Nancy Grace (2:43)

Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news. Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie Missing Day 17 Is she alive? Is she dead? Is she suffering from. Where is she? Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. A lot happening in the search for Nancy Guthrie. I want to go straight out to a special guest joining us. Andrew Black is with us. Former special agent in charge of the Tucson office of the FBI. Let that sink in. Former FBI agent in charge of the Tucson FBI Division. 27 years with the FBI. Former Chicago felony prosecutor. Never a lack of business in Chicago. Currently chief of the University of Hawaii Department of Public Safety. Andrew Black. Thank you for being with us. I'm sure you're going to put this in more flowery terms than myself, but did Nanas go rogue again and issue another statement without consulting with the FBI? I'm not saying getting their permission. I'm saying consulting with.

Andrew Black (4:03)

You know the press release that went out yesterday regarding the exonerating the Guthrie family that was put out unilaterally without input from the FBI. If you read the language, it's oddly written. Begging the media to honor their profession and begging them to report with compassion and professionalism. That's an oddly worded press release. What I'd like to see is Sheriff Nanos deferring to the FBI for all communication going forward on this case. The FBI are very professional in their communication. They're well trained in dealing with the media and public and messaging coherently. The public needs to hear from the investigators on a regular basis. It should be done through the FBI to give confidence that the hard working agents and personnel, the sheriff's department are doing everything they can to try to locate Nancy Guthrie.

Nancy Grace (5:00)

I was very distressed, Andrew Black, when I heard, I'm sure another renegade press comment when Nanos blurted out it could take a year to find her. Yes, okay, she could be dead in a year. She's 84.

Andrew Black (5:17)

That's not.

Nancy Grace (5:18)

Why would he blurt that out? She could be found tomorrow. She could be found tonight. Why would he say that? It was like a kick to the teeth.

Andrew Black (5:26)

Yeah, it's demoralizing for people who are on the ground, even volunteers who are looking for her. So this is something I think that demonstrates a lack of experience and training in handling big matters like this. The FBI executives are well trained. They go through media training. They attend conferences with members of the media and they know how to message properly. That was those were some awkward statements.

Nancy Grace (5:50)

The reward is now up to $200,000 in exchange for information leading to Nancy Guthrie. A lot has happened in the past hour. Straight out to Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Dave, what's happening right now?

Dave Mack (6:05)

You mentioned the reward money going up. Michael Huppy, an attorney in Milwaukee who actually heads up Mil Milwaukee Crime Stoppers, he's the one that stepped up to add a hundred thousand dollars to the reward. That's for starters. Of all, you know, the DNA that we've been waiting for, results back from the lab in Florida. The on the we're talking about the glove that was found about a mile and a half from Nancy Guthrie's home. They did get that DNA into codis and there were no hits on the DNA found on the glove. They still they being law enforcement, still waiting on the DNA that was found inside Nancy Guthrie's home. We don't have status on that one yet. But the male DNA found on the glove did not have a hit when it was run through CODIS right now.

Nancy Grace (6:57)

Okay, hold on just a moment. Dave Mack, regarding the glove, we are also learning that the glove that had been pictured is not the glove that was tested. Explain.

Dave Mack (7:08)

Well, you know, the the glove that was pictured, it was from the New York Post. And you know, Nancy, a lot of people jump to kings based on what we see and what other reporters say. And none of it is official. It just gets picked up that way. And sometimes the news runs with a story without having firm footing underneath.

Nancy Grace (7:31)

Well, hold on just a moment before you back door trashing the New York Post, that was a photo of a glove found. That doesn't mean that it was the glove that was sent to be tested. So there's a subtle but important distinction right there. Okay, I want to go to what you just said, that they did retrieve male DNA from the glove that was sent for testing and they did not get a hit or on codis. All is not lost. Tammy Ballard joining us. DNA crime scene consultant, crime scene investigation reconstructionist, former DNA criminalist, D N A criminalist for San Diego's Police Department crime lab. Tammy, we may not have gotten a direct hit on codis, but there's so much more to be done. Explain.

