Joe Scott Morgan (2:53)

And now in this. You know what?

Nancy Grace (2:56)

Go ahead.

Joe Scott Morgan (2:58)

No, I was going to say, I'm reflecting back right now. You could have knocked me over with a feather when we got that footage. Do you remember that? Because we didn't know that that existed. And all of a sudden. And all it takes, Nancy, is just one little turn of the screw, right? Something that we're not completely aware of. And then all of a sudden, boom, the narrative completely changes. Or at least the narrative is more clear.

Cheryl McCollum (3:23)

And.

Joe Scott Morgan (3:23)

And I think. I think we might be headed down this road with Mrs. Guthrie.

Nancy Grace (3:28)

Nancy, we have just learned that in the Celeste Rivas case where D4VD, aka David Anthony Burke is now charged in her murder and her dismemberment of this then 13 year old little girl. Don't show me him. I've seen him enough. I don't care if I ever see him again. The Tesla. The Tesla. Every Tesla has 360 degree visual unless it's been destroyed in this case. See how valuable that is in the Celeste Rivas case? In this case, no one until a few days ago has been looking at, around, around that Uber delivery, that Uber drive. So what, if anything, can we learn? Joe Scott Morgan.

Joe Scott Morgan (4:24)

Well, certainly. Directionality, you know, what, what route was taken. And also, you know, I'm, you know, look, as an old investigator, I want to know as much as I possibly can about the driver. You know, that they have an awareness of her, maybe who she is, this sort of thing. Were they followed in any way? I think. And so any kind of players that might be involved in this peripheral. Look, we'll take anything, right? We'll take absolutely anything relative to the data that can be sourced. Where did this individual go before, okay, he picked up Mrs. Guthrie. Where did he go after he picked up Mrs. Guthrie? I want to know everything about it in granular detail. Nancy.

Nancy Grace (5:07)

From what we can tell, there was intense planning of the kidnap Mrs. Guthrie. So what we're getting at is when he picked up Mrs. Guthrie to take her to Annie's. We have reason to believe the pert was already in the neighborhood, positioned, waiting. Straight out to Cheryl McCollum joining us, cold Case and Cold Case Investigative Research Institute founder. She is also a crime scene investigator and she is the star of a hit podcast, Zone 7. She's the author of a brand new book, Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer Solving the Cold case of the Flint River Killer's Daughter. Amazing book by the way. Cheryl McCollum, thank you for being with us. We have reason to believe that if you, you know, when you don't know a horse, Cheryl McCollum. You look at his track record, we already know that Ms. Guthrie's kidnapper was there on January 11th. He's caught on video and very likely there on previous occasions. You know, he was in that neighbor poised with his accomplice when Mrs. Guthrie was first picked up and taken to Annie Guthrie's. Many people believe he may have already gotten into her place before Mrs. Guthrie returned home that night.

Cheryl McCollum (6:31)

You know, Nancy, I want to go back to the car first. When I first get to a scene and I get out of my car. I take photographs up and down the street. The reason is I don't know what cars belong there and what don't. I don't know who parks on the street normally, who's in a driveway, etc. They can go back with that Tesla video and see if there's somebody parked on the side of the road. If there's somebody parked in a driveway that doesn't belong. This person we know cased out her home before. You already mentioned the 11th. We think, you know, again on the 20 something. And then on the 30th, this person cased it. They knew her, you know, Cummins and Goings. They knew what she looked like on this night. They, I believe, were laying in wait. I think they know exactly when she got home. And that's why you see him going back to the front door after all the lights are out and he thinks she's sound asleep.

Nancy Grace (7:30)

Cheryl. Cheryl. Cheryl. Guys, joining me, in addition to Joe Scott Morgan, Cheryl McCollum is with us, the star of Zone 7 podcast. Cheryl, how many cases did you and I work together in inner city Atlanta and Fulton County? I mean, can we even count them? I can't.

Cheryl McCollum (7:50)

Thousands. Thousands?

Nancy Grace (7:53)

