KILLER DAD CHRIS WATTS: "GENDER REVEAL PARTY MADE ME A KILLER”

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: KILLER DAD CHRIS WATTS: "GENDER REVEAL PARTY MADE ME A KILLER"

Air Date: May 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delves deep into the chilling case of Chris Watts, the infamous Colorado father who murdered his pregnant wife Shanann and daughters Bella and Celeste in 2018. Nancy Grace and her panel dissect the latest theory that the planning and subsequent cancellation of a gender reveal party—intended to celebrate the couple’s long-awaited third child—was the alleged trigger for the murders. Guests include investigative journalist Dave Mack, Watts biographer Sherrilyn Cadle, psychologist Dr. Jerilyn Utter, chief medical examiner Dr. Kendall Crowns, and defense attorney Mark Pepper.

Nancy Grace challenges the emerging narrative that blames Shanann or external events for Watts’ actions, emphasizing personal responsibility amid troubling attempts to shift or minimize blame.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Gender Reveal Party Theory

• Narrative Introduction: The episode opens with the claim that Chris Watts blames the gender reveal party and associated stress as the final push toward his crimes ([03:19]).
• Nancy’s Response: Nancy Grace immediately refutes this notion:

  “That’s no defense. I was going to have a gender reveal party, so my only choice was to annihilate my entire family.” ([03:19])

2. Shanann’s Optimism and Chris’s Coldness

• Shanann’s Excitement: Detailed receipts and texts reveal Shanann's excitement about the pregnancy and party preparation—buying food, decorations, flowers ([07:28]).
• Crumbling Relationship: Texts from Shanann to friends show her heartbreak as Chris grows cold and uninterested in the baby:

  "He rejected sex the night we arrived here. Only thing I can think of... is another girl. Chris told me last night he’s scared to death about this third baby and he’s happy with just Bella and Celeste and doesn’t want another baby." ([07:56])

• Shanann Feels Blindsided: Sherrilyn Cadle underscores how Shanann was “blindsided that something had really changed in her husband” after her return from visiting family.

  “She felt something was wrong... All that while he was literally planning in his head what he could do to get rid of them.” ([15:39])

3. Psychological Analysis of Chris Watts

• Detachment and Double Life: Dr. Jerilyn Utter describes how Watts psychologically detached and compartmentalized, viewing his family as obstacles as he became entrenched in an affair ([10:17]).

  "He became more resentful... and started to compartmentalize. So you start to separate the two worlds." ([10:17])

• Nancy Gently Pushes Back:

  “You make it sound so normal. He compartmentalized. It seems to me like he cheated on his wife and wanted her to get rid of the baby.” ([11:25])

4. The Girlfriend's Role and Infidelity

• Not Blaming the Girlfriend—But: Sherrilyn Cadle shares how the mistress wanted her own future with Watts, even talking about having “his first son.” Cadle notes Watts was “very simple minded” and influenced by the women in his life ([15:39], [17:21]).
• Nancy's Rebuttal:

  “That’s trying to sound like it’s the women in his life’s fault and it’s not. It’s his fault.” ([18:36])

5. Pre-meditation vs. “Snap” Defense

• Party as Motive?: Dave Mack explains the timeline—Shanann spends $860 on party supplies Aug 7th, then cancels the party within 24 hours after Watts expresses he doesn’t want another child. The murders follow days later ([13:46], [20:16]).
• Defense Attorney Contrasts: Mark Pepper explores how “the gender reveal party made me do it” might have supported a voluntary manslaughter (heat of passion) defense:

  “If in his mind at that time that was the issue, then that’s a legitimate defense for him to at least pursue the manslaughter...” ([39:40])

• Nancy Scoffs:

  “That is not a defense... I snapped 50 times a day, but I don’t kill anybody.” ([36:01])

• Sherrilyn Cadle Confirms Pre-meditation:

  “This was not a moment of passion... He had been planning for two weeks how to do this. I have it in his own handwriting.” ([50:16])

6. Brutality of the Murders

• Chief Medical Examiner’s Testimony:
  • Dr. Kendall Crowns describes the methodical, brutal way Watts killed his daughters and wife ([30:12]).
  • Bella’s injuries suggest she fought back after watching her sister be smothered.
  • The girls’ bodies were crammed into oil tanks, causing additional injuries post-mortem due to the small opening ([32:12]).
• Shannan’s Death: Manual strangulation, then wrapped in a sheet and buried in a shallow grave ([32:38]).

7. The Aftermath and Attempted Deflection

• Chris Watts' Lies: After the murders, Watts gave emotional public pleas for his family’s return while blaming Shanann for killing the girls—repeatedly deflecting responsibility ([21:36], [49:12], [49:36]).
• Nancy Responds to His Public Pleas:

  “If you got him back right now, at that point you’d have to dig him up out of the shallow grave... get the two little girls out of those cylindrical oil containers...” ([49:12])

8. Discussion of the Law & Federal Involvement

• Federal Death Penalty?: Nancy presses on why federal prosecutors could not take over the case to pursue the death penalty after Colorado abolished it ([41:36]).
• Political Obstacles: Mark Pepper outlines how politics often interferes with federal intervention ([43:17]).

