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[00:00]
Nancy Grace
This is an I heart podcast, Guaranteed human crime stories with Nancy Grace. Mom Lindsay Clancy's three taught children are dead. The jury shocked when they visit the grim crime scene. Remember, all three children were herded into the basement and murdered with exercise bands. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Lindsey Clancy Googles ways to kill.
[00:48]
Dr. Katherine Berndorf
So this is top three worst crime scenes I've ever been to. But I've never seen police officers weeping
[00:55]
Claudia King
at a crime scene the way I did that night.
[00:57]
Nancy Grace
I hear the defense lawyer saying, she's been crying. She should be crying. They're dead.
[01:04]
Attorney questioning witness
What did you do once you got inside the home?
[01:09]
Patrick Clancy
I started taking my boots off.
[01:11]
Attorney questioning witness
Was there anything you noticed?
[01:13]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah. The house is really quiet.
[01:15]
Attorney questioning witness
Is that unusual?
[01:16]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[01:18]
Attorney questioning witness
And when you, you realized it was really quiet, what did you do?
[01:23]
Patrick Clancy
I called out.
[01:25]
Attorney questioning witness
And who did you call out to?
[01:27]
Patrick Clancy
Everyone.
[01:28]
Attorney questioning witness
Did anyone answer?
[01:30]
Patrick Clancy
No.
[01:30]
Attorney questioning witness
After you called out and no one answered, what did you do next?
[01:36]
Patrick Clancy
I think I. I don't know the order, but I called down in the basement and no one answered. And then I called Lindsay to see if she was home because I looked out and I, I couldn't see her car, but it's because it was dark and her car's black.
[01:55]
Attorney questioning witness
Okay, so when you, you say you, you called down to the basement. When you approached the basement door, do you remember if it was open or shut?
[02:03]
Patrick Clancy
It was shut.
[02:05]
Attorney questioning witness
So did you open it and yell down?
[02:06]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[02:07]
Attorney questioning witness
And there was no response, correct?
[02:09]
Nancy Grace
That's right. Friends at East Idaho News in the courtroom. Court went down all day today. And we are bringing you the latest from the court courthouse. That is Lindsay, Clancy's husband on the stand. When she heard the 911 call, which we are not playing tonight with the dad, he asked the court not to release it publicly. We have it. We're not playing it. It is just too upsetting. When she heard it, she breaks down in tears. But tears aside, the prosecution said she knew very well what she was doing. Waiting, in fact, engineering her husband to leave the home to go get takeout food, then telling him to go to CVS pharmacy. He called her in the middle of the murders, according to the prosecution, and she acted normal on the phone. He is on the stand.
[03:07]
Attorney questioning witness
Listen, after you called Lindsey and didn't get a response, what did you do next?
[03:13]
Patrick Clancy
I started checking upstairs.
[03:15]
Attorney questioning witness
And where did you check upstairs
[03:19]
Patrick Clancy
first? The bathroom. I thought maybe they were taking baths, but there was no one there.
[03:25]
Attorney questioning witness
And then where did you go?
[03:26]
Patrick Clancy
The kids, Bedrooms.
[03:28]
Attorney questioning witness
Was there anyone in the kids bedrooms?
[03:29]
Shannon Hill
No.
[03:31]
Attorney questioning witness
And then did you go to your bedroom?
[03:33]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[03:33]
Attorney questioning witness
And were you able to get into your bedroom right away?
[03:36]
Patrick Clancy
No, the door was locked. And that's when I knew something was wrong.
[03:42]
Attorney questioning witness
When you unlocked the door to your bedroom, did you go in?
[03:46]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[03:48]
Attorney questioning witness
And what did you see when you opened the door and went in?
[03:52]
Patrick Clancy
I just saw blood everywhere. And the window is open. It was everywhere. It was. It looked like it was sprayed almost with like a hose. And there was a huge puddle in the middle of the room. And it was sprayed all over the. Pretty much every surface. I remember it was on the doorknob.
[04:12]
Nancy Grace
Dear Lord in heaven, can you imagine coming home, you call out for your children. Nobody answers. Everything's dark. You start looking for them. And in the words of Patrick Clancy, you see blood as if it was sprayed with a hose on the wall. Blood as if it's sprayed with a hose. A garden hose. That courtroom was dead silent. You could have heard a pin drop as he goes on in his testimony describing the discovery of his children's. His three children's bodies with cords, exercise bands still wrapped around their necks.
[05:05]
Patrick Clancy
I saw Cora.
[05:06]
Attorney questioning witness
And how did she look?
[05:09]
Patrick Clancy
She had a band around her neck.
[05:12]
Attorney questioning witness
And was that an exercise band?
[05:14]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[05:15]
Attorney questioning witness
And do you recall whether she was. What position she was in, whether face up or face down?
[05:23]
Patrick Clancy
She's face down.
[05:25]
Attorney questioning witness
And when you saw her in that condition, what did you do?
[05:30]
Patrick Clancy
I immediately ran over and tried to take the band off.
[05:33]
Attorney questioning witness
Were you able to get the band off?
[05:35]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[05:35]
Attorney questioning witness
Was she responsive?
[05:37]
Patrick Clancy
No, I saw Callan.
[05:39]
Attorney questioning witness
And where was he?
[05:40]
Patrick Clancy
He was next to her.
[05:42]
Attorney questioning witness
And how did he appear?
[05:45]
Patrick Clancy
He had a band around his neck.
[05:47]
Attorney questioning witness
Sorry?
[05:47]
Patrick Clancy
He had a band around his neck.
[05:49]
Attorney questioning witness
And did you remove that as well?
[05:51]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[05:51]
Attorney questioning witness
And do you recall what position he was in?
[05:54]
Patrick Clancy
Same as Cora.
[05:55]
Attorney questioning witness
After you removed the band from Callan's neck, what did you do next?
[06:01]
Patrick Clancy
I tried to find Dawson.
[06:04]
Attorney questioning witness
And where did you go?
[06:06]
Patrick Clancy
I looked in the bathroom and on the other side of the couch, and then I went to the other side of the basement and he was in my office.
[06:15]
Attorney questioning witness
And when you saw Dawson, what condition was he in?
[06:21]
Patrick Clancy
I. I knew he was gone.
[06:24]
Attorney questioning witness
And did he also have a band around his neck?
[06:26]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[06:27]
Attorney questioning witness
And did you remove that band?
[06:29]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[06:29]
Nancy Grace
From our friends at East Idaho News, joining us, an allstar panel including Shannon Hill on the case from the very beginning. At Shannon Hill News, Dave Mack and Dr. Katherine Berndorf. But to Dr. Kendall Crowns. Joining us tonight, chief medical examiner in Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth. Never a lack of business in the Morgue in Fort Worth. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at tcu, and he is the star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the morgue. Dr. Kendall Krause, thank you for being with us tonight. Explain to me how the exercise bands, mommy's exercise bands, were used to strangle the three children and the pressure necessary, the force of exertion, to use them, as opposed to some other ligature such as a rope,
[07:33]
Dr. Kendall Krause
certainly. So to start with, an exercise band is kind of this stretchy latex rubber, so they stiff like a rope. You have to put pressure on it to hold that pressure on the neck. Now, I have a CPR dummy of a baby here with me, and what it is is the ligature is placed around the neck and then pulled tightly. But then mom's got to maintain that pressure to get the knot put into place, which is actually somewhat difficult to do. So once that's done, all you need is 4.4 pounds of pressure around the neck to cause enough pressure to blood not be getting to the brain. And as long as that's maintained for three to four minutes, you've killed the child. So it's a lot more difficult to use exercise bands when compared to a rope because of the stretchiness. So you have to really pull it taut and keep it taut, keep that pressure on the neck to kill the child or to kill whoever you're strangling with them.
[08:36]
Nancy Grace
The significance of that. Josh Colesrew joining us, veteran trial lawyer, criminal defense attorney, former U.S. attorney, star of podcast no contest. The significance of what Dr. Kendall Crowns has just said goes to intent. As you and I know as veteran trial lawyers, intent does not require a long, drawn out plan. The example I would give a jury is such as point poisoning someone over a period of weeks and months till they finally kill over dead. It can be formed intent in the blink of an eye, the twinkling of a moment, the time it takes to pull a trigger, much less the amount of time is described by Dr. Kendall Crowns it would require to exert force necessary to strangle asphyxiate all three children. That was time to form intent, is it not?
[09:29]
Josh Colesrew
