The House Oversight Committee has released over 33,000 pages of Epstein related records and dozens of video and audio recordings associated with the investigation. Though committee members have warned that in addition to heavy redaction, over 97% of the release is already public. Those diving into the files have discovered interesting bits in the 3% that is new. Most interesting, the missing minute of the MCC surveillance footage has been.

[Nancy Grace]

Found. Sydney Sumner. What does the video.

[Sydney Sumner]

Depict? According to the government, the video depicts the material handler, this unnamed employee who is also on shift at the time of Tova Noel leaving to go home. So they are claiming that this is an employee who just finished his shift and is heading home for the night. And he walks off screen toward the main entrance of the Shoe and does not approach Epstein's cell. That's what they tell us is happening. But of course, the angle of this video is just absolutely horrible. It really doesn't show us much of anything. So it's really unclear if he did head out the main entrance of the shoe, or could that person have gone up to where Epstein was being.

[Nancy Grace]

Housed? We don't know. Well, Sidney Sumner, obviously there is more than one person in that area around Epstein cell. It's not just one person leaving for the night. There are more people there. And what we are being told is, is there is a cluster of movement outside Epstein's.

[Sydney Sumner]

Cell. Well, so what we can see in the video, these are the bottom of the stairs leading up to Epstein's cell block. So we can just barely see.

[Nancy Grace]

A sliver of that.

[Sydney Sumner]

Staircase. And earlier in the previous release of this surveillance video, we all saw that orange blob. And again, they told us that that person was actually heading up towards that cell block carrying. It was apparently carrying inmate linens or an inmate uniform. And of course, we're all screaming bs that's somebody in an inmate uniform walking up that staircase. So it's a very unclear angle, but you're right. It doesn't look like just one.

[Nancy Grace]

Person. All along, we have had nothing but lies. Lies. I was 14 years.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Old. I was 16 years.

[Nancy Grace]

Old. I was 16, 17, 14 years.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Old. This is.

[Chelsea Handler]

Me. This was.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Me. This is me when I met Jeffrey.

[Nancy Grace]

Epstein. This is me when I met Jeffrey.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Epstein. It's time to bring the secrets out of the shadows. It's time to shine a light into the.

[Chelsea Handler]

Darkness. These are women who have come.

[Nancy Grace]

Forward, and it's a whole slew of.

[Chelsea Handler]

Women kicking the can down the road. We are not having.

[Nancy Grace]

It. We're going to keep the pressure up. Epstein Victims storm D.C. demanding.

[Chelsea Handler]

Justice. I was only 14 years old when I met Jeffrey. It was the summer of high school. I was working three jobs to try to support my mom and my sister when a friend of mine in the neighborhood told me that I could make $300 to give an older guy a massage. It went from a dream job to the worst nightmare. Jeffrey assistant Leslie Groff would call me and tell me that I needed to be at the house so often that I ended up dropping out of high school before ninth grade. And I never went back. From 14 to 17 years old. I went and worked for Jeffrey Instead of receiving an education every day. I hoped that he would offer me a real job as one of his assistant or something. Something important. I would finally have made it big as, like we say, the American dream. That day never came. I had no way. I had no way out. I was. Until he finally told me that I was too old. There Are many pieces of my story that I can't remember no matter how hard I try. The constant state of wonder causes me so much fear and so much confusion. My therapist says that my brain is just trying to protect itself. But it's so hard to begin to heal Knowing that there are people out there who know more about my abuse than I do. The worst part is that the government is still in possession right now. Of the documents. And information about that could help me remember and get over all of this, maybe, and help me heal. They have documents with my name on them that were confiscated from Jeffrey Epstein's house and could help me put the pieces of my own life back together. But I don't have any of it. And I know the same is true for many of these.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Women. My name is Annie Farmer, and I was 16 years old when I was flown to New Mexico to spend a weekend with Epstein and Maxwell. That same year, 1996, my sister Maria Farmer reported what happened to me there, along with reporting her own assault at their hands and their theft of sensitive photos of herself, of me and our younger sister that she had taken for her work as a figurative painter. I am now 46 years old. Thirty years later, we still do not know why that report wasn't properly investigated or why Epstein and his associates were allowed to harm hundreds, if not thousands of other girls and young.

[Chelsea Handler]

Women. We have never been told whether.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Those images were found when they discovered a large amount of child sexual abuse material on his.

[Nancy Grace]

Property. And when I got into the.

[Chelsea Handler]

Massage room, Jeffrey.

[Nancy Grace]

Epstein undressed and asked me to do things to him, My eyes welled up with tears. And I have never been more scared in my life. When it was over, he made. He paid me $200 and requested in exchange that I.

[Chelsea Handler]

Bring a girl.

[Nancy Grace]

Each time to make another.

[Chelsea Handler]

$200. I told him I did not want to do.

[Nancy Grace]

That. And then he gave me an.

[Chelsea Handler]

Ultimatum. I felt and hoped to never hear from him.

[Nancy Grace]

Again. But he called me every day. He was so wealthy and powerful.

[Chelsea Handler]

And he would not let me go. I felt I had no.