Tammy Ballard (8:29)

We definitely checked the box, so that's the first thing that needed to be done. Maybe you get lucky that it somebody in the national database and now you work from there. So you're going to take more of the local state approach. It sounds like the state lab is now going to be retesting that glove. There's still additional items that are being analyzed by DNA Labs International in Florida. They're doing that in record timing. I'm imagining there's going to be mixtures they have to deal with. And so getting that good, clean data back out there for additional comparisons and database searches is going to be pretty much paramount.

Nancy Grace (9:11)

Question, why is the same DNA being tested in the Arizona labs?

Tammy Ballard (9:15)

Well, now, because the Florida lab and also with the FBI laboratory, they would not have been able to go into a state CODIS database and enter the data. They can only get to the national level. So, so now they've got to get that state lab to be able to test the data, get that into the CODIS database for the state level, and then they can also pursue things like familial testing, which you mentioned yesterday. So it's a multi pronged approach. And I think everything is happening in pretty good real time as far as the DNA world goes, because it definitely takes longer than I think most people think, but they're cranking that out in record time.

Nancy Grace (10:02)

Tammy Ballard, are you telling me that when DNA Labs International in Florida entered the DNA into codis, the national database, it would not hit on Arizona defendants.

Tammy Ballard (10:21)

It would not hit on suspects that have been entered into a state lab, and also other profiles that potentially didn't make the cut or reach that threshold that you need so desperately to get into a national search. So there's a lot more restrictions at the national level, rightfully so, because you have so many samples, you want to make sure that once you identify somebody, you have a very good solid hit and database association. So, no, they could not enter it into there, but that's, that's again, a risk to take to get that expedited into that national search. And then now it's triaging and going to the second tier. And now you got to get to state level and work additional evidence.

Nancy Grace (11:09)

If you think, okay, I still don't understand your answer. Tammy Ballard, my question is that if you are convicted of a felony in Arizona, you're telling me your DNA is not in codis?

Tammy Ballard (11:21)

No, it's not that it's not in codis, it's just that the national database has certain offenders and convicted offenders. But also if Arizona has additional suspect reference samples that are not in the national database, there's more that can be done. You also cannot do familial testing or comparisons at the national level. So you can only do that at the state level and have to have that state lab involved in that process. If you do want to attempt familial testing prior to something like genealogy testing.

Nancy Grace (12:08)

Aldous Hodge returns as Alex Cross, your favorite detective on television for season two of the hit show Cross, now streaming exclusively on Prime Video. Critics call season one one of the year's best shows with over 40 million viewers worldwide. The story continues with a new season from creator Ben Watkins and based on characters created by James Patterson, cross is Washington, D.C. 's most brilliant homicide detective and forensic psychologist. Fresh off his capture of the infamous serial killer, the fanboy, Cross teams up with the FBI to hunt down a vigilante serial killer targeting corrupt billionaires. As the case unfolds, Cross navigates a moral crossroads where the lines between justice and vengeance are blurred. Cross is back and better than ever this season. Get ready for a new case. Higher stakes, but the same Cross. Watch Season two of Cross, now streaming only on Prime Video.

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Nancy Grace (15:18)

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Andrew Black joining us, former special agent in charge of the Tucson FBI office in Arizona. Okay, does this make sense to you?

Andrew Black (15:35)

So far it does. But all like you said, all is not lost. There are public databases where people have freely submitted their DNA as part of their trying to identify their family tree, their genealogy. There's also private databases that the FBI can tap into. They'll need a legal process to do that, though. But that DNA profile that was developed, they can compare it against somebody who's closely related. And if that happens, we really narrow down the field of the individual who would be wearing that glove.

