KOHBERGER'S CASUAL CONVO W/ CLERK ON MURDERS HE COMMITTED

Summary

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: KOHBERGER'S CASUAL CONVO W/ CLERK ON MURDERS HE COMMITTED

Date: March 31, 2026
Host: Nancy Grace
Guests: Dr. Bethany Marshall (psychoanalyst), Joseph Scott Morgan (forensic expert), Hermania Rodriguez Palayo (investigative journalist), Philip Dube (trial lawyer)

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Episode Overview

This episode exposes chilling footage of Bryan Kohberger, the accused Idaho killer, engaging in a shockingly casual and lighthearted conversation with a DMV clerk just hours after the brutal murders of four university students. Nancy Grace and her guests break down the nonverbal cues, psychological dynamics, and investigative fallout of Kohberger's post-murder behavior, and critically examine the prosecution's handling of crucial evidence.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Kohberger’s Behavior at the DMV: Chilling Normalcy

• Nancy Grace describes the “casual” DMV footage, noting Kohberger’s detached demeanor and focus on mundane tasks like changing his car registration just after committing the murders.
  • "He's wearing, it looks like black plastic gloves. Does nobody notice that? Look at this guy. What? Black plastic gloves inside." — Nancy Grace [03:06]
• The panel witnesses Kohberger's almost friendly banter with the DMV clerk, discussing car models, sports teams, and local geography, with no outward sign of guilt or distress.
  • Segment: DMV exchange [04:25–05:55, 17:11–18:43, 34:28–34:57, 43:36–44:43]

2. Psychological Breakdown: The Mask of Sanity

• Dr. Bethany Marshall analyzes Kohberger’s psyche:
  • Describes his “paranoid” post-crime searches and links his behavior to psychopathy—fascinated by his own crime and seeking validation from strangers.
    • "On the other hand, after the crime, there were many, many searches about the Moscow murders. So he was fascinated in reliving... I think at this point in the dmv, he felt it was a safe environment." — Dr. Bethany Marshall [05:57]
  • Asserts that his grandiosity and self-focus come through:
    • "He loves himself. He's only attached to himself. And anybody who will give him attention, he'll suck up the time. ... He might have even been aroused or sexually excited while he was talking about it." — Dr. Bethany Marshall [07:20]
  • Explains the shift when murders are referenced:
    • "Sociopaths wear what I've called so many times the mask of sanity... they can act and pass as normal in society." — Dr. Bethany Marshall [36:02]

3. Forensic and Investigative Angles

• Joe Scott Morgan underscores the importance of circumstantial timing—Kohberger changing plates days after the murders to potentially throw off investigators.
  • "That car that he left the scene in, it's right outside that door, Nancy... I'm thinking about what's the status of the interior of this car right now as it's right outside that door." — Joe Scott Morgan [09:42]
• Discusses the possibility of physical evidence disposal and the role of surveillance footage:
  • "What happened to all of the stuff? What happened to all of these potential items, particularly from a DNA standpoint...? They've got CCTV everywhere, okay? You're always being watched." — Joe Scott Morgan [12:09]
• Reflects on the disconnect between Kohberger’s DMV conversation and the ongoing crime scene investigation.
  • "There he is in all of his glory on CCTV, acting like he’s just, you know, showing up, you know, to change out his tags. And yeah, you can see that she grabs his attention as soon as the Moscow crimes come up. At that moment, Tom. And again, that adds another level of chill to this." — Joe Scott Morgan [39:30]

4. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nancy Grace’s Reaction to Kohberger’s Composure:
  • "There is Brian Kohberger with blood probably still under his fingernails, talking about, are you a Giants fan?" [18:43]
• On Prosecutor’s Decision:
  • “You’re hearing Dr. Bethany and hermania Rodriguez and Joseph Scott Morgan describing coulda, woulda, shoulda, all the evidence the prosecutor had to get the death penalty, but no, a weak plea.” — Nancy Grace [16:28]
• On the Difficulty of Recognizing Killers Among Us:
  • "Have you ever known somebody was guilty and you look back and they're sitting across the table talking to you about sports and food and restaurants and activities and hobbies and they're a stone cold killer? It's really hard to reconcile that." — Nancy Grace [19:58]
  • "Because the thing about it is he can slip in and out of this world that we exist in, even after having participated in this kind of event." — Joe Scott Morgan [25:50]

5. The "Mask Slips": Nonverbal Cues & Silence

• The clerk, in casual conversation, mentions the "little Moscow thing" (the murders), making the area feel "less safe."
  • "[DMV Clerk:] and I went, but the little Moscow thing kind of makes it feel a little less safe. [Kohberger:] (silence, clams up)" [34:53–35:20]
• Hermania Rodriguez Palayo: "It's so creepy and shocking... the moment she mentions the murders, Bryan Coburger's mask sort of slips and he's all of a sudden not so talkative..." [35:20]
• Dr. Bethany Marshall: "He immediately switches the conversation to, I think, the weather." [35:51]

6. Legal Strategies & Trial Insights

• Nancy Grace and Philip Dube debate whether the DMV video would (or should) be shown to a jury, considering its impact on perceptions of Kohberger's guilt and duplicity.
  • "The defense would try to stop it at trial, claiming it was irrelevant... But the prosecutor would rage... This would have been allowed at trial. This would be in front of the jury." — Nancy Grace [31:55]
  • "I don't have a problem with them seeing it. You got to remember the time of year. When was this? December. It's probably colder than an arctic outhouse there..." — Philip Dube [37:51]