Well, that's certainly what the prosecution is going to argue, Nancy. Now, you know, what we can't deny is that there was a killing of three innocent children, Cora, Dawson, and Callan. And there's nothing that the defense can do to try to brighten that picture. And when their father walked into that basement and discovered a horror that no parent should ever want to See, nothing I can say can soften that. But killing and murder aren't automatically the same thing under the law. You know, murder requires a criminally responsible mind. That isn't a technicality. It's one of the oldest and most humane principles in American justice. So the question isn't simply whether Lindsay's hands committed these acts. We know they did. The question is whether her mind, ravaged by severe mental disease, could appreciate the wrongfulness of these acts and control her conduct when they occurred. Now, this woman didn't wake up one morning after a normal life and calmly decide she no longer wanted her children. She saw doctors 19 times prior to this happening, and they prescribed her a whole litany of drugs. And I think you have them in alphabetic order or phonetical. Phonetical border or. And you look at this, it is a whole pharmacy full of drugs that. How could you not imagine that this could affect anybody taking these in a very negative way?
[10:59]
Nancy Grace
Let me remind you that the voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is not a defense under the law. Now, hold on. We are not bloodthirsty monsters that want a sick woman to be put in GP general population. I don't want that. What I want is a true verdict. And under the law. Under the law. I'm not the law. The law is enacted by the population. The law states that if you knew the difference between right and wrong at the time of the incident, you're not insane, period. Now she's claiming not guilty by reason of insanity. Straight out to Shannon Hill joining us, star of Shannon Hill News on Insta. Shannon, thank you for being with us. I understand that in addition to what we're learning right now, Clancy breaks down as a doctor describes efforts to revive the children. What happened. And I haven't even gotten to the jury going to the murder scene. But one thing at a time. What happened when a doctor described trying to revive the three children as he
[12:21]
Shannon Hill
was trying to revive the middle child? Dawson and Callum, both children were not showing any sort of brain function. And at one point, they did get a pulse from Callum, the youngest. And that was when they also realized his heart was no longer repeating and they could not survive. And, yes, Lindsey Clancy was crying in the courtroom when this was being talked about.
[12:46]
Nancy Grace
I'm very curious. It's. It's hard to watch the jury like a hawk when you're watching everything else in the courtroom. I remember feeling like I was watching a tennis match when I had time to reflect upon it in court, because I'd be watching the witness and looking at the jury and watching the witness and looking at the jury like that the whole time, it's very difficult to also look over at the defendant. I tried not to do that when I was trying a case. But I wonder how the jury reacted to Lindsay Clancy sobbing in court. Do we know Shannon?
[13:20]
Shannon Hill
They continue to ask the jury to not get emotionally attached to any of the evidence being shown, such as the pajamas, children's pajamas that were being shown, to remain emotionally detached from any and all of the testimony and evidence shown. One thing that I think is really compelling is when Patrick Fancy testifies on the stand and he says that he sees his wife on the ground. He goes to her and he asks her what happened. She says, I tried to kill myself. And then he asks her, where are the children? She says, in the basement. But then doesn't proceed to tell him to go help them or go check on his children or run to them. You know, they're in dire need.
[14:03]
Nancy Grace
Shannon hill, I find that very disturbing. Crime stories with nancy grace. Straight out to Dr. Kathryn Berndorf, reproductive psychiatrist. She is a postpartum expert. Joining us, she is CEO and medical director at the Motherhood center of New York, former board member, Postpartum Support International. She's the founding director of the Pain Whitney Women's Program at the Weill Cornell Medical center and author of what no One Tells you, A Guide to your Emotions from Pregnancy to motherhood and more. Dr. Berndorf, thank you for being with us. You have worked extensively with postpartum depression here. We are not talking about postpartum depression, which I believe is very common amongst new moms. We are talking about postpartum psychosis, as you know. Well, you know all about that. The law is very clear, though, that if she knew right from wrong at the time, no defense is going to be able to save her. So I've been studying this list of drugs. Sleep, anxiety, sleep and anxiety, antidepressant mood stabilizer, anxiety and sleep, sleep, antipsychotic sleep. It just, that's a lot. But she did take them voluntarily.
[15:46]
Dr. Katherine Berndorf
She may have, but typically as a psychopharmacologist, I'll tell you, you don't use all those drugs at the same time. One who's being treated for presumed illness is being treated with the best medications for that illness. So you go one at a time. You add more when needed, and sometimes you're cross tapering them if something doesn't work. So while I can't speak to this list or what she took, I can say that these meds don't cause psychosis they treat it and they treat postpartum depression. They treat many things as you pointed out. So it's hard to believe that anyone would be taking them all at the same time.
[16:30]
Nancy Grace
I agree, I agree. And I don't have evidence that she was taking them all at the same time. I'd also like to point out it had been 19 days since she had been released from psychiatric treatment at the time of the killings. Dr. Katherine Berndorf. I find it disturbing that when her husband finds her outside having jumped from a two story window. Let's show the home. When she jumped from that window, the husband approached her. I'd like to see the back of the home because that shows me the window from which she jumped. There it is. If you can show me at a distance. There he goes, the top right window. I believe she didn't even mention the children. She says, I, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, I tried to kill myself. He had to ask, well, what about the children? And then she told him they're in the basement. She didn't mention that they had exercise bands wrapped around their necks.
[17:32]
Dr. Katherine Berndorf
Yes. If it's determined that she is psychotic at the time of what happened. This is entirely consistent with this medical disease, also known as a mental illness called postpartum psychosis. It is entirely consistent where at some point you can be behaving absolutely normally or seemingly so, but have this belief in the back of your head that is intractable, that is absolutely believed by you as if you are doing the right thing for your children. Again, I can't speak to this, but we look at previous cases and we know that that is the belief of someone in the mind who's having a postpartum psychosis. They believe they are doing the right thing, potentially saving their children from some horrible fate. So this is consistent based on what I know as an expert and what I've seen.
[18:29]
Nancy Grace
What is postpartum psychosis as opposed to postpartum depression?
[18:36]
Dr. Katherine Berndorf
Depression is when one is struggling with low mood, disinterest in things, not sleeping, eating well, a bunch of somatic different kinds of symptoms. Psychosis is a break with reality. It is a completely different thing, different realm. And I think that it's not always easy to see. People aren't running around, you know, sort of stark raving mad. That's not what you see. You can see perfectly behaved people who have this kind of circumscribed in the back of the head. Belief that can be shared may not be shared. They may be behaving normally one minute and hours later, not because they are acting on potentially delusions, hallucinations. Command hallucinations to say potentially, you need to kill these kids to save them them. That is possible. We know it to be true. We've heard it before. These are distinctly different illnesses. Postpartum depression, one in five postpartum psychosis, one to two per thousand. It is uncommon, but it is there. And it is deadly when not treated so very different.
[19:54]
Nancy Grace
To Claudia King joining us, former law enforcement officer, domestic violence expert, host of no Contest podcast and star of Strong Enough podcast. Claudia, thank you for being with us. You can find her at Claudia m. As in mother king.com Claudia I'm going to speak what no one else has said yet because I've heard a lot about the mother's alleged psychosis and what she went through. Can we talk about the dead victims, the three children, what they went through? Nobody is talking about three lives gone, three children brutally murdered. Do I need to replay for you, Claudia King, where the dad said when he went in, it looked like someone had sprayed the wall with a garden hose, sprayed the wall with blood. Why is nobody talking about the terror the children went through as they are herded into the basement and one by one murdered by mommy who had to exert intense control and intense weight to use these elastic bands, which are, as I said, elastic, which are pliant. It's like strangling somebody with a rubber band as opposed to a ligature. It takes a lot of effort and force. The last thing they saw was their mother strangling them. Her face was a contorted. Was she having to exert herself to murder them? Why is nobody talking about them? CLAUDIA
[22:04]
Claudia King
because that's really hard, NANCY Nobody wants to talk about what those children suffered through. So we're going to talk about it right now. I think the fact that Dawson was found in a different room is because he ran away. He saw what was happening and he tried to get away from what his mother was doing to his siblings. And Nancy, the other thing I find very interesting is we know at least two of the children were found face down. She did not want to look at their faces when she did this to them. She didn't want them to see her face when she did this to them. And I think that is very telling. And when you put that band around the neck, they're still struggling for seconds to up to a minute before they become unconscious. So she's having to deal with that as well. What these children went through is absolutely horrible. And for their father to have to find them that way and take those bands from off their necks is absolutely horrendous.
