KILLER DAD CHRIS WATTS 'OLD-TIME RELIGION' LURES WOMEN BEHIND BARS

Summary

Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Episode: Killer Dad Chris Watts ‘Old-Time Religion’ Lures Women Behind Bars
Podcast: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
Date: March 27, 2026
Main Theme:
Nancy Grace and her panel investigate the disturbing case of Chris Watts—the Colorado dad convicted of murdering his pregnant wife Shanann and two young daughters—and explore his manipulative behavior in prison, particularly how he uses "old-time religion" to lure female admirers. The show discusses the psychology behind Watts's actions, his post-conviction life, his appeal to certain women, and the broader phenomenon of women drawn to high-profile killers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Review of the Watts Murders

• Scene Recap:

  • Nancy Grace sets the stage with a brutal overview of Chris Watts's crimes: murdering his wife Shanann, burying her face-down to "punish her," and disposing of his daughters' bodies in oil tanks.

  • The disturbing post-mortem birth ("coffin birth") of Nico, Watt's unborn son (06:25), is explained in detail.

    “Face down, so she couldn’t gaze in death at her children... I think nothing could hurt me worse than to be forever away from my own children…” — Nancy Grace (03:22)

• Clinical Explanation:

  • Dr. Kendall Crowns elucidates "coffin birth":

    “When the body decomposes, gases are formed, and in pregnant women, these can force the fetus out of the vaginal canal. That’s basically what it is.” (06:48)

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2. Chris Watts’s Disturbing Demeanor and Psychology

• Emotional Detachment:
  Video evidence shows Watts eating pizza while police show photos of his victims (08:04). Nancy and the panel express shock at his lack of grief or remorse.

  “He’s chowing down on a pepperoni pizza... skin on [his daughter's] arms came off, and he is chowing down.” — Nancy Grace (08:28)

  • Dr. Judy Ho:

    “When somebody may have sociopathic tendencies... their brains are just not stimulated by things normal people are. There’s something most likely wrong with the wiring of his brain.” (09:59)

• Expert Explanations:

  • Lack of appetite is common during grief due to emotional and physiological response (11:22).

  • Watts, by contrast, exhibits none of these cues. His comfort after the killings points to possible sociopathy.

    “He’s so easily able to settle back into that rest and relaxation, spa-like system… he may very well be a sociopath.” — Dr. Judy Ho (12:45)

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3. Watts’s “Old-Time Religion” Prison Persona

• Newfound ‘Faith’:

  • A fellow inmate, Dylan Tallman, describes Watts’s jailhouse religious conversion, reportedly triggered by seeing Nancy Grace address him on TV (21:57).

  • Watts now writes women, peppering letters with Bible verses, comparing his lover to Jezebel and Bathsheba (23:39), and himself to Paul the Apostle.

    “Her flattering speech was like drops of honey that pierced my heart and soul...” — Chris Watts, quoted by Dr. Kendall Crowns (24:01)

• Panel Skepticism:

  • Nancy and Dr. Judy Ho see these conversions as manipulative tools:

    “Is this just another ploy? Is this just another manipulation? He can be a very convincing storyteller… Not that convinced.” — Dr. Judy Ho (22:50)

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4. Manipulating and Luring Women from Prison

• Female Admirers & Penpals:

  • Sherrilyn Cadle (author, Watts’s correspondent) shares how Watts responds to and manipulates women who write him, often breaking hearts and causing real-life chaos for his admirers (32:04).

  • These women sometimes leave their husbands for him and willingly send money, swayed by his religious posturing and charisma.

    “They want to marry him, they want to support him, talk… on the phone. He knows all the right things to say.” — Sherrilyn Cadle (32:04)

• Cycle of Seduction:

  • Watts writes lengthy letters, often simultaneously courting multiple women and using personalized religious language to appeal to each.

    “Many of them feel like he’s godly… that he comforts them… always comparing himself to someone in the Bible, often Paul.” — Sherrilyn Cadle (32:04)

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5. The Broader Phenomenon: Women Who Love Killers

• Psychological Factors:

  • Dr. Judy Ho explains women’s attraction to men like Watts often stems from wanting to feel special by "changing" the misunderstood, histories of trauma, or seeking meaning and purpose.

    “Wanting to feel special... sometimes these are individuals with their own trauma... they're looking to this guy to help them be their moral compass.” — Dr. Judy Ho (34:53)

• Pattern Recognition:

  • Nancy and Randolph Rice draw parallels to other infamous cases (Scott Peterson, Menendez brothers, Joran van der Sloot), observing similar patterns of women supporting and sometimes marrying criminals.

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6. Responsibility and Public Reaction

• Blaming Others:

  • Watts repeatedly blames his wife Shanann and mistress Nicole Kessinger for his own crimes, now couching it in biblical language.

