FRIDAY NIGHT SPECIAL : Bombshell Court DNA Ruling in Rex Heuerman Serial Murder Prosecution

Summary

---

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: FRIDAY NIGHT SPECIAL: Bombshell Court DNA Ruling in Rex Heuermann Serial Murder Prosecution

Date: October 18, 2025

---

Episode Overview

Nancy Grace dissects a crucial court decision in the Long Island Serial Killer case, focusing on the recent ruling allowing damning DNA evidence to be presented in the prosecution of Rex Heuermann. With an all-star panel of crime experts, law enforcement, and investigative journalists, Nancy breaks down the impact of this ruling, the background of Heuermann, investigative techniques, and the chilling evidence tying him to multiple murders near Gilgo Beach. The episode raises compelling questions about the scope of the crimes, the investigative breakthrough, and the ongoing search for further victims and proof.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bombshell DNA Ruling in the Heuermann Case

• [01:05]
  • Nancy Grace announces the court’s decision: new DNA technology will be allowed as evidence against Rex Heuermann, which is critical in the absence of eyewitnesses or confessions.
  • Quote:

    "We need that DNA to prove this case. In a very brief court hearing, New York State Supreme Court Justice Timothy Mezai rules the critical DNA evidence using new DNA technology will be admissible. This is a major blow to Heuermann's defense." (Nancy Grace, 01:31)

2. Case Background & Victim Profile

• [03:36]
  • The case centers around the discovery of 15 bodies over 20 years along Gilgo Beach, many of whom were petite young women, most working as sex workers.
  • Heuermann, a respected suburban architect, husband, and father, is alleged to be the "demon that walks among us."
  • Law enforcement created a special Gilgo Beach Task Force, crucial for breaking the case after previous investigative stagnation.
  • Quote:

    "If not for this newly formed task force instituted by the new elected District Attorney, this guy would still be walking free and I guarantee you would still be killing." (Nancy Grace, 04:55)

3. Investigation Breakthrough: The Arrest and Ongoing Risks

• [05:55]
  • Deputy Police Commissioner Anthony M. Carter details comprehensive efforts, including multi-agency cooperation (FBI, local police, state police).
  • Surveillance recognized Heuermann’s ongoing risk—e.g., purchasing burner phone minutes while under watch.
  • Kristen Thorne flags that law enforcement accelerated the arrest because they believed Heuermann planned further crimes.
  • Quote:

    "They wanted to have Maureen Brainard Barnes included in this indictment... law enforcement knew that they had to get him now because they were worried about what he may do next." (Kristen Thorne, 08:43 - 09:42)

4. Modus Operandi & Victimology

• [08:43, 13:56]
  • Victims often contacted on Craigslist, found similarly bound, naked, and assaulted.
  • Discussion of Heuermann's pattern of targeting vulnerable women (petite, often isolated), and evidence he may have been trolling for new victims.
  • Quote:

    "What it tells me is that he was constantly trolling for victims. And as a part of trolling for victims, he had this whole list of questions... Does she have family? ...Is going to make it more difficult to kidnap, sex assault her." (Dr. Bethany Marshall, 13:56)

5. Digital Evidence & Behavior

• [16:22]

  • Cybercrime expert Todd Shipley discusses over 300 subpoenas issued to access Heuermann's Google searches and digital records.

  • Heuermann’s disturbing search history included extreme and violent pornography, true crime forums, and research into how law enforcement could track calls and burner phones.

  • Quote:

    "The searches were evident: looking for information about the case. He was trying to find out what the law enforcement agencies knew about him and what they were divulging online." (Todd Shipley, 16:22)

  • Nancy breaks down the searches for jurors' perspectives, emphasizing their incriminating specificity.

  • Quote:

    "Why could law enforcement not trace calls made by Long Island serial killer? I mean, who would know to ask that particular question? Except for the Long Island serial killer." (Nancy Grace, 17:13)

6. DNA & Forensic Breakthroughs

• The Pizza Crust & The Hairs

  • DNA taken from Heuermann’s discarded pizza crust matched unidentified hairs on multiple victims [26:17].
    Quote:

    "The smoking gun was a pizza crust. Police dug through Heuermann's trash, matching DNA from a partially eaten slice to previously unidentified hairs found on three of the Gilgo victims." (News Segment, 26:17)

  • Additional DNA evidence includes his wife’s and daughter's hair detected on several victims, suggesting possible victim contact in the family home or transfer from shared environments.

  • Experts debate the possible transfer scenarios:

    • Routine hair shedding and transfer (vehicle, home, etc.).
    • The potential that victims were brought to his house in his family's absence.

  • Quote:

    "Every contact leaves a trace. And it's—it is the cornerstone that we work from in forensics.” (Joe Scott Morgan, 29:29)

  • The state's new nuclear DNA method performed by Astrophorensics, while challenged by the defense as "novel" in New York, was ultimately ruled admissible due to its acceptance nationwide [38:50].

  • On obtaining Heuermann’s DNA, Deputy Comm. Carter confirms:

    "He had discarded a, I guess like a small personal pizza box into a garbage in the city. And our undercovers were able to retrieve that box." (Anthony Carter, 40:26)

  • Wife's DNA was obtained from “recycled cans” [42:36-42:55].