[23:14]
Nancy Grace
Shannon, I wonder how the jury reacted when the evidence came out that she didn't mention or direct her husband to the children, that she only talked about herself and that the children, as Claudia King just rightly pointed out, were face down. They couldn't see their mother's face.
[23:36]
Shannon Hill
Well, we don't know what the jury did and said, but what I do know is that the public reaction to that is very upsetting. They are very concerned that there was no emotion there with Lindsey Clancy, that she was just so detached from her children that she just let her. She allowed her husband to wait with her while the paramedic came. That she never gave him a heads up that the children are in the basement and they need your help. And that is where the public is the most shocked.
[24:07]
Patrick Clancy
I ran downstairs and went outside. I just looked around in the backyard below that window and I saw Lindsey.
[24:14]
Attorney questioning witness
And where did you see her?
[24:16]
Patrick Clancy
She was face up in the backyard.
[24:19]
Attorney questioning witness
And where in the backyard was she?
[24:21]
Patrick Clancy
At the bottom of the window.
[24:23]
Attorney questioning witness
Where was she in relation to that window?
[24:25]
Patrick Clancy
Directly below it.
[24:27]
Attorney questioning witness
Down here by the window.
[24:28]
Patrick Clancy
Well, yep, she had deep cuts on her wrists and she had a red line across her neck. I wasn't sure what it was at first, but she cut her neck.
[24:43]
Nancy Grace
From our friends at East Idaho news straight to Dr. Kendall Crowns, Chief medical examiner, Tarrant County. How many cases have I seen? I'm trying to figure out how many. I can't count them all. Where someone commits homicide and then claim they were going to kill themselves but they didn't. Over and over and over you can wipe out the whole family. And I've seen this in men and women, but when it comes to killing themselves, somehow that doesn't work.
[25:19]
Dr. Kendall Krause
Yes, it does happen occasionally, especially when parents kill their children, they attempt suicide. Often you see it when boyfriends murder their wives or something like that situation murder girlfriends. I mean, they attempt to cover up the fact that they did it by attempting suicide. Often their suicide attempts are superficial, so they don't cut deep into a vessel or they don't cut deep enough to kill themselves. And you get this injuries but you don't see them dying. So you got to wonder were they really meaning to kill themselves? Now jumping out of a second story window, if she had gone head first, she might have achieved what she was going for. But my assumption is she went feet first and that's why she's a paraplegic at this time. So again, Another unsuccessful suicide attempt. And you have to wonder, did she really mean to die?
[26:11]
Nancy Grace
Shannon Hill, what is her vocation? What does Lindsey Clancy do for a living when she worked?
[26:19]
Shannon Hill
So she was a labor and delivery nurse. So she is, she was and is very familiar with women who are going through pregnancy, delivery.
[26:28]
Nancy Grace
And so let me understand this to Catherine, Dr. Catherine Berndorf. Dr. Berndorf, this is a woman that was in and out of the pediatric unit every day in labor and delivery, and she murders her three children. I I am tempted to point out the irony of that, but I'm more interested in it in a probative sense. What, if anything, does it prove regarding her knowledge of how to kill someone and how not to kill herself?
[27:03]
Dr. Katherine Berndorf
I would reframe it and say what you're seeing is the idea that someone who has knowledge of labor and delivery or someone in the field, the profession, didn't know what was happening, that there's not enough education. I can't tell you the number of people we treat at the Motherhood center, professionals in the field and other very respectable fields who don't know what's happening to them. There's stigma, there's shame, there's lack of education, lack of access to treatment. We see this all the time. And when they get to us at the Motherhood center, they've tried to get help many, many times. They've been turned away, their insurances haven't paid, and they are, frankly just burned out of trying and still ill. But they're defeated. And it's very hard to access this. So there's nothing. You know, it is ironic, as you put it, but understandable from where I sit, that this can happen to anyone in the field or anywhere else.
[28:13]
Nancy Grace
Dave Mack joining me, Crime Stories, investigative Reporter detail for Dr. Katherine Berndorf. How Clancy had sought treatment.
[28:23]
Dave Mack
NANCY Lindsey Clancy sought treatment many times for how she felt, psychologically speaking, depression and things like that. In particular, Nancy beyond the 13 prescriptions that doctors were prescribing, she checked herself in to McLean Hospital for inpatient psychiatric treatment. We're talking days before this event happened, January 1st to January 5th of 2020, she was in the hospital. Her medications were being adjusted. She requested discharge before the end of treatment. So she wanted help and she sought out help. But then before clinicians cleared her to go, she checked herself out and she was discharged and went home. And we know what happened after that. Previous to that, NANCY she had constantly been seeking some type of treatment for the way she felt and ended where we ended.
[29:25]
Nancy Grace
More of what dad says he observes when he found his wife outside that
[29:31]
Attorney questioning witness
night, what did the defendant say at that time about what had happened with the children?
[29:39]
Patrick Clancy
She didn't talk about our kids. She talked about what she went through.
[29:45]
Attorney questioning witness
And what did she say about what she went through?
[29:48]
Patrick Clancy
She said she heard a man's voice telling her that if she didn't do it now, she would lose her chance or something like that.
[29:58]
Attorney questioning witness
And did she also tell you that she had had a moment of psychosis?
[30:04]
Patrick Clancy
I don't recall.
[30:06]
Nancy Grace
From our friends at East Idaho News, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Straight out to Shannon Hill joining us from Shannon Hill News. Shannon, the jury shocked when they visit the crime scene, the scene that was once a happy home. Explain what happened. That's a very unusual move. I saw it in the Murdoch case, State vs. Alex Murdaugh. I saw it in the O.J. simpson case, the Karen Reed case. It is fraught, fraught with potential danger. What happened? Shannon?
[30:51]
Shannon Hill
That's right, Nancy. They do this in very few cases. But with this particular case, they wanted the jury to take a a ride from the CVS that Patrick Clancy had gone to that day, and then to the 3B restaurant where Patrick Clancy also picked up, that Lindsay had requested him to pick up, and then back to the house. And that would give them an idea of how long a trip like that would take and how long Patrick Clancy would be out of the house that they were living in in Duxbury. So, you know, I think being that close to the scene and that close to the home, understand the inside and outside of what took place, gives the jury a really strong picture of exactly what happened to those children that day.
[31:33]
Nancy Grace
SHANNON I'm showing you State's exhibit number 41. It is a view of apparently carpeted steps leading down from the main dwelling area to the basement. I think the significance of this, much to Josh Coleridge's chagrin, will be that with every step, another second passes for her to rethink her murderous plan. What is the claim of the state? How did she get the children herded into the basement? And one child was hiding in Daddy's office, which was also in the basement. What is significant about these steps? Shannon?
[32:17]
Shannon Hill
Yes, danzy. Now, keep in mind this was a finished basement. So this was like the family's second family room. They would go downstairs. There was a gym down there. There were children's toys down there. The husband, Patrick Clancy, had an office down there. So it was very common for these kids to go to the basement to see their parents or play. And so another trip down to the basement didn't seem out of the ordinary to these children. And you're correct in saying that there was time for Lindsey Clancy to change her mind. Going down the stairs, bringing all three kids, making sure to have those exercise bands. This was all a process. A process that she had to think through, conducting in states.
[32:59]
Nancy Grace
Exhibit 100, which gives you an idea of how many exhibits there are. We're already on 100, and the case isn't done yet. Court went all day long. You see clutter in the basement. It doesn't look to me like a play area. It looks like leftover furniture and other artifacts are down there. But I do see on the floor the baby's PJs and exercise cords. Were the PJs cut off the children in an effort to save their lives, or why are they separate from the child? Shannon,
[33:38]
Shannon Hill
that is a possibility that the PJs were taken off before the strangulation happened. I know that with the youngest Talon, he was in a diaper when the paramedics found him. So when the paramedics got to the house and went downstairs, they said that Callan was in a diaper and not in any clothing. So the pajamas were taken off. And that, again, is a process that took Lindsay Clancy time to do. We're strangling the children.
[34:07]
Nancy Grace
