HORROR 911 AUDIO OF TRAIN-STAB VICTIM REVEAL IRYNA’S FINAL MOMENTS, ‘BLOODY & HOPELESS’

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: HORROR 911 AUDIO OF TRAIN-STAB VICTIM REVEAL IRYNA’S FINAL MOMENTS, ‘BLOODY & HOPELESS’
Date: October 8, 2025
Host: Nancy Grace
Guests: Randy Kessler, Karen Stark, Dr. Thomas Coyne, Susan Hendricks, Ron Bateman, Andy Kahn

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Overview

This gripping episode of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace dives deep into the chilling murder of Iryna Brown, a Ukrainian immigrant brutally stabbed to death on public transportation. Nancy and her panel analyze disturbing newly released 911 calls and surveillance footage, the harrowing final moments of Iryna’s life, and the broader failures of the criminal justice system that led to her death. They examine both the emotional and legal implications, pondering the death penalty, mental illness as a defense, and the devastating consequences of recidivism and criminal justice reform.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Case Context & 911 Audio Analysis

(02:11 - 08:02, 09:28 - 15:01, 21:06 - 29:01)

• Nancy introduces Iryna’s shocking murder on mass transit, playing harrowing 911 calls from traumatized witnesses.
• Nancy immediately flags that the newly released audio is “very, very disturbing” and sets the tone for an unfiltered look at the crime.
• The emotional impact of reliving Iryna’s last moments is palpable in both the caller’s and the host’s voices.
• Karen Stark (forensic psychologist): “The man is in tears. The man is crying and he says, I was standing right beside her. He’s going to have those nightmares the rest of his life.” (08:23)
• Panic and resignation are present in the voices of bystanders and medics, highlighting the trauma and helplessness of the scene.

2. Why Is This a Death Penalty Case?

(03:32 - 05:14)

• Nancy Grace: Mass transit murders are “death penalty cases” not just because of the individual victim, but because such attacks “create chaos when citizens are afraid to step on a bus. Chaos is why this is a death penalty case.”

  • “Mass transit, government. Who’s going to get on a bus or a train if this guy’s walking free with a bloody knife?” (04:20)

• Randy Kessler (trial lawyer): “That’s all they need is to pass the threshold… because it’s on public transportation that authorizes the death penalty.” (03:32)

3. Graphic Details of the Attack

(09:54 - 16:49, 35:46, 60:31)

• Dr. Thomas Coyne (Chief Medical Examiner) explains the lethality:
  • “The stab wound was likely to the neck just around the collarbone area… If the blade is long enough, it could certainly have cut the aorta or some of the branches… You can bleed out probably half of your total blood volume in less than about a two minute period.” (10:17, 11:19)
• Dr. Coyne describes the inevitability of death from such a wound, echoing the resignation heard in the medic’s 911 call.

4. Bystanders’ Action and Desensitization

(25:33 - 29:01, 57:44 - 60:08)

• Many train passengers did not assist Iryna—instead, they videoed her dying; this is condemned by Nancy and guests.
• Ron Bateman (former homicide detective): “Are we so desensitized that we have totally thrown away the victim’s dignity and respect… This is really despicable that the media released this video.” (57:44, 59:09)

5. Suspect Behavior: Evidence of Guilt or Insanity?

(16:49 - 19:40, 29:01 - 39:53, 41:05 - 43:52)

• Video analysis shows the suspect calmly removing bloodied clothing and attempting to blend in after the attack.
• Nancy: “Isn’t it true under the law, intent can be formed in the blink of an eye?” She emphasizes, “Time right there. Under the law to form intent. She comes and sits down. He’s staring at her, stares at her like a wolf, and then pulls his knife, looks at it, unfolds it and stands up to murder her.” (38:14-39:22)
• Randy Kessler: Proposes mental insanity as the only plausible defense, referencing the “old McNaughton test” (insanity means not knowing right from wrong at the moment). (32:38)

6. Recidivism and Criminal Justice Reform Failures

(42:14 - 47:19, 54:09 - 55:30)

• The suspect (“Brown”) had 14 prior arrests and had just been released on a personal recognizance bond weeks earlier.
• Andy Kahn (victim services/advocacy): “This is a total cataclysmic criminal justice system failure… This was so utterly preventable… The criminal justice reform movement has led to more victimization, more murders than any other natural disaster in this country’s history.” (43:52, 54:09)
• Discussion covers the judge’s “limp noodle” record (Judge Teresa Stokes) and the futility of simply asking chronic offenders to “promise” to return for court dates. (47:19, 56:05)

7. Legal Strategies and the Insanity Defense

(49:19 - 53:37)

• Competency vs. insanity discussed:
  • Competency: Can the accused assist in their trial/defense?
  • Insanity: Did the accused know right from wrong at the time of the act?
• Nancy: “The first and the last rule in the defense playbook: delay, delay, delay… Memories fade. Witnesses actually die or move.” (52:15)
• Multiple legal options (guilty but mentally ill, not guilty by reason of insanity) are explained, with Kessler noting variations by state law. (53:37)

8. Victim Background and Aftermath

(61:22 - 61:45)

• Iryna fled war-torn Ukraine for a better life in the US, working two jobs and supporting her family.
• Her mother—when offered to repatriate Iryna’s body—insisted she remain in the U.S. as that was her dream, illustrating both her new roots and the tragedy’s irony.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Emotional Impact

• Nancy Grace [05:14]: “Chaos—that is why this is a death penalty case. Because Iryna was murdered on mass transit, which is an arm of the government and… creates chaos when citizens are afraid to step on a bus.”
• Karen Stark [14:24]: “She’s looking down. She looked down at her stab. She’s dying right in front of us.”
• Dr. Coyne [11:19]: “You could lose, you know, a couple liters of blood within a couple minute window—a very small window of time.”
• Andy Kahn [43:52]: “This is not just a North Carolina, it’s a national issue… The criminal justice reform movement has led to more victimization, more murders than any other natural disaster in this country’s history.”

Legal Insight

• Randy Kessler [18:13]: “You don’t lead with, ‘look, he’s covering it up.’ When you’ve got a video of him actually stabbing her, you don’t need to start with, ‘hey, he was trying to cover it up.’”
• Nancy Grace [31:08]: “State doesn’t have to prove motive. There doesn’t have to be a why. All I have to know is who did it, did they have intent and am I in the right jurisdiction.”
• Kessler [32:38]: "That’s the old McNaughton test… Did the suspect know right from wrong at the time of the incident?"
• Karen Stark [56:21]: “He said, she was reading my mind. Which tells me that he has a rationalization… he understands he did something and he wants to come up with some kind of an explanation. So I see intent. I see somebody who knew exactly what he was doing.”

Systemic Critique

• Nancy Grace [56:07]: “This monster should have been locked up and Iryna should still be alive… Think about how crazy it is to ask a career criminal… to just sign a written promise and come back again another day. This is madness.”
• Andy Kahn [54:09]: “I get sick and tired of naming laws after dead people. Now we have a new law named after Iryna that hopefully others won’t end up with the same fate as she has now become.”