Nancy Grace (16:07)

We are also learning. Scott Eicher joining us, digital forensics expert, founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey team. Also former cop, homicide Detective with Norfolk, Virginia PD now@pca experts.com that's precisioncellular analysis.com Scott, thank you for being with us. I want to talk to you about Blue Fly, which is a highly technical Bluetooth identifier. Explain what it is and how it's being used.

Scott Eicher (16:41)

So BlueFi is basically a Bluetooth scanner. It's scanning the area to pick up bluetoot signals. Now our phones actually do that. When you look at to try to set up your AirPods to your phone, your phone is actually scanning all the Bluetooth signals in that area to try to connect to your earbuds. But this is a bigger and more powerful device that allows it to bring signals in from further away. Again, we still have the problem that Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker probably doesn't transmit very far because it was only used to connect to her phone. So we do have to use either ground or low flying aircraft to try to connect with that pacemaker of Nancy Guthrie's. And I'm sure they're continually doing that, searching not just around the house, but in other areas of interest.

Nancy Grace (17:37)

What you were just seeing the videos from our friends at Blue Flight, YouTube to Dave Mack. Isn't it true that the range is now over two football fields, or is it three football fields that this blue fly technology can pick up?

Dave Mack (17:55)

They've developed this blue fly technology, Nancy, that it goes 660 to 800ft. So, yes, you're talking two and a half football fields away. It can pick up the Bluetooth signal instead of the 20ft that we were talking about at the very beginning where the pacemaker would hook up with her, her Apple watch. Well, now we're talking a couple of football fields away. And this thing can put it and find it, which is why they've been working on this since four days out, trying to get anything they can on the pacemaker from Nancy Guthrie.

Nancy Grace (18:28)

Now, we know, Scott Eicher, that a pacemaker cannot be identified, cannot be located, does not have a GPS signal that is emitted. But this could work. And at first they had a sniffer, a signal sniffer attached to a helicopter. Now it's been moved to low flying drones, and they've been going all through the neighborhood where Nancy Guthrie lived and beyond. Why the switch?

Scott Eicher (18:56)

Well, we want to get more specific. And as you said, the signal is not very strong from her pacemaker. There's no gps. Hopefully it'll run for, as you've mentioned in a previous show, you know, seven to 10 years would be great. So using a lower flying aircraft to kind of help us pinpoint if we do capture that signal, you got to remember they're capturing probably thousands every second, and they have to weed out all the noise and concentrate on just the one that matches the Mac address for her pacemaker.

Nancy Grace (19:31)

So is that possible, Scott Eicher, that you, when you're using the signal sniffer, that you filter out everything except pacemakers or Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker?

Scott Eicher (19:45)

Yes. So from what I understand, the pacemaker has a Mac address, just like a computer or anything like else, anything else that has Bluetooth. So that Mac address is specific for her pacemaker, and they're scanning and capturing all the Bluetooth devices in that area, and it'll filter out everything else except for hers. And once it matches hers, then you get to be able to track it to a specific location.

Nancy Grace (20:09)

Could you explain what you mean when you say Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker has a Mac address?

Scott Eicher (20:14)

A Mac address is an identifier for that device. It's very specific, it's unique to that device, and no other device will have that. So it's helping us to identify that pacemaker if we can get close enough to it.

Nancy Grace (20:30)

It's like the VIN on a car, the VIN number. Only one car has that VIN number. And it's very hard to get the VIN number off of a car. Of course, experts can do it. So you're saying her pacemaker had a VIN number of sorts. It's the Mac address. So you're also telling me, Scott Eicher, that the signal sniffer can filter out everything except her Mac address.

Scott Eicher (20:56)

That's correct.