I also noticed in exhibit 107 is the bedroom window from which Clancy jumped. Jurors at the scene were able to view the height of the window for themselves is the top right window. And when you look carefully at Exhibit 1 07, you see blood at the lower left side of the window. Did that mean she was holding on because it was her wrists that were bleeding. Was she holding on by with both hands to lessen the fall? Has anybody thought about that? Josh Colesrude.
[34:52]
Josh Colesrew
Well, you know, it certainly is evidence that she wasn't in her right mind. And it also shows that maybe this wasn't part of some plan. Now, I know that the prosecution is making it seem like planning is synonymous with sanity, but psychosis doesn't always erase a person's ability to perform steps and sequence. Right? I mean, sometimes a. A person does something and like, they imagine a building is on fire when there is no fire. And, you know, she does things in sequence. Right. But that doesn't mean that she's in her right mind. Now, every movement may appear organized. It may appear like she has a. But it doesn't mean that she isn't suffering from psychosis.
[35:45]
Nancy Grace
Okay, I hear your argument. That's what the defense is Going to argue. The jury also rode by, I believe, not only the restaurant, they didn't go in the restaurant where he got takeout and the CVS where Clancy sent him to pick up prescriptions.
[36:06]
Attorney questioning witness
Listen, is that you entering the store? Yeah. And that section you head to on the right, is that the pediatric medication section?
[36:14]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[36:15]
Attorney questioning witness
Okay, and while you're in that section looking for the medication, do you do something?
[36:22]
Patrick Clancy
I called Lindsey.
[36:24]
Attorney questioning witness
And why did you call Lindsey?
[36:26]
Patrick Clancy
Because what we were looking for wasn't there.
[36:29]
Attorney questioning witness
What was her demeanor during the call?
[36:34]
Patrick Clancy
She's pretty quiet. It sounded like she was busy. I remember hanging up, thinking, she's probably in the middle of giving baths or
[36:40]
Attorney questioning witness
something like that at 5:54:15pm is that you coming in behind that other couple there? Yeah. And what are you doing at that point when you're looking at the bags?
[36:51]
Patrick Clancy
I think I was looking for the bag with my name on it.
[36:54]
Attorney questioning witness
And the order that was listed under your name and phone number, correct?
[37:00]
Patrick Clancy
Uh, I think Lindsey ordered it.
[37:03]
Attorney questioning witness
Right. But do you recall whose name it was under when you picked it up?
[37:07]
Patrick Clancy
I don't recall specifically, but it could have been mine.
[37:11]
Nancy Grace
The jury could determine for themselves how far it was between the restaurant, the pharmacy and home. And remember, this is an errand. Two errands that she sent him on. And as soon as he left, she killed the children. I want you to hear what Duxbury Officer Vincent Cahill told the jury. And that's from our friends at East Idaho News.
[37:35]
Attorney questioning witness
Do you see him as you're going down the basement stairs?
[37:38]
Officer Vincent Cahill
Yes.
[37:38]
Attorney questioning witness
And where is he coming from and where is he going to?
[37:41]
Nancy Grace
It's coming from my left, heading to my right.
[37:44]
Attorney questioning witness
And what is his demeanor?
[37:46]
Nancy Grace
He was screaming.
[37:48]
Attorney questioning witness
And as you came down the stairs, did he point in a direction?
[37:51]
Patrick Clancy
Yes.
[37:52]
Attorney questioning witness
Where did he point to?
[37:53]
Nancy Grace
To the left side.
[37:54]
Attorney questioning witness
And is that where you headed?
[37:55]
Patrick Clancy
Yes.
[37:56]
Attorney questioning witness
And when you went to the left, did you see two children on the floor in that area of the basement?
[38:01]
Patrick Clancy
Yes.
[38:01]
Attorney questioning witness
And what did you do?
[38:04]
Nancy Grace
I checked the pulse of the five
[38:06]
Patrick Clancy
year old girl and passed that information along. And then when fire came on scene,
[38:12]
Nancy Grace
I then was backing away because fire was going to start taking over, taking care of the five year old girl.
[38:17]
Patrick Clancy
I then backed into the infant who
[38:19]
Shannon Hill
was on the ground.
[38:20]
Attorney questioning witness
You checked her for a pulse? Did she have a pulse?
[38:22]
Josh Colesrew
No.
[38:23]
Attorney questioning witness
And you said fire came down and started taking over. Was that firefighters from Duxbury Fire Department?
[38:30]
Officer Vincent Cahill
Yes, ma'.
[38:30]
Shannon Hill
Am.
[38:30]
Attorney questioning witness
And you said you started backing up. Is that when you bumped into Callan Clancy?
[38:34]
Shannon Hill
Yes, ma'.
[38:35]
Dr. Kendall Krause
Am.
[38:35]
Attorney questioning witness
And at that point in time, what did you do next?
[38:38]
Patrick Clancy
I checked Callan's pulse.
[38:40]
Attorney questioning witness
And did he have a pulse?
[38:41]
Dave Mack
No.
[38:42]
Shannon Hill
We saw Callan and Cora face up on the ground. I immediately jumped on the radio to ask for two additional ambulances, that we needed more help. And we. Patrick ran to Cora and I went to Callan.
[38:55]
Attorney questioning witness
While you were working on Callan, did you notice any injuries on him?
[38:58]
Dr. Katherine Berndorf
Yes.
[38:59]
Shannon Hill
He had deep strangulation marks around the entire circumference of his neck.
[39:03]
Nancy Grace
What does that mean, Dr. Kendall? Crown's deep strangulation marks around the entire circumference of the baby's neck. We're talking about Cowan, the baby.
[39:14]
Dr. Kendall Krause
So it means the impression from the ligature or the exercise band that are completely around the neck. Circumferentially, because of the pressure of the band itself, it cuts into the skin and makes kind of a deep red abrasion, and that's known as a ligature mark. When you see them circumferential about the neck, it means it's completely around the neck, which is consistent with being tied off around the baby's neck to strangle them.
[39:42]
Officer Vincent Cahill
He was laying on his back. His head was tilted to the right hand side. Looked at him kind of in the face area once we got closer. And his face was white. Gray. Lips were blue. Eyes were bloodshot. Looked like blood vessels were popped in his eyes.
[40:03]
Attorney questioning witness
Did you notice any injuries to his neck?
[40:06]
Officer Vincent Cahill
Seeing that, my first instinct was to kind of grab his head and tilt it to the side, see if I can get a pulse. But, I mean, based on my training experience from previous incidents, I knew it wasn't going to be good. So I moved the head. That's where I observed some red marks on that right hand side. I noticed she kind of looked like
[40:24]
Nancy Grace
she had some burst blood vessels around her eyes.
[40:29]
Shannon Hill
Did you make any observations of the color of her skin?
[40:35]
Patrick Clancy
Kind of pale, bluish.
[40:37]
Nancy Grace
Did she have a pulse?
[40:39]
Patrick Clancy
No.
[40:39]
Shannon Hill
Was she breathing?
[40:40]
Patrick Clancy
No.
[40:41]
Officer Vincent Cahill
We just started hearing loud screams. Upon his observation of us, myself and Officer hall, he proceeded to head in our direction, leaving that room. And at that point, he looked up and he screamed, she killed the kids.
[40:56]
Nancy Grace
She killed the effing kids. He was screaming. Claudia King, have you ever heard the phrase jury nullification?
[41:07]
Claudia King
I absolutely have, Nancy. And I could definitely see that happening here, where the jury looks at the horrific nature of these crimes and says, we don't really care what she was going through. She killed these kids and she's going
[41:24]
Nancy Grace
to have to pay for that. See, I think it's that's bass ackwards. I hear what you're saying. Shannon Hill joining us. SHANNON hill, NEWS in my mind, jury nullification of this case would be the jury knowing that she intended to commit this act, that there was pre planning, there was a scheme, there was time to form intent premeditation under the law. But the babies are not in the courtroom to be heard. All they see is mommy crying and your heart goes out to her. She's paralyzed. And with her sitting there crying and frail and pitiful, the dreamer say, you know what, the state proved its case, but we don't care. We're finding her not guilty.
[42:19]
Shannon Hill
Well, I think with the combination of the amount of times Lindsey Clancy reached out to medical professionals for help was on a number of different medications called the suicide hotline. Her husband Patrick had had her go to an inpatient treatment just a couple of weeks before this happened. It is an argument for the fact that she was dealing with some sort of postpartum psychosis or bipolar disorder. And I think that that is going to be the defense's biggest argument was, look, we have this woman who is reaching out countless times for help and wasn't getting the exact help that she needed.
[43:02]
Nancy Grace
If you know or think you know anything about this case, there is a legal theory called newly discovered evidence that can still be brought in at trial for either side. Dial 781-934-5656. Tonight we honor K9DD now protected while serving with Jackson County Sheriff's Michigan thanks to vested interest in K9s. DD now has a bullet and stab proof protective vest. These life saving vests, not standard, they cost up to twelve hundred dollars each. Vested interest in canines donates these vests, Narcan kits, first aid equipment to K9s all across the country. And they have proudly vested nearly 7,000 law enforcement canines help protect K9s who risk their lives protecting us. We remember American hero investigator Anthony Freeman, Bibb County Sheriff's Georgia, killed in the line of duty after seven years, leaving behind his wife, now widow Jessica and two children, Braden and Blakelyn, sentenced to life without dad. American Hero investigator Anthony Freeman. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight. I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

