A (0:00)

This is an I Heart podcast. It starts like any other night. The glass of red, the cozy blanket, then the drop. The stain so dark, so stubborn it might as well have been a crime scene. But this isn't your average couch. This is Anna Bay. Fully washable, unspeakably comfortable, and ready for whatever your life, your kids or your ex throws at it. And here's the kicker. Starting at just $6.99, you can make sure your sofa isn't part of the problem. Fully washable, stain resistant, and built to hide even the darkest defenses. Right now, get up to 60% off with their early access Black Friday sale because no one should have to live with a stain that won't quit. Anna Bay the only mystery you won't be losing sleep over shop washablesofas.com today that's washablesofas.com starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark, the new Hulu Original series Murdoch Death in the Family dives into secrets, deception, murder and the fall of a powerful Southern dynasty. Inspired by shocking actual events and drawing from reporting by Mandy Matney in her hit podcast, this series brings the drama to the screen like never before. Watch the Hulu Original Series Murdoch Death in the Family, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundled subscribers. Terms apply. Every now and then I rinse it out and I need tummy rinse tonight and I need it more. My kick wet the bed and the smell never leaves. I don't know what to do. I'm always in the the dark. The sweat sh smells like a dark downy rinse fights stubborn odors in just one wash. When impossible odors get stuck in crime stories with Nancy Grace, convicted killer Brian Coburger says I owe the victims nothing. This as Coburger is cost price shopping at Costco and at a coffee shop immediately after the murders. So let me understand. He has pled guilty to slaughtering four people that he thought he would find asleep in their beds after he had dreamed about raping comatose women. And then after slaughtering them, leaving the scene, boiling himself in the shower, he goes to Costco to price shop. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. 911 location of your emergency. Something just happened to you. Something happened to not help. I don't know what. Kaylee went upstairs and she screamed because someone had known that. She ran downstairs and I kept calling her name and she went instantly. First, I want to make sure I've got my facts straight Before I go out to a forensic psychologist, Allison Paganelli. Susan Hendricks is joining me, investigative journalist. She's on the Kohberger case from the get go. She is the author of a brand new book down the My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Susan, I just want to make sure I understand this. The timeline here and McDonough, jump in if you know better. SUSAN Bryan Kohberger. We're not, just supposing we're not hypothesizing. Bryan Kohberger admitted pled guilty to four murders. They were worse than murders. They were slaughters of four innocent college students. University of Idaho. And now, do I have this right? Susan Hendricks, he then goes home, boils himself in the shower, takes a few selfies. Hey, control room, can I see the shower selfies? He took like an hour after he gets home to his apartment in Pullman with the thumbs up, all fresh and clean from the quadruple murder. And then he goes out to Costco to price shop and get an expensive cup of coffee. Do I have that right? SUSAN Hendricks. Yes. And by the way, before taking that selfie, he goes back to the crime scene a little after 9am was it to look for the evidence he left behind. And we do know that he called his mother as well, but. Right, just goes into Costco. He wasn't able to get inside. I don't know if he didn't know you needed a card to get in, but he's just acting like it's a normal day after slaughtering, as you said, four college students. Yeah, you need a car to get into Costco. Okay, I'm going to show you the video of him in Costco. He is drinking out of a water bottle. There he goes. And watch this. Yep. Hide that left hand. Hide that. He keeps that in his left pocket. I'm surprised he didn't go off on the female Costco person. That diminutive lady there with a blonde ponytail. He's like, what? I need a car to get in Costco. Yeah. CO Burger. You need a card. It says Costco on it. Allison Paganelli joining us Board. A certified forensic psychologist affiliated with Park Dietz and Associates. 