← Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
HEALTHCARE ASSASSIN LUIGI MANTIONE CELEBRATES BIRTHDAY BEHIND BARS WITH $1.5 MILLION
01:20:20
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- [00:00]
Nancy Grace
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human introducing the all new Mazda
- [00:08]
Mazda CX5 Advertiser
CX5 featuring more connection hey Google, where's the nearest Pilates class? Safety that has your back. More discovery on the scenic routes, more passion in the details and more control in changing weather. The all new Mazda CX5 more to move every side of you. See it in five films at mazdausa.com fivesides Google is a trademark of Google LLC.
- [00:34]
Nancy Grace
Sequences shortened and simulated crime stories brought
- [00:37]
Crime Stories Narrator
to you by Penn Foster When a student falls behind, the gap doesn't just stay the same, it can grow. Not every student fits in a traditional classroom, and when it's not working, staying on the same path can make things worse. When that happens, another option matters. Penn Foster High School is an accredited online diploma program built for flexibility. It is self paced. That means students can work on their own schedule, fitting school around jobs, family, sports or other responsibilities. It's a different path, but it's a path forward, one that gives students more control over how they learn. The focus is simple. Work toward earning an accredited high school diploma, toward what comes next. If you or your family need a change, visit Penn Foster Edu nanc. That's P E N n foster Edu Nancy and learn more. There is an answer. Your family's safety requires your trust Trust in the security system you've chosen to protect your home. SimpliSafe has made trust simple 24. 7 Affordable professional monitoring with no long term contracts, no lock ins or hidden cancellation fees, their fully customizable system fits your exact needs with comprehensive sensors and indoor outdoor cameras. Customize a system that's right for you and your home@simplisafe.com and it ships to your door in just a few days. With app guided setup and no drilling required, you can install and arm your system in under an hour. Crime stories listeners get 50% off a new system when signing up for professional monitoring and your first month is free. You just visit simplisafe.com Nancy that's half off@simplisafe.com Nancy first month free. There is no safe like SimpliSafe.
- [02:48]
GLP1 Drug Expert
Let's take a minute to unpack the myths behind GLP1 drugs. Myth number one GLP1 is a long term solution for weight loss. True, GLP1 can potentially be a long term solution for weight loss. If you want to be on a drug that changes your body's natural instincts, GLP1 can fix your metabolism.
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Nancy Grace
False.
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GLP1 Drug Expert
GLP1s fix hunger and this leads to weight loss. But the GLP1s may actually slow down your metabolic rate as your body adjusts to consuming fewer calories. GLP1 leads to a loss of muscle mass True GLP1 can lead to a loss of muscle mass due to losing weight so rapidly that your body is pulling from both fat and muscle to make up for the energy gap for from consuming so few calories. If you're looking for a natural GLP1 therapy, you should consider Metabolism Ignite. Metabolism Ignite is powered by plants and can help boost your natural GLP 1. Visit VeracityHealth Co to learn more. That's V E R A C I T Y Health Co and type in promo code IHEART for up to 65% off your purchase.
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Nancy Grace
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Crime Stories Narrator
The spoiled Brat millionaire the so called health care assassin Luigi Mangione is celebrating his 28th birthday right now behind bars with $1.5 million in donation. Wow, that's some birthday. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. The so called healthcare assassin who gunned down UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson, a husband, a father, in broad daylight on the sidewalk in Manhattan received a $28,038 donation
- [04:38]
Nancy Grace
just a few days ago from a
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Crime Stories Narrator
guy named Carl, putting Luigi's jailhouse winnings at a whopping $1.5 million. Well, that's certainly something to celebrate, isn't it? As he celebrates his 28th birthday behind bars, I wonder what Brian Thompson's boys will be doing when they turn 28. Maybe reading the Internet about how their father was gunned down in cold blood. That said, what's happening with the trial?
- [05:09]
Legal Analyst
In an effort to prevent a jury from seeing a 3D printed gun allegedly used to murder UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson, Luigi Mangione's legal team argues that local police in Pennsylvania is illegally searched their client's backpack when he was arrested in Altoona McDonald's. Mangioni also wants to exclude the red notebook with handwritten notes and anything else found in the backpack in his possession at the time of his arrest. Manjioni claims officers searched his backpack at the McDonald's and continued searching the bag once he was transported to the Altoona police station, all before seeking a search warrant later in the day. Mangione's defense attorneys pushed for all of the backpack's contents to be barred from the state's case because they allege it was searched illegally without a warrant. Prosecutors denied the defense claims and insisted the searches were legal and proper. Judge Gregory Caro, the judge overseeing the New York State case against Luigi Mangione, issuing a ruling months after having gone through a nine day suppression hearing that included hours of footage from police body worn cameras showing how the arrest unfolded and testimony from multiple law enforcement officers about the searches. Judge Caro ruled that part of the initial backpack search at the McDonald's where Mangioni was arrested was unconstitutional under New York law. And because of this, items suppressed include a loaded magazine, cell phone, passport, wallet, computer chip, microchip, as well as some statements Mangione made before Miranda protection is attached. The judge is allowing prosecutors to use several pieces of evidence. A 3D printed handgun described as the murder weapon, a silencer and a notebook journal allegedly containing writings about the attack that has been called a manifesto. In the ruling, Judge Caro says the backpack was not within Mangione's immediate grabbable area when officers searched it, making the warrantless search improper. But the judge found that a later search at the station house was lawful, which is why the gun in the notebook remained admissible. In a brief statement after the ruling, the DA's office says we look forward to presenting our case at trial on September 8.
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Crime Stories Narrator
And what are the facts surrounding the case?
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Legal Analyst
A masked gunman shoots dead the United Healthcare CEO in media Midtown Manhattan.
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Bill Daly
An urgent search ensues for the suspect last seen entering Central Park.
- [07:28]
Nancy Grace
Marriage secrets being revealed as this health boss worth millions of dollars is gunned down and open around the public, what do we make of clues left behind? Cryptic and odd clues. For instance, bullets found actually have been inscribed with letters on them. A cell phone had been left behind. Is there DNA on a water bottle? Was this a pro? A silencer was used. And in the middle of the assassination the gun jams and seemingly the pro shooter simply adjusted and continued firing. Everyone, thank you for being with us. If this can happen in public, what are we to think of it? Well, take a listen to what the Chief of detectives has to say.
- [08:24]
Chief Detective Joe Kenney
This morning at 6:46am Patrol offices from Midtown North Precinct responded to a 911 call of a person shot in front of the Hilton hotel located at 1335 Avenue of the Americas. This is between West 53rd street and was 50 West 54th Street. At 6:48am Officers arrive and find the victim, Brian r. Thompson, a 50 year old male on the sidewalk in front of the Hilton with gunshot wounds to his back and leg.
- [08:48]
Nancy Grace
You know, the way the shooter handled the weapon, the use of a silencer, the mask, the lying in wait, all indicates a professional hit. But a pro wouldn't want to be caught. A Pro would do everything not to get caught. So then why were there especially engraved bullets with cryptic messages on them? It sounds like a fifth grade girl writing a crime thriller. Something's way off with this. Joining me, an all star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But first, straight out to investigative reporter Lauren Conlon. Joining us, co host PrimeTime Crime on YouTube and you can find her at PopCrime TV who has gone to the scene and investigated. Lauren, what can you tell us?
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Lauren Conlon
Yes, Nancy, and the street, the entire street of West 53rd street was blocked off. There was plain clothed detectives as well as uniformed officers, basically not saying anything. I asked questions, I asked witnesses if they heard anything. And the parking lot attendants were actually there earlier that morning. But they said, you know, due to the silencer, they didn't hear anything.
- [10:03]
Nancy Grace
Tell me your understanding what you learned of what happened. Starting at the beginning.
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Lauren Conlon
Starting at the beginning, I learned that Brian Thompson arrived in New York Monday. Now, he was not staying at the Hilton. He was staying at a hotel across the street. He was set to speak at 8am at their annual investors conference and he was arriving early at 6:45. So as he walked into the entrance of the Hilton, it was revealed by NYPD that this gunman was allegedly lying in wait before he shot him.
- [10:40]
Nancy Grace
Take a listen to Chief Detective Joe Kenney.
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Chief Detective Joe Kenney
Mr. Thompson was removed by EMS to Roosevelt Hospital where he was pronounced dead at 7:12am Mr. Thompson is the CEO of UnitedHealthcare and resides in Minnesota. Detectives from Night Watch, Midtown North Detective Squad and Manhattan South Homicide responded to the scene and began their investigation.
- [11:00]
Nancy Grace
We're learning a lot. I want to go straight out to Bill Daley. Joining us from New York, former FBI investigator, forensic photography international security expert. Bill, thank you for being with us. You see the video stills we're showing? I don't know that a pro would have done this right in front of a surveillance video.
