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This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. It starts like any other night. The glass of red, the cozy blanket, then the drop. The stain so dark, so stubborn it might as well have been a crime scene. But this isn't your average couch. This is Anna Bay. Fully washable, unspeakably comfortable, and ready for whatever your life, your kids or your ex throws at it. And here's the kicker. Starting at just 699, you can make sure your sofa isn't part of the problem. Fully washable, stain resistant, and built to hide even the darkest offenses. Right now, get up to 60% off in black Friday savings because no one should have to live with a stain that won't quit. Annabe the only mystery you won't be losing sleep over shop washablesofas.com today that's washablesofas.com the only thing between you and your best self is the start button. This Black Friday Explore the world with NordicTrack from the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with IFIT trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com for Black Friday savings. NordicTrack train anywhere. Explore everywhere. Bring incredible sound into every corner of your home this holiday with the new Whimsound smart speaker. Get high resolution Audio with a 1.8-inch touchscreen, smart control and modern design in one powerful speaker for just $2.99. From Quiet Mornings to lively holiday gatherings, Whim Sound makes every moment sound better and feel better too. Get the gift of the season for the music enthusiast in your life or for yourself. Whimsound Beautifully designed, effortlessly connected. Shop now at Amazon and search Whimsound. That's W I I M S O U n D A doubly board certified obgyn, an endocrinologist doctor, a naturopathic and licensed acupuncture doctor, and a certified health coach. Walk into a room. What do they talk about? GLP1, of course, but more specifically, the difference between the synthetic version of your body's own hormone that are prescribed by doctors nationwide versus metabolism ignite product, which naturally increases your body's GLP1 55%. GLP1 slows digestion leading to bloating and discomfort versus metabolism ignite, which supports your digestion and gut health. GLP1 side effects can lead to nausea, fatigue and muscle loss, whereas Metabolism Ignite is powered by plants and there are no side effects. Some long term results of GLP1 links to weight gain after stopping the synthetic drug which has been proven in multiple studies. In comparison to metabolism ignite, there is no weight regain and this product supports metabolic health. The prognosis these three medical practitioners all agree upon. Visit veracityselfcare.com and receive 15% off your first purchase with promo code iHeart Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Horrific. A beautiful little girl, Jaylen, just 8 years old, trampolined, dead in scorching Texas heat 110 degrees Fahrenheit. By who? An evil monster? I guess you could say so. Her sick parents. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. It's a hot summer morning in Odessa, Texas and 8 year old Jalen Schwartz is outside jumping on the trampoline. But what appears as an otherwise fun and innocent game for an eight year old girl turns out to be deadly abuse. Jumping on the trampoline. There was never a happier day than when our twins got a trampoline. Of course, we dragged it straight to the front yard and it's been the centerpiece ever since. But for this eight year old little girl, the trampolining wasn't for fun. It was for punishment. Joining me in All Star panel, straight out to Erica Miller joining us from Odessa, Texas, Content Manager, Digital EP KMID Big two News. Erica, thank you for being with us. Thank you. What does that mean? It wasn't jumping the trampoline for fun, it was for punishment. Yeah. The forms of punishment in this house seem to be rather sadistic. For me, it's knowing that what a Texas heat is like. West Texas is dry. It is. There's no cool breeze, no shade. And so knowing that she was out there being punished. When your child is out in that kind of heat playing, you check on them routinely, constantly because you know the danger is very real. So to have these little girls out there as a form of punishment was horrible. They couldn't get into the house and they couldn't turn the spigot to turn on the faucet outside. There was no water. There was no respite from that heat for them. Erica Miller joining us from kmid. And now to a special guest, it's Tom Green, former chief deputy, Washoe County Sheriff's Office in the Homicide Division and the Cold case Squad, currently PI Private eye at Nevada Investigative Services. Tom Green, again, as always, thank you for being with us. I find that very probative. In other words, it proves something that this little girl just 8 years old is punished by forcing her to jump on a trampoline non stop. And correct me if I'm wrong, Erica Miller, she can't have a water break. If she gets tired and thirsty and has to stop, the punishment must continue without water. And if she gets water, then time is added on. And what I'm saying is probative, Tom Green, is that as you heard Erica Miller say, the spigots were cut off. She couldn't just walk up like in many houses, there's a water spigot on the side of the house somewhere, maybe a hose attached to it. No, they had those cut off. A dysfunctional. Tom. Yeah. You know, such a tragic, tragic story. And you know, and it does show, it shows an intent, right? It shows an intent to potentially harm these children, to put them in grave danger. And it's torturous. You know, that's not all they did. I mean, it just sick and sadistic and torturous is what I see. Tom Green joining