HELL PIX: HORROR PHOTOS INSIDE IDAHO MURDERS AFTER KOHBERGER SLAUGHTERS STUDENTS, PARENTS SUE

Summary

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: HELL PIX: HORROR PHOTOS INSIDE IDAHO MURDERS AFTER KOHBERGER SLAUGHTERS STUDENTS, PARENTS SUE

Date: January 23, 2026
Host: Nancy Grace
Guests: Christy and Steve Gonsalves (parents of victim Kaylee Goncalves), Jo Scott Morgan, Dr. Bethany Marshall, Dave Mack, Susan Hendricks, Chris McDonough, Howard Blum, Eric Faddis

---

Episode Overview

This episode addresses the deeply distressing leak and subsequent removal of crime scene photos from the Idaho student murders perpetrated by Bryan Kohberger. Nancy Grace engages with the Goncalves parents, legal and forensic experts, and investigative journalists to examine the impact of the leaked photographs, the legal aftermath, and further controversy surrounding Kohberger’s family and Washington State University’s alleged negligence in allowing dangerous conduct to escalate unchecked. The conversation is raw, emotional, and sharply critical of the systems and individuals who have retraumatized the victims’ families.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Horror of the Leaked Crime Scene Photos

• Nancy Grace opens the episode by describing the leak of horrific crime scene photos from the Idaho student murders, discussing how the images were briefly posted on the Idaho State Police website before being scrubbed (00:35).
  • “Why were those photos leaked on the Idaho State Police website and then quickly scrubbed away?...Do you blame [the parents] for suing?” — Nancy Grace (00:35)
• Christy and Steve Gonsalves recount the shock and devastation upon learning the photos made it online, some showing unredacted images of their daughter and other victims (03:46).
  • “One of the Idaho State Police detectives called Olivia and told her that the photos were coming out...by the time she got off the phone, she was calling me in a panic...they were already on the website.” — Christy Gonsalves (03:46)
• The parents underline that once the images were public, anyone quick enough to download them now possesses intensely personal, traumatic material.

2. Impact on the Families: Trauma and Exploitation

• Nancy and the Gonsalves family share personal trauma over witnessing or even hearing about these images.
  • Nancy relates her own experience as a survivor, reinforcing her empathy for the families (07:18).
  • “It’s hard to unsee. And I knew that. I knew what would happen.” — Christy Gonsalves (08:34)
• The parents express frustration at the system’s lack of protection and the exploitation of victim’s deaths for entertainment and profit.
  • “It’s not true crime anymore, it’s troll crime...What people do with those photos nowadays is what the real problem is.” — Christy Gonsalves (09:37)
  • “They’re making a profit off your dead loved ones.” — Steve Gonsalves (10:10)
• Nancy and panelists condemn the phenomenon of “blood money” in true crime media, criticizing those monetizing crime scene and autopsy photos.

3. Obligation and Failure of Law Enforcement and University

• The discussion details how the families were made aware of the photos only after minimal, last-minute warning—highlighting official negligence and lack of empathy.
• The lawsuit against Washington State University is explored, focusing on the institution’s failure to intervene despite at least 13 formal complaints against Kohberger:
  • “He should have been thrown out before he ever killed these kids. That’s the truth.” — Steve Gonsalves (39:36)
  • “Female students avoided being left alone with him, and in fact, one warned he had the potential to become a future rapist.” — Nancy Grace (41:59)
  • “They did not use their own internal risk assessment procedure to protect these victims, it’s just shocking.” — Dr. Bethany Marshall (41:36)

4. Victim-Blaming and Kohberger Family’s Narrative

• The episode critiques a New York Times article featuring Bryan Kohberger’s sister, “Mel”, who expresses her family’s pain and maintains her brother’s innocence in the media spotlight.
  • Nancy and the Gonsalveses see this as tone-deaf and dismissive of the real victims’ suffering.
  • “They could still talk to him...They could write to him. They could go visit him. He’s still breathing.” — Christy Gonsalves (15:49)
  • “My kids would be...dead to our family...I tell all my kids, if you do something that atrocious...you’re done.” — Steve Gonsalves (15:49)
• The panel questions the plausibility of the family’s “ignorance,” citing suspicious phone activity immediately post-murders and the family's actions shielding Kohberger.

5. Analysis of the Crime Scene Photos

• The only image of “probative value” was that of the knife sheath, a crucial piece of evidence linking Kohberger to the murders (29:19).
  • “There was one of the photos, Nancy, this shows one of the girls’ hair in the blood. And all I could think of was my own daughters." — Dave Mack (29:19)
• Forensic analysis reveals the violence’s brutality—20+ stab wounds to some victims, massive bloodshed, and a terrifying struggle.
  • “It’s in excess of 20. And here’s the problem, you can’t actually count them accurately because there’s cross communication between the injuries...” — Jo Scott Morgan (30:46)

6. Societal Call for Change

• The families and panelists call out a broader issue: lack of empathy, irresponsible social media behavior, and institutions prioritizing liability over safety.
  • “Just everybody’s a news network but they never...have the education to be a journalist.” — Steve Gonsalves (26:13)
  • “There is profound disregard for the families...these people who are in charge of these ghoulish pictures...they have profound disregard for the family, too.” — Dr. Bethany Marshall (33:31)
• Nancy Grace presses for accountability, both in legal terms and in the court of public conscience.
  • “Right is right and wrong is wrong and there’s no excuse for that...As I tell my children if it feels wrong, it is wrong.” — Nancy Grace (26:38)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On exploitation:
  “It’s not true crime anymore, it’s troll crime.” — Christy Gonsalves (09:37)