18 years of experience. Alison, I'm not a shrink. I'm just a JD but who goes from a slaughterhouse where you murder four people to price shopping in Costco? Well, it's, it's hard to say why he was doing those things right. After slaughtering college students. He could have been trying to get some security footage of him looking like just a regular guy. He might have been kind of sniffing around to see if anybody recognized him or had tied him to the crime yet. It is unusual. I'm thinking more about the mind of someone that could pull this off. But you brought up a really good point. I'm going to circle back to you because I got to throw this to Eric Faddis. Eric Faddis is a veteran criminal defense attorney. Joining us, TV legal analyst founding partner, Varner Faddis, elite legal and former felony prosecutor. We know what he was doing. Faddis. I believe Allison took me quite literally. I want her to go into the mine. Like, who can do that? Faddis. Clearly he's trying to establish an alibi. See him all clean and crisp and bright and shiny here in Costco. Who could do that? Well, him. He could do that because we know he's already admitted to doing it. But he was trying to establish an alibi. And now I've got the footage to show it. Yeah, Nancy, I mean, when it comes to an alibi, you have to be seen by someone. You have to have an alibi witness. You have to have some evidence that you were somewhere else. And so, yeah, it makes sense strategically to try and go out and be seen and, and be on camera and find people who view you who would say, hey, yeah, I saw him at Costco. He couldn't have been conducting these heinous murders, you know, moments before this. I think that was likely his intention, but his alibi in the case was garbage. And this was kind of a trash attempt at accomplishing that as well. And then it didn't work because ding dong didn't know you have to have a card to go sauntering around the aisles at Costco and taste all the samples. It didn't work. So he had to leave and get another alibite where he could be lingering. So where did he go? A coffee kiosk. Let's see, that one control room. He goes into what looks like a grocery store, headed straight for. I think it's going to be a Starbucks kiosk wearing the same outfit as we saw before. There he goes. Okay, back to Allison Paganelli joining us, board certified forensic psychologist. So what I'm asking you is how do you switch gears like that? Most people would be upset about what had just happened. I mean, I've mentioned this before. I've seen rookie cops vomit on a murder scene where there was just one dead body, much less four people slaughtered. I mean, for Pete's sake, Kelly Goncalves was disfigured. She was stabbed over 30 times in the face. And then he is all bright and shiny going into Costco. What kind of mind can do that? Well, first, I want to say I've never met Brian Kohlberger. I've never evaluated him. But for some people who meet criteria for a psychopathic personality, research has shown that the part in their brain, the amygdala, which is activated when something's highly emotional, that their amygdala doesn't function like the rest of us. They're not as scared of things as we are. I do find it odd that he was involved in such a physical crime and then to go, as you said, casually saunter around these. These stores, you know, the adrenaline alone, you would think would keep him from doing that, but clearly, this is planful behavior. And it's not that he was, you know, numbed out and didn't know what he did. This was a, you know, plan for an alibi. But let's just say his amygdala wasn't firing as it should have been. Again, I'm not diagnosing him with anything. I've never met him, but that's my best gu. Chris McDonough joining us, Director, Cold Case foundation, former homicide detective with over 300 homicides under his belt, star of the interview room on YouTube. Chris, I hear what Allison Paganelli is saying about the amygdala. Don't care. I don't even really know what that means. She's saying a part of his brain doesn't fire. In other words, function the way ours does. That is not legal insanity. That's not even a mental defect. I hear her. I don't doubt her. But, I mean, balls the size of coconuts. That's how I would diagnose it, because this guy admits we know he did it. He admitted in court he slaughtered four people, three girls and one sleeping guy. And now he's, as I said, sauntering through the aisles. He's going into a grocery store for coffee because that first alibi thing didn't work out where he wanted to go up and down the aisles of Costco and get caught on every single surveillance camera they've got. So then he had to go somewhere else. I mean, what is this guy? He is also continuing to make conscious decisions, Nancy. If you notice when he comes into Costco, his shirt is untucked, it's disheveled, his right rear pocket is inside out. Did he play a game like, oh, I forgot my wallet. But then when you see him at the coffee shop, he has made A decision to tuck in his shirt and walk through that coffee shop. So he is consciously thinking about his appearance. And I still believe, you know, at this moment, he's playing a game. What game? The game of, you know, you're not going to catch me. And this goes towards his consciousness of guilt that he's thinking through every move that he makes. Mm. Mm. He could have argued to a jury. Look how clean and pristine I am after a bloodbath. Nobody could pull this off. You've got the wrong