9. Victim Background and Family’s Struggles

• Lupus Diagnosis: Dr. Kendall Crowns explains Shanann’s fertility struggles due to lupus—a painful reminder of how wanted and loved the baby was ([44:47]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nancy Grace (on the defense):

  “I snapped. That’s the name of a show on Oxygen. I snapped. Snap is not a defense, Pepper.” ([36:01])

• Sherrilyn Cadle (on Watts' planning):

  “He had been planning for two weeks how to do this... This was not a man’s daughter. This was a cold blooded murder.” ([50:16])

• Dr. Jerilyn Utter (psychology of killers):

  “These women do not realize they’re actually talking to somebody who’s a psychopath... he doesn’t have the capability to truly love or be remorseful.” ([54:27])

• Nancy Grace (on public deception):

  "He is not hot. He is not sexy. He's a killer. He killed his wife and his children and his unborn baby." ([54:02])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Show theme & opening charges: [03:19]
• Shanann’s texts reveal marital cracks: [07:28] – [08:54]
• Panel discusses psychological detachment: [10:17] – [11:40]
• The party’s abrupt cancellation & significance: [13:46] – [15:03]
• Affair and mistress’s role in the unraveling: [15:39] – [17:21]
• Exploration and demolition of the ‘snap’ defense: [35:03] – [40:54]
• Medical details: cause of death & post-mortem injuries: [30:12] – [33:59]
• Federal prosecution discussion: [41:36] – [44:16]
• Watts’ cold premeditation & Cadle’s direct quotes: [50:16]
• Analysis of public pleas and deception: [49:12] – [49:53]

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Panel & Guest Highlights

• Nancy Grace: Relentlessly challenges any narratives that shift blame from Chris Watts or minimize the horror of the crime.
• Dave Mack (Crime Stories reporter): Lays out receipts, timeline, and revelations from the investigation.
• Sherrilyn Cadle (author/interviewer): Shares direct insights from hours of personal correspondence with Watts, confirming careful premeditation.
• Dr. Jerilyn Utter (psychologist): Explains Watts’ emotional detachment and the phenomenon of murderers attracting admirers.
• Dr. Kendall Crowns (medical examiner): Details the horrific nature of the crimes and medical aftermath.
• Mark Pepper (defense attorney): Debates legal theory, floating—but not supporting—the “heat of passion” defense, provoking scorn from Nancy.

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Summary Takeaways

• The theory that a gender reveal party “made” Chris Watts kill is thoroughly debunked.
• Evidence points to careful premeditation, not spontaneous rage.
• Watts repeatedly shifted blame to others—Shanann, the daughters, even the mistress and party.
• The episode closes with Nancy Grace’s characteristic outrage at attempts to minimize blame and her call for the victims’ memory to be honored through justice.

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Transcript

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[Nancy Grace]

stories with Nancy Grace. Does a gender reveal party push killer dad Chris Watts to murder his pregnant wife Shanann and his little girls Bella and Celeste? Is that what set him off? That's no defense. I was going to have a gender reveal party, so my only choice was to annihilate my entire family. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[Dr. Jerilyn Utter]

I'm calling because I'm concerned about a friend of mine.

[Mark Pepper]

You have to trust me. I did nothing to them. And to my beautiful wife.

[Dave Mack]

I did nothing to her.

[Nancy Grace]

But she won't answer the door. She won't answer phone calls.

[Dr. Jerilyn Utter]

She won't answer text messages.

[Mark Pepper]

The amount of love I have for my family is exponential and I know it's never gonna die.

[Dr. Jerilyn Utter]

My daddy is a hero.

[Mark Pepper]

I had nothing to do with the disappearance.

[Dr. Jerilyn Utter]

My daddy is a hero. He helps me grow up strong. He helped me.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm snuggle too.

[Dr. Jerilyn Utter]

He reads me books. He tied my shoes.

[Nancy Grace]

If you're a hero, flew and FL my daddy daddy is love you Bella and Celeste dead. Their bodies shoved into these thin cylindrical oil containers out in the middle of Anadarko oil fields where Chris Watts, killer dad worked. Tonight we are learning more about what pushed killer dad Chris Watts over the edge. A gender reveal party this is we also learned that Shanann struggled to get pregnant. She had a rare disease that seemingly precluded her from ever getting pregnant again. And then after a long struggle, she conceives. Then, just after the gender reveal party invites go out, suddenly we find we uncover texts from Shanann Watts to her friend. Let's see the text where she describes how her husband, so called killer dad Watts, no longer wants the baby. I haven't slept most of the week. My eyes burn from crying so much. I cancel the gender reveal. Nikki's going to tell me today the gender of the baby. I need happy news right now. I said to him, how is this a few months? We were so intimate and what I thought in love. When I left. He said he had a lot of Time to think, this baby in my belly deserves his full love. Either way. He came in the room and said, you think it would be a great thing to have another baby? We talked it out a lot beforehand and we agreed to do this. You were so excited and happy. The friend says, I think he'll come to his senses and feel like an ass in a few months. I grabbed his hand during the ultrasound and he didn't grab back. The friend sends a crying emoji. Shanann. I cringed. He rejected sex the night we arrived here. Only thing I can think of, even though I don't think he has it in him, is another girl. Chris told me last night he's scared to death about this third baby and he's happy with just Bella and Celeste and doesn't want to another baby. He only says just he loves the kids. Did he say he loves you? No. He asked me if the kids could go see his parents. I said no, I'm standing my ground. They haven't made contact in four weeks. No show to her birthday party. These texts are heartbreaking. We have also managed to dig up her little party that she had planned. And to Sheryl and Cadle. Joining me, author of a brand new book, Christopher Watts, A Failed Life. She interviewed Watts ad nauseam. I don't know how you did that. You must have held your nose. Still in contact with him. Her other book, the Murders of Christopher Watts and the Many Faces of Christopher Watts. You know, Cheryl, thank you so much for being with us tonight. Sure. I am looking over her receipts and it's breaking my heart. She had the whole party arranged. She went to Whole Foods. She had edible arrangements. You know what those are? That's when they put like fruit on a stick in little shapes. She had already bought the flower arrangements at Longmont Florist. I'm looking at her receipts right now. She went to Party City and bought all the decorations. She bought fruit and cheese and all sorts of food at Costco. It just. I don't know, it's. It just hurts to see how excited she was, Sherilyn. And in her excitement, her excitement about the gender reveal party and she'd already bought everything for it. And then he says he doesn't want the baby. What happened?