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Bill Daly
Well, you're exactly right, Nancy, is that, you know, people throw on this thing about, you know, professional hitmen. I mean, those are, those are out of the movies. I mean, this, this could be somebody who trained, who thought it out, who. Obviously he's done a lot of reconnaissance and research, but we're talking about professional hit people. That's something made in the movies, I would say, Nancy, a couple of things I'm quite familiar with this area, being a New Yorker and having worked on the streets of New York for quite a number of years is that this is actually the side entrance. Mr. Thompson was apparently staying around the corner. We believe at the Marriott Hotel, which actually gave him a couple of avenues of approach to the hotel. This is the side entrance, the main entrance on 6th Avenue. So for this gunman to know that he was going to be coming down the side street at this time suggests to me there was some other reconnaissance inside information that he knew that he was at another hotel, he wasn't staying at the Hilton, that he'd be coming down this street. He could have. Thompson could have easily walked around 7th Avenue, come down 55th street or another street to grab a cup of coffee, but he didn't. And so there are a couple things out here that kind of jump out to me that are really concerning with regard to how much information was known about the specific movements Mr. Thompson that morning.
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Nancy Grace
Bill Daly, I know exactly what you mean about that location. But wouldn't it have been easy for the perp, the killer, to be waiting in the lobby, waiting for the victim, Brian Thompson, to walk out? He didn't have to be lying in wait at that side entrance. He could have simply followed him. He did come up behind him.
- [12:49]
Bill Daly
Yeah. I mean, there are a couple things here, Nancy, that is true. And in fact, you know, if he knew if he was going to be speaking at the conference, he didn't have to be waiting outside. He could have done it just in the lobby, upstairs in an elevator, or some other. Other place where he knew there was kind of a kind of choke point where he would have had to travel through in order to get to the conference. The other thing is that which kind of points to perhaps something more, someone from the area or from the region, is the fact that Mr. Thompson lives out in Minnesota. Day to day, he comes to and from work, he comes to and from his home. He goes perhaps to see maybe his children's sporting events, who knows what? But those are kind of open areas, other areas where he could have been a target. But yet this was done in New York City, where he doesn't live, where he was visiting, where this person would have only had a couple of days opportunity for any kind of reconnaissance and kind of staging this event. And so it kind of leads me to suggest that this person chose New York either because it's more difficult. You can get lost in the city. You can do things like this. You could disappear into Central park and perhaps try to hide your trails, you know, or it was a matter of convenience that the person was in and around the area and didn't have to travel to Minnesota.
- [13:51]
Nancy Grace
You're right. The victim in town to speak at an Investor conference. Listen.
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News Reporter
The victim was in New York City
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Health Expert / Advertiser
to speak at an investor conference.
- [13:58]
Nancy Grace
It appears a suspect was lying in
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News Reporter
wait for several minutes.
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Health Expert / Advertiser
And as the victim was walking to
- [14:04]
Nancy Grace
the conference hotel, the suspect approached from
- [14:07]
News Reporter
behind and fired several rounds, striking the
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Health Expert / Advertiser
victim at least once in the back
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News Reporter
and at least once in the right calf.
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Nancy Grace
Many people passed the suspect, but he
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Health Expert / Advertiser
appeared to wait for his intended target.
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Nancy Grace
Well, it's clearly targeted. Bill Daley. There is no robbery, there is no carjacking, there is no sex attack. So it's targeted. Can we look at the photo of the suspect's face? Now, we keep hearing we don't know much about him, but I can tell you right now, he's white number one. He knows enough to cover his face, but I see that he is not wearing gloves. To Lauren Conlon, what can you tell me about a discarded water bottle?
- [14:55]
Lauren Conlon
The discarded water bottle, Nancy, was found in the alleyway which is between 53rd and 54th Street. It's the Ziegfeld Ballroom alleyway.
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Nancy Grace
A pro would not leave behind a water bottle. A pro wouldn't even be drinking anything. Right before you murder somebody.
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Bill Daly
Not ex an NCN goes to my suggestion. This person again kind of orchestrated this. Pre planned it. I thought it out. We can speak about perhaps the weapon a little bit later on. All these things tie into somebody who is knowledgeable about only what they were doing, but certainly not a professional. That's somebody we might see kind of portrayed in the movies. These people would be much more sub roser about their efforts, would kind of not be seen beforehand. And I'm going to suggest to you is that besides this video and these images we have now, as that police are looking to kind of put together both the timeline and his trail, there'll be some more coming out and we'll have, we'll have some more facial images. Perhaps the DNA may help, but as we all know, working these cases is you need to have something to compare it to. You need to have some database to compare it to, or using ancestral DNA, perhaps tie this person back to someone else and work through that that angle. So even though we have all these things and there could be, who knows, maybe fragmented fingerprints on the bullet casings or other evidence left behind. But again, you need something to compare it to.
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Chief Detective Joe Kenney
What we know is that the shooter arrived at the location on foot about five minutes prior to the victim's arrival. He stands alongside the building line as numerous other people and pedestrians pass him by. From video we see at 6:44am the victim is walking alone towards the Hilton after exiting his hotel across the street. We believe the victim was headed to the Hilton hotel to attend the UnitedHealth Group Investors Conference that was scheduled to start at 8am Let me look at
- [16:42]
Nancy Grace
that stance one more time where the shooter is pointing, pointing the gun at the victim. You know, everybody on the panel jump in but Bill Daly. Look at that. It looks like someone has been watching too many movies and they think that's a professional killer scene stance. Do you see? You see that right there? I'm just telling you, look, he doesn't have on gloves. He's been hanging out, drinking from a water bottle that he leaves behind. I also understand a cell phone has been left behind. And then he gets on a city bike. It reminds me of a bank robbery I prosecuted where the perp had a bike waiting around the corner. He was anything but a pro. And he pedaled off just like this guy is doing. What do you make of that, Bill?
- [17:36]
Bill Daly
Yeah, all these things kind of add up to the fact that this person, again, gave some thought, but yet you talk about, quote, professional. I mean, we really don't have these kind of quote, professional hit men throughout the country. Maybe the mafia does, but we're not talking about people knocking off executives. This doesn't happen in the United States. Perhaps overseas. And perhaps a concern when people travel to high risk locations, but certainly not in New York City. But I'd probably tell you is that both. That stance is kind of a suggestion that the person thought they knew what they were doing. But also the fact that this gun jammed the jam several times, apparently right after each shot. According to police, they believe that it jammed maybe because there was a silencer on the front. A silencer that perhaps caused the jam to occur. But he did clear it very quickly and efficiently. So if somebody who did do some practice training with that weapon beforehand.
- [18:23]
Nancy Grace
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Lauren Collin. The gun jammed more than once.
- [18:27]
Lauren Conlon
Apparently it jammed between shots. But, you know, that didn't stop him. So he. He kept shooting after he.
- [18:34]
Nancy Grace
So the answer is yes. Okay, that's telling me a lot right there. Daily, Daily, Daily. A pro is going to take a gun that jams between every shot. Really?
- [18:44]
Commentator
Yeah.
- [18:45]
Bill Daly
Well, according to some of the forensic experts is that. But by using that silencer. Again, silencers are not things that you are supposed to legally have. So if it was homemade, it could have caused more of this kind of malfunction of the weapon. But again, it did seem as though calmly, he cleared that weapon. He was able to pull the slide on the top.
- [19:03]
Nancy Grace
Dearly did you say homemade? Look, this is. Whoo. This is smelling. This is not a pro. I don't even know where that came from. A homemade silencer?
- [19:17]
Bill Daly
Well, there's some suggestions.
- [19:18]
Nancy Grace
A crow can make a homemade silencer, but come on, man. A homemade silencer, that doesn't work. A pretend professional killer stance, drinking a water bottle and leaving it behind and hopping on a bike without gloves and taking off. No, no. I got to figure this thing out, guys. Why was a health CEO worth millions of dollars gunned down in public early early morning, many people saying it's a pro killer?
- [19:56]
Chief Detective Joe Kenney
The shooter then flees on foot northbound into an alleyway between 54th street and 55th Street. Once at West 55th street, the shooter continues to walk westbound on Avenue in America's where he gets onto an electric E City bike and rides northbound on the Avenue Americas towards Central Park. At 6:48am we have the shooter riding this bike into Central park at Center Drive. We're still tracking video. The last we see with him on that bike is in Central Park. At the scene we recover three live 9 millimeter rounds and three discharged 9 millimeter shell casings. The motor for this murder currently is unknown, but based on the evidence we have so far, it does appear that the victim was specifically targeted. But at this point, we do not know why. This does not appear to be a random act of violence.