    “He’s blaming murdering his wife and two… on, who?... his lover Nicole Kessinger.” — Nancy Grace (24:23)

  • Steve Helling emphasizes Watts’s continual avoidance of accountability:

    “He doesn’t say he didn’t do anything wrong... But what he does say is that Nicole Kessinger kind of tempted him. It’s always the woman’s fault.” — Steve Helling (43:13)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (With Timestamps)

• On Watts’s cruelty:

  “He buried her face down so she could not gaze in death at her children.” — Nancy Grace (03:22)

• Explaining coffin birth:

  “The gases formed from decomposition... force the fetus out... causing basically a birth of the fetus.” — Dr. Kendall Crowns (05:52)

• On sociopathy:

  “Most likely wrong with the wiring of his brain... That also leads him to be able to do these things—and then to eat, apparently, a delicious meal afterwards as if nothing happened.” — Dr. Judy Ho (09:59)

• On religious manipulation:

  “He’s comparing himself to Paul... and women fall for that.” — Nancy Grace (34:35)

• On what draws women in:

  “They just fall for him... They feel like he’s godly and he’s meeting their needs spiritually and that he comforts them and he knows all the right things to say.” — Sherrilyn Cadle (32:04)

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Important Segments (Timestamps)

• [01:26] – Sherrilyn Cadle on Watts’s manipulation from behind bars
• [03:22] – Detailed description of the victim burial, “face down” punishment
• [05:52] – Dr. Kendall Crowns explains "coffin birth"
• [07:14] – Audio of Watts eating pizza during police interview; panel reaction
• [09:59] – Dr. Judy Ho on sociopathic tendencies
• [18:57] – Sherrilyn Cadle discusses Watts’s emotional detachment, use of manipulation
• [21:57] – Steve Helling describes Watts’s supposed religious “conversion”
• [24:01] – Reading of Watts’s Bible-themed letters blaming women for his crimes
• [32:04] – Sherrilyn Cadle on women writing to and being manipulated by Watts
• [34:53] – Dr. Judy Ho explains psychological vulnerabilities of “killer groupies”
• [38:00] – Nancy plays Watts’s initial manipulative public statements
• [43:13] – Steve Helling on Watts blaming women and seeking new penpals

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Final Thoughts & Tone

• The episode maintains a direct, interrogative, and emotionally charged tone—characteristic of Nancy Grace.
• Frequent interruptions, passionate exhortations to (mostly female) listeners to resist romanticizing killers like Watts.
• The panel’s language is often blunt (“monster,” “sociopath”), reflective of both disgust and exasperation.
• The episode underscores the recurring problem of manipulative murderers seducing admirers from behind bars—and challenges listeners not to be taken in by this dangerous form of charisma.

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For additional details and analysis, see:

• “The Murders of Christopher Watts and the Many Faces of Christopher Watts: A Five Year Update” by Sherrilyn Cadle
• Related expert commentary by Dr. Judy Ho (drjudyho.com)

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This summary omits all advertisements and non-content segments, focusing solely on the core discussion.

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Killer dad Chris Watts using old time religion to lure women while he is behind bars. What? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

All of these women that are writing to him and sending him love letters and sending him money through the mail that has overloaded his commissary. That's a monster. That's a real monster.

[Nancy Grace]

He knew exactly what he was doing.

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

I said it seems to me like there was a monster inside of you and it was boiling and boiling and it had to come out and that's why you killed Shanann.

[Nancy Grace]

Did you see just right there where a sheet was being held up? I'd like to look at that again because I think that's something that all you ladies out there that are writing and corresponding with killer dad Chris Watts. That is the sheet in which Shannon Watts was bundled up and those poor le had to unfold it. Just quick refresher to Sidney Sumner joining me, crime Stories investigative reporter. Could you tell me where again his wife Shanann Watts was found buried in a shallow grave and after coffin birth of her first boy, Nico. Where was this sheet? Sydney Sumner?

[Sidney Sumner]

Well, Bella and Celeste were inside of an oil tank and about 50ft away, Shanann Watts was buried face down wrapped in this sheet with Nico between her legs, birthing him post mortem in a shallow grave and Chris Watts said he buried her face down and away from the girls to punish her.

[Nancy Grace]

Face down and away from their two little girls to punish her. To Dr. Judy Ho joining us, and I haven't even gotten into his old time religion, luring women behind bars. Boy, do we need a shrink. Tonight, Dr. Judy Ho is joining me, clinical for forensic neuropsychologist. She's the author of the New Rules of Attachment. She's the author of Stop Self Sabotage. And you can find her at Dr. Judy ho.com Judy ho ho.com Dr. Judy that's a new fact that many people have just learned that when after he murdered his wife, Shanann Watts, and their two little girls, Bella and Celeste, he, Chris Watts, buried her, Shanann Watts, face down so she couldn't look to where her children were as punishment. I think nothing could hurt me worse than to be forever away from my two children, the twins. That is effed up. Okay, that's a Latin term. You rarely hear it in court, but I think you know what it means without a full definition. He buried her face down so she could not gaze in death at her children.