7. The Victims & Fallout

• Contrasts between Kohberger’s “normalcy” and the horror at the crime scene are emphasized with 911 and police audio about the discovery, condition, and removal of the victims.
  • "All four victims are on their way to the funeral home... then I saw my pastor write Bernstein Funeral Home. I can remember that like it just happened." — Nancy Grace [46:27, 51:09]
• Emotional impact and trauma are addressed by both Nancy Grace (referencing her own loss) and Dr. Bethany Marshall.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Nancy Grace on Kohberger's demeanor:
  • "He’s in a government office. Is he worried he’s going to be apprehended somehow? ... Look at this guy. What? Black plastic gloves inside." [03:06]
• Dr. Bethany Marshall on psychopathy:
  • "He loved himself. ... He might have even been aroused or sexually excited while he was talking about it. Since I believe it was a sexually motivated crime, it could have been almost like a masturbatory experience, like going over the details." [07:20]
• Joe Scott Morgan on forensic implications:
  • "I want to know had he already begun to clean this thing up, you know, early on I'd said that this car was going to be a rolling crime scene. ... Can you imagine him actually taking bags after he's cleaned and putting them in the car and then he's going to convey them somewhere else?" [09:42, 12:09]
• Hermania Rodriguez Palayo on the timing of switching plates:
  • "He actually had very convenient timing, Bryan Coburger, because within days of the murder, both his actual license was also expiring and his registration. ... that's part of what ... he did to cover his tracks as well as wearing those bulky gloves wherever he went." [08:44]
• Nancy Grace on the “mask slipping” moment:
  • "She says...I would say safe, but the whole Moscow thing kind of makes it feel a little less safe. And at that point ... he clams up, he doesn’t say anything, he just stands there, goes quiet. Did you notice that?" [34:57]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Kohberger’s DMV Conversation (casual banter):
  [04:25–05:55], [17:11–18:43], [34:28–34:57], [43:36–44:43]
• Analysis of Body Language and Masking:
  [03:06], [07:16–08:07], [36:02–37:35]
• Panel Discussion on Mask Slipping and Nonverbal Communication:
  [34:57–37:35]
• Forensics: Car Evidence, Timeline, Camera Surveillance:
  [09:11–13:23]
• Emotional Impact: The Victims, Scene, Families:
  [46:21–53:17]
• Notable 911 and police bodycam audio:
  [31:03–31:43], [46:27–47:59]

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Tone & Language

• The episode’s tone is intense, direct, and critical—especially toward Kohberger, the prosecutor’s choices, and the chilling contrast between mundane behavior and horrific criminal actions.
• Nancy Grace adopts a prosecutorial, impassioned stance, pressing her expert guests for raw, psychological, and legal truth.
• The language is explicit in terms of describing the crime scene and addressing the reality of psychopathy; guests mirror this tone, offering clinical and investigative perspectives.

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Conclusion

Nancy Grace and her panel offer a disturbing yet essential exploration of how criminals like Bryan Kohberger can present a chilling mask of normalcy, even in the immediate aftermath of brutality. The DMV video footage, psychological insights, and legal analysis highlight the dangers such behavior poses, while also underscoring the importance of relentless investigation and judicial courage. The episode closes with a somber reflection on the long-term pain for the victims' families—a reminder that, beneath the sensational headlines, real human tragedies endure.

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"To the Moscow victims, rest in peace and to their families. Godspeed to you. You are still in. So many prayers." — Nancy Grace [53:17]

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

Grace busted Brian Kohberger's casual casual conversation with a clerk caught on camera a conversation about the murders he just committed. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[DMV Clerk]

How's it going?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Pretty good.

[Brian Kohberger]

I definitely need to get my license. License.

[911 Caller]

We woke up this morning, no one was waking up at all. Like, no one was answering, which was really weird.

[DMV Clerk]

I would say safe, but the opposite thing kind of would be a little less than

[Nancy Grace]

Brian Coburger caught on camera. Busted. Having a very, very lighthearted and casual conversation with the DMV clerk, including about the murders he just committed. I noticed so much nonverbal communication, which I would love to point out to a jury, but the prosecutor in that jurisdiction was too weak, spineless, gutless, to take this thing to trial so he could finally hear the facts and the families can know the truth, even if it's a terrible truth. The truth about what happened to their children. I notice that as he's talking, he's like, looking. Who does that? Why is he doing that? Obviously he's looking around to see if anybody's noticed him. He's in a government office. Is he worried he's going to be apprehended somehow? He's looking around. He's wearing, it looks like black plastic gloves. Does nobody notice that? Look at this guy. What? Black plastic gloves inside. Anyway, there's so much more, but let's just get right down to it. Let's watch Bryan Kohberger and his casual convo, including about the murders he just committed.

[DMV Clerk]

Hello.

[Brian Kohberger]

Hi.

[DMV Clerk]

How's it going? Pretty good.

[Brian Kohberger]

I definitely need to get my license plate changed.

[DMV Clerk]

Okay, we should be able to help with that.