Summary7 min read

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: Mom Lindsay Clancy 3 Tots Dead, Jury Shock @ Grim Crime Scene

Date: August 3, 2026

Episode Overview

Nancy Grace explores the tragic and deeply unsettling case of Lindsay Clancy, a Massachusetts mother accused of murdering her three young children—Cora, Dawson, and Callan—with exercise bands in the family basement. The episode captures courtroom testimony, legal analysis, medical expertise, and emotional responses from family, law enforcement, and expert guests. Central themes include the legal definition of insanity, the complexities of postpartum psychosis, and the harrowing experiences of the victims and those who discovered the crime scene. The jury’s reaction to both the evidence and their visit to the crime scene is a major focus.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sequence of Events: Patrick Clancy’s Testimony

Patrick Clancy (father) takes the stand, describing his return home to find the house eerily quiet and ultimately discovering the bodies of his children.
- "The house is really quiet. ... I called out. ... No one answered."
  (Patrick Clancy, 01:10–01:29)
- Recalls searching the house, calling out, and finally entering the basement where he sees "blood everywhere. ... It looked like it was sprayed almost with like a hose."
  (Patrick Clancy, 03:52–04:12)
- Finds each child with an exercise band around their neck, unresponsive.
Notable moment: Patrick’s detailed, emotional account leaves the courtroom in stunned silence.
- "Blood as if it's sprayed with a hose. A garden hose. That courtroom was dead silent. You could have heard a pin drop..."
  (Nancy Grace, 04:12)

2. Nature of the Crime Scene

Dr. Katherine Berndorf: "This is top three worst crime scenes I've ever been to. But I've never seen police officers weeping..."
(00:47)
Police and paramedics are visibly shaken, underscoring the brutality of the killings.