[Dr. Judy Ho]

NANCY it's incredible. It's like the last thing that he just had to do to make everything so much worse, as if it already isn't terrible enough. And that just shows you the mindset that he has. He already murdered her and he decided that she was not going to even be able to have any kind of interaction, any kind of connection with her children. It's like he wanted her to suffer even in death. I mean, you have to think about the mindset of somebody who would plot that as they were doing it and saying, you know what, I don't even want to give her the dignity of facing up. I want to put her face down. So not only is she continuing to suffocate in death, she's not even going to be able to look at her family.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us, Dr. Kendall crowns renowned Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth, never a lack of business there. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at tcu and he is the star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the morgue. Dr. Kendall crowns, thank you for being with us. What is coffin birth?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Coffin birth is because when the individual is decomposing and they're pregnant, the gases formed from decomposition swell up the abdomen and start creating pressure. Often this causes bodily fluids to purge out of the mouth and nose, out of the anus and vagina. But since she's pregnant as well, it Forced the pressure from these gases, forming forces down on the uterus and then expels the fetus out of the vaginal canal, causing basically a birth of the fetus.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, I am digesting what you said, and I want to say it in regular people talk. When the body decomposes, gases are created. That's why the stomach or the body blows up and the body begins to smell. And those gases force baby Nico through the vaginal canal and she gives birth posthumously after death. Is that correct?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

That is correct. That's basically what it is

[Nancy Grace]

that said. Steve Helling joining us, investigative reporter, Daily Mail, who got the exclusive on this story. I don't know why you keep saying it's a story, because these are real people. Steve Helling, my longtime friend and cohort. Steve, I want you to watch this.

[Chris Watts (interview clips)]

Are you hungry at all? Sip of pizza? I still gotta eat any of the food it. No. Explain. What kind of picture do you like? It doesn't matter, really. Okay. Just whatever. Thank you, though. Do you like that kind?

[Nancy Grace]

Steve Helling, Daily Mail. He's chowing down. He's woofing down pizza while the pictures of Bella and Celeste are right in front of him. And his wife, who he murdered, just had coughing birth. He's chowing down. Did you see that?

[Steve Helling]

I did.

[Nancy Grace]

They should have gotten him a double.

[Steve Helling]

Yeah, I mean, I've lost my appetite right now. And this isn't my wife and my children, so I can't believe that he's sitting there eating a pizza after all that had happened. But, you know, we're starting to see all this stuff that he does. He doesn't operate like you and I do. He operates on this sociopathic level.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, you're throwing around a medical term. You said he's operating on a what level? Steve Helling.

[Steve Helling]

I just said sociopathic. And you know what? I kind of stand by that one. You know, I'm not.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm not saying you're wrong. I. I'm just very impressed. Sociopathic level. Okay. Dr. Judy Ho. I recall and I'm projecting, which is dangerous to do when you're analyzing a case, but I recall after my fiance murdered, I lost down to 89 pounds. I couldn't eat, I couldn't drink. I remember the first thing I consumed, it was orange juice out of my mom and dad's fridge. And suddenly I could eat again. Do you see him? Do you see that? I don't think at that point, correct me if I'm wrong, Sidney Sumner and Steve Helling. I don't think the bodies had even been found yet. The little girls, Bella and Celeste, I think, ages 1 and 3, the skin on their arms. Look at her little arms. Dr. Judy Ho ripped off when he pushed them down a cylindrical oil container that was only about 8 to 11 inches wide. He shoved. There you go. He shoved the girls bodies down that and the skin on their arms came off. And he is chowing down on a pepperoni pizza with sausage on top. What?

[Dr. Judy Ho]

I don't get it, Nancy. This isn't a clinical term, but he's obviously a monster. But going back to clinical terms, when somebody may have sociopathic tendencies, there are genetic loads for that. Meaning that sometimes their brains are just not stimulated by the things that normal people would be stimulated by. So in this case, murdering his entire family. And then it's like his brain doesn't even light up with disgust, with fear, with, you know, feelings of being disgusted with himself after what he's done, instead of it's going towards his hunger cues and he's saying, yummy, I want to have my meal right now and I'm going to enjoy this meal. There's something most likely wrong with the wiring of his brain and how he even perceives experiences on top of everything else that he did. But that also leads him to be able to do these things and then to eat apparently a delicious meal afterwards as if nothing happened.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Kendall, Crowns jumping off what Dr. Judy Ho just told us. Dr. Crowns. Why is it that great grief or anxiety makes a human not want to eat when they're upset, they can't eat, or they feel nauseous?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

I think it's the emotions that well up and it causes feelings in your stomach and in your brain. It just causes the drive to eat to be depressed or suppressed by that. Most people that.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, Dr. Kim, I could have said that. And I'm just a trial lawyer. When you're upset, you don't want to eat. That's basically what you said. But there's got to be something metabolic, something physical that makes you not want to eat. And I'm getting at. He just shoved his daughters down those, those cylindrical containers. He buried his wife face down to give birth post mortem. His son, baby Nico, is lying in the grave with her mother right there and he's chowing down. I'm trying to find an answer.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Well, I don't have a good one for you, Nancy. I can't explain why he's able to eat after he murdered his family in that manner. So I'm at a loss.

[Nancy Grace]

You know what Dr. KendallKrans. Let me see him. This is a first. A medical doctor telling me I don't know the answer. I'm really impressed. I'd rather you tell me that than to make something up or just bluff your way through it. So maybe if it's not physical, which you would know about if it was physical. What about it? Dr. Judy Ho? Why does that work? Because he's obviously not upset at all.