[Brian Kohberger]

Do I need proof of insurance?

[DMV Clerk]

No. I mean, you have to have it in Washington state, but you don't have to prove it with us. I do need to know the exact miles that are on your car right now.

[Brian Kohberger]

Let me check that.

[DMV Clerk]

Okay, perfect.

[Brian Kohberger]

About 115.

[DMV Clerk]

Oh, okay. So you just have to write that exact mileage right here with no.

[911 Dispatcher]

10.

[DMV Clerk]

Check the box that says actual, put today's date, and then you'll sign, print, and your street address on the bottom line there.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, when I have told a lie, typically to my husband, I get hot all over. I feel bad. I almost always go back and correct it and tell the truth. Unless it's something like, no, I'm too short, I can't see your bald spot. Just. I can't take it. Do you see this guy? Straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall. Joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction, the author of Deal Breaker. You can see her on Bravo and on Peacock, and you can find her at drbathanymarshall.com Dr. Bethany. I get hot all over, and I imagine I turn red, and I can't live with the telling of the lie. It eats me up. Do you see this guy?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

I do, Nancy. And what's interesting is a lot of the searches on his phone were under psychopathic paranoia, which suggests that there was a part of his personality that was quite paranoid about getting caught. On the other hand, after the crime, there were many, many searches about the Moscow murders. So he was fascinated in reliving. I think at this point in the dmv, he felt it was a safe environment. There's no police around. He chatted for 13 minutes with this woman. And I think, Nancy, that he was reliving the glory of the crime. He's proud of himself. Again, if you think about what's on that phone that was forensically searched, there was a lot of flexing of muscles, a lot of preoccupation. He loved himself. He loved looking in the mirror and finding somebody at the DMV who would listen to him. I think that put him in a good place.

[Nancy Grace]

Bethany, do you see what you just did? Look at your monitor. You say the word muscles, and the control room can't wait to show Brian Kohberger without his shirt on. I've seen that enough, thank you. Take. Please take that down. Okay, what, if anything, does that mean? And how are you can still there? What does that have to do with what we're looking at today?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

What it means that he's.

[Nancy Grace]

Why are you talking about him flexing muscles?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Because he's preoccupied with himself. He loves himself. He's only attached to himself. And anybody who will give him attention, he'll suck up the time. There's probably people behind him at the DMV waiting. And he talks for 13 minutes, Nancy. He loves himself, and he loves what he did, and he wants to talk about it. He might have even been aroused or sexually excited while he was talking about it. Since I believe it was a sexually motivated crime, it could have been almost like a masturbatory experience, like going over the details. He might also have been trying to convince himself that nobody really knew that he was a perpetrator. So trying to get clues from the clerk about what she might have read or what people. You know, word on the street was, so to speak, you know, that's very

[Nancy Grace]

insightful, because I've seen a lot of killers before, they're caught asking, hey, what do you think? What do you think about that? Have you heard about this? Have you heard about that? And they. They seem to relish of it and go so far as to say it's a masturbatory endeavor. But I would say that they enjoy reliving it. And you may be right. I just don't want to think about Bryan Kohberger's nether parts right now. But straight out to Hermania Rodriguez Palayo, investigative journalist, joining us tonight. Hermania, thank you for being with us. Why is he getting his tag changed out?

[Hermania Rodriguez Palayo]

He actually had very convenient timing, Bryan Coburger, because within days of the murder, both his actual license was also expiring and his registration. So he went in there and did it all together and switched his plate from a Pennsylvania one, which was the one he had on when he committed the murders, to a Washington state one. And that's part of what we by now he did to cover his tracks as well as wearing those bulky gloves wherever he went.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit new podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, thanks for being with us tonight. Joe Scott, Timing, timing, timing, timing. Is everything changing out his tag? Wow. And just in case someone got the tag the night of the murders, he's there bright and early getting rid of that tag.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, he is. And again, going to Hermione's comment, it is a matter of convenience, right. You know, how much more time did he have in order to do this and why hadn't he done it in days prior to that? And so from a circumstantial standpoint, you begin to think about, I wonder what his under underlying rationale was for doing this. And of course, we'll never really know, but he shows up and it is very, very convenient for him to do this. Also, you know, he, he's emboldened in order to do this to walk in and hey, that car that he left the scene in, it's right outside that door, Nancy. Right outside that door. You know what I'm thinking about right now? I'm thinking about what's the status of the interior of this car right now as it's right outside that door. I want to know had he already begun to clean this thing up, you know, early on I'd said that this car was going to be a rolling crime scene. And he held onto that car for a protracted period of time because he was never caught up to, you know, had he begun to clean that car. Here he is walking from the outside in and he's looking back over his shoulder, you know, now he's going to change the plates out and somehow that's going to put people off at that point in time, put them off the scent, potentially. Every little thing that he can do. Did he still have the knife at this point, Nancy? Is it out in the car? I don't know.