guy. I was at Costco sitting in the parking lot when this happened. Whatever he wanted to say, but that's why he's there. But the Costco thing didn't work out. When the attendant told him he couldn't get in. He would have probably spent an hour in there trying to look like a normal person. It starts like any other night. The glass of red, the cozy blanket. Then the drop. The stain so dark, so stubborn, it might as well have been a crime scene. But this isn't your average couch. This is Anna Bay. Fully washable, unspeakably comfortable, and ready for whatever your life, your kids or your ex throws at it. And here's the kicker. Starting at just $6.99, you can make sure your sofa isn't part of the problem. Fully washable, stain resistant, and built to hide even the darkest defenses. Right now, get up to 60% off with their early access Black Friday sale because no one should have to live with a stain that won't quit. Annabe the only mystery you won't be losing sleepover shop washablesofas.com today, that's washablesofas.com every now and then I rinse it out and I need tummy rinse tonight and I need it more. My kid wears the bed and the smell never leaves. I don't know what to do. I'm always in the dark. The sweat in that short smells like a dark. I'm Downy Rinsing tonight. Downy Rinse fights stubborn odors in just one wash. When impossible odors get stuck in crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys. Also, we are learning that Kelly Gonzalez's sister confronts the prosecutor, Bill Thompson, that dropped the ball and wimped out on the death penalty about what really happened to her sister. Listen. Olivia Gonsalves asks Bill Thompson if there's any possibility the victim's autopsy photos could wind up plastered across the Internet. And Thompson warns her of his fears of a leaker in their department who has yet to be caught. Olivia makes the Difficult decision to view the state's exhibits from Kaylee's autopsy, wanting to be prepared in case she ever ran into them unexpectedly. Olivia learns that what she was led to believe were defensive wounds may have been something else entirely. Something else entirely. Not defensive wounds. In a NUTSHELL To Chris McDonough, you've seen defensive wounds on murder victims probably since day one. They can be on your arms, your hands, when you try to fight off an attacker. If the victim goes into a fetal position, you will see defensive wounds even on their knees and their legs, where they're trying to curl up and fight off the attacker. What defensive wounds would you have expected on the victims in this case? You would see them on their hands because, you know, they're placing their hands up into a position to prevent, you know, a knife. In this case, you would probably get them here on the forearms as well, and you'd be able to tell, you know, post mortem if they were post mortem or if they actually occurred during the homicide itself. So now we are hearing through the Goncalves family that some of the wounds may have been interpreted as defensive, but they're not. Listen, I don't want to be doing this, but no one on the state side is standing up and giving details like this. And I get it to some extent, but it's creating, like, massive amounts of chaos. The GAO order protected an absolute monster. It's disgusting. Olivia Gonzalez flies to Idaho for a face to face meeting with Bill Thompson to get answers to lingering questions about her sister's murder. The prosecutor goes over the full list of Kaylee's wounds with Olivia, and the two discuss his decision not to take the case to trial. Olivia and her family still do not agree with the plea deal. You know, Susan Hendricks, to think that the sister of Kelly Gonzalez. Oh, by the way, some of that was from Olivia Gonzalez on TikTok. Has to get on a plane at her own expense and fly to ask the prosecutor questions because she can't get answers about what happened to her sister. That's crying shame. Yeah, we're coming up on three years, Nancy. And to think they still don't have the answers they want. And what comes out of Bill Thompson's mouth always shocks me. What do you mean they could be leaked? What about the gag order? So Olivia decides, I'm going to go there by myself, take control, look at the photos just in case they're leaked. That happened in Deli. It can happen. So she looked at her sister, if you can imagine, stabbed 34 times. Some of the Wounds. As Chris was saying, there's some defensive wounds. Some of them were not defensive. Investigators are saying, and they told her they could be experimental. I think the minute he got on campus in Washington state, he was obsessed with committing this crime, and I believe it, that they could be, quote, unquote, experimental. Listen to Olivia Goncalves. Some of the wounds that were made to Keeley were described as experimental. So a wound that might typically in its presentation look defensive might not have necessarily been defensive because at some point he