- [20:41]
Nancy Grace
Okay, I know that. I know it's not random. Joining me, high profile lawyer Bernarda Villona, New York criminal defense attorney. This is her beat. She is also a former prosecutor. Bernardo, thank you for being with us. What do you make of it so far? Because not only did the pro assassin leave behind three discharged nine millimeter shell casings, they were engraved with three cryptic words. I mean, it's straight out of a crime novel. And another thing, Bernarda, anybody that knows how to type G O O G L E could find out this guy was speaking where and at what time.
- [21:23]
Bernarda Villona
Yeah, but I still think there's an inside job because in a sense of they could have known where he was speaking, but they wouldn't have known exactly what have been leaving out of his hotel. Because remember, this shooter had only been waiting about five minutes. So he had to have had some kind of inside information to know the exact time that Brian Thompson would have been leaving his hotel. Look, all of this looks very shady. I don't think it's a professional kill at all. Because number one, the leaving of the shell casings and the bullets there and then jumping on a bike, I think There's a lot more to this. I don't see that there's going to be an arrest anytime soon, though.
- [21:59]
Nancy Grace
Hold on just a moment on that daily, Bill Daly with me, former FBI investigator and joining us from New York, intimately familiar with the ins and outs, the alleyways where this happened. The guy then goes to Central Park. That was a pretty good move. And it's not that far from where the shooting was by bike. But he goes into Central park, which is blanketed with surveillance videos. I mean, and we can follow his trail. He had to ditch the bike somewhere. I think that we're gonna find out where he leaves the bike. And again, no gloves, as you said earlier, of course, you got to have something to compare it to. If he's not in the DNA or the APHIS database, we don't have anything to match it to. But that said, this. Can we just agree this is not a pro?
- [22:52]
Bill Daly
Yeah, I certainly agree it's not a pro. I also think that there's other probably kind of breadcrumbs left behind is that, you know, if this was connected with either the business because of see that either had been a customer who was certainly totally upset and obsessed with this individual, or perhaps a former employee. That could have been a number of things. But I think there you go. Have to go back and start looking at were there threats against the company? Apparently, according to the victim's wife, there were. And if there were, who was making those and what was, what was the steps?
- [23:24]
Nancy Grace
Let me follow up with what you're just saying. Bill Daly, Lauren Conlon. Now, according to one person, there have been threats on the victim's life, and that is his wife. Were those threats ever reported to le law enforcement?
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Lauren Conlon
Nancy, those threats were never reported to law enforcement.
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Nancy Grace
With me also is Scott Eicher, founding member. I can't say this enough. Of the FBI's Cellular Analysis Survey team. Can I just say, he didn't just fall off the turnip truck people. Iker, if I was going to pick him off, I would go somewhere with a silencer and wait out in the middle of nowhere, right? Let his body lay there for three or four hours before anybody figures anything out. So why intentionally find him in New York City?
- [24:16]
Scott Eicher
I agree there's a lot of other places that you could have done this, this murder, but there's a lot of benefits of doing it in a crowded city also. I mean, if you think about it, you might be able to mix in with the regular people walking to and from work cars and everything like that. He didn't think about all the cameras in the area. He didn't think about all the people that might see different things. And obviously I agree with the other gentleman that says I don't think this guy is a professional. I do think he has some training. I mean, I was on the FBI SWAT team. I shot twice a week. And I can see that type of stance, that he had some training. And for him to do that malfunction, clear the gun, shoot again, clear it, clear it. That takes training and time. So I think, at least in my mind, he's made a lot of mistakes. I don't think he's a professional. I totally agree with that. But he has had some training and
- [25:11]
Nancy Grace
we are learning more from Chief of Detectives Joe Kenny, from speaking to other
- [25:15]
Chief Detective Joe Kenney
employees that traveled with him to New York, it doesn't seem that he had a security detail. He left the hotel by himself, was walking, didn't seem like he had any issues at all. So I don't think he did not have a security detail.
- [25:27]
Nancy Grace
Lauren Conlon, Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there just a firefighters pension fund that sued the victim because he dumped about 31% of his stock, made $15 million just before everything went south? Right. And there's a complaint about that. Yes, that's happening. The wife says there's death threats. He's worth millions of dollars and he doesn't have security detail.
- [25:58]
Lauren Conlon
Yes, his NET Worth is $43 million, Nancy. And not only that, I found a plethora of lawsuits. He was accused of creating an algorithm to deny patients coverage. So I found quite a few lawsuits there. And then additionally, there was a data breach. I believe it was February of 2024 where many, many people were at risk and not happy.
- [26:29]
Mazda CX5 Advertiser
Introducing the all new Mazda CX5 featuring more connection. Hey Google, where's the nearest Pilates class? Safety that has your back. More discovery on the scenic routes, more passion in the details and more control in changing weather. The all new Mazda CX5 more to move every side of you. See it in five films at mazdausa.com fivesides Google is a trademark of Google LLC.
- [26:58]
Nancy Grace
Sequences shortened and simulated crime stories brought
- [27:00]
Crime Stories Narrator
to you by Penn Foster. Sometimes things don't go as planned with school. Whether you're looking to go back and finish what you started or you're the parent of a teen who's falling behind in traditional school, having an alternative can make all the difference. Penn Foster High School is an accredited online diploma program built to be flexible with self paced courses so students can work at their own pace and move forward. Visit PennFoster. Edu Nancy that's P E N N Foster Edu Nancy and learn more. There is an answer. Your family's safety requires your trust. Trust in the security system you've chosen to protect your home. SimpliSafe has made trust simple 24. 7 Affordable professional monitoring with no long term contracts, no lock ins or hidden cancellation fees. Their fully customizable system fits your exact needs with comprehensive sensors and indoor outdoor cameras. Customize a system that's right for you and your home@simplisafe.com and it ships to your door in just a few days. With app guided setup and no drilling required, you can install and arm your system in under an hour. Crime stories listeners get 50% off a new system when signing up for professional monitoring and your first month is free. You just visit simplisafe.com Nancy that's half off@simplisafe.com Nancy first month free. There is no safe like SimpliSafe.
- [28:46]
Health Expert / Advertiser
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- [29:47]
Nancy Grace
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace it's hard
- [29:53]
Crime Stories Narrator
for me to believe that the health care assassin who guns down a father, a husband in cold blood has become some sort of a folk hero for people who view executives in the healthcare industry as greedy scoundrels. Well, they may be greedy scoundrels, but I don't think murder is the answer. Prosecutors say Mangione gunned down Thompson on a Manhattan street because he Luigi thought insurers were parasites that abused citizens. And that may be true. But murder? What do we know Listen to this.
- [30:32]
Nancy Grace
It's just like a fifth grade girl writes an action thriller or tries to listen.
- [30:37]
Legal Analyst
Police have released a new chilling detail in the assassination style shooting. Three live rounds and three shell casings recovered from the crime scene. And cops are now saying there are inscriptions on the shell casings. The words deny, defend and depose were engraved on the bullets.
- [30:54]
Nancy Grace
So the words deny, defend and depose were engraved on the bullets by who? The local jeweler. Joining me right now is a ballistics expert, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of hit series Body Bags with Jo Scott Morgan. Joe Scott. Really? Okay, I can't hammer this enough. A pro. What did they write it in? Fancy cursive. Deny, defend, depose. Seriously, that sounds like the ransom note left behind in JonBenet. A small foreign faction wants $118,000. Stop.
- [31:36]
Joe Scott Morgan
What's really fascinating about this, Nancy, is the fact that they've got three spent casings that are on the ground and then they have the three live rounds. And he's having to try to clear this weapon because he's had a malfunction, which actually does occur with some frequency when you have a suppressed weapon. And the fact that he had engraving, and I keep hearing this term, this engraving that was on these, on these casings, the fact that he had a jam in the weapon, I would think that it would be engraved on all of the rounds. So how can you plan for that? For instance, if these rounds are stacked, which they would be in a magazine, and every time he clears it, he's going to eject a live round as opposed to those that were spent when he was firing. If you watch the sequence on the video, he fires once and then it looks like he clears. But he may have actually cleared two rounds at that point in time that were still live because the weapon is jamming on him and he has to cycle through it. So he's taken a lot of time. My suspicion is it might be there might be engraving on all of the rounds and that he has taken a lot of time. Somewhere, probably, you know, at home or wherever it is, he shows up prepared to a certain degree, although he didn't wear gloves and he didn't fully mask his face. There's a lot still to kind of untangle here, but that point is certainly fascinating. I've never encountered this before in my years in forensics to this degree now. You know, Hollywood makes a big deal out of this kind of thing, but it's just not something you commonly run into. My question is what's the skill level of the engraving in addition to attempting to attempt define how this was engraved, what instrumentality was used and then maybe the folks will be able to pick up on some form in his writing if he's doing this freehand.