3. Use of Exercise Bands: Medical Examiner’s Analysis

Dr. Kendall Crowns explains the mechanics and force required to use exercise bands as murder weapons, noting the difficulty and the deliberateness required compared to other ligatures.
- "All you need is 4.4 pounds of pressure around the neck to cause enough pressure to blood not be getting to the brain. ... you have to really pull it taut and keep it taut..."
  (Dr. Kendall Crowns, 07:33–08:35)

4. Intent, Insanity, and the Law

Nancy Grace & Josh Colesrew (defense attorney) debate the legal criteria for insanity in Massachusetts—specifically, whether Clancy understood right from wrong at the time.
- "The law states that if you knew the difference between right and wrong at the time of the incident, you're not insane, period. Now she's claiming not guilty by reason of insanity."
  (Nancy Grace, 10:58)
- "The question is whether her mind, ravaged by severe mental disease, could appreciate the wrongfulness of these acts and control her conduct..."
  (Josh Colesrew, 09:29)

5. Mental Health & Postpartum Psychosis

Dr. Katherine Berndorf (Reproductive Psychiatrist) distinguishes between postpartum depression and psychosis, underscoring how psychosis can provoke delusions or hallucinations leading to acts like filicide.
- "Psychosis is a break with reality. ... People aren't running around, you know, sort of stark raving mad. ... They may be behaving normally one minute and hours later ... acting on potentially delusions, hallucinations."
  (Dr. Katherine Berndorf, 18:36)
Clancy had 13 prescriptions, frequent doctor visits, and multiple hospitalizations. Panelists debate whether her mental condition absolves her of criminal responsibility.

6. Empathy for the Victims

Claudia King highlights the children’s suffering and the trauma of their deaths, noting that two were found face down, possibly so Clancy wouldn’t have to see their faces.
- "The fact that Dawson was found in a different room is because he ran away. ... For their father to have to find them that way and take those bands from off their necks is absolutely horrendous."
  (Claudia King, 22:04)

7. Clancy’s Own Psychiatric History

She was a labor and delivery nurse, familiar with childbirth and trauma.
Sought help multiple times, including voluntarily checking into a hospital, but left against medical advice days before the murders.
- "She checked herself in to McLean Hospital for inpatient psychiatric treatment. ... She requested discharge before the end of treatment..."
  (Dave Mack, 28:23)

8. Jury Visit to the Crime Scene

Jury retraces Patrick’s steps from errands to the home, observing the actual scene. The goal: to convey the timeline and emotional gravity.
- "Being that close to the scene ... gives the jury a really strong picture of exactly what happened to those children that day."
  (Shannon Hill, 30:50)
Visual exhibits presented: carpeted basement steps, the bloodied window Clancy used in her escape, and children's pajamas separated from their bodies.

9. Discussion of Defense and Prosecution Strategies

Defense contends planning does not preclude psychosis; prosecution stresses ample time to reconsider the crime, reinforcing intent.
- "The prosecution is making it seem like planning is synonymous with sanity, but psychosis doesn't always erase a person's ability to perform steps and sequence."
  (Josh Colesrew, 34:51)
- "This was all a process. A process that she had to think through..."
  (Shannon Hill, 32:16)

10. Potential Jury Nullification

The panel ponders whether the jury will set aside emotion or "nullify" the law due to sympathy for Clancy's condition or horror at the crime.
- "We don't really care what she was going through. She killed these kids and she's going to have to pay for that."
  (Claudia King, 41:07)
- "The babies are not in the courtroom to be heard. All they see is mommy crying and your heart goes out to her. ... but we don't care. We're finding her not guilty."
  (Nancy Grace, 41:24)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

"I've never seen police officers weeping at a crime scene the way I did that night."
— Dr. Katherine Berndorf (00:47)
“Blood as if it's sprayed with a hose. ... That courtroom was dead silent. You could have heard a pin drop as he goes on in his testimony describing the discovery...”
— Nancy Grace (04:12)
“All you need is 4.4 pounds of pressure around the neck … for three to four minutes, you've killed the child.”
— Dr. Kendall Crowns (07:33)
"She may have, but typically as a psychopharmacologist, I'll tell you, you don't use all those drugs at the same time."
— Dr. Katherine Berndorf (15:46)
"The last thing they saw was their mother strangling them. ... Why is nobody talking about them?"
— Nancy Grace (21:52)
"The fact that Dawson was found in a different room is because he ran away."
— Claudia King (22:04)
"She says, I tried to kill myself. He had to ask, well, what about the children?"
— Shannon Hill (13:19)
"She killed the effing kids. He was screaming."
— Nancy Grace recalling Patrick Clancy's reaction (40:56)
"We don't really care what she was going through. She killed these kids and she's going to have to pay for that."
— Claudia King (41:07)

Important Timestamps

Patrick Clancy’s Testimony

Discovery of the crime scene: 01:08–06:28
Description of seeing children: 05:04–06:15

Expert Analysis: Mechanics and Medical

Use of exercise bands for strangulation: 07:33–08:35
Postpartum psychosis vs. depression explained: 18:36–19:54

Legal Arguments and Mental State

Intent and law discussion: 08:35–10:58
Insanity defense debated: 10:58–12:21

Children’s Suffering and Public Reaction

Focus on victims: 21:52–23:13
Public and jury’s emotional responses: 23:35–24:07

Jury Crime Scene Visit

Description and implications: 30:50–32:59

Law Enforcement and First Responders

Officer Vincent Cahill, initial scene reaction: 37:35–39:14

Guest Panel & Their Perspectives

Nancy Grace: Host; emphasizes legal definitions, intent, and justice for victims.
Patrick Clancy: Father; emotional firsthand account of the discovery.
Shannon Hill: Reporter; adds details from ongoing coverage.
Dr. Kendall Crowns: Medical examiner; clarifies scientific aspects of strangulation.
Dr. Katherine Berndorf: Reproductive psychiatrist; explains psychiatric diagnoses.
Josh Colesrew: Defense attorney; legal strategy and implications of mental disease.
Claudia King: Domestic violence expert; advocates for focusing on child victims.
Dave Mack: Investigative reporter; background on Lindsay Clancy’s treatment-seeking.

