FAMILY FURY BRIDE ELLEN STABBED 20X RULED SUICIDE AGAIN IN SHOCK RPT: COVERUP?

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: FAMILY FURY BRIDE ELLEN STABBED 20X RULED SUICIDE AGAIN IN SHOCK RPT: COVERUP?

Date: October 28, 2025

Episode Overview

This intense episode of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace explores the mysterious and highly contested death of Ellen Greenberg, a young bride found stabbed 20 times—including wounds in her back. Despite the seemingly overwhelming evidence suggesting homicide, her death has again been officially ruled a suicide based on a new, controversial report. Nancy Grace assembles an all-star panel, including legal experts, forensic professionals, journalists, and Ellen’s case advocates, to dissect the facts, spotlight alleged missteps and possible political cover-ups, and demand justice for the Greenberg family.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shocking New Suicide Ruling

• Nancy Grace opens with outrage at a newly released 30+ page medical examiner’s report reaffirming suicide, despite clear forensic red flags.

  “A rubber stamp on the last debacle… Thirty something pages of BS.” (03:08)

• Guy d’Andrea, former prosecutor, details the flaws:

  “The points she relied upon are nonsense… I cannot wrap my head around how she can make these conclusions in light of everything we know in 2025.” (03:35)

2. Crucial Evidence Ignored

• Bruising and Defense Wounds:
  • Multiple panelists note bruises on Ellen’s wrists and around her neck, consistent with restraint or defensive injuries, ignored in the report.
  • Nancy Grace: “You can actually see, see the fingertip markings. Bruising that is unrelated to the stabbings, and they are not in resolve… they occurred before the stabbings.” (04:11)
  • Bennet Nauer, co-author and case advocate:

    “She says in this report these bruises come from being a teacher of little children—many teachers, they are not covered in bruises.” (05:53)

3. Flawed Medical and Investigative Process

• Initial Homicide Ruling Reversed:

  • The original medical examiner, Dr. Merlin Osborne, ruled homicide. After a private meeting with a DA office representative (who later received immunity) and Philadelphia PD, the ruling changed to suicide.
  • Nancy Grace: “In sworn deposition, he states they coerced him, they persuaded him to change his ruling. Can nobody smell that except me? It stinks.” (08:34)

• Forensic Contradictions:

  • Dr. Kendall Crowns, Chief Medical Examiner:

    “The stab wound into the cervical spine would have made her a quadriplegic instantly. So she shouldn’t have been able to stab herself in the chest after that… It looks like a homicide to me.” (25:20, 26:38)

  • Blood flow patterns, wound directions, and biomechanical impossibility all challenge the suicide theory.
    • Quote: “Blood was dried from her nose going horizontally to her ear… If her face is upright, it should be coming down her face.” (12:17)

4. The 911 Call & Scene Inconsistencies

• Sam Goldberg, Ellen’s fiancé, is heard on the 911 call struggling to explain the scene:
  • “She stabbed herself? I don’t know… or she fell on it.” (20:11)
  • Inconsistencies about Ellen’s position—found sitting up but reported by Sam as lying on her back—lead Nancy to question if the body was moved (19:06).
• Discrepancy regarding the doorman’s presence:
  • Bennet Nauer: “He swears in a deposition he was not there, that he never left his post. Video shows that he did not leave his post…” (36:31–38:19)

5. Systemic Barriers and Alleged Cover-Up

• Judge Pat Dugan (guest):
  • Vows to fully review the case if elected DA:

    “We will look at all the testimony… and then I will make a determination whether or not this case should be reopened.” (09:40)

  • Addresses why DA office files aren’t handed over to Ellen’s parents despite the predecessor (Krasner) once representing them (43:24).
• John Lucey, investigative journalist:
  • Highlights the apparent “cherry-picking” and bias in official reports, and governmental reluctance to revisit the case for political reasons.
  • Notes the political peril for PA’s current governor, Josh Shapiro, should an official investigation contradict the long-standing suicide ruling (47:52).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nancy Grace on the new report:

  “It's total BS. And you know what? To you, Dr. Lindsay Simon, you're full of crap.” (05:20)

• On the blood evidence:

  “Blood was dried from her nose going horizontally to her ear. Does nobody get why that is wrong?” (12:17) Dr. Kendall Crowns: “...It doesn't fit with how her body was positioned.” (12:49)

• On biomechanics:

  John Lucey: “It clearly shows it was biomechanically impossible for her to inflict a lot of those wounds to her back of the head and neck.” (33:56)