was inflicting wounds that, I mean, any logical person would know wouldn't be fatal. So I don't want to speculate on, you know, what exactly he was doing, whether it was to, you know, just cause pain or whatnot. But yeah, that's from Olivia Gonzalez on TikTok. Now let's analyze what she just said. Some of the wounds made to her sister Kelly were described as, quote, experimental. It could have presented as a defensive wound. But now the theory is they were experimental. In other words, inflicting wounds that anyone would know are not fatal. For what? The joy of causing the pain. With us, a renowned board certified forensic pathologist, anatomic pathologist, Dr. Priya Banerjee with Anchor Forensic Pathology Consulting. Dr. Priya, thank you for being with us. What are experimental wounds and how can you identify them or differentiate them from defensive wounds? You really have to look at why were there so many wounds. And the most important thing is, as Chris McDonough said, you can differentiate anti mortem wounds, meaning when she was physiologically alive, to post mortem wound. Right. Which means whether there's bleeding with the wounds or not. And then we get into how deep are they and are they injurious or are they almost like a torture? Right. So very superficial, repeated wounds, we see that in torture cases. But now if they don't have bleeding with them, is he getting some sort of joy by just repeatedly stabbing her or hurting her, even if she's basically passed away? Experimental wounds are typically injuries created in a controlled setting, for instance, to study wound healing or test therapies like tissue repair or blood coagulation or inflammation. But to you, Chris McDonough, that's not why experimental wounds were inflicted in this case, is it? No, not at all, Nancy. And you know, what's probably occurring here is remember, he is executing his family fantasy and nothing is going his way. And so the fact that if those are post mortem wounds, as Dr. Priya was talking about, then you would expect to kind of connect that either a, to his fantasy or B, to his learning for the next victim. That is, if he got away with this, he would try to do something else to the next victim, because he just learned from these four victims. So the point, I guess, Susan Hendricks, would be that many of the wounds on the victims were, quote, experimental wounds, wounds that Kohberger would know would not cause death, but they would cause extreme pain. Like the 30 stabs to Kelly's face. I mean, I still don't understand how the prosecutor thought it was a good idea not to sit, seek the maximum penalty in this case, at least present the death penalty to the jury when we now understand these were not defensive wounds. They were experimental wounds to inflict pain, specifically before he murdered them. I mean, it just gets more shocking the more we find out. I believe there was a narrative that they were spreading early on, as you know, the coroner. We really never hear them interviewed, covering these stories. And she said, oh, they were all asleep. I remember that soon after, no, they weren't. The narrative wasn't even close to that. And now we're hearing he had time for experimental and xanachinodal. Stabbed 50 times. What went on in that house, I believe we'll never know the full extent of it, but, boy, are we learning. Coming up on three years. These wounds didn't necessarily make a lot of sense. They were described to me as experimental. And on Kaylee specifically, there was evidence that he continued the attack after she was no longer even. Even fighting back. So just in light of that, just because there's a wound on a hand or a wound on a forearm or wound on, you know, a wrist, these really, really classic defensive places. Unfortunately, we just can't make that assumption from Olivia Goncalves on TikTok Talk. I remember I was in my room and I was trying to go to bed, and I heard Kaylee, her go upstairs. Like, okay, I'm going to go to sleep now. She's going upstairs. Kaylee and dog Murphy. She's not waking up. Yeah. Convicted quadruple killer Brian Coburger sauntering through Costco and toward a coffee kiosk within hours after slaughtering four beautiful university, Idaho students. And now we are learning wounds to the bodies were experimental. In other words, those wounds were not defensive. They were inflicted by Kohberger simply to cause pain, not to kill. Those were the other mortal wounds. These wounds were just for the fun of it. Listen. And even if they were, the body reacts and there's reflexes to, you know, protect your. Your face, your head, your neck. It doesn't mean that someone wasn't. Wasn't sleeping beforehand or, you know, was just briefly woken. So, yeah, yeah, that's Olivia Gonzalez on Tick Tock, Haley's sister. But even given the fact that we now know many of the wounds, the knife wounds, were just to amuse Kohberger, to inflict pain on his victims, they weren't even fighting back anymore. He