    "Very similar fashion where we were able to obtain recycled cans from their local, you know, from where they live." (Anthony Carter, 42:53)

7. Geolocation, Burner Phones, and Surveillance

• [43:23–44:29]

  • The task force triangulated his location and phone use, connecting burner phone communications to his home, work, and other significant places.

  • Quote:

    "They found no instance where the suspect was in a separate location from the other cell phones when the communications occurred, when he was talking to them from the burner phones." (Todd Shipley, 43:59)

  • Surveillance efforts involved painstaking analysis in a densely populated area ("an area of over 1500 homes") [44:38].

8. What’s Next: More Evidence, More Victims?

• [22:06-23:29, 45:38]

  • Panelists agree there are likely more victims (“there are more victims”), and discuss ongoing efforts to match Heuermann’s DNA to other unsolved cases across the tri-state area.

  • Storage Unit Search: New investigation underway regarding a storage unit possibly containing victim’s belongings—especially jewelry or personal items known to have been missing [45:38].

  • Ongoing examination of all case evidence, including searching the family home “down to the studs” [33:10].

  • Quote:

    "The investigation. The task force is going to remain intact and they are going to continue gathering evidence in both with Rex. And the Gilgo Beach investigation is far from over." (Anthony Carter, 25:00)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nancy, on the importance of the task force:

  "If not for this newly formed task force ... this guy would still be walking free and I guarantee you would still be killing." (04:55)

• On the digital trail:

  "I mean who would know to ask that particular question? Except for the Long Island serial killer." (17:13)

• Joe Scott Morgan on forensic principle:

  "Every contact leaves a trace." (29:29)

• On psychological profile and escalation:

  "His victim profile is going to keep changing as he goes to more and more extreme types of pornography... This is not a one and done kind of guy... This is a guy who's going to get as much sexual satisfaction out of any one victim as possible." (Dr. Bethany Marshall, 35:35)

• On the DNA ruling & future prosecution:

  "This is a major bombshell for the state in this case. ... The staggering number of bodies found is going to overwhelm any juror. But it's the truth, and you cannot hide the truth from a jury. We wait as justice unfolds." (Nancy Grace, 46:21)

---

Timeline of Critical Segments

• [01:05] – Nancy Grace introduces the DNA ruling as the episode’s focus.
• [03:36] – Overview of the Gilgo Beach case and victim profile.
• [05:55] – Law enforcement describes the task force and their approach.
• [08:43] – Importance of getting Heuermann off the streets discussed.
• [13:56] – Psychological insights into Heuermann’s “trolling” for victims.
• [16:22] – Technical explanation of the significance of Heuermann’s search history.
• [17:13] – Nancy Grace details chilling specifics of the Google searches.
• [26:17] – The pizza crust DNA match explained.
• [29:29] – The forensic "every contact leaves a trace" principle.
• [33:10] – Discussion about tearing apart Heuermann’s house for evidence.
• [38:50] – Legal arguments about the new DNA method and court’s ruling.
• [40:26] – Details on catching Heuermann’s DNA from discarded pizza.
• [43:23] – Technology and strategy behind phone and tower surveillance.
• [45:38] – New leads: storage unit possibly containing victim's belongings.
• [46:21] – Reflecting on the impact of the DNA evidence and the case going forward.

---

Tone & Style

Nancy Grace retains her signature urgent, dramatic delivery, mixing prosecutorial precision with emotional commentary and advocacy for victims. Guest experts provide clear, technical explanations for non-legal listeners while investigative reporters share on-the-ground updates and human stories.

---

Summary Takeaways

• The admissibility of advanced DNA evidence is a turning point in the prosecution of Rex Heuermann.
• The task force’s multi-agency cooperation, digital and real-world surveillance, and forensic innovation were key to breaking the case.
• There is profound concern and speculation that Heuermann may be linked to even more unidentified victims.
• The chilling overlap of digital searches, psychological escalation, and physical evidence may overwhelm any jury.
• With the investigation ongoing, the panel stresses vigilance for new victims and evidence as the search for justice continues.

---

Transcript

[A]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[B]

The detective said missing kids usually come home. What happens when they don't?

[C]

Based on a true story.

[A]

Police looking for John Gacy.

[D]

We discovered bodies.

[A]

By the looks of it, they're younger men.

[D]

The things he did to those kids.

[A]

He's sick. The system bailed these families. Devil in disguise. John Wayne Gacy. Streaming now only on Peacock. Do you know how many there are?

[C]

Up to you to find out.

[E]

Big color, bigger savings. It's Sherwin Williams biggest super sale. Get 40% off paints and stains. October 17th through the 27th with prices starting at $29.39. Whether you're refreshing your interior or exterior, we've got the colors to bring your vision to life. And with delivery, getting everything to your door is easier than ever. Shop online to have it delivered or visit your neighborhood Sherwin Williams store. Click the banner to learn more. Retail sales, only some exclusions applies. E Store for details. Delivery available on qualifying orders.