[Nancy Grace]

You're seeing shots now. Please keep playing them. Brian Kohberger's white Elantra the night of the murders. And you know, another thing, you know, I just want to keep looking at this video. Another thing, Joe. Scott Morgan. When I visited his apartment In Pullman, about 11 minutes away from the murder scene, I looked for cameras, cameras in his parking lot there where he lived. I would love to find out if those cameras caught him cleaning out his car the way that he was caught under surveillance, not by cameras, but by actual le. Law enforcement cleaning out his car, just in a weird way, cleaning it and cleaning it and cleaning it obsessively outside his parents home in the Poconos. I guarantee you he did the same thing there in Pullman outside his apartment. And he has a big parking. There's a big parking lot outside his apartment, a communal parking lot.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

And I guarantee you there are witnesses to him cleaning out his car.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, I'm thinking about the silent witness. You talked about the CCTV potential here, Nancy. Can you imagine if he is seen, if they have video capture? Can you imagine him actually taking bags after he's cleaned and putting them in the car and then he's going to convey them somewhere else? You know, one of the big questions is what happened to all of the stuff? What happened to all of these potential items, particularly from a DNA standpoint, from a blood evidence standpoint that could tie him back to this particular savage massacre. Had they been dumped off in some dumpster that's far away from the apartment complex? Did he take that much care? And here's something else. You know, I work at a university, Nancy. It's like a little city, okay? It's vast. You've got dumpsters all over the place. What if you went back onto campus there in Pullman and just started throwing stuff away in the random dumpsters? No one is going to be any the wiser. However, I can tell you this about universities. They've got CCTV everywhere, okay? It's. You're always being watched. And I really wonder if there's any video captures there from the university parking lot going to dumpsters and putting stuff in the dumpsters there. At Washington State,

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[Nancy Grace]

stories with Nancy Grace Guys Busted. Caught on video. You're hearing Dr. Bethany and hermania Rodriguez and Joseph Scott Morgan describing coulda, woulda, shoulda, all the evidence the prosecutor had to get the death penalty, but no, a weak plea. I would venture to guess that that prosecutor is the weak link in the judicial system, in the justice system. That said, wait till you hear the rest of his very casual conversation with the DMV clerk, including about the murders he just committed.

[DMV Clerk]

What color is the vehicle?

[Brian Kohberger]

White.

[DMV Clerk]

And we have to know the truth still limited the SE or the sport. Was that the better package? Yeah. Do they not have that one?

[Brian Kohberger]

I couldn't find it.

[DMV Clerk]

Thank you. Oh, okay. Yeah, I've known a couple people that have like, ordered the car they wanted and had to wait a year for it to be delivered because they just didn't have it until a year later.

[Brian Kohberger]

Yeah, Sports versions.

[DMV Clerk]

Yeah, those are the most popular. They're going so fast.

[Brian Kohberger]

Yeah, absolutely. Are you a Giants fan?

[DMV Clerk]

I am. I'm from the Bay Area.

[Brian Kohberger]

From the Bay Area?

[DMV Clerk]

Yeah. I'm hoping.

[Brian Kohberger]

I'm actually from the East Coast.

[DMV Clerk]

Oh, okay.

[Brian Kohberger]

Hoping you guys don't get judged.

[DMV Clerk]

I'm hoping we do. So you're from New York. How you liking it over here?

[Brian Kohberger]

Actually from Pennsylvania.

[DMV Clerk]

Oh, you're from Pennsylvania. Oh, yeah. And then you were.

[Brian Kohberger]

Yeah. Family's from Brooklyn.

[DMV Clerk]

Brooklyn. Oh, okay. So that's how you. Yeah, okay. That's fair. Yeah. I mean, going up to the Bay Area, my grandma and my dad were here. Huge Giants fan. So, like, just falling in the family line.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm just I don't even know what to say. There is Brian Kohberger with blood probably still under his fingernails, talking about, are you a Giants fan? You know? To Philip Dube joining us, veteran trial lawyer, has tried a lot of cases, Louisiana county public defender's office. And you know what? The public defender's office gets a lot of grief because people think they're free. They get paid by the government. They try more cases than practically any other defense attorney. They take all they have to take all the cases nobody else wants. In other words, they get a lot of trial experience just like prosecutors do. You can't turn it down. It's yours whether you want it or not. That said, Dubay, I'm not asking you to reveal any client confidence. Of course, I wouldn't even waste my breath on that. But in all of your years in court, have you ever known somebody was guilty and you look back and they're sitting across the table talking to you about sports and food and restaurants and activities and hobbies and they're a stone cold killer? It's really hard to reconcile that.

[Philip Dube]

Not for me, because I look at it from a legal standpoint. I don't sit there and stand in judgment of my client. It's almost like a doctor in the ER or in the the ICU at a hospital who has to treat a gang banger who just sprayed up a neighborhood and he got shot back and now he's in the hospital. The doctors still have a Hippocratic oath to first do no harm and save the young man's life. Well, that's what we do in a legal context. We don't stand in judgment of our clients and we do whatever we can to protect their legal interests. I don't have to like them.

[Nancy Grace]

Did I ask you if you judge them? Did I? No, I did not ask you if you judge them. I don't judge my witnesses. They are what they are. I take them as they come. I asked you, did it ever dawn on you when you're having a casual convo with a stone cold killer that is kind of weird? That never hit you?