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

Well, partially what happened is his girlfriend. He felt like he wanted another life. He was happy when Shannan left. And that's about the time he started talking with his girlfriend Nikki. And by the time they had six weeks to spend together, he didn't want his family anymore. It was. It turned into hold on just a minute.

[Nancy Grace]

Let me understand this. You said when Shannan left, where did Shannan go? Cheryl and Catl.

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

She went to North Carolina to visit her family and his family just to spend some summer time with them, take the girls for a few weeks and spend time with the grandparents. It was very innocent.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, let me understand this too. Dr. Geralyn Utter joining us, clinical psychologist specializing in psychological evaluations within the justice system, author of Mainlining Philly, author of Aftershock, how past events shake up your life today, and producer of Utter nonsense, a documentary. Dr. Jerilyn, thanks for being with us. So she takes the children, Shanann takes the children for a vacation. She's back in a few weeks. And in a few weeks time, he's completely forgotten about the family and wants to be with his lover and wants to get rid of the baby.

[Dr. Jerilyn Utter]

Yeah, I mean, I know it sounds outrageous. You would think most people would just opt for something called divorce or separation. But it's clear that there was what we call like a psychological detachment. So he had been over that six week period fantasizing about this new life with this new woman. And what happens a lot of times, or in this particular case, is he started to look at his family more or less as an obstacle and not as something that he wanted to be a part of anymore. He was completely entrenched in this fantasy life. And as time progressed, he became more resentful of the fact that he had a family. And he started to compartmentalize. So you start to separate the two worlds. And the one world was his previous family, and now this new world is this woman and this relationship. And that's what he wanted. So, you know, as you read the text messages, him refusing to hold her hand, him refusing to give her a hug, it's very clear that he started to literally emotionally and psychologically detach from the relationship because he was focused on being with this other woman.

[Nancy Grace]

Compartmentalize. I don't know, Dr. Jelly Utter. You make it sound so normal. He compartmentalized. It seems to me like he cheated on his wife and wanted her to get rid of the baby. Baby Nico, their first baby boy.

[Dr. Jerilyn Utter]

Absolutely, he did. And. But when I say this, I'm not saying it, I'm not saying it casually, and I don't want to come off as thinking that, you know, psychology explains this. I mean, Chris Watts is clearly a very disturbed individual. I don't want to take away from that what he did is not the norm. But when you analyze his behavior, and I'm sure you Know, Cheryl knows this more than. More than anyone. That's exactly what he did in his mind and his psyche. He separated. He separated his one life that he had that he didn't want anymore and went in this direction and completely emotionally detached from the family, which provided him the opportunity to engage in such a violent act again. Chris Watts, as far as I know and I've studied, was not an outwardly violent individual. This was something that was clearly premeditated because they were an obstacle. They were no longer a family. He wanted to get rid of them. And that's exactly what he started to do emotionally in order to be able to, you know, complete such a heinous act.

[Nancy Grace]

We did it again.

[Dave Mack]

I like that shirt.

[Mark Pepper]

Really?

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

Really.

[Mark Pepper]

That's awesome. So pink means that's just the test.

[Nancy Grace]

I know.

[Mark Pepper]

It just says the pink is gonna be girls. I don't know.

[Nancy Grace]

Just the test.

[Mark Pepper]

That's awesome.

[Nancy Grace]

That sure sounded half hearted. And that's awesome. Okay, straight out to Dave Mack. Dave Mack. Joining me, crime Stories investigative reporter. We are now learning about claims that a gender reveal party pushed killer dad Chris Watts over the edge. Like, is that some type of a defense? I didn't want the gender reveal party. I couldn't take this dress. So my only alternative was to kill my wife and children.

[Crime Stories Investigative Reporter]

You know, Nancy, at this point, everything that comes out of that man's mouth is just ridiculous. But, yeah, that is what is being suggested now is that. Think about it, Nancy. On August 7th, August 7th, Shannon is so excited about the gender reveal party of finding out the gender of the baby that she spends $860 on party supplies. The cake, cookies, all of this stuff. That's a lot of money for a gender reveal party. But, Nancy, that's August 7th. The very next day, she cancels the party. They had 50 people in that were already invited. She disinvited them the very next day. Not even 24 hours after buying all of this stuff, she cancels the gender reveal party. So what took place on August 7th into August 8th? Well, apparently that's where Chris Watts decided, I don't want another baby. I'm good with Celeste and Bella. The shocking truth, Nancy, is that we know what took place after the fact. But all I'm picturing in my head every time we do this is little Bella singing the hero song and what he does to his wife and his girls in real time. August 7th and 8th through the 13th.