Media Critique

• Ron Bateman [57:44, 60:05]: "Are we so desensitized… that their parents probably saw [her murder] and didn’t learn about it in private? That is so desensitized. ... Are we going to show the firing squad? ... We just care about this little sound bite to get some attention, which is horrible."

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Mass transit, death penalty rationale: 03:32–05:14
• 911 calls/audio analysis: 06:11–08:02, 09:28–15:01, 21:06–29:01
• Medical insight into fatal wounds: 09:54–16:49, 60:31
• Suspect’s actions after the crime (intent, insanity): 16:49–19:40, 29:01–39:53
• Criminal record, judge’s leniency, reform critique: 42:14–47:19, 54:09–56:05
• Competency vs. insanity legal strategy: 49:19–53:37
• Victim’s background and family decision: 61:22–61:45

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Overall Tone

Nancy Grace and her panel keep the atmosphere intense, outraged, and no-nonsense, embodying the frustration of ordinary citizens with a justice system perceived as broken. The episode is emotional but heavily grounded in the legal and forensic details, providing both a factual breakdown and a resounding call for accountability.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode meticulously unpacks the horror of Iryna Brown’s public stabbing—from witnesses’ agonized 911 calls, through step-by-step legal analysis of culpability and mental insanity defense, to a scathing indictment of policies that allowed a violent repeat offender back onto the streets. Listeners will come away with a deep understanding of the emotional, legal, and systemic dimensions of the case—and the urgent questions it poses for both justice and public safety in America.

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Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

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[Randy Kessler]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk. Crazy weather we're having. No, it's not.

[Andy Khan]

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[Randy Kessler]

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[Morgan]

Of $45 for 3 month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first 3 months full price plan. Options available. Taxes and fees extra. Cmintmobile.com hi, I'm Morgan. I have three kids. I have an IQ of 160. I work with the cops.

[Randy Kessler]

You're a cop?

[Morgan]

No, but they do sign my paychecks.

[Nancy Grace]

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[Ron Bateman]

She was abducted. You knew that already, didn't you?

[Morgan]

Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one.

[Nancy Grace]

And one of the best new crime procedurals.

[Ron Bateman]

You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you?

[Karen Stark]

Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

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[Randy Kessler]

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[Morgan]

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[Randy Kessler]

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[Andy Khan]

For bundle subscribers terms apply.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy grace the horror 911 audio. The train stabbing victim Irena reveals her final desperate moments and what is described by witnesses as a bloody and hopeless sane. Can anybody say death penalty? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[911 Operator / Caller]

This is Charlotte911. Be a police, fire medic. We own a plane. This man just stabbed this woman for no reason. I'm still in the trouble.

[Nancy Grace]

Why did Irena have to die? Stabbed dead on public transportation?

[911 Operator / Caller]

Okay, what's happening? You said a male stabbed someone for no reason. Do they need medicine? It's on the screen. Yeah, it's a.

[Nancy Grace]

The community still reeling. Now, what makes this murder different from other murders? I'm about to play you that newly released audio and I've got to warn you up front, it's very, very disturbing. Straight out to veteran trial lawyer who represents a lot of high Profile clients. Randy Kessler, Emory Law School professor, former chair, ABA Family Law Section, author of Divorce Protect Yourself, your kids and your future. Kessler. This case is a death penalty case because the aggravating circumstance is the murder, according to the state, occurred on mass transit. In a nutshell. Okay, you're not delivering a speech at the ABA for why is that an aggravating circumstance? Randy Kessler.

[Randy Kessler]

That's all they need is to pass the threshold. And in the law, they're allowed to ask for the death penalty because it's on public transportation. But the sympathetic factor, Nobody wants this guy around. They're going to get a good shot at the death penalty. All they needed was the avenue to get in. They've got it because it's public transportation that authorizes the death penalty.

[Andy Khan]

Ask.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, you do know what you just did, right? Put Kessler up. That is not working. I said, why is it a death penalty? Because it's on mass transit. And you say like three times, it's death penalty because it's on mass transit. That's not an answer. You just regurgitated my question. But you did it beautifully, and now I see why you win so many cases and snow appellate court judges. I hope they're not watching right now for your sake. Mass transit killings or DP Death penalty. Because much like a titular murder, where a governor or a senator or a president, a judge is killed, it's not just the individual, it's what they represent. That's why that or a police officer. That's why those are death penalty cases. This is a. Am I actually Q and A with myself? Kessler? This is a death penalty case. Mass transit, because it's what it represents. Mass transit, government. Who's going to get on a bus or a train if this guy's walking free with a bloody knife?

[Randy Kessler]

Well, that's the reason for the death penalty. You want to find the cases where a death penalty is really going to have a chilling effect. Hopefully it's going to scare other people. But the problem is, Nancy, nobody's going to not kill somebody because they might get death instead of life in prison. To me, it should be death penalty because jury wants it.

[Nancy Grace]

Really? Because I don't want old Sparky. I don't want the needle and now the firing squad. Well, long story short, that is why this is a death penalty case. Because Irena was murdered on mass transit, which is an arm of the government and there's arena right now. And because it creates chaos when citizens are afraid to step on a bus. Chaos that is why this is a death penalty case. But I want to get back. This is something that Kessler loathes and hates. When a 911 audio is played in front of a jury. Why do you hate that so much, Kessler? Because I love it.

[Randy Kessler]

They say a picture's worth a thousand words and audio is worth 10,000 words. There's no way to unring that bell, period. Jury hears that, that equals conviction.

[Nancy Grace]

Let's take a listen and see if he's right.

[911 Operator / Caller]

This is Charlotte 911. Do you need police, fire, medic? We own a plane. Stab this woman for no reason. I'm stand right beside her. You said a male stabbed someone for no reason. Do they need medic? It's on the screen. You have to clean it. Okay, stand line with medic. Mexican county fire. What is the address of the emergency? We are right at the. What is this? Right across from Abercrombie and East and West Boulevard. A train station.

[Nancy Grace]

Yeah, Kessler, you're right. This man calling 91 1. What he observed makes a grown man cry. He's crying, Kessler. How do you think the jury's gonna react to that?

[Randy Kessler]

He is the jury. The jury sees themselves in him. That's the. That's the whole point of the audio. You can sympathize, empathize, whatever the word is. You see yourself and you don't ever want to be in his position. You don't ever want to witness that. You don't want to experience it, and you don't want a loved one to experience it. And you feel it. It's emotionally draining. It hits you right here. That's a conviction. That audio equals conviction to me.

[Nancy Grace]

I want to hear that one. I'm going to go to the Next. The next 911, but I want to hear that one more time. We're hearing a grown man witness breaking down in tears over what just happened to Irena. Listen, this is Charlotte 911.

[911 Operator / Caller]

Do you need police, fire, medic? You said a male stabbed someone for no reason.

[Morgan]

Do they need medicine?

[911 Operator / Caller]

You have to clean it. Okay, stand line with medic, medic and county fire. What is the address of the emergency? We are right at the. What is this? Right across from Abercrombie east and West Boulevard, the train station.