us out of Reno, former chief deputy in Washoe County. You're right. Other punishments, when taken in context, prove or I would submit prove that she wasn't jumping for fun. So many routine events or chores were turned in, they were weaponized, turned into punishment. And you know, Tom Green says something really interesting straight out to Kenneth Trey Gober, managing partner Lee Gober and Raina there in Texas. Kenneth Tre Gober, let me throw this at you. Very often I'm sure you, as a veteran trial lawyer would argue, well, where's the intent here? It's not just sending the child out to jump on the trampoline in 110 degree weather. It's scorching. Then you've got the heat on top of the trampoline, the black trampoline cover, like on a parking lot that gets hotter than everywhere else because of the black asphalt. But every minute adds to the premeditation. And you and I know as trial lawyers, premeditation can be formed in an instant, in the twinkling of a moment, the blink of an eye, the time it takes you to literally pull the trigger. The law does not require a long, drawn out plan. Like I'm going to kill Trey Gober by hiding behind his car and I'm going to wait three or four hours until he walks out at lunchtime, then I, I'm going to cap him or like a long drawn out poisoning over weeks and months to kill your target. Premeditation does not require any particular amount of time, does it? This was a difficult one for the Defense. But there's a difficulty to prove defense intent on this case, Nancy. You know, children go out, they jump on trampolines every single day. Parents have them do that. We talk about wanting to get kids away from screen time and more, going outside and having fun. And so, okay, yes, but mostly no. All parents want their children to go out in green spaces and get off, stop lying on their bed on top of their phone. But are you actually equating forcing a little girl, 8 years old in 110 degree weather? 110 degree weather. You're saying they did this to keep her away from screen time? Okay, you know what? Listen to this. So let's start a timer and let's see exactly how hot it gets in here. I'm at five minutes in. It is unbelievably hot in here. We're nearing 100 degrees already, and I can tell you that it is stifling in here. Okay, I'm at 15 minutes now, and it's about 110 in my car. The temperature right now is about 115. What I really wanted to set out to do is see how it felt to be left in a parked car. That's from our friend Dr. Ernie Ward's YouTube channel. And we enlisted that because we were looking at hot cars. He was actually speaking about leaving your dog in a hot car. But the principle is the same here. Because he's in a car and it's, you know, maybe 100 degrees outside. But because of being in a car, the temperature skyrocketed. Same thing here. Because she is on a black trampoline surface, it is drawing the sun and the heat in. Right. That's why in the desert they wear white and beige garments to reflect the sun, not draw it. In here, the heat is intensified as it would be in a car. Let's see that one more time. So let's start a timer and let's see exactly how hot it gets in here. I'm at five minutes in. It is unbelievably hot in here. We're nearing a hundred degrees already, and I can tell you that it is stifling in here. Okay, I'm at 15 minutes now, and it's about 110 in my car. The temperature right now is about 115. What I really wanted to set out to do is see how it flows felt to be left in a parked car. From Dr. Ernie Ward's YouTube channel. Okay, back to you, Trey. Trey Gober, veteran trial lawyer. So you actually said on national TV that they sent her out, possibly to get away from screen time to get her off her phone. Okay, did you just hear the doctors say it started 100 degrees, and within 15 minutes it was 110 and he found that quote stifling. He couldn't breathe. He was starting to feel dizzy out there. The little girl is in 110 to start with on that thick, black trampoline material. So how does the fact that they would not let her have water breaks factor into your wild, speculative theory that maybe they were trying to get her off her cell phone? We don't know. No water breaks. What does that have to do with outdoor time, Trey Gober, we don't know what they were doing. And the. The need to prove no water breaks is something that the defense or the prosecution has to defend the prove on the case. We do know that even though the trampoline material was black, that that surface was cooler than the ground. The ground measured at 150 that day. It was hot. But newsflash, it gets hot in 10. Put them up. Put them up. I'm so happy. Did you just say that the trampoline was better than the ground because the ground temp was what? The measurement I saw was that it was 150 that day in some of the ground temps. 15 0. Glad you made that admission tray, Gober, because now the choices are put the child on 110 degrees, scorching trampoline surface, or she could just stay outside where the ground is 150. 