Mayhem in the Morgue: Cold Cases, Lover’s Lane Murder, and the Brown’s Chicken Massacre

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: Mayhem in the Morgue: Cold Cases, Lover’s Lane Murder, and the Brown’s Chicken Massacre
Date: May 17, 2026
Host: Dr. Kendall CR Foreign (substitute host on this episode)

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode, guest-hosted by Dr. Kendall CR Foreign, dives deeply into the forensic elements and profound emotional impact of notorious cold cases that have recently seen breakthroughs, with particular focus on the Lover’s Lane murders in Houston, Texas, and the infamous Brown’s Chicken Massacre in Illinois. Dr. Foreign shares both detailed forensic context and personal anecdotes from his career as a medical examiner, exploring not just how cases are solved but what the science reveals about the crimes themselves, and how the field of forensic pathology is challenged by courtroom dynamics and evolving legal standards.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Lover’s Lane Murders: Forensic Perspective

(03:17–15:11)

• Case Overview: On August 22, 1990, Cheryl Henry and Andy Atkinson were murdered in a secluded area of Houston known as “Lover’s Lane.” Their bodies were found bound, with incised wounds to the neck.
• Scene & Discovery: Security found their abandoned car; subsequent search led to the recovery of both bodies, evidence of sexual assault (in Henry’s case), and their throats cut with a sharp implement.
• Forensic Detail:
  • Incised wounds are longer than deep, created by sharp implements.
  • The neck contains major blood vessels, including the jugular veins and carotid arteries, both only millimeters below the surface, making such wounds swiftly fatal through exsanguination.
  • Bleeding out can occur within minutes when either carotid or jugular is severed (“Blood loss from a singular jugular vein incision can be between 400 to 600 milliliters…bleeding out in under five minutes.” — Dr. Foreign, 07:07).
• Victims’ Final Moments: Both would have suffered immense pain, moved quickly through stages of hemorrhagic shock, and, as Dr. Foreign notes, “the fear that they would have had…can never be measured” (13:35).
• How the Case Broke: Remained unsolved for 36 years; in 2026, DNA from the scene was matched to an earlier sexual assault case involving a suspect named Parrot, whose DNA had been stored but who was never previously charged. Parrot allegedly posed as a police officer to gain compliance from victims.

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2. The Evolution and Use of DNA in Cold Casework

(18:22–22:40)

• Autopsy Evidence Collection: DNA and trace evidence (hair, fibers, swabs from trauma sites and body cavities) are collected at autopsy and can be preserved for decades or even centuries.
• History of Forensic DNA:
  • "DNA profiling was first used…in 1987…to catch Colin Pitchfork" (18:58).
  • Innovations like PCR allow tiny, degraded samples to be amplified and analyzed.
  • Advances have steadily increased the rate of cold case resolution.

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3. The Brown’s Chicken Massacre: Detailed Recount and Forensic Breakthrough

(22:40–32:37)

• Case Overview:
  • On January 8, 1993, seven employees of Brown’s Chicken in Palatine, Illinois, were murdered during a robbery-turned-massacre.
  • The killers, James Degorski and Juan Luna, dined before donning gloves and methodically executing staff with both gun and knife.
• Key Forensic Moment:
  • Napkins with saliva from the chicken dinner left by the killers were saved but could not be analyzed until DNA methods improved years later.
  • A key breakthrough came in 2002 when the girlfriend of one perpetrator came forward, leading to the collection of DNA which matched the preserved sample on the chicken bone. “They obtained DNA samples…matched to what was recovered from the chicken bone. The perpetrators…had finally been caught.” (28:58)
• Crime Scene Memoir:
  • The process included careful preservation of crime scene items, with specific attention to food and packaging that later proved pivotal.
• Personal Reminiscence:
  • Dr. Foreign describes the challenge and “trial by fire” of inheriting and testifying in old cases as the newest attending examiner in Cook County, stressing the importance of quantifying evidence in clear, measurable terms to withstand courtroom scrutiny.
    • Notable anecdote: Learning never to use ambiguous terms like “massive” when describing blood loss to a jury.
      • “After that trial, I made sure…to always quantify the amount…never used mild, moderate, severe or massive.” (33:16)