[Nancy Grace]

With me, a renowned forensic psychologist, TV, radio, trauma expert consultant is Karen Stark@karen stark.com. karen, thank you for being with us. The man is in tears. The man is crying and he says, I was standing right beside her. He's going to have those nightmares the rest of his life.

[Karen Stark]

Without a doubt, Nancy, that's trauma, terrible trauma. Because just imagine, I want everyone to imagine being there on a train, innocently going wherever you're going, and then you see somebody being stabbed for no reason at all.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, my stars. Look, Karen. Karen Stark. Do you see the video? The guy is walking around. Here he is, he's about to stand up. He's fumbling in his pocket for his knife. Plenty of time to form intent. You see what's on the. Do you see what's on the floor? He's wandering around with a knife, dripping with blood. I guess the 911 caller is traumatized.

[Karen Stark]

KAREN STARK Without a doubt, absolutely, Nancy, how could you not be? I think everyone who witnessed that will be traumatized. How many people see something like that recently riding on a train?

[Nancy Grace]

Hopefully none. Guys, we have just obtained the newly released 911 calls.

[911 Operator / Caller]

Listen, there's just a lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed. And I don't know if anybody's called 911 yet. People are just freaking out. Okay, I want to get some more information. Are you with the patient now? Yes, she's on the train. She's on the train. She's on the ground right now. There's people around her right now. I think they're holding pressure on this one site. There's a lot of blood.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us, Dr. Thomas Coyne, Chief Medical Examiner, District 2, Medical Examiner's Office, State of Florida. Never lack a business there. Pathologist, toxicologist, neuropathologist. It goes on and on. Dr. Coyne, thank you for being with us. What are they trying. The medic is trying to explain what's happening. What's happening.

[Dr. Thomas Coyne]

Sure. So, I mean, from watching the horrible video, you can see that the stab wound was likely to the neck just around the collarbone area. And in that area you had several major arteries. If the blade is long enough, it could certainly have cut the aorta or some of the branches of the aorta, including the carotid artery. Those vessels carry blood about a half a liter to 3/4 of a liter per minute. So if you can imagine, if that vessel is cut, you can bleed out probably half of your total blood volume in less than about a two minute period. So what they're trying to do is put pressure on that area, or at least I hope they're trying to put pressure on that area to stop the bleeding, but very hard to put pressure on that area because it's your neck. The collarbone is in the way. So it's hard to actually stop the blood from splurging out.

[Andy Khan]

It's a.

[Dr. Thomas Coyne]

Most times these wounds are fatal. It's almost impossible to get this person to the hospital on time.

[Nancy Grace]

You said you can lose half your blood in less than two minutes.

[Dr. Thomas Coyne]

Yes, because blood flow here, these vessels carry blood at high volume and fast rate. And so when you cut that blood vessel, it will spurt out. Every time the heart beats, blood will spurt out. And yes, you could lose, you know, a couple liters of blood within a couple minute. Window small. A very small window of time.

[Nancy Grace]

Guys, I want to hear. Hear the tone that the medic has in the 911 call. Listen to the medic.

[911 Operator / Caller]

There's just a lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood, and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed. And I don't know if anybody's called 911 yet. People are just freaking out. Okay, I want to get some more information. Are you with the patient now? Yes, she's on the train. On the train. She's on the train. She's on the ground right now. There's people around her right now. I think they're holding pressure on this wound site. There's a lot of blood.

[Nancy Grace]

And Dr. Thomas Coyne, you're our only medical doctor today. I hear resignation. I hear resignation. The medic's not going.

[Andy Khan]

Hurry, hurry, hurry.

[Nancy Grace]

Get here. Hurry, hurry. It's like she's on the ground. She's. She's a lot of blood. They know, don't they? Dr. Coyne, have you ever felt that when you're trying your best to save a patient and you know, there's just nothing you can do, but you're trying anyway?

[Dr. Thomas Coyne]

During my early years of training, yeah. And especially in the trauma centers in the hospital where you have, you know, the injury is most likely fatal, but you're doing everything you can just to keep that patient alive. And when you have an injury like this and you've lost so much blood, it's almost impossible to get in there and repair it in time to save the patient. It's just. It's a horrible experience.

[Nancy Grace]

I know that all of the newly released 911 audio is upsetting, but to me, this one with the medic made me the most upset. Because, you know, when you're in a crisis situation, a lot of people, including me, just power through it. And it's only after it's over that you think, oh, my God. Stars. I nearly X. Or she nearly X was hit by a car or fell off the tree or it's after it's over that you have a sigh of relief. But here I hear the resignation in the medic's voice.

[911 Operator / Caller]

Listen, there's a lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood, and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed. And I don't know if anybody's called 911 yet. People are just freaking out. Okay, I want to get some more information. Are you with the patient now?

[Ron Bateman]

Yes.

[911 Operator / Caller]

She's on the train. On the train. She's on the train. She's on the ground right now. There's people around her right now. I think they're holding pressure on this wound site. There's a lot of blood.

[Nancy Grace]

Karen, start. That was the most upsetting part of. Of all the 911 we're about to play.

[Karen Stark]

Well, because you hear it in her voice when she sighs, Nancy. But I also want to point out in watching that video that Rin is suffering. It's not that he stabs her and she doesn't know what's going on. You can very clearly see the horror on her face, the pain and the fact that she's suffering, holding her mouth before she falls down and ultimately dies.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, gosh. You're right, Karen. She's looking down. She's looking down. She looked down at her stab. You're right, Karen. She's just.

[Karen Stark]

Ugh.

[Nancy Grace]

She's dying right in front of us. Here's more of the 911 calls.

[911 Operator / Caller]

Did you see the person who stabbed the female at all? No, I did not. We were on a different train car down the road line, and this is in the very last train park. I think the person stabbed him is gone. She's stabbed in the carotid. I believe it looks like she has, but we're not 100% confident that she's gone. I'm not supposed to. There's a lot of people around her. They're all saying it's gone. The pupils are blown out and there's no Pulse.

[Nancy Grace]

Back to Dr. Thomas Coyne. Two things. What does that mean? Stabbed in the carotid and the pupils are blown out. Whoever this is seems to have medical training. What does that mean?

[Dr. Thomas Coyne]

Yeah, sure. So the carotid artery is. That is the main artery that supplies blood to our brain. So it travels within our neck, along the lateral sides of our neck. It's where you would feel your pulse if you put your fingers on your neck. That's the carotid artery, and it's one of the arteries that this certainly could have cut in that area of her neck, and it will pump a high volume of blood out of the body. If cut, the pupils being blown just likely indicates that she's lost normal neurologic function. And as you can imagine, if those arteries are cut, the blood supply to her brain has been severed. And so within probably less than a minute's time, her brain's not getting the oxygen or blood flow it needs, and therefore her brain's not being responsive. So her pupils are blown, her cranial nerves in her brain stem are not working like they should, and those just simply really speak to her dire situation.