[Dr. Judy Ho]

Well, Nancy, when we are in our eat and digest mode, which is when we experience hunger cues and when we want to have, you know, food, when we, when we have an appetite, it's because our. Our. Our bodies are not in fight or flight, right? Our bodies are not being provoked. It's not feeling threatened. It's feeling relaxed. It's feeling like it wants to rest. And clearly this is what this man is doing. After the heinous crimes, he's consumed. He's so easily able to settle back in to that rest and relaxation phase. This is why when people are stressed out, when trauma happens, they can't sleep. It's because of the fight or flight system kicking in. Both systems can't be active at once. And yet his rest and relaxation spa system is on, which is what allows him to be able to eat in this state. And that is why it's so disgusting and egregious and why he may very well be a sociopath. These are the things that we look for is, does somebody have essentially zero emotional response to trauma, to blood, to violence, to the point where they can still sleep well at night, to the point where they can still eat? Apparently, as I mentioned, the most delicious meal of his life, he seems to be really enjoying.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Randolph Rice. Joining me, a former felony prosecutor, current criminal defense, and civil lawyer at Rice Law, a firm founded by him, Randolph Rice. Thank you for being with us. You know how many times I would play that in front of the jury? The jury would probably be sick to their stomachs looking at the crime scene photos and seeing that sheet unfolded. I was just showing, but it's not bothering him. You know who reminds me of Randolph Rice? And you're going to hate this? Scott Peterson. When the detectives. And they told it to me here on Crime Stories one night when the detectives came to Scott Peterson and said, scott, the bodies that washed up at San Francisco Bay, we just got back the DNA, and it's Lacey and your son Connor. Within about 12 minutes, they were in the car. He asked him to pull over. I believe it was to an in and out so he could get a double double with cheese and a milkshake. Mm, that just rubbed me the wrong way. Same thing here. What do you do with your client? You can't help him now. He did that before you got hired, chowing down pepperoni, sausage, lemon, the works, while Bella and Celeste photos are right in front of him.

[Randolph Rice]

And Nancy, you're exactly right. That's what prosecutors would have shown at this case, gone to trial immediately, was this is the indifference that he has towards the death of his children. And that's exhibit A when it comes to trying to show or showing at least a jury, if he had gone to trial, that he is just a monster inside of. The other guests have said, okay, you

[Nancy Grace]

do know that you're a defense attorney, right? You haven't traveled into some alternate universe. What do you do with something like that? What do you say to a jury? They look at that. Then they look over at you and are like, what? What do you say, Nancy?

[Randolph Rice]

That's one of the hardest things to deal with when you've got situations like this, evidence that you just cannot get around. And that's when you ultimately tell your clients, this may be a case that we have to take a plea on because we're not going to win based on a jury seeing how you are just indifferent to these photographs.

[Nancy Grace]

Randolph Rice, I'm going to help you. I'm going to throw you a crutch so you can limp out of this conversation. Have you ever heard of stress eating that he was so upset he was just, like, gobbling it down? What about that? Or here's a great one from the back to Scott Peterson. Just because he's a low life crud, a cheater, a philanderer and a liar doesn't mean he's a killer. Just because he's pigging out doesn't mean he committed murder. I'm helping you, Randolph. GR the life raft I'm throwing to you.

[Randolph Rice]

Those are all great defenses. And I think. Here's one more. The fact that he felt so comfortable in that examination room that he was able to eat shows that he's innocent altogether. So that's an argument that I'd make in front of the jury.

[Nancy Grace]

And you obviously said that with a straight face. Sherrilyn Cadle is joining us, author of the Murders of Christopher Watts and the Many Faces of Christopher Watts, A Five Year Update. And I hope you've got a third book in you because there's so much more, starting with Old Time Religion. I had that in my head all night. I couldn't get it out of my head. Have you ever had that happen? You remember that old song? It was good for Grandma, Grandpa. It's good enough for me. Old Time Religion. He's using it to lure women into his love trap. But before I get to that, who is this guy that chows down on a pepperoni pizza while he's looking at the children he murdered?

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

Well, two things. He detached himself, I believe, and I'm not a doctor, but I, I. In spending time with him, I can see that he is able to detach himself from the situation. And he told me once that he never occurred to him that he would get caught. So when he was sitting in this integration, he didn't. He hadn't had his lie detector test yet, so in his mind, he was still okay. They were treating him nice, you know, the police officers, and they knew how to. They knew how to work him because they felt sorry for him. If you notice, she taps him on the back and she's feeling sorry for him. They know how to get everything out of him because he, he's a player. And so he's easily played, I believe.

[Chris Watts (interview clips)]

Are you hungry at all with some pizza? I feel bad eating any of your food. No. Explain. What kind of pizza do you like? It doesn't matter, really. Okay, whatever. Thank you. Do you like that kind?

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

But these women, they want to marry him. They Want to support him, they want to visit with him, they want to talk to him on the phone.

[Nancy Grace]

I mean, he may smile, but there's something cold in his eyes. What an artful dress, deceiver he is. You know, that's what the devil is often called, the deceiver.

[Chris Watts (interview clips)]

We can hear each other anywhere in our room with the acoustics. We put our chairs next to the wall where there's a plug in, and you can hear like a phone.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

At the Dodge Correctional Institution, Chris Watts can hear adjoining cellmate Dylan Tallman, imprisoned on drug charges since 19, and the two become close. Tallman claims Watts truly found God watching a Nancy Grace program on the murders of his pregnant wife and daughters. Tallman says as Grace addresses Watts through the tv, while photos of Shanann, Bella and Celeste flash on screen, Watts falls to his knees and confesses his sins. Tallman calls the moment Watts rock bottom.