Yeah. You know, it's hard when I look back to count the numbers. 100, 150 brand new felonies a week times four, that's a month, times 12, times 10 years plus. That's a lot of cases. So, Cheryl, is there anything new under the sun? Defendants do the same thing over and over and over. They can't help themselves. Like, think about it. Everybody listening right now. Do you brush your teeth the same way at the same time every morning in the same order? Do you wash your clothes a certain way? Do you get somewhere in your car and go, oh, my goodness, I don't even remember getting here? I must have zoned out. People do the same things over and over and over. It's like. It's muscle memory. So what I'm saying, Cheryl, we know this guy, the perp, one of them anyway, because I believe there had to be at least two involved. We know this guy lay in wait before we know he cases sane more than once. So he was very high on preparation, getting there ahead of time. What would be any different this time? It's like every time a dog sits down, it circles three times. You know, he was in that neighborhood. Which makes it very important to review the video from the Uber driver that picked up Mrs. Guthrie that night. And also Cheryl McCollum. A lot has been made about the. The daughter Annie Guthrie and brother in law of Savannah Guthrie. Their car being impounded and why it took so long? How do I know it didn't have 360 nav? Just like a Tesla. Remember what we learned in the Alex Murdoch double murder trial and the murders of his wife Maggie and son Paul? His suv, it was a big honking, like a Wagoneer or something. Revealed so much data when he took off from the crime scene that night. Scratching off when he slowed down his vehicle, let the passenger window down electronically. Yes. The black box of his car showed that. Threw out Maggie's cell phone and then scratched off to hide out at his mother's house. Remember all that? So much we can learn. So, Cheryl. Yeah. So while their vehicle was in impound, how do I know they weren't looking at that?

Cheryl McCollum (10:25)

They should have been. They not only should be looking at any type of data that could come from the car, whether it's video or from the black box. Did that car move after 9 o'? Clock? They would know that. And that's why it's critical when you're ruling people in and ruling them out. Go through all of it in order to truly rule somebody out. The data from that phone, the data from the car is going to tell the story. That's not something they can manipulate. The Uber driver the same way if he were to put his phone on airplane mode. That black box in that car is still operational and still telling us whether it's rolling forward in park. The trunk opens, the passenger door opens. We will know all of it.

Nancy Grace (11:12)

Back to you, Joe, Scott Morgan. You and I and I believe Cheryl and Fitz were talking at the very, very beginning when Ms. Guthrie went missing about importance, the critical nature of vehicles in this case, and now it's coming true.

Joe Scott Morgan (11:29)

Yeah, we absolutely were. Because she's dependent, I think, to a great degree upon people moving her about. And so our vehicles are so tied to what our identity is and how, how we move about and also where we are at any given time. So I think that this could be one of the keys that's going to unlock this. You know, we can talk about physical evidence all you want to, but the big piece to this is her movement, because that's essential, Nancy. And one of the big questions we've always had, how did she get into the house, out of the house? Was she conveyed in any way? What's being implied here? So all of the actors that at least the police have revealed to this point are going to play a role in this, trying to create this timeline and hopefully NANCY and it's rather grim. But where is she, I think is a big part to this as well. And that's a question that we all want to know, right? We want to know who the perp is, but we want to know where she is in her current status.

Nancy Grace (12:36)

NANCY well, again, a track record. How many cases have been busted by vehicles. And all we need is one clue about the vehicle. I mean, think it through. Let's take a look, just for the fun of it, at Bryan Kohberger's white Elantra, zipping around the neighborhood, caught on one cam after the next, after the next. And it wasn't just Brian Kohberger. Do I have to say Molly Tibbets, as you will recall, Cheryl McCollum, star of Zone 7. Cheryl McCollum, in the Molly Tibbets case, the pert was unknown to her. There was no connection, which made the case even more difficult to crack. It was like a needle in a haystack until video emerged of the killer's car going back and forth and back and forth. And then you see Molly Tibbets come into the frame and the person, the perp is talking to her, trying to get her in the car. She threatens to call 911. What was interesting about that vehicle, it had distinct markings along the side of it and that is how the killer was caught. And we've seen it play out over and over again. In the case of the glam yoga teacher Caitlin Armstrong, her suv, let's take a look at that. Was spotted going round and around and around the murder scene just before a world class female dirt bike racer was murdered. Over what, a man. Because her boyfriend, Caitlin Armstrong's boyfriend had a hamburger with the victim. So what's her logical action? Kill her. That video cracked the case. So in this case, straight out to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us, Director Operations, USPA Nationwide security, leading a team of investigators around the world finding and extracting missing people. He's also a former Marine and Iraqi war vet. Brian this vehicle, I understand that new eyes are now looking at at video, looking at video for parked cars, for people walking, not just on the night of the abduction, but before that because we know the kidnapper was there ahead of time. That is his mo modus operandi method of operation. So what could the Uber driver's car reveal, depending on what kind of car it is?

Brian Fitzgibbons (15:27)

I think you and Joe Scott Morgan hit the nail on the head just earlier there that what's in the background in the periphery of that video. So on top of establishing that Mrs. Guthrie was coherent in a good state while she was in that ride. There might be other things that we can see. Was there a vehicle spotted on a front facing camera? Some of these Ubers have not only rear facing passenger cameras, but they could have front facing cameras as well operating at the same time. And I'll add one piece here. There are still thousands of hours of video collected from both public and private sources that that review is ongoing in a very tedious effort. But what they're focusing on is trying to find a vehicle in the right space and right time that can lead to be further investigated.