- [33:42]
Legal Analyst
Brian Thompson's wife Paulette tells NBC News that Brian has been receiving death threats. She doesn't go into detail saying it was basically due to a lack of coverage. She adds that she doesn't know exactly, but Brian said there were some people that had been threatening him.
- [33:55]
Nancy Grace
Straight back out to Joe Scott Morgan joining us. Joe Scott, if you I said earlier if there was a death threat on my husband A, I wouldn't let him travel alone to New York. I would at least go with him at the very least. But that said, they have children to take care of back at home. But no security detail, no police reports, nothing. And she is the only one coming forward with the alleged threats if they weren't reported to police. Can anyone within the company verify this ever happened?
- [34:27]
Joe Scott Morgan
Well, he hasn't if he hasn't spoken of this to anybody that's around him. But why would he not, you know, say something about this? And let me tell you one more thing. A guy that is in his atmosphere, you know, we see all these celebs, so called celebrities that are out there that have these, you know, security details with this is a guy, Nancy, that actually has a level of value and would heighten anybody's senses relative to the danger he could potentially be in. Why wouldn't you put a couple of people on him to check the route at least to be body people that are going to escort him around. Maybe he didn't want that. I have no idea. But I do know that he's a prime target. It's just fascinating to me that they chose this particular location. This individual went about it in this manner because I agree with all of the other panelists. I think this guy has some weapons familiarity, but he is in no way a pro. If he had been a pro, we would not have seen the video last that long. This guy dropped.
- [35:30]
Nancy Grace
I hope you're sitting down. You may need to lay down for what you're about to hear. Take a listen.
- [35:35]
Legal Analyst
The suspect was reportedly spotted outside a public housing project roughly three miles from the crime scene at 5am carrying what looked like an E bike battery. He's then seen again checking out at Starbucks not far from the Hilton just minutes before the attack. It's unclear what exactly the suspect purchased, but police believe A water bottle and candy wrapper left at the crime scene may belong to the shooter and are testing the items for latent fingerprints and DNA.
- [35:58]
Nancy Grace
The next thing we're going to hear, Lauren Collins, is that the shooter used a credit card. I mean, he hung out at a Starbucks just before the shooting and, of course, places himself at a public housing project. Yeah, that's right. Blame the people of the housing project, somehow drag that into it. I guarantee you that was orchestrated three miles from the scene with what looked to be carrying an E bike battery in case his E bike crapped out on him. Now, at first, this is reported to be a city bike, the kind that are easily accessed all around New York City. Now we're hearing it may not be a city bike. That said, then he's at Starbucks just beside the Hilton, minutes before the attack, staring straight into the surveillance cameras. So there's not just a water bottle, he leaves behind a candy wrapper. Somebody needs a bit of honey. Somebody wants a Starburst before a murder.
- [36:52]
Lauren Conlon
Yes, and there also have been reports that NYPD believes that he may have actually taken the subway from the Upper west side to Midtown and to that Starbucks.
- [37:03]
Nancy Grace
Wait, then if he was on the Upper west side, then he's spotted at a housing project. There's not a housing project on the Upper west side, okay? That's where all the rich people live. They'll look down on Central Park. There's not a housing project there. So does he leave the Upper west to go to a housing project to be spotted and then go to the Starbucks?
- [37:25]
Lauren Conlon
Well, that's what police are trying to figure out.
- [37:27]
Kayla Brantley
And I'm idiot.
- [37:29]
Lauren Conlon
Well, I'm hoping that he did take the subway, because Mayor Eric Adams did implement more cameras earlier this year.
- [37:35]
Nancy Grace
Okay, I got a lot of surveillance on this guy, but you're right. Subway would help me figure out where he's coming from, where he's going and how he knows those paths. I'm still flummoxed by the fact that he would leave a water bottle with his DNA on it, a candy wrapper, take a bite, no gloves, has a pretend pro shooter stance, and has engraved bullets. For Pete's sake. Why not just throw down your driver's license before you leave? Okay, now we hear about a potential eyewitness that goes on the run.
- [38:15]
Legal Analyst
Police still have not identified the eyewitness who ran from the scene as Thompson was gunned down. A woman dressed in dark clothing and holding a coffee cup was standing in a doorway just feet away from Thompson when the shooter opened fire. She runs along the building toward the shooter to avoid the gunfire and disappears from frame. Authorities are asking her to come forward, hoping she may be able to provide new details on the shooter.
- [38:36]
Chief Detective Joe Kenney
There's a cell phone recovered in the alleyway. We're working through that cell phone. Obviously we'll be processing it forensically. And as far as words being exchanged, we do not have audio of the incident. We only have the regular video.
- [38:46]
Nancy Grace
Nothing from witnesses.
- [38:48]
Chief Detective Joe Kenney
Nothing for. Well, there's one witness standing right next to the victim when he was shot. We're still trying to identify that victim. Excuse me. Excuse me. That witness.
- [38:54]
Nancy Grace
And we also learn that law enforcement has turned their attention back home to Minnesota.
- [39:00]
Chief Detective Joe Kenney
Listen, once again, we're looking at everything. We're looking at his social media. We are interviewing employees. We are interviewing family members. We will be speaking to law enforcement in Minnesota.
- [39:15]
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- [39:43]
Nancy Grace
Sequences shortened and simulated crime stories brought
- [39:46]
Crime Stories Narrator
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- [41:58]
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- [42:57]
Nancy Grace
Today. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
- [43:05]
Crime Stories Narrator
Well that sounds like a happy birthday to me. $1.5 million and counting. Wow. He may be counting his money now, but I'm sure his defense attorneys will run right through it. But don't worry, then Mommy and Daddy will fund your defense because they're all multi millionaires. What are the facts we expect to be produced at trial? Mangioni also charged by the Feds and indicted for several counts of stalking and murder through use of a firearm.
- [43:35]
Nancy Grace
But a judge threw out the murder
- [43:37]
Crime Stories Narrator
firearm charge, making him ineligible for the death penalty. Thanks Judge.
- [43:42]
News Reporter
In a stunning federal court smackdown that has sent shock waves through the Department of Justice, the Ivy League educated tech worker accused of executing United Health Care CEO Brian Thompson has officially escaped the threat of the death penalty. U.S. district Judge Margaret Garnett delivered the massive blow to federal prosecutors Friday, gutting the capitol charges against 27 year old Luigi Mangione just minutes before he appeared in a Manhattan courtroom. His attorney, Karen Agnifolo hailed the decision and spoke to reporters outside the courthouse.
- [44:23]
Karen Agnifolo
Just wanted to thank the court for this incredible decision. Want to thank this amazing legal team that we have here. It's really wonderful, all of them, and thank all the people who come out, stand here in the cold and the people who can't come here, all the supporters. We get your letters, we get your emails and we really appreciate all the support.
- [44:45]
Interviewer
Karen, what was Mr. Mancione's reaction when
- [44:47]
Nancy Grace
he learned the death penalty was off the table?
- [44:49]
Karen Agnifolo
We're all very relieved.
- [44:51]
News Reporter
The decision effectively neuters Attorney General Pam Bonney's push for execution in a case the government branded a premeditated cold blooded assassination. Judge Garnett dismissed two counts of murder through use of a firearm, ruling that the underlying charge of interstate stalking does not meet the strict legal definition of a crime of violence required to support a capital conviction. While Garnett acknowledged the ruling might strike the public as, quote, unquote, tortured and strange, given the high profile nature of the slang, she insisted that, quote, the law must be the court's only concern, end quote. Mangione, dressed in tan jail scrubs and shackled at the feet, showed little emotion as the execution bid was dismantled. However, the ruling was not a total wash for the government. In a critical win for the feds, the judge shot down claims that a bungled investigation tainted the arrest. Garnett ruled the mountain of evidence pulled from Mangione's backpack, including the 3D printed pistol, a loaded clip and a macabre so called survival kit, is fully admissible at trial. Prosecutors can also use the defendant's own notebook, which allegedly contained a chilling manifesto and plans to quote, unquote, whack the insurance bigwig. The search was deemed legal under Pennsylvania's inventory protocols, despite Mangione's defense team arguing the warrantless search was a quote, unquote legal quagmire. While federal prosecutors have yet to announce an appeal, Mangione's federal trial is now tentatively set for September 8th. He remains held without bail at the Metropolitan Detention center in Brooklyn, now facing a maximum of life behind bars rather than a date with the needle. Meanwhile, the Manhattan DA is still aggressively pushing for a state murder trial to begin as early as July 1st.