[A]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Well, it's Friday night and it's time for a Friday night special. And let me tell you, it's special. Rex Heuermann is accused of being the Long island serial killer. And in the last days, a bombshell, a Gilgo beach case bombshell blows up in the courtroom as the judge issues a ruling on using DNA evidence at the accused serial killers trial. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. The judge has ruled damning DNA evidence tying Rex Heuerman to the murders of multiple women whose remains found buried near Gilgo beach lined up like a cemetery will be allowed in trial. Repeat will be allowed in trial. This is a major ruling. This is really the only way this case can be proven. There are no eyewitnesses, there are no confessions. We need that DNA to prove this case. In a very brief court hearing, New York State Supreme Court Justice Timothy Mezai rules the critical DNA evidence using new DNA technology will be admissible. This is a major blow to humans defense. What exactly do we know about the murders? Rex Heuerman, a very well respected architect, now behind bars in the deaths of many women connected in time in location, many of them sex workers, all of them daughters, mothers, sisters, girlfriends. We've waited a long time for this day to come. For the Long island serial killer to be unmasked for the devil that he is. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and SiriusXM111. Take a listen to this.

[F]

It is one of the most baffling serial murder cases in modern American history centered on this lonely stretch of sand on the south shore of Long Island, N.Y. gilgo Beach. A small community with a big mystery on its hands. The bodies of 15 brutally murdered young women. And there seems to be a pattern. Many of them under 5ft tall and less than 100 pounds. All dumped in the surrounding dunes. Over a period of 20 years, there's.

[G]

Been some new developments in the Gilgo investigation.

[C]

Last night, a little bit around 8:30pm.

[G]

In the vicinity of 35th and 5th Avenue in the city, members assigned to the Gilgo beach task force did place.

[A]

One individual under arrest.

[D]

After years of searching and years of true crime hobbyists and their theories.

[A]

Rex, did you do it?

[D]

Turned out the suspected Gilgo beach killer was hiding in plain sight the whole time. 59 year old Rex Heuerman, a suburban husband, father of two, and cops say.

[G]

The demon that walks among us. A predator that ruined families.

[A]

If not for the members of this.

[D]

Task force.

[A]

He would still be on the streets today. You darn right. If not for this newly formed task force instituted by the new elected District attorney, this guy would still be walking free and I guarantee you would still be killing. And I've got facts to support that theory. You were just hearing our friends at Crime Watch, Daily WABC 7 and the Suffolk County Police Commissioner, Rodney Harrison. With me, an all star panel. But first I want to go to a special guest joining us, Anthony M. Carter. This is the deputy Police Commissioner in Suffolk County. Deputy Commissioner. Man, it's been a long time coming. I want to hear your reaction to the arrest of a prominent architect. A father, a husband. It's kind of hard to believe, but you guys have known for some time and keeping it on the down low what was happening because you had intel this guy was watching the police's every move.

[D]

Yeah, it has. It's been for over a year now. Something that we've been working on, working on tirelessly. And it really, you know, it all began when Commissioner Harrison took office here at the Suffolk County Police Department. And one of his top priorities was the Gilgo beach investigation. And he had a vision, as you know, the former Chief of Detectives of the nypd, former Chief of department and the experience that he had. One of the things he knew is that we needed to get a fresh look at the case and we needed to get our law enforcement partners involved. And Commissioner Harrison created this task force, called it the Gilgo Beach Task Force. And it comprised of investigators from the state police, the, the District Attorney's office, the sheriff's department.

[A]

You know, you cut out on me right there for a second, but I think you said the FBI. And in the past, before the new regime, there was a lot of resistance to bringing in the FBI. But when you've got women dying, going missing, and now all these bodies turning up unsolved, hey, you know what? I'm happy for all the help I can get every single day. So I just congratulate you and your Commissioner Harrison on this arrest. And it was. It was a joint effort. And, you know, I like that about you and your boss. You don't try to hog the limelight or say it's all about you. You really always give the credit to everyone involved. And, you know, standing by right now, Kristen Thorne is with me. Very well known investigative Reporter, ABC Channel 7 Eyewitness News, host of Hulu's new crime show, Missing. Kristen, it's great to have you. And you have stood by you and I both have plotted around there at the beach, looking for clues, trying to find answers. Can you believe we finally got an arrest? And I gotta tell you, Kristen, just in time. Because this POS technical legal term was just caught on camera at a cell phone store, paying in cash, from what I can tell, for more burner phone minutes. That's his M.O. you want to tell me this guy's out of business? O H, E, double L, N. Oh, he's still at it, Kristen.

[B]

Yeah, Nancy, and I think that's what's really scary about this entire situation and why law enforcement decided it was time. Look, they wanted to have Maureen Brainard Barnes included in this indictment. And she is absolutely mentioned in this indictment.

[A]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on, lady. Back it up. You're going warp 4 before we can get there. There's so many bodies. But you often hear of the Gilgo 4. Correct me if I'm wrong, Kristen, but you are correct. The Gilgo 4 were all found in burlap bags, similarly bound, naked, having been sex assaulted. Which really links them together. Right? Now, this architect, this dad, this husband, is charged with six counts, three murders, three felony murder charges, three. Three second degree murder charges on three victims. But it's just a matter of days, I believe, before he's charged with the fourth. Then we got to deal with all the other dead bodies. But you refer to a woman, Brainerd Barnes. Maureen brainerd Barnes, age 25. He's the prime suspect. And she's number four in the Gilgo Four. Did I make that clear?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Go Ahead.

[B]

Yes. And so the, the law enforcement knew that they had to get him now because they were worried about what he may do next. What he was looking on his phone.

[A]

I mean, creepy dude, Kristen. Creepy dude. You know, my daughter and my son, they'll see, they're just 15. They'll see somebody and go, okay, that's a creepy dude right there. Tell us, Kristin, about this creepy dude going up to a woman in a park setting in the last couple of months and completely skeeving her out.