• On university failure:
  “He should have been thrown out before he ever killed these kids. That’s the truth.” — Steve Gonsalves (39:36)

• On the only probative image:
  “The only photo that I saw of any probative value...is the knife she found under a victim’s body.” — Nancy Grace (29:19)

• Nancy’s personal connection:
  “That one moment has crystallized in my mind after all these years. So I don’t know how you can even close your eyes and go to sleep at night after you’ve seen the crime scene photos that were leaked...” — Nancy Grace (07:18)

• On the Kohberger family’s claims:
  “They could still talk to him...He’s still breathing.” — Christy Gonsalves (15:49)
  “The family knew nothing? …I don’t buy that at all.” — Howard Blum (48:29)

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• Introduction & Summary of Case: 00:35–01:35
• Gonsalveses on Learning About the Leak: 03:46–05:09
• Exploitative Nature of True Crime Media: 09:04–10:26
• Personal Trauma on Seeing the Photos: 08:34–12:27
• Response to the Kohberger Family’s NYT Interview: 14:56–18:27
• Suspicious Post-Murder Phone Activity: 22:54–24:58
• Call for Societal Change: 25:55–26:38
• Forensic Description of Photos' Brutality: 29:19–30:46
• WSU Lawsuit and Institutional Responsibility: 39:34–44:30
• Red Flags Ignored by WSU: 40:02–43:07
• Critique of Kohberger Family's Narrative: 47:58–49:10

---

Content Summary Flow

1. The Gonsalves family's pain is central—detailing the shock of seeing crime scene photos online and their ongoing fight for respect and justice.
2. Discussion of official mishandling—stemming from police photo leaks to the failure of WSU to act on clear warning signs about Kohberger.
3. Outrage at the monetization and spread of violent crime materials.
4. Critique and disbelief towards Kohberger’s family for their media narrative and insistence they knew nothing.
5. Strong calls from the families and panelists for institutional and societal change, emphasizing respect for victims, transparency, and accountability.

---

Final Messages

• Emotional pleas for an end to the revictimization of families through careless media and legal practices.
• Calls for university and law enforcement reform to better protect students.
• Uncompromising stance by Nancy Grace and guests: “Right is right. Wrong is wrong. There is no excuse for hurting the victim’s families for your own monetary gain.” (26:38)

---

This summary captures the compassion, anger, and call to action that permeates Nancy Grace’s coverage, providing crucial context for anyone needing a comprehensive understanding of the episode’s content, urgency, and stakes.

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human Premier protein.

[Christy Gonsalves]

It's for getting after life, not just Fitness.

[Nancy Grace]

With 30 grams of protein, 160 calories.

[Christy Gonsalves]

And no sugar added, helping people fuel their joyful lives.

[Nancy Grace]

With Premier Protein, you can say yes to more.

[Christy Gonsalves]

Whether it's crushing a big presentation at.

[Nancy Grace]

Work, building an epic fort with the.

[Christy Gonsalves]

Kids, or hitting the hiking trail with friends, Premier Protein offers delicious flavors like cafe latte, chocolate, caramel, vanilla, strawberry and.

[Nancy Grace]

Cake batter, to name a few.

[Christy Gonsalves]

Find your Favorite Flavors at premierprotein.com Crime.

[Nancy Grace]

Stories with Nancy Grace. Hell pics. Pictures straight from hell. Horrific photos from inside the brutal Idaho murders of four beautiful young University of Idaho students. Why were those photos leaked on the Idaho State Police website and then quickly scrubbed away? Hello, everybody. Saw it this after Brian Kohberger slaughters innocent students, the parents sue. Do you blame them? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us inside the Bryan Kohberger murder scene. The truth of what happened that night when four beautiful University of Idaho students were slaughtered in their own beds.

[Jo Scott Morgan]

This would have been a bloodbath where they were killed.

[Nancy Grace]

Now the family that's still dealing with the brutal murder of their children are having to take on a fight. So these vile photos are not released. What in the hay? Haven't the victims families been through enough? I cannot imagine. Last night, under immense pressure for our program to show the photos, I looked at them. I had to get on the phone with our investigative reporter Dave Mack and actually broke down and cried looking at these photos. And there is no way in he double L that we're going to go along with leaked photos that just destroy the families. I saw only one probative photo of what was leaked. The rest was just gore. One probative photo that actually meant something, that proved something, and that was the location of the knife sheath. Joining me right now, two very special guests, the parents of the beautiful Kelly Goncalves. Thank you to both of you for being with us. It means so much that at this moment, when you are under siege again, again, that you take time to be with us tonight. So thank you.

[Christy Gonsalves]

Thank you.

[Nancy Grace]

I've got so much to talk to you about. Of course. Brian Kohberger's sister does a New York Times article whining about how hurt she is and the pain her family's going through. Really. But before I get to her, what about these photos? When did you. Now this is what we're learning, Christy. We are learning that the Idaho State Police put these on their website and then quickly went ruh roh and scrubbed the whole thing. They were leaked onto the website. What did, what happened when you first learned these pictures from hell hell had been released?

[Christy Gonsalves]

Well, actually one of the Idaho State Police detectives called Olivia and told her that the photos were coming out and they were a different entity as the other ones were that were underneath the order that the Laramie's and the Chapins won being able to not show bodies or blood. And these were going to be a little different. The bodies were going to be redacted, but the crime scene was going to be pretty evident. So this entity called Olivia. By the time she got off the phone, she was calling me in a panic and telling me that they were coming out, they were coming out and they were out, they were already on the website. Olivia is pretty adamant about, you know, viewing things and wants to know what's out there. She doesn't just want to come upon something and be surprised. So somewhere along the line it was very apparent that there were three pictures that showed the victims that did not get redacted. And the Ekimba, it came down because there were three. But whoever had downloaded those in that time frame before, I don't know how long it was up have those pictures of actual victims. So it's very sad this whole thing.