150. You said that you did that to yourself, Trey. That's not helping you. The point is, we don't know what the mens rea. What the intent was or if there was intent on the part of these guardians. Certainly a lot of parents would never do this with their children. We know that they did in this instance. And unfortunately, a life was lost in the in because of it. However. And you're doing it again. Trey Gober. Now I know how you win all your cases. You said a life was lost. Okay, if I took out an Uzi and shot you dead right now, do you think it would be appropriate for a commentator to say a life was lost? It sounds like there was a big accident. A life was lost. H E double L N O. This child had no water and was Erica Miller joining us out of Odessa? How long did the little girl, just 8 years old. How long was she forced to jump? From what I understand, she was out there all day long. She had was given pigs in a blanket for breakfast. And I believe during the course of the day was given two cups of water. But she was out there all day long. And I believe the last time the parents saw her was about 1:15 and they said she was rolling around on that 150 degree ground with the dogs. And then about 1:30, 15 minutes later they said that she had collapsed but she had been out there all day long. And when it was time for lunch, the mom offer offered peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and juice and the little girl couldn't eat. She said she wasn't hungry. My guess is she didn't feel very well and didn't feel like eating. But we know it was at least from breakfast time on to near about 2 o' clock in the afternoon. She laid there on that trampoline for at least an hour and a half to two hours before anybody ever even found her. How on Saturday, August 29, Jalen is on the trampoline for hours. The door to the house is locked, she doesn't have any water and she has been jumping for hours. Whenever she stops jumping, she loses a water break. After three hours of jumping on the trampoline with temperatures hovering around 110 degrees, Jalen passes out from WKYT TV. After a contentious custody transfer, 8 year old Jaylen Schwartz and her younger sister Jade are subjected to crime, cruel and unusual punishments by their adoptive parents whose questionable methods of discipline include forcing the girls to pick up dog feces with their bare hands or carry weights in a hallway till they're told to stop. On this day, little 8 year old Jalen is forced to jump on a trampoline non stop without water or food or breaks in the sweltering summer Texan heat. And that is the tip of the iceberg. Everyday chores weaponized as punishment Listen, the discipline that these two little girls went through with the guardians involved head shaving. It involved prolonged torture. Jumping on a trampoline is something Jalen Schwarz does for fun, but the activity has been used by Ashley and Daniel Schwarz as punishment. Jalen is forced to jump without stopping until she's told she can stop. Other innocent activities such as riding lines to improve her handwriting skills, carrying weights in a hallway or picking up dog feces have also been weaponized by Jaylon's guardians as a punishment. Jalen is forced to write lines over and over again until she's told to stop. She's forced to carry weights from one end of the hall to the other and back again, or to pick up dog feces with her bare hands. When the chore is not a punishment she gets to use gloves. This is certainly not the first time that exercise or fun or household chores are weaponized to become draconian harsh discipline for children. That equals child abuse. I will never forget the name of a little girl, Savannah Hardin. Grandma caught on tape telling the girl's school bus driver she'll, quote, run the girl until she, quote, can't run no more. That from our friends at hln. The little girl, Savannah, the grandma, finds out that she ate a candy bar, which she's not supposed to do. So she forces the little girl to carry a load of logs. This little girl carry a load of logs, run around and around and around the house until she literally drops dead. Listen. To punish her, according to investigators, Joyce Garrard began making her grandchild run around the house. And this continued, they say, for about three hours until she collapsed into a seizure. Nine year old Savannah Hardin comes home from school and grandmother Joyce Gerard finds out that Savannah ate a candy bar. She isn't supposed to eat chocolate. As punishment, Gerard makes Savannah run around the house for hours until Savannah collapses into a seizure. Stepmom Jessica Hardin calls 911 and Savannah is airlifted to Children's Hospital in Birmingham where Savannah dies. Savannah had run the equivalent of a marathon without a drink of water. They are currently being held on murder charges. This is felony murder on aggravated child abuse. You darn right it's felony murder. That's from our friends at hln. What is is that phenomena? To Lynn Shaw joining me, founder and executive director of Lynn's Warriors, a nonprofit committed to ending torture on young girls and women. Lynn, systematic discipline equals felony murder. Explain what this phenomenon is. What's happening is they're breaking down children's minds. We are seeing, we work with law enforcement. We are seeing increased cases of child abuse that has horrific circumstances around it. And my fear is that children are becoming habituated to it so they're not reporting it. Society's becoming habituated. It's becoming almost normalized. Where is the outrage from everybody? Our precious children? Why aren't we out screaming about this? We cannot have this. But all I know is this kind of abuse is psychological damage breaks down children's minds. And I'm so afraid all of this is getting buried underneath what's really going on here, which is just torturous, sadistic abuse and increasing across the United States with children. Karen Stark joining me, forensic psychologist, renowned TV radio trauma expert. You can find her@karen stark.com. that's Karen with a C. Karen, you and I just covered the case. Of a ruby Frankie. And what's so amazing, she was a mommy vlogger. And I believe the name of her show was eight Passengers. She had a slew of children. She's in jail now, thank God in heaven. And she and her cohort, another minion straight out of hell, Jody Hildebrandt, had this mommy vlogging where they would actually give advice about basically how to brutalize