• On administrative pressure:

  Judge Dugan: “What kind of circumstances could happen behind closed doors that a prosecutor needs immunity?... points to some pretty nefarious things.” (21:15)

• On perseverance:

  Judge Dugan: “I really don’t care about the Democrats, the Republicans… I care about the victims and the rule of law… Wherever the evidence leads me is where I will go.” (49:58)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:37 – Sam Goldberg’s 911 call (“I just walked in... blood everywhere…”)
• 04:11 – Nancy Grace details the significance of unexplained bruises.
• 05:49 – Bennet Nauer disputes the “teacher bruises” assertion.
• 06:49 – Journalist John Lucey on the Greenbergs’ 14-year fight.
• 09:40 – Judge Dugan promises a full review if elected DA.
• 12:17 – The blood flow discrepancy, Dr. Crowns explains why it defies logic.
• 19:06 – Discussion of inconsistencies in Ellen’s position at the scene.
• 21:15 – Judge Dugan on immunity for the DA’s office rep.
• 25:20 – Dr. Crowns details the fatal, incapacitating nature of the spinal stab wound.
• 33:56 – Journalist John Lucey describes computer simulation disproving suicide.
• 35:19 – Dr. Crowns underscores missing investigative protocols.
• 36:31 – Nauer and Lucey confirm the doorman never accompanied Sam Goldberg.
• 43:24 – Judge Dugan questions why DA file has not been given to Ellen’s parents.
• 47:52 – Political motivations suspected for keeping the ruling as suicide.

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Final Points and Calls to Action

• No person of interest or suspect named in Ellen’s death.
• Nancy Grace urges listeners with information to bypass local/state officials and contact the US Attorney for Eastern District of Pennsylvania at 215-861-8200 (50:39).
• Panel consensus: The ruling of suicide is at best unfounded, at worst a cover-up—denying Ellen Greenberg and her parents justice after 14 years.

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Tone & Takeaway

The episode maintains Nancy Grace’s signature blend of righteous anger, relentless inquiry, and heartbreak for victims’ families. The panel’s legal, scientific, and journalistic expertise coalesces around the overwhelming improbability that Ellen Greenberg died by suicide—exposing a criminal justice system mired in administrative opacity, possible political self-protection, and systemic indifference.

A searing demand for truth, accountability, and external investigation in the face of institutional failure.

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

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[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I just walked in my apartment fiance is on the floor with blood everywhere. Oh no.

[Bennet Nauer (Co-author)]

Oh no.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I can't see anything. There's nothing broken. She's bleeding. Ellie.

[Nancy Grace]

Can'T see anything. She was stabbed 20 times and miraculously there was very, very little blood on the floor. But that's not the headline. The banner tonight is in a stunning and I would say shocking report. Bam. A rubber stamp on the last debacle. I want to go straight out to Guy d', Andrea, former prosecutor in the Ellen Greenberg, now high pro profile lawyer Laffey Bucci d' Andrea Relsch And Ryan, why? Why is this happening again? What is wrong with that administration? Did you read this report? 30 something pages of BS technical legal term, BS, total BS. It's outrageous. Nancy Grace, I've read it front to back several times. The seven points that I found that she relied upon are nonsense. I cannot wrap my head around how she can make these conclusions in light of everything we know in 2025. Well, I'm stunned. I'm stunned. And I want to point out Monet Nauer is with me, my co author in what Happened to Ellen. An American Miscarriage of Justice. By the way, we're not keeping any money from that. That's all going to the national center for Missing and Exploited Children. Binet, you know what I noticed in this new 30 plus page report? Hey, whoa, look at that. Bruising on her wrists, which was not addressed in the report as a defensive wound. Bruising around her neck, which was not addressed as a defensive wound. Right there, that's what you call a fingertip bruise. Look at that. You can actually see, see the fingertip markings. What is very critical about those bruises? There's the door that was, quote, broken down. What's so important about these bruises is that they are unrelated to the stabbings. They are separate bruisings, and they are not in resolve. In other words, they're not healing. This is from that evening, and they occurred before the stabbings because if they had occurred after she was stabbed dead, you would not see any hemorrhaging. There wouldn't be any markings because the heart is no longer pumping. I have to bring in our doctor in just a moment. He can say it much better than me. Binet Nauer. So much is left out of this fake autopsy report. It's total BS. And you know what? To you, Dr. Lindsay Simon, you're full of crap. Next, Bennet, help me out. No mention of the bruises as defensive wounds.