[B]

He was walking around and she was in the woods. It's a nice wooded park in Massapequa Park. And she was walking around and he, as she says, came up behind him and was asking about her boyfriend. And you know, he's a very big man.

[A]

6 4. Hey, what do you put him at? Anthony Carter. Guys, I'm speaking to Anthony Carter, but he is the deputy police commissioner. I mean, I'm acting like I'm sitting here having a cup of coffee with this guy. He's been on this from the get go since he came in and they formed a new task force. How much does this guy weigh? What you put him at? 240?

[D]

Yeah, I mean, he's a, he's a very large individual, I would definitely say. Yeah, right around there, around that 240 pound mark. Very, just, very, just an oversized, you know, very large man. And you know. Yeah, I mean, I know Everybody's seen that YouTube video, you know, and where he's towering over the person that's conducting the interview with him.

[A]

Yeah, Nothing like that. Dr. Bethany Marshall. To make your first move on a lady to try to get a date is to sneak up behind her at a, at a park and start asking about her boyfriend. It reminds me of Brian Coburger.

[F]

It starts like any other night. The glass of red, the cozy blanket, then the drop. The stain's so dark, so stubborn, it might as well have been a crime scene. But this isn't your average couch. This is Anna Bay. Fully washable, unspeakably comfortable, and ready for whatever your life, your kids or your ex throws at it. And here's the kicker. Starting at just 699, you can make sure your sofa isn't part of the problem. Fully washable, stain resistant, and built to hide even the darkest defenses. Right now, get up to 60% off because no one should have to live with a stain that won't quit. Annabe the only mystery you won't be losing sleep over shop washablesofas.com today. That's washablesofas.com hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[A]

Now I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk. Crazy weather we're having. No, it's not. It's just weather.

[D]

It is an introvert's dream.

[A]

Give it a [e-mail] switch upfront.

[E]

Came in a $45 per 3 month plan, $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[A]

See Mint mobile.com crime stories with Nancy Grace. In the last days of New York State Supreme Court justice rules damning DNA evidence tying Rex Heuerman to the murders of many women whose remains were found near Gilgo beach will come here into trial and just think about it. These are the bodies we know about. Are there other bodies? I would be very surprised if there were not. Bethany Marshall with me, renowned psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills at drbethonymarshall.com Kohberger would go up to women at bars and go, hey, what's your home address and phone number? Of course, the women would run as if they had seen a monster rearing its ugly head. Like this guy. You go up to a woman in a park, sneak up behind her and go, hey, who's your boyfriend?

[B]

I would run, Anthony. What it tells me is that he was constantly trolling for victims. And as a part of trolling for victims, he had this whole list of questions. I mean, number one would be, hey, do you have a boyfriend who's your boyfriend? The reason for that is who is he going to have to separate the woman from? Does she have family? Does she have people who's interested in her and if so, is going to make it more difficult to kidnap, sex assault her. Secondly, he's looking for women who are quite short, who are petite, women he can easily handle, easily kidnap and transport from one area to another. And then he actually probably has many other aspects of his victim profile that are going to come out during the course of this investigation, especially as it pertains to his online searches, maybe underage kids. Twinks was one of the things I heard.

[A]

Hi, what was the last thing you said?

[B]

Twinks.

[A]

You need to tell everybody what that means.

[B]

Okay. A twink is a young man who looks very feminine, usually underweight, very small, and the old fashioned word for them is twink. So that was one of his victim profiles that he was looking for was these kinds of young men.

[A]

Hey, guys, this includes you. Kristen Thorne, Toby Wilson, Todd Shipley, Joe Scott Morgan, Deputy Commissioner Carter, Dr. Bethany John Ray, the lawyer for the family of Shannon Gilbert. She may not be connected to Huberman. We don't know that yet. But it's because of her that all of these bodies were found. She's dead. She was killed there on Long island. And I believe it hadn't been for her body being discovered, we may never have found the other bodies. That said, everybody jump whenever you have a thought, but you hear Dr. Bethany Marshall correctly describing the fact of these Google searches we have just learned about. The police, of course, knew about it. With me, Todd Shipley, cybercrime expert, author of Investigating Internet Crimes. You can find [e-mail] Todd, just follow up, please, with what Dr. Bethany just said about this guy's perverted Google searches. I'm sure you've seen them, right?

[G]

Sure. I think what's important is the fact that that was available once they identified the suspect and they were able to go to Google and subpoena them because they did over 300 subpoenas early on. So there's a lot of information that we still don't know about yet. But once they started looking at this guy, it was pretty evident that he was the one, because the searches were evident looking for information about the case. He was trying to find out what the law enforcement agencies knew about him and what they were divulging online and how much information was there and he was doing, you know, his dating and all the other things that go along with what was happening. So it was pretty apparent, you know, once they started looking at his searches that this was a person of interest for them. And it's pretty telling that there's that much information about us when we start thinking about, you know, evidence online and what we do.

[A]

You know what, that's perfectly put, but if I were putting this to a jury, I'd say it's something more like blonde girl crying being raped, Black slave girl being raped. America's five most notorious old cases. Why hasn't Long island serial killer been caught? Why could law enforcement not trace calls made by Long island serial killer? I mean, who would know to ask that particular question? Except for the Long island serial killer.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

I mean, when I would think about the Long island serial killer, I would have so many thoughts, so many questions. But I didn't know at the time because people like Deputy Commissioner Anthony Carter kept it so secretary as he should have I didn't know about the use of burner phones. Well, somebody did. This guy was looking up, why can't they trace his burner phones?