Nancy Grace (20:57)

And they're very easy to look up. I have to look them up every time my mom goes to the hospital, which between a deep cough or we think maybe does she have Covid or her back hurts or her chest hurts. She's 94. We go straight to the ER, right. Don't wait to find out. And every time they want to put her inside of an mri, but she can't do that because she's got a pacemaker that is not compatible. It'll blow up. Right. So every time, even though it's in the hospital records, we have to look up the pacemaker and the exact one that is in her. Every single time it's in hospital records. It's really not hard to do. So the signal sniffer can hone in and only respond if it gets that Mac address correct?

Scott Eicher (21:47)

That is correct. Out of thousands, which is fantastic. It can do that.

Nancy Grace (21:51)

To Sky Lazzaro, special guest joining us. She is a veteran criminal defense attorney joining us out of this jurisdiction in Utah. She has worked both state and federal cases with Ray Quinney and Kneebacker. Thank you for being with us, Sky. I imagine if this ever does get to trial, which I hope it does, that there will be a huge battle, an evidentiary battle, as to whether this evidence regarding the signal sniffer will be allowed. It's just like the first fight over DNA or the first evidentiary fight over fingerprints. There's a huge fight whether it's reliable or not. Of course it will be deemed reliable, but there's still going to be a huge evidentiary battle. Do you agree?

Sky Lazaro (22:40)

I do. I think any defense attorney in this case is going to fight absolutely everything. I think there's going to already been some problems, but especially with new, anything new that relates to technology or requires some sort of expert to testify to, they're going to fight this tooth and nail.

Nancy Grace (22:58)

You know, another interesting fact about the signal sniffer, Andrew Black, I just want to throw it in. Cybersecurity technology in the defense field has used this technology for years and years and years when trying to sniff out, for instance, let's just say a foreign national government listening in, you know, bugs, all sorts of waves, Bluetooth waves. And they've been using it for a really long time.

Dave Mack (23:31)

Now.

Nancy Grace (23:31)

It has advanced to where it's being used to, let's just say, find a victim in an avalanche, find a missing person on a hiking trail, a densely wooded forest. So it is now being adapted for uses like we're seeing right now. But it's been around for decades.

Andrew Black (23:48)

Yeah, this is awesome technology. And you can go to, there are electronic stores that the public can, you know, purchase these devices and use them for scanning for spyware in their own house on their computers. If they travel to Airbnbs. People are paranoid of cameras being. And they're not really paranoid. There's been cases where Airbnbs have had cameras spying on individuals. Yeah, this, this equipment is available to the public and it's being used across a wide variety of areas and fields, including, like you described, outdoors sports like mountain climbing and things like that, and locating avalanche victims.

Nancy Grace (24:35)

Guys, you are seeing video from our friends at Blue Fly YouTube to show you what we're talking about. And you can see if we could show it the helicopters that were darting through the sky with the sniffer on them. We believe that the sniffer is on there. You go on the skids right there. This is my friend at Fox News. This was happening until they got the wonderful idea to attach the sniffer to drones. Low flying drones, very low flying drones. That's what you're seeing right there. More there is the DNA update. We are now looking in other data banks, particularly the Arizona State Data Bank. We are also understanding that the DNA found in that glove and in the home is being tested in genetic genealogy data banks, things like GEDmatch and more to Dave Mack. Tell me about the DNA found in the home. What do we know about that?

Dave Mack (25:40)

You know, Nancy, it was DNA that was found inside the home, but they, they being law enforcement, they have not indicated exactly what it was, just DNA found in the home. We do know that it was a lab for testing and we're hoping to get that information back as soon as this afternoon. And then they'll, they will be able to compare what they've already found and see if we can't connect between what was found in the house and what was found on the glove. And again, something that was mentioned earlier, you know, when it comes to codis, Nancy, and getting a hit on codis, not everybody in the World is in a database. So if you've got somebody's DNA and you've identified this DNA, but they're not in a system anywhere, they're not going to show up. You have to have something to compare it to so you can move forward. So that's the other sidebar to this whole thing.

Nancy Grace (26:35)

Dave Mack, what can you tell me about FBI agents taking, we've been told, 40 names, 40 photos to gun shops all around Tucson?