[Bennet Nauer (Co-author)]

I could not agree more. First of all, this report is shocking in every way, but in terms of the bruises, she says in this report that those bruises are become from being a teacher of little children. I know many teachers, they are not covered in bruises. I don't even know what to make of that. But my. What really is driven home so powerful, powerfully for me here is that this does not feel like an unbiased, fresh new case. This feels like a rebuttal to me. It feels like this person, this medical examiner, took all of the existing evidence and went against every single thing. It's doubling down, it's tripling down, but it feels Like a rebuttal, like an argument against what? What is real, what is reasonable?

[Nancy Grace]

John, Lucy is joining me on the case. From the very beginning I almost said story, but this is no story. This is real. This happened. And Ellen Greenberg's parents are thrown into desolation yet again. They're not only fighting on behalf of their daughter, they've spent their entire life savings they had to sell their house. But they are battling, which to me seems like a corrupt administration. John Lucey, journalist, penlive.com and the Patriot News, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, specializes in true crime, author of Kill the Story and he has been on the Ellen Greenberg murder from day one. Hey, John Lucey, I taught school while I was waiting to find out if I got into law school. I didn't get a single bruise. Teaching Greek and Roman mythology. What about that?

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

No, I can't explain that either. She had basically cherry picked every piece of evidence in this case that the Greenbergs have unearthed that wasn't given initially. They found a lot of evidence over a 14 year investigation. And Lindsay Simon, the ME, cherry picks everything in the favor of the suicide and against the idea of homicide.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us, an all star panel to make sense of what we are learning tonight. Joining a special guest, Judge Pat Dugan has served the last 17 years as a municipal court judge, has seen it all. Also in the Army, Army Reserve, 23 years, Captain. And now has his sights set on the Ellen Greenberg debacle. Judge Dugan, did you know that her mother and father have spent their entire life savings fighting this suicide ruling? That first, when Ellen's body got to the ME's office, Dr. Merlin Osborne ruled it a homicide. Obviously 20 staffs, most of the bat, for Pete's sake, one slicing into her spinal cord. Then after a closed door meeting with a rep, a female rep from the DA's office who now has immunity. Nobody can explain why she needs immunity on what went down in that room. And members of the Philly PD who already ruled it a suicide on the scene. They have a closed door meeting with the me and then he comes out and says, oh, I'm changing my ruling after that meeting. Later, in sworn deposition, he states they coerced him, they persuaded him to change his ruling. Can nobody smell that except me? It stinks.

[Judge Pat Dugan]

So Nancy, yes, I'm running against the current district attorney right now in an election in November. What I'm promising, if I win this election, I will do a top to bottom review of this entire case. I will bring in a team of experts, former homicide prosecutors, homicide detectives and we will look at the entire record. I will review it with ethics and as an attorney and as a former judge. We will look at the Philadelphia District Attorney's office file. We will look at the Chester County District Attorney's office file, the Attorney General's file. We will look at all these autopsy reports. We will look at all the testimony and depositions that have been taken. We will interview people, experts, some of these people that are on your panel today. And then I will make a determination whether or not this case should be reopened. Because to me, just on its face, this case has been a black eye for Philadelphia since 2011. And Josh and Sandy.

[Nancy Grace]

Judge Dugan, I would never interrupt a judge if I were trying a case in front of you. So I'm really enjoying this moment. Judge, are you currently or have you ever been married?

[Judge Pat Dugan]

Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. Has your wife married either? Has she ever asked you to zip up her zipper?

[Judge Pat Dugan]

All the time.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, so I know what you're talking about. I will determine if this needs to be reopened. Your wife can't even zip up her back zipper yet. Ellen Greenberg managed to stab herself multiple times in the back, slicing her spinal cord, which was not really even addressed in this 30 plus pages of hogwash. Really. And not only that, I'm sure you're familiar with the wrong way. Blood on ellen's face. To Dr. Kendall Crowns. Joining us, the chief medical examiner of Tarrant county. That's out of Texas, Fort Worth. Never a lack of business in their morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at tcu and he is the star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the morgue. Dr. Kendall crowns on Ellen's face.

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

Blood.

[Nancy Grace]

She was sitting up, slumped with her back against the kitchen cabinets. Picture that. Her legs splayed out in front of her. A knife plunged in her chest on her face. I hope you can see the monitor on her face. Blood was dried from her nose, going horizontally to her ear. Does nobody get why that is wrong? Could you explain?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

So the blood going horizontally, if her face is upright, it should be coming down her face, across her lips, over her chin. She would have to be slumped to the side with her head tilted at a very awkward angle for it to get that horizontal kind of blood stream down the face. It doesn't fit with how her body was positioned.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I just. I just walked into my apartment. My fiance's on the floor with blood everywhere.