[G]

No, I mean that's specifically what they ended up doing. Because if you look at how they started to pieces together, which was brilliant by the agents that were involved, they and officers, they started to find those pieces and they started to relate to, you know, proven the negative, who was around those burner phones when they had the geolocation that they had from 10 years ago. And so the fact they went back and looked at all that evidence and started to prove that the target was close by, you know, those same phone calls was a brilliant move to prove that he did it. And then they were able to go back after, you know, his phones himself and starting to look at what's there. Now what's going to be interesting too is the digital evidence that they find in the search of his house. I can't wait to see what they found in his computer because that's going.

[A]

To be telling to other searches. And I want to go to John Ray, the family lawyer for victim Shannon Gilbert. I know that Shannon's family has been tortured, especially when they see this guy's searches which say things like blonde haired girl, young depressed teen girl, oiled bodies, nude slave girls. I have to leave out some of this because even I wouldn't say it. Blank shot and crying porn girl, hogtied torture porn, skinny redhead, tied up porn. Short fat girl, tied up porn. Tied up and raped porn as Dr. Bethany pouring it out. Asian twink, tied up porn, tied slave, force fed. Okay, I'm not going to finish that one. I mean, teen girl begging for rape porn, Pretty girl with bruised face porn. My mouth feels filthy, I need to go wash it out with soap. This was what is on his Google searches. John Ray. Now Shannon's family has to read this and only imagine what Shannon may have or the other victims put up with, what they endured, what they lived through before they died. I want to vomit.

[H]

I can play. Everybody does. I think this, this, this monster, this giant monster who I characterize as Tyrannosaurus rex. His image is now frozen in the minds of the Gilbert family. And I also represent Jessica Taylor's family. And the same, they have the same reaction.

[A]

20 year old Jessica Taylor also found there along the beach. Go ahead.

[D]

Yeah.

[H]

And these families have this image now that's frozen in their mind that he is a killer. There's no way to be sure that he had anything to do with Shannon Gilbert at this Point we're looking hard at that, but as we speak. But you know, just the image itself of what happened and when you take what we do know of what happened to Shannon that the night that early morning that she disappeared, we know that she was under a threat from somebody like him, either he himself or somebody like him. And there is probably more than one of them.

[G]

But.

[H]

We'Re still very optimistic now and delighted that Ray Tierney, the district attorney, and Rodney Harrison, the police commissioner finally made put together the agencies that weren't working together so that this can be done. So we're looking forward. We think that there's a really good chance that Tyrannosaurus rex killed the others as well because he was a hunter and hunters, he was a proficient hunter. They have tools and they take apart their animals. So he's certainly capable of having dismembered these others that are there.

[A]

So of course, and you know, another issue, Kristen Thorne joining me, investigative reporter, ABC star of Hulu's True Crime show, Missing. Kristen, just because he ran out of burlap bags, okay, that does not mean he's not connected to all the other bodies. And I'm telling you, Kristen, there are more victims. There are more victims.

[B]

You know, Nancy, I think what concerns me and what has kept me up at night the last few days since this happened is not necessarily, of course, the remains that are still left to the six other remains there along Ocean Parkway on Long Island. But it's the women we haven't heard about yet. Right. So in some of the cases I've covered in my show, I had some concerns and I do hope that they will be using some of the DNA evidence that they have to look at some of these other women who have disappeared in the Tri State area who I believe and their family believes were victims of violence. One in particular who was worked in the same line of work as the other women. And so that's what concerns me. Who is out there, the women or anybody else? Because we haven't yet identified his profile. Right. We know about the Gilgo 4, but we, we don't know who else he may have been interested in killing or where his interest, quote, unquote lie. Can I make a comment about that?

[A]

Yeah, jump in. But I need to go to Anthony Carter about what they're doing right now. Bethany, hold on just a moment. Deputy Commissioner Carter, I pray to God in heaven that this new task force, and I'm sure you're not going to tell me, is comparing his DNA to every other DNA that's been Found and let's just say the Tri State area, because once these bodies were discovered, you know, he found another dumping ground. All right, Comparing his DNA, looking at who else he's been calling on his many, many, many burner phones and figuring out where he was seen. And that Chevy Avalanche, which I want to ask you, Deputy Commissioner, I happen to know that the Avalanche discontinued manufacturer in 2013. Yet here's an Avalanche parked outside his place, I believe a relative's place. An Avalanche was seen at one of the victim's homes. Let me think. I believe it's Amber Costello. Long story short, I can go on and on and on about. Wow. Here's the Avalanche parked outside his home, a few miles away from where the bodies are found. And a witness places an Avalanche at one of the victim's homes. How come it took so long? But that is something for me to chew apart on another day. Just, I want to know that his DNA is being compared to other DNA, especially in that Tri State area.

[D]

No, and that's a great. That's a great question. And the one thing that maybe some, some out there may think that, you know, the arrest was made, we arrested this subject that the task force has, you know, concluded their investigation. And we're just going to go ahead and just look at Rex, the, the investigation. The task force is going to remain intact and they are going to continue gathering evidence in both with Rex. And the Go Go beach investigation is far from over. And.