your children. And they became stars on the Internet, stars doling out this evil advice. And the abuse she heaped on her children finally came to light when one of the little boys, a son. Oh, Karen, remember the photos? Let's see the photo of him starved, the bones sticking out of his back. He managed to break loose and run to a nearby house. And then the guy that lived there calls 911 and the grown man breaks down in tears over the phone describing how the little boy has been bound at the wrists. He's starving. And Kieran Stark, millions of people were listening to her advice. And finally somebody says this is cray. That's child abuse. But it went on for months and months, years of her doling out her evil child advice. Unfortunately, Nancy, parents, and we all know this, mothers, parents are looking for advice all the time. They don't know in a lot of circumstances what's the best way to raise children. They have to guess. There's no textbook. And these people, sadistic abusers were sort of promoting. Put Karen Stark up. Karen Stark, did you actually. Do you need a textbook to tell you? I mean, please tell me you haven't fallen under Trey gober spell, please. You need a textbook to say don't make your 8 year old little girl jump in 110 degrees, scorching heat for hours on end without water until she dies. Do I need to read a self help book for that? Well, but that's what it was coming across as, Nancy. It's important to understand that she was promoting it as self help. And actually it was sadistic abuse. But that's not how she was coming across. And nobody understood that until later on when this little boy fortunately escaped. You have to take a look at this punishment which was really abusive. She called it, you know, punishment, but it was control. Breaking down the will of the children, actually dehumanizing them. And that happens in these kinds of situations. It starts like any other night. The glass of red, the cozy blanket. Then the drop, the stain so dark, so stubborn, it might as well have been a crime scene. But this isn't your average couch. This is annabe fully washable unspeakably comfortable, and ready for whatever your life, your kids or your ex throws at it. And here's the kicker. Starting at just 6:99, you can make sure your sofa isn't part of the problem. Fully washable, stain resistant, and built to hide even the darkest offenses. Right now, get up to 60% off in Black Friday savings because no one should have to live with a stain that won't quit. Annabe the only mystery you won't be losing sleepover shop washablesofas.com today that's washablesofas.com the only thing between you and your best self is a start button this Black Friday Explore the world with NordicTrack from the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with IFIT trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com for Black Friday savings. NordicTrack train anywhere. Explore everywhere. Bring incredible sound into every corner of your home this holiday with the new Wimsound smart speaker. Get high resolution audio with a 1.8-inch touchscreen, smart control and modern design in one powerful speaker for just $299. From quiet mornings to lively holiday gatherings, Winsound makes every moment sound better and feel better too. Get the gift of the season for the music enthusiast in your life or for yourself. Whim Sound Beautifully designed, effortlessly connected. Shop now at Amazon and search whimsound. That's Wiimsound. Let's unpack the myths behind GLP1 drugs. Myth number one GLP1 can be a long term solution for weight loss. True, they can if you want to be on a drug that changes your body's natural instincts. Myth number two GLP1 can fix your metabolism. False GLP1s fix hunger and this leads to weight loss. Try the natural GLP1 therapy. Metabolism Ignite get 15% off your first order with promo code iheart@veracityselfcare.com V E R-A-C-I T Y self care.com Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Tom Green Joining me, former Chief Deputy, Washoe county, now PI, owner of Nevada Investigative Services, Tom Green. Looks can be very deceiving because when I just saw a picture of that sweet little girl and her sister, you'd think everything was perfectly fine, right? Same thing with the Turpins BS Tom Green Absolutely. And you know, the other thing that we know in law enforcement is that child abuse happens in secret. And if I recall correctly, this happened during COVID So not only does child abuse happen in secret, but during COVID children were restricted from being around other adults, being around other children, being in public venues, being in school. So the chances for eyes to be on them was reduced greatly. Denying her water. Back to Karen Stark. Joining me, renowned psychologist reminds me again of the evil mistress of Satan, Ruby Frankie. Now, where she needs to be, in the pen, the big dollhouse. Karen Stark, I want you to listen. She actually posted this. It's like the emperor's clothes. Nobody wanted to say she's abusing her children and she's vlogging about it. Here she describes how she wanted to punish her little girl, Tiny little girl, like first grade. Ish. Because the little girl didn't make her own lunch that morning and take it to school. The teacher calls and says, hey, she's hungry. And Ruby Frankie was just totally fine with that. Listen to this. Karen Stark, 911. The address of your emergency. Okay. And the phone number you're calling from. Tell me exactly what's happened. I just had a 12 year old boy show up here at my front door asking for help. And he said he just came from a neighbor's house. And we know there's been problems at this neighbor's house. He's emaciated, he's got tape around his legs, he's hungry and he's thirsty. So