[Nancy Grace]

What is the address?

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

Please hurry, please.

[Nancy Grace]

She bleeding from.

[Bennet Nauer (Co-author)]

I don't know.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

I can't tell.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

She's.

[Bennet Nauer (Co-author)]

You have to calm yourself down in order to get you some help.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

She.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I don't know. I'm looking at her right now. She. I don't. I can't see anything. She didn't. There's nothing broken. She's bleeding.

[Bennet Nauer (Co-author)]

Ellie, you don't know where she's bleeding from. Cancer.

[Nancy Grace]

Blood coming from.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

It's. I think her head. I think she hit her head, I think, but it's not.

[Bennet Nauer (Co-author)]

He might have fallen.

[Nancy Grace]

Do you know what happened?

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

She may have slipped his blood on the. On the table. Her face is a little purple.

[Bennet Nauer (Co-author)]

Okay, hold on for rescue for her.

[Nancy Grace]

Stay on the phone. May have slipped. There is a butcher knife stabbed into her chest, her heart. She slipped and fell on the knife. Let's take a listen to more of that 911 call.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I went downstairs to go work out. I came back up. The door was latched. My fiance's inside. She wasn't. She wasn't answering. So after about a half hour, I decided to break it down. I see her now, just on the floor. She's not responding.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, is she breathing? Look at her chest. I need you to calm down. I need you to look at her chest.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I don't think she. I really don't think she.

[Nancy Grace]

Listen to me. Someone's on the way. Look at her chest. Is she flat on her back?

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

She's on her back.

[Nancy Grace]

Look at her chest and tell me if it's going up and down, up and down.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I don't see her moving.

[Nancy Grace]

According to the police report, she was not on her back. Why is he saying she was on her back? She was sitting up, leaning against the kitchen cabinets. So how did that happen? Was the Body moved. Obviously it was because blood was dry going the wrong way. She was found by the fiance sitting up. Let me remind everyone, no one has been named a person of interest to. No one has been named a suspect in this case. Let's listen to more of that 911 call. Okay.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

Do you know how to do CPR? I don't. Okay.

[Nancy Grace]

I can tell you what to do.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

Okay. Until they get there, I want you to keep her. Oh, God.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

Hello?

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

Yeah, hi.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. Willing to do CPR with me over the phone until they.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I have to. Right. Okay.

[Nancy Grace]

To get her plate on her back. Bure her chest. Okay.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

My rip her shirt off.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. Kneel down by her side.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

Oh, my God. Allie, please.

[Nancy Grace]

Listen, listen. You can't freak out, sir. Cause you. Okay, I'm sorry.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

Her shirt won't come off. It's a zipper. Oh, my God. She's selling a knife. Oh, no. Her knife sticking out. Saw what? There's a knife sticking out of her heart.

[Nancy Grace]

She stabbed herself?

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

I guess so.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know. Okay, well, don't touch it.

[Nancy Grace]

Judge Pat Dugan. She stabbed herself. That's what was said on the 911 call. Or she, quote, fell on a knife? That was said on the 911 call. And apparently the medical examiner's office agreed. Could you tell me why a prosecutor, the female prosecutor from the district attorney's office would have been granted immunity about what happened in that closed door meeting that they held? She from the DA's office, somebody from Philly PD with the medical examiner who had already ruled this homicide, and now today says it was a homicide, but I was pressured to rule it a suicide. That's in his deposition. Why would a member of the district attorney's office have immunity? I didn't have to get immunity when I was the prosecutor. Why is that?

[Judge Pat Dugan]

And that's the question. I mean, what kind of circumstances could happen behind closed doors that a prosecutor needs immunity? Well, obviously that points to some pretty nefarious things that might have gone on. It's sort of like going into court and pleading to fifth. I don't get it. I want to hear why and find out what the hell happened.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. Do you know how to do cpr?

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I don't. Okay.

[Nancy Grace]

I can tell you what to do.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

Okay. Until they get there, I want you to keep recording.

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

Oh, God.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

Hello?

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

Yeah. Okay.

[Nancy Grace]

With me over the phone. So they.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I have to. Right. Okay. To get her plate on her back.