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4. Legal Nuances: The Substitute Medical Examiner and the Sixth Amendment

(32:37–38:55)

• Challenge in Cold Cases:
  • Often, the original medical examiner retires or dies before trial; substitutes must testify to evidence.
• Courtroom Lesson:
  • Substitute examiners must independently review original data and form their own opinions, not just “regurgitate” earlier testimony.
• Supreme Court Context:
  • Smith vs. Arizona affirmed that the accused have the right to cross-examine witnesses against them; if the first examiner is unavailable, substitutes must base opinions on independent review of the non-testimonial data.
• Notable Moment:
  • Dr. Foreign humorously recounts a courtroom confrontation about basing testimony on “faith,” concluding never to use that word under legal questioning again.
    • “The faith incident took a half an hour to resolve…I have never said I have faith again at trial.” (37:58)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the brutality of lover’s lane:
  “The thought of this is unimaginable and it can never be known what they truly went through, other than it was extremely horrible.”
  — Dr. Kendall CR Foreign, (13:35)

• On the impact of wound location:
  “The internal jugular vein is between 0.2 to 2 millimeters underneath the skin…and the internal carotid artery is approximately 7.36 millimeters under the skin. Both vessels are very close to the skin surface.”
  — Dr. Foreign, (06:18)

• On the realities of exsanguination:
  “Blood loss from a singular jugular vein incision can be between 400 to 600 milliliters…with complete bleeding out in under five minutes. If both jugulars are cut, bleeding out is even quicker.”
  — Dr. Foreign, (07:13)

• On evolving forensic technique:
  “DNA…if properly stored, can last for years, maybe even hundreds or thousands of years, which is helpful with cold cases.”
  — Dr. Foreign, (18:43)

• Courtroom “trial by fire”:
  “After that trial, I made sure on my cases that I always quantified the amount of blood or fluid…never used mild, moderate, severe or massive because there is just no definitions of what these terms mean.”
  — Dr. Foreign, (33:15)

• On the "faith" misstep in court:
  “He faith…no scientific fact, but faith. I ask you, do we convict someone on faith?...Needless to say, I have never said I have faith again at trial.”
  — Dr. Foreign, (36:53; 37:58)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:17 Lover’s Lane murders overview and forensic analysis
• 10:40 Forensic description of hemorrhagic shock and victim experience
• 13:25 Emotional/psychological trauma in murder victims
• 14:30 Break in the cold case: DNA match and suspect development
• 18:22 Forensic DNA collection and evolution in cold casework
• 22:40 Brown’s Chicken Massacre narrative begins
• 28:45 Breakthrough via preserved chicken bone DNA
• 32:37 Substitute MEs, legal standards, and courtroom stories
• 39:02 Smith v. Arizona and the confrontation clause explained

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Conclusion

Dr. Kendall CR Foreign delivers a gripping exploration of forensic science’s crucial role in solving cold cases, blending technical explanation with candid personal anecdotes from decades in the field. He shows how advances in DNA and keen attention to courtroom testimony detail have been pivotal in obtaining justice and closure for families—even when the cases span decades. The episode ultimately underlines the resilience of science, investigation, and the human drive for justice in the face of even the most appalling crimes.

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For all true crime and forensic fans, this episode provides a deep, unvarnished look into what really happens after the headlines fade, and how science—and humanity—bring cases to their bittersweet conclusion.

Transcript

[Dr. Kendall CR Foreign]

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[Jacob Goldstein]

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[Dr. Kendall CR Foreign]

