Susan Hendricks (3:05)

He just wants to have power over people.

Nancy Grace (3:07)

He's a machine. A killing machine. Okay, before I get into the thousands of pages that are being poured over as we speak, one revealing his plot to get a reversal, have his plea deal overthrown, and guess what? It includes claims of prosecutorial misconduct. But before I can get to that, I've got to talk to Susan Hendricks joining us about the creepy selfies, the shirtless selfies. New ones that have just emerged.

Susan Hendricks (3:41)

Exactly.

Nancy Grace (3:43)

Susan Hendricks joining us. Journalist, investigative reporter, author of down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. To the control room. I'd like to see the new selfies. Actually, that was a misstatement. I wouldn't like to see them. I'm going to have to. Oh, dear Lord. I'm going to have to report on them. Just hold that. What the hey. What? Okay, tell me, Susan, tell me what this is and why I'm having to look at Coburger without a shirt on, flexing and staring into the camera. Why is this happening?

Susan Hendricks (4:21)

Yeah, they are cringe worthy. And for the company that looked through his data, his cell phone, they found out that he.

Nancy Grace (4:28)

Does he actually have his pants pulled down toward his crotch? So I can see more of his belly button hair? What? You know, like in a Sports Illustrated magazine, you know, cover, the swimsuit is pulled down just a tantalizing bit too low. Is that what he's doing? Ew.

Susan Hendricks (4:50)

Ew. It's gross. It's cringeworthy. I feel sorry for the families who have to look at that. And I was looking at each picture, getting grossed out, by the way, but kind of wondering, what is he thinking there? He didn't send these to anyone. They're for himself. It reminded me of American Psycho. That movie. Just Loving Himself is cringeworthy. Disgusting. There he is, flexing. It's perplexing seeing all this evidence. What was on his phone?

Nancy Grace (5:16)

Okay, I think it's deeper than that because. Dr. Sherry Schwartz joining us, forensic psychologist specializing in capital mitigation@panthermitigation.com, she is the author of Criminal Behavior and Where Law and psychology is intersect. Dr. Sherry, thank you for being with us. I noticed that in one of the photos and I got a lot more important things to discuss with you, but I had to show these creepy selfies. And I want you to juxtapose these selfies, Dr. Sherry, with the fact that we know that Kelly Gonzalez was stabbed in the face 30 times or more. Isn't it true, JO SCOTT Morgan it hurts to even say it. And look at her beautiful face. JO Scott Morgan professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University and Death Investigator Isn't it true, Jo Scott, that when you have multiple stab wounds, as you and I have discussed before, that they begin to overlap because the person's bam, bam, bam, bam, like that with, in this case, a KA bar knife, and those stab wounds hit each other, as I refer to it as biting jello, you can't look at the jello and tell how many bites there were. So we know of 30 stab wounds Keely Goncalves sustained to her face. I believe it was Zanna that sustained 50 plus stab wounds. Now, now I'm having to look at his shirtless selfies. Joe Scott, explain overlapping stab wounds and what was done to Kelly.

Jo Scott Morgan (6:54)

Yeah, well, when you begin to think about this, Nancy, this also gives you an indication that he is literally on top of her, because the proximity of all these wounds. You talked about the kind of interlocking or overlapping injuries that she sustained. We're talking about Kaylee, where they are. So they are so concentrated that the individual that is perpetrating this has to have this individual pinned in one spot where they cannot move because he keeps hitting the target every single time over and over and over and over and over again. Not only, not only is he cutting her, incising her, stabbing her, he's also. She's also sustained multiple blunt force trauma where her facial bones were fractured as well.

Nancy Grace (7:42)

Nancy okay, guys, we're talking about the stab wounds only to kill it. Gonzalez Right now. But there's so much more. Ethan. Jugular was, was slice. There was arterial bleeding all the way up to the ceiling. And this guy is taking his shirtless selfies for his own enjoyment. Listen to what Mrs. Gonsalves told us.

Susan Hendricks (8:11)

We actually learned all the truth from her autopsy report. And we were given her autopsy report on a thumb drive during the sentencing. The investigator walked into the courtroom that day and said, and we had arranged that, and he said, here's the autopsy report. So in reading that autopsy report, we found out that Kaylee had been stabbed 24 times to her face and head. She had 11 to her chest, neck, and, like, torso area and three to her upper extremities. So I thought about her eyes, too. I was like, was her eyes stabbed? But somehow or another, Kaylee's eyes had not been stabbed. Kaylee did have really bad facial damage. Some of her teeth were missing, several were broken, and she had Two subdural hematomas to her head.

Jo Scott Morgan (9:15)

So.