[Philip Dube]

Not really. Maybe in the first 10 years.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, cut his mic right now because that's total BS lie. Dr. Bethany. He would have to be. Dube would have to be. Have to have the emotions of, like a frog. You ever held a frog? Probably not. Have you ever held a frog and it looks at you and it blinks and it has no emotion? It's cold blooded, right? It feels nothing. That was bs. Any thinking person would get Skeeved out. And I know that's not one of your psychological terms when you know you've been sitting there talking to a Stone Cold killer. I don't mean a person that gets angry in the heat of the moment, pulls the trigger. That's bad enough. But I mean, Stone Cold sets out to murder somebody, and in this case, for no reason, no anger, no revenge, no sex motive, no theft motive. Not that that murder is any less horrible. But my point is carrying on a conversation, a normal conversation, and the whole time, this guy could just reach over with a strap razor and slit your throat and he'd be fine with it.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

I do wonder, Nancy, when I see patients like that where I know they've committed a crime. Or worse yet, they've come to therapy to actually gain some help in concealing the crime. Or they're paranoid because they're about to be caught. I do have that even in my Beverly Hills office. And what's interesting is that their presentation is so smooth on the surface, and yet I know and they know I know something is going on. But furthermore, when you look at Coburger's affect, his emotions, the way he's talking to this woman, he is a really strange, strange guy. There's no picture I've ever seen of him where he looks normal. And anybody sitting in front of him is going to have to wonder what the heck is going on. But, Nancy, there's something more. The digital evidence. The investigators that went through his phone determined that he was quite obsessive and he had no friends other than his parents. So I believe that he's flirting with, with this woman at the dmv because that's the only person he can kind of lock down into a conversation. Because it's the dmv, right? I mean, they're there to serve their customers. Nancy, did you know he called his mother at five o' clock every single morning? Then he called his parents again to fall asleep. He almost stalked and pestered his parents. He would. He would text his mother saying, five o', clock, question Mark Twain. She would text back, five thirty, exclamation mark, exclamation mark. Like, don't call me so early in the morning. So he, you know, since they were his only relationships, can you imagine? He has this 13 minutes with this woman at the DMV. She's not sitting in a bar with a drink. She knows she's safe. She knows she's behind the counter. So she's talking sports. And that's probably a very new experience for him. Given the fact that he probably creeped women out everywhere he went.

[Nancy Grace]

Jo Scott Morgan. Why will nobody answer my question?

[Jacob Goldstein]

Why?

[Nancy Grace]

I don't get it. It's a simple question. Now I'm gonna try with you. Pretty soon I'll be going to Hermania Rodriguez. She's a reporter and may not have had this experience, but I think you have. Have you ever sat down with a stone cold killer and in retrospect looked back and went, he could have just slit my throat? I thought about it. I don't think about it in the moment. Like when I'm tromping through a housing project trying to find a witness, when I'm sitting across the table from a killer and we're talking about him rolling over on his co defendant, killer. It's later that I let. I'm in the moment and I can't afford to think about anything other than what I'm doing. But later, if you allow yourself to think, think about it. How can someone be apparently so normal, yet we know what he just did. We know what he just did. I mean, is nobody remembering what happened to Kelly? Kelly Gonzalez? He hit her so hard and beat her so hard and knocked her teeth out. Just stabbing her in the face. Face in the face. In the face. The same thing to Maddie. Just horrible, horrible desecration of their bodies and their beauty. Not happy until the place was covered in blood. And here he is chatting up at dmv. Are you a Giants fan? My rear end.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

That's the, that's the brutality of it. Because the thing about it is he can slip in and out of this world that we, that we exist in, even after having participated in this kind of event. And yeah, in answer to your question, when, as an investigator, when you're talking to somebody, you're in that moment, you're trying to elicit information from them. And I've had those moments, Nancy, where I go to a very dark place afterwards when I have time to think about who I was just indwelling the same space with who I was just breathing the same oxygen. And I think about what kind of horror that they have just committed, maybe multiple times, over and over again, but yet I'm trying to get information out of them. And so, yeah, it's a really dark place to go to. But you see this kind of psychopathy with him. And again, I'm getting into Dr. Bethany's space. I apologize for that. But you have to admit, when you see these images from the scene, Nancy, and I know you have as well as I have as well. This place is blood saturated and this kind of drives home the point of what an animalistic event this was at the scene and that he can flip this switch turning on and off and you know, he's got that kind of, I don't know, it looks like. Do you remember back in the 60s when they had the, the chimpanzees that would smile blankly? You know, they had those, that chimpanzee smile, that's what he looks at. Like, you know, the dead eyes, kind of the fake smile looking back and forth. And I think that that might be what Dr. Bethany's talking about where it's just very, very dark. There's a disconnect here where he has no remorse whatsoever. He has no, certainly had no compassion at that moment in time. And here we are dangling in the wind all of this time later they caught this plea on this guy and he never allocated to anything.

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[911 Dispatcher]

Tell me exactly what's going on. One of our One of the roommates has passed out and she was drunk last night and she don't wake me up. Okay? Oh, and they saw some men in their house and Are you with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep the phone. Stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened? Pretty much what is Going on currently. Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much at 4am Okay. I need to know what's going on right now. If someone has passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on. You gotta go check. But we have to.

[Police Officer]

One of the gals yelling something. There's somebody in the house.