Dave Mack (26:45)

They, they actually did. They got the pictures together. They got bios on these people and they 40. Now, we don't know where they got the 40 names, 40 pictures, we don't know that. But what we do know is that they did have this list that they called in law enforcement, then the FBI. They went all throughout Tucson. Remember, there's a lot of stores that sell guns. You're talking pawn shops and everything else. So they were visiting all of these stores and showing pictures and talking to sellers about businesses they've been conducting with selling firearms to find out if anybody recognized any of the 40 plus pictures they were seeing or the names or were even just familiar. I mean, most people in Tucson have heard about this case. Right now, they're probably more familiar than most. And the FBI just decided to canvas every place that sells guns to see if anybody recognizes one of these 40 that they've come up with thus far. And we don't have. We don't have the results. We just know that they've been canvassing those names and those names and pictures.

Nancy Grace (27:50)

I'm very curious where those 40 photos of 40 names came from. Who are they? How are they identified? Were they identified because they're cell phones and popped up in Nancy Guthrie's neighborhood around the time she went missing. Are they people that worked for or around Nancy Guthrie? Are they church members? Are they distant relatives? I want to know who those 40 people are. But before I go to Sky Lazaro on the dangers of photo lineups and the constitutional problems with that, I want to go back to Tammy Ballard and button down the DNA issue. Tammy, I know we're being told tonight that the DNA found in the one glove did not get a hit in codis. What I really want to know is did the DNA in or on that glove found in the area of Nancy's home match the DNA found in the home? That's what I really want to know now. What type of DNA analysis would reveal.

Tammy Ballard (28:50)

That they're going to do the same exact DNA testing that they did on the gloves for a direct comparison? Hopefully for what you referred to as an STR profile. So that same profile from the glove was single source enough from one, at least a good enough profile to get all the way up to national. So you've got something great to compare to when you do identify additional profiles from inside the residence.

Nancy Grace (29:21)

When you say it was good enough to get to national, what do you mean?

Tammy Ballard (29:25)

It's a pretty high bar to get a profile up to national because there's so many people in national. Again, you don't want to have something hit to, you know, more than one individual. So you really have to have a very solid profile because there's millions of profiles in that national CODIS database. So they have a good.

Nancy Grace (29:46)

Sounds like it's got to reach certain expectations, like it can't be degraded, it can't be a mixture of DNA, Is that what you're saying?

Tammy Ballard (29:53)

They can have mixtures, but those mixtures have to strongly favor a significant contributor in there such that they are reporting, and I haven't seen the profile, but they are reporting that it's an unknown male. So that's pretty significant. That tells me that there is a very strong contributor. Even if there's a mixture, it sounds like the majority of that DNA is associated with one person.

Nancy Grace (30:19)

Guys, the DNA is being compared on many, many different levels. So, Tammy Ballard, you're saying that now the same type of test has to be run on the same DNA in order to match it potentially to DNA in Nancy Guthrie's home.

Tammy Ballard (30:36)

Correct. They're just going to do that same type of DNA testing to compare. That's not saying they can't do additional testing also, but for now they would be looking at comparing an STR profile to an STR profile. Apples to apples.

Nancy Grace (30:53)

So at what point do you use up the DNA?

Tammy Ballard (30:56)

Well, I'm going to hope that with a glove, a glove is usually a pretty decent amount of DNA potentially. And again, I don't know what the source of the DNA is within the residence. Hopefully that's sufficient. But most private laboratories have a pretty strict policy about not consuming the DNA. So unless they're asking for and getting authorization to consume that there should be sufficient DNA remaining to also consume again. And also I wouldn't hesitate about re swabbing a glove and assuming sufficient DNA is quite a potential. So it's, it's a lot of surface area on a glove. And it sounds like if this DNA is associated with a single person, then there's probably a good chance that there's more DNA on that glove that you could work with.