Susan Hendricks (9:18)

Her nose was broken badly.

Nancy Grace (9:20)

Jo Scott Morgan Kelly's teeth were stabbed out of her mouth. And did you see Steve Goncalves, her father, at the end of that when they were speaking with us a few days ago? He, as his wife is speaking. I don't know how she even speaks about it. What strength this woman has. He looks like he just wants to take the camera and rip the head off. Just the anger seething in them. And do you blame them? Her teeth were stabbed out of her mouth.

Jo Scott Morgan (9:58)

No, you're talking about this child's daddy. So let that sink in. He can. Dollars of donuts, I guarantee him to you he wants to reach to that camera and grab somebody and ain't one of us. It's the guy that's currently housed in Idaho Correctional Facility. And I can understand why, because, Nancy, the brutality in not just Kaylee's death, but in all of these deaths is pretty much unimaginable. You don't send your kids off to college and expect them to return to you in a casket. It just. It doesn't work that way. It's the most disgusting thing on the face of the planet. And this guy was given. This guy. I'm not going to say his name. I refuse. You can't make me say his name. This guy was given so much latitude leading up and now all of this evidence is coming forward revealing how brutal he was, the timeline leading up to everything. And look, even DNA in this case is far more than we ever expected. There was a trail.

Nancy Grace (11:01)

The prosecutors hid so much evidence. Joe Scott. Let me see. Just got another thing which I'm going to get to. But I had to show these selfies of this guy preening in front of the camera. You do know that he has found a way to appeal his guilty plea and we uncovered it in his essays. But not only that. I told you to stew on this for a moment. He's now claiming he has all these mental health issues and should be retried or something set free. One of them is an eating disorder. Okay, hold that thought. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, back to you. Joining us, forensics expert psychologist Dr. Sherry Schwartz. His obsession with American Psycho. I don't get it, but can I talk to you about his preening in front of the camera and flexing and what it means? It's like Monk. Did you ever see Monk? Monk only wore a certain. He's a brilliant homicide investigator. He only wore one type of shirt every day. I think it was a pale blue Button down, just like in this case. Occasionally Coburg would go crazy and wear a white button down. But that said, they're lined up behind him in some of the shots. What is this revealing to you? Because the crime scene is blood soaked. It looks like a Jackson Pollock. The closet and the home where he takes these pictures is like bleached clean. And there's this freaky row of all blue button down shirts behind him. What is that, Dr. Sherry? I mean, a part of it could be his fascination with some level of fame, even if it is something he'll keep internally to feel better about himself, that he's just like Christian Bale in American Psycho, but he'll do it better and not get caught. We know how that worked out. These selfies are disturbing because we know that they're not being sent to anyone. They would be disturbing if they're being sent to someone. But in this case, these are for him. And so it suggests to me that he has some sort of internal dialogue going on where he's fascinated with this idea of. Hold on, Dr. Sherry, Dr. Sherry, Dr.— Sherry, wait, wait. I want you to look at the screen right now. Okay, Susan Hendricks, I'm going to get Schwartz's analysis of this. But he is saluting the camera now. Is this particular shot, this was taken after the murders, correct, Susan Hendricks?

Susan Hendricks (13:46)

It absolutely was. And you see that on his knuckle.

Nancy Grace (13:49)

There, the injury, you know, it's almost as if Joe Scott, speaking of the military, he's saying job complete, done and saluting.

Jo Scott Morgan (14:00)

Yeah, yeah. He is offering up this half assed salute that he's doing. But what's more significant, there is this abraded area on his knuckle, Nancy. That's key. This thing looks like it's in a state of resolve, but it's still relatively fresh. In this image, the edges, from my appearance, from my perspective right now is kind of dried out, but. Yeah, how do you, how do you explain that? Look, we get dings all the time on our hands. People at work, you know, with their hands. This guy's a PhD student, Nancy. He ain't doing no manual labor. All right, so we have to begin to think, what other kind of injuries did he have that he was presenting with? Did anybody else see anything else on the surface of his skin? And, you know, I began to think back. We've just discussed the brutality of this multiple homicide, this butchery. He's got to have some injury somewhere. There's something, because you know when you're using a knife like this over and over again. You're also using it. I think he used it as a bludgeon as well, where he could flip it over and use the end of the knife. And that's going to involve his fist. And even if he's gloved, you're still going to get these little injuries like that through the glove, even through a latex glove, because there's an abraded area. There's a friction that occurs when you strike something. And that would.