Episode Tone

The tone is emotionally charged, fact-focused, and relentlessly direct. Nancy Grace oscillates between legal analysis, intense empathy for the victims, and skepticism about excuses centered around Clancy’s mental health. Expert guests maintain professional clarity, while panelists’ discussions underline the tragedy’s deep impact on all involved.

Summary Takeaway

This episode presents a comprehensive and harrowing exploration of the Lindsay Clancy case, balancing courtroom drama, expert analysis, and raw emotional testimony to examine questions of accountability, mental illness, and justice in an unthinkable tragedy. The episode is particularly notable for its unflinching focus on both the grief of the survivors and the legal complexities that will determine Lindsay Clancy’s fate.

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Transcript194 lines

[00:00]
Nancy Grace
This is an I heart podcast, Guaranteed human crime stories with Nancy Grace. Mom Lindsay Clancy's three taught children are dead. The jury shocked when they visit the grim crime scene. Remember, all three children were herded into the basement and murdered with exercise bands. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Lindsey Clancy Googles ways to kill.
[00:48]
Dr. Katherine Berndorf
So this is top three worst crime scenes I've ever been to. But I've never seen police officers weeping
[00:55]
Claudia King
at a crime scene the way I did that night.
[00:57]
Nancy Grace
I hear the defense lawyer saying, she's been crying. She should be crying. They're dead.
[01:04]
Attorney questioning witness
What did you do once you got inside the home?
[01:09]
Patrick Clancy
I started taking my boots off.
[01:11]
Attorney questioning witness
Was there anything you noticed?
[01:13]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah. The house is really quiet.
[01:15]
Attorney questioning witness
Is that unusual?
[01:16]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[01:18]
Attorney questioning witness
And when you, you realized it was really quiet, what did you do?
[01:23]
Patrick Clancy
I called out.
[01:25]
Attorney questioning witness
And who did you call out to?
[01:27]
Patrick Clancy
Everyone.
[01:28]
Attorney questioning witness
Did anyone answer?
[01:30]
Patrick Clancy
No.
[01:30]
Attorney questioning witness
After you called out and no one answered, what did you do next?
[01:36]
Patrick Clancy
I think I. I don't know the order, but I called down in the basement and no one answered. And then I called Lindsay to see if she was home because I looked out and I, I couldn't see her car, but it's because it was dark and her car's black.
[01:55]
Attorney questioning witness
Okay, so when you, you say you, you called down to the basement. When you approached the basement door, do you remember if it was open or shut?
[02:03]
Patrick Clancy
It was shut.
[02:05]
Attorney questioning witness
So did you open it and yell down?
[02:06]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[02:07]
Attorney questioning witness
And there was no response, correct?
[02:09]
Nancy Grace
That's right. Friends at East Idaho News in the courtroom. Court went down all day today. And we are bringing you the latest from the court courthouse. That is Lindsay, Clancy's husband on the stand. When she heard the 911 call, which we are not playing tonight with the dad, he asked the court not to release it publicly. We have it. We're not playing it. It is just too upsetting. When she heard it, she breaks down in tears. But tears aside, the prosecution said she knew very well what she was doing. Waiting, in fact, engineering her husband to leave the home to go get takeout food, then telling him to go to CVS pharmacy. He called her in the middle of the murders, according to the prosecution, and she acted normal on the phone. He is on the stand.
[03:07]
Attorney questioning witness
Listen, after you called Lindsey and didn't get a response, what did you do next?
[03:13]
Patrick Clancy
I started checking upstairs.
[03:15]
Attorney questioning witness
And where did you check upstairs
[03:19]
Patrick Clancy
first? The bathroom. I thought maybe they were taking baths, but there was no one there.
[03:25]
Attorney questioning witness
And then where did you go?
[03:26]
Patrick Clancy
The kids, Bedrooms.
[03:28]
Attorney questioning witness
Was there anyone in the kids bedrooms?
[03:29]
Shannon Hill
No.
[03:31]
Attorney questioning witness
And then did you go to your bedroom?
[03:33]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[03:33]
Attorney questioning witness
And were you able to get into your bedroom right away?
[03:36]
Patrick Clancy
No, the door was locked. And that's when I knew something was wrong.
[03:42]
Attorney questioning witness
When you unlocked the door to your bedroom, did you go in?
[03:46]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[03:48]
Attorney questioning witness
And what did you see when you opened the door and went in?
[03:52]
Patrick Clancy
I just saw blood everywhere. And the window is open. It was everywhere. It was. It looked like it was sprayed almost with like a hose. And there was a huge puddle in the middle of the room. And it was sprayed all over the. Pretty much every surface. I remember it was on the doorknob.
[04:12]
Nancy Grace
Dear Lord in heaven, can you imagine coming home, you call out for your children. Nobody answers. Everything's dark. You start looking for them. And in the words of Patrick Clancy, you see blood as if it was sprayed with a hose on the wall. Blood as if it's sprayed with a hose. A garden hose. That courtroom was dead silent. You could have heard a pin drop as he goes on in his testimony describing the discovery of his children's. His three children's bodies with cords, exercise bands still wrapped around their necks.
[05:05]
Patrick Clancy
I saw Cora.
[05:06]
Attorney questioning witness
And how did she look?
[05:09]
Patrick Clancy
She had a band around her neck.
[05:12]
Attorney questioning witness
And was that an exercise band?
[05:14]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[05:15]
Attorney questioning witness
And do you recall whether she was. What position she was in, whether face up or face down?
[05:23]
Patrick Clancy
She's face down.
[05:25]
Attorney questioning witness
And when you saw her in that condition, what did you do?
[05:30]
Patrick Clancy
I immediately ran over and tried to take the band off.
[05:33]
Attorney questioning witness
Were you able to get the band off?
[05:35]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[05:35]
Attorney questioning witness
Was she responsive?
[05:37]
Patrick Clancy
No, I saw Callan.
[05:39]
Attorney questioning witness
And where was he?
[05:40]
Patrick Clancy
He was next to her.
[05:42]
Attorney questioning witness
And how did he appear?
[05:45]
Patrick Clancy
He had a band around his neck.
[05:47]
Attorney questioning witness
Sorry?
[05:47]
Patrick Clancy
He had a band around his neck.
[05:49]
Attorney questioning witness
And did you remove that as well?
[05:51]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[05:51]
Attorney questioning witness
And do you recall what position he was in?
[05:54]
Patrick Clancy
Same as Cora.
[05:55]
Attorney questioning witness
After you removed the band from Callan's neck, what did you do next?
[06:01]
Patrick Clancy
I tried to find Dawson.
[06:04]
Attorney questioning witness
And where did you go?
[06:06]
Patrick Clancy
I looked in the bathroom and on the other side of the couch, and then I went to the other side of the basement and he was in my office.
[06:15]
Attorney questioning witness
And when you saw Dawson, what condition was he in?
[06:21]
Patrick Clancy
I. I knew he was gone.
[06:24]
Attorney questioning witness
And did he also have a band around his neck?
[06:26]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[06:27]
Attorney questioning witness
And did you remove that band?
[06:29]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[06:29]
Nancy Grace