[Nancy Grace]

You were seeing clips from a Lifetime movie Network movie about Watts and Shanann. Wait a minute. Steve Helling joining us, Daily Mail. So he claims he found the Lord, and I'm not poo pooing that I'm happy he found the Lord and he can get complete forgiveness from the Lord. That does not mean he gets out of jail. So he claims he found the Lord. Or is it the friend Talman? After watching one of our programs, Dylan

[Steve Helling]

Tallman was the one who told me that you were talking about him and they were watching it and you addressed him through the tv, according to Dylan, and said, chris Watts, what is wrong with you? Basically, and it was the moment that Chris allegedly, according to Dylan, dropped to his knees, confessed his sins, became a Christian, whatever you said, convicted him enough that he decided to make a conversion.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, well, maybe that will get me into heaven. Dr. Judy Ho, again, clinical forensic neuropsychologist, author of multiple books. Dr. Judy, I've seen a lot of behind bars conversions and I'm happy for them. But for this guy, Chris Watts, I find it hard to believe

[Dr. Judy Ho]

you have to be a bit spectacle, especially given what we've seen of his behavior so far. Is this just another ploy? Is this just another manipulation? We haven't even really gotten into all of the women who he appears to have been manipulating behind bars. And so he can be a very convincing storyteller. Right? And like you said, Nancy, if someone has truly converted, asked to be forgiven, is trying to be a better person, found God, that's awesome. If that's really happened. But based on what we've seen so far, and I'm just talking about behaviors Only not that convinced. Really not that convinced.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, behind bars. Conversion. Or is Watts using his old time religion conversion to lure women? Take a listen to it as best he says.

[Dylan Tallman]

Talman says Watts refuses to discuss his crimes outside the context of faith. Comparing his actions to Bible stories, Watts mostly focuses on the sin of adultery, very seldom mentioning the actual murders. Watts compares affair partner Nicole Kessinger, whom he convinced his marriage was over, to Bathsheba and Jezebel. Watts writes of Nicole, she is of

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

evil spirits like Jezebel. The words of a harlot have brought me low. Her flattering speech was like drops of honey that pierced my heart and soul. Little did I know that all her guests were in the chamber of death. How did I let this happen? The blessings you have bestowed upon me were right in front of me. And still I followed the perfume of a strange woman.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, what did I just hear? My ears are bleeding. Sidney Sumner. He is blaming murdering his wife and two ladies. Are you listening? You that are riding him and patting his commissary account. Okay, Sydney, help me. He's blaming the murders that he committed on his wife and two girls. On who? His wife Shannan and his lover, Nicole Kessinger.

[Sidney Sumner]

Well, we've got two layers. So he originally tries to blame these murders on Shannan. He says he came home, told Shannan he wanted a divorce, and she turned around and killed their children, which is why he killed her and then got rid of all of the bodies. So that was the original story. He tried to convince everyone is what truly happened. And now that he's been convicted and everyone kind of knew. There's no way Shanann killed her own children. He then flips it on Nicole Kessinger and says it's her fault. If he never had met her, if they'd never been dating, he never would have killed his family.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, there's Nicole Kessinger. And speaking of Bathsheba, now he's blaming when none of this is. Okay, there's a booty shot when none of this is working. Randolph Rice. I don't guess you've ever used a biblical defense. He begins to blame Bathsheba and Jezebel. You know, Bathsheba is right. King David. David and Goliath. Same David. Why do guys, your clients, always blame the woman? Okay, there's Eve. It's her fault. She listened to the snake. Now it's Bathsheba. Now it's Jezebel. Who's next? Salome, who danced in front of the king and then he chopped off John the Baptist head and served it on a silver platter. Who's next?

[Randolph Rice]

Nancy? I think this is all just coming from a jailhouse snitch who wants to get his 15 minutes of fame. And I'm not really sure that that's actually got much validity as to what his real beliefs are. And to be honest with you, this may be as his finding of God. This religious experience he's had may be a basis for his defense attorneys to go back to court and ask for some sort of modification of his sentence. If he truly is asking for forgiveness,

[Nancy Grace]

put him up. What? Because he has converted to Christianity. According to him, the narcissist psychopath, the sociopath, him that will say anything and woof down a pizza looking at of his dead children, that's going to get an order modification, which means a sentence reduction.

[Randolph Rice]

How, Nancy, it's always worth a try. If there's some sort of change in your life, some sort of thing that you have come forward and been able to maybe make some admission or some acceptance of guilt here, that it may be worth going back to the court and asking for some sort of modification of this sentence.

[Nancy Grace]

Always the woman's fault. I hope his next judge isn't a woman.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Watts blames the women in his life for his family's demise, which he calls the tragedy. Watts first blames pregnant wife Shanann for the murders, claiming she strangled Bella and Celeste after he asked for a divorce and he killed her in a rage. Watts eventually admits he killed his daughters out of a desire to clear Shanann's name. Watts then places the blame on Kessinger's temptation, claiming she enticed him into his murderous spree.

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

There's so many women think that he's good looking to the point that all these women that have written him, Nancy, they sent him money in the mail. He has a fan club. My takeaway is that there's something in him, that he thinks he can just woo any woman.