Nancy Grace (31:55)

Aldous Hodge returns as Alex Cross, your favorite detective on television for season two of the hit show Cross, now streaming exclusively on Prime Video. Critics call season one one of the year's best shows with over 40 million viewers worldwide. The story continues with a new season from creator Ben Watkins and based on characters created by James Patterson, cross is Washington, D.C. 's most brilliant homicide detective and forensic psychologist. Fresh off his capture of the infamous serial killer, the fanboy, Cross teams up with the FBI to hunt down a vigilante serial killer targeting corrupt billionaires. As the case unfolds, Cross navigates a moral crossroads where the lines between justice and vengeance are blurred. Cross is back and better than ever this season. Get ready for a new case. Higher stakes, but the same Cross Watch Season two of Cross, now streaming only on Prime Video.

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Nancy Grace (35:32)

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Back to Sky Lazaro joining us, veteran criminal defense attorney in the Utah jurisdiction. A photo array lineup is governed largely by the same rules as an in person lineup. It can't be persuasive in that you can't know that your perp is 6:3 and then put four guys that are 5:1 and one guy that is 6:3 in the lineup. It can't be a false lineup. So what I'm getting at are the photos that have been shown to gun shop owners, which basically are tantamount to a photo array lineup. What do you think?

Sky Lazaro (36:22)

I think this can be hugely problematic, especially if they identify someone, you know they're going to get challenged all over the place. Was it suggestive like you said? Is this really a photo lineup? Did they do it? Were they just showing pictures? Did they give some sort of description? First things along those lines, are they looking for a particular gun? I think it's going to cause some serious problems and it's a huge due process problem. I think for the state a lot of times and we see eyewitness or convictions based on eyewitness testimony thrown out all the time. If you look at a lot of.

Nancy Grace (37:02)

The things that but wait a minute, Sky Lazaro, I'm not talking about eyewitness testimony. I'm talking about the constitutionality of a photo array lineup, which I personally have brought into evidence many, many, many times and I've never had a problematic issue with them.

Sky Lazaro (37:18)

I think it depends on how it's done. I think they can be admissible, but if it's not done correctly or you have an officer who doesn't document it correctly, I think it's definitely challengeable by the defense.

Nancy Grace (37:28)

Oh, there's going to be a challenge on everything whether it's justified or not. You're right about that. Hey, Tammy Ballard, very quickly in the home. We're talking about DNA found in the home. I'm guessing it's touch DNA, not blood, not. Where would you look in the home to get touch DNA?

Tammy Ballard (37:45)

Well, if, I mean I'm. Don't get me wrong, I'm really curious to know if there's blood right inside that front door as well. But let's assume maybe there's blood in the rest of the residence. Anything around those areas where a struggle may have occurred, Any indication where somebody could have left something behind, Maybe again, they could be injured as well if she did fight back. So we might have two bleeders and get really, really lucky. So yes, touch DNA, but it's got to have something where you're localizing an item of evidence or something that you think might have come in contact with that perpetrator.

Nancy Grace (38:24)

Okay, those were a lot of words. So you're saying maybe the perp bled. So you think an 84 year old woman that had been asleep got that, actually got a hit in. I don't think that the perp is going to have bled. I think that's Nancy Guthrie's blood, probably from a nosebleed. Plus she had propula, which you can see that in the picture where her hand is all bloody under the skin. People get that from using blood thinners. Very, very common. So I would wager any blood found on the scene is hers. So. So let's move to the next possibility. Where could you get touch DNA in the home that's not hers?

Tammy Ballard (39:09)

Well, if we're going to assume that he's got gloves on because of the video footage, you know that anything is a potential with that, you know, you're talking to somebody who's done DNA for my entire adult life. I wear a glove very differently than a normal human wears a glove. So I guarantee that perpetrator was touching his holster. Everything on his person. I'm willing to wager that bet. So you've got his DNA on the outside of those gloves as well as the inside. So he's probably leaving some DNA behind in that residence, the struggle is going to be trying to figure out where he would have left touch DNA and on what items.