[Nancy Grace]

Choice. If I disobeyed him, I knew something bad would.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Happen. I would like to announce here today, us Epstein survivors have been discussing creating our own list. We know the names. Many of us were abused by them. Now, together as survivors, we will confidentially compile the names. We all know who regularly and who are regularly in the Epstein world. And it will be done by survivors and for survivors. No one else is.

[Nancy Grace]

Involved. That from Rep. Thomas Massey on X. You are still seeing the survivors in D.C. in the last.

[Commercial Announcer]

Days. Did you know Microsoft has officially ended Support for Windows 10? Upgrade to Windows 11 with an LG Gram laptop, voted PCMag's Reader's Choice top laptop brand for 2025. Thin and ultra lightweight, the LG Gram keeps you productive anywhere, and Windows 11 gives you access to free security updates and ongoing feature upgrades. Visit LG us3usa.com iheart for great seasonal savings on LG Gram laptops with Windows 11. PCMag reader's choice used with permission. All rights reserved. Want to buy your way? Of course you do. That's why CarMax offers an experience designed just for you. Want to start online, then visit the lot, then go back online? Sure. Want to talk to a real person or chat.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Online? Either.

[Commercial Announcer]

Works. Want to take your time and compare all the makes and models? No problem. Then make up some time by filling out the paperwork at home and schedule express pickup or home delivery. Done. When it comes to how you buy, CarMax puts you in the driver's seat. Want to drive CarMax delivery restrictions apply. See CarMax.com for.

[Chelsea Handler]

Details. I have some very exciting news about an ethical phone carrier I just switched to this is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. Forget about all these other phone companies. Forget about Verizon, forget about AT&T. Forget about T Mobile. There's this new carrier called Noble Mobile and they actually pay you to stay off your phone. You can earn real money, up to 20 bucks back every month just for putting your phone away. If you're like me and you're tired of feeling controlled by your phone, social media or just disgusted by those screen time alerts, this is the answer. Go to noblemobile.com Chelsea and try it for $10. That's noblemobile.com Chelsea get into the.

[Commercial Announcer]

Spirit with Vizio's My Hub, a new, simpler way to find everything you love on Vizio tv. This holiday season. My Hub is your destination to discover new movies and shows take tailored to you, find exclusive deals and discounts and keep your favorites organized in one convenient place. Plus, Vizio TVs have all your favorite apps built in like iHeartRadio so you can stream that festive music playlist. My Hub makes it simpler to find what you want when you want it. Visit vizio.com iheart and experience entertainment made easy today Demanding.

[Nancy Grace]

Justice. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. I want to introduce to you a very special guest, a Jeffrey Epstein survivor. I hate to always say victim because Lisa Phillips has gone on to become a warrior. Yes, she's a mother of three Three. Yes, she's a gorgeous former Ford agency model. Yes, she's been in a major motion picture at, among many things, any given Sunday. A lot of people have seen that she's in it. She's beautiful, she's accomplished, she's articulate. She's also a Jeffrey Epstein victim now survivor slash warrior. Lisa, thank you for being with.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Us. Well, I just want to say thank you for that intro. The survivors are here because we are fed up. And we are not victims. We do not like to be called victims. We are survivors. We're taking our power back. Because what happened to me on that island back in 2000 should have never happened. I was brought there by another young girl. And that was the genius of Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking ring, as he got other girls and young women to bring.

[Nancy Grace]

More. So when you flew, when you were flown to the island, what did you think was going to happen?

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Lisa? Nancy, I took a boat to the island. I was at Tortola, the island next.

[Nancy Grace]

Door. What kind of.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Boat? Like a ferry.

[Nancy Grace]

Boat. So somebody picked you up at a dock, you got on, they took you over, and they dropped you off at an appointed spot. Is that.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Correct? That's.

[Nancy Grace]

Correct. That is exactly what the other victims say. Victims you haven't even spoken to or you don't know their names. So amazing how your stories already are like a fingerprint story. They fit exactly. Okay, you get to Epstein's island, and what.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Happens? We actually had a really good time on the island for the first several hours, hanging out in the pool, and, you know, we had a wonderful dinner where I met Jeffrey Epstein. And Jeffrey is charming and he's very intelligent, and he's locked in on.

[Nancy Grace]

You. You stated that you were told, hey, it's just a massage. You have to do it. Who told you.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

That? The girl who brought me.

[Nancy Grace]

There. How in the hate did it get to. You've got to give him a.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Massage. Just like that. It was so quick. It was a wonderful day, just a normal day. And then right when it was time, everything changed. Everything went dark. The whole island looked different. The walk to his bedroom, the anticipation, the anxiousness of, like, what the frick is going on here? And I'm looking at her, and I could see she has a little fear in her eyes. You know, something was wrong with her because she didn't want to do it, you know, but it's just something. She took a deep breath, and she's like, we have to do it. And so I just went with her because I didn't feel Like, I had a choice. I was literally trapped on an island. At that point. There was nowhere to run. And I was scared to death of saying, no, I'm not gonna do it. I didn't have it in me. Be like, no way. I just couldn't do it. I just froze and just went with.