[Dylan Tallman]

While Tallman says Watts is genuinely a man of faith, he admits Watts still has an incredible weakness for women. Watts quickly becomes infatuated, even obsessed with female pen pals, writing them 15 page letters front and back. Hours poured into these relationships keeps Watts commissary account padded. Multiple women making regular contributions.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, now we're hearing this from a guy, Dylan Tallman. Who is he?

[Dr. Judy Ho]

Listen, Chris.

[Nancy Grace]

Watts lost all his prison privileges for

[Randolph Rice]

22 weeks after his underwear was found

[Nancy Grace]

in a man's cell.

[Randolph Rice]

An incident report that reveals Watts underwear

[Nancy Grace]

and petroleum jelly were found in a fellow inmate Dylan Tallman's cell. Okay, not judging, don't care. This is from podcast lockup 23 and 1, Steve Helling, Chris Watts's underwear and vesseling and Tallman's jail cell. What?

[Steve Helling]

I mean, I've spent a lot of time talking to Dylan Tallman, and I don't know exactly what that's all about. I don't think that there's anything there. There just on. Based on what? I don't know. I can say that Chris, you never can tell. Chris will do whatever Chris needs to do to ingratiate himself with people, whatever that means. And so he decided that Dylan, somebody who he could write books with, who he could kind of use as an outside conduit. And whatever Chris was trying to do, I don't know, I have no idea why his underwear would be in. In Chris's cell. I don't know, but I don't think it's what everybody thinks.

[Nancy Grace]

You are an investigative reporter, right?

[Steve Helling]

Yes. Well, I mean, here's the thing.

[Nancy Grace]

Both Chris and you can't figure out why Watts's underwear and Vaseline were in Tom and Cell. I mean, you want me to draw you a diagram, Helen, I would actually

[Steve Helling]

prefer that you don't. But yeah, I mean, I understand what you're saying, and I don't know, you know, they both have said multiple times there was nothing sexual between them. And Chris really does seem to be much more fixated on the women and on the ladies. But then prison does things to people, so I can't answer that question.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, Sidney Sumner joining us. Crime stories Investigative reporter may have an innocent, well, quasi innocent explanation that Watts went fishing from cell to cell.

[Sidney Sumner]

Right. So their official story behind what happened here is that Coleman was being punished. He was not allowed to leave his cell. He was not allowed to have access to commissary items. So Watts was helping him out by ordering commissary items for Tallman and then using dental floss to throw them down the hallway underneath the cell door so Tallman could pull that item in and use it. So Watts was ordering commissary things. The items were arriving with his name on them, then he was giving them to Tallman for his personal use. And when Tallman got caught with these items, it made for this embarrassing headline.

[Nancy Grace]

I want to get back to luring women with old time religion. And joining me now, Cheryl Lynn Cadle. She is the author of the Murders of Christopher Watts and the Many Faces of Christopher Watts, a five year update. Who are these women, Cheryl Lynn?

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

They come from every walk of life. And what is Interesting is that many of them will send me a message through messenger telling me that they are riding with him and talking to him on the phone and what should they do? And it doesn't matter how many times that I tell them, get away, don't do this, stay away from him, they end up going that direction anyway. When he gets them to a certain point, one woman divorced her husband over him. When, when he gets them to a certain point, then he tells them, this can't go anywhere for you and I'm breaking up with you. And he goes on to the next. And he has several women at a time that he's writing to, writing long letters to. And yeah, and it's, it's sad because he, they just fall for him, they send him money and they, they just, and they feel like he's godly and he's meeting their needs spiritually and that he comforts them and he knows all the right things to say. And by the way, he has used this religion thing way before he met Talman. Because my letters to him from the very beginning, which was only six months after the murders, he talks about finding God. That's how he started out with me. So I think, you know, a lot of it is just, that's one of the things that he has found that works for him. Maybe it works for him with women and men, I don't know. But yeah, he's very, very much always sending Bible scriptures to these women, always, you know, comparing himself to someone in the Bible, often Paul. One woman was convinced he's the modern day Paul in the Bible, from the Bible. So yeah, it's okay.

[Nancy Grace]

Wait a minute. Put her up, please. Cheryl Lynn, you mean Paul, formerly Saul, who murdered Christians? Saul, the persecutor for the Roman Empire, turned.

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

Correct.

[Nancy Grace]

Paul after he was blinded by the light and he would write letters from behind bars. Okay, he's comparing himself to Paul.

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

Correct.

[Nancy Grace]

And women fall for that.

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

Yes, they sure do.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, straight out to Dr. Judy Ho. We need a shrink. Dr. Judy Ho, clinical forensic neuropsychologist. What? Okay, I'd like to say what is wrong with him, but what is wrong with them?