episode includes the information about the death of individuals. If this sort of thing upsets you, this is not the episode for you. May I suggest you watch a movie? Maybe something like Night of the Living Dead. Welcome to Mayhem in the Morgue with your host, Dr. Kendall CR Foreign. Cold Cases, Lovers Lane Murders and the Browns Chicken Massacre Once Again Recently I was on the Nancy Gray show and we discussed the Lever's Lane murders from Houston, Texas, and there was a question that was brought up that I wanted to discuss a little more in depth. But first, let's go into the details of the Lovers lane murders. On August 22, 1990, Cheryl Henry and Andy Atkinson were murdered in a remote wooded area off Enclave Parkway near Briar Forest Drive in West Houston. They were parked in a cul de sac known as Enclave A, which was a wooded, secluded area where people would go to be romantic, hence the name Lovers Lane. What happened next is unknown, but the next day a Cisco Food security guard doing a routine patrol noticed Atkins car sitting for hours abandoned in the cul de sac. He eventually checked the car and he noticed Henry's purse on the passenger side floorboard and the keys still in the ignition. He found her driver's license, called the family, and they told him she had been reported missing. Police were alerted and the search began. Search dogs found Henry's naked body hidden under wooden boards in the woods. Her hands were tied behind her back, she had been sexually assaulted and her throat was slashed. They expanded their search and found Atkins body the next day about 150 yards away, propped up in a seated position. His hands were tied behind his back and another rope was wrapped around him and the tree going up over his neck. He had a slash wound of his neck that extended all the way down to his spinal column. The cause and manner of death in both cases were determined by the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office as sharp force injuries of the neck and homicide. Both of them were described as having their throats slashed or slit. What that means is they had large incised wounds across their neck. Incised wounds are created by sharp implements. The wound has a clean, smooth edge with no abrasions, and there's no evidence of soft tissue bridging, which you will see in blunt force injuries. The other key thing about an incised wound is it is longer than it is deep. The depth of Atkins injury was described as being all the way to the spinal column. A wound of this nature along the neck will involve skin, subcutaneous tissue and the strap muscles of the neck. This, of course, would be painful but survivable. The large muscle in the neck is the sternocleidomastoid muscle, and it lies on the front of the neck, extending to the sides, and partially overlies the main vascular structures, which are the internal jugular veins and internal carotid arteries. There's both a right and left version of these vessels. They lie next to each other, first starting out more towards the front of the neck and then proceeding more laterally, bookending the Adam's apple. The internal jugular vein is between 0.2 to 2 millimeters underneath the skin, and the internal carotid artery is approximately 7.36 millimeters under the skin. Both vessels are very close to the skin surface. The carotid brings blood from the heart to the brain, and the jugulars bring the blood back from the brain to the heart. Injuries to these vessels are a medical emergency, and injury to just one of them can result in death from bleeding out, also known as exsanguination. Blood loss from a singular jugular vein incision can be between 400 to 600 millimeters, or almost 12 to 20 ounces per minute, with complete bleeding out in under five minutes. If both jugulars are cut, bleeding out is even quicker. Blood loss from the carotid artery is between 500 and 700 milliliters, or 17 and 24 ounces per minute, and bleeding out can occur in as little as three minutes, with once again one vessel being cut, and again, if both are cut, the time is even shorter. Blood loss results in hypovolemic or hemorrhagic shock. On average, adult bodies contain 4.5 to 5.7 liters, or 1.2 to 1.5 gallons of blood, and the heart pumps about 2,000 gallons, or 7,500 liters of blood per day through the body. Hemorrhagic shock occurs in stages. The first Stage, or stage one, occurs when there is less than 15% of the blood volume lost, which is around 700 to 750 milliliters of blood. Generally, at this stage, there are minimal symptoms. Heart rate may be slightly elevated, but blood pressure and respiratory rate are normal. At stage two, there is 15 to 30% of the total blood volume loss, which is between 750 and 1,500 milliliters of the total blood volume. Heart rate and breathing go up. Blood pressure begins to drop. The person begins to feel cold. The skin starts becoming pale and cool and clammy. Feelings of anxiety, restlessness and mild confusion. Beginning at stage three, there are significant clinical changes. At this point, there is 30 to 40% of the total blood volume lost, which is between 1500 and 2000 milliliters. The blood pressure drops significantly. The heart compensates by beating even faster, getting over 120 beats per minute. Breathing becomes shallow. The individual is markedly confused, anxious and has a feeling of impending doom. Pulses are weak and the