- [47:00]
Nancy Grace
You heard right. Luigi Mangione, as of right now, will not face the death penalty. Judge Margaret Garnett ruled against prosecutors seeking the death penalty. And word to the wise prosecution team, you need to take the judge's ruling up on immediate appeal. I've done it myself when I got a bad evidentiary ruling at trial, I would say, judge, we need a recess. I'm taking this up on immediate appeal, which means I would have somebody in the Appellate Division type out an appeal of the judge's bad ruling and walk it right up the street to the court of appeals. It was like three blocks.
- [47:45]
Crime Stories Narrator
I would not take that lying down, not with facts like these.
- [47:51]
Nancy Grace
What happened to Brian Thompson? Number one, what is the address of your emergency? It's not really an emergency. I just. I have a customer here that some other customers were suspicious of. That he looks like the CEO shooter, New York. Okay, straight out to Kayla Brantley joining us, investigative reporter@large, dailymail.com. did they actually say in court that their client Luigi Mangione, is the victim because his, quote, beautiful, promising life has been derailed?
- [48:27]
Kayla Brantley
Yeah, Nancy, as you mentioned, his team did paint him as someone with a promising future. Now, one thing that had been documented was that Luigi suffered from debilitating back pain. This was something that he went through. He went through back surgery. And one thing that they say here is that the real enemy here is the medical system. And that is one thing that you can definitely expect his legal team to argue.
- [48:54]
Nancy Grace
Could I believe you or my lion eyes control room, Please show me him running along the beach in Hawaii. I've got videos of him lifting up girls and tickling them. It's a video. They're all giggling hysterically, including him. I've got photos of him lounging by the beach. I'd love to see those photos of him hiking in what looks to be a jungle. Rainforest. Oh, he is feeling no pain there. Kayla Brantley, I hope you don't fall for that hook, line and Seeker. Dr. Judy Ho. Did you know that Luigi Mangione is apparently the victim in this scenario? Dr. Judy Ho is joining us. Clinical forensic neuropsychologist, author of the New Rules of Attachment and another bestseller, Stop self sabotage. You need to write one Dr. Judy Ho about, try to tell the truth and then send it. You know, I'll pay for it. And we can send it to Luigi Mangione. He is not the victim here. But, you know, you can't count out the defense attorney, Agnafello. He got Sean Combs off on the major accusations in that indictment. So no matter how ridiculous I may think he sounds, he essentially won that case. Yes, it's his defense team that claims Luigi Mangione is the victim. I want to read it. Dr. Judy Hope. Beautiful, promising life derailed by those irritating murder charges. Judy.
- [50:24]
Dr. Judy Ho
Wow.
- [50:25]
Psychologist
Beautiful, promising life. Nancy, what a narrative. And as you said, even though he's not the victim, I think this is why there has been a fan base, though, because there's these individuals who actually believe maybe he is A victim, that he's some type of antihero, that he's misunderstood. And oftentimes we see this in individuals, individuals who might act charismatically, they just seem to pull people in. And it's weird because a lot of these people who develop this sort of fan fanhood around Luigi, they're kind of thinking, well, maybe I can be a special person in his life. Maybe he'll pay attention to me. Maybe I can even develop a friendship with this person. This person might learn to trust me. It's really interesting, but some of it actually has to do with a self centeredness of people who might actually feel talk to him, that they're hoping to get something special out of it for themselves.
- [51:19]
Nancy Grace
I'm sorry, Dr. Judy Ho. I know you're the clinical and forensic neuropsychologist, but I don't even know what you just said. How can the defense stand up and say this is not about the murder victim. Can we show, please, Brian Thompson walking along and he's gunned down in cold blood, leaving behind two sons and a wife that's the victim. According to prosecutors, it's Luigi Mangione holding a 3D weapon that he made that it took dozens and dozens of hours to make so he can gun down a guy walking to work in the back. You stated, I don't know what that was. Dr. Judy Ho. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I'm just a trial lawyer, didn't understand it, but I think I know some of the people that consider Luigi Mangione to be the victim. And here they are filing in to court. Okay. Oh, what? Luigi fights fascists. Okay, look at this line. Now. Wait till you see the catwalk parade of sad sack women filing in to. They won't even show their face. To get a glimpse of Luigi Mangione. Yes. Keep it going, keep it going because I've got hours of people. Yeah, that was totally walking the catwalk right there. Clamoring to get in, to just bask in the glow of Luigi Mangione. Oh, it keeps going. Yeah, on and on. They had to turn women away. And it's not just women.
- [53:12]
Crime Stories Narrator
Listen.
- [53:13]
Commentator
So this is who police believe was responsible for the United Healthcare CEO Pew. Pew. His name's Luigi. All I can say is, mamma mia, does he need a Mario? I believe it was a great philosophy and poet once said, mama, I'm in love with a criminal. And this type of love isn't rational, it's physical. That was Britney Spears. And I believe we're all feeling that right now. I believe if you're going to superhero like, you better look like one. Okay, this man clearly did that. Did he train at the Marvel Studios with all the other Chris's. Okay, because. Luigi, that's a spicy meatball. I'm so sorry. I believe if we're going to claim to be a Christian nation, that we need to act like one. And part of acting like that is practicing forgiveness. And after a lot of seconds of thinking, I've decided I'm gonna forgive him. I'm ready to forgive him, right? But not forget. Because, I mean, my God, how could you forget an angel like this? I'm not gonna lie. For a while I thought, oh, my God, we're never gonna find him, you know, And. And I was wrong. Because somewhere along the way, the ups and downs, the highs and lows, the masks and no masks, this man, he found a way into our hearts. He did.
- [54:25]
Nancy Grace
I hardly even know where to start with that. That is from Mr. William Sprech on Tick Tock. I'm in love with a criminal and I forgive him. After a few seconds of consideration, Dr. Judy Ho.
- [54:43]
Dr. Judy Ho
It.
- [54:44]
Nancy Grace
I can't say it gets worse, but there's more. Listen. And say there's blood on his hands. When you're the one with the gun who's taking lives for fun, you can't take my man. That's from Scarlet Park. Tick Tock. So it's gone beyond calling him a spicy meatball. These people actually consider Luigi Mangione their man, and they are angry with the feds for prosecuting. What? Have I gone down the rabbit hole? Am I in some crazy, bizarre Alice in Wonderland? What is happening, Dr. Judy Ho?
- [55:40]
Psychologist
I know it seems completely unbelievable, Nancy, but this does happen. People start to idolize these potential. I mean, clearly this is a defendant, right? But they're thinking in their minds, this person is innocent. Maybe I'm going to be their special person. And they're lusting after them the way that they would lust after a celebrity, especially when they see photos and videos that they can start cutting into their own social media. They're developing a fictionalized relationship with him, a fantasy, and essentially completely erasing all of the facts that have been evident in this case. And clearly the defendant's attorneys are trying to paint that picture as well, leaning into it as hard as possible, because they're hoping to influence the public opinion even before a jury is selected so that they can hopefully get him the outcome that he wants, which is apparently to escape a death sentence. Escape prison maybe. I'm not sure exactly what they think is possible. But that's what's so scary about all the positivity that has developed around his Persona in terms of all of these illustrations, the website they set up about him. It's really concerning.
- [56:45]
Nancy Grace
And you know, Cheryl McCollum is joining me. Cold Case Investigative Research Institute founder, author of a brand new book, Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer, Solving the Cold Case of the Flint River Killer's daughter on Amazon. CHERYL okay. Do you remember the night that you and I were out until what, two o' clock in the morning staking out a location where we started, thought Luigi Mangioni was going to be apprehended. Do you remember that night? Because I sure do.
- [57:16]
Bernarda Villona
I do.
- [57:17]
Nancy Grace
How has this gotten so bass acords?
- [57:20]
Dr. Judy Ho
CHERYL Nancy, it is mind boggling that anybody is trying to paint this killer as the victim. I mean, the victim's life was not just promising, it was in full swing. He had a wife and children and a career at the highest level. He had friends and extended family. He had everything going for him. Mangione had none of that. But he took everything from those children. And I'm going to tell you something. When you look at the people that are contacting him, I hope and pray that those 6,000 letters that he's gotten, that 115 a day, that there's some good intel in there too, because he is writing people back. So he's communicating and I hope they're listing every piece of it.