[Nancy Grace]

Randy Kessler, a veteran trial lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Randy, I know you're looking at the video right now. You, You. You do see the suspect changing clothes, getting rid of his bloody clothes. Isn't it true, Kessler, that the jury can consider behavior before, during, and after the crime to determine guilt? The guy's getting rid of his bloody clothes before he steps off the train. That indicates he knows there'll be a problem if he goes out on that platform covered in blood.

[Randy Kessler]

Right. And personally, this probably goes more to the sentencing, right? In normal cases, at flight, if you're leaving a scene and you're trying to get away, you're trying to escape, you're trying to hide, that shows you did something wrong. You're trying to get away. In this case, we know he did it. We've got him dead to rights.

[Nancy Grace]

E, double L, N, O. I spelled it out for you. That can be used as evidence of.

[Randy Kessler]

Guilt, of course, but what I'm telling.

[Nancy Grace]

You is for many generations, it was actually a jury charge that the judge would give the jury. Somehow the defense bar got rid of that, but the jury can consider that as evidence of guilt. He's trying to get rid of his bloody shirt. That's not sentencing.

[Randy Kessler]

No, but you don't. You're right, Nancy, but you don't lead with that. You don't lead with, look, he's covering it up. When you've got a video of him actually stabbing her, you don't need to start with, hey, he was trying to cover it up. You got him dead to rights on the conviction. That's going to go further to, he wasn't mentally insane. He knew that what he did was wrong. Takes away the insanity defense, takes away any excuse for why he did this.

[Nancy Grace]

Other than, what are you drinking? What do you mean, what am I doing? You drinking? Smoking. I was going to leave with guilty conscience. I'm going to leave with that video and the 911 calls, that's the state's strongest evidence. I would go with the video, then I'm on calls. And then the witnesses. Every single person sitting in that train car, even though they didn't help. Which they're going to get cross examined on. Yes, that's what I would lead. And then I'd bring on Dr. Thomas Coyne, and then I would bring on Ron Bateman, and then I would bring on Andy Kahn, and then I would bring on Susan Hendricks. Just like that. But evidence of guilty conscience, that's the last thing I bring up. But you darn right I'll bring it on.

[Randy Kessler]

Sure, you're just piling on and it's icing on the cake. It's extra. But really you don't need it. That's why I think it goes more towards sentencing. Because is there a question that there's any reason why this guy should be given any breaks? No. He knew what he did was wrong. That's what that does for me. It doesn't help. You don't need it for the conviction. I mean, sooner or later it's going to be overkill. You got him dead to rights. He's guilty of the crime. Now what do we do about it? Put him to death because he knew.

[Nancy Grace]

He can't help himself.

[Randy Kessler]

I can't.

[Nancy Grace]

Kessler. I love it when defense attorneys start saying it's overkill. Stop. You're piling on. Isn't it true the state has one swing at the ball if there's an ng? Not guilty. Your technical legal phrase, screwed. You have one chance. Why not put on all your evidence? When a defense attorney starts squealing and whining, Overkill, piling on. That's when I really dig in.

[Randy Kessler]

You can use it, you can add it. But again, it's not my emphasis. The emphasis is on the act, the actual crime. Sometimes you don't have the photographic or the videographic evidence of the killing and the murder, of the crime. So that's more important in this case. I'm just saying it's much less important than actually what happened. What happened is terrible. It's on video. He's done, he's convicted. That is. It is overkill. It is extra. Sure, use it, Nancy. Throw it in there. But I would say to the jury, we're going to show you this, but you don't really even need it because you've already got enough to convict him. But just in case there was any.

[Nancy Grace]

Doubt, you're really not helping the defense right now. You know that, right? You're really not helping the defense.

[Randy Kessler]

I'm just trying to explain it for the audience.

[Nancy Grace]

I've got something for you, Kessler. All right, you ready? I don't know more. 91 1. Let's take a listen to the newly released audio.

[911 Operator / Caller]

I think you do, man. I think the girl might be dead, man. The fire person's got here, but there's no police presence. And the guy that did it is standing over here on the ramp. Yeah, he's on the other platform. He's a black male. He has dreadlocks. He got his hand wrapped up in a red jacket, a black T shirt because his paint is like hanging off his hands.

[Nancy Grace]

Not anymore he doesn't. Let's see that video of him changing clothes.

[Morgan]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe. Where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anabe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop [e-mail] Authors are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply. Hi, I'm Morgan. I have three kids. I have an IQ of 160. I work with the cops.

[Randy Kessler]

You're a cop?

[Morgan]

No, but they do sign my paychecks.

[Nancy Grace]

Kaitlin Olsen returns in high potential. The number one drama.

[Ron Bateman]

She was abducted. You knew that already, didn't you?

[Morgan]

Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one.

[Nancy Grace]

And one of the best new crime procedurals.

[Ron Bateman]

You're waiting on me to leave circumstances. You can poke around without a warrant, aren't you?

[Andy Khan]

Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

High potential. New Tuesdays, 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu. What kind of man would let this happen to his family?

[Randy Kessler]

Inspired by shocking actual events I'm working.

[Morgan]

On the story about the Murdochs. Their abuses of power are playing out in real time.

[Randy Kessler]

Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark. It's only cheap if you get caught. Hulu Original Series Murdoch Death in The Family premieres October 15th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.

[Andy Khan]

For bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

[Morgan]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty.

[Nancy Grace]

When Dr. Sabah and I decided to.

[Morgan]

Do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women beauty, meaningful beauty, which means each and every product is meaningful.

[Nancy Grace]

It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious.

[Morgan]

You're going to get results and then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful beauty. Confidence is beautiful. Learn more at meaningfulbeauty.com.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Susan Hendricks, joining us, investigative journalist, author of down the My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Susan, the 911 caller, another one of them, you know, a lot of the people on the train, which totally is totally reprehensible, they don't even try to help her. They start videoing her dying. What a bunch of ghouls. However. Yeah, go on and video that. I guess he posted it. Long story short, several people did call 911 and this last call we played describes the defendant. He was standing on the ramp. Now he's on another platform, dreadlocks. He's got his hand wrapped in a red jacket because he cut his hand, a black T shirt. He's got on blue jeans, black T shirt, hand wrapped up, dreads. We've got him on video changing clothes. And there he goes, guys, this is newly released video. And there he goes walking off like nothing happened. Susan Hendricks, what's happening in the video right here that we're showing?

[Karen Stark]

We're seeing the police move in on this guy and make the arrest. Nancy, it's so disturbing. I watched that entire video this morning. She was stabbed quickly three times in the neck. And you mentioned it earlier, that look of horror. She's looking down, probably is realizing what is happening to her. She's dying before our very eyes. What you're looking at now is the police move in. And that last 911 call, Nancy, you hear him say, no police presence. Where is everyone? He's panicked, too. And I believe she falls over and dies before her very eyes on that video. That is huge. Huge. That, of course, is what they'll play in court. But you're looking at the arrest. The video we just saw.