Nancy Grace (15:26)

That would potentially let me throw this to Josh Colesrud. Josh Colesrude is joining us. Renowned criminal defense attorney, former U.S. attorney founder, Colesrude Law Offices. What do you do when your client. After the murders. And we know he committed the murders because he's pled guilty. There's not. There's no doubt left. And he has on a pair. It looks like black, clingy tights, pull down, I would say, almost to his pubic hair. Dare I even think of that? Okay. Yeah. Thank you. With a cut to his finger. And this is what he's doing. You know, those would come into evidence. How disgusted do you believe the jurors would be if they had seen that this is just part of the evidence the prosecution hid from the victim's families before he entered that deal behind their backs? What about it, Colesrud?

Josh Colesrud (16:28)

Well, first off, I think we can all agree that Mr. Kohberger is a cold blooded killer. However, as a former prosecutor, looking at these selfies, you know, a selfie is not a smoking gun. In 2025, everybody takes them. If a selfie equaled vanity, then half of America would take them.

Nancy Grace (16:49)

Okay, wait a minute. Put him up. Put him up. Well, where do you think you are? Do you think you're in pre K right now? Are you in nursery school? Look around. You can't just say something like that and not expect to get called on the carpet. Do you take shirtless selfies? I'm just cur. Josh, do you stand in front of the mirror with your pants pulled down to your crotch and buff all up and take a. Do you.

Josh Colesrud (17:17)

I'd like to know if I was in college and I had an iPhone, which I didn't when I was in college, but if I did, I'm sure that I would have, as would all of my friends and all of my girlfriends.

Nancy Grace (17:30)

So then that's a no? Is that a no? You don't. Because Jazzy doesn't. I don't. You take shirtless selfies where you're all, like, clinched up, you know, I wouldn't.

Josh Colesrud (17:43)

Say that it would be unusual to do that, you know, sometimes of how you look when you're working out, to be like, all right, I want to take a picture of how I look now and compare it to myself a couple months from now to see if I have any improvement. So I think that there are advantages to taking selfies, okay?

Nancy Grace (18:03)

You know, just cut the correct crap, okay? You don't. You don't. McDonough, help him. Chris McDonough joining me, Director, Cold Case Foundation. Homicide detective who has scoured this crime scene. He started the interview room on YouTube. Please. The point is not a shirtless selfie. The point is he's doing this right after the murders, right around the time of the murders. That's where his head is. Those four students lost their lives as part of his vanity project.

Chris McDonough (18:34)

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, just look at the salute. The salute is a Cub Scout salute. I mean, he's got two fingers put together with the injury on his hand. And it just goes to show, you know, how empty this guy is. There's nothing there. I mean, these pictures look like they just came out of the movie Zoolander. I mean, he has been projecting this Persona for so long, and now the crime is finished, and now he's trying to gain power as a result of. Look what I have done. And these are disgusting. But it goes in concert with the type of personality he is.

Nancy Grace (19:16)

Colesrude, I would like to hear, although you will neither admit or deny your own shirtless selfies. That said, how would you get that suppressed? Because you do not want the jury to see that.

Josh Colesrud (19:32)

I would argue that it is unfairly prejudicial pursuant to Rule 403, Rules of Evidence. It doesn't show that he has motive. It doesn't show that it's a confession. It's not even sent to any person. It is solely for himself. It was found on his phone subsequent to when or after he was arrested. And if I'm the prosecutor in the case, the only way that I can think I could get this in would be to show injury like you showed on his knuckles. But the fact that he's shirtless or portrays Christian Bale and American Psycho, Unless there's some writings that he has where he says, I want to be like American Psycho, and then you can juxtapose that picture. Maybe, but it's going to be a tough sell to the judge, and I think that would be precluded.

Nancy Grace (20:27)

Hold on. Judge Colzrud, you've won a lot of cases, but let me remind you that evidence can Come in front of the jury to show motive, course of conduct, frame of mind, intent, the mental state at the time of the incident. These selfies will come in for that. And as far as did he write about American Psycho? He had a cash treasure trove of American Psycho videos and photos so he didn't have to write about it. He was looking at him and doing the Lord only knows what as he was looking at them. And also the timing of these photos is very important. Just before and after the murders goes to whether the murders were sexually motivated. We also know, don't we? Don't we Susan Hendricks, that found on his phone were many, many searches of raping women, having sex with women when they were comatose. That was one of his sex fantasies. That's what he expected to find the night he went into 1122 King Road. But that's not what he found and they all died. So all of this fits together with a sex related motive, doesn't it?

Susan Hendricks (21:53)

100%, Nancy. And as we were talking about it, 2022, think about that house on King Road. How much fun they had they posted on social media selfies. I believe that Bryan Coburger not only stalked the students that he killed, I believe he was stalking others. And I believe he stalked them online too. So now is he mimicking them? Now I could take selfies. I believe he was jealous of their friendships and I believe that's what he was doing there at Washington State, planning this murder.