[Nancy Grace]

Bury her chest. Okay.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

My rip her shirt Off.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. Kneel down by her side.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

Oh, my God. Allie, please.

[Nancy Grace]

Listen, listen, you can't freak out, sir, okay?

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I'm trying not. I'm trying to. Her shirt won't come off. It's a zipper. Oh, my God. She stabbed herself. Where? She's selling a knife. Oh, no. Her knife's sticking out that.

[Nancy Grace]

What?

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

There's a guy sticking out of her heart.

[Nancy Grace]

She stabbed herself?

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

I guess so.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know. Okay, well, don't touch it.

[Nancy Grace]

Stabbed 20 times. The back of the head to the back of the neck.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

My fiance's inside, so she wasn't answering. So after about a half hour, I decided to break it down. I see her now, just on the floor with blood. She's not responding.

[Nancy Grace]

A bombshell, a shock report, A rubber stamp by the medical examiner's office of an old and highly attacked, highly questionable medical examiner's report stating Ellen Greenberg committed suicide. The bruises covering her body were not addressed at all except to say her first grade students must have. What mob attacked her and bruised her? There were fresh bruises on her wrists and there were bruises that looked like. If I could see those fingertip bruises around her neck. And the theory is that she was subdued by strangulation and then killed by stabbing. This is what we call a rubber stamp. To Guy d' Andrea joining us, former prosecutor in this district attorney's office who waved a red flag, sounded the bell of alarm that this was not a suicide. What happened when you did that? At the time, Guy, that's what's crazy. Nancy, I. In 2017, after doing a full investigation, went to the office, including the medical examiner's office, and said, the findings are clear. This is not a suicide. And they agreed.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

Let me be clear.

[Nancy Grace]

The medical Examiner's office in 2017, right before I left the office, agreed that at a minimum, this was inconclusive. And so all they wanted was the neuropathological report to determine whether it was.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

Going to remain inconclusive or move to a homicide.

[Nancy Grace]

That was how I left things in 2017. So, Nancy, it's now 2025 and they've reverted back to this doubling down. So they. I don't know if they lied to me or what, but I don't know what's happening when everyone was on the same page in January of 2017. Joining us, Dr. Kendall Crowns, renowned chief medical examiner in Fort Worth, star of mayhem in the morgue, and lecturer, Burnett School of Medicine. This was a 10 inch kitchen knife. I'm curious about the angle, was it from up to down, right to left? What do you make of the weapon and what can we learn from it?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

So looking at the stab wounds, it appears that several are superficial. But there are important ones that go very deep on getting aortic arch one, getting the liver. The length of the blade, it can be shoved in because the skin is elastic and can be pushed further than the blade is deep. But the main one that is really upsetting to me is stab wound T, which I have a demonstration knife here, but it's entering into the back of the head and going kind of into the cervical spine and hitting the epidural surface of the cervical spine, which is meaning it's coming in contact with C2, which would instantly make her a quadriplegic. So some of the photographs you've shown of the neck shows hemorrhages of the neck. That would be like someone grabbing her by the neck and putting pressure on her neck. That could be a strangulation. And the problem is often with strangulations is they incapacitate the person, but they don't keep the strangulation going long enough to kill them. The person comes back alive, the individual panics and then looks for another method of killing them, often a knife, because they're very available in the kitchen, and then begin stabbing them. Some of them are shallow and some of them are deep. But the one that goes through the neck into the cervical spine would have incapacitated her immediately. And she shouldn't have been able to stick a knife in her chest after that because she wouldn't have had any function to her arms or legs or anything at that moment. So it's very, very suspect to me. It's not a suicide. At best, I'd say undetermined, but it really looks like a homicide to me.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, if it's not, put him up, please. You know, Dr. Kendall Crohn's. It's very rare that I get to cross examine a medical examiner and think I actually know something more than they did. But you said at best it's inconclusive. Isn't it true that there are only a very limited modes of death, manner of death? You got a lot of causes of death. You can be drowned, you can die in an accident. You can. Modes of death, manners of death, are accident, natural causes, suicide, homicide, and undetermined.

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

Correct.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

So I don't have all the photos.

[Nancy Grace]

Did I cover them all about the kindle crowns? Did I get them?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

You did.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. So do you think this was an.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

Accident, suicide or Homicide, right. No, it's not an accident.