just did it for his own amusement. Even knowing that, he is now saying, I owe the victims and their families nothing. Listen, Bill Thompson's plea deal isn't keeping Bryan Kohberger as quietly locked away as originally hoped. The convicted quadruple murderer is now contesting his financial restitution to the victims. He argues he should not have to pay the victims families because they benefited from several GoFundMe pages and did not suffer economic loss. Kohberger also points out even if he wanted to pay, he has no way to raise the funds, seeing as he will spend the rest of his natural life behind bars. Okay, what? After all the pain and suffering he has caused? Susan Hendricks, investigative reporter. He's now saying, I owe the victims nothing. It's despicable. Recently, Stacy Chapin, Ethan Chapin's mom, says soon after the murder, she stood outside of that house knowing her son was inside. And in the court documents, you see that Ethan was stabbed. More. There were some wounds on his hands. It's not clear if it happened that night, but think about the excruciating pain they all are going through to this day. It'll never go away. And he's mentioning GoFundMes. Yeah, he doesn't have a job in prison, but why mention the gofundmes and still trying to bring down the families of what he did? I don't think. Obviously, clearly, he's not sorry at all. And it's disgusting. What? What is that? Joining me, Eric Faddis, veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney. How did his lawyers even let him make I owe the victims nothing? And now contesting. He's got his lawyers on board. They're contesting that he owes restitution. Yeah, and I mean, clearly a touchy issue and an egregious case here, but, you know, in terms of our system, we got to make sure we're being fair to both sides. Even somebody who's unpopular, even somebody who might be seen as despicable. You know, his lawyers are arguing that there is a plea agreement which is essentially a contract which. Which dictates the restitution he has to pay. And these travel expenses are not included in that. Further, he's Saying that hey, folks did not have an actual economic loss because they were reimbursed from the GoFundMe pages. And so that would essentially be like a double dipping situation. So you know, a touchy argument to me. Gotta go to bath for their clients actually accusing the four victims families of double dipping. I'm not personally accused them of anything but what I'm saying is defense is looking at this as hey, if they already got paid then they didn't suffer an actual economic loss. If they already got the travel expenses reimbursed from the GoFundMe, then any additional funds going to them would not be owed and would not be appropriate to sort of gouge funeral. What about the funeral expenses Fadis? Have you thought about that? That part is different. That is expressly referenced within the plea agreement as an item of restitution that Co Burger is going to have to pay. And so he talks in the motion about agreeing to pay for funeral expenses that he's not going to be able to pay anyway. And believe me, I'm no Co Burger sympathizer. But I think we got to make sure we're being. I don't know that. Hold on. Sydney sun rejoining me. Crime Stories investigative reporter Sydney, we've seen over and over and over where convicted killers make money behind bars. They may zoom in from behind prison walls to a conference and get paid for it. They might write a book. They might. I mean for Pete's sake, Sean Cohen's been talking on a cell phone and illegal contraband cell phone behind bars since day one. They get cell phones, they get devices behind bars, for Pete's sake. Didn't you see Alex Murdoch shirtless selfie? I could have lived without that. That said Sidney, I could see that happening and he would be paid. Isn't it true, Sidney Sumner, that in Idaho there is no Son of Sam law? They the killer can profit off their crimes. This man owes a lot of money. $250,000 in state fines, $20,000 to each of the victims families. The funeral expenses themselves were listed as $28,956. And just recently the state also sought an extra $20,000 for the Gonzalez family and just under $7,000 for Maddie Mogan's mother. Now we know that the returning all of the money they received from the GoFundMes as they prepared to travel to Boise for this trial. So we're not sure exactly where that process stands. But the Gonzalez family immediately commented after learning the trial was not happening that they wanted to return all of the crowdfunded money they received from the GoFundMe. The way around making money, number one, the answer to that question is Idaho does not have a Son of Sam law. In the court proceedings, if anything was mentioned that he could not quote, write a book or be in a documentary. It's so easy to get around that. And this is how it's done. Chris McDonough A strawman is set up like a shell corporation and that corporation or that author, that