Nancy Grace (22:21)

Can I know on location of your emergency? Hi, Something is happening.

Susan Hendricks (22:25)

Something's happened in our house.

Nancy Grace (22:27)

We don't know what. What is the address of the emergency? 112 2. What is the risk of the address? Oh, Kingston Road. Okay, and is that a house or an apartment? It's a house. Can you repeat the address to make sure that I have it right? I'll talk to you guys. We're, we live at the White, so we're next to them. I need someone to repeat the address for verification. The address. 1122 King Rugs.

Annabe Sofa Advertiser (23:08)

It starts like any other night. The glass of red, the cozy blanket. Then the drop. The stain so dark, so stubborn, it might as well have been a crime scene. But this isn't your average couch. This is Anna Bay. Fully washable, unspeakably comfortable and ready for whatever your life, your kids or your ex throws ahead it. And here's the kicker. Starting at just 699, you can make sure your sofa isn't part of the problem. Fully washable, stain resistant and built to hide even the darkest defenses right now get up to 60% off because no one should have to live in with a stain that won't quit. Anna Bay the only mystery you won't be losing sleep over shop washablesofas.com today that's washablesofas.com.

LG X Boom / TiVo Advertiser (24:08)

Stop settling for weak sound. It's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time, save 25%@LG.com with code Fall25. Bring the Boom XBoom over 300 channels, zero bills. That's TiVo. Plus curated movies, new series and sports highlights. No credit card, no logins, just TV that gets straight to the good stuff. Grab the remote, press play and start watching TiVo. Plus free binge worthy always on. Check us out@tivo.com.

Glen Washington (24:55)

I'm Glen Washington, the host of Snap Judgment from KQED. Every week we don't just tell stories, we drop you inside them. Real people, real voices, real moments that split a life in two. What do you believe? What do you risk? What do you want? Snap Judgment. New episodes every Thursday, wherever you get your podcast.

Nancy Grace (25:24)

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. It's a social awkwardness. He doesn't know how to relate to other people.

Josh Colesrud (25:34)

He's alienated himself.

Jo Scott Morgan (25:36)

Nobody wants to be around the guy.

Nancy Grace (25:38)

Let alone give them their telephone number.

Josh Colesrud (25:41)

And address to be added as a.

Nancy Grace (25:42)

Contact to his phone because I don't think he feels much at all. All the bloody clothes, the bloody evidence is all gone. And here he is. Thumbs up. Guys, I did it. This is his dissertation.

Susan Hendricks (25:57)

This is what he was preparing for the whole time. This is why he was able to pull it off.

Nancy Grace (26:04)

This guy, Kaia Burger left a trail a mile wide. And the prosecution hid all of these facts from the victims, families and the public and then took a deal informing them about the plea deal after it had already been accepted. And isn't it true, Josh Colesrude, veteran trial lawyer, that once a plea deal is offered and accepted, there's no going back?

Josh Colesrud (26:30)

Yes, once a plea is accepted, it is ironclad, almost no appealable rights, except for under three circumstances. A ineffective assistance of counsel is one, number two, prosecutorial misconduct or number three, a manifest injustice.

Nancy Grace (26:45)

Now what we are learning. Susan Hendricks joining us, investigative journalist who has been there on the scene from the get go, he is writing and writing and writing. And I'm going to quote some of his writings that we've uncovered in thousands of pages that were taken from his Washington state apartment. The confessed killer writes at length about how procedural injustice in the American system has produced many false confessions. Quote, false guilty pleas manifest due to a lack of judicial oversight, blaming the judge, and plea deals that seem to compel the defendant to enter them force the defendant to plead guilty under oath. If defendants fail to accept a plea bargain, he writes, prosecutors will seek the strictest charges. Some people plead guilty to crimes they didn't commit as to choose the lesser of two evils. So we've got him blaming the judge, the system. Now he says, quote, eyewitness misidentification is an inch is an issue, and therefore we need increasing video surveillance, which is interesting since he picked a home that had no surveillance cameras. He goes on Susan Hendricks to blame prosecutorial misconduct. He describes unethical behavior where people plead guilty when they shouldn't have. Another seven page, single spaced paper we discovered refers to a gruesome stabbing murder case. His words, not mine. Blood pooled around the victim and was spattered on the walls and television near the victim's body. He describes how the victim was found, the grisly details. He goes on and on and on. Okay, explain to me, Susan Hendricks, this plot revealing Kohberger's alleged plans to walk free to get out of the plea deal.