Nancy Grace (16:25)

Now we know moving beyond the Uber driver that picked up Nancy Guthrie that night, a lot has been made to you, Jo Scott Morgan, about Annie Guthrie and her husband's vehicle. We know that it was a blue Honda CR V and Honda's CR V specifically do have nav system depending on the trim level you get on the car. Now what does that mean? And what, if anything, can we learn from that? Because he, the son in law, brings Nancy home and you know, the killer was somewhere in the area when she was brought home.

Joe Scott Morgan (17:08)

When we're thinking about her delivery back home, who exactly is out there watching? Because Nancy, as I've held all along, and I think this is kind of obvious, but this is a targeted attack. They knew her, they knew who she was. She knew, they knew her comings and goings. And here's the thing, they knew that she's vulnerable. And so they're going to spring whenever they see that her guard is down. We're talking about kind of late at night, you know, she's barely ambulatory, she's worn out. She's been with, with her family at this point in time. They know she's going to turn in for bed. Nancy, it's been a long day, right? And so they're observing, they're waiting, they're watching. Now what are they waiting for exactly? Because you know, that's a bigger question. Thinking about, you know, why out of all the people in the world would they want to go after this poor woman? Well, I mean, I have my own thoughts about that relative to they know who her daughter is. I think everybody's going to know that's involved in this. And so they've targeted her, right? And so they're going to wait until they can spring their trap. And the question is, where did they put their vehicle to transport her off and back to what Brian had said, this idea of going through all of this videography is going to be Key to try to determine where another vehicle may have come and introduced themselves or itself into this equation, this visual equation that we're looking, that we're trying to figure out at this point in time. That's going to be critical. And look, I don't know who's looking at the video. I'm assuming it's probably the feds. I hope it's the feds and that they're going to try to break this down as in into the base elements. Because nothing, and I mean nothing, Nancy, at this point in time is off the table. Everybody has to be considered. And you know, as my grandpa used to say, let the hide come with the hair. I don't care who it impacts relative to, relative to the evidence, relative to a vehicle. Check it out. Go out there, look, look for these individuals, put them up against the wall, talk to them about it. Let's find out why were you there during that night. I'm hoping that they've done it to this point. I'm hoping that they're continuing to do it because you have to press, press, press in any investigation as we. Time is a precious commodity in this case.

Nancy Grace (19:44)

So tonight, in addition to a re review of video footage from not only that Uber driver, but from Annie Guthrie's vehicle to determine not just what was Mrs. Guthrie wearing, what was her demeanor, did she look ill? Was she concerned? Not just that. Looking for the vehicle. And that is going to require a lot of enhancement of the video. God willing. The video still there. We also learn that fresh eyes are reviewing the evidence from the feds. Not only is that video being reviewed as we go to air, we learn that Annie Guthrie herself provided the route she believes the killer used that night. Let's take a look at it. Straight out to Dave Mack, crime Stories investigative reporter. What is this? Where did it come from?

Dave Mack (20:40)

This actually, Annie Guthrie was in a group chat online with neighbors and sent this map to them at the beginning of the investigation. Nancy, this was put out there early, hoping that somebody might have seen something or had video along. You see the blue map line there, that somebody along that way could look through their video. I mean, this is really an incredible source of information from Annie Guthrie coming up with what she thought was the plan or the route, rather, taken by on the way home. So they're looking for anyone along this pathway, you know, that might have seen something. It's curious when you really get into this, that she's marked different addresses along the way. It's just an incredible piece of information that Annie Guthrie offered To this group of. With neighbors talking about the area.

Nancy Grace (21:38)

You know, if this route is real, if this is the route the killer took. Straight out to you. Cheryl McCollum joining us, crime scene investigator of many years, author of a brand new book and star of Zone seven. Okay, what do we do with it? This is the route that Annie Guthrie is allegedly convinced the killer used. It's full of evidence.

Cheryl McCollum (22:04)

Nancy, when you're looking at this map and you see all the places, the nail salon, I mean, you've got tons of businesses. You've got residential areas. I would not. Number one, I would not limit my investigation to this map, but I would certainly go through it based on what her daughter believes could be a route. We are over 80 days into this thing and we have a legitimate video of a vehicle. You've got to ask yourself why. How is that possible? With all of these intersections that we know have cameras, the gas stations, the churches, the businesses, how do we not have a vehicle? Well, Nancy, as you know, I was out there, and here's what I can tell you. At any given point, almost, you could take a hard right or a hard left and cut through little parts of the desert. It's vast, it's open. You don't have to go through that intersection if you don't want to. You can go right through parts of the land and avoid some of these places. So again, we know at 1:27 he's at the front door. We know by 2:29 the app has disconnected to her watch. We have a timetable. There's no way at this point, after 80 days, they can't pinpoint one mile away in that circumference and not catch him somehow. And I think with all the planning, he avoided those cameras.