[911 Operator / Caller]

I think the girl might be dead. Man's Got here, but there's no police presence. And the guy that did it standing over here on the ramp? Yeah, he's on the other platform. He's a black male, dreadlock. He got his hand wrapped up in a red jacket, a black T shirt, because his thing was, like, hanging off his hand. He got dreadlocks. He got on blue. Blue jeans, a black T shirt, and his hand is wrapped up. He got long drills. No, he got a black T shirt on, the hoodies wrapped around his hand. Okay, there's this lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood, and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed.

[Morgan]

That's when he got up. And he subsequently stabbed her three times.

[911 Operator / Caller]

She's on the ground right now. There's people around her.

[Randy Kessler]

I think they're both.

[911 Operator / Caller]

There's a lot of blood.

[Nancy Grace]

We just endured the Charlie Kirk murder, and whether you agree with him or disagree with him, whether you like him or hate him, it doesn't matter. He was murdered. Do you recall the suspect jumped down off the roof and took off and tried to blend in? And he did blend in with all the other students his age. Same thing here. I want you to take a look as we're playing that 911 call, one of them at the defendant just moseying off. Okay, Listen, I think she dead, man.

[911 Operator / Caller]

I think the girl might be dead, man. The fire protestants got here, but there's no police presence. And the guy that did it is standing over here on the ramp. Yeah, he's on the other platform. He's a black male, dreadlock. He got his wrapped up in a red jacket, a black T shirt because his fingers are hanging off his hand. He got dreadlocks. He got on blue jeans, a black T shirt, and his hand is wrapped up. He's got long dreads. No, he got a black T shirt on, the hoodies wrapped around his hand.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, and what I want you to look at. Let's see the video, please, of him getting off the train and just calmly walking away, much as Tyler Robinson did. Police are swarming the area. He's just, like, walking away. Don't look at me. I'm normal. I'm not running from the scene. I'm totally chill. Check it out. Just wandering along until the 911 calls that described what he was wearing. Nail him. He's just blending in, Kessler. He does not want to bring attention to himself by running. His hand is dripping with blood. Is he in a hurry to get to the dock in a box? No, because he doesn't Want police to see him running, right?

[Randy Kessler]

And there's two explanations, right? One is he's so clever that he's just trying to blend in and that's how clever he is. Or he's got some mental issues and he's mentally insane. And he doesn't even realize that what he did was wrong. And certainly in this case, that's got a good, good chance of success, right? This guy is absolutely off the deep end. You see somebody like that, you immediately jump to, why would you do something like that? You've got to have something wrong with you. It's got to go right to a mental insanity defense. That's the only benefit. Otherwise, you're thinking, this is a normal guy who planned that kind of murder, planned to just walk casually. He didn't plan this. He didn't plan to get out of trouble. He just didn't know where he was. You heard later, right? He's got voices going on in his head. He's got some mental issues. That's why he was walking around as if he did nothing. Because mentally disturbed.

[Nancy Grace]

He's got 14 arrests and just got out of jail in January and immediately did this. You know what everybody, there he is. There's Kessler. There is the true Kessler coming up with what some would say is a brilliant argument that he had. He walked off because he didn't know he did anything wrong. You use what you got that he didn't plan the incident. Randy Kessler, under the law, isn't it true that intent can be formed in the blink of an eye in a twinkling of a moment? As my old judge, Judge Luther Alverson would say, isn't that true? Premeditation does not require a long, drawn out plan, such as murdering someone by poisoning them over weeks and months. Isn't that true?

[Randy Kessler]

It is true. And you might have missed another point, which is why did he have a knife on him in the first place? That probably helps the intent or planet. But the truth of the matter is, why would he form intent to hurt this person? There's no interaction. You're talking about passion murder, where you see your wife cheating with somebody else, or you see something that disturbs you and throws you into a rage that's.

[Nancy Grace]

Not his wife cheating.

[Randy Kessler]

That's my point. There's nothing that triggered this premeditation. You talked about forming the intent because you see something. There was nothing that happened to make inform the intent.

[Nancy Grace]

It's just you've never had a criminal that did the day just because they felt like it. They an itch, and they scratched it. And we always say why, why, why, why? Ask why. State doesn't have to prove motive. There doesn't have to be a why. All I have to know is who did it, did they have intent and am I in the right jurisdiction? That's what I need to know.

[Randy Kessler]

Right. And the defense will come up with the why. The why is because he's mentally insane. Stop. Hard stop. That's the only explanation that's going to get him any possibility of a defense.

[Nancy Grace]

And very quickly, if that's possible. Randy Kessler, you're used to making long and eloquent arguments to juries and appellate judges, but we just agreed that intent can be formed in literally the blink of an eye. But you were saying he's clearly mentally insane. This is a litmus test. A yes. No. Isn't it true that the rule of insanity. The insanity test is the old MacNaughton rule brought over to the US from Great Britain. And it's one simple. Did the suspect know right from wrong at the time of the incident? I don't care what he says. He heard voices last week or tomorrow. Did he know what he did at the time was wrong? Isn't that the old McNaughton test?

[Randy Kessler]

That's the old McNaughton test, and I think it's. It's very applicable here because when at the time he did that, clearly it's going to be easy to argue he did not know that what he was doing was wrong. He was acting under some impulse, some mental diagnosis, some alternate personality, something made him do that, clearly.

[Nancy Grace]

Personality. Did you just pull that out of your.

[Randy Kessler]

Out of my way law school books? The bottom line is he did this. And did he know right from wrong at the moment he did it? And you can almost argue that anybody doing something like that must not have known what they were doing. Why else would they do it? There's no other reason. It's not somebody he knew. It's not somebody he hated.

[Nancy Grace]

On why? Why does it matter?

[Randy Kessler]

That's what you have.

[Andy Khan]

Moments after allegedly stabbing Irina Brown, captured on video nonchalantly walking the platform of the train. Police with weapons drawn and up surround the suspected killer, taking him to the ground and taking him into custody. On the train, Brown was described as wearing a hoodie. Now he's wearing a black T shirt with the bloody hoodie wrapped around his hands.

[Nancy Grace]

And here he comes, just walking along cavalierly, calmly. Don't look at me. Nothing to see you. Oops. I guess they got my description. Joining me an all star panel to make sense of what we know right now. Straight out to Ron Bateman, former homicide detective, former undercover narc, former sheriff, and author of a crime fiction series, Silent Blue Tears, his new book coming out next week. Question to you, Ron Bateman. When you know, when you see the police closing in, very often defendants do not run. They try to blend in. Like Tyler Robinson did after he allegedly shot Charlie Kirk. He came down off the top of that roof and then he didn't run. He walked with grandpa's long gun and then hit it. See what I mean? That's just an example I'm giving you that everyone is familiar with.