back to Kenneth Tre Gober, the enforced exercise, the denial of water. It's a form of child abuse. So your earlier argument, which I respect, I disagree with it, but I respect it might carry the day on a mens rea, malice murder, planning aforethought, intent to commit the crime, even though they forced her to jump for hours and hours and hours. But what about felony murder, which means simply as you know, a death occurs in the commission of a felony, with the underlying felony being child abuse. They're abusing her, an 8 year old girl in 110 degrees, scorching Texas heat on a trampoline. Hours and hours. Punishment for asking for water. That's child abuse. And a death occurred whether they meant for it to occur or not. How would you escape felony murder charges? These underlying facts. Was there water? Was there not water? How much water? Was there? Was there food? Was there not food? There's a lot of conflicting information on that and the jury ultimately has to decide it. But you're absolutely right, there was a death. It's unfortunate. It should not have happened. And so the defense on this case isn't for the defendants to get off scot free. It's to say, hey, this is criminally negligent homicide. This wasn't abuse. This was neglect on the part of the parents, the guardians in this case. And so that's the defense on it. And it's trying to show those facts. It's showing the facts that when Daniel, the adoptive father, the guardian, found the little girl's body, that he sprayed cold water on her body to try to bring her temp down. That's a day late and a dollar short. He'll spray cold water on her body. She's probably already dead. But he wouldn't let her have a sip of water. See, the dichotomy, the harsh dichotomy. The difference, though, is he sprayed water on her gober to save his own skin, to revive her so maybe she wouldn't die. But when she's out there begging for water and begging to come into the AC where they are, that's a big no. If the prosecution's argument is that he wanted her to die, why would he go to any effort to try to revive her? That's. That's the point. That's not what was going on in his head will be the argument of defense. She laid there on that trampoline for at least an hour and a half to two hours before anybody ever even found her. How? WKYT tv. Jalen Schwartz has been jumping on the trampoline in her backyard for well over three hours now, and there seems to be no end in sight. The temperature on the trampoline peaking at a whopping 110 degrees. Her adoptive parents have denied her water and food and demanded she continue jumping until she is told to stop. Exhausted, the little girl passes out. What more do we know? Will this rise to a murder case? Listen. Daniel Schwartz finds Jaylen unresponsive on the trampoline and brings her in the house. Schwartz claims Jalen is wheezing, and they strip her down and spray her with water to cool her down. Daniel begins doing CPR after they realize Jaylen no longer has a pulse, and Ashley says she calls 911 immediately. She was unresponsive. She was having seizures, which is what happens when you're out in the heat too much. But she was unresponsive, and then they rushed her to a hospital, which wasn't too far away. I bet that Kenneth Trey Gaber, trial attorney, really hates it when the forensic evidence disproves what his clients try to say at the time. Don't you just hate it, Trey, when your clients speak to police when they arrive and then you're stuck with their statements? Well, it is good advice to not talk to the police if you've committed a crime. Trey Gober, I'm sure you're familiar by now with all the cases you've tried with rigor mortis. Listen. Police and fire personnel are called to the Schwarz home shortly before 2pm about an unresponsive child. Upon arrival, they determine Jaylen is deceased and is already showing signs of rigor mortis. The scene and condition of Jaylen's body does not match up with the timeline Daniel and Ashley swores are giving police to account for the death of a seemingly healthy child. While Kenneth Trey Gaber is hurriedly trying to fabricate an explanation as to why this 8 year old little girl was already in full throes of rigor. Straight out to Dr. Eric Eason, renowned board certified forensic pathologist. You can find him on Facebook at Eric Auguste Dr. Eason, thank you so much for being with us. Now you hear what the parents are saying, the adoptive parents. They're claiming that Jaylen started wheezing, that they strip her down and spray her with water to cool her down. Start doing CPR and call 911 immediately. So how is it 911EMTS get there in a matter of minutes, but she's already in rigorous rigor mortis, the stiffening of the limbs. It's like a two by four. You can't bend them no matter how hard you try. What is rigor, Dr. Eason? Does temperatures have anything to do with it setting in and how long does it take to go into rigor? Yes, exactly. So temperature rigor first of all is stiffening of the muscles after death. It has to do with depletion of this chemical and muscle called ATP that we learned about in biology class in college and high school. But anyway, temperature has a lot of an effect on rigor mortis. So if you die in an environment that is warm in the surrounding area, or if you're engaging in a lot of physical activity, when your death occurs, the rigor is going to come on a whole lot quicker than if you die in a cooler environment or if you die from like a natural death just kind of laying in bed. So somebody who is having a seizure when they die or they are engaged in a fight or something like that, when the death occurs, the rigor mortis is going to come on a whole lot quicker, it's going to be a lot stronger and then it's going to take