[A]

Okay, I'm going to take that as a yes. Even though you're not saying yes, I'm taking it as a yes to say.

[D]

To examine every piece of evidence. That's right, though. Absolutely.

[A]

Speaking of every piece of evidence, let's take a look at it. We can talk about the MO that all the women were, many of them contacted on Craigslist. They were sex workers. They were found dead in the same way. Physical similarities. All these four put in burlap bags, disposed of on a lonely stretch of beach about 20 plus minutes away from his home at Massapequa Park. But what about the evidence? The hard evidence? Take a listen to our cut 3G. Our friends at ABC 7.

[D]

Prosecutors say the smoking gun was a pizza crust. Police dug through Heuerman's trash, matching DNA from a partially eaten slice to previously unidentified hairs found on three of the Gilgo victims. Today they booked Heuerman on murder charges. Accused in the deaths of Melissa Bartholomew, Megan Waterman and Amberlynn Costello. And he's a prime suspect in the death of a fourth, Maureen Brainerd. Barnes.

[A]

Okay, let's talk about the hard DNA evidence. Evidence from a hair. One of those hairs was found at the bottom of one of the burlap bags that one of the victims were discarded in. Also apparently, and correct me if I'm wrong, jump on it. Kirsten Thorne. Three victims had the defendant's wife's hair on them. Obviously a transfer from her to him and from him onto the victim. So that's at least four pieces of DNA that we know of. Then one of the victims is tied up with a leather belt. Hopefully, maybe DNA touch DNA was taken off of that. Am I missing any DNA, Kristen?

[B]

No, that sounds. Okay, that is absolutely correct, but I would love to talk about the wife's hair.

[A]

Sure. Because I've got a professor of forensics with me and a forensic consultant specializing in DNA waiting to jump on this because this. This is going to get him in addition to all of the circumstantial evidence. Tell me, Kristen, here's my.

[B]

Here's my question. And I would love to hear from you, Nancy, and from your experts to me, finding the wife's hair on one victim would have been interesting to find it on three. I'm trying to actually, you know, when you try to think, how does this happen? How does the wife's hair end up on each time? And again, I am not implying anything about her. I'm trying to actually go through how this happened. Does anybody have any thoughts on that?

[A]

I've got a thought, but I'll bring in the experts. A transfer, just like. Okay, just a few minutes ago, right before we went to air, my co worker, Sydney, handed me a big stack of papers to go through about three minutes before we started. And she leaned over me with her long blonde hair, and I turned. I guarantee you some piece of hair or some. Something brushed up against my jacket and it's there. Okay. You know who loves talking about this? Joe Scott Morgan. He loves. What's your. You have some quote you always start with. Why I. Okay, I'll let you tell it. Joe Scott Morgan, with me, professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University. And I've got to tell you, I've been to their Crimpro building and facilities. That's an incredible program. Jo Scott, author of Blood Beneath My Feet and host of a hit series, Body Bags with Jo Scott Morgan. Go ahead. No action. Doesn't leave a trace.

[C]

What's the rest of that lecardes principle? Every contact leaves a trace. And it's. It is the cornerstone that we work from in forensics. And it's it's. That axiom is over a hundred years old and it still applies.

[A]

Tell it, Joe Scott. Preach it. Preach it, brother. Because this guy is going down because of this DNA. And when I think of these computer searches and him acting out those horrible, horrible, evil computer searches, all of these ladies, to hell with him. Now I got to figure out a way to prove it. Hit it.

[C]

Let me give you a hellscape here. And I think that it exists in that house. And, and this is my, my supposition here. You know, we were speaking just a moment ago about the transfer of the wife's hair. You know, you, you mentioned Sydney in the studio. What, what's, what space do you guys share? Probably on a daily basis when you're, you're laying down sound, it's in that studio. Okay, so within that environment, you, you kind of coexist in that environment. I am very curious, Nancy, relative to the accused, were any of these victims brought back to this home?

[A]

That's such a good idea, Joe Scott, because remember Joe Scott, many of these. And jump in Anthony Carter, Deputy Commissioner, and Kristin Thorne, because you may know better than Joe Scott and I. Many of these murders occurred while his wife was gone. And she has very distinct hair. She is Icelandic. So her DNA is going to be very identifiable. And this is mitochondrial DNA, which comes from your mother only. So anybody jump in with a thought? Bethany, I promise I'm circling back.

[H]

This is Toby.

[G]

First of all, the hair. I was a forensic hair examiner for a short time. Also, the average person that has hair loses about 100 hairs a day randomly. So the hair connection on just the one victim would be coincident. Could be called coincidence. On three victims, it becomes more of a pattern. But the locations of the hairs, because of that, if she rode in the avalanche, if it was on his clothing, if he took any of the victims home, all those are reasonable explanations for where the hairs that the DNA was done on came from because of the fact that we lose hair so easily. So that connection, you know, is, is more into, open to interpretation where you come from it. It's very probable because he transported them or may have transported them in the avalanche, that the hairs were, were on him or in that vehicle, and that's where the transfer occurred. Or if the be, you know, if the burlap bags came from his home, they could have been transferred there. But air transfers are a common thing and you know, it makes it harder to interpret what's going on because of how common it is.