[Nancy Grace]

We can only wonder how a jury would have reacted seeing this video. Now, the defense would try to stop it at trial, claiming it was irrelevant. Which is one of the weakest objections you can raise at trial. Why? Because it doesn't hold anything on appeal. What do I mean by that? If you make an objection at trial and you say, objection, irrelevant, you're not preserving anything for appellate review. That does not qualify as an appealable error. You have to say something like objection, inflammatory objection. Hearsay objection. It's not the highest and best evidence. You have to have a real foundation, not just interrupting the other lawyer's flow of questioning. When somebody. When a defense attorney or prosecutor. Objection. Irrelevant. It's usually overruled once in a while. You might. You might get a sustain. But the defense would try to stop this as being irrelevant because they don't want the jury to see his cold and duplicitous really nature. That he can be a killer and act like a normal guy like nothing ever happened. Which totally would freak the jury out. But the prosecutor would rage one day, respond that the jury can consider evidence before, during and after the crime. So this would have been allowed at trial. This would be in front of the jury. And I'm very curious to know what you think as you are watching Brian Kohberger, a stone cold killer of defenseless coeds, half asleep with a knife. A K bar. Just imagine him going from room to room slaughtering. Slaughtering those four students and liking it. Then turning up at the DMV to get a new license and a new tag and carrying on completely normal conversation. You hear the word, the phraseology, the description, Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde a lot. This is him. Let's watch.

[DMV Clerk]

Or are you. I am. I am originally from the Bay Area. Yeah.

[Brian Kohberger]

Yeah. You're Andrew. Okay.

[DMV Clerk]

Okay. I like living up here much better than I don't. You happen to have the purchase order for when you bought it?

[Brian Kohberger]

It's definitely a big difference.

[DMV Clerk]

Yeah. Huge difference. Right. Because when I first I like how we're considered old white. And I went, but the little Moscow thing kind of makes it feel a little less safe. Yep.

[Nancy Grace]

She says, I like how small, quiet and I would say safe, but the whole Moscow thing kind of makes it feel a little less safe. And at that point, Hermania Rodriguez Palayo, investigative journalist, he clams up, he doesn't say anything, he just stands there, goes quiet. Did you notice that?

[Hermania Rodriguez Palayo]

It's so creepy and shocking, considering how he was acting just seconds before one could even argue. They were a little bit of flirting, just talking about sports, how nice the area is until that moment. And it's truly chilling because the moment she mentions the murders, Bryan Coburger's mask sort of slips and he's all of a sudden not so talkative and just given one word answers. It's, it's really fascinating to watch that mask fall off.

[Nancy Grace]

And that, Dr. Bethany Marshall, is what we mean by non verbal communication. He immediately switches the conversation to, I think, the weather.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Yes, Nancy, sociopaths wear what I've called so many times the mask of sanity. It's not my term, it's a research term. And that means that they can act and pass as normal in society, even though there's so much going on underneath the surface. And in fact, fact, with Coburger, one of the things we know was going on beneath the surface was that most of the searches on his phone were for non consexual sex pornography. There was no search for normal pornography. It was all non consensual, whatever that means. So, so he's in this situation where the mask starts to slip just a little bit because she brought it up, and he clams up. I think he's thinking, you know, he's an obsessive guy. He's probably going through his mind wondering what she knows, what everybody El knows. And also he doesn't have the power in that situation. Have you ever been to the tmv? They have the power. You don't have the power. So he's in a situation where he has to, like, play nice, follow the rules, get his tags. He can't intimidate, threaten, or stand over her like he did all the university students when he was a teacher's aide. Right. Or the women at the bars where he was so creepy and standing over them that the bartenders and the bar owners had to ask him to leave. No, this is the dmv. He has to act and pass as normal. But even there, Nancy, it's hard for him to do that. That's what we see when he clams up. And of course, the big tell is the big rubber gloves.

[Nancy Grace]

I was just looking at everyone else there. Nobody else is wearing gloves. So to You, Philip Dube, veteran trial lawyer, joining us out of the LA jurisdiction. Philip, how would you keep the jury from seeing this video?

[Philip Dube]

To be honest with you, I don't have a problem with them seeing it. You got to remember the time of year. When was this? December. It's probably colder than an arctic outhouse there. And the man can put some gloves on to keep warm. He's just coming in from the outdoors. So people who are working there behind the counter probably have a space heater and some warmth going on. So I think that would be unfair to judge him based on that. Now, when she does bring up the Moscow Four murder, he, he does get a little skittish. He starts shifting his weight around, he goes from one foot to the next, and he's looking a little paranoid, obsessive, and frankly a little scared. But he manages to still engage in the pleasantries and the small talk to throw anybody and everybody off the scent. So I don't find anything unusual about this. And moreover, one final point. Remember, he is a non resident of Washington. So they have what's called the 30 and 183 day rule, meaning that he's got to get his tags and his plates current within the 30 day and 183 day period, especially if he has a job. Otherwise he can be cited and fined and maybe even do some jail time and have his car impounded and stored.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, thank you for the dissertation on the traffic law to Joe Scott Morgan. So to hear Dubai tell it, he's absolutely fine. If his client is having a convo and it's caught on tape and the woman says, I'm really scared of the, you know, after the Moscow murder, the Moscow murders. And their client goes, isn't the weather awesome? I love the sun. How do you feel about the sun? That doesn't bother you?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Of course it would. Particularly now in hindsight, knowing what we know from this perspective, what had just occurred, just, you know, well, let's break it down. Within hours of preceding him walking into this place, you know, they're still out at the scene at this point, Nancy. I think that that's very important here because we're focused on him and I know that we have the videography of him there. But let's think about this just for a moment. They're still out there, Nancy. They're still out there working that scene at that particular time. The bodies have not necessarily been sent to families at this point in time, but yet there he is in all of his glory on cctv. You know, people are still scratching their heads over this thing. At this point in time. You remember what it was like during that period of time. We were thinking, you know, is this beast walking up and down the street? Who is this individual? And there he is, there he is in full and living color on cctv, acting like he's just, you know, showing up, you know, to change out his tags. And yeah, you can see that she grabs his attention as soon as the Moscow crimes come up. At that moment, Tom. And again, that adds another level of chill to this.