[Dr. Jerilyn Utter]

My daddy is a hero. He helps me grow up strong. He helped me.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm not good too.

[Dr. Jerilyn Utter]

He made Me looks He tied my shoes.

[Nancy Grace]

If you're a hero Flew and blue

[Dr. Jerilyn Utter]

My daddy Daddy is love you I

[Nancy Grace]

mean, Cheryl and Kaytel. The embarrassment that Shannan must have suffered when she has to call all our friends and call off the gender reveal.

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

I'm sure she was embarrassed, but honestly, I think Shannan was just totally blindsided that something had really changed in her husband. I mean, when she was away at her parents towards the end of that time, she would try to call Christopher, and she couldn't get a hold of him. She felt something was wrong. By this time, she was four months pregnant, had gotten through a lot of morning sickness, was starting to feel better, was happy to come home and spend time with him. And all that while he was literally planning in his head what he could do to get rid of them. And I wanted to say one thing, not to blame his girlfriend. This is not what I mean. But about a week before Shannan came home, he had his girlfriend to his house, and they were talking about having a family someday. And she told him, I want to have your first son. And I think that had a lot to do with, in his head why he all of a sudden didn't want the son he had coming. If it had been another girl, he might have been different. He also had been told by his family that he didn't need another one. It was too much that he didn't really want. What do you mean?

[Nancy Grace]

He did need another one. It's too much. If he was thinking of having a baby with his mistress, well, then that's a third baby. So that doesn't make sense. Hold on just a moment. You said, I don't want to blame the girlfriend. Let me understand something, Sherrilyn Catl. Didn't the other girlfriend know he was married with two children?

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

She did, absolutely. But she was also being told.

[Nancy Grace]

The problem with blaming her.

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

Well, according to her, which I think that she's pretty naive to not realize, that's probably what every man tells a woman when he's having an affair with her. But according to Christopher, he had told her that they were getting separated and probably divorced. So he also told his girlfriend that he was living in the basement, that when he was home, he would take care of the children, then he would go downstairs to sleep. And that did happen a couple of times, I think, but that's not how things really were. So, you know, it's a. Definitely, to me, it's a mix of her pulling him, because she was. She was pulling him to her. And I don't believe she meant for him to kill his family. But I think she said get rid of Shanann, get rid of the family and. And come with me. I don't think she meant kill them. I think she probably leave them. But he's very simple minded when it comes to things like this. He's been used to doing whatever the women in his life tell him to do. It's like he couldn't think of his own. And I know that sounds like excuses,

[Nancy Grace]

that's trying to sound like it's the women in his life's fault and it's not. It's his fault. You spoke. You've spoken so many hours with so called killer dad Chris Watts. And it's my understanding he explained to you about a big argument they had right before she went on the trip.

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

Yes, they had shinny. Well, it was right when she came home from the trip. I think I have to look back at my letters. But she had suspected that something was going on. And he walked up to the bedroom, they got into an argument and she said, I hope whoever this is, they're worth it. You've got beautiful children. We have another one on the way. And now this. You know what's going on. I hope that they're worth it. And she took a pillow and shoved it at him and said, get out. Get out of the room. And so he went downstairs and got on the phone with his girlfriend. So it's just he had no intentions of staying with Shannon. Why he didn't choose the separation or divorce, I don't know. I don't know why that is. He blames it on a lot of different things. When you talk.

[Nancy Grace]

I want to get back to the new theory is if somehow again is all Shanann, Bella and Celeste's fault that he murdered them. To Dave Mack, the preparations for the gender reveal party. Now theories emerging that that pushed him over the edge. That is not a motive for murder. Tell me about the receipts that you have reviewed.

[Crime Stories Investigative Reporter]

Well, Nancy, the receipts for this gender reveal party show that Shanann Watts was really planning a big day again. Remember we have 50 people coming. A custom cake has been ordered. Cookie arrangements made in specific arrangements of cookies so that it'd be just that much more exciting. You've got the flowers. She ordered very specific flowers to be spread throughout this party area. Decorations, supplies. She purchases food for all of the guests. The party was planned for August 19th at the Watts family home there in Frederick, Colorado. But Nancy, again, remember the dates here. August 7th, Shanann is spending $860 on all of this stuff for this reveal party. She's stoked, man. This is their third child. She doesn't know that this baby is going to be a boy. They don't know that. That's what the gender reveal party is all about. It's on August 7th when, after she's gone through all of this, that Chris Watts says, I don't want another baby. And that's when she starts putting everything together. And within a 24 hour period, it goes from, I'm having a gender reveal party. We're no, no party, no nothing. This is over. That's a huge, huge turnaround.