Susan Hendricks (29:11)

Absolutely. And I believe after reading that, that he had planned this every single day. Even the plea he planned. I believe this was all that he thought about, all that he did. And Nancy, I listened to your heartfelt conversation with Kelly's parents. The laughable part here is they might have a case against the prosecutor, not Bryan Coburg, co worker. It's not going to work here. That they were, if anything, nice to him. I remember hearing the judge say, oh, you don't have to stand up. This was during the plea deal and it infuriated Steve Gonzalez. So here he doesn't have a case, but I think he was ready for it. He was using his students to get in their minds and think of covering everything. But they did know what color car he was driving and he did leave DNA there, so it didn't work out in his favor. But the prosecution, a case against them, not going to work here.

Nancy Grace (29:59)

You know, writing about procedural injustice. And this has been uncovered now out of thousands of pages of documents that he kept meticulously. He is essentially hatching a plot to get his plea. His Guilty plea reversed. He refers to lack of judicial oversight, blaming a judge for taking a plea that was a misguided plea. This is a real dig to Dave Mack joining us, crime stories, investigative reporter. A real dig at the judge claiming prosecutorial misconduct would be overlooked by the judge. And what about Dave Mack claiming false guilty pleas where people are between a rock and a hard spot. If they don't plead guilty in his case to life, then they'll get the death penalty. So therefore what he pled to something he didn't do. That's what he's saying. That's exactly what he's saying.

Josh Colesrud (31:02)

He's laying this out there ahead of time as to why he would plead guilty. I didn't have a choice. I had to because they told me.

Nancy Grace (31:10)

If I didn't do this, this was going to happen.

Josh Colesrud (31:12)

But, Nancy, you pointed out something during the hear where the judge was actually asking very specific questions.

Nancy Grace (31:21)

And for those of us who are not attorneys, we didn't quite understand why.

Josh Colesrud (31:25)

The judge was going so far with his Q and A here. And the whole point was the judge.

Nancy Grace (31:31)

Was making sure everything that Coburger was claiming would stick up so he couldn't.

Josh Colesrud (31:37)

Come back later and try to pull this.

Nancy Grace (31:40)

It was a magnificent job by the judge in that moment.

Josh Colesrud (31:43)

But he was obviously planning, he was going the long game here, Nancy, from the very beginning.

Nancy Grace (31:49)

You know, another thing, guys, you were seeing the victims that lost their lives that early, early morning in the wee hours of the morning when Kohberger entered their home stealthily expecting to find women asleep. We believe that he could rape. And instead he found them up and alive ordering doordash eating, texting, and it was literally a bloodbath. Chris McDonough joining us, veteran homicide detective and star of the interview room. Chris, this is what I would always do. And I mean, for every single guilty plea I ever took, I'd swear the defendant in under oath on the Bible and make them state. I would ask questions to which they would respond. And one of them, after I swore them in was, are you entering a guilty plea today to let's just pretend murder? Yes. And have you been promised anything or threatened with anything in order for you to plead guilty today? And they would go, no. And then I would say, are you pleading guilty of your own free will without any hope of gain? Has anybody threatened you, coerced you to plead guilty today? And then they would answer, no. So then they're under oath. I did not hear that happen during this guilty plea, Chris. I mean, if this, if this didn't happen. I mean, everybody in the county jail would walk free because they would say, oh, I was afraid I would get a worse sentence if I went to trial. I really didn't do it. It's total B.S.

Chris McDonough (33:34)

Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. And I recall you saying exactly that when he didn't tell the story and the court let him just basically go to jail, go to prison. But here's a really other interesting thought to dovetail into what you're saying here. If we go back to those pictures just for a minute, just to think about the duality of this guy's personality. And look at the one where he's at the lake where he's in the shirt and you look at the mountain range behind him. You know that, you know what that mountain range is? That's Mount Rainier, okay? And he who's famous, that one right there, who's famous for that area, Ted Bundy. And if we take a look at his phone and the obsession that he had with serial killing. And there's another one here where there's a rock behind him and one side he's studying right there, that one. Look at the right rock. It says sluts. This guy hates women. So in one part of his personality, he's projecting in his public Persona, hey, I'm going to try to get out of this. And the second real part in his hidden personality is I'm going to kill women.