[Steve Gonsalves]

Has turned into a, a profit making like enterprise. The day before they told us that because somebody complained that did FOIA requests that, that the families were getting the photos at the same time. We no longer get the photos. We never get. We don't get any of the discovery from these images or anything that's been a FOIA request. They get it first and then we can get it after them.

[Nancy Grace]

Did you see a photo with the students? I'm trying to choose my words carefully, but I don't have another way to say it. Did you see photos, crime scene photos, Horrific bloody crime scene photos with the victims bodies in the photos. Did you see that?

[Christy Gonsalves]

Unfortunately, yes.

[Nancy Grace]

I don't understand why they can't ever do the right thing. Steve, they did not take this case to trial. They did not find out the truth. This was a death penalty case. If we're going to have the death penalty, this is it. They took a weak plea. We never learned the whole truth. They wouldn't do the right thing and now this. They are buckling under to a FOIA request, but they don't even have the courtesy to give it to you first. When do they pick and choose? When to follow the law?

[Steve Gonsalves]

Well, yeah, just to the other family that Ever goes through a case like this, just know they're gonna lie to you. They're gonna tell you in your weakest moment that if you just want to make it go away, just go along with the plea, just go along, and all this stuff will go away. And I. I had legal counsel, and they were like, that's not gonna go away, Steve. They're just lying to these families, trying to divide them so that they can get at least somebody to. To agree with what they're doing, and then that's all they need. Even though there's four victims and you can get a death penalty for one. They wanted to break us apart to help their narrative. And we're still dealing with it, you know, we're still dealing with it right now.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, I've got to tell you something, Mr. And Mrs. Goncalves. After my fiance was murdered, of course, I was a witness at the trial. And I remember coming down off the witness stand. I had never been in a courtroom. I didn't know anything about the justice system at all. When I came off the witness stand, it was way high up by the judge's head. I came down, then there was a landing, then there were more steps to come down. And I walked out and I looked over and I saw Keith's bloody shirt. And I was just a young girl, but I will never forget that moment. I had not seen it. I didn't know about it. I knew what he was wearing that morning when he left. It was a denim shirt to go to his job at a construction site. But I had not seen and did not see any of the evidence until I saw that his bloody clothes lying on the council table. And that one moment has crystallized in my mind after all these years. So I don't know how you can even close your eyes and go to sleep at night after you've seen the crime scene photos that were leaked and then scrubbed on the police site. What did that do to you, Christy?

[Dave Mack]

So.

[Christy Gonsalves]

So, you know, I chose to look very quickly, unfortunately. Sometimes it just gets me. Other times I'm. No, but I was like, I gotta, you know, and it wasn't. I did not look a lot. I did not look, you know, for. For long. I pretty much was out of there, like, quickly. But it's hard to unsee. And I knew that. I knew that. I knew what would happen.

[Nancy Grace]

What about it, Steve?

[Steve Gonsalves]

I haven't seen very many on. The ones that I've seen are just ones that my family wanted me to comment on. If it was as bad as Basically showing me seeing the victims in body bags, things that are. They're not entertainment. I mean, they're for investigations. And if you're not going to have a trial, you really don't have the same investigation at that point. It's not a need to know. It's not the community, and you're not having a jury. So it's kind of frustrating that we're still doing.

[Christy Gonsalves]

And, you know, we get a lot of heat over this because people say, you guys are no different. It is very common for crime scene photos to come out. I get that. I understand that. I feel bad for those families that their loved ones are out there and this has happened, but I just feel like times are changing. And what people do with those photos nowadays is what the real problem is. You know, blow them up on social media and analyze them and talk to them, talk about them. You know, it's not true crime anymore. It's troll crime, you know, and that's where things are changing, and it has been for quite a while.

[Steve Gonsalves]

They're making a profit off your dead loved ones. And that. That was.

[Christy Gonsalves]

You're relishing in it.

[Steve Gonsalves]

Yeah. And that was to a lesser extent before. But, like, your organization isn't showing them. You're not going to get that same kind of professionalism in some of these.

[Christy Gonsalves]

Smaller true crime people. Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. I remember years ago on. It was my very first book, it was called Objection, and I wrote a chapter on. Called Blood Money. And I was so stunned that people got a hold of Nicole Brown's autopsy photos and were selling them. After I wrote that chapter, Blood Money, I had this cheap little. It was like a $200 laptop. It's like this big that I wrote the book on. When I finished that chapter, I had to look up so many ghoulish examples of what we're talking about right now. I swear, I thought the computer had to be hanked and I destroyed it because I had to write about people buying crime scene photos and scraps from a crime scene that were bloody and autopsy photos is just ghoulish. After you saw that, after you saw that, to both of you, how did that affect you? Because I still think back on that moment. I just saw a bloody shirt.

[Christy Gonsalves]

You know, I'm not sure if I've really been able to wrap my mind around it, honestly. I showed. I don't believe you've actually looked at them on your own. I showed Steve one, and it was one of the less graphic ones, and he was like, yeah, so unfortunately, I went there and I deeply regret it. I knew I would.