co author is paid and then money is funneled bit by bit it back to the defendant. That's how that works. But someone's right to free speech. In other words, writing a blood soaked documentary book that cannot be suppressed. It's the making money. The judge can order it. But there's a way around that for the straw man to be paid. I mean it happens all the time. Yeah. And Nancy, you've been talking about this from day one that he's not done. He's going to try to figure out ways around that. I mean, you know, remember, just because the wolf is inside of the cage, it doesn't mean he hasn't lost the ability to slaughter. And that's his motivation constantly is to keep slaughtering this family. So I'm very curious about how he makes the transformation from quadruple killer performing experimental torture cuts on these four victims to bright eyed and bushy tailed in Costco and headed toward a coffee kiosk now saying he refuses to pay the victims, that he owes them nothing. One of the concerns by the Gonsalves family and others is leaks, leaks such as leaks of autopsy photos. Listen. Investigators have identified the IDOC employee responsible for leaking footage from inside Coburger's cell at imsi. The male employee quit before the investigation concluded, but he will not be facing charges for his actions while filming. The security video feed is strictly prohibited by IDOC and the prison. According to the Idaho State Police. It didn't break any, any state or federal law. And back to you, Susan Hendricks. That was the jail video. Let's see the jail video that we were hearing about. This is surreptitiously taken video of Bryan Coburger behind bars. You see him looking around, his hands are bright red, I guess from washing them obsessively. Then he cleans his already clean shield. The point we're making today is nothing is going to become of that video being leaked because it wasn't a crime. But Susan Hendricks, remember the big leak of information that ended up in a Dateline special? Absolutely. And as you were talking. Nancy Something clicked for me. At first I thought why bother mention the gofundme if he doesn't have any money? I absolutely believe I was in court during the victim impact statement and the judge addressing the court, addressing the media, saying, I don't believe anyone should meet with this monster. Meaning don't write a book, don't do it. You think everyone's going to listen? I don't think so. I think the plan is for him to talk and make money. And I believe it will happen. Co Burger can write a book, but he cannot personally profit from it, according to the judge. So is this his way out of paying compensation to the family by arguing he doesn't owe them anything? And then when he does write the book and funnels the money to a strawman, there won't be a problem. Now joining us, a very special guest. He is a member of the Idaho House of Representatives. He's an elected official. It's Representative Bruce Skogg also. He is a former felony prosecutor, former deputy prosecutor in Ada county, and former member of the Nampa City Council. Interesting. He is co sponsor of House Bill186 to add the firing squad as a method of execution if and when lethal injection is unavailable. Why? To make sure the state of Idaho can carry out out timely, legally ordered executions now and in the future. Representative SCOTT thank you so much for being with us, privileged to be here, and a little bit of an update on our firing squad bills. Now, firing squad is the number one choice that must be taken above all other methods in Idaho for death penalty cases. Does that mean that the firing squad will be implemented or can the convicted killer ask for needle? The convicted killer may not ask for the needle. It will be firing squad from here on out. We have nine people on death row and I expect those executions to start taking place approximately a year from now. Because if you think about it, Representative Skogg, Kelly Gonzalez, Elvis didn't get to pick her mode of death. She didn't get to pick whether she lived or died. Neither did Maddie, neither did Ethan, neither did Zanna. They had no choice in what was done to them. What led you, Representative Skogg, to push what was then House Bill 186? I started that bill having no focus on the Gonsalves and other victims simply because we were having so much difficulty getting executions to take place. We had one failed execution through lethal injection because they couldn't find a vein, supposedly. So firing squad is certain, it's humane and it's the best way to get the job done, it starts like any other night. The glass of red, the cozy blanket. Then the drop. The stain so dark, so stubborn it might as well have been a crime scene. But this isn't your average couch. This is Anna Bay. Fully washable, unspeakably comfortable and ready for whatever your life, your kids or your ex throws ahead it. And here's the kicker. Starting at just 699, you can make sure your sofa isn't part of the problem. Fully washable, stain resistant and built to hide even the darkest defenses. Right now get up to 60% off with their early access Black Friday sale because no one should have to look live with a stain that won't quit. Anna Bay. The only mystery you won't be losing sleep over shop washablesofas.com today that's washablesofas.com every now and then I rinse it out and I need tummy rins tonight and I need it more. The le I don't know what to do. I'm always in the dark. The sweat and dead smells like a dark downy rinse fights stubborn odors in just one wash. When impossible odors get stuck in it out. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Bruce Are you telling me a convicted killer did not get the needle because they couldn't find a vein? It happened to a mass murderer that's been on death row for about 40 years. We finally get him on the table. It was not done and we, we will get this done through firing squad. It takes away a lot of the appeals. Some of the ridiculous appeals we see in the courts are that condemned saying, well, my medication will cause a pain with the allergic reaction. Oh my stars. Wait a minute. Well, I've got to write this down. My medicine, my medication will cause an allergic reaction to the needle. The pentobaratol that we would inject and it would cause unnecessary pain. That's been a lot of the appeals. So we just wiped out a lot of the appeals in process by implementing the fire as well. The families were told this is the deal. Like it or lump it, it was force fed, shoved down their throats. And as a crime victim myself, I don't like that they didn't go along with this. In retrospect, some say, yeah, okay, it's fine. But why would you hoodwink the victim's family? I don't like it. Why is he still there if that's what happened? Anne's Grace I'm not privy to those inside conversations, but I would repeat the words of the father of Ms. Gonzalez about a deal was done with the death. What led you to push this legislation? Justice. And the frustration with the appeals process on penobarbital or lethal injection, the ridiculous appeals. And we did eliminate a lot of those appeal arguments by bringing the death penalty by firing squad. And firing squad, even according to Justice Sotomayor, is the most humane death penalty process. It's quick, it's certain. We have experts from different universities who say so, and I think it's the humane way to go for all involved. Why do you think firing squad is more humane than the needle? Sometimes I think it's about 7% of the needle injections do go awry and cause a lot of pain and they don't go, well. Firing squad. There's, according to Experts, up to 10 seconds of real pain, but then it's over. The heart stops instantly and it's done. The victims don't have to go through what the victims of the case I told you about in Idaho of a failed procedure. You believe that the death by firing squad can and will be implemented remotely. How does that work? We leave it up to the director of the Department of Corrections on how they want to proceed. So the plan is to have a number of rifles. I don't know if it's. I think it's three. There'll be a remote button someone pushes and the firearms go off and. And do the execution. However, I have confirmed that we have a backup firing squad, old school of re riflemen who will be prepared and ready to go if there's somehow a failure of the mechanism. Is it true, Representative Scogg, that when you use the actual firing squad, the human firing squad that one member of the squad has, has an empty chamber? That is up to the Department of Corrections how they want to handle that. I know that has been done, I think, in Utah, and it may well be done here so that no one can say for certain it was their bullet. I suppose so. I guess a mechanized. Go ahead. We have no short shortage of volunteers. Okay, that's good to know. And I imagine they're lining up. I started to say that with the new MO Method of operation of mechanized and automated controlled remote firing squad, nobody has to feel guilty. But then I guess you're going to ask who pushed the button. What are we going to have to have three buttons and one doesn't work? I mean, you said that there's no lack of volunteers. Correct. I get phone calls and emails regularly. We had one person send an email to the legislature en masse. Saying you should all be the ones to pull the trigger. Well, there are several members of our House of Representatives who are willing to pull the trigger if they needed to. You state that the purpose of your legislation, at least one of the purposes, is to make sure the state of Idaho can carry out the DP timely in a timely fashion and humanely. You've explained the humanely portion of that analysis. What about the timely consideration? Justice delayed is justice denied and that that's the truth. And we've been battling the 9th Circuit forever, but now things are starting to change to where we have the right