[A]

But I agree with you. You're hearing Toby Wilson, forensic consultant specializing in DNA serology, [e-mail] well, he's right, of course. Joe Scott Morgan but three hairs, as Kristin Thorne pointed out, each one on a different victim. I want to explore your theory that these victims may have been taken to his home. I mean, when you've got three hairs on three different victims, the only thing the defense can do now is an O.J. defense. It was planted. I mean, let me hear your theory.

[C]

JOE SCOTT well, this is one thing that I'm very encouraged by and that these folks are doing is that I saw these images on the news of the police, the investigators going in and out of that home. And Nancy, I hope they retain this place and take it down to the damn studs that everything that they can harvest out of that environment from an evidentiary standpoint is going to be acquired. Here's one more thing and I'll be quiet.

[A]

I don't want you to be quiet. I love everything you're saying.

[C]

It's something that really sent a chill up my, up my spine and maybe it's, maybe it's a wild goose chase. But this one victim, I was looking at this charging document that's mentioned the Maureen, Ms. Maureen Brainerd Barnes. And one thing that of sent a chill up my spine was that this burner phone that the accused had, or that he is alleged to have had, had contacts with Maureen's phone 16 times, Nancy, over a period of time from July 6th through July 9th. Okay. They have her phone finally dropping off the face for a while and there's like a couple of days lag in there. But then here's the chilling part. He, apparently the perpetrator opened her phone up again and began to check her messages. Let me ask you something, Nancy. Would you just blindly give, without any kind of fighting back, would you give somebody the code to your cell phone to check your messages? I mean, I know I, I wouldn't. I don't know about the other folks on the panel, but how did he get that information from her in order to get in to her voicemail to check it? If that is true, what they're alleging. And that to me is chilling. That to me shows that he may have been in control of that person in particular about the rest of them, I have no idea.

[A]

Well, all you've got to do is look at his Google searches, Joe Scott and figure and, and I can tell you, I mean, he looks up a hog tying, raping woman. Obviously he is fixated on torture. I mean, Dr. Bethany Marshall, you don't see that kind of Google search every day. And I've looked at plenty of people's computers in their searches.

[B]

No, absolutely not. And to frame our discussion, if you think of this guy as a combination of an obsessive sex addict who thrives off power and inflicting pain in order to enhance his sexual arousal, his victim profile is going to keep changing as he goes to more and more extreme types of pornography and more different types of victims in order to enhance the sexual arousal. So maybe he starts with someone within his own race, an age mate, then he goes to a younger person, then a smaller person than a bigger person than a man, then a woman, then a child. And so I think that the complication and why the investigation is going to have to focus so much on the data and the science is this guy is going to find anything in order to increase his sexual arousal. And not just finding different victims, but stalking them, toying with them, perhaps taking them back to his house. This is not a one and done kind of guy where maybe someone looks at pornography, masturbates, closes the computer. This is a guy who's going to get as much sexual satisfaction out of any one victim as possible. So it's multiple assaults against one victim over an extended period of time, which.

[A]

Goes back to Joe Scott Morgan's theory that some of the victims may have been taken to the home because an extended period of time assault probably would not take place in a vehicle, I. E. The Chevy Avalanche.

[F]

It starts like any other night. The glass of red, the cozy blanket, then the drop. The stain so dark, so stubborn, it might as well have been a crime scene. But this isn't your average couch. This is anabe. Fully washable, unspeakably comfortable and ready for whatever your life, your kids or your ex throws at it. And here's the kicker. Starting at just 6:99, you can make sure your sofa isn't part of the problem. Fully washable, stain resistant, and built to hide even the darkest defenses. Right now, get up to 60% off because no one should have to live with a stain that won't quit. Annabe the only mystery you won't be losing sleep over shop. Washablesofas.com today, that's washablesofas.com.

[E]

Big color, bigger savings. It's Sherwin Williams biggest super sale. Get 40% off paints and stains October 17th through the 27th with print price is starting at $29.39. Whether you're refreshing your interior or exterior, we've got the colors to bring your vision to life. And with delivery, getting everything to your door is easier than ever. Shop online to have it delivered or visit your neighborhood Sherwin Williams store. Click the banner to learn more. Retail sales only some exclusions apply. C Store for details. Delivery available on qualifying orders.

[A]

Crime stores with Nancy Grace. This bombshell DNA ruling comes after a series of fry hearings where the state and the defense argued over a new method of analyzing DNA used to link Heuerman, the architect and married father, to the murders of seven women. It's an advanced nuclear DNA test carried out by a California based lab, Astrophorensics, and it identified hairs on six of the seven victims as belonging to Heuermann's now ex wife, Asa Ellerup, their daughter Victoria Heuermann, and another person connected to the suspected serial killer. The defense argued the technique should be excluded because it had never been used in New York. The state responded, it's been used widely across our country. Maybe not here in New York, but all across the country. It's been used and it is accepted by the scientific community. Of course, Yuerman sat there and gave no reaction. I wonder if, while the defense and prosecution argue about DNA evidence found on the bodies, if he's actually thinking about the bodies and how they got buried at Gilgo Beach. Deputy Commissioner, I don't know if you can comment on this, but can you describe how his DNA was obtained off.