[Nancy Grace]

I've got to tell you something I learned, you know, the hard way. I'm very curious by nature, but when it comes to my fiance's murder, I've learned to control that. My curiosity. Because I don't want any more nightmares or any more night terrors or sleepwalking or crying jags than I've already had. So I just. Please know you are in our thoughts and our prayers throughout this whole ordeal. And to put it up and then scrub it shows a certain degree of knowledge that you did the wrong thing. I want to talk to you now about another Kohberger related incident. Listen now. CO Burger's sister, her name, she goes by Mel, spoke to the New York Times. This piece was published on Wednesday, January 7th. The headline, Her Brother Murdered Four Students. Now she's ready to talk. Well, I'm so happy that she now feels ready to tell her story. The readout in the version says that Mel is going to talk about the Coburger families, their pain, their confusion. You know, this thing happened the blink of an eye ago and when. So this, this piece is such a piece of journalistic malpractice. The interviewer, the guy's name is Mike Baker. He. He either does not know nor does he care to read in to the details of this case, but instead we've got crap like this in the New York Times. Feel sor for me. My brother is a homicidal maniac who snuffed out four young lives and seemed to enjoy doing it. And it looks like my mom was an accessory after the fact. Just my opinion. But hey, we just want. We just want to reenter polite society. Please, won't you help us in? The New York Times says, sure, why not? That is our friend Maureen Callahan from her podcast the Nerve. And boy, she hit the nail on the head, really. Mel is whining to the New York Times and they're printing their puff piece about her pain. Her pain and her family's pain. Okay, that's the time to keep your pie holes shut right there. I would like your response to CO Burger's family whining about their pain.

[Christy Gonsalves]

Um, you know, I think it's. It's just odd that they would. That's their first time they've chosen to speak out. You know, apparently they stand behind him whether they believe the truth or not. But they've, They've never spoken out for his innocence. They've never gone out there and said, you know, my brother's innocent. He didn't do this. He would never do such a thing. But they come out and, you know, say, you know, we're in this terrible situation. Our family is hurting and whatnot. And I don't doubt that their family is having some sort of confusion, pain. I, I don't. I'm sure that they are, but it does not compare at all. They could still talk to him. They could write to him. They could go visit him. He's still breathing.

[Steve Gonsalves]

My kids would be. If one of my kids did something like this, they would be dead to our family. We would not be supporting them. That we would not be. I tell all my kids, if you do something that atrocious, even, even like rape, it's something like that where you, you overly go over somebody else's will, you're done. This family, we're not. We're not. We would never, we would never put up with that. And this we're talking about. An individual's got like $30,000, so you gotta, gotta stand up and say the person's wrong and then remove your support. Otherwise you're condoning what he did and you're embracing it and you're reward behavior. And that's why society has people like this. And we will continue to have people like this because we haven't just cut the rope and said, you're done, you're dead. You're dead even though you're alive, you're dead to us.

[Christy Gonsalves]

It's hard to put ourselves in their shoes because a lot of people think that they could put themselves in our shoes and speak on behalf of how they would act or they wouldn't have done what we did, or they would have done this and that and this and that. And until you're in these shoes, it's hard to really say what you're going to do. We think we know what we would do if the tables were reversed. So it is hard to actually know for sure that's just our opinion of what, how we feel as a family.

[Nancy Grace]

Guys, Gonzalvesis, you sitting down? You may need to lay down quotes from Melissa Coburger from the New York Times. Brace yourself. I've always been a person who has spoken up for what was right. Okay, Just right there. Screeching, screeching. Stop. If I ever had a reason to believe my brother did anything, I would have turned him in. Okay? It's confusing. It's painful. It's like being victimized by not really being a victim. Okay, you're not a victim. You're not A victim, Melissa Kohberger. The idea is making me so emotional, I can barely speak to you about it. It's human nature to be curious about darker things. That's how we keep ourselves safe. I think we should try to come together for a true crime culture. What? Come together for a true crime culture. Now, wait, wait. We're all so proud of him because he had overcome so much. It was a heart surrounded by vibrant colors that I had drawn for Brian. Even if I could not be there in person. Okay. I stand up for what is right. She actually said that? Christy? She said that?

[Christy Gonsalves]

Yeah. Yeah. I find it very hard to believe that she doesn't know the truth unless in that situation that they are in, they just have a mental block that will not allow them to accept what he did.

[Steve Gonsalves]

She said in her own words, Brian, you're out at like 1, 2 and 3 in the morning.

[Christy Gonsalves]

Be careful running.

[Steve Gonsalves]

So if you know your brother's out, he has the same car. You've got a shared family Amazon account. You're seeing he has the weapon. So now he has the weapon, the car, and he's out around that time.

[Christy Gonsalves]

And he lives close.

[Steve Gonsalves]

Yeah, he's less than 10 miles away. Don't tell me you didn't know or you didn't think that he was a suspect or why didn't you tell him to go turn his car?

[Nancy Grace]

According to her, the family knew nothing.

[Dave Mack]

Listen, Coburger's sister Mel, saying her family had no idea her brother was a killer and reached out to warn him to be careful after the murders. Finally speaking out. She wants to talk about growing up with the killer.

[Nancy Grace]

No one wants to hear about growing up with Bryan Coburger, but this does not bode well for her mental health care career if she lived with a psycho killer her whole life and didn't notice anything was wrong. Okay, Joining me right now, Dr. Bethany Marshall. She's renowned psychologist out of the LA jurisdiction, author of Deal Breakers. You can see her on Peacock and you can find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com. Dr. Bethany Marshall, I ask that you tread very lightly while the Gonsalves family is with us. But what is with this person? It's my understanding and you investigative reporters Susan and Dave, jump in if I'm wrong, but she has a career in mental health care and she lived with a psycho killer her whole life and didn't notice a thing. That does not bode well.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