Nancy Grace (34:49)

You know what, Chris McDonough, you just put chills down my spine to think this guy walking around amongst all those beautiful young co eds. I mean, it was just hunting. They were his prey. And now these writings found in one of his essays show he knows how to go about getting a guilty plea overturned. He does. He's researched it. He's written about it. And believe you me, Josh Colesrud, former assistant U.S. attorney, now criminal defense attorney. Josh, you can blood, sweat and tears, you can give it all to your client. But then when they're behind bars, you go on about your life, you go to your next client, and they're sitting there gnashing their teeth and twisting their tail. All they have to think about behind bars is, how am I going to get out of here? How am I going to get that plea reversed? That is what he is doing right now. And it doesn't matter how hard you worked or what a great job you did, you will go right down the crapper. You will. The attorney will be sacrificed with an ineffective assistance of counsel. And I heard Chris McDonough state, the judge let this plea happen. Well, yes, he did, but, you know, you can't really stop it. Blind plea. But it was the prosecutor's duty to ask those questions and make sure they were asked, put the defendant under oath and make sure he was pleading by his own volition, not out of fear, threat, or coercion. But isn't it true, clients, no matter what you do for them, they will claim ineffective assistance of counsel to get out of jail? That's all he's thinking about right now. Colesrud.

Josh Colesrud (36:41)

That's absolutely correct. The most common appeal from a plea agreement is the iac, the ineffective assistance of counsel claim. And, you know, what he has to show is that his lawyer missed something that was very obvious. It was a standard deviation from what was expected. And here I think he's going to have some difficulty because his attorney did a great job of getting him out of the death penalty. You know, that was the attorney's main motivation at the time. Also, Mr. Kohberger, under oath, admitted to the crime itself. So I think that his angle right here is going to be prosecutorial misconduct. He's going to say that the prosecutor hid evidence that the prosecutor used controversial DNA technology, IGG technology that was illegal. And I think that's going to be where his angle is going to be in this case.

Nancy Grace (37:43)

The plea deal. The infamous plea deal taken by the prosecutor after so much evidence, so many facts were hidden from the families. Kohberger, as we go to air tonight, plotting, scheming, planning a way to get that plea reversed. What were they hiding?

Josh Colesrud (38:04)

Just telling us our child was stabbed brutally. How many times?

Susan Hendricks (38:09)

How many times? We just learned the day of the. Or the day before the sentencing, how many times Kaylee had been stabbed?

Nancy Grace (38:17)

Wait a minute. I am stunned because she was stabbed so many times they could not identify her. And you just learned about that when the plea was set to go down?

Susan Hendricks (38:32)

We learned about it after the plea, the day before the sentencing.

Josh Colesrud (38:36)

Guy should have been punched in the face. He was a creep and he's a disgusting creep.

Nancy Grace (38:40)

He is a creep. Stay away from him. Anti woman misogynist stalking behavior. 13 complaints where he would intimidate or stalk female students. And so much more tonight. Are there more victims emerging? If we're hearing about these victims, how many other victims are out there and what is the severity of what happened to them? Joining me in All Star Pound makes sense of what we are learning. Two women tell police they suspect Kohberger was stalking them while he was at Washington State University. Straight out to Susan Hendricks. These women state that they spotted Co burger at their employment over and over and over to the point other co workers would warn them, he's here, he's here. Then one of them goes home. She is semi nude, changing clothes, and someone comes to her window and either taps on the window or hits the window and she realizes someone's watching her. And I'm going to go to you in just a second. Chris McDonough. That's Chris McDonough. And I have looked at the scene over and over, and that's exactly what Kohberger was doing here. And he had a great vantage point to stare into the girls bedroom windows. But not only that, one of them has a husband. And during one of these stalking episodes, the husband comes home and sees a white car speeding away, similar to Bryan Kohberger's. So we know there are other victims. Tell me about these two.

Susan Hendricks (40:18)

Yeah, there is a clear pattern here. One of the students worked at the university bookstore. He went in, she never gave him her name, and he called her by name. He was obviously looking into who she was and would just stare at her. Another one worked in the criminology department. And she said she caught eye contact with him out of her window, which means he was staring directly in. She ran and hid in the bathroom. She even went to Brian Kohberger and said, I'm a lesbian. There's nothing that's going to happen here. Didn't deter him. This was happening over and over again. And I believe he was looking for someone to murder and he found that sadly, on King Road. But I remember Steve Gonzalez telling you, Nancy, that there were red flags everywhere with this guy. 13 incidents that they knew of and.

Nancy Grace (41:02)

The school, Washington state did nothing. Could you retell very slowly the encounter where the woman, the victim, saw him looking at her through the window and she ran and hid in the bathroom?

Susan Hendricks (41:17)

Yeah, she was in the classroom and she could feel, you know, when you feel someone kind of staring at you and looked at and made eye contact looking out the window. And she said the only way that that would occur is if he was looking directly where she was. I believe she was the target here. Then she sees him come in the building and she runs and hides in the bathroom. That's how threatening she thought he. That she had to hide. There's people. Maybe you don't want to see it work. And he said, oh, hey, you don't run and hide in the bathroom. And you mentioned the husband. There were footprints up to that window. And she said it was clear or her husband said it was clear that he kind of backed away because there was only one set of footprints. And one of the women said this. NANCY it's so pressing that nothing seemed to deter him. He wasn't bothered by rejection.