[Nancy Grace]

It's not natural.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

He says in the phone call that she could have fallen on the knife, which is entertaining, but it could be a suicide or. Or homicide. Right. And the problem is, is you have wounds on the body that would incapacitate her and how could she continue functioning after those wounds occurred? And again, without all the information. I would like to see the photographs and the scene pictures and all that, but I feel like what I'm seeing right now, and yes, a bruise of that nature is not going to be caused by a first grader because they don't have these.

[Nancy Grace]

Hey, look at that picture. Dr. Kendall crowns. Dr. Kendall crowns. Look, do you see, do you see the resolving bruises to the right? Those are blue. Those are what we call in resolution. Those are older. They're already turning blue. They're starting to dissipate. Okay, the bright purple one is the one that is recent. Explain how we know that.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

So bruises go through different color stages as they resolve or heal. Of course, everybody's resolution is different and how quickly they heal and how quickly they disappear. But when you're looking, looking at bruises, you can say those bruises occurred during different time periods because the ones are kind of a blue gray, whereas the one in the middle is a reddish purple coloration. So the big reddish purple one happened before the other two did. But the problem I have with that bruise is there's no way a first grader did that to her because they don't have the power, they don't have the grip strength, they don't have the ability to punch that hard. That to me, looks like someone grabbed her by the arm and was holding her arm down while they. While they were sticking a knife into the back of her head.

[Nancy Grace]

Regarding the bruise we're showing right now, once someone is dead, they cannot bruise. Isn't that correct, Dr. Humelkrons?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

That's correct. Once you're dead, you no longer have your blood pumping because the pressure is gone and the bruises won't form.

[Nancy Grace]

Another thing in the new medical report. Translation. Cover up. Rubber stamp cya. Cover your anus. These bruises are, as we've already mentioned, attributed to her first grade students. Nothing explains away the post mortem stab. The stab that didn't bleed because she was already dead. What? She. She did that too? Could you explain why that is a non sequitur? It does not follow.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

Well, again, anytime you stab a person after their heart stop beating, there will be no blood in the wound cavity because there's no pressure left to fill it. Up with blood. So any wound that has no blood happened after she died and so that makes it impossible to have occurred. But again, I still maintain that I feel that cervical spine stab would have incapacitated her immediately.

[Nancy Grace]

Look at the diagram. You're talking about the knife going in from what we see right behind her ear. Is that the stab you're talking about?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

That's correct.

[Nancy Grace]

John Lucey joining us, author of Kill the Story, who's been on this case from the beginning. For those that are not familiar with the post mortem stab, could you explain it?

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

JOHN LUCY yeah, this was something that was only came to light years after and only because the Greenbergs were pressing the case. But they found a sample of Ellen's spinal cord that had been incised with a knife and they determined there was no bleeding. And then they had the pathologist who examined the tissue on this under oath and she admitted there was no blood associated with that wound and that one of the explanations was that it was post mortem. Now, in the new report, Dr. Lindsay Simon offers another explanation. Again, she cherry picked everything and made the conclusions all favor suicide. She says that nick to the spinal cord was done at autopsy. Of course that's been rejected by the Greenberg's case.

[Nancy Grace]

So now she's blaming the post mortem stab on the medical examiner, that they must have stabbed the victim, they must have stabbed Ellen during autopsy.

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

Yes, that is the explanation she is using in the report. And she is saying all of Ellen was alive when all of the wounds were sustained by her. And she actually ups the number of stab wounds to 23 to 23. She's saying she found up to eight shallow wounds which she describes as hesitation wounds which are common to suicides by stabbing. In other words, shallow wounds put him up.

[Nancy Grace]

They're called exploratory or experimental wounds. When somebody's trying to stab themselves and they don't really have the guts to do it, so they're kind of like trying it out. JOHN Lucy, are you familiar with the methods and assessment of homicide and suicide which reveals how unlikely it is for a female to stab herself dead?

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

Practically never. Also, many of the experimental exploratory wounds were to her back. Isn't that true? JOHN LUCY Yes.

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

And the Greenbergs to their credit, had a computer simulation of all the wounds and placing an imaginary digital knife into the direction of each stab wound based on all the notes at autopsy. And it clearly shows basically it was biomechanically impossible for her to inflict a lot of those wounds to her back of the Head and neck. But again, Dr. Lindsay Simon takes the other side and says that while these were the distribution of wounds were unusual, her words, they were not impossible. So. And again, impossible.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. If you want to believe the first graders attacked her and she is an alarm Olympic gymnast and could do a contortion to stab herself in the back. And isn't it true, Dr. Kendall Crown's chief medical examiner, Tarrant county, that you would have to do experiments to determine whether she could stab herself in the back and whether she could stab herself after she's already dead, but there were no measurements taken of her arms or to determine was this even possible. None of that was done, Correct?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns (Chief Medical Examiner)]

None of that was done. And also wounds were not documented. Even those wounds of the photographs that you have of the bruises on the neck were not documented in the report. So to me there's information that wasn't even put in the report to begin with. So it makes the whole thing questionable.