[Nancy Grace]

Calling because I'm concerned about a friend of mine. I dropped her off at her house at 2 in the morning last night because we were out of town together and we were on the way back

[Dr. Jerilyn Utter]

from the airport and

[Nancy Grace]

she's pregnant and I haven't been able to get a hold of her this morning and I've gone to her house and her car's there and stuff like that, but she won't answer the door, she won't answer phone calls, she won't answer text messages. And I'm just really, really concerned. And she had a doctor's appointment this morning and she didn't go to it. And I'm just, I don't know what to do. I've called him and talked to him and he said that she went on a play date with her other two daughters. But like if she went on a play date, they're both in car seats, why would she not take her car? And then I doubt. Well, now I doubt. Not her. You're a girl. Did they leave after that for a long time? So she started. She started her begins. Okay, so Dave Mack, there he is blaming Shanann for the murders, the disappearances of Bella and Celeste. Did you hear that? She hurt them. Then I freaked out on her. And then the detective says, okay, well then where are your girls? Did they leave? I mean, they're what, 2 and 3 years old. Did they leave after that? And then Watts just shrugs. He, even after murdering her, is blaming her. First it's the gender reveal party's fault. Now she's the one that hurt the children.

[Crime Stories Investigative Reporter]

It is the most ridiculous blame game. But Chris Watts has never taken any kind of responsibility for anything he's done. Nancy. It's always blame the girls, blame Shanann. He even goes so far as later on blaming the girlfriend. So yeah, he's blaming this murder that took place. He's blaming, by claiming that Shannon claiming that the wife he murdered carrying a 15 week old baby in her belly is that she was abusive towards the girls and that's why he had to take her out. It was all her fault. Boggles the mind that he could even say that out loud.

[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

Today, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me just follow through Chris Watts's claims that Shannan is really the guilty party again. So is he claiming that Shanann tried to hurt the girls so he attacked Shanann? Then how did two little girls, Bella and Celeste, ages 2 and 3, end up stuffed down oil cylinders in the oil fields of Anna Darko where he Chris Watts worked? Are they in the tanks?

[Mark Pepper]

Can somebody who doesn't know what they're doing open those?

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. It's easy to open what's in the tanks. It's a mixture of oil and water. There was a sheet found down here. Where's that from? That was what Chanel was wrapped in. What about the crumbs? What were they wrapped in? Just in the containers. None of their blankets or anything. Where did their blankets and toys and stuff go? Probably a blew away in the wind or something right here. Straight out to a veteran and renowned chief medical examiner. Joining us tonight, Dr. Kendall Crowns. Dr. Kendall Crowns is the, as I said, chief medical examiner in Tarrant County. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at tcu. He is a star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the morgue. Dr. Kendall crowns. All of this because of a gender reveal party that pushed him over the edge to a triple murder of his wife, his two little children and the unborn baby boy, Nico. Describe what happened to the little girls.

[Dave Mack]

So each little girl, the older one is Bella, the younger one is Celeste. They appear to have been smothered. Bella, the younger one I think was smothered. Second, she actually has more injuries to her inside of her mouth. She bites her tongue, she bites the sides of her cheek. I think it's because she saw her sister be smothered by her father first, and she knew what was coming, so she struggled more. Usually with smothering cases, when you have an adult and a child, they'll pinch the nose and cover the mouth, or just cover the mouth and nose all at once and then hold the pressure there and the child will suffocate from lack of oxygen within a couple of minutes. And then once they were dead, he then shoved them into the oil tanker. And each child has abrasions on their body from actually being shoved through this small opening in the oil taker and it kind of tearing or rubbing the skin as he's pushing them down. So it probably wasn't easy for him to shove them into the oil tanker as well. And he caused damage to their bodies after he had killed them.

[Nancy Grace]

What do you mean he caused damage to their bodies after he killed them?

[Dave Mack]

Well, when he's pushing them through that small hole, their bodies probably weren't fitting really well. And then as they were pushing through the metal of that opening, it caused scraping and abrasions of the skin. But it happened after death. So they get this kind of tan yellow appearance on them. And that's from the body being dead. Heart's no longer beating and it's pushing up against something as it's being shoved through that hole.

[Nancy Grace]

I find this photo, while accurate, to be a little misleading. Dr. Kendall crowns. If you look at it, it looks much bigger than it is because it was not wide enough to put the girls in there, even vertically. And it tore the skin off of their arms as he shoved them down into it.

[Dave Mack]

I agree with you. Even in this picture, it looks like it's got an 8 inch diameter, so that even the larger child, the older child, was probably harder to fit through. He probably had to manipulate the arms in some way and then push or even stick his foot on top of the child's head as he's pushing the child through that hole. It wasn't going to be an easy process to shove him in there.

[Nancy Grace]

What happened to Shanann? Dr. Kendall crowns.

[Dave Mack]

So the children were smothered, which is basically hands over the nose and mouth until they died. Instead, she was strangled. There's bruising on her neck. There's bruising on the muscles of the neck as well. So he placed pressure on her neck, collapsing the jugular veins, carotid arteries, and then causing her not to get oxygen to her brain. But he manually strangled her with her hands until she died, wrapped her in a sheet, and then buried her in a shallow grave where she laid there for several Days decomposing.

[Nancy Grace]

We are showing you the shallow grave where Shanann Watts was buried in the same oil fields near her two little girls. Dr. Kendall, crowns what is coffin birth?

[Dave Mack]

So coffin birth is what happens when the body is decomposing. Gases form and these gases form in the abdominal, abdominal region, in the soft tissues, and they cause swelling of the skin. Well, in the abdomen, the gases are forming and creating this pressure in the abdomen with the intestines and the stomach. It all starts pushing down on the uterus and that forces the baby in the uterus out through the vaginal canal and basically makes them give birth after death. And it's just based the the pressures from the decomposition gases causing the fetus to be expelled out of the uterus.