[DMV Clerk]

Nancy, you're going to the university. Oh, nice.

[Brian Kohberger]

Definitely not an undergrad.

[DMV Clerk]

Did you give the title? Did you sign the title? Now you want to do a record sale. It is very impressive. You know, I always knew it was like a really big university, you know, but it's surprising to hear that many people in a class. Wow. But I do hear good things. You know, they got good programs and

[Brian Kohberger]

stuff, so they do have good programs, I will say.

[DMV Clerk]

Yeah. So are you planning on sticking around with Pullman for a little while, doing the program and then see where life takes?

[Brian Kohberger]

Yeah, I do like Pullman.

[DMV Clerk]

Okay.

[Brian Kohberger]

But I'm not famous. Like get a job.

[DMV Clerk]

Yeah, I may have to go pretty much right here.

[Nancy Grace]

Talk about a self important snoot. Bethany, did you hear that? Hey, do you go to the university here? Yeah, PhD. I'm definitely not an undergrad.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

And then she says, impressive. Like he's, he's moving towards bragging and posturing at that point. Probably what he does everywhere in his life, right? He tries to brag and insert himself into positions of superiority and importance. And so it's like, just takes only a couple minutes, Nancy, before he starts to brag and become grandiose and circle back to what a great guy he is.

[911 Caller]

And then all of a sudden I heard walking up, I heard a scream. And she ran upstairs because she saw someone. That's what I'm pretty sure she said. She, someone's here and she's screaming, just random. And I called for her name, but I jumped up and locked my door because I was so scared. And then I heard someone in the bathroom and I heard her crying. And I heard some guys say that, you're gonna be okay, I'm gonna help you. And I kept calling her name, but she wasn't answering. And then it.

[Nancy Grace]

He calls. Mommy speaks. Nearly an hour driving around the crime

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

scene, Brian Coburger did not pronounce, pretend he was sane. It was, it was apparent to everybody around him.

[Nancy Grace]

Literally just hours after committing four brutal, cold blooded murders, Brian Kohberger waltzes into the DMV to get a new tag and license. How he kept a straight face and carried on normal conversation is a wonderful. It's a curiosity. Let's listen.

[DMV Clerk]

New title, should have been in the mail in about two weeks. So keep an eye out for that. If it's any content you still haven't seen it, just let us know because we can reissue it at some point. And the ones without go on the front. And these two belong to you now. So if you ever celebrate the vehicle, you get

[Dean Graziosi]

room.

[DMV Clerk]

Yeah.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Why.

[Brian Kohberger]

Why does state have boats like front

[DMV Clerk]

peculiar? I don't know. We're like one of the, like, only states to require boats.

[Brian Kohberger]

And I was wondering why. Exactly.

[DMV Clerk]

You're all set and good to go. And those place is yours. Okay? Yeah, absolutely. Oh, and we have Pennsylvania places on the vehicle. You should double check with Pennsylvania. They might be states that require to send them back or they charge a little card.

[Brian Kohberger]

I don't believe that they do because.

[DMV Clerk]

Oh, okay then. Yeah, you should be good. I always check a lot of their code states do.

[Brian Kohberger]

Yeah, yeah, definitely look into that. Thank you.

[DMV Clerk]

I appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely.

[Brian Kohberger]

Have a good one.

[DMV Clerk]

Yeah, you too. Have a great weekend.

[Philip Dube]

Thank you.

[Nancy Grace]

To Joe Scott Morgan. Did you hear him say have a good one?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, actually, I did. You know, just business as usual. Right. Going back out to the car and I guess tooling back off to his apartment there in. On campus at Washington State University. Nancy. Yeah, just very calm, collected at that moment, Tom. And again, I think that this is some kind of gate that he kind of passed through here. You know, he's kind of testing the waters. I wonder if this is the first time he was out and about after these events. You know, did he decide to. Yeah, well, I think I'll just go out into it. Looks like it's really illuminated out there. I think I'll just go out in the sunny day and get in my car and run down to the dmv, stick my toe in the water and see if any. Anybody emerges from around the counter or around the corner to put the bracelets on me and haul me away. And he passed that gate, didn't he? So, you know, I began to think about that. And then reflectively, I think again about the absolute destruction and horror that he left in his wake at that apartment or at that house there on King Road. So for me, you know, trying to. Trying to balance these two things out, his appearance at that, at that. At that counter and then what had happened is really hard to try to understand. But Nancy, you know, they never said criminal investigation is easy. Certainly not when you're talking about a massacre on this scale.