No. There are so many reports about Bryan Kohberger that expose the fact that he stalked, that the staff at the university had meetings about him. There were complaints about him. I'm sure he exhibited that same behavior at home. There's a term, the mask of sanity when it comes to psychopaths, meaning that they wear the mask of sanity. They pretend that they are more sane than they really are. But Bryan Coburger did not pretend he was sane. It was. It was apparent to everybody around him. Why not Mel? And the thing about Melissa, you know, in order to be a therapist, you have to have profound empathy for others. In her interview, she. She expresses no empathy for the families of the victims.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, even given the interview about her pain and her family's pain. Okay, one thing. Before the Gonzalez leave us, I want to speak to them about what this woman just said. C.O. burger's sister. The family had no idea. But let me lay something out for you and then I will explore it more in depth with the rest of our panel. The phone records tell a very different story, Mr. And Mrs. Gonsalves, and I'm sure you already know this, but for those that don't, for the phone records, the murders of four beautiful students, including Keely Gonsalves, occur between 4:05 and 4:20am Kohberger turns his phone off between 2:30 and 4:30am he turns the phone back on on his way from the crime scene back to his apartment in Pullman. 4:45 to 5am he immediately starts calling his mother around 6am now he's just turned his phone back on, starts calling his mother over and over and over and over, obsessively. She doesn't pick up. Maybe she's sleeping. Then in a fit of anger, he calls his father and says, why won't she pick up the phone? Well, she picks up the phone quickly after that, 6, 17 calls mom on a phone call that lasts 36 minutes. 8:03, he is now driving back to the crime scene to view his handiwork. This is very common amongst criminals. They return to the crime scene, don't know why. Why does a dog make a circle three times before it sits down? Don't know. But. But they do. He calls, Mommy speaks. Nearly an hour driving around the crime scene. Did mom tell him to go back and get that knife sheath? Did she advise him to confess or not to speak? This is just 120 minutes after the murders and he's on the phone with mommy. 9:00am he's back on the phone. What were they talking about? 5 phone calls over three hours at the time, immediately after the murders to Steve and Christy Gonzalez. You want me to Believe she knew nothing. And as a sister is saying to the New York Times, we had no idea, really, what were they talking about? Have you caught. Have you thought about this?

[Christy Gonsalves]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Gonsalves]

We know more than just that. We know from some of the stuff they pulled from his phone. She sent him links to the story.

[Christy Gonsalves]

So not that same day, but shortly after.

[Steve Gonsalves]

Yeah, shortly after. So, yeah, yeah, and we know about. They gave the BOLO out on the car, and then just within a day or two, they start booking a flight to go get him. And then he wasn't coming back with that car. That whole trip to Pennsylvania was to get rid of evidence, his car, and help him clean it. As soon as he pulled up to the house, dad jumped out of the car, moved his car out, and put his in the garage. So, yeah, there's more to that, too, but there's only so much we can focus on and so much we can work on, but we're not fools.

[Christy Gonsalves]

Yeah. And I mean, and we do know that he was wearing gloves inside the house almost the whole time. Matter of fact, when they went in to arrest him, he was indeed sitting at the kitchen table wearing gloves, sorting trash. Now, whether he was doing that, why the family was all sleeping, I find it hard to believe that they didn't notice that he was going around wearing gloves. Maybe he was shorting trash only. Right. They were asleep and they didn't notice that. But why are you just walking around the house wearing gloves? Why are you out there obsessively and.

[Nancy Grace]

Right there, Christie, you know, this morning, as my daughter was walking out, I went, hold on. You got a white fuzzy attached to your leg. And I went over and got it off, and she walked out the door. I noticed that they didn't notice he was wearing gloves in the house.

[Christy Gonsalves]

They didn't want to notice. It is what it is.

[Steve Gonsalves]

Sorting his garbage.

[Nancy Grace]

Those phone calls to me are damning. They're damning. And I wonder if the mother was ever questioned about what the content of those phone calls. Over and over and over, going to the crime scene, going around and around and around like a vulture at the crime scene. What were they talking about? Was she questioned? To the Gonsalves family, I beg you not to look at the photos any further. I beg you. Because it's going to be up here the rest of your life. What is your message tonight, Mr. And Mrs. Goncalves?

[Christy Gonsalves]

You know, it really is just, you know, with society changing the way it is and people, so many people having access to it via the Internet and being able to get these pictures, they fall in the wrong hands and it's.

[Steve Gonsalves]

Just everybody's a news network but never. They don't have the education to be a journalist.

[Christy Gonsalves]

I mean an 18 year old TikToker, you know, getting them out there and just.

[Steve Gonsalves]

I wouldn't have done the right thing at 18 either. So yeah, it's just our leaders have to be better than this and, and.

[Christy Gonsalves]

We are no different than people in the past. I'm not trying to say that we're better and, and, but things need to change. It's a time to change this.

[Nancy Grace]

You know what? For the first time ever, Mr. And Mrs. Gonzalez, I completely disagree with you. I think right is right and wrong is wrong and there's no excuse for that. There is no excuse for hurting the victim's families for your own monetary gain. For a moment, for another click for a higher rating, for just. It's wrong. As I tell I've told my children if it feels wrong, it is wrong. There's something wrong when you feel like is this right? It's not right when you feel those tingles or you feel hot when you're saying something or doing something, stop. Because it's wrong and your conscience is telling you that's wrong. So I can explain it away with the times they be a changing that doesn't cut it with me. But please know tonight you are in our prayers as always and thank you for joining us.

[Christy Gonsalves]

Thank you for having us.

[Nancy Grace]

Convicted quadruple killer Bryan Kohberger pled guilty to slaughtering four people that he thought he would find asleep in their beds. Four beautiful University of Idaho students.

[Jo Scott Morgan]

These final moments that they have just screaming for life, screaming for air.

[Nancy Grace]

I can't stress enough the brutality of the crime scene photos and to re victimize these victims and their families.