extremities are cold. The final Stage, or stage four, there is greater than 40% blood loss, which is greater than 2,000 milliliters. This is a critical, life threatening condition. There is a profound drop in the blood pressure. The heart rate exceeds 140 beats per minute. The respiratory rate is elevated. Skin is cold. The lips are pale and blue. The person experiences severe confusion and agitation, followed by tiredness, eventually coma, organ failure and death. Any injuries to these vessels of the neck are considered a medical emergency. The next structure of importance in this area is the vagus nerve. It lies more towards the Adam's apple or larynx and trachea, which will be discussed next. It's behind the internal jugular vein and internal carotid artery and is on top of the spinal cord. It's a major nerve structure and is involved in the control of heart rate, blood pressure, respiration and also plays a role in immune responses, mucus and saliva production, skin and muscle sensations, urine output, as well as speech, taste and even your mood. When it's transected, it can cause rapid irregular heartbeat, hoarseness, difficulty swallowing, digestive issues such as bloating and constipation or diarrhea, and changes in blood pressure, as well as excessive sweating, anxiety and depression. The center of the neck contains the other structures of importance and these are the larynx or voice box and the trachea or windpipe. And behind them, the esophagus. Deep to the esophagus is the spinal column. Let's start with the larynx. It's above the trachea. It's part of the upper respiratory tract bringing air to the lungs. It's composed of framework of cartilages, including the thyroid cartilage, which is also known as the Adam's apple. This overlies the vocal cords which are the main part of the larynx. There is also the cricoid cartilage and the epiglottis, which is a flap that covers the larynx when you swallow food. The trachea is immediately below the larynx and it is a tube shaped structure composed of C shaped cartilaginous rings. Its purpose is to conduct the air the rest of the way to the mainstem bronchi that is attached to the lungs. The larynx is usually 1cm under the skin surface and the trachea is 1-2cm from the skin surface. When an incised wound cuts through the larynx, if it goes through the thyroid cartilage, it will actually cut the vocal cords and stop the person from being able to speak or scream. When it goes through the trachea, it will create a new hole in which air passes through. But often, because of the hemorrhage associated with the wound, it will instead begin to fill up with blood. And if the person survives for any amount of time, they will begin to inhale blood and potentially could drown from it. On the Nancy Gray show, she asked me what Atkinson and Henry would have endured when they were murdered. I discussed it on her show, but I will go over it again here. They both would have experienced pain as the incised wound cut through the skin, subcutaneous tissue, muscle vasculature, larynxing, trachea. They would have felt a sharp burning pain followed by a rapid loss of blood. They both would have gone through the various stages of hemorrhagic shock, becoming cold, thirsty, confused, feeling their heart rate greatly speed up until they lost consciousness after less than a few minutes. Both were tied up and Henry was also sexually assaulted before she was killed. And evidently Atkinson had potentially watched this happen. The part of what they experience that can't truly be measured is the fear that they would have had going through this as each one of them was killed. Henry dying first after being sexually assaulted would have experienced the fear, pain and suffering of that. But Atkinson would have had this further compounded by having to watch what happened to Henry and then know what his fate would be. The thought of this is unimaginable and it can never be known what they truly went through, other than it was extremely horrible. The Lever's Lane case went unsolved for nearly 36 years until March of 2026 when Houston Police officers received a tip naming an individual by the last name of Parrot. He had been involved in a previous sexual assault in 1996 and his DNA was obtained from the charge, but he was no billed by a grand jury, meaning they found insufficient evidence to charge him with a crime. One of the things that Parrott would do in perpetrating his crimes was to pose as a police officer, which may have been what he had done during the of Atkinson and Henry, which would explain why he was so easily able to subdue them both by tying them up. The DNA sample that was taken in 1996 was loaded into CODIS, which is short for Combined DNA Index System, which is maintained by the FBI, which is a national DNA database and software that stores, matches and links DNA profiles from convicted offenders, arrestees and crime scenes. It allows local, state and federal crime labs to compare DNA profiles from suspects and connect them with cold cases. With the tip that the Houston police received, the DNA that was taken from the murder scene in 1993 as well as from the autopsy was then compared with the DNA from this 1996 sexual assault case and it was found to be a match. So now that they have a potential suspect, the case can go to trial. The and hopefully this cold case will come to a close.