Annabe Sofa Advertiser (42:10)

It starts like any other night. The glass of red, the cozy blanket, then the drop. The stain so dark, so stubborn, it might as well have been a crime scene. But this isn't your average couch. This is Anna Bay. Fully washable, unspeakably comfortable, and ready for whatever your life, your kids or your ex throws at it. And here's the kicker. Starting at just $6.99, you can make sure your sofa isn't part of the problem. Fully washable, stain resistant, and built to hide even the darkest defenses. Right now, get up to 60% off because no one should have to live with a stain that won't quit. Anna Bay the only mystery you you won't be losing sleepover shop washablesofas.com today that's washablesofas.com.

LG X Boom / TiVo Advertiser (43:09)

Stop settling for weak sound. It's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because, let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG x boom. And for a limited time, save 25%@LG.com with code fall25. Bring the boom. Xboom over 300 channels, zero bills. That's TiVo. Plus curated movies, new series and sports highlights. No credit card, no logins, just TV that gets straight to the good stuff. Grab the remote, press play and start watching TiVo. Plus free Bing. Always on. Check us out@tivo.com I'm Glenn Washington, the.

Glen Washington (43:56)

Host of KQED's Snap Judgment podcast. And on Snap, we don't just tell stories, we live them. Every week a different journey, like on a plane with Rihanna. A racetrack in Tijuana. A year inside an Oakland homeless encampment. Real people, real voices with original music and cinematic sound. Snap Judge from kqed. New episodes every Thursday. Wherever you get your podcasts.

Nancy Grace (44:26)

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Dr. Sherry Schwartz joining us, forensic psychologist, author of Where Law and psychology intersect. Dr. Sherry I've had so many cases. This is anecdotal. I don't have a statistic where it would be I'd be prosecuting a rape or a murder, maybe a serial rape. And I would look back in the suspect's history way back, way back. I would find peeping Tom. And it happened so often that I started talking to people in the office. You know, the few people that I confided in there. Have you noticed that so many of these murder perps and or rape perps have been peeping Toms? It's just the beginning. That's one thing I want to throw at you. But first I want to explore what Susan Hendricks just said. Gosh, this is reminding me so much of trying cases, because before I would put, say, you on the stand, I would meet with you ad nauseam to figure out what it all meant. When someone, a grown lady, young, in her twenties, but still a grown lady, runs and hides, this woman is not fanciful. She's got a job. She's going to school. She's running a household. She ran and hid from CO Burger. She ran in the bathroom, shut the door and locked it. That's an instinct. That's why we are alive today, because we have instincts and we act on them. Why did this young lady see Coburger and run and hide in the bathroom? Well, she either had prior interactions with him or saw him around or something about that particular interaction, which is completely nonverbal. Something told her her instinct, her fight or flight response said, flee, get out. Go hide. This is somebody who has the potential to cause you danger. And these are things that shouldn't be underestimated when people have reactions like that. And of course, Josh Colesrud, your veteran trial lawyer. This incident may or may not have come in at trial as a similar transaction, but it speaks to me, it means something to me that this woman. Other women were so instinctively afraid of Kohberger, they would hide. Just. Just wait till I tell you about what a mother hen did in the criminal procedure department at wsu. Just wait. You're going to freak. But that means something. But it would never have come into evidence, would it? In a nutshell, Colesrude.

Josh Colesrud (47:19)

Well, you're absolutely right, Nancy. In violent cases, judges do allow sometimes some type of character evidence. And what this could show is a pattern or pattern evidence that could go towards motive later on, that this defendant was learning how to be a predator. He was learning how to case female victims, how to hide his tracks, how to target certain female victims. However, the evidence has to cannot be unfairly prejudicial, which is what the argument would be in this case. A Washington State University faculty member says her maternal instinct took over when she wouldn't allow a female student to be left alone in an office on campus with Kohberger. She keeps herself busy until he left and says it wasn't anything specific about his behavior that prompted a response. It was just a feeling she had at the time. After CO Burger left, she told the student to email her with the subject line 911 if she ever needed help.

Nancy Grace (48:30)

Just got Morgan joining us. Professor Forensics, Jackson State University. A faculty member was so concerned about Kohberger stalking this particular. I've got. Look, look at this. All of these or other. Other instances of him scaring women. But this one, a faculty member was so concerned that she told the girl, just text me 911 if he comes back. Look, that is grounded in something. All of these women are not hysterical. And you remember that other home invasion they have not yet attributed to Kohberger, which leads me to. This is not a quantum leap of fate. What else is out there? What else is out there?