a much shorter time to start to go away way because with everyone, once rigor happens, it reaches a maximum point of stiffness and then it'll slowly or it'll disappear after time. Okay, that really wasn't an answer. But I guess I need to give you Dr. Eric Asen some more facts. Not saying it wasn't informative. It was. She was in rigor. She was. If she was in rigor, she was dead. I think you said when they called 911 they said, we know that she was still alive. We know that if you're in rigor mortis and your limbs have stiffened up like two by fours, you're dead. We know that. I'm trying to disprove their lie that they said to cops that now Kenneth Trey Gover stuck with their statement that hey, we just realized she was wheezing. We brought her in, we sprayed her down with cold water and then we called you. It couldn't have happened that way. But let me give you some more data. Okay, Listen to this. Investigators creating a timeline of events for the day according to Ashley and Daniel Schwarz is such that at 1pm Jalen is on the trampoline. At 1:15pm she's playing with the family dogs. And at 1:30pm When Daniel Schwartz takes out the trash, he finds her unresponsive and rushes her inside the house. The first officer is dispatched to the house around 1:45pm and Jalen is pronounced dead by paramedics at 1:55pm so based on the Schwartz's statement, can we determine are they telling the truth? Okay, what more do we know about the timing? Listen, when first responders arrived on scene that rigor mortis had already set into her body. According to a forensic pathologist, along with Jalen, already presenting with rigor mortis and lividity. Pictures taken at the scene show Jaylen suffered sunburn and after death there were signs of skin slippage and she was already starting to decompose when she was declared dead 10 minutes after police are dispatched to her home. Just hearing them describe 8 year old Jill in that way, I know it's true. It just makes my stomach hurt. Now you are hearing some sound from our friends at WKYT tv. Let's analyze what we just heard. Lynn Shaw joining me, Executive director Lynn's warriors. Lynn, let's analyze this. According to a forensic pathologist, Jalen, 8 years old, just turned 8 by the way, already presenting rigor and lividity. Lividity, as you know, is when the blood in your body settles to the lowest common point. Just think about shaking a jug of let's just say chocolate milk and then the milk on the side starts settling down. That's what happens to the blood in the body when you die and your heart is no longer pumping. Let's just say you're lying on your back. All the blood in your body settles down to the back of your head, neck, back, buttocks and the back of your legs. It goes down as it should according to the laws of gravity. So when EMTs get there, Lynn, listen to this. Rigor was in. Lividity had started. I don't know how they determined this. I guess Dr. Eason can tell me. Jellyn suffered sunburn after death, which tells me she laid out for outside in the sun for a period of time long enough to get sunburned. And there was skin slippage and the beginning signs of decomposition. And all this was evident 10 minutes after police were dispatched. They were dispatched as we heard earlier at 1:45. They got there and pronounced her dead at 155. And this child, Lynn Shaw, was already having skin slippage. I mean if you're going to have the death penalty, if, and I'm not going to argue pro or con right now, that's not my issue right now. This would be a great case for it. Skin slippage on an eight year old little girl who apparently lays out in the yard 110°F and get sunburned post mortem. Lynn Shaw, first of all, let's start with not referring to these monsters as parents, adoptive parents, whatever they are. Second of all, I'll argue the death penalty for you, Nancy. Anybody who does anything to a child, I am sorry, in our warriors book, same is done to you. I am sorry that's the way we feel about that. And I want to remind everybody I'm here in New York City the minute it hits 85 degrees. They recommend keep your children indoors, keep your children in air conditioning, keep your children hydrated. If you don't have an air conditioner, go to one of our cooling centers. Does everybody hear what we're talking about? Children jumping on trampolines in 110, maybe 150. This is what we're arguing about. No, no, no. These are monsters. And that her body by the medical professionals. Now, I'm not a doctor and I'm not a lawyer. What they did to this child, child abuse. And I want to hear from her sister. I'm worried about her sister because this isn't their first time that they pulled things like this. Outrage. We should all be outraged. Unacceptable. It starts like any other night. The glass of red, the cozy blanket, then the trough. The stain's so dark, so stubborn, it might as well have been a crime scene. But this isn't your average couch. This is Annabe. Fully washable, unspeakably comfortable and ready for whatever your life, your kids or your ex throws at it. And here's the kicker. Starting at just 6:99, you can make sure your sofa isn't part of the problem. Fully washable, stain resistant, and built to hide even the darkest defenses. Right now, get up to 60% off in black Friday savings because no one should have to live with a stain that won't quit. Annabe the only mystery you won't be losing sleep over shop washablesofas.com today that's washablesofas.com the only thing between you and your best self is a start button this Black Friday Explore the world with Nordica Track from the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with IFIT trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com for Black Friday savings. NordicTrack