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[Dr. Kendall CR Foreign]

DNA is collected along with trace evidence at the time of autopsy when requested. The procedures for doing this have changed little in the 26 years that I have been a medical examiner. Typically, a body is received in a sealed body bag. The seal is broken and the body bag is opened. The body is photographed as is and then the process for obtaining DNA and Trace evidence begins. Trace evidence can be hair, fibers, papers, anything that's kind of stuck to the body that may be of evidentiary value. Head hair and pubic hair is combed and the combings are saved. Then the head and pubic hair is pulled from multiple sites, making sure to get a root structure. DNA swabs, which aren't long, Q tip like swabs that are either used dry or coated with normal saline, are rubbed on suspected areas of trauma, such as in strangulations, the neck. They're also rubbed across the knuckles of the hands, underneath the fingernails of the fingers, and other areas of interest. Fingernails are also clipped and retained swabs are placed in the oral, anal and vaginal cavities in an attempt to get further DNA evidence, particularly semen. With males, the shaft of the penis is also swabbed. Once all the DNA samples and trace evidence is obtained, they are packaged, sealed, and then turned over to law enforcement, who takes them to the crime lab that they work with. After all this is done, then the actual autopsy is performed. The DNA, once it reaches the crime lab, if properly stored, can last for years, maybe even hundreds or thousands of years, which is helpful with cold cases. The use of DNA to solve cases is relatively a recent development. DNA profiling was first used to solve murders in 1987 when it was used to catch Colin Pitchfork, who had raped and murdered two teenage girls in the United Kingdom. It was also used in the United States to convict Tommy Lee Andrews in Florida, who had burglarized and raped a woman at night life point. Since that time, DNA techniques have continued to improve. In the 90s, there was the advent of polymerase chain reaction, which is a process consisting of thermal cycling that creates millions and billions of copies of a minuscule amount of DNA, which allows labs to create a clear, readable genetic profile from a sample that before this point would have been too small. Also in the 90s, the use of short tandem repeats was developed as well, and this offers an even higher level of discrimination. Recently, more advances such as massively parallel sequencing, which sequences millions of DNA or RNA fragments simultaneously, have been developed. With these advances, more and more cold cases are being solved all the time. In my career, I've experienced one very famous cold case being solved, and that was the infamous Brown's Chicken massacre that occurred in Cook County. If you're not already familiar with it, let's go into the details a little bit more. To start with, Brown's Chicken is a fast food chain in the Chicagoland area specializing in fried chicken. It was opened in 1949 by its namesake, John and Belva Brown. And as their website states, their fried chicken is a little different because it's made with buttermilk batter and fried in cottonseed oil, delivering a delicious golden crunch on the outside with a moist and flavorful inside. They also have other food options as well as a number of tasty sides. I have eaten at one of their restaurants a time or two while I lived in Chicago. The chicken was good, but I really enjoyed the fried okra and mushrooms. The Browns Chicken Massacre occurred on January 8, 1993 in Palatine, Illinois, which is in the northwest suburbs of Chicago within Cook County. The day had been like any other day. There were seven employees at the restaurant that day. Lynn and Richard Elenfeld, who were the owners of this particular Browns Guadalupe Maldonado, a recently hired cook Thomas Meninez, a chicken breader Marcus Nellis, who was a manager in training and part time high school students Michael Castro Enrico Solis, who worked the cash register. It was getting late in the evening. They were beginning to start the process of closing, taking out the trash and cleaning up when two individuals walked in and ordered a four piece chicken dinner. The meal consisted of four pieces of their signature buttermilk batter, fried chicken with a mix of breasts, thighs, legs and a wing, served with two regular sides, fried fries and coleslaw, and of course a fresh buttermilk biscuit. It was purchased at 9:08pm and cost $6.69. It was the last meal purchased that night. The two individuals who bought it were James Dagorski and Juan Luna. They sat down and Luna ate some of the chicken. After a short period of time, Luna wiped his greasy hands on one of the napkins. Then both he and Dagorski put on latex gloves underneath the booth they were sitting in. Then they both got up and Dagorski said to Luna, let's do it. They threw the remainder of the meal into one of the trash cans, walked to the front counter where the cash registers were, and Dagorski announced that