[Ron Bateman]

Yeah. And it really goes to speak to his intent. We talked about intent being formed in a matter of minutes. And you'll see him, if you play the video back, you'll see him take a knife and it's a folding blade that he actually folds the blade out himself. He had to think about that. And then I believe when he was stabbing the victim, I believe it's not a lock blade, it actually closed and cut his finger. And that's why all the blood is dripping out on the floor of the train. But then the further to show his intent, he has the wherewithal. Remember, we're talking about a guy who's now schizophrenic and all that stuff, which is bull crap. He has the wherewithal to try to conceal his identity. He takes off the hoodie, he wraps his hand in the hoodie, he tries to conceal his identity, he tries to blend in and walk among the patrons. Let's not even talk about all the people or the train that didn't do a thing. That's another topic.

[Nancy Grace]

Not a D a m N thing. Not a thing. In fact, some of them, in addition not doing anything to help Irena, they actually started videoing her as she's dying. Okay, I'm glad you brought up what you did, Ron Bateman, about the folding knife. Unlike the fixed blade knife used by Brian Kohberger to butcher four innocent Idaho students, this is a folding blade used in the murder of Irena to Randy Kessler. Uh oh. Where's Kessler? Don't see him. Let's see him. Kessler, go ahead and get your Kleenex. Because many people would argue 1, 2 seconds don't matter, but they do under the law, the time it takes, and you can see it on video, him fidgeting around, digging in his pockets to get the knife. Then he unfolds the knife and positions it. That buys me about five more seconds to form intent. Wah wah. Kessler.

[Randy Kessler]

Yeah, well, I don't know what you're gonna do and I don't know what you want me to do with that. He opened the knife and he did something with it. But did he know what he was doing? Did he know that he was act. Did he think it was him? His argument's gonna be some other personality took over.

[Nancy Grace]

Did he think it was him? Wait, what?

[Randy Kessler]

Yes. Listen to the videos. Listen to the audio.

[Nancy Grace]

Did who think it was who?

[Randy Kessler]

He did not think it was himself. He thought it was somebody else in his body, somebody else making him do this. He was obviously mentally disturbed. He didn't form the content. Something in his brain went wrong and made him do that. That's the mental insanity defense that he's going to have to use. I don't know what else he has.

[Nancy Grace]

In the last hours. Newly obtained 911 audio and video. Now, this is video from the public transport train. There's plenty of video circulating out there because many of the trainers, writers, the patrons, instead of trying to help Irena, started videoing her as she died. Let's see 38 showing Irena getting onto the train and taking her seat, minding her own business. She worked two jobs, new to the US Seeking a better life, according to her family. And God bless her soul, look who is sitting behind her. And he's staring at her right now like a wolf looking at a sheep. She gets on, looks around and takes a seat fortuitously in front of the defendant. Let's move to 39. I want you to see the defendant moving in his. See, this is what we call time to form intent. Fidgeting with the knife. And we're stopping it right there. We don't need to see the next frame. Let's see it again. Time right there. Under the law to form intent. She comes and sits down. He's staring at her, stares at her like a wolf, and then pulls his knife, looks at it, unfolds it and stands up to murder her. Let's move to 40. This video showing a close up of the defendant's hands, that's Arena's hat. Look, if that's not intent, that is intent, what do you have to say to that? Keep on the video, Kessler. Look at that. I'm totally going to slow mo that for the jury.

[Randy Kessler]

So I've maintained all along this is a case about sentencing, right? You can tell me all day long that it's not just about sentencing. You're going to get a conviction, but what made him do that? You say the why doesn't matter. Juries always want to know why. And you know what? If there's a mental insanity defense, the why is going to matter. And that's going to be the only thing he has, if he goes to trial to argue is that he was out of his mind. He did not know what he was doing, he was being controlled, possessed, whatever it is, because you're right. Otherwise, you've got the intent, you've got the. You've got the conviction. If he doesn't use a medal, I.

[Nancy Grace]

Wonder if he was, quote, possessed all the other 14 times, maybe that he committed a crime, some of them violent. This is not age progression, people. This is just a few of his many arrests. Can I see Kessler? Because I don't want him to hide behind some pictures you're putting up. Kessler, did you actually just say maybe he was possessed? You're going to bring demonic spirits in as a defense? I can't wait. Is that what you just said? I heard it. I can play it back. You said maybe he was possessed.

[Randy Kessler]

I'm using a layperson term. You want me to use the psychological term? Schizophrenic? Somebody. He thought that he was possessed. He thought that somebody else was in his body. Some sort of government device was in his body. He thought something else was going on. He is not owning this act. He did not say, I don't know why I did this. He's saying, look, you know, I don't know what happened, but they need to scan me, they need to investigate me. They need to figure this out. Something was going on in his brain, and we don't understand brains yet. Far enough to understand why this happened. But clearly he did not say, I did it and I'm sorry, or I can't figure out why I did it. He doesn't seem to have any recollection. So it's a mental health defense. It's clearly mental health defense.

[Nancy Grace]

I can tell you this is the death knell for the defense when a JD starts talking like an md. I just heard you trying to describe the human brain. Good luck with that. I know my limitations. I am not. Did you hear me talking to Coyne? I know that I don't know, but I love you. Theorizing on his brain function. I want to go to special guest joining us, IndyCon. He is director of victim services and advocacy Crime Stoppers out of Houston. Longtime friend and colleague who first introduced me to murderabilia. People making money off murder. Andy Khan. How Many times have you heard a defense attorney, much like Randy Kessler joining us tonight, state he didn't know what he was doing. Well, you know what, he knew what train stopped to get off, didn't he? He need to take off that bloody shirt and wrap it around his hand. Not just the hurt hand that, you know, he sliced himself, but to change clothes. He got off that train at the very next stop and tried to walk away. Hit it, Andy.

[Andy Khan]

You know, the video speaks volumes. I mean, there's no if, ands, or buts. He knew exactly what he was doing. He tried to cover up. But the real story to me is you had a young lady who fled war torn, war torn Ukraine, only to end up being murdered in the United States. Now we look at what happened with the defendant. This defendant's got a rap sheet yay long. 14 arrests, been in and out of jail, in and out of prisons, in and out of mental hospitals, and so forth. This is a total cataclysmic criminal justice system failure. This is a tragedy, yes, but it was so utterly preventable. And my position again is we continue to allow repeat offenders right back into our community to do what they do best, and that's commit crimes. This is not just a North Carolina, it's a national issue. In Houston, we've documented over 200 plus people that have been murdered by defendants released on what's called a personal recognance bond, which is what this defendant was recently released. That is about as disturbing as it gets. And I'm hoping that this will ultimately open up everybody's eyes, not just in North Carolina, but all over the country. That the criminal justice reform movement has led to more victimization, more murders than any other natural disaster in this country's history.

[Morgan]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Annabe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality. For price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Guarantee. Get up to 60 off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop [e-mail] Authors are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply. Hi, I'm Morgan. I have three kids. I have an IQ of 160. I work with the cops.

[Randy Kessler]

You're a cop?

[Morgan]

No, but they do sign my paychecks.

[Nancy Grace]

Kaitlin Olson returns in High Potential, the number one drama.

[Ron Bateman]

She was abducted. You knew that already, didn't you?

[Morgan]

Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one.

[Nancy Grace]

And one of the best new crime procedurals.

[Ron Bateman]

You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you?