attorney general, the right governor, the right legislature, we have the right court and our Supreme Court right prosecutors. Now I think we're going to get this done. I think it's time justice is going to come around. I'm sure the families want to know the truth regardless of the verdict. Regardless, I want to know the truth. That is the point of the jury system, to seek a verdict that speaks the truth, regardless if it's guilty, not guilty, split verdict, hung jury, doesn't matter matter. The truth comes out in the courtroom. Why were you disappointed this case did not go to trial? I was personally disappointed because I wanted to see this man executed for the horrendous crimes that he committed. And that did not happen. It was not given the opportunity for a jury to decide. And I know the jury decides whether or not to implement the death penalty. And as you say, truth and evidence would come out after a conviction about his history, about his motives, about what really happened to those victims on that horrendous night. And I wanted to see that all come out. And I think any jury in Idaho would have given him the death penalty. With me is Representative Bruce Skogg, joining us from the Idaho House of Representatives. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. And I will be over shortly to seize that unauthorized weapon you've got hanging on the wall behind you. Thank you. Rep. Thank you so much. Take care, friend. Bye. We are speaking one on one with Christy and Steve Gonsalves. Christy, isn't it true you basically got an email saying, hey, we got a deal? Yes. On a Sunday, Sunday afternoon. They sent it at 4:53pm we happen to be Steve happened to be checking his email a little later around six or so, and he said, what? And we lost our minds. We immediately emailed them and said we need to talk, like now. Like what? Has this been sent yet? Have you offered it yet? What is going on? They sent us an email the next morning and Said, we can meet at 3 today. And we said, you didn't answer. Has this been sent already? And they said, yes, it was sent yesterday evening to the defense. So we met with them at three that day on Monday and the plea had already been accepted. And we lost our minds. We were in that meeting. I mean, we were screaming, we were cussing, we were yelling, we were saying, why did you do this? How did you do this? You know what happened? You just talked to us on Friday and told us that, you know, you had every anticipation of taking this all the way. We talked about court. I mean, we talked about a plea deal for like a, like a second. And he just said, oh, I think that they might be wanting one, but we have no reason to give them one. You know, why would we? And we're like, yeah, right, why would we? And he said, well, how do you guys feel about a plea deal? And we're like, no, no, absolutely not. No, no, no, no, no. Boom. Moved on. Yeah. He accepted the plea deal within the same hour that he got it. This man never wanted to fight for our children, Literally. I mean it. They fought for their lives, for their very last breath. And this man had no fighting. They fought hard all the way to the end. And he gave up within an hour of being given an opportunity to quit on these kids. And that, that, that's the kind of prosecutor that you gotta get, you got, you gotta get him out, you get, you gotta get real prosecutors in Idaho. We got some jobs to do. We, we got some work to do there. We remember an American hero. Deputy Sheriff Joshua Welge, Sarasota County Sheriff killed in the line of duty after 22 years serving and protecting. Leaving behind a devastated wife, Brandy and three children. American hero Deputy Sheriff Joshua Welch, Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye friend. Let's be real. Life happens. Kids spill, pets shed and accidents are inevitable. That's why you need a washable sofa that can keep up. Our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out, so you can say goodbye to stains and hello to work. Free living. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, they're kid proof, pet friendly and built for everyday life. Plus, changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want. Need flexibility. Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space, whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment. Plus they're earth friendly and trusted by over 200,000 happy customers. Get early access to Black Friday pricing starting at just $699. It's time to upgrade to a stress free mess proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save that's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply. Every now and then I rinse it out and I need tummy rinse tonight. My kid wears the bed and the smell never leaves. I don't know what to do. I'm always in the dark. The sweat and dead short smells like a dark downy rinse fights stubborn odors in just one wash. When impossible odors get stuck in. This is an I Heart podcast.