[Nancy Grace]

I just, just don't get it. I don't get how now even in death, Chris Watts is somehow blaming Shanann Watts and a gender reveal party. Joining us now, a veteran defense attorney who shot to fame in his coverage of the Alex Murdaugh double murder trial. It's Mark Pepper joining us out of South Carolina. He is the founder of the Pepper law firm. Mark, I don't think this would ever work in a court of law. I frankly don't understand why Chris Watts did not get the death penalty because it's triple murder. Plus, if you count the unborn baby, which in a lot of jurisdictions you do, that's four dead people. What were they just not valuable enough to seek the death penalty. But that said, the gender reveal party made me do it. Mark Pepper, I mean, even you, even you might have a hard time selling that to a jury with a straight face.

[Mark Pepper]

I tend to agree. That would be a tough one. When we're talking about motive in these types of instances, you know, the prosecution is looking for the why. And everything that we've read, you know, is pointing towards. And really what he wrote in his own book. Right. Is pointing towards this gender reveal party. Now, if true, well, that would be more akin to some type of manslaughter charge where in the heat of passion, you got upset that there was going to be this party. You did, you didn't want to host, didn't want to have. And so you kind of snapped. Well, they didn't go down that manslaughter route.

[Nancy Grace]

Wait a minute. Somebody correct me if I just misheard. Maybe my earpiece isn't working. Because I'm pretty sure I heard Mark Pepper, who is a veteran defense lawyer, say, well, there's his defense, voluntary manslaughter. He didn't want to have the Party. He didn't want to have a party.

[Mark Pepper]

That should have been his defense.

[Nancy Grace]

That is not a defense. Mark Pepper, you've won a lot of cases, and I'm pretty sure that in Your jurisdiction, South Carolina, snap is not a defense. I snapped. I snap 50 times a day, but I don't kill anybody. Snap. That's the name of a show on oxygen. I snapped. Snap is not a defense, Pepper.

[Mark Pepper]

Well, but, Nancy, snap is an element of manslaughter in the heat of passion. You didn't want to go this party. You snapped, and so you went out and committed these heinous crimes. That is manslaughter that should have been convicted of.

[Nancy Grace]

Go for a drive, go to. Go to Wild Wings and watch TV and have some wings. Whatever you want. But do you have to kill Your wife? Your two little girls, ages 2 and 3, and the unborn baby boy? Now he's talking to his mistress about she wants to have his first boy. You know, where she can stick that, and it's where the sun don't shine. I want to have your first baby boy knowing he's still married. But she's not my problem. He's my problem. Mark Pepper, now listen, you know you have to get renewed every year right by the South Carolina bar. Now, what are they going to say when they hear you claim, I didn't want to go to a party? Is the defense in triple murder? I didn't want to go to the party, so I had to kill everybody throwing it.

[Mark Pepper]

That is 100. That is what we.

[Nancy Grace]

We.

[Mark Pepper]

Well, that's manslaughter, Nancy. If I was recommending anything to my client, I would say we're not pleading guilty to murder. This is a. A quintessential manslaughter case where there could be a number of different instances, but obviously this party caused some type of heat of passion to come over him, and he absolutely snapped. That is the definition of manslaughter. If I was representing him in Colorado, that would have been our defense. We would have pled guilty to manslaughter all day long. But I never would have advised him to plead guilty to murder, because what motive was there? What, what motive could there possibly have been to do this to your own children? It's a. It's akin to a lot of the cases we see around here where it's not the job of the defense to explain away their actions. It the burdens on the state. And if you have a valid reason where you just lose it. That is the quintessential defense of manslaughter and that should be. Should have been the deal.

[Nancy Grace]

What. What. What did you just say? A valid reason to, quote, lose it. Which is also not. And another thing, Mark Pepper, could you please stop saying the word snap? Because it's making my ears bleed. They're bleeding because you know and I know I snapped. Is not a defense. You just also said. And they always use this example in law school, and I wish they would quit, and now I'm perpetuating it by using it myself. Voluntary manslaughter comes with heat of passion, anger that's uncontrollable, such as, here's the example. A man comes home from work and finds his wife with another man in bed. They always use that. The wife's always the bad person. That said. So he shoots them both dead. And a jury's supposed to believe, well, she had it coming. He was so angry, he couldn't control himself. You're equating your wife, planning a gender reveal party and going to Costco and buying cheese trays and fruit snacks. That's. That is the legitimate, grounded reason that he, quote, lost it because his wife went to Costco. Seriously, are you really saying that you're to decide that?