Jo Scott Morgan (49:14)

Nancy, I'm in my 21st year of academia this year, and let me tell you something. When you're in an environment, in an academic environment, you have freshmen that are coming in, returning sophomores, juniors, and certainly those that are about to graduate, they are the most vulnerable when it comes to a faculty member. And look, I know he was a ta, but he's been given charge over these individuals, over these students, to instruct them. Nancy, I submit to you that this whole game about the PhD thing, this is a means to an end. He saw this as shooting fish in a barrel because he knew that he would have instantaneous access to some of the most vulnerable people, those that want a degree, those that want to be successful in university. He could do and say anything to them because he perceived himself as having power. And it's a terrible situation to send your kids to the university and have a monster like this in this environment. And let me tell you one more thing, if you like that one. I think that WSU got hoodwinked into hiring this guy. That's what I really think. I don't think they did a deep dive on his background at all. And, you know, you think about the position that this university put these kids in because they gave him charge over these kids. Hadn't it ever struck you as odd that he didn't get along with his supervisors? You know why? Because his purpose was not to be there as an academic. His purpose was to be there as a predator. Nancy.

Nancy Grace (50:52)

You know, following up that, Chris McDonough joining me, former homicide detective. I don't know if you or if anybody on the panel ever had this experience, but over and over and over and over, I would see cases that had morphed, had graduated into rape, serial rape and or murder. Where it all started with a freak peeping Tom. He would be a peeping Tom and it would be dismissed Peeping Tom, pay $25 Peeping Tom order violation, citation. And it would go suddenly it would be more and more serious until it culminated and landed as an indictment on my desk to prosecute. Have you ever noticed that starting with peeping Tom?

Chris McDonough (51:30)

Yeah, absolutely. That that voyeurism in of itself is the fuel that helps fan the fantasy. And remember Nancy, when we were there and if you look at this, I mean this picture right here tells us everything we need to know. The intensity of this particular picture, this is the intensity he is operating with while voyeurism. And if we think about the fuel that he is now operating on, it's all of that intense non consensual pornography. And think about that. Him sitting in the backyard of those four kids house and has a fishbowl type of view. And that's why I have always been fascinated by that one cylinder block underneath the window of the back bedroom at that house. I saw him in my mind through my experience just sitting there and just waiting for those kids to fall asleep. And then his fantasy starts to play out because that's what was driving him.

Nancy Grace (52:38)

And you're right, Chris McDonough. He wanted sleeping comatose women to rape based on his own computer searches. All of this kept away from the victim's family. This and more tonight. Kohberger behind bars, plotting his jailhouse exit legally. Listen to what Steve and Christy Gonsalves say about this plea deal. For me, it was outrage because my.

Josh Colesrud (53:09)

Daughter was fighting up to her very.

Nancy Grace (53:10)

Last breath over and over.

Josh Colesrud (53:12)

She kept trying to get out of that bed and he was just drilling her and she's fighting for her last breath. And I got this old Santa Claus who's just throwing out a white towel.

Nancy Grace (53:22)

Just saying, oh, let's just make it all go away. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.

LG X Boom / TiVo Advertiser (53:34)

Stop settling for weak sound. It's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time, save 25% at LG.com with code Fall25. Bring the Boom XBoom.

WashablesOfAs.com Advertiser (54:04)

Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? WashablesOfAs.com has your back Featuring the Annabe Collection, the only designer sofa that's machine washable in inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slipcovers made with performance fabrics. Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged. And check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your Anna Bay sofa backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back Upgrade now@washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

LG X Boom / TiVo Advertiser (55:04)

Tired of flipping through apps to find something good? Meet TiVo plus your one stop free streaming network. No credit card required. With over 300 free channels, you get binge worthy movies from action and comedy to Indian award winners. Plus top TV shows, live news, sports, highlights and family programming all in one place. Watch live or on demand right from your home screen.

Chris McDonough (55:25)

Free.

LG X Boom / TiVo Advertiser (55:25)

No signups, no fees, just press play. That's TiVo plus free binge worthy and always on. Check us out@tivo.com I'm Glen Washington, the.

Glen Washington (55:36)

Host of KQED's snap judgment podcast. And it's snap. We don't just tell stories, we live them. Every week a different journey, like on a plane with Rihanna, a racetrack in Tijuana, a year inside an Oakland homeless encampment. Real people, real voices with original music and cinematic sound. Snap Judgment from kqed. New episodes every Thursday. Wherever you get your podcasts, this is an iHeart podcast.