[Nancy Grace]

Also tonight we have obtained body cam. I want you to hear it as well.

[Police Officer]

We're gonna seal this bad boy up here pretty quick. And all four victims are on their way to the funeral home. So once we get evidence stuff accountable,

[Joe Scott Morgan]

I'm gonna leave here and we'll come

[Police Officer]

back in the morning basically. So yeah, if you get to a place where you're, you're good to stop then good to stop and we'll just

[Brian Kohberger]

catch up to you in the morning.

[Nancy Grace]

All right, man, thank you.

[Police Officer]

She heard something around 4 o' clock this morning. She said it was one of the victims playing with the dog, what she thought it was. She then heard that same victim yell something to the effect that there's someone in the house. She opened up her door, thought she saw someone, someone at the top of the stairs shut her door. A little bit later, a few minutes later, she heard a female crying. She lied again with the same victim, but may not have been crying in the bathroom. You heard a male voice that she did not recognize saying something to blind of the effects of. It's okay, I'm here for you. A little bit later after that she opened up the door again and saw a male dressed in black, had a ball, love her some type of a mask over his face, standing by the back door near the spider. She played with these, Caucasian based off her new cutouts in the eyes. They made eye contact. She shut her door and she's pretty sure that was. And shortly after that she called the other roommate downstairs and hey, there's someone in the house. The other roommate said come down here.

[Nancy Grace]

That is a stark contrast. You're talking about Joe Scott Morgan. You've got him at the DMV saying hey, have a good one. Right after this where the roommate realizes her four others, the four others have been murdered and she somehow was spared. And she looked at the killer in the eyes and somehow escaped death. And you hear it start off all four victims on the way to the funeral home. I mean that is just like a slap, a cold slap in the face for the victims families. All four on the way to the funeral home just so casually tossed off.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, yeah it is. And you know, I go back to what, what the police officer stated relative to the comment that Coburger made about I'm here to help you. I wonder if he had that same stupid grin on his face with those dead eyes as he was saying that there was. And in. In amongst that bloodbath that he had created. And again, in this kind of passe way, you know, just like he's talking at the counter right here, almost robotic, right? I wonder if that's the way he treated. Treated those victims inside of that environment. Did he ever. Did his blood pressure ever increase? Did his pulse rate ever increase? Or was he just an absolute animal? And again, removing the bodies from the scene and you're. You know, this is kind of one of the first times that we've really heard. This is very intimate information about the bodies being removed from the scene so that they can go to the funeral home and then be transported over for the autopsies that would follow later. And again, I go back to this idea that he's at the DMV while all of this is happening. And again, this is that night. But just thinking that they're still out there processing the scene. Remember what the police officer said? He said, we'll come back in the morning and we'll get started again. I guess at first light, they're still working the same, Nancy, in real time. I think a lot of people forget about that, and particularly you match it up with his interaction at the DMV, and it really sends a chill up your spine.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Bethany, listening to Joe Scott talking just then. I guess when you're a victim of violent crime, it never goes away. Because when I heard the body cam, all four victims, they're on the way to the funeral home. And then I heard Joe Scott talking about it. I remember when my fiance was murdered, it didn't seem real. I thought, oh, if I can just get to him, I can fix it. He's had a car accident. Maybe this is wrong. And then I saw my pastor write Bernstein Funeral Home. I can remember that like it just happened. I wonder if the victim's parents have heard that body cam. I hope they haven't. I mean, they've seen a lot worse. But there's just something about the finality and a funeral home and the smell of all those fake flowers, it just. Just makes it all real, you know,

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Nancy, there's such a finality to death. And how a loved one dies is important. I lost a husband to cancer many years ago, and I'll never forget him being wheeled out on a stretcher to go to the funeral home. And it was the look. He was in the body bag. I couldn't see his face anymore. He had died in our home. And anything that is reminiscent of that or reminds me of that night. Even the color black, even the word funeral home. Any tiny little thing can cause that kind of a flashback. And there's something so tragic about this scene I want to point out. The DMV clerk says you're good to go. I think she's trying to push him along at that point. She has the power to push him along. She's behind the counter. She's safe. Did you see that dog in the video? There's a dog running around. You know, her friends and colleagues are all around her. These four victims in this home could not move him along. They could not. They were half asleep. He had a KA Bar knife. He's more powerful than them. They're not in a safe place like the DMV worker, Nancy. His biggest preoccupation, co workers was a guy named Danny Rawlings, the Gainesville Ripper who committed a similar crime. Targeted college students dressed in black, used a KA Bar knife. Sexually assaulted the victims first. I do believe this could have been worse. I do believe something happened where he was not able to sexually assault them before committing the crime. Perhaps he was too inexperienced and a novice got interrupted, heard a noise. We cannot imagine what happened. We cannot imagine how the parents feel. But trust me, every day they are thinking about the loss of their kids and they are going in horrifying detail over all the. All the interactions, all the details, all the horrors of that night and just hoping their children were spared the worst.

[Nancy Grace]

To the Moscow victims, rest in peace and to their families. Godspeed to you. You are still in. So many prayers. We remember an American hero officer Adam Buckner, Tucson PD Killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife, now widow. American hero officer Adam Buckner. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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[Nancy Grace]

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.