[Mark Pepper]

You know, Nancy, the. The. The. The reason for the heat of passion, the reason for losing all control. It doesn't have to be a legitimate one. That is up for the jury to decide. My point is that, be it, you come home in the law school example and your wife's cheating on you, and in the heat of passion, you. You take an act that. That's just the same under the eyes of the law as someone planning a party that you do not want to attend that you did not approve. If he. If in his mind at that time that was the issue, then that's a legitimate defense for him to at least pursue the manslaughter, Lester included offense, which is what I would have recommended. Now, that being said, when you're looking at three, four, I guess it was four death penalties, all right, well, then maybe you start changing courses and you try to remove that by pleading guilty to murder. But at the end of the day, the valid defense, the legitimate reason, could have been a manslaughter charge. Under the lesser included offense. You go to trial on the murders, the jury is given the murder to consider, but they're also given the lesser included offense of manslaughter. An act in the heat of passion that essentially drove you to commit these crimes that should have been, and very could easily could have been his defense.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, he's actually saying this apparently with a straight face. And it's kind of like if Mark Pepper says it over and over and over enough that we're going to believe it. Okay. Because I'm looking around here in the studio and everybody's starting to actually nod their heads yes. I don't know what happened to you people. But that said, let me throw another wrench at you, Mark. As in the Sean Puffy Combs case where the Fed said basically to the states, you failed and they take over the case of Sean Puffy Combs. We also see that happening, happening in the Luigi Mangione case where the Feds are conducting a dual prosecution at the same time as the state. In this case, is there any way the Feds can intervene and seek the death penalty on Chris Watts? Because Colorado, we're talking about the death penalty. Colorado doesn't have the death penalty. You can basically kill as many people as you want to there. And you're never going to get the death penalty unless the Feds intervene. What does it take for the Feds to intervene? Oh, I thought of another one. They also intervened on Jared. Remember Jared, the subway pitch guy? They intervened on that as well because he crossed state lines with the purpose of illegal sex with minors. So that's just three off the top of my head. There are many, many more. Why can't they intervene in this? Mark Pepper?

[Mark Pepper]

Yeah, they can, Nancy. And another one is the Michael Slager case involving Walter Scott. The Feds came and took that charge over here in South Carolina. So there's. You're right, there's many more examples. The answer is with a stroke of a pen, they could come and take it over. There's nothing preventing them from doing it and seeking the death penalty at the federal level. But the reality of it is that it's. There's a lot more politics involved than simply the stroke of a pen, especially in a midterm year such as this. It is possible that the federal government dog could come in and say double

[Nancy Grace]

jeopardy does not mean the Feds won't intervene because you said that it's at midterm. Are you throwing this into the political pot, the cesspool of politics?

[Mark Pepper]

Absolutely. Absolutely. We see it all the time. We see all the time where objective decisions are overridden by political vendettas. Certain things, such as who's in charge at the DOJ under the. Under the current presidency, such as who's running the. The AG's office or the United States Attorney's office. In Colorado, politics play a part in these things. They shouldn't, but the reality is they do it could the DOJ could come in and say, stop what you're doing. Double jeopardy doesn't apply here because under the Pettit waiver, we're going to go to the gha. We're going to make sure that this guy gets what he deserves. And the feds at the doj, we believe he deserves death penalty. There's nothing preventing them from doing it. I'm just simply making the point that sometimes it's not as easy as the objective decision to take pen to paper and seek it. There are lots of other reasons, mostly political reasons, that we don't see that done as often as probably it should be.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, another thing Mark Pepper is that this was no big surprise to Chris Watts because his wife was fighting lupus and very, very difficult for her to conceive. Hold on. Mark Pepper from the Pepper Law Firm in South Carolina to Dr. Kendall Crowns is joining us. Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County Dr. Kendall Crowns, what is it about lupus that makes it so difficult for women to conceive?

[Dave Mack]

So lupus is an autoimmune disorder in which your immune system attacks your own body tissues, your muscles, your joints and even your uterine lining. So when it is attacking the uterine lining, it makes it a hostile environment for the implantation of the fertilized eggs. So women with lupus often struggle with fertility issues because their immune system is basically preventing them from getting pregnant.

[Nancy Grace]

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[Dave Mack]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Mark Pepper]

Mm, yeah, but I'm not itching to

[Nancy Grace]

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[Mark Pepper]

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[Dave Mack]

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[Nancy Grace]

Service opens doors, and at American Military University, it can open doors for the whole family. If you have a loved one who served in the military, you may qualify for reduced tuition. AMU offers flexible online programs designed to fit your schedule so you can keep moving forward wherever life takes you. Learn [e-mail] Military open doors to the future for you and your family with the help of American Military University. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace,

[Mark Pepper]

Shannan, Bella, Celeste, if you're out there, just come back. Like, if somebody has her, just please bring her back. I need to see everybody. I need to see everybody again. This house is not complete with without anybody here. Please bring it back.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, well, if you got him back right now, at that point you'd have to dig him up out of the shallow grave where Shannan had coffin birth to your son Nico after you put her there. And you'd have to get the two little girls those cylindrical oil containers where you cram them down, rubbing the skin off of their arms. Can I say that one more time from our friends at Denver 7?

[Mark Pepper]

Shanann, Bella, Celeste, if you're out there, just come back. Like, if somebody has her, just please bring her back. I need to see everybody. I need to see everybody again. This house is not complete without anybody here. Please bring her back.

[Nancy Grace]

Sherrilyn Cadle is with us tonight. Who has spent hours and hours interviewing Chris Watts. When I look at him, he literally makes me sick. Did you hear that? If you're out there, if you're out there, just come back. Like if somebody has her, just please bring her back. I need to see everybody.

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

Very sickening.

[Nancy Grace]

Is this man.