[Nancy Grace]

Yeah. High potential. New Tuesdays, 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu. What kind of man would let this happen to his family?

[Randy Kessler]

Inspired by shocking actual events, I'm working.

[Morgan]

On a story about the Murdochs. Their abuses of power playing out in real time.

[Randy Kessler]

Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark. It's only cheating if you get caught. Hulu original series Murdoch Death in The Family premieres October 15th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers.

[Andy Khan]

Terms apply.

[Morgan]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty.

[Nancy Grace]

When Dr. Sabah and I decided to.

[Morgan]

Do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty, which means each and every product is meaningful.

[Nancy Grace]

It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious.

[Morgan]

You're going to get results. And then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful beauty. Confidence is beautiful. Learn more at meaningfulbeauty.com.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Susan Hendricks Joining us investigative journalists, I want to follow up on what Andy Kahn just said. This guy just got out of jail. Again. Why? Who let him out of jail?

[Ron Bateman]

Exactly.

[Karen Stark]

And it was mentioned, the reform laws, they're not working. 14. When you put up those mugshots, Nancy, and that's not all of them, you think, how could this guy have gotten out? What was he doing there in the first place? The governor signing a law in her name. Arena's law. But he even says, look, this isn't enough. It's a step in the right direction, but it's clearly not enough. Meaning it will take away some of the power from the judges to make that decision in letting someone who has priors out of prison.

[Nancy Grace]

Guys, we know who the judge was. She is about as hard on crime as a limp noodle. Her name is Judge Teresa Stokes. Let's listen.

[Andy Khan]

In September 2022, Brown arrested on assault on a female and injury to property. April 2024, Brown arrested for misusing 911 May 2024 misusing 911 January 2025 misusing 911 January 2025 Judge Teresa Stokes released Brown the same day he was arrested on a written promise to appear. Brown evaluation. Three weeks later he is alleged to have killed Irena.

[Nancy Grace]

If that order was followed, he would.

[Andy Khan]

Have been evaluated weeks before the stabbing. The public defender in his murder charge filed a motion questioning Brown's mental capacity and Wiggins again ordered he be evaluated. Police have not identified any motive or linked the attack to mental illness in the last hours.

[Nancy Grace]

Newly released 911 audio and video. Let's take a look. This video is showing the defendant calmly waiting to exit the train. He knows exactly what he's doing. Making way for people. And look at everybody walking around the blood. Yeah, they didn't help her, but they don't want to get their tennis shoes bloody. And there he goes. He knows exactly what's going on around him. He knows when the train door opens that this is his exit and he's leaving. Arena, by the way, is bleeding out dead right now. To Randy Kessler joining us. This is not only a state case, but a federal case as well. Explain why a special fleet of lawyers have been appointed that are deathless qualified. What does that mean?

[Randy Kessler]

Because you want to make it appeal. Proof, right? Lawyers that are qualified to take on death penalty cases. Then he can't after the fact say, well, I had ineffective assistance of counsel. My lawyers didn't understand how to handle a death penalty case. They're protecting the verdict and the conviction. Straightforward, easy as that.

[Nancy Grace]

The case will get reversed if there is a conviction, if there is a death penalty sentence, if the lawyers are not death qualified. In other words, you have to sit on X number of death penalty cases, either first chair or second chair. So you know what you're doing. It's got to be a fair fight. Now, isn't it true, Susan Hendricks, that he, the suspect has been sent for evaluation, mental evaluation, to see if he is competent to stand trial?

[Karen Stark]

Yes, absolutely. He is and will be evaluated. I was listening to a prison phone call between him and his sister and he doesn't make any sense. I don't know if that's because he is insane or he's acting like he does have a problem, but I think they will of course be brought into court, and he will be evaluated. And I think that that's the way the defense will go. But how can you erase these 14 mug shots in all, and the video. There he is, just like you said, Nancy, planning this out, opening the knife and doing it. He said to his sister in the jailhouse call that he felt that they wanted him to do it. He didn't do it. He was told to do it. We'll see if that works. I doubt it.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, Kessler, there's a big difference in evaluating someone for incompetency and insanity. Explain, in a nutshell, what is incompetency?

[Randy Kessler]

Well, you have to understand the proceedings. It's not fair. You can't help the lawyer defend you if you're incompetent to stand trial, if you don't understand the proceedings. To get off the hook for murder, you have to have been insane at the time that it happened, that the thing happened. Incompetency is more a question of ability to stand trial. Do you understand the proceedings? You need to be able to help in your own defense. And if you're not able to help in your own defense, then you don't have a trial until you are able to assist in your own defense.

[Nancy Grace]

Nutshell, Counselor. Would you agree that competency is being able to assist your lawyers in your defense at your trial competent? You are competent to assist your defense attorneys?

[Randy Kessler]

Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. And insanity is whether you knew right from wrong at the time of the incident, the time of Arena's killing. They're two very different things.

[Andy Khan]

Right.

[Randy Kessler]

Don't like to agree with you, but yes.

[Nancy Grace]

So first, the lawyer is going to try to get enrolled. Incompetent. Why? Delay, delay, delay. That's the first and the last rule in the defense playbook.

[Morgan]

Why?

[Nancy Grace]

People forget about it. Their memories fade. Witnesses actually die. Important witnesses actually die or move. You can't find them. And. And the inflammation surrounding the murder of an innocent young woman can die down. People forget about it. That's why the defense wants a delay. Would you at least agree with that?

[Randy Kessler]

Yes. And it's probably easier to find incompetent at the time of trial than insanity at the time. How do you get inside of his mind at that exact moment? Whereas right now, they can interview him. Now he can have psychologists test him. Now it's easier for a judge to say, I'm going to put off the trial than to say, oh, we're going to let him off the hook for murder because of insanity. So it's an easier thing to argue for the defense Counsel, and you get a second bite at the apple. If you lose that argument, you still can argue insanity at the time of the murder.

[Nancy Grace]

Right? So if at some point, if he is rehabbed and is determined he is competent to stand trial, then when he goes on trial, the defense will be insanity. And there are a host of variations. There's. There's guilty but mentally ill. There's not guilty by reason of insanity. There's guilty but insane. Just a whole variation of what a jury can come back on. Just throw me a few choices, Kessler.

[Randy Kessler]

I mean, you've named them. It really doesn't matter what you call them. And it's state by state. Each state calls them different things. But you're giving the jury options. If there are people on the jury that say there's something wrong with him, I can't find that he is a normal person that just intentionally went after this person and did it. I want to give him some minor little break because he's got mental issues. They'll use one of those other excuses to convict and say he had mental issues. Mental, you know, but you're right. You name three or four of them. They're called a whole bunch of different things depending on which state you're in. But there are other options besides murder one.

[Nancy Grace]

What about an Andy Khan?