[Nancy Grace]

I have to right to the back a horrible gas on the back of her head.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

So I think her head, I think she hit her head.

[Nancy Grace]

I think straight out to my co author Bennet Nauer, who tirelessly combed through facts with me to write what happened to Ellen. Got a question for you. Bne during all these 911 calls, I don't hear a peep from the doorman. The doorman that the fiance says came up with him to watch him as a witness, I guess, break down the door. Why am I not hearing the doorman at all on the 911 calls if he was standing right there at the door like the fiance said?

[Bennet Nauer (Co-author)]

Because he swears and said so, you know, in a deposition that he was not there, that he never left his post. The doorman swears unwaveringly and said so in a deposition that he was not at that door, that he was asked by Sam Goldberg to accompany him there, but did not, that he could not leave his post and he was not there, period.

[Nancy Grace]

Vinay, you spoke with the doorman?

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

What did he tell you happened the night Ellen was murdered?

[Bennet Nauer (Co-author)]

He said that Sam Goldberg asked him to accompany him to the apartment and that he said he could not leave his post. He said that video shows that he did not leave his post, he was not there and he said anything that that is an out and out lie that never happened. Anyone who says he did that is.

[Nancy Grace]

Lynae n. How did this whole thing start with the doorman?

[Bennet Nauer (Co-author)]

Sam Goldberg went to him, explained that he was having trouble getting into the apartment where his fiance was. He couldn't get in. He asked the doorman to go with him to accompany him to the apartment and the doorman said I absolutely cannot leave my post and did not go with Sam. He swears and said in a deposition that he did not leave his position, his post and did not accompany Sam Goldberg to the door, that he was not there, he was not standing there when the call was made to 911, that he did not go with him, he did not witness anything that happened there personally.

[Nancy Grace]

So there were no witnesses to the fiance breaking down the door and the doorman did not go up as a witness.

[Bennet Nauer (Co-author)]

Correct. And he swears to that? Absolutely. And says anybody who says otherwise is lying and that there is no video evidence of it, that he was not there.

[Nancy Grace]

So the video bears out what the doorman is saying.

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

Correct.

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

Stories with Nancy Grace to Judge Pat Dugan 17 years on the bench, former Army Captain Judge Dugan. Why won't the District Attorney's office hand over Ellen's file to her parents?

[Judge Pat Dugan]

So what I really don't understand is that Mr. Krasner actually represented the Green, the Greenberg's in the death of Ellen before he was the District Attorney. So he had a personal file involved in this case before he was the DA. And according to Josh and Sandy, they've asked Mr. Krasner for that file back. And for whatever reason, he's not giving back that file. Now there might be a few things in there that Krasner wants to keep. You know, deep thoughts and all that, but most of that should be turned over to the client. So I don't understand why that personal file for for Ellen's parents have not been turned over to them. I believe it belongs to them.

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

The police changed their theory on homicide because they could not find defensive wounds. So let's start there. Ellen's wrists were both badly bruised like she was being restrained. Number two, there were wounds to her neck consistent with strangulation. Number three, the two wounds that were in Ellen's back of her neck and in her chest. The medical exam, one of the medical examiners before she was dismissed said that those were postmortem. We've been looking at the knife wounds. We should have looking at strangulation, eye petechiae, etc looking at the layers of the muscle around the neck for bleeding.

[Nancy Grace]

From Fox News Digital.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

Oh God. Oh my God. She stabbed herself.

[Nancy Grace]

She felt.

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

Oh no, her knife's sticking out.

[Nancy Grace]

How could that be ruled suicide?

[Sam Goldberg (Fiance)]

Oh my God. Allie, please visit that sticky out of her heart.

[Nancy Grace]

It seemingly never ends. I remember. Do you B n auer the elation we shared with Josh and Sandy Greenberg when a new review was ordered. A new review? Review of the evidence. I guess I should have seen it coming. When you don't know a horse, look at his track record. But I genuinely thought that there would be an impartial review and Ella could finally get justice. That did not happen. Why are we so naive?