Nancy Grace (23:36)

You know, he avoided those cameras. Cheryl, I hear what you're saying, but it's also a non sequitur. It doesn't make sense. If he did all that camera avoidance, then how come he didn't know the camera on her front porch worked?

Cheryl McCollum (23:48)

I don't think he cared because again, he's not in a hurry. He knows he's completely covered. He knows there's no connection to her. They don't know who he is. She doesn't know who he is. Again, after 80 days, we don't know who he is. So he didn't have a jammer, otherwise he wouldn't be acting like he did. I don't believe he had an accomplice. If he did, why is he the only one called on video over multiple days and multiple times? Why is he the only one we see dressed the same? And the only thing that changes on the 30th, he now has a weapon and a backpack. He came mission ready on that day. He was ready that day, the days before. Case in the joint laying out his plan.

Nancy Grace (24:33)

Let's look in depth at the route Annie Guthrie identified as the killer's route. Let's start with Lulu Walker Elementary School. First out to you, Brian Fitzgibbons. Take a look at that. You know, they've got to have cameras on. The map is to the far left. See that? It's on the frontage. In other words, it faces the street. They have got to have cameras all over. What do you make of it?

Brian Fitzgibbons (25:07)

Yeah. And this map was provided by Annie Guthrie out to the public in an effort to generate video tips, Right. To identify a route and say, hey, any private residences and individuals that may have captured video, send this in right away. Now, to your point about the elementary school, we've got public locations like a school library, and then you have private businesses along that route, pharmacies, gas stations, things like that, that undoubtedly captured video at that time. And I think we've talked a lot about a lot of the missteps here. Getting this route information out was not one of them. This would help generate those leads and help people to save that video before it expired.

Nancy Grace (25:56)

Joe Scott, there is a plethora of information. Look at the elementary school. What do you see?

Joe Scott Morgan (26:05)

Well, I can see four points, or at least probably multiple, more than four points of where cameras could be positioned. And it's going to have a field of visual. Visual perspective. Here's the thing. When you take a look at this, and these cameras, if they're working, and we've run into that before, have we not, on each corner of the building, these. These cameras, their field of view will be intersecting, okay? So if you think about. If you think about the. The vision that a camera has as it goes out, it kind of expands, right? So each one of these points will intersect with the other. The cool thing about this, from. Let's just say from the perspective of the school, that these things are going to be overlapping, all right? They're going to overlap. And you can catch. If you can't catch it from one, you can catch it from the other. I'm talking about the color, description of the vehicle, and in addition to that, you might be able to get a hit on a license plate relative to all of this. So the. These. These fields of view, if you will, are intersecting or overlapping of one Another, and this is on obviously a main thoroughfare here. We're talking about a school, right? So parents are coming and going, you know, throughout the day. They're going to have circle, you know, that you have to pass through, drop these kids off. And nowadays with the way schools are, security is at the top of their list. So hopefully these cameras are all functioning. Hopefully they're sensitive enough to pick up on any critical data.

Nancy Grace (27:45)

I got something for you, everybody. Green Toes North Nail Salon and massage. Take a look to the right of the building, right in front. Surveillance camera right in front. Cheryl McCollum.

Cheryl McCollum (28:01)

That's the first thing that I saw, Nancy, when you sent the picture, not only is it right in the front, it would capture the parking lot and the roadway. So again, my question becomes, why don't we have the car? If this is the route that he took, we would know the time that the app separated from the the pacemaker, that the approximate time that he would be passing through there. Again, you're talking about 2 in the morning, 2:33am there's not going to be that many vehicles. I don't understand how we don't already have it. My other question becomes, why does Annie Guthrie believe this is the route and where does she think they were going? Those are key questions for me that I don't know the answer to yet. But again, you pass more cameras than you know every day. ATMs have cameras, buses have cameras. I mean, you're on camera more than you think you are. But after 80 something days, we don't have this guy.