[Andy Khan]

You know, as much as you want to blame the offender, and obviously he deserves a lot of blame, what happened to this young lady, I blame our criminal justice system even more. They kept knowingly allowing him to re. Enter society time and time again, only to see him reoffend time and time again. And how on the heck do you justify giving someone a no bond, a cash, no cash bond and say here, you know, appear in court, that's insane. To actually allow someone with his rap sheet just to walk out of court under the promise that you'll reappear again. This is what's driving our system and why the public has just lost faith, because we keep seeing offenders like him that are recycled all over the time, and they end up killing people. This was a tragedy, but it was so utterly preventable. Preventable. And it's a total systematic failure. And I don't. I know you'll agree with me on this, Nancy, but I get sick and tired of naming laws after dead people. And yet now we have a new law named after Irina that hopefully others won't end up with the same fate as she has now become.

[Nancy Grace]

Despite all of this past documented criminal history, when Brown was arrested yet again.

[Karen Stark]

In January of this past year, a Democrat.

[Nancy Grace]

That judge, who will, I will add, was a supporter, a strong supporter of former Vice President Kamala Harris, released this insane criminal once again without requiring him to pay any bail. He simply had to sign a written promise to return for his court hearing. Think about how crazy it is to ask a career criminal, someone who by definition repeatedly breaks the law, to just sign a written promise and come back again another day.

[Karen Stark]

This is madness.

[Nancy Grace]

This monster should have been locked up and arena should still be alive. From Fox, straight out to Karen Stark, forensic psychologist, renowned TV radio trauma expert. Karen, weigh in.

[Karen Stark]

I have to tell you, Nancy, yes, this guy has been diagnosed, I've heard, with schizophrenia. But I see intent. He knew to have that knife. He fled after he committed that crime. And when her sister said to him, why did you do that? Why did you do that to this innocent person? And he said, she was reading my mind. Which tells me that he has a rationalization that he actually, after the fact, was trying to explain what he did, which means that he knows the difference. He understands he did something and he wants to come up with some kind of an explanation. So I see intent. I see somebody who knew exactly what he was doing.

[Nancy Grace]

Ron Bateman joining me, former homicide detective, former undercover narc and author of a series, Silent Blue Tears. You can find [e-mail] Ron, the investigators here, much like yourself, have their work cut out for them. They don't have to prove just what happened, that they've got the right guy. Now the state, including investigators, are going to have to prove he knew what he was doing and that it was wrong. Ron, how do you go about doing that?

[Ron Bateman]

Well, you know, you got to ask the question which is really obvious. If he didn't know what he was doing was wrong, then why did he leave his seat? If he was completely schizophrenic and didn't know what was going on, what he did was right. He would have stayed put. But we know, we've already talked about it, he did all those things. He tried to conceal his identity and try to blend into the crowd and blah, blah, blah, try to cover his hand up and all that. But I got to make one point that the community is crying about that. Maybe you don't hear Nancy, but I do. What the hell is wrong with the media by keep repeatedly showing these this murder over and over again. Thank God your staff didn't do it. Today we saw Charlie Kirk murdered a thousand times. We've seen this poor girl stabbed a thousand times. Are we so desensitized that we have totally thrown away the victim's dignity and respect. That their, her parents probably most likely saw this and didn't learn about it in private like they should have. This is really despicable that the media released this video. Now you can release stills of the suspect so we can find, find them good, no problem. But the Charlotte Transit Department, you know, I don't know if it's a PIA that went out, a Public Information act request, but they've released it and they didn't give it any thought and it was just for a God darn sound bite and that's bullcrap. That is so desensitized. Desensitivity is just, just off the charts.

[Nancy Grace]

Andy Khan, he's right.

[Andy Khan]

We are caring more about defendants rights than we are about victims rights. And we repeatedly see this with crime scene photos being sold online, videos being made of victims that are murdered. And she deserves better. But again, I'm going to close with this. The defendant, fair share of the blame. But this is a total systematic failure. It never should have happened. You cannot continue to continue to recycle offenders over and over again and expect a better outcome. She paid the ultimate price. The only question is how many more are going to pay the price under the guise of criminal justice reform that has taken its toll on all our citizens throughout the country. Enough is enough. This has to end.

[Ron Bateman]

Hey, Nancy.

[Nancy Grace]

Yeah, jump in, please.

[Ron Bateman]

Yeah, what I want to say, you know, we're so. We were so hell bent on showing this video over and over again. Are we going to show a firing squad? Which, by the way, I could clear my schedule for that day. Are we going to show the firing squad killing this guy? No, that's. We're not. Because we just care about this little cool sound bite to get some attention, which is horrible. Horrible for the victims.

[Nancy Grace]

And I assume you're referring to the moment that arena was actually stabbed. Dr. Coyne, question to you. Many people want to believe that Irena's death was instantaneous, that she felt nothing. That one moment she's looking at her phone and the next moment she's looking at angels. That's not what happened, Dr. Coyne. She suffered.

[Dr. Thomas Coyne]

No, I mean, you can argue that maybe she went unconscious, you know, within a minute or just less, but she certainly would have felt that stab wound. And you can see when she looked at her attacker, she certainly would have had that sudden rush of fear and panic before she passed out.

[Nancy Grace]

And to Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist and author. Susan, what next?

[Karen Stark]

We owe Irina something. The United States owes her something. I hope there's real change here. The embassy. US Embassy in Ukraine. Working to get her body back. Back there. Guess what her mom said. No. She loved the United States. That's why she came here. She's buried here. We owe her something. I hope that real change comes out of this.

[Nancy Grace]

If you know or think you know anything about this case, the case is being built by the state and the defense. As we go to air tonight, please dial 704334 1600. Repeat, 704334, 1600. And let me emphasize as we go to air, de Carlos Brown is presumed innocent unless and until the state overcomes that presumption with evidence that proves his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And no, we do not want anyone that was legally insane at the time of the incident to get the death penalty. However, his actions belie that claim. We remember an American hero, Officer Ray Barrantis, Chowchilla PD, CA. Killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife and three children. American hero Officer Ray Barrantis. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

[Morgan]

Hi, I'm Morgan. I have three kids. I have an IQ of 160. I work with the cops.

[Randy Kessler]

You're a cop?

[Morgan]

No, but the I do sign my paychecks.

[Nancy Grace]

Kaitlin Olsen returns in High Potential, the number one drama.

[Ron Bateman]

She was abducted. You knew that already, didn't you?

[Morgan]

Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one.

[Nancy Grace]

And one of the best new crime procedurals.

[Ron Bateman]

You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you?

[Karen Stark]

Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

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[Randy Kessler]

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[Ron Bateman]

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[Andy Khan]

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[Randy Kessler]

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[Morgan]

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[Nancy Grace]

In Kansas City, Kansas, a man allegedly.

[Morgan]

Raped and terrorized black women.

[Nancy Grace]

A detective named Roger Golubski. He told me to keep my mouth closed. If I did say anything, I would come up missing like so many others. But then, right before trial, he was.

[Karen Stark]

Found dead, leaving countless questions behind.

[Morgan]

Listen to Corruption Uncovered from Roc Nation.

[Karen Stark]

And its Philanthropic Injustice Division, Team Rock.

[Nancy Grace]

Wherever you get your podcasts, this is an iHeart podcast.