- [58:20]
Nancy Grace
Somehow this has gotten topsy turvy upside down. I haven't even gotten into the legal implications of what is happening in court. I'm just so concerned that one of these nut jobs is going to end up on the ultimate jury and acquit Luigi Mangione under the misconception that he is somehow the victim. Again, in court, his lawyers, and I'm quoting, claim that his beautiful promising life has been derailed by murder charges. It's all about me, me, me, me, me, me. This is a millionaire's son, multi millionaire, who grew up with a silver spoon stuck in his mouth and has been living in a Hawaii high rise on the beach, doing nothing. And yet he's the victim. Can you imagine, Cheryl McCollum, how hard Thompson had to work to get to become the CEO at United Health Care? It wasn't handed to him on a silver platter on top of a Christmas tree like it was Mangioni. He had to work and sacrifice long, long hours to get to where he Got to to be gunned down like a dog on the sidewalk.
- [59:40]
Dr. Judy Ho
Cheryl, Nancy, you cannot compare these two people. That's why I agree with you. This whole thing is upside down. Not only did the victim work and sacrifice, so did his wife. You know what it takes. You know how long David is gone during the day. It's not an eight hour day. It's a 16, 17 hour day. He was playing at the top of his game. There's no doubt about it. Mangioni was giving nothing to a family. He was giving nothing to society. He was contributing zero. And again, what he took cannot even be measured.
- [60:21]
Nancy Grace
If I hear one more person talk about his back pain, that's you, Kayla Brantley. I think my head's gonna blow off because I have videos of him tickling these girls and picking them up just before the shooting. I can't show it because it has the girls faces in it, but he was feeling no pain. But it's all about me, me, me, me, me. Why me? And he's certainly not the first. Let me refresh your recollection. As we say in court with Bride killer Jamie Lee Komorowski. Listen to her. I still just don't know why this
- [60:59]
Dave Mack
had to happen to me.
- [61:01]
Nancy Grace
Because bad things happen to good people, honey.
- [61:05]
Joe Scott Morgan
That's why.
- [61:06]
Bill Daly
It's just. It's just fate. It's just something that happened to you.
- [61:11]
Joe Scott Morgan
And we are going to deal with it as best we can.
- [61:14]
Nancy Grace
Okay? Dave Mack joining me, crime stories, investigative reporter. You know who the Bride Killer is, right? Jamie Lee Komorowski. She's guilty. She got totally stinking drunk and plowed into a beautiful bride, leaving her wedding reception with the groom and killed her. And there she is behind bars going, why is this happening to me?
- [61:42]
Dave Mack
One look and listen to her father, Nancy. What does he say? Well, bad things happen to good people. No, they don't. You just killed somebody because of your own actions. But see, we've got a whole group of people now that never want to admit they did anything wrong. Everything is on them. How can you possibly think Manjoni is sitting here saying his life is derailed? Well, he destroyed another life and another family. Komorowski sitting in jail. Why is this happening to me?
- [62:13]
Dr. Judy Ho
Well, why not?
- [62:14]
Dave Mack
What did you expect would happen? Sick of this, Nancy. It's getting really tiresome.
- [62:18]
Nancy Grace
And there is her victim, Samantha Miller, in her wedding dress just before she's mowed down dead by Jamie Lee Komorowski. And here's. I guess this would have to be the Miss Universe of why me? Jodi Arias. Check her out. She is more concerned about her makeup as she is approaching trial in the brutal stabbing and shooting death of her fiance, Travis Alexander, who was stabbed at least 29 times. Joe Scott, Morgan and I have argued about that. I say it was more than that. Check it out. Jodi Arias, you should have at least done your makeup before you speak to police about murdering your fiance when he broke up and started seeing someone else. That earlier video from 48 Hours just got Morgan. Professor, Forensics. Do you recall Travis Alexander's death? Hey, stay on that video. Because as they're about to question her about what could have happened to Travis Alexander, she starts singing and there you go. Does a headstand and bemoans the fact she doesn't have on her lip gloss. Talk about me, me, me. Jo Scott, what happened to Travis?
- [63:29]
Interviewer
Yeah, he was brutally murdered, Nancy. She had him stripped down nude, taking a shower, taking dirty pictures, if you will. And while his back is turned, she takes a knife and plunges it into his back, over and over and over again. When he turns around to defend himself, to try to parry her, stabs at him. He gets stabbed in the chest as well. And if it wasn't enough, after he spits up blood onto his sink, he crawls, tries to crawl away from her down the hallway. She straddles him and cuts his throat from ear to ear. And the coup de grace, she shoots him after he is dead. That's the kind of human that you're looking at right here. She's absolutely disgusting.
- [64:20]
Nancy Grace
And it's all about me, me, me. Just got Morgan, you've seen it all. I'm going to try to show you something haven't seen yet. Speaking of me, me, me. And criminal defendants focusing only on themselves and not their victims. There is the drunk, stinking drunk ada Assistant District Attorney Devin Flanagan. Listen to her. Protocol is if I ask you to
- [64:48]
Health Expert / Advertiser
turn off the body cam, you have
- [64:49]
Lauren Conlon
to turn it off.
- [64:50]
Nancy Grace
And that's your protocol. She's lawyer, so she knows.
- [64:53]
Interviewer
Well, that's lawyer stuff, so. That's not true. So we gotta go.
- [64:56]
Nancy Grace
No, it is. That's. That's law. I'm an ag. I'm an ag.
- [65:00]
Interviewer
Good for you. I don't give a. Let's go.
- [65:02]
Nancy Grace
Those two were kicked out of, I think it was a bar for being drunk and belligerent. Then you've got. Oh, gosh, she's been called the screaming banshee. And do you hear going, I'm an ada. I'm an ada. Every sentence starts With I, I, I listen to this woman, Jo Scott. He needs to not touch me.
- [65:22]
Dr. Judy Ho
If he wants to call us all,
- [65:24]
Nancy Grace
we're gonna go through that route. No, he wants to go through assault. No, we're not doing that.
- [65:31]
Dr. Judy Ho
Then.
- [65:32]
Nancy Grace
No, he, he claims I assaulted him. Nope, we're not doing that. We're not doing that. And then, of course, maybe this one beats Jodi Arias. No, no. I'm gonna have to go with Luigi Mangion and his beautiful life derailed. I'm sure you recall Shayna Hubers that gave her ex boyfriend the, quote, nose job he always wanted with a handgun.
- [65:57]
Dr. Judy Ho
Listen, he's very vain. One of our last conversations we had that was good was that he wants my best friend who's a dentist to do a semester and wants to get a nose job. Just that kind of person. And I'm right here.
- [66:10]
Nancy Grace
I gave him his nose job. He wanted
- [66:14]
Dr. Judy Ho
to marry me. If they know that I killed a boyfriend and helped. Not funny. But I'm not your typical murderer.
- [66:25]
Nancy Grace
No, you know, Joe. Scott Morgan, professor of forensics and death investigator. Your forte is dead bodies and causes of death and modes of death. Let me go to special guest. Joining us now, Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist. Joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Dr. Angie Arnold. What is that? I don't know if you saw this for yourself, but Mangione's defense team is actually arguing his life was derailed by the murder charges.
- [66:57]
Dr. Angela Arnold
You know, Nancy, my thought is that's all they've got. Who cares if his life was derailed? He is accused of murdering someone. Maybe his life should be derailed. But the way I feel about this is, Nancy, that's all they've got to say. That is the only thing they've got.
- [67:17]
Nancy Grace
Let's talk about the facts and the law. Listen.
- [67:21]
Legal Analyst
Taking orders as she tells the operator, I have a customer here that some other customers were suspicious of that he looks like the CEO shooter in New York. And they're just really upset and come to me and I'm like, I can't approach him. The manager continues working and can be heard talking about bagels. At one point shouting, one of them is no butter. The 911 operator, Emily States, testifies about the call and is heard to ask for a description. With the manager replying, the only thing you can see is the eyebrows.
- [67:51]
Nancy Grace
Joining us is Sky Lazaro. She's a veteran criminal defense attorney. She's practicing in both. She's practicing both state and federal court. She is with Ray Quinny and Nebeker. Sky, thank you for being with us. If the defense is arguing that Luigi Mangione was illegally arrested, the 911 call occurred before the arrest. So what could be the possible grounds for suppressing that call by the McDonald's manager?
- [68:23]
Sky Lazaro
I think they're going to have a really hard time keeping the 911 call out. I, I can understand it from a defense perspective. You have to try. But when it comes to 911 calls, as long as you can lay the foundation for it, it's probably coming in.
- [68:37]
Nancy Grace
I can tell you one thing. I know Sky Lazaro, that they hate about this 911 call. We had the same thing happen in the Idaho slayings of four beautiful Idaho University students where Dylan Mortensen described Brian Kohberger's freaky bushy eyebrows.
- [68:59]
Dr. Angela Arnold
Listen, I just remember seeing this figure that was like, not fat, obviously, but more of like the skinnier tongue build
- [69:06]
Nancy Grace
and some mask on.