[Bennet Nauer (Co-author)]

There's not a better word than stunning and outrageous for all of this. And I have heard, I have listened to that 911 recording no fewer than 50 times and it still takes my breath away. She stabbed herself. She fell on the knife. It's beyond comprehension. And when it was announced that this would be reopened, people were thrilled. And I cannot tell you the outpouring that I received after this news that it was labeled a suicide again from people on Instagram, by email, getting called. It's stunning, it's outrageous, it's unbelievable and devastating.

[Nancy Grace]

It's.

[Bennet Nauer (Co-author)]

It can't be real.

[Nancy Grace]

Wouldn't you agree, John? Lucy, journalistpennlive.com and the Patriot News, Harrisburg, Penn. Author of Kill the Story. Wouldn't you agree, Lucy, that the last thing Shapiro, the governor of Pennsylvania who was then the state attorney general, the top cop of the state, had been the district attorney. The last thing he needs is he tries to wedge his big toe back into the Oval Office like he did with Harris. That close, that close to the Oval Office's man. The last thing he needs is Ellen Greenberg rising up from the dead to bite him in the neck. In other words, a full on investigation of the DA staff coercing the medical examiner to change his ruling and the AG Shapiro rubber stamping that instead of doing anything about it. That's like, you know, biting a snake bite to the neck. He doesn't want that.

[John Lucey (Journalist)]

No, absolutely not. And he was questioned right after the settlement that the Greensburg reached in February at a press conference that was called for another reason. But a reporter there pressed him on the Greenberg case. He doubled down on suicide before the new ME doubled down on suicide. And certainly any investigation that would show otherwise would make Shapiro look bad, because he had this case as Attorney General of PA for four long years and nothing happened. He claims there was a thorough investigation and everything he turned up pointed to suicide as well. And he's on record reiterating that as recently as earlier this year. So certainly as this gains momentum, and as you see, it's a political football now in play in the Philly DA's race. So it could be an issue. And I. And I'm online all the time, and I'm on X and it's all over the place, and a lot of fingers are pointing at Shapiro.

[Nancy Grace]

To Judge Pat Dugan, 17 years on the bench, army captain, now running for the Philadelphia District Attorney's position. It seems like an unholy cabal. I mean, I'm on the outside looking in. I'm just a trial lawyer. My specialty, homicide. That's really all I know how to do. And I can tell you right now, Dugan, this is no suicide. So the only way to get around that, which I know to be true, is that for some reason, they don't want this case reopened. So you are going to be up against it. Everyone will be against you when you try to reopen his case, if you get that far.

[Judge Pat Dugan]

So, Nancy, I guess I'm a unicorn. I swore the oath as a soldier and as a judge to hold up honor and justice. I am not worried about politics. I'm running for office. But I really don't care about the Democrats, the Republicans. I really don't care. I care about the victims and the rule of law. I've been a public servant almost my entire life, and that oath does not have an end date on it. So I honestly don't care where the pressure comes from. Wherever the evidence leads me to is where I will go with that evidence, particularly pertaining to the death of someone.

[Nancy Grace]

Reminder. No one has been charged or named as a person of interest in the murder of Ellen Greenberg. Her parents need our help. If you know or think you know anything about this case, regardless of whether you think it's inconsequential, doesn't matter. First of all, don't call the Governor's Office don't call Shapiro, don't call the Attorney General. So call the US Attorney appointed for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania which governs this jurisdiction of Philadelphia. We have to bring in the Feds and I implore you to Please call the US US Attorney in that jurisdiction, David Metcalfe, number 215-861-8200 repeat 215-861-8200 I never envisioned a day that I would advise don't call the Governor, don't call the District Attorney. But that day has come. We stop and remember an American Hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Nunes, San Bernardino County Sheriff's California just 28, shot in the line of duty, leaving behind his pregnant wife and their two year old daughter. American Hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew and Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye friend with diabetes, everyday decisions feel like a mystery without a solution. But with Dexcom G7, the most accurate CGM system, you can quickly and easily see your glucose in real time on your phone, helping you make confident decisions that keep your glucose levels in range and lower your A1C which can help protect your long term health. Dexcom G7 gives you the knowledge to better control diabetes today for healthier tomorrows. Start your healthier [e-mail] knowledge data on file. For full prescribing information on risks, benefits and compatible smart devices, visit Dexcom.com let's.

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[Nancy Grace]

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[John Lucey (Journalist)]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[John Lucey (Journalist)]

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[Nancy Grace]

My mom uses it. Are you. Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a [e-mail] switch upfront.

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[Nancy Grace]

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