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

Yes. I want to say something if I could. This was not a moment of passion that he killed. Shannan. I have letters. I would like for you some time to see my letters, Nancy, from him. I have letters where he tells me what he did. And he says when he put the girls to bed that night, he knew that was the last time he would be kissing his babies good night. Because he was going to kill them. He had been planning for two weeks how to do this. He told me that he took them to the. A birthday party the day before. And he laid at the pool while the girls were playing in this. This little pool. He laid there daydreaming in his head what he was going to do to his wife and children. This was not a moment of passion at all. He knew what he was doing. He planned what he was doing. I have it in his own handwriting. This was not a man's daughter. This was a cold blooded murder.

[Nancy Grace]

Cheryl and Catal. Hold on just a moment. I've got to go to Mark Pepper on that. Out of South Carolina. Mark, did you hear that? I would bring on Sherrilyn Catl, state's witness. Maybe. Maybe number three, because this gender reveal party pushed me over the edge. Is total bs. Technical legal term. Because he writes in his own handwriting that he planned it. Lying by the pool, getting a tan.

[Mark Pepper]

Well, and I appreciate that with all due respect to your guest, you know, that's evidence that may or may not have been entered into the trial, this case. That's what the rules of evidence allow. Now, I understand statements against interest typically are allowed in a case against the defendant. But again, the foundation would have been laid. We simply don't know whether that evidence would have been admissible in a murder trial candidly.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, dear Lord in heaven. Are you going to try to say something? Mark Pepper, like, that's not his handwriting. Right. Sherilyn Cato, just such a liar, isn't she? She's gone to that jail and listen to this guy whine for hundreds of hours. I don't know how she stood it. You know, I think I do know how she stood it. Mark Pepper, have you ever hung out the laundry before? You had a dryer. We did. Hanging out in the backyard with those clips. You know, the Clothesline just sitting right here. She'd have to hold her nose to listen to this guy. You know what? I'll ask her. Sherrilyn, did you hear that? Mark Pepper thinks your letters from Chris Watts should be attacked on authenticity. Like what? You hid under the blanket on your bed with a flashlight and wrote the letter so nobody would find out?

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

Well, actually, they have been validated as being real. I have the envelopes that they came in, the dates they were mailed. The dates correspond with the letters. And his handwriting is very recognizable because he writes every girl and female all over the country who's got little love letters from him, said that they're not real. Is just so far from. There's no way they would hold up in court. My letters are definitely okay.

[Nancy Grace]

You just made. You just gave me a whole nother wave of nausea. Sherilyn Cato. Dr. Geraldine Utter. Did you hear what she said? Love letters from women all over the country.

[Dr. Jerilyn Utter]

Yeah, this isn't a new concept. We've seen this with serial killers like Ted Bundy in the past, where even Luigi Mangioni, like, people become kind of enamored. And Wade Wilson's another one. Women become enamored with, you know, the bad boy type or whatever you want to classify it or call it, and that's strictly fantasy world. Clearly, these women don't understand or appreciate.

[Nancy Grace]

Just hold on. Dr. Geraldine, I'd like to ask the control room in New York to please search their conscience. Why are you showing what you obviously think is a hottie shot? Take that down right now. He is not hot. He is not sexy. He's a killer. He killed his wife and his children and his unborn baby. Okay, Dr. Jerilyn, please go ahead.

[Dr. Jerilyn Utter]

So what I was basically just trying to say, Nancy, is that it's a commonality. We see this with other serial killers. You have Ted Bundy, you have Wade Wilson, you have this gentleman, Chris Watts. People become enamored with, quote, unquote, the bad boy. These folks or these women do not realize that they're actually talking to somebody with it. With who's a psychopath, more or less. And, you know, they're exchanging their entertainment. It's a form of entertainment. They haven't been afforded the opportunity to see who these people really are. Another thing that I just wanted to mention, Nancy, as I'm. As I'm listening to all this, and a crime of passion, and this was very clearly premeditated and planned. Let's not kind of, you know, dismiss that in any type of way. He planned on doing this, and then Sherrilyn, you know, obviously confirmed that. But what I want to call out is it's not like he snapped all of a sudden and then decided to do this. This is a personality type of presentation that's been with him for. For a very long time, since he was, you know, a younger person or whatever, meaning he. He doesn't have the capability to truly love love, and he doesn't have the capability to be remorseful. And when you have a personality organization that way, when you can't empathize, when you can't, you know, be sympathized, and when you can't truly love, it makes it very easy to do what he did. And that's the part that we really need to pay attention to. This is someone who, way before these murders, and, you know, he was never violent before, but that doesn't discredit the fact that this is somebody who was in capable of true emotional connection to another human being, anyone. His daughters, his son, his wife. So that's something I think we really have to pay attention to, is, yes, it happened probably when he was in his 30s, but this is who he has been throughout his life.

[Nancy Grace]

The gender reveal party made me do it. And what's so crazy is to hear Mark Pepper talk that's perfectly believable. Well, it's not believable to me. And tonight I beg the feds to intervene in this case on behalf of Shanann, Watts, Bella, Celeste, and Nico. Tonight, we remember an American hero officer Dylan Owen. Citronell PD, Alabama, just 26, killed in the line of duty after two years on the force, Leaving behind grieving parents Christie and Kenny. American hero officer Dylan Owen, Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. Service opens doors, and at American military University, it can open doors for the whole family. If you have a loved one who served in the military, you may qualify for reduced tuition. AMU offers flexible online programs designed to fit your schedule so you can keep moving forward wherever life takes you. Learn [e-mail] Military open doors to the future for you and your family. With the help of American military University,

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[Nancy Grace]

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