they were robbing the restaurant and began rounding up employees. They had a hunting knife with them and a.38 caliber revolver and they weren't there just to rob the store. Luna had told Dagorski he wanted to see what it felt like to kill someone. Luna first approached Rico Solis, who was mopping the floor and told him to go to the back of the restaurant. Dagorski then fired a shot and told everyone to get on the floor. Tom Meninez at that point tried to jump over the counter trying to escape, and Dagorski shot him in the back and then dragged him into one of the freezers. Dagorski then said to another person to get up and more shots were fired. At this point, Richard Elenfeld had also been killed. Dagorski dragged his body into the same cooler as Menennez. Luna was on the opposite side of the restaurant on the east end, watching over four of the other workers, including Elenfelt's wife Lynn. They were all facing downward on the floor near the walk in cooler. At some point, Dagorski walked over and ordered three of the people into the freezer. Marcus Nielsen at that moment ran for the rear door behind Luna, but Luna pushed him back and then hit him in the head. Nielsen, who was at this point drowsy and wobbly, was then put in the freezer. Dzorski evidently handed Luna the knife and told him to take Lynn Elenfeld to go open the safe. Luna stated she was very scared, hands trembling as they walked to the room with a safe in it. When they got there, she stuck the key in the safe and opened it. He said to her, turned around and then he cut her throat. He stated the reason that he did this was he just got caught up in the moment. He stated she lay there on the floor gargling and then ran out of breath. At that point, Dagorski came over and dragged her into the east freezer and herded the remaining employees in it. He handed Luna the revolver and told him to fire a warning shot into the freezer, which he did. Luna said that the remaining employees were all yelling, don't shoot us. Please don't shoot us. They mopped up the blood on the floor and then Dagorski returned to the freezer, opened the door and began firing multiple shots at the individuals still alive in it. He even reloaded the gun and continued shooting. After it was all done, he went into the freezer and kicked the bodies to make sure they were dead and possibly stabbed one in the stomach. Dagorski and Luna then shut off the circuit breakers, causing the lights to go out, shut the doors and left. They then met up with Dagorski's girlfriend at the time, Ann Lockett, and told her what they had done. They told her to keep her mouth shut. When the murdered individuals did not come home that evening from their job, families became worried. Eventually, police checked out the Brown's Chicken and made a horrible discovery. They found the bodies of all the individuals who had been shot and stabbed in the Brown's Chicken. Shortly after this, the crime scene processing began. While examining the scene, one of the investigators saw the register receipt on one of the cash registers showed the last meal purchased at 9:08pm she also noticed that although the garbage receptacle on the west side of the dining room had a relatively fresh bag in it, it contained a cardboard box with four pieces of chicken, scattered french fries, biscuits, coleslaw and paper products, including four used napkins. She also noted some of the chicken pieces had been partially consumed. She and her colleagues removed the plastic bag, set it on the floor so they could compare the cashier to serve receipt with the general contents of the garbage bag to see if it appeared to be consistent. After going through it, they determined that the contents of the trash bag and the receipt were in good alignment. They separated the food items and the paper items and sealed them in paper bags and transported them to the laboratory. They were able to get fingerprints from the four napkins found in the bag, but none of the fingerprints matched a known individual. The paper napkins and the chicken bones in the garbage bag were then taken into an evidence room, and that's where they stayed. A few times over the years, they attempted to get DNA samples from one of the chicken bones, but the amount of DNA potentially present was too small for the type of testing needed. In 1998, tests were done on the saliva of the partially eaten chicken bone and they were able to get a DNA profile, but there was no successful match. And that's where the case went cold. Four years later, though, on March 25, 2002, Lockett allegedly revealed to another high school friend the facts that Decorski, her now ex boyfriend, had told her. Lockett even provided key details that no one outside the investigation knew. Which one of them being that one of the workers had vomited french fries. Her friend encouraged her to come forward and tell police what she knew. And Lockette did do this. The police arrested Dagorski and Luna and they obtained DNA samples of their saliva. This was matched to what was recovered from the chicken bone. The perpetrators of this massacre had finally been caught.