- [69:08]
Dr. Angela Arnold
I don't know what the mask exactly was, but when I thought about it, it was just like covering here and here. I don't know if it's covering his mouth, his nose, or below his mouth and nose. I just remember knowing that he was white, but I didn't know how he was white. I just knew he was. And this knowing there's like, I knew he looked at me because of a bushy eyebrow. That's all I remember.
- [69:26]
Nancy Grace
Joining me is Tom Smith, former NYPD detective, 30 years now, star of the Gold Shields podcast. And he covered the very same streets where Brian Thompson was gunned down in cold blood. You know, I have had a killer identified. He was a chef, by the way, identified by a particular limp that he had. I've had a bank robber identified because he walked slew footed, in other words, like a duck. There are all sorts of ways to identify someone. It can be by voice that it could be any number of things. In this case, the McDonald's manager said Bushy eyebrows, and there's no doubt that's Luigi Mangione. They hate it. They hate that identification, Tom.
- [70:25]
Tom Smith
Yeah, they do. Because, you know, it shows how important Nancy and we did this when we first started talking about this case, how important the videos and all the photos were to get out to the public, even if his face was covered, even if he was in a cab or whatever it was because those eyebrows jumped off the page to everyone who looked at it. That was the number one thing that everyone looked at as a, a looking point and identification point when it came to him. And it just showed that the quicker they got Those photos out, the better. It was in the end of this.
- [71:01]
Nancy Grace
You know, I'm very curious about this. The fact that he is identified at McDonald's by his eyebrows, among other things. Let's see the pictures of the McDonald's. There you go. There he is at McDonald's. But Sky Lazari, don't you think that the defense should be more concerned about the fact that he can be identified at the time of the killing? He showed his face repeatedly.
- [71:28]
Sky Lazaro
I agree with you. He probably should have been a little bit more careful at that time. And that should be the stuff they're seeking to exclude. And maybe they will. I think as it goes to the 911 call, the defense's probably only argument is that these are witnesses who identified him not from the shooting. They weren't there that night. So they can't say, I saw him do the shooting. They just want to exclude it because he's at the McDonald's. The problem is they get to the McDonald's and it turns out to be him.
- [71:57]
Nancy Grace
Speaking of getting to the McDonald's, the defense is arguing that while he wasn't really under arrest, he was kind of under arrest because so many police started showing up and massing at the McDonald's. They were concerned, if this is Luigi Mangione, the health care assassin, he's probably armed. And as a matter of fact, he was. He was armed. There was a weapon in his backpack sitting right there with him. So they were. Right. Now, what the defense is arguing is that having multiple. Multiple police officers show up is tantamount equal to arresting him. Why do we care? Because police engage in a conversation with him to identify him. And he spilled a lot of information in that conversation. The state says it was before his arrest. Why does it matter? Because a statement taken while you are in custody without Miranda will be suppressed. So they want the judge to believe that because several police officers showed up at McDonald's, the Mangione was effectively under arrest and any statements he made pre Miranda should be suppressed. That's not going to happen. When I walk into let's just pretend a Chipotle and all the Atlanta PD are in there getting salad. I don't feel like I'm under arrest. Think about it. Listen.
- [73:26]
Legal Analyst
Manjoni stares at monitors showing his arrest at McDonald's. Manjoni sits to eat breakfast at 9:03. Eleven minutes later, the 911 call is made. 9:28, Two police officers show up and begin talking to Mangione. The restaurant slowly begins to fill with police until 9:42, when at least eight officers are visible on the recording. The defense claims packing the place with police amounts to unlawful detention prior to Mangione's arrest. Agnifolo argues police surrounding MANJONI and the McDonald's is tantamount to illegally detaining the alleged killer. Agniphilo also takes exception with the way officers treated Mangioni's backpack during the arrest, claiming it was warrantlessly searched on the scene.
- [74:06]
Nancy Grace
In other words, they looked in his backpack. Cheryl McCollum joining me. She is not only a crime scene investigator and founder of the Cold Case Research Institute, but she is also the star of a hit podcast, which I actually put on a loop sometimes. Sheryl McCollum, Zone 7. Sheryl McCollum, has it ever dawned on you when you go into McDonald's for a cup of coffee that you're arresting somebody, that your mere presence equals an arrest? Because that's what they're arguing and what they're trying to do, Cheryl, is get out from under what Mangioni said to police pre Miranda and them finding evidence in his back.
- [74:50]
Dr. Judy Ho
I think the body cam is going to be so critical here because it's going to show all of his actions. It's going to, you know, show the world that he stood up and thought he was under arrest. Only a guilty person would think that. Nancy what the defense is doing is they're basically, look, you use manure to make something grow, right? So they are planting and cultivating and trying to grow this story that he's the victim, that he didn't do anything, that he was under arrest and now we can't use anything and it's just bs.
- [75:23]
Nancy Grace
While this legal warfare is taking place in a courtroom, Mangione's attorneys continue to insist that he's the victim.
- [75:33]
Karen Agnifolo
He's a young man and he is being treated like a human ping pong ball between two warring jurisdictions here. And they are literally treating him like he is like some sort of political fodder, like some sort of spectacle. He was on display for everyone to see in the biggest staged perp walk I've ever seen in my career. There was no reason for the NYPD and everybody to have these big assault rifles that frankly, I had no idea was in their arsenal. And to have all of these, the press there, the media there, it was like perfectly choreographed. And what was the New York City mayor doing at this press conference?
- [76:13]
Psychologist
He is a walking, talking contradiction.
- [76:15]
Dr. Judy Ho
He supposedly is again, this wealthy CEO, yet he comes from money.
- [76:21]
Nancy Grace
This is a guy living in a High rise in Honolulu, waking up to the beach every morning. Did you wake up to a beach view this morning? Because I sure did not. The Luigi man defense is fighting tooth and nail to keep out what happened in that McDonald's. And as Cheryl McCollum has pointed out, that body cam is going to be so significant because it doesn't matter what the state says. It doesn't matter what the defense says or how much Luigi Mangione claims he's the victim. What matters is what really happened inside that McDonald's. They're not going to get the 911 call suppressed. That's not happening. But what happened in the McDonald's. Is the state going to lose valuable evidence on a legal technicality? Why is it they want that backpack suppressed? Straight out to investigator at large for DailyMail.com, kayla Brantley. What was in the backpack, Nancy?
- [77:18]
Kayla Brantley
There was a 3D printed gun. It's a handgun. Which is believed to could possibly be the murder weapon. There was a notebook with handwritten notes in it. Then he also had a knife on him, which was discovered about 20 minutes. So he was armed. And at that point he was considered very dangerous.
- [77:36]
Nancy Grace
Okay, hold on. What did you say was written? Imagioni's spiral notebook that was in his
- [77:42]
Kayla Brantley
backpack that he wanted. And he used the word whack. The health care CEO, Whack meaning kill, hurt, destroy.
- [77:51]
Nancy Grace
No wonder they want it suppressed. To Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Tell me about the three 3D gun, sometimes called a ghost gun.
- [78:02]
Dave Mack
Well, Nancy, you know, we've been. We have not been given the very specifics of what type of gun. We know it's a pistol, but we don't know the exact name of it. 3D printed firearms take a massive amount of time and filament, far more than any other. The Liberator is the most common and it's the easiest one to print and takes the shortest amount of time. The Liberator takes 30 hours of constant printing with non stop printing. Nancy. 30 hours to print. The easiest of all the pistols.
- [78:34]
Nancy Grace
Tom Smith. Here's the thing with a ghost gun. It's made on a 3D printer, Tom. It's unserialized. That's why they're so popular amongst criminals. You think grandpa has his long gun, his shotgun under the bed? You think it's a 3D printed gun? No, it's got a serial number. Why is it so serious that a ghost gun is unserialized?
- [79:04]
Tom Smith
Well, because you can't trace it no matter what you do with that weapon. It cannot be traced back to you. And that is why so many criminals and Luigi Maggione, of course, went to the, the lengths that he did to make that gun, because that is the predetermined and premeditation of it already. He's already thinking ahead of that gun not being traced to him. And that is part of this as well.
- [79:29]
Nancy Grace
Tom Smith, you're exactly correct. To Joseph Scott Morgan. Let me introduce him formally. He is a professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University with an incredible criminal procedure program. He's the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is a death investigator that has handled thousands of death scenes and he's the star of hit podcast Body Bags of Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, what is a suppressor or commonly known as a silencer?