[Dave Mack]

Family of Coburger's victims shocked by graphic crime scene photos released to the public with little warning. They were made aware of the release just hours before. The photos show the bedrooms where the murders took place clearly showing blood spatter on the walls, blood dripping on the beds and blood smears on the floor where a battle of life and death took place. Photos show the knife sheath Coburger left behind in Maddie's bed. The piece of evidence that put Coburger in the room when the murders took place. Photos show the floor and walls with blood smeared sheets drenched with blood. The spatter smears and dripping showing the brutality of the horrific murders and the battle that took place.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining me and all star panel to make sense of what we are Learning tonight. First, the photos. The only photo that I saw of any probative value. Wait for it. I'm not going to it yet. Is the knife she found under a victim's body. To Dave Mack, joining me, Crime Stories investigative reporter. We went through the photos one by one last night and it was heartbreaking. Describe what you saw.

[Dave Mack]

Nancy, I am so thankful of the decision you've made to not show the photos. What I saw was worse than anything I imagined throughout all of our coverage of this and all I could when I saw the blood in the bedrooms. And I mean, we're talking on the floor, on the bed, on the walls. We're not talking about a car accident. We are talking about girls being horrifically murdered by Coburger. And what we're looking at there, there was one of the photos, Nancy, this shows one of the girls hair in the blood. And all I could think of was my own daughters. And all I could think of was the families being subjected to this for what free and interest. The blood is worse than we were told.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, it's much worse than what we thought we were going to see. Justice Scott Morgan joining me, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University with an incredible criminal procedure program. Author, Blood Beneath My Feet, star of Body Bags with Jo Scott Morgan, a hit podcast. Jo Scott, how many times was Kelly stabbed in the face of Goncalves daughter to the point her teeth are stabbed out of her mouth?

[Jo Scott Morgan]

Yeah, it's in excess of 20. And here's the problem, you can't actually count them accurately because there's cross communication between the injuries, Nancy, the kind of overlap, that's how much damage was done. And the level of brutality, you know, is something that you know is going to ring in our ears forever and ever because we've all heard this before. But now because of a decision that has been made relative to this imagery refocuses it in a very ghoulish way against the wishes of the family. And Nancy, I got to tell you something. You know, here at Jack State, I work with current and former practitioners. That means that we're all investigators, current forensic scientists. And you know, Nancy, to a person, when I poll them, I asked them have do you guys, to the best of your recollection, recall a homicide that you have worked that has been adjudicated and the subject is in an institution somewhere? And then after this, all of the crime scene images are released by your organization or the DA or whoever it is to a person they couldn't recall a single instance? Nancy I worked in New Orleans and Atlanta. And from an official standpoint, I don't ever recall now, that doesn't mean that there haven't been leaked things over the years, but this goes so far beyond the pale that this can be linked back to these people out there that seem to have a complete disconnect with reality.

[Nancy Grace]

I don't understand what is wrong with these people. Dr. Bethany Marshall, why, why the release and then quickly scrub it off the screen, knowing they did a bad thing, not telling the parents in advance? They have to find out. And then the people that are enjoying looking at them, the Gonsalves pointed out. I'm going to double check with Susan Hendricks. The Gonzalez is pointing out this is no longer an investigation. It's over. So why now? What is there to prove or disprove? Probatively, it's over. And when Dave and I were looking at the crime scene photos last night, Bethany, a lot of them are just the blood smeared on the wall, on the floor where you can see there was a struggle, a horrific struggle in blood. And the parents are going to have to go, that's Kelly's blood, that's Maddie's blood, that's Ethan's blood. Just what's wrong with these people?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

You know what's wrong, Nancy, is there is profound disregard for the families. In Mel's interviews in the police, police department, whoever released those photos, these are law enforcement, the people who release the photos, they should know that there are people out there with ghoulish interests in gore, in crime, and that these photos will be used in an exploitive kind of way. You know, Nancy, in the dsm, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, it describes that it's more traumatic to see a loved one hurt than to be hurt yourself. All right? To see a loved one stabbed in a car accident, in pain, a loved one with cancer, because we human beings, we are wired to connect. So how could the law enforcement not have known that one little slip putting these photos out there and that they would spread like wildfire all over the Internet? And you know, these people who are in charge of these ghoulish pictures who are using them, exploiting them, they have profound disregard for the family, too. It's just. It's so sad.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining me is Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist, author of down the My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Susan, how did this happen? It wasn't just a standard SOP release of crime scene photos because it was placed up on the Idaho State Police website and then quickly scrubbed off.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

What happened, Nancy, that's the question. How did they get out? Were they leaked, were they released and quote unquote redacted, if you will? I mean, as we just heard, you could see one of the victim's hair. It's unbelievable that the families have to be re victimized again.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, you know to Chris McDonough joining us. Director, Cold Case foundation. Former homicide detective, worked over 300 homicides over 25 years and he's a star of a YouTube channel. Where I found him the interview room. Chris, thank you for being with us. You and I have walked the crime scene and been intimately involved with the logistics of the murders. Chris, there's not a lot probative that prove anything about many of these photos. They're ghoulish. The one photo that I saw that proved anything to me was the knife sheath. Let's see that. We've seen it, we've heard about it. This shot there, there you see the knife on the bed. The sheets are splattered with blood. And Jo Scott Morgan can explain what those blood droplets mean. This will be the only photos that we show of these pictures from hell. Chris, this knife sheath changed the trajectory, changed the course of this investigation. Is it typical for crime victims families to have to look at the crime scene photos? I always try to shield them, Chris.