[Metabolism Ignite Representative]

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[Public Investing Representative]

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[Jacob Goldstein]

is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? Business software is expensive and when you buy software from lots of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites to sales to inventory to accounting. All linked and talking to each other. Check out Odoo at O D O o dot com. That's O D O o dot com.

[Bethenny Frankel]

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[Dr. Kendall CR Foreign]

not going back when the trial started, it had been nine years since the incident occurred and some of the investigators, police officers, crime scene technicians had been promoted or left the area. And most notably Dr. Stein, the first chief medical examiner of Cook county, who had performed some of the autopsies from the massacre, had not just retired, but he had also died. It's not an uncommon occurrence when a medical examiner dies or moves away that another medical examiner from the office will be used to testify in their place to the autopsy findings. In fact, that is how I got started in testifying at trials. In my first year of fellowship, I testified in several cases for doctors that had either left the Cook County Medical Examiner's office or had died. I was the newest member of the staff, so it was always my job to take over the old cases and I did this a lot. One of the main reasons for this was right after I arrived at the office. The county had offered a buyout to all the employees where individuals could pay a sum of money and retire early, to which a number of doctors opted for this. And because of this we were short staffed. So I was always testifying. In the entire nine years I worked there, there was only nine months where we actually were full staffed. So I was always very busy and like I said, since I was the newest attending, I was often assigned one of these cases to get experience testifying. It was in a sense, a trial by fire. My training consisted of accompanying one of the senior doctors to court and in about a month later I started testifying on this case. I started out with simple gunshot wounds at first, progressing to more complicated cases later on. It was an excellent experience and I quickly learned what was important when testifying and what not to say. As an example, I learned terms like mild, moderate, severe or massive were not good to use. I was testifying on a case in which the doctors stated in the report there was a mass of hemothorax, meaning there was a lot of blood in the chest cavity. At trial, the lawyer said, doctor, how much is massive? When asked this, I had no idea. Before I could say anything, the lawyer then said, well, what is it? Is it 10ml? 20? 50? Hundred? What is it? What is massive? He had me there. I had no idea what massive was. And I stated I did not know what the previous doctor perceived as massive. The defense attorney then said, can you tell the members of the jury what the medical literature defines as massive? I again said I was unaware of a definition in the medical literature. He then said, so you just don't know, do you? To which the defense attorney objected and told the judge asked and answered. The judge agreed and told the defense attorney to move on. After that trial, I made sure on my cases that I always quantified the amount of blood or fluid or whatever that I found in the body. And I never used mild, moderate, severe or massive because there is just no definitions of what these terms mean. One of the other memorable vocabulary word moments while testifying was during a murder trial. It was at least my own case this time. It was a woman who was arguing with her boyfriend about her heroin addiction. It started out as a verbal altercation that escalated into a physical fight and eventually ended with her force onto her knees looking into the barrel of her boyfriend's.357 Magnum. He had the last word in the argument by pulling the trigger of the gun, shooting her in the forehead at a near contact range. At the trial, the defense attorney made an argument that she was an out of control drug addict and her death was not a premeditated murder, but a crime of passion from a partner who was tired of the never ending abuse. He went on to state that even on the day she died, she was probably high and that is where I came in. After being questioned about her execution style gunshot wound by the prosecution, the defense attorney glossed over this and went straight to the toxicology findings. He had made a mistake thinking her toxicology showed she was high on multiple drugs. What he didn't understand was he had read the reference ranges thinking that she was very high on drugs, but instead her toxicology was completely negative. When I pointed this out, the defense attorney spun around facing the jury and said, well doctor, how do you know that? The toxicology lab didn't make a big mistake and there was actually drugs in her system. I answered this with I have faith that the toxicology lab did their job correctly. The defense attorney jumped on the word faith like a cornered injured animal and reacted violently. He did a ballerina like spin. He spun so fast his light blue suit jacket fluttered off from his back. He faith. The jury raised one fist high in the air and then said, faith. He has faith. No scientific fact, but faith. I ask you, do we convict someone on faith? I saw this as an opening to respond and said, I'm sorry, it's not faith, but instead I know the toxicology lab did not make a mistake because they're an accredited lab and to my knowledge had not made a mistake on any of my cases. And even if they had, it wouldn't have changed the fact that the decedent had been forced onto her knees and then shot in the forehead as she was facing her boyfriend. The lawyer said to the judge I was being argumentative. The judge cautioned me and told me to only answer the questions asked. The defense attorney turned, faced me and said, nothing further, your honor. The district attorney did a quick redirect saying that the toxicology was negative. Correct, doctor? To which I responded yes. He then said he had no further questions. The defense was asked if they had any further questions, to which they responded no, and I was told I was allowed to leave. The faith incident took a half an hour to resolve on the stand and needless to say, I have never said I have faith again at trial. This practice of supplying a substitute medical examiner has been how it's worked almost my entire career. And it was only until recently that this practice came under fire with a case known as Smith vs. Arizona. It is a Supreme Court case about the fairness in criminal trials, focusing on the Sixth Amendment's confrontation clause. The Sixth Amendment to the U.S. constitution guarantees essential rights to individuals facing criminal persecution, ensuring a fair, speedy and public trial by an impartial jury. There are a number of key rights guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment, which includes the confrontation clause. This clause guarantees the accused the right to confront and cross examine the witness testifying against them. Smith VA Decided the confrontational clause is a legal right and when someone is accused of a crime, they should have the chance to see and talk to the witnesses who are against them, which means they can ask questions and make sure the witnesses are honest. The right helps to make sure that evidence against the accused is fair and can be trusted. So what could be done if the original medical examiner was not available and the answer is a substitute medical examiner can be used, but they have to at minimum independently review the original data and records and form their own independent conclusions and not just regurgitate the information from the original report and the original medical examiner. If the original data and notes that were generated are determined to be non testimonial, meaning they were not created specifically for trial, then substitute expert can likely rely on them when testifying. Also, the substitute expert cannot testify that the absent medical examiner accurately performed the autopsy or that their findings were correct. Instead, they can render an opinion as to if they feel the autopsy was done correctly and was useful in coming to their conclusions. In closing, these cold cases are finally being solved, prosecuted, and currently it doesn't matter if the original medical examiner is available because someone can still testify for them, which finally provides the families of the victims the closure that they rightfully deserve. And that brings us to the end of the episode. I hope you learned something and I hope you were entertained until the next time.