- [80:02]
Interviewer
Yeah, I stay away from the term silencer because no weapon is silenced, it is suppressed. That means that the crack of the sound, you're talking about a perhaps supersonic round, it's traveling, you know, past the speed of sound. So what you want to do is reduce that sound that's put forth from the muzzle. If you take a close look, I'm glad that you have that image. You take a close look at that weapon there. The end of that muzzle is actually threaded. What that means is, is that it's adaptable. It's adaptable to contain a suppressor. The suppressor is displayed here. It's that long, black, cylindrical. It can be screwed on on the end. Well, you want to knock down the sound so it's not going to draw attention to you when you fire this thing. Because let's just say that it is a non suppressed weapon. This thing's going to echo through the canyons down there in Manhattan, through all of those buildings. You'll still hear a sound, but it'll be a slight crack. It's not like it's portrayed in movies. Okay, but it will reduce the sound, it doesn't completely eliminate it. And the purpose of this is so that you're not going to draw attention to anyone. It does reduce, say, some of the capabilities of the weapon as far as the effectiveness of it at a greater range. But this is, this is not a close range. As a matter of fact, if we were to look at the body here, it would be classified as indeterminate because you're not going to have any kind of soot deposition gun, unpurned gunpowder, it will have fallen away by that time. But this is not too distant of a shot. You'll still have that same muzzle velocity striking into Brian Thompson's body, it's effectively lethal.
- [81:47]
Nancy Grace
Joining me now, the star of Zone 7 podcast, Cheryl McCollum is with us. Cheryl, who has unserialized guns and silencers, criminals.
- [82:03]
Dr. Judy Ho
And Nancy, there's another thing. Even though this is a 3D printed weapon, it's still going to leave markings on casons and they're going to be able to be, you know, determined that this weapon fired the bullets that murdered Brian Thompson. So forensically it's not going to get you out of trouble. They may not can trace it to a manufacturer, to a buyer, but they can absolutely determine that that bullet was fired by that weapon.
- [82:34]
Nancy Grace
Cheryl McCollum, you're so right. And Tom Smith, this is like a
- [82:39]
Crime Stories Narrator
fish in water for you.
- [82:40]
Nancy Grace
Every day you were getting off the streets of Manhattan, guns to match with bullets, bullets that were literally dug out of victims bodies. And Cheryl said it right, A bullet hurls down the barrel of a gun. That gun might look like all the other guns in the gun store showcase, but it's not. Because inside the barrel the metal has cooled in a certain way and it leaves ridges and imperfections on the inside of the barrel. And as that bullet shoots down the barrel, it is forever marked by those imperfections. So when you take the murder weapon to the crime lab and you shoot a bullet through the murder weapon and you take the known bullet dug out of the victim and you put it under a microscope next to the one you just shot, it's like a fingerprint. No other gun, be it a 3D printed gun, a grandma's Bessie's out from under her mattress, you can track and identify like a fingerprint that bullet came from that gun. Isn't that true?
- [84:02]
Tom Smith
100 and that's the best way to say it. It's, it's the gun's fingerprint and the ballistic check of that in the twist marks and all of that is what you match up. And it is a fingerprint that is unmatchable, you know, to anyone else. It is strictly to that weapon that you will match up the weapon taken or the round taken out of the victim and match it up. And that is damaging when it comes to court.
- [84:28]
Nancy Grace
Oh yeah, and Tom Smith, that is why they are fighting to the death in court, to keep that jury from ever knowing of a ballistics match, that his 3D printed gun is the murder weapon. Listen to Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan District Attorney. For nearly an hour we alleged the defendant waited in the area near the Hilton hotel waiting for Mr. Thompson to
- [84:56]
Interviewer
appear from 6:38am to 6:44am the defendant stood across from the entrance of the
- [85:02]
Tom Smith
hotel on West 54th Street.
- [85:04]
Interviewer
When he saw Mr. Thompson, he crossed the street and approached him from behind.
- [85:09]
Nancy Grace
Kayla Brantley, Daily Mail the defense for Luigi Mangiani is also trying to suppress statements he allegedly made to his guards. He had special guards behind bars so nothing would happen to him like it did to Epstein. So let's first talk about Thomas Rivers, the former British infantryman who was minding Mangione. What did Mangioni allegedly say to Rivers?
- [85:38]
Kayla Brantley
Nancy Luigi was held for 10 days in Pennsylvania and he had spoken about being very disappointed that he was being compared to the Unabomber. He also said that mainstream media was more focused on crime and that when you looked at social media, they were really more focused about the health care industry, which, according to this officer, is what Luigi said this was really about.
- [86:03]
Nancy Grace
Wow, Sounds like a confession to me. Skylazaro Oopsie.
- [86:07]
Sky Lazaro
Nancy I agree and disagree. Here's the problem. They put these guys in a situation like that in solitary where they can't talk to anybody else. And the other thing is that we know these officers didn't document any of this. They're supposed to be taking notes seven times an hour about what he's doing and his well being and they don't write down anything like he just made an omission.
- [86:32]
Nancy Grace
Skyla's alright. Did you say it's a problem he was being held in solitary? You know who else is in solitary? Brian Thompson. Except his is a casket. So you're telling me again, I can't believe you're buying into this guy Lazaro that he's the one that's being tormented. You know what else he told Rivers? That Rivers should really read Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley, which is all about psychedelic drug trips and mystical interpretations. Needless to say, Rivers did not read the book. But there is another guard that he talked to. This is the one I'm really interested in.
- [87:15]
Legal Analyst
Listen, Officer Matt Henry wasn't chatty with the alleged killer. That doesn't stop Manjoni from telling Henry he was caught with a 3D printed firearm, the weapon used to murder CEO Brian Thompson. Attorney Mark Agnifolo challenges Henry, saying, so he just blurted out to you that he had a 3D printed pistol? Henry dryly replies yes.
- [87:35]
Nancy Grace
To Dr. Angela Arnold joining us. She's a renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction@AngelaArnold.com Former professor of psychiatry. It goes on and on. Former medical director at the Psychiatric OBGYN Clinic at Grady, which Never has a lack of business. I found a lot of witnesses and victims at Grady Hospital. Dr. Angela Arnold. Why is this so hard? I bet a jury's not going to have a hard time believing this. That Luigi Mangioni, who has had a lifetime of entitlement, would blab to his guards, why, they're his new friends. They would never betray him. Right?
- [88:16]
Dr. Angela Arnold
Yeah. Oh, sure. And you know, Nancy, he probably suffers from some sort of personality disorder in which he thinks about himself an awful lot. So he really doesn't. He may not see that he's done anything wrong, and he probably hasn't suffered any consequences for any of his actions in the past. And so that would make him more likely to almost be bragging about what he's done and to let other people know what he's done.
- [88:46]
Nancy Grace
This is.
- [88:46]
Dr. Angela Arnold
This is typical for his behavior, in all likelihood, throughout his existence.
- [88:52]
Nancy Grace
Tom Smith. Joining me, former NYPD detective, 30 years now, star co host of Gold Shields podcast. Tom, what is wrong with rich people? Do they think they can just get away with everything? Anything and everything they can confess, they can say, yeah, they caught me with the 3D printed gun, which is the murder weapon. What is wrong with them? Have you noticed the same sense of entitlement sometimes does them in because they think they can buy off everybody, that everybody wants to be their friend, but these two guards do not want to be his friend.
- [89:35]
Tom Smith
Yeah, they. They've lived their whole life like this, Nancy. You know, they've gotten what they wanted, they needed to pay for it. Or the power that they have has influenced someone's decision into what they're getting or what they're doing, and they just think that holds true for every aspect of their life, including killing someone. I mean, that's how deranged they are when it comes to the entitlement that they believe they are owed when it comes to murder or. Or, you know, killing a bride. We did that show. You know, it's just constant, and it just keeps coming up, and it's absolutely disgusting.
- [90:11]
Nancy Grace
Tom, I want you to look at a picture. If I can get the control room to put it up for me, Dig through those files. I want to see the picture of allegedly Mangioni, who is presumed innocent, holding up the 3D with the silencer on it, pointing directly at Brian Thompson's back. According to police, he waited an hour for just the right moment.
- [90:37]
Crime Stories Narrator
Well, tonight he's celebrating his 28th birthday behind bars.
- [90:43]
Nancy Grace
Oh, no.
- [90:43]
Crime Stories Narrator
Mommy and Daddy not there to take pictures of you blowing out your candles, Luigi? I guess you'll just have to keep warm with that $1.5 million you've stockpiled from donors.
- [90:55]
Nancy Grace
Who are these people?
- [90:58]
Crime Stories Narrator
We wait as justice unfolds.
- [91:00]
Nancy Grace
Nancy Grace Crime Stories Signing off Good luck.
- [91:10]
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Nancy Grace
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Nancy Grace
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Nancy Grace
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