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Dave Mack (30:42)

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Nancy Grace (30:51)

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Dave Mack (30:55)

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Brian Fitzgibbons (30:56)

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Nancy Grace (30:59)

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Brian Fitzgibbons (31:04)

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Dave Mack (31:07)

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Nancy Grace (31:08)

Liberty, Liberty. Tonight, is the killer's route to Nancy Guthrie's home revealed? I've got a big question to you, Brian Fitzgibbons. This information is coming from Savannah's sister, Annie Guthrie, reportedly Mrs. Guthrie's daughter, obviously. Why is it so often that trained investigators discount civilian theories? And I always go back to an incredible example. It's the case of Gabby Petito. Gabby missing. Nobody knows where Gabby is. Her parents are distraught. They're frantic. They're in a panic. They can't get any cooperation from Brian Laundrie's family, who's staying quiet. They know that Gabby Petito did not come back from a cross country trip with her fiance, Brian Laundrie. They know she's missing. He's in her Ford Transit. Where is she? If it had not been for civilian sleuths that spot her Ford Transit in the middle of dispersed camping. You know what that is? We're campers. It means there are no lights. There are no electric hookups. There's no porta potties. There's nothing. You're out there with the antelopes, you and the crickets. If they had not spotted her Ford Transit and said, hey, that looks like Gabby Petito's transit, and they call police. And not far from there, what was left of her remains were found. Why is it law enforcement so often discounts civilian tips like what Annie has provided?

Brian Fitzgibbons (32:47)

Yeah, there's a. There's an inherent bias with a number of investigators based on their experience. They look at somebody from the public, is from a family member, and they see A lot of emotion there, and they immediately discount what's being said. Now, I'll call back right to the beginning of this investigation. Annie Guthrie was in the house telling investigators there is no chance that she want. That Mrs. Guthrie wandered off, that she's unable to walk more than 50 yards on her own power. And they were still, in the immediate sense, treating it as an elderly person wandering off. So, hey, this comes to missed opportunities, right?

Dave Mack (33:27)

No.

Brian Fitzgibbons (33:27)

No investigator, no investigative agency is going to be perfect. However, you know, there have been some big missteps here with not listening to the family. And, you know, might I say some of these tips from the public.

Nancy Grace (33:44)

Sheryl McCollum, you are a crime scene investigator. In my cases that I prosecuted, those are the first people I listened to. It's the family and what input they have in a case here. For whatever reason, you're wondering why, you know what, at some point, Cheryl, why ask why? Just accept that Annie Guthrie believes this is the route the killer took and run with it. Why is it law enforcement is so resistant to civilian or family input?

Cheryl McCollum (34:15)

I think in this case, you have to listen to her. Nothing else has panned out. And to me, you're at that scene. Nancy, if this was you and I standing inside that house, we don't even have to listen to any. You're looking over there. Her eyeglasses are there. Her cell phone is there. Her hearing aids are there. Her walker is there. Her shoes are there. This woman didn't leave on her own. It's clear she did not. So if you've got her child telling you, I think this is the route, you need to check it out anyway. From her home, that driveway, you can only go left or right once you get to a major intersection to the left and one to the right. At that point, if you do not have that killer's car on video, then pay attention to what her daughter's telling you. You got to check it out. You have to check out all routes. You have to check out all cameras. Even if we thought that the kidnapper went to the right, I'm going to go to the houses to the left. Because again, Nancy, he cased the joint. He looked at all the homes. He looked at where he could park and hide and then go to her house and be unseen the entire time. No neighbor again has produced the vehicle. We have him. He's been caught on camera more than once at the front door, but not from a neighbor.

Nancy Grace (35:39)

Take a look now at Circa 79 Salon. It has just been renovated. I'm going to show you now the before shop, before it was renovated, it was called Chantilly Tea Room, and it was transitioned into circa 79 to Dave Mack, crime stories, investigative reporter. As we're taking a look at the Circa 79 salon, formerly Chantilly Tea Room, the fact that it was renovated is important. I'm going to get to that. You heard Cheryl McCollum say why. Why did Annie think this is the route? You know, what? Why ask why Again, she thinks it's the route based on what she knows. So I'm running with it. And I'm not just looking for the perp. I'm looking for his vehicle. And not just the day of the kidnapping, other days, like January 11th. So why do we believe, if we know, why did Annie choose this route as the likely route the killer took?

Dave Mack (36:43)

Nancy? We don't know specifically why, but this was Annie Guthrie in the first days of the investigation, and she's trying to help. Her mom is missing. You know, she's in a panic mode of helping. She's not getting any feedback leading her to believe that she's getting the results she's after, which is, where's my mom? So she actually volunteers. Here's where, because, you know, she lives in the area. Annie Guthrie and Tommaso don't live that far from Nancy Guthrie's home. And so she knows all of the routes. She knows the roads that people go and drive on, and that's why she put it out there. And I. I agree with you more than just a Jolo citizen, you know, calling this in. This is the daughter of the victim, and she's putting this out there as a possibility. Now, this is a very specific getaway route, and it's easy to follow right there on the map. So when you get down to the nitty gritty, Nancy, this was Annie trying to help.