[Dr. Judy Ho]

Nancy? I think that when people get involved with known criminals, there are some behavioral patterns. Of course, they can indeed come from all different walks of life. But I think that there are some key characteristics, like wanting to feel special, especially through maybe changing someone who may be misunderstood by society or may actually truly be innocent or are trying to turn a new leaf and they want to be that special person that changes that person. Because it makes them feel better about themselves. Also, sometimes these are individuals who have their own trauma histories, don't understand what a healthy relationship looks like to them. This is a healthy relationship. It also happens sometimes to individuals who are looking for purpose, for some kind of leadership in their life. And now they've fallen behind this person who seems like he's a leader. But do you see the way that he talks to these women, the quotes that you've been talking about all, all throughout this show, where essentially once he gets them in his grasp, then it's all about, you are subordinate to me. You are the evil one. I'm being tempted by you. None of this is my fault. And people fall for that because it's an ideology that at least guides their lives and their behavior. And they're looking to this guy to help them be their moral compass. That's clearly concerning. But when these individuals are in these relationships, they don't see, see that. They only see the love bombing. They only see that now they feel special and that they have something that's guiding their everyday and all of their steps.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with nancy grace. You know Randolph Rice, veteran trial lawyer, former felon, felony prosecutor, now criminal defense and civil attorney. I've seen it in court a million times. I didn't understand it the way Dr. Judy Ho is describing it, but I would see wives. I would say wives and girlfriends or girlfriends, even exes show up in court. When I would have a guy that had killed multiple people to support him. It's like they don't hear any of the evidence. It's like, blah, blah, blah, blah. In their head, all they hear is, I plead not guilty. Have you noticed that phenomena? These women are willing to believe anything.

[Randolph Rice]

Well, you're seeing it now in the Luigi Mangioni case, where they have. Where he's got people following him around, sending him letters, writing him, sending him commissary. This seems to be a common pattern. Now, whereas Dr. Ho mentioned that there's some people that just don't have healthy relationships, and they're ultimately attaching themselves to. To killers. So that is not a good way, I think, to live a life. If you're somebody looking for a partner out there.

[Nancy Grace]

All of you ladies that think you have a crush on Chris Watts, I want you to hear and watch his demeanor, what he first said when Shanann, his wife, the mother of his three children, went missing, this is what he said first.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

She tell you anything about leaving, moving

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

out, not moving out? I mean, last time I talked to her was this Morning, she said she's

[Nancy Grace]

gonna take the kids to a friend's

[Chris Watts (interview clips)]

house, and she asked where she was gonna be.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

And then I've texted her today, I've never heard anything.

[Nancy Grace]

But the car's car's here.

[Chris Watts (interview clips)]

Car?

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Unless somebody came, picked her up.

[Nancy Grace]

But the people that I know,

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

nobody's heard from her.

[Nancy Grace]

Nobody. And then he said this.

[Chris Watts (interview clips)]

Shanann, Bella, Celeste, if you're out there, just come back. Like, if somebody has her, just please bring her back. I need to see everybody. I need to see everybody again. This house is not complete with. Without anybody here.

[Nancy Grace]

Please bring her back. That from our friends at Denver 7. And then finally this.

[Chris Watts (interview clips)]

Did they leave after that? So she started her begins.

[Nancy Grace]

So that last clip was him telling his father that he killed Shanann after she murdered her children. This one, she's about eight or nine months pregnant. And then ultimately this.

[Chris Watts (interview clips)]

Are they in the tanks? Can somebody who doesn't know there. You want to open those? Okay. It's easy to open. What's in the tanks? It's a mixture of oil and water. There was a sheet found down here. Was that from. That was what ch was wrapped in. What about the chromies? What were they wrapped in? None of their blankets or anything. Where did their blankets and toys and stuff go? Probably flew away on the wind or something. Right here. Where did you shut them or put them?

[Nancy Grace]

You gotta give the people what they want.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

In a shocking display, cheers erupt as pictures of Luigi Mangione on screen as the DJ plays Miley Cyrus. He could be the one. The crowd cheering photos of Luigi Mangione. The cheers get even louder as Mangione's recent booking photos are shown. Mangione has become a sex symbol since his arrest and a fundraiser has raised over $100,000 for legal fees. And Veronica says, I need him so bad. No, like, so bad. So, so bad. Okay, so I would visit him in prison and bake him cookies, maybe, perhaps more.

[Nancy Grace]

But I haven't thought that far ahead that fromso 1027 on TikTok and Jimmy Kimmel Live. So it's history repeating itself. To Steve Helling joining us from Daily Mail. Who first correct the code on this Luigi Mangione. Christopher Watts. Same thing.

[Steve Helling]

Same thing. Except on some twisted level, I can say, okay with Luigi, maybe if you think that he was making a political statement, I don't know. But Chris Watts was just evil. Like, there's no broader statement that was being made here. There was no altruism. There was no revenge. It was just evil. Just an awful Grisly murder of little girls.

[Nancy Grace]

Did you somehow state, Luigi Mangione committed murder, but it's okay because of peaceful. Right, right. To peaceful protest? Because it sounded like that's what you just said.

[Steve Helling]

Okay, well, don't put, don't put those words in my mouth. What I am saying is that I understand.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, you did that yourself.

[Steve Helling]

There are people who can make allowances in their head for other crimes, but with Chris Watts, there's no way that a sane person can explain away what he did in anything other than being evil. There's just no possible way. And so the idea that all these women, and there's lots of them, by the way, and they've started coming forward basically when he breaks up with them, then they come to the media and they're like, hey, Steve, want to see some letters? And the thing is, I've seen enough of Chris Watts's handwritten pages. I've seen hundreds of pages that it's pretty easy to look at it and be like, okay, that's, that's another one of Chris's things. And you know, the latest one who came to me, she just had all these letters where he's, you know, kind

[Nancy Grace]

of comparing himself to Bible saying.