[D]

A pizza crust during surveillance? You know, he was being observed, and there was an opportunity where he had discarded a, I guess like a small personal pizza box into a garbage in the city. And our undercovers were able to retrieve that box. And just to go back on. On a point to, you know, whether, you know, his home may have been involved in the location of, of the. The homicides, the one thing that we can say is that it's not a coincidence that his wife and family were away in three of the murders. And we're taking, you know, like I said, active investigation. We're at the home. I think somebody had mentioned on the call here that we're taking the house. We should take the house. And I think that is the plan to, you know, get every piece of evidence that we can possibly get while we're inside of that home.

[A]

With me, Deputy Commissioner Anthony Carter from Suffolk County Police. I gotta tell you something, Deputy Commissioner. I'm the first one to scream when police screw up an investigation because it hurts me as a former prosecutor and a crime victim myself, but I am so impressed with your surveillance of Heuerman. Your identification of him. I know it's been a long time coming, but this is a fresh homicide task force. This is a whole new look because this case was ignored by prior administrations. You guys come in there like a barn on fire. You find this guy, you surveil him, you re look at the evidence. Then you catch him discarding a pizza crust and get his DNA, which matches up to other DNA. You get his wife's DNA. Do we have any idea. Can you comment on how you did that, Deputy Commissioner?

[D]

So same, you know, same methodology in trying to obtain abandonment samples, you know, very similar fashion where we were able to obtain recycled cans from their local, you know, from where they live.

[A]

So that's how you got the wife's DNA?

[D]

That's correct.

[A]

Wow, there's so much, I hardly know which way to go. But let me understand something. Kristin Thorne, anybody on the panel that knows the answer to this, the way I'm reading the affidavit and other information, was this idiot actually traveling with a burner phone and his own private mobile phone together? Like Kohberger, you know, you can see him traveling away from the crime scene. Did that happen? Does anybody know?

[B]

Well, we know that they certainly. There are. They certainly track the burner phone's relationship and location near Massapequa park, as well as his midtown office. And they called that the box. That was the four. The points that they used to triangulate, although in that word, it would be three sides, but the box would be four to really, you know, pinpoint that his locations, where he was, where he lives, where he worked, were also coordinating with the hits from these burner phones.

[A]

Okay, break that down to regular people talk.

[G]

This is Todd. So I think what's significant is what she's saying and what they alleged in the court documents is that they found no instance where the suspect was in a separate location from the other cell phones when the communications occurred, when he was talking to them from the burner phones. And so that's significant that they tied them together from those. So tower records that his phone was there and the burner phone was there. In instances outside of the calls, his phone, you know, was. Was not there. So it's pretty significant.

[A]

Okay, that is entirely significant to Anthony Carter, deputy police commissioner. What do you make of that theory?

[D]

So, you know, I think when we talk about some of the locations that we talked about, you know, the burner phones versus his phone and trying to tie that all in, I think it was, you know, it was challenging because we look, we're looking at an area of over 1500 homes that also included a portion of the Massapequa Preserve. And that also then opens up, which are hitting those cell towers to people that may or may not even live in Massapequa, may or may not even live in Nassau County. So, I mean, that is one of the things behind the exhaustive effort committed by the members of the task force to try to drill down and get the. The right information so that and the right evidence to, you know, move us forward in the case.

[A]

Kristen Thorne, WABC Channel 7. What can you tell me about recent revelations of a storage unit search?

[B]

So we know that there is an active investigation right now around a storage unit on Long Island. And for all we know, and we believe that it is connected to this investigation. You know, I think what they're going to be looking for, and I also noticed in the indictment, and we talk about his house and how they do need to and are going to tear apart that house, there were items missing from the victims, so jewelry, some pieces of clothing. Those are things that would probably be familiar to the family, that the family told them she used to always wear this necklace, this bracelet. That's very common, we find. And so those things were missing. And so those are the things that they're going to be looking for in the house and in this potential storage unit.

[A]

This is rapidly developing. But for right now, ASA Ellerup, the ex wife, continues to insist Heuermann her husband is innocent. She sat in the public gallery flanked by her own fleet of attorneys and quickly flounced out of the courtroom. When the hearing came to an end, the daughter, Victoria was absent. Now, remember, as some of her hairs that are found on the dead bodies wonder how that went down. Who wants to know? Their hair is on multiple dead bodies buried on Gilgo Beach. In a linking Rex Heuerman to the dead bodies at Gilgo Beach. Seven dead bodies that we know of will be allowed in. Interesting. It's not his hair. It's his wife and his daughter's hair found on the dead bodies. That tells me a lot. That tells me the women were there in the home, possibly when they were raped and murdered or stored there before they were disposed. This is a major bombshell for the state in this case. A major ruling for the state. Can the state prove the case? Will the DNA be enough? The staggering number of bodies found is going to overwhelm any juror. But it's the truth, and you cannot hide the truth from a jury. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend.

[C]

All right.

[G]

Remember the machine knows if you're lying.

[C]

First statement.

[G]

Carvana will give you a real offer on your car. All online.

[F]

False.

[A]

True. Actually, sell your car in minutes.

[C]

False.

[F]

That's gotta be true again.

[A]

Carvana will pick up your car from your door.

[G]

Or you can drop it off at.

[A]

One of their car vending machines. Sounds too good to be true.

[F]

So true.

[A]

Finally caught on. Nice job. Honesty isn't just their policy. It's their entire model. Sell your car today too, Carvana.

[G]

Pickup fees may apply.

[A]

This is an iHeart podcast.