Nancy Grace (39:54)

Okay. That was so smart. Out of curiosity, this is not probative to the Guthrie case, but what do you mean you wear gloves differently than the rest of us?

Tammy Ballard (40:03)

I watch people wear gloves because my whole life is protecting the DNA. So when I see someone put a pair of gloves on at a crime scene and grab the pen out of their pocket that they've been carrying around, those gloves are now contaminated. The average person doesn't realize that they're cross contaminating their gloves with their own DNA. With the simplest of tasks, you know, using a pen, wiping your brow, touching that holster that you. Most likely he wasn't handling that holster at all times with gloved hands. So his DNA is on these items and would transfer onto those gloves. Then those. That. Those gloves could be that transfer inside the house for touch DNA as well.

Nancy Grace (40:48)

And that is why Tammy Ballard is the expert. Hadn't even thought of that. Of transferring touch DNA to become touch DNA in the home. And we see him touching the holster. What if he wiped his nose? What if he touched his face? What if he rolled up his sleeve or rolled down his sleeve? There is a plethora of possibilities of getting DNA. How do you go in there and figure out Tammy Ballard? Okay, see, many people would say, well, get the door handles and the light switches, but there's so much more than door handles and light switches, Tammy.

Tammy Ballard (41:30)

Yes, and again, it's really difficult to make assumptions when you haven't had access inside the scene to see what is disrupted. You know, maybe she was able to. Maybe there's a very clear area where something is disrupted, where there could be something handled, an item of evidence that just really sticks out, that might have been collected. I just. I. It's hard to speculate, but those are the items that you're going to see.

Nancy Grace (42:00)

What about the saliva on the flashlight, the light bite?

Tammy Ballard (42:04)

Those are my.

Nancy Grace (42:04)

Remember, he had that in his mouth.

Tammy Ballard (42:06)

Those are my favorites.

Nancy Grace (42:07)

Keep it in his mouth the whole time.

Tammy Ballard (42:08)

I'm sure those are my favorite. That's your source of DNA right there, and that's saliva. So I've had several of those cases. Those are the best. He's also probably adjusting that really uncomfortable face mask so he's got all that sweat and saliva from his own face mask that he's transferring onto his gloves and potentially transferring onto something else.

Nancy Grace (42:31)

We can only pray, Tammy Ballard. And this is why my direct examinations always took so long, because every Time the witness, the expert would say something, it leads to a whole series of other insanely relevant questions. Who would have thought, other than Tammy Ballard about him touching his holster, which we see him do over and over and then touching something in the home or fiddling with his face mask or fiddling with his gloves or taking the light bite which is covered in his saliva and touching something else. We can only pray he made a mistake. And speaking of all of these accoutrements to Andrew Black joining us, former Special agent in charge of the Tucson office of the FBI, currently Chief of University of Hawaii Department Public Safety. Andrew, I want to talk to you about Walmart. We know that the Ozark backpack is sold at Walmart. Our Crime Stories staff within an hour had identified objects also sold at Walmart. That looks like he's wearing the jacket, the face mask, the backpack. I can only imagine what the shoes would reveal. Walmart sells gloves like that. The holster, the holster. It's a cheap about a ten dollar polyester holster and when we last checked it was only available at two Tucson Walmarts. What if this guy, and why wouldn't he got it all at once and there would be the receipt for the FBI to find. Plus another thing, we've been talking a lot or I've been talking a lot how Cass Sailor analysis survey team with the FBI has been identifying phone usage in Nancy's neighborhood at the time she went missing. Problem would be a burner phone. They're harder to trace but they're also sold at Walmart. And what about the bite light? What about that?