Nancy Grace (37:42)

Okay. Bottom line, there was a lot of words to say, we don't know, but thank you anyway. Let's take a look at Chantilly Tearoom. That is what circa 79 was before it was remodeled. It's a big structure, over 3,000ft. But what's interesting to me, it was remodeled by retail specialists with Cushman Wakefield. Why do I care? Because if it was remodeled recently, Cheryl McCollum. That tells me they've got surveillance cameras, possibly.

Cheryl McCollum (38:18)

What concerns me with any remodel is the cameras are going to be, you know, taken apart. They're going to be rewired. So for a period of time, they won't have any. And it's probably the last Thing they're going to put back together. So, again, I'm not asking why. You know, the reason that you're thinking. I'm asking why. For the investigation. If this pans out and we know the direction they're going, then we know where they're probably taking her. Now we know where better to search. Again, Nancy, I have not seen a legitimate search. Meaning let's get some volunteers out there. Let's go shoulder to shoulder. Let's pan out. Let's get some horses and ATVs. We haven't seen it. We haven't seen a call for a search from Savannah Guthrie. She could have gotten 5,000 volunteers out there. It hasn't happened. So either law enforcement doesn't think this has anything to do with an escape route, or they're ignoring vital evidence. But I'll tell you, I wish we had the 911 call. I wish we had the first thing they said. I think that would help us determine, you know, who. Who did they suspect first? What did they say first? I think that would help us.

Nancy Grace (39:36)

Joe, Scott Morgan, jump in.

Joe Scott Morgan (39:38)

Yeah. So if we look at these two points, green toes and the Circa 79 salon, you know, as it's entitled on the map. Guess what you have to do there, Nancy? You have to slow down because this intersects with a major thoroughfare. The critical point is, is that if there is a stoplight, if there is at just those two points alone, a stoplight, a stop sign, the individual driving this route, driving that vehicle, will have at least had to do a pause. You know, some people refer to it as a California roll. Right where you. You come in, you don't completely stop, and then you. You go ahead and go. It's not like this vehicle at those two spots would blast. Pass it. Pass, pass these. These locations. We go back to Coburger. We think about that 20 mile circle or whatever it was, where they're catching these glimpses that ain't happening here. That individual would have to slow that vehicle down to the point where you can actually capture something. And if there are any more of these kind of intersections along the way, those are going to be critical points, all right. Of where the individual would have had to have slowed down enough where you can actually get a capture off of these cameras. I think that those are going to be very important points. I'm glad that you pointed these out, because, look, I mean, you got nothing else to go on. If you look at the elementary school, yeah, it makes kind of a dogleg turn there. But did that stop there or they just kind of roll past it. These other places you've got intersections with, with a major thoroughfare, they're going to have to slow. At least they're just thinking about their own preservation. They don't want to get t boned as they're pulling out there. It's just human nature. They're going to have to slow down. That could be a critical point or critical points right there.

Nancy Grace (41:24)

And amazingly tonight, Dave Mack has done his own investigation into the route that Annie Guthrie provided and learned something very, very probative. What about it, Dave?

Dave Mack (41:36)

Nancy, remember we had the car that was seen on a ring camera that was about two and a half miles from Nancy Guthrie's home and it was on a back road away from the scene. It was dismissed by the police or the sheriff's department. When I laid that map over the route on that, that road does not show up on Annie Guthrie's, you know, route for getting away from the scene. But you lay it over and it's right in there. It fits as a possible route that could have been used as the escape route. It's right in the same general area.

Nancy Grace (42:11)

And that may answer Cheryl's question as to why Annie came up with this route. That video from our friends at FOX News. And tonight, another theory emerges by a renowned psychologist. Do you buy it?

Joe Scott Morgan (42:30)

Listen, pulls of intelligence involved here which has pointed to to me for a very long while now, to a group of people, at least two, there is someone behind the curtain who's more intelligent, more scheming and then the individual who actually carries it out because one of

Dave Mack (42:48)

the prime reasons for eliminating a person

Joe Scott Morgan (42:50)

other than financial is that they know something.

Nancy Grace (42:53)

That is our friend Dr. Gary Brucato. He's an esteemed psychologist and that is him from a hit on tmz, our friends Harvey Levin. As much as I think of bricado, I'm not buying that she was kidnapped or killed somewhere else and the killer went back to the scene to put her blood on the porch and open and shut the doors. I mean, we have her heart monitor, her pacemaker placing her there that night. So, Jo, Scott Morgan, what do you make of this theory that there's some motive we don't understand? Nobody understands that she was taken and killed elsewhere and the perp goes back to the scene to stage, including putting her blood on the front porch.