train anywhere. Explore everywhere. Bring incredible sound into every corner of your home this holiday with the new Wimsound smart speaker. Get high resolution audio with a 1.8-inch touchscreen, smart control and modern design in one powerful speaker for just $2.99. From quiet mornings to lively holiday gatherings, Winsound makes every moment sound better and feel better too. Get the gift of the season for the music enthusiast in your life or for yourself. Whim Sound Beautifully designed, effortlessly connected. Shop now at Amazon and search Whimsound. That's wiimsond a doubly board certified OB gyn, an endocrinologist doctor, a naturopathic and licensed acupuncture doct, and a certified health coach. Walk into a room. What do they talk about? GLP1, of course, but more specifically, the difference between the synthetic version of your body's own hormone that are prescribed by doctors nationwide versus metabolism ignite product, which naturally increases your body's GLP1 by 55%. GLP1 slows digestion, leading to bloating and discomfort versus metabolism ignite, which supports your digestion and gut health. GLP1 side effect can lead to nausea, fatigue and muscle loss, whereas Metabolism Ignite is powered by plants and there are no side effects. Some long term results of GLP1 links to weight gain after stopping the synthetic drug which has been proven in multiple studies. In comparison to metabolism ignite, there is no weight regain and this product supports metabolic health. The prognosis these three medical practitioners all agree upon. Visit veracityselfcare.com and receive 15% off your first purchase with promo code iheartrading crime stories with Nancy Grace Dr. Eric Eason Skin Slippage. By the time EMTs had gotten there in the 10 minutes since the the parents called, she had been dead for a while in extreme heat. That's why that skin slippage is occurring by the time that you saw it on her? Yes. What is scan slippage? How long do you give it? What does it mean? I mean, it's a shocking fact, but I've got to turn that into something probative or not probative. Does it prove anything? For me it's a postmortem change. And so when death occurs, the skin will just start to peel itself off of the body and heat can accelerate it and it'll happen a whole lot quicker. But it's just one of the postmortem changes that occurs. Same thing as rigor and lividity. Skin slippage is part of that. You mean your skin starts coming off your body? That's right. What could they possibly mean, Dr. Eason? That decomp had already started. She probably started having the skin discoloration that you typically see with decomposition. It's called marbling. And that's where bacteria starts to grow inside the body and will start to form in the veins and cause this purple green discoloration in the skin. That combined with the skin slippage is probably what they were talking about. It is hot in the summer. It's western Texas. And you know, not only does it get hot, but then, you know, above the average temperature, sometimes you get something called a heat index where it just feels hotter. We have something called the humidity and it makes the temperature feel even warmer. But also it depends on what you're around. If you're around things that radiate heat too, it just makes it hotter. So we're not always, not just talking about the Texas heat here. We're talking about, you know, it could be upwards of 110. You know how many times I've driven around in the minivan with the twins singing Let It Go from Frozen? That was Jalen and her sister singing Let it Go in the back of the car. Jalen is dead from being forced to jump on a scorching hot trampoline for hours on end as punishment, exercise, denying food. There's so many ways to abuse a little child. It was never more evident than in the case of little Corey. Look at video evidence that we obtained. It was used in court of his father straight from Hades, forcing the little boy, six years old. This is Christopher Gregor forcing the little boy to run and run, forcing him back on, accelerating the treadmill. At certain points, he would pick the boy up and hold him over the treadmill till his feet could start running again. In one moment, he actually bites the little boy on the head. Needless to say, Cory dies after suffering seizures from his quote, workout with dad. Erica Miller joining me from kmid, Big two News. Isn't it true that Jalen went into seizures before she died? She did. In court. The mom tried to describe it as she was playing with a dog, but the prosecuting attorney said that it was more like, and I believe the medical examiners as well, that it was more likely that she was having seizures, was delirious and was not in fact playing with the dogs, but was lying on the ground actively dying when they assumed she was playing with the dogs. Who are these people? Erica Miller, why did they even take Jellyn and her sister if all they wanted to do is torture them? What were the other forms of abuse on the girls? Sure, Nancy, they shaved their heads for a punishment because they had allegedly been bullying. They I know that on Thursday before Jalen died, the girls were hit with two by fours to the point that it left bruising. They were described as paddles, but they were two by fours. They were disciplined again on that Friday. But the little, the youngest, Jade, I can't remember her name, but the youngest daughter, when she told police that she stayed inside because she needed to write lines, she was having one form of punishment. And Ashley said, well, no, she wasn't. They weren't being punishment. She just thought she was. But that's so telling, I believe because she these kids just were always suffering some form of punishment or