Andrew Black (44:52)

Well those are all good points. He seems to be a frequent Walmart shopper. And as you've, as you've seen the more information that comes out. First we had the video, then we had the backpack that was identified as coming from Walmart. We had a description of the individual with the height, we had the sketch that approximated what he looked like. And now we're getting indications that the clothing that you described were also purchased at Walmart. All this is very helpful. The fact that that holster is only sold at two Walmarts is a very easy lead to follow up. Walmart has a very good loss prevention system. They have cameras at every cashier. So ideally you hope this person paid for these items with a credit card. That would be awesome. That would make things much easier. If it was paid for cash, you might have a little trouble because like all businesses there's a turnover of the length of time that video is kept. Usually it's 30 to 60 days. But as we've seen with the Nest camera, is it ever really gone? It may take longer to get it if it was purchased with cash outside of the 30 to 60 day period from her disappearance. But I'd like to circle back one thing that Tammy was talking about. She did an excellent job analyzing the DNA issues. But the FBI and local law enforcement, they do have enhanced technology and lighting called alternate light sources that will illuminate any type of DNA material. So they could shine these lights. There's a various levels of spectrums and they can illuminate where DNA can be located. That's how the poly class kidnapping 20 something years ago was solved. With that alternate light source illuminating some DNA that was otherwise invisible.

Dave Mack (46:39)

Wow.

Nancy Grace (46:40)

When you're saying alternate light sources, are you talking about the use of aluminol or are you talking about blue star? What are you talking about?

Andrew Black (46:50)

That's one technique. There are also photographic and light sources that are utilized and when they are shown in a area, and I think Tammy knows about this. I don't know the name of the particular technology, but it illuminates DNA in a room.

Nancy Grace (47:10)

So Andrew, you're talking about alternative light sources like blue light technology or uv, ultraviolet light.

Andrew Black (47:18)

Yes, and I'm sure the technology has advanced since when I left the FBI eight years ago. These are techniques that are used to illuminate bodily fluids. Biometric information that otherwise couldn't be detected by the naked eye and sometimes without even powder.

Nancy Grace (47:34)

Scott Eicher joining us from PCA Precision Cellular Analysis. You have a question for Andrew Black. What is it?

Scott Eicher (47:43)

Yeah, Andrea, since you're the SAC in Tucson, you probably have a lot of experience dealing with the fact that the border is so close and how you think that might affect us identifying this DNA and suspects in the area.

Andrew Black (47:58)

Well, that's the Tucson is considered a border town, right? Just 60 miles. The Mexican border is just 60 miles south of Tucson. So you know, when we've had investigations, it's not uncommon for individuals who are eluding law enforcement or the FBI to cross over into the border. Right now there's no indication that that's what's happening through the investigators and any information they've released, they believe this is a local crime with local individual or individuals. But you can't rule out the possibility with the border being that close. It's. It is for someone who's on the run, it is very enticing just to cross over the border till things slow down.

Nancy Grace (48:45)

Why are you so convinced it's local, Andrew?

Andrew Black (48:48)

I think the with all the information that's been coming out, there's been anywhere between 30 and 50,000 leads that have been generated. I think they would have shared more information about an international aspect of this case. Doesn't mean there isn't. It's very plausible because the border's right there and it's, you know, attractive to criminals to cross over. But I think we would have heard something either from the FBI or the Sheriff's department regarding some cross border nexus.

Nancy Grace (49:19)

If you know or think you know anything regarding Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, please dial toll free 8002-2553-2480-0225-5324. If you wish to remain anonymous, dial 520-8827-463520-88274. Thank you to our guests for being with us, but especially to you for being with us tonight. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night and until then, good night, friend. From coast to coast Unlock adventure at Red Lion Hotel by Sonesta where restful sleep, friendly service and local knowledge await. Whether for business or pleasure, spend less and make more of every trip. When you sign up for Sonesta Travel Pass, you'll get the best rates instantly. Go to sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock the best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join now@sonesta.com terms and conditions apply.

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