Joe Scott Morgan (43:47)

So the killer, just so that I understand this, actually had the foreknowledge to show up and not just stage the blood, but also deposit expert there. And what I mean by that is you've got blood that is being blown out of the nose and the mouth. And I'm going to stand by that. There's a close up. You look at the top, right? That cluster. Yeah, right in there. And that. In that tile space right there, you see those big depositions that are like the size of a nickel, perhaps. Those tiny depositions, Nancy. The only way you get that, I mean, I guess the person could have showed up with a turkey baster, maybe drawn up some blood and kind of blasted it out and then allowed gravitational blood droplets, which would be the nickel sized stuff. But those tiny, little. Little droplets. And let me set the record straight, that's not aspirin expert. So what that means is that blood is actually.

Nancy Grace (44:44)

You do hear yourself, right? The killer came back with a turkey baster full of. Nancy. See Guthrie's blood. Okay, I don't usually cut your mic, but I am sorely tempted. Move forward.

Joe Scott Morgan (44:56)

No, listen, it's implausible. The physical science. Just looking at those images, by the way, that were generated from a member of the media that walked up and took those pictures because the scene was unsecured. That deposition right there flies in the face of that, Nancy. It really does. And I cannot imagine that whoever this rocket scientist is that did this had the foreknowledge to come in and set this up and stage it up. Because that expert up there, you know,

Nancy Grace (45:29)

Joe Scott, while I've got you, a lot of viewers have questioned the fact that. Oh, these photos are from our friends at Fox News, by the way. A lot of viewers have questioned foliage being on top of the. Of the blood, which could have happened in any number of ways. But could you weigh in on that before I go to our other guests?

Joe Scott Morgan (45:47)

Yeah, because you have. It's just basic physical science. If you have the blood deposition right there, how in the world did the greenery get on top the blood? I've actually heard people say, well, there's evidence that. There is. There is. There are bits of foliage with blood deposited on top of it. So I think that that's going to be a big question here. And again. Hey, Nancy, guess what? We don't know because the scene wasn't secured. These images that you're seeing do not come from the police. All right? You've had what, Pizza delivery guys, pool boys?

Nancy Grace (46:27)

Okay, you're going down the garden path. You're way out in the weeds. Let's get it back in the middle of the road. You don't think that theory works, right? That's what I'm talking about.

Joe Scott Morgan (46:37)

No, I don't think it works. Absolutely not.

Nancy Grace (46:39)

I mean, you had to really do a backflip and involve a turkey baster to make that theory work. Okay, Cheryl McCollum, what about it? And you know, Brucato, really smart guy. I don't know where this theory came from. What do you make of it?

Cheryl McCollum (46:55)

If you look at the 90 degree angle drops, some of them are clear in the center or have a half moon. The only way that happens is if they have air that comes from the nose or the mouth, period. You could not take blood, transfer it, drop it and have it say, you know, have that same conclusion. How does the foliage get on top of the blood? That's easy. We see him on video placing that flower clump on top of the camera. At some point they fell off. That's easy.

Nancy Grace (47:30)

Okay. To you, Brian Fitzgibbons. You have gone all around the world finding missing people. I've got a lot of questions for you about Sonora, Mexico. But if you could weigh in on what Bricado said. And again, he is no idiot. But this theory that she was kidnapped or killed in another location and the perp came back to stage the scene to make us think it happened, it flies in the face of all the physical evidence. You've got to follow the physical evidence, like the blood, like the pacemaker.

Brian Fitzgibbons (48:04)

I'll Defer to Cheryl McCollum and Joe Scott on the forensic side. But what I'll add is someone like Dr. Brucato provides such supporting fires for someone like me in the field. And I'll explain this. An investigator can get locked into a certain hypothesis, a certain theory, right? And where you bring in somebody like Dr. Brucato to present these potential hypothesis. Yeah, maybe the forensic evidence shoots it down quickly, maybe it takes a day or two to shoot it down, but it gives another angle for the investigation to look at. And sometimes that creates a breakthrough, right? Because I can say for myself, sometimes I'll get locked into one hypothesis or theory versus another. And someone like that presenting, hey, there's someone controlling this from afar. One foot soldier on the ground executing the abduction. Right? These are things that might get missed.

Nancy Grace (49:01)

And we know tonight that, quote, fresh eyes have been brought in. Fitzgibbons. To take a fresh look at the evidence all over again. And I got to tell you something, Fitz. I'd be stuck in my office at the district Attorney's office in downtown Atlanta and it'd be 8 o' clock at night. I'd be looking at the same thing over and over. And then my investigator, Ernest, we were together over 10 years, only had one fight in 10 years over that POS OJ Simpson that said he'd walk in, say why are you still here? And I tell him, and he would say, just out of the blue, well, what about X? He was coming from a different point of view, something fresh. There's nothing wrong with that. And that's what's happening tonight, we're told

Brian Fitzgibbons (49:51)

100%. And that's where, you know, a talented individual like Dr. Bricato, hey, you know, Babe Ruth struck out a number of times at home plate, right. He also hit a lot of home runs. So, you know, that's where that experience and brain power comes into play in investigation.