[Steve Helling]

He compares himself to Bible characters. He says that he would. He. A big thing is he didn't do anything. He doesn't say he didn't do anything wrong. But what he does say is that Nicole Kessinger kind of tempted him. It's very much the woman. The woman did this to me, the woman made me do this. And there's, you know, one thing to do with, when it comes to, you know, converting to Christianity and that type of thing is you've got to accept your own sin. You've gotta, you've got to be able to, to say, I did this and take some ownership. And he doesn't really do that. It's mostly the woman did this, the woman did that, but you're kind of hot, so let's keep talking. That's kind of where he is.

[Nancy Grace]

You're scaring me because it's kind of like you're getting into his character and you're explaining it a little too well. Okay. There are women that go beyond the Chris Watts phenomena and they actually marry killers.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

The day Eric and Lyle Menendez are sentenced to life in prison, Lyle Menendez also ties the knot with model Anna Erickson via speakerphone. With Menendez aunt and attorney as their witnesses, the relationship is short lived. Erikson filing for divorce when she discovers her husband is writing Love letters to other women. Just two years later, Menendez marries again, this time to magazine editor Rebecca Sneed. After 20 years, Sneed announces their separation, denies the split is due to another

[Nancy Grace]

affair that was about Lyle Menendez, who murdered his mom and dad, the brother, Eric Menendez. Multiple relationships, marriage behind bars, the works. Okay, then of course, I have to bring up Jorn van Der Sloot.

[Narrator/Documentary Voice]

Hours after Joran Van Der Sloot accepts $25,000 from Natalee Holloway's family, then lies about her body, Van Der Sloot is gambling in Lima. There he meets Stephanie Flores, daughter of a prominent Peruvian businessman. At Hotel Tax, Van Der Sloot attacks Flores, beating and strangling her to death, her body found three days later.

[Dylan Tallman]

Lady Figueroa, a young mother, visits a relative in Pierre des Gordas prison, but starts spending more time with inmate Joran Van Der Sloot. It isn't long before Figueroa is pregnant with Van Der Sloot's baby. Figueroa and Van Der Sloot marry in his cell. After almost 10 years together, Van Der Sloot wants a divorce, training Figueroa for younger, prettier Eva Pacohuanco, who smuggles him drugs.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Judy Ho. We have heard Steve Helling describing all these women that are writing Chris Watts and how he takes comfort and solace from those letters. I don't think that's all he's getting from those letters.

[Dr. Judy Ho]

No, he's getting sexual gratification. And when people are. This is again, Nancy, I feel like a broken record. This has not happened. This is not the first time this is happening. But people who may be psychopaths and sociopaths also get sexual gratification from things that other people would usually find morbid, not at all sexually exciting. And this is their way of stimulating their brain, which oftentimes have lower activation thresholds. So what that means is they need something really out of norm, really, sometimes even grotesque, disgusting, morally just putrid, to be able to get excited. Not just sexually excited, but excited in general. We get excited when we have a great meal. That's a normal person. These individuals, that's not enough for them. They need something really, really out of the box and sometimes often disgusting, to be excited about life, excited sexually to feel feelings of joy. So it's pretty twisted to Shery Lynn

[Nancy Grace]

Caddle, author of the Murders of Chris Watts and the Many Faces of Chris Watts, a five Year update. What is he like when he talks to you?

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

Well, I let him know from the very, very get go that this was not a romantic relationship. I wanted to have with him, that I wanted to write a book with him. And so we had more of a, well, a mother, son type relationship. A friend relationship is. Is, you know, as far as it can go for that. I. There was never anything romantic between us. But he did tell me about things, mainly things that happened with Nicole Kessinger that he did with her and things, I think, that really got him on the hook with her. And, you know, in my feeling, you

[Nancy Grace]

just can't drop a line like that on me and me not ask, what are you talking about? What happened with Nicole Kessinger?

[Sherrilyn Cadle]

I don't know if I can say if I'm allowed to say it on tv. Just some of the things. Well, he told me some of the things that went on in that apartment between the two of them he would take to his grave, which is what he said about a couple of different things. And in my talking with him, there were, I believe.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, let me understand this, Sherilyn. So he is embarrassed and appalled at his sex acts with Nicole Kessinger, but he freely discusses murdering Shanann Watts and the two children. For all of you women out there that think he is handsome, that he's a real hottie, I don't know why the control room keeps showing the picture of him without his shirt on. Dr. Kendall. There you go. Take that down. Dr. Kendall. Crowns. Could you just explain what is skin slippage?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Certainly what happens when you decompose, the outer layer of your skin or the epidermis, the bonds that hold it to the dermis, which is the under layer of your skin, start breaking down and your skin starts sloughing off. This happens after several days of decomposition, especially if you're in a warm environment and then all your skin begins sloughing off, showing the dermis. And in fact, your hands and feet will slip off in a glove and stocking, like, distribution and still kind of stay intact. That's just a normal process of decomposition.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Kendall crowns. As much as I would love to discuss the skin slippage of these two little girls and their mother, I need to dash out of the studio right now and take a shower, a hot shower. Actually, no, I need to go boil myself after hearing this. We stop now to remember an American hero. Reserve Deputy Eddie Hamer, Hardiman County Sheriff's, Tennessee. Just 36, killed in the line of duty after serving nine years. He leaves behind his grieving mother, American hero. Reserve Deputy Eddie Hamer, Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.