[Dave Mack]

No, absolutely not, Nancy. It is not typical. And the family has every right to feel outraged and shocked. I mean, this is beyond the pale. What that knife sheet though does tell us is that Haley stalled this crime by her fighting by her. And we see that in the blood evidence with Doc Morgan. We'll talk about here in a minute. But what we see there is the fact that he lost control because she gained control. And that's the brutality that he had to deliver as a result of that. And that's why that night sheath is there.

[Nancy Grace]

Joe Scott Morgan, what do we see? What do those blood droplets on the bed, I think that's Matty Mogan's bed where the knife was found, the knife sheath. What do those droplets tell you?

[Jo Scott Morgan]

Well, they're immediately adjacent to the sheath, which by the way is face down. The USMC is not visible on the sheath, which we've heard a lot about. This is a K bar sheath. The size of these droplets, Nancy, indicate to me that there is some level of velocity or speed in their deposition. So this is something that you're going to see either in an action move. It's not like passively dripping where you get the big drops. This is coming off of the action of actually stabbing or Casting at that point in time. So they don't, they don't all have little tails on them. But you can see that there is some level of velocity because the size of these things, they're concentrated, they're very tiny.

[Dave Mack]

Tell me exactly what's going on. One of our. One of the roommates has passed out.

[Nancy Grace]

And she was drunk last night and she.

[Dave Mack]

Don't wake me up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some man in their house last night. Yikes. Hi, and are you with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened? Pretty much what is going on currently. Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much at 4:00am Okay, I need to know what's going on right now. If someone has passed out, can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on, we gotta go check, but we have to.

[Nancy Grace]

Brian Kohberger pled guilty to four murders. They were worse than murders. They were slaughters. The nature of the murders was more akin to a butchering a. Does it never end for the victims families? But now they have another fight on their hands trying to stop vile images of their children in death being released. And tonight the parents sue Washington State University. Listen, that's really interesting. If he had been thrown out, he wouldn't have even been there.

[Christy Gonsalves]

Exactly.

[Jo Scott Morgan]

Yep.

[Steve Gonsalves]

He should have been thrown out before he ever killed these kids. That's the truth. They should have set a standard and said, look, we don't put up with this in our university. You cross the line, you're done. It's not even our decision. It's just your behavior. We're holding you accountable. You should behave like this. That's the expectations in Washington State University. And you either do it or you don't.

[Nancy Grace]

There were so many red flags.

[Christy Gonsalves]

Listen, he had 13 in the first semester. The first one came in August. That's the first month that you come to school. And then 12 out, 12 after. And November had a huge, you know, Thanksgiving break. And then he didn't even go the whole month of December. He took off like December 9th or 10th. And there's 13 formal complaints.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Bethany Marshall, what was wrong with ws you? Washington State University. At least 13 complaints by women, by students. It got so bad, even a professor was complaining. I think they thought they were going to get sued if they fired Coburger. Well, they're getting sued now because they did nothing.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

They had their eye on the wrong thing, Nancy. Even one professor came forward and said, do not Give this guy a PhD because if you do, you will see him in the news. Years from now, he will have raped, murdered, killed somebody. So there were multiple people coming forward, forward. And I do think the university was paralyzed at the thought that Bryan Kohberger would sue them. In fact, they saw themselves as a potential victim rather than thinking about all the victims in the classroom. Nancy University students, especially women between the ages of 18 and 22, are notoriously targeted for rapes and crimes. We know this about college campuses. So the fact that they did not even use their own internal risk assessment procedure to protect these victims, it's just shocking.

[Dave Mack]

The lawsuit alleges almost immediately upon arrival to Pullman, Moscow, Coburger developed a reputation for harassing and stalking, instilling fear among female students and fellow WSU employees. Records show at least 13 complaints were filed against Coburger by other students in the criminology program.

[Nancy Grace]

Classmates and professors found Coburger sexist and creepy. Female students avoided being left alone with.

[Jo Scott Morgan]

Him, and one fact warned he had.

[Nancy Grace]

The potential to become a future rapist.

[Dave Mack]

A faculty member said Kohberger is, quote, smart enough that in four years we will have to give him a PhD.

[Nancy Grace]

But mark my word, I work with predators.

[Dave Mack]

If we give him a PhD, that's the guy.

[Nancy Grace]

In many years when he is a professor, we will hear he's harassing, stalking and sexually abusing his students at wherever university. My stars. And to Howard Blum, renowned author. He wrote when the Night Comes Falling requisite for the Idaho student's murder. He has an article out this weekend in Air Mail titled, did BK have an accomplice? I make the case. Howard Blum. It goes on and on. It was so bad that there was a system set up for female students to text or email when they needed an escort to their car because they were afraid of Coburger. I mean, you have been on this case from the beginning. Why didn't they act? I agree with the Gonsalves family.

[Dave Mack]

I agree with them, too. And I think it's really interesting that for once all four families are uniting to make a point. And I think their point is not specifically against wsu, Washington State University, but they want to establish once and for all that students, when your parents send students off to a university or a college, that they are protected. The university has a responsibility to make sure that their students are safe. And Washington State University ignored this. And it can't be done at Washington State University. It can't be done at other universities around the country. And that's the Real purpose of this lawsuit, and it's a good one.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with nancy grace. Eric Faddis joining me, high profile lawyer, founder of the law offices of Eric Faddis, former felony prosecutor. Eric, what can Washington State University say in their defense? Because it's all documented. These are not just he said this and she said that. They documented it. And then a day late and a dollar short, they decide to have an intervention way, way too late.