Nancy Grace (50:09)

And tonight to Dave Mack, apparently Sheriff Nanos, the sheriff in Pima county is in, quote, unchartered career territory. A 10 day deadline has run out. He's in hot water yet again. Dave Mack, is this anything like when you get a skunk at a softball game when the other side just doesn't show up? In other words, doesn't sufficiently hand in the filing. So the other side wins.

Dave Mack (50:40)

A lot like that. Nancy. In reality, nanos was given 10 days to turn in a response to the questions the council had. And what he, what he did was he basically sat down with his lawyer and wrote up excuses for things, but it wasn't under oath. So he turned in basically an undocumented list of excuses for his behavior and the things that he had said, but not under oath. And now the council is having to determine moving forward with his entire future. We told him to do this, but he did that instead. So they're having to make a decision on whether or not they actually pull him back in, put him under oath and go through this whole process all over again to discuss his previous accusations of lying and misusing his office during an election year.

Nancy Grace (51:31)

Cheryl McCollum, don't you know that if they can get rid of him on a technicality, in other words, he didn't properly fill out these forms, he'll get the boot, right? He'll be taking the Pat and Turner, Pat the street and turn the corner. Bye.

Cheryl McCollum (51:47)

And Nancy, that is only going to serve to hurt this investigation. Somebody would have to come in and they would have to start all over, go through every single thing that would hamper the investigation, sadly. But let me tell you something. I don't think any of us on this panel has had all the confidence in the world in this sheriff. Statements like your guess is as good as mine. When he says Things like, oh, there's thousands of vehicles at that time of day. We all know that's not possible. You know, he is the one that said, oh, I believe she's still alive. Again, I don't think there's an expert out there that believes Nancy Guthrie is still alive. Nobody being held somewhere. So he's flip flopped. He's given bad information, he's contradicted himself. There's not a lot of, you know, trust in what he's doing. But anybody would hate to see all of this happening now. I feel for the family. The Guthrie family is not getting what they deserve in this investigation, period.

Nancy Grace (52:52)

Oh, goodness, no. But to you, Joe Scott Morgan, I don't know that I agree. If it would be such a bad thing for Nanos to be replaced, even though it is midstream.

Joe Scott Morgan (53:03)

Yeah, I don't think that it would be. But we have to look at this from a very. Let's take the 30,000 foot view on this, Nancy. And you know this better than anybody. What's this going to bode for? The future of the investigation and for. If they hook somebody up on this, what's it going to bode for? That, that prosecution, perhaps, you know, that the attorneys will have a field day with this. They'll say that there's, you know, it's rife with incompetence, that you missed evidence, all these sorts of things. And isn't it funny? Isn't it funny how those things that you do at the beginning of any investigation are going to echo through time? And this case, this case in and of itself is a benchmark for that. I got to tell you, Nancy, moving forward with this case, this is actually a case as a college professor that I will present for years to come, saying this is an example, kids, of what not to do. And here we are, we're still in the middle of it.

Cheryl McCollum (54:06)

And.

Joe Scott Morgan (54:07)

And it just keeps getting more and more bizarre as we go down this road.

Nancy Grace (54:11)

You know, Fitz, after there have been a number of, to say euphemistically, putting perfume on the pig, missteps, translation, screw ups. Is there a way to make a save on this case?

Brian Fitzgibbons (54:27)

I think there is. There's been a tremendous amount of leads generated, a tremendous amount of digital evidence. And it's important to remember here, there's a game clock on here and the game clock for the public, 88 days. And for the Guthrie family, it's tremendously heartbreaking. But the FBI controls that game clock, not the perpetrator of this crime. And they have an unlimited amount of time and resources to go through this evidence and find who did this crime. Okay, so that's an important piece to remember here. I don't think hope is lost that justice can be served in this case.

Nancy Grace (55:08)

Well, you just said something that is very encouraging. Brian Fitzgibbons, you mentioned the feds. If anybody can crack this case, it's them. But they need you. If you know or even think you know anything about the disappearance of Mrs. Guthrie, dial toll free, 800-225-5324. Repeat, 800-225-5324. There is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward. And if you wish to remain anonymous, 5208-827463-52088 2746 3. 1.2 plus million dollars on the table. And remember, a conviction not required, an arrest not required for you to get the reward. Tonight, we remember an American hero. Reserve Deputy Heather Avery, Jefferson County County Constables, Texas, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving husband, Troy, and daughter Caitlyn sentenced to life without her mother. American hero Deputy Heather Avery. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight and keeping the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight. I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend. This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.