another. That's not normal. I have three children. It is not normal to have to punish children day in and day out. It just is. That's not normal. That is abuse. Karen, start joining me. Renowned psychologist Karen I'm just a trial lawyer. What is that? When a person enjoys inflicting so much pain on someone weaker or less cunning than they are, such as a child, that's somebody, Nancy, who really is sadistic and has absolutely no empathy. So they're calling it punishment but we know it's domination and control and they are really enjoying it. These children aren't real to them. These children are dolls. They could be anything. They could be the board that they hit them with because they are not seeing them human beings. They've been dehumanized and they are capable of actually enjoying that kind of punishment and increasing it until the point where a child dies. To Trey Gober, veteran trial lawyer, partner of Lee Gober and Raina there in Texas. You know, Troy, I've been giving you a hard time, but. But I really don't envy what you have to do sometimes to represent people. They're not just killers. They're sadistic killers that enjoy hurting, inflicting pain on somebody else. Yet you believe in our Constitution so strongly you go into court and fight for them. It's enough to make me want to drink. And I'm a teetotaler. Trey. Yeah, some cases are much more difficult than others, especially cases that involve children. Nancy, all lawyers will tell you that at the end of the day, by protecting the rights of the worst of us, we protect the rights of the best of us under the constitutional. And that's something that as lawyers we all swear the oath to do every day. All these facts, all this bad stuff, all the tragedy that occurs, it's something we wish simply wouldn't happen. But at the end of the day, the prosecution has the burden and somebody has to take on the job to make sure that the state carries its burden. Somebody has to. And I guess that somebody would be you, Trey, with all of your good grades in law school and all of your experience in the courtroom. Man, I'd go just be a greeter at Costco before I would represent these two. But hey, that's just me. Tom Green, do you ever get just weary or exhausted investigating cases like this? A little 8 year old girl with skin slippage? Yeah. You know, these cases are cumulative for investigators. They really are. I can remember back in 1992 when I was hired at the sheriff's office, we had three sadistic child killers in the jail. And I worked in the unit they were in. I had to feed them and supervise them and keep them safe from other inmates. And just knowing what they had done, it takes a toll on your soul. And when you have to attend an autopsy or when you have to, you know, tell other loved ones about what happened to a child at the hand of another, at least a lasting impression on you, it does. These two will end up doing a long time behind bars. But is it ever enough. We stop now and remember an American hero. Corporal David Jones, Benton County Sheriff's, Missouri passed away in the line of duty after 45 years with Le survived by wife turned widow, Josie children Allison, Lindsey, Crystal, Troy, Travis and 17 grands. American hero and Corporal D. David Jones, Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye friend. The only thing between you and your best self is a start button this Black Friday explore the world with NordicTrack from the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with iFit trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com for Black Friday savings. NordicTrack train anywhere explore everywhere. Bring incredible sound into every corner of your home this holiday with the new Whimsound smart speaker. Get high resolution audio with a 1.8-inch touchscreen, smart control and modern design in one powerful speaker for just $2.99. From quiet mornings to lively holiday gatherings, WinSound makes every moment sound better and feel better too. Get the gift of the season for the music enthusiast in your life or for yourself. Whim sound beautifully designed, effortlessly connected. Shop now at Amazon and search Whimsound. That's wiimsound. I use Shipt same day delivery to stay connected with my sister during the holidays. She lives across the country. Shipt has tons of stores to order from groceries from Albertsons, crafts from Michaels, even pet supplies from petsmart. The list goes on. So when we have long distance movie nights, I turn to Shipt to get face masks, snacks and everything else we need delivered to her and to me same day. Download the app or visit shipt.com that's s-h I-P-T.com a doubly board certified OB GYN, an endocrinologist doctor, a naturopathic and licensed acupuncture doct, a certified health coach Walk into a room. What do they talk about? GLP1 of course, but more specifically the difference between the synthetic version of your body's own hormone that are prescribed by doctors nationwide versus metabolism ignite product, which naturally increases your body's GLP1 by 55%. GLP1 slows digestion leading to bloating and discomfort versus metabolism ignite which supports your digestion and gut health. GLP1 side effects can lead lead to nausea, fatigue and muscle loss, whereas Metabolism Ignite is powered by plants and there are no side effects. Some long term results of GLP1 links to weight gain after stopping the synthetic drug, which has been proven in multiple studies. In comparison to metabolism ignite, there is no weight regain and this product supports metabolic health. The prognosis these three medical practitioners all agree upon. Visit verasityselfcare.com and receive 15% off your first purchase us with promo code iHEART. This is an iHEART podcast. Guaranteed Human.