[Dave Mack]

Yeah, I mean, it seems like there were some clearly documented failures, errors and omissions on behalf of Washington State University. I think what they're going to argue, Nancy, is they're going to argue causation because the plaintiffs have to essentially show that Washington State's university's failures caused damages and in some of the claims caused or substantially contributed to the deaths. I think Washington State's going to say, hey, this was a madman. This was a psychopathic killer. We couldn't have done anything to stop, stop this. He would have done this anyway. And so I think that that is the horse they're likely going to ride. The suit alleges the college did not take action in part because they feared firing Coburger might open WSU up to a lawsuit after the murders. Coburger's supervising instructor and fellow graduate students immediately thought Coburger committed the murders, but did not contact law enforcement. The plaintiffs named in the suit Kalaganzava's dad, Maddie Mogan's mom, Zanna Kernodle's dad, and Ethan Chapin's mom argue WSU was obligated to control Coburger as a teaching assistant and employee and resident of campus housing.

[Nancy Grace]

They hired him. Dr. Bethany Marshall. Doesn't anybody check social media anymore? He talked about his heroin addiction. He talked about the white noise he hears all the time. Remember that? Like when you see snow on your tv. Did they not see any of that?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

And that he felt like a piece of meat. He had no emotions when he hugged his family members, he didn't feel anything. Nancy, this, this is actually a profound refusal to put their thoughts together about what was happening at their university. They did not. They looked at all the evidence, they talked about it, they had meetings. Everything was documented. But there was a Prof. Lack of a willingness to think, to think about the students, to protect the students. Their fear of being sued was so self serving. I mean, they prioritize that over women who are potentially raped. They're worried about themselves. Like Melissa Kohberger, she's worried about her family. She's not talking about the victims families, like all These photos that are being released online, these ghoulish people who are going to exploit the photos are thinking about themselves. They're not thinking about the family. There is a profound disconnect, Nancy. People are dissociating from the reality of what really happened during that crime.

[Nancy Grace]

And I'm sure you heard earlier that immediately after the murders, people at wsu, fellow grad students and a supervising instructor knew. They immediately knew Coburger, quote, did it. And they did nothing.

[Dave Mack]

She's not waking up. Okay, one moment. I'm getting help. Started that way.

[Nancy Grace]

Circling back to Howard Bloom, author of the definitive book regarding the Idaho when the Night Comes Falling. Howard, what about that sister and her green wig? Not judging. She's claiming that she's gotten so famous to avoid being recognized, she has to wear heavy makeup in a wig, a green wig or pink wig, wherever she goes. Okay, but the point is whining to the New York Times about her pain and her family's pain.

[Dave Mack]

Well, I am sympathetic to the sister. I think she's a victim. But I also think she's not being totally candid. We just heard that the at Washington State University, everyone thought he was a suspect, or so many people thought he was a suspect, and yet his family had no idea. I don't buy that. I don't buy that at all. I don't believe that the father, while he was sitting in a white Hyundai Elantra, while they were going across the country, that the police were looking, he knew, were looking for a white Hyundai Elantra, didn't have any idea that this was his son was involved in these murders. I think they're trying to make the best case possible, but I don't think they're being totally candid.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, that's certainly putting perfume on the pig, isn't it? Howard Bloom, not being totally candid. Okay. When I saw that article, nothing about the pain the victims are going through, nothing at all. All about me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. That's bizarre. I smell a book in the works. I'm just saying somebody in the Coburger camp is going to write a book about all their pain. Susan Hendricks, back to the lawsuit. The gon solves are not speaking about it. Susan, is it true that women had an email or a text that they could use because they were afraid of Co Burger to even walk to their cars?

[Christy Gonsalves]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

And the email would say 91 1. I mean, they had a plan. They were petrified of this guy to even where they had to make a code to Say I'm in trouble here or leave the door open. I mean it's just the red flags.

[Nancy Grace]

Are everywhere in this lawsuit, everywhere. And they were all ignored. Chris McDonough joining us, cold Case foundation and star of the interview room. Chris. And so many cases that I prosecuted by the time I got them. Of course they were felonies that started with pervy behavior like peeping Toms, voyeurism, upskirt photos and then suddenly somebody's raped and somebody's dead. Okay, Are you surprised at all that it all started with his trail of intimidating women at WSU who did nothing about it?

[Dave Mack]

No, not at all, Nancy. And you have been connecting these dots from day one. And let's take it one step further. After the murders, right? We have all of this pre incident behavior that are just huge red flags. But what about when the cops find the white Elantra and they do what? Oh, they just said, oh, we made a mistake. A mistake? Are you kidding me? Do you imagine all that evidence that was lost just within a week after the homicides? This was in confidence at its finest hour.

[Nancy Grace]

To Eric Faddis joining us, high profile lawyer, founder of law offices of Eric Faddis. Eric, I have some advice. Now I'm not a civil lawyer like you have become, but if I was counseling wsu, I'd say don't say anything, issue an apology, a written apology so nobody can throw questions at you that you don't have the backbone or the wherewithal to answer. Don't say anything. You'll make it worse. And just settle. Settle with the families and go away. Lesson learned, do not fight the families on this lawsuit. There is a trail a mile wide just edged with red flags about Brian Kohberger and they did nothing.

[Dave Mack]

Nancy, I think that's sound advice in part because as the lawsuit proceeds, there's going to be a discovery process whereby Washington State University officials are going to be deposed. They're going to be asked questions under oath, peppered with inquiries from the plaintiff side. They're going to have to answer questions under oath in writing. They're going to have to provide materials and we're going to learn a lot more about these alleged failures on behalf of the university. And I think Steve Gonsalves earlier in the program said, you know, he said our leaders need to be better. And that seems like the theme of this lawsuit.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, the thing is this, not only are they going to have to answer questions, they're going to have to depose the victims families. You know what, you can ride that deposition straight to hell, putting the families through that, too. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.