[Metabolism Ignite Representative]

A doubly certified obgyn and endocrinologist doctor, a naturopathic doctor and a certified health coach walk into a room. What do they talk about? GLP1 of course, but more specifically the difference between the synthetic version of your body's own hormone that are prescribed by doctors nationwide versus this is Metabolism Ignite product which naturally increases your body's GLP1 by 61% GLP1 side effects can lead to nausea, fatigue and muscle loss, whereas Metabolism Ignite is powered by plants and there are no side effects. Some long term results of GLP1 links to weight gain after stopping the synthetic drug which has been proven in multiple studies. In comparison to Metabolism Ignite there is no weight regain and this product supports metabolism Metabolic health. Join the 50,000 customers by skipping the needles and taking two capsules of metabolism Ignite a day. For sustained weight loss with plant based therapy, visit V E R A C I T Y Health co promo code iheart for up to 65% off your order today.

[Jacob Goldstein]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at o d o o.com that's o d o o.com this

[Bethenny Frankel]

is Bethenny Frankel from Just Be With Bethenny Frankel. Let me be blunt. Most dog food is junk. It just is. And I'm not feeding junk to Bigg Smalls. That is why they eat just food for dogs. It's real, 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize. Not mystery pellets pretending to be healthy. And once I switched, the difference was obvious. Better digestion, better skin, more energy. Dogs who actually feel good instead of just surviving dinner. Here's the thing. You care about quality. You make an intentional choice to be healthy. So why are you gambling with your dog's health? So let's think about our furry babies. Go to justfoodfordogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code. Just try it. Because once you see the difference, you're not going back.

[Public Investing Representative]

You ever wonder how far an EV can take you on one charge? Well, most people drive about 40 miles a day, which means you can do all daily stuff no problem. Go to work, grab the kids at school, get the groceries and still have enough charge to visit your in laws in the next county. But they don't need to know that. And the best part? You won't have to buy gas at all. The way forward is electric. Explore EVs that fit your [e-mail]

[Metabolism Ignite Representative]

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