[Nancy Grace]

Her. And then what.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Happened? Like, the genius of Jeffrey Epstein. It was a real massage. It really was. It was playful, and he was funny, and he was now asking personal, flirty questions. And, you know, he tries to make it seem like it's no big deal. You know, that's how he is. Until then, he turns. There's a little darkness. There's a little. There's a lot of darkness in Jeffrey Epstein. So he has this mask. If I'm your mentor, I'm going to help you out. I'm this great, caring, wonderful person. Look at all my rich, powerful friends. Like, he has this exterior that pulls, you know, young women in because he makes them feel really safe. And he makes you feel seen and heard, that's for sure. But then there's a darkness that switches where he just wants to get what he wants. And so he loves massages. He does. That is his baseline, his massages. But then it always switches until some. Some type of little bit of torture, you know, he wants to hurt you a little bit with his. With his hands and with objects and with the fact that he can control the two young women in the room. So it was. It was scary. It was just. I just. I'm traumatized every time I think about it. I know you have to ask these questions, but it was just the worst night of my.

[Nancy Grace]

Life. Lisa. Did.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

He.

[Nancy Grace]

Yes. And then you said the secretary would then call you nonstop to get you to bring other girls. Women to the island. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I'm getting ahead of myself. After he. You. I'm sorry. You know why I'm asking you this, Lisa? Because people. I don't think it happened. Because no one is doing anything. Because Ghislaine Maxwell is on the verge of walking free. I'm not letting it go because there are other clients that statutory raped girls and that forced young women into unwanted sex. That's. And nothing is being done. And I don't get it. I don't get why we're being lied to. And I see you sitting there crying, and it's like pouring gas on a fire to me to think nothing has been.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Done.

[Nancy Grace]

Nothing. Nothing. I also don't believe he committed suicide. That's total.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Bs.

[Nancy Grace]

Yes. What is your message.

[Epstein Victim/Survivor or Advocate]

Tonight. Lisa, it is not your fault. It took me a long time to get there and sometimes it's just seeing other survivors. Sometimes you just need to connect with other survivors. Whether it's Epstein or any other serial predator or anyone who can listen to you, you need support and you need to find the community. And you're not alone. You are not.

[Nancy Grace]

Alone. To all the survivors out there right now, we are speaking with Lisa Phillips, who survived Epstein. Please stay strong and keep the faith. Lisa, thank you for being with us. And thank you for being brave for other crime victims to see you and hear you and understand what you've been through, what you will always be going through because of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. But yet you are still fighting the fight. And now we remember an American hero. Deputy Sheriff Jacob Pickett, Boone County Sheriff's Indiana 34, shot and killed in the line of duty. Survived by wife turned widow, Jennifer. Sons Lincoln and Wade. American hero. Deputy Sheriff Jacob Pickett. Nancy Gray signing off. Good night.

[Commercial Announcer]

Friend. Did you know Microsoft has officially ended Support for Windows 10 upgrade to Windows 11 with an LG Gram laptop? Voted PCMag's Reader's Choice top laptop brand for 2025. Thin and ultra lightweight, the LG Gram keeps you productive anywhere and Windows 11 gives you access to free security updates and ongoing feature upgrades. Visit LGUSA.com iheart for great seasonal savings on LG Gram laptop tops with Windows 11 PC mag. Reader's Choice Used with permission. All rights.

[Chelsea Handler]

Reserved. I have some very exciting news. I am always looking for companies to support that are ethical. And let's be honest, the phone companies we've all been stuck with are not that. This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. You know, I travel constantly and supposedly I have international free roaming on Verizon. Yet my phone bills are still 300, 400 and even $500 a month. It makes zero sense. So I switched to a company with actual ethics, Noble Mobile. And they pay you for staying off your phone. The more you unplug, the more money you save each month. And the most you'll ever pay is 50 bucks. Unlimited coverage when I need it, cash back when I don't. It was started by people I know and trust. So if you trust me and want to join my mission to stop being a phone addicted zombie, come along. Go to noblemobile.com Chelsea right now and try it for just 10 bucks. That's noblemobile.com Chelsea have you ever.

[Commercial Announcer]

Turned a dollar into 10 grand? I doubt it. But now you can on Better Picks Download the Better App, Pick more or less on your favorite player's stats, watch the games and win some cash. It's that simple. Better picks available in 33 states, including Texas, California and Georgia. Download the Better App today. That's better B E T R and get a free $10. No deposit necessary. Must be 21 or older. In a jurisdiction where Better Picks.

[Alan Dershowitz]

Operates, terms and conditions.

[Commercial Announcer]

Apply. Better Picks Sports just got better. Get into the spirit with Vizio's My Hub, a new, simpler way to find everything you love on Vizio TV this holiday season, My Hub is your destination to discover new movies and shows tailored to you, find exclusive deals and discounts, and keep your favorites organized in one convenient place. Plus, Vizio TVs have all your favorite apps built in, like iHeartRadio, so you can stream that festive music playlist. MyHub makes it simpler to find what you want when you want it. Visit vizio.com iheart and experience entertainment made easy.

[Nancy Grace]

Today. This is an iheart podcast. Guaranteed.