From our friends at East Idaho News, joining us, an allstar panel including Shannon Hill on the case from the very beginning. At Shannon Hill News, Dave Mack and Dr. Katherine Berndorf. But to Dr. Kendall Crowns. Joining us tonight, chief medical examiner in Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth. Never a lack of business in the Morgue in Fort Worth. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at tcu, and he is the star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the morgue. Dr. Kendall Krause, thank you for being with us tonight. Explain to me how the exercise bands, mommy's exercise bands, were used to strangle the three children and the pressure necessary, the force of exertion, to use them, as opposed to some other ligature such as a rope,
[07:33]
Dr. Kendall Krause
certainly. So to start with, an exercise band is kind of this stretchy latex rubber, so they stiff like a rope. You have to put pressure on it to hold that pressure on the neck. Now, I have a CPR dummy of a baby here with me, and what it is is the ligature is placed around the neck and then pulled tightly. But then mom's got to maintain that pressure to get the knot put into place, which is actually somewhat difficult to do. So once that's done, all you need is 4.4 pounds of pressure around the neck to cause enough pressure to blood not be getting to the brain. And as long as that's maintained for three to four minutes, you've killed the child. So it's a lot more difficult to use exercise bands when compared to a rope because of the stretchiness. So you have to really pull it taut and keep it taut, keep that pressure on the neck to kill the child or to kill whoever you're strangling with them.
[08:36]
Nancy Grace
The significance of that. Josh Colesrew joining us, veteran trial lawyer, criminal defense attorney, former U.S. attorney, star of podcast no contest. The significance of what Dr. Kendall Crowns has just said goes to intent. As you and I know as veteran trial lawyers, intent does not require a long, drawn out plan. The example I would give a jury is such as point poisoning someone over a period of weeks and months till they finally kill over dead. It can be formed intent in the blink of an eye, the twinkling of a moment, the time it takes to pull a trigger, much less the amount of time is described by Dr. Kendall Crowns it would require to exert force necessary to strangle asphyxiate all three children. That was time to form intent, is it not?
[09:29]
Josh Colesrew
Well, that's certainly what the prosecution is going to argue, Nancy. Now, you know, what we can't deny is that there was a killing of three innocent children, Cora, Dawson, and Callan. And there's nothing that the defense can do to try to brighten that picture. And when their father walked into that basement and discovered a horror that no parent should ever want to See, nothing I can say can soften that. But killing and murder aren't automatically the same thing under the law. You know, murder requires a criminally responsible mind. That isn't a technicality. It's one of the oldest and most humane principles in American justice. So the question isn't simply whether Lindsay's hands committed these acts. We know they did. The question is whether her mind, ravaged by severe mental disease, could appreciate the wrongfulness of these acts and control her conduct when they occurred. Now, this woman didn't wake up one morning after a normal life and calmly decide she no longer wanted her children. She saw doctors 19 times prior to this happening, and they prescribed her a whole litany of drugs. And I think you have them in alphabetic order or phonetical. Phonetical border or. And you look at this, it is a whole pharmacy full of drugs that. How could you not imagine that this could affect anybody taking these in a very negative way?
[10:59]
Nancy Grace
Let me remind you that the voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is not a defense under the law. Now, hold on. We are not bloodthirsty monsters that want a sick woman to be put in GP general population. I don't want that. What I want is a true verdict. And under the law. Under the law. I'm not the law. The law is enacted by the population. The law states that if you knew the difference between right and wrong at the time of the incident, you're not insane, period. Now she's claiming not guilty by reason of insanity. Straight out to Shannon Hill joining us, star of Shannon Hill News on Insta. Shannon, thank you for being with us. I understand that in addition to what we're learning right now, Clancy breaks down as a doctor describes efforts to revive the children. What happened. And I haven't even gotten to the jury going to the murder scene. But one thing at a time. What happened when a doctor described trying to revive the three children as he
[12:21]
Shannon Hill
was trying to revive the middle child? Dawson and Callum, both children were not showing any sort of brain function. And at one point, they did get a pulse from Callum, the youngest. And that was when they also realized his heart was no longer repeating and they could not survive. And, yes, Lindsey Clancy was crying in the courtroom when this was being talked about.
[12:46]
Nancy Grace
I'm very curious. It's. It's hard to watch the jury like a hawk when you're watching everything else in the courtroom. I remember feeling like I was watching a tennis match when I had time to reflect upon it in court, because I'd be watching the witness and looking at the jury and watching the witness and looking at the jury like that the whole time, it's very difficult to also look over at the defendant. I tried not to do that when I was trying a case. But I wonder how the jury reacted to Lindsay Clancy sobbing in court. Do we know Shannon?
[13:20]
Shannon Hill
They continue to ask the jury to not get emotionally attached to any of the evidence being shown, such as the pajamas, children's pajamas that were being shown, to remain emotionally detached from any and all of the testimony and evidence shown. One thing that I think is really compelling is when Patrick Fancy testifies on the stand and he says that he sees his wife on the ground. He goes to her and he asks her what happened. She says, I tried to kill myself. And then he asks her, where are the children? She says, in the basement. But then doesn't proceed to tell him to go help them or go check on his children or run to them. You know, they're in dire need.
[14:03]
Nancy Grace
Shannon hill, I find that very disturbing. Crime stories with nancy grace. Straight out to Dr. Kathryn Berndorf, reproductive psychiatrist. She is a postpartum expert. Joining us, she is CEO and medical director at the Motherhood center of New York, former board member, Postpartum Support International. She's the founding director of the Pain Whitney Women's Program at the Weill Cornell Medical center and author of what no One Tells you, A Guide to your Emotions from Pregnancy to motherhood and more. Dr. Berndorf, thank you for being with us. You have worked extensively with postpartum depression here. We are not talking about postpartum depression, which I believe is very common amongst new moms. We are talking about postpartum psychosis, as you know. Well, you know all about that. The law is very clear, though, that if she knew right from wrong at the time, no defense is going to be able to save her. So I've been studying this list of drugs. Sleep, anxiety, sleep and anxiety, antidepressant mood stabilizer, anxiety and sleep, sleep, antipsychotic sleep. It just, that's a lot. But she did take them voluntarily.
[15:46]
Dr. Katherine Berndorf
She may have, but typically as a psychopharmacologist, I'll tell you, you don't use all those drugs at the same time. One who's being treated for presumed illness is being treated with the best medications for that illness. So you go one at a time. You add more when needed, and sometimes you're cross tapering them if something doesn't work. So while I can't speak to this list or what she took, I can say that these meds don't cause psychosis they treat it and they treat postpartum depression. They treat many things as you pointed out. So it's hard to believe that anyone would be taking them all at the same time.
[16:30]
Nancy Grace
I agree, I agree. And I don't have evidence that she was taking them all at the same time. I'd also like to point out it had been 19 days since she had been released from psychiatric treatment at the time of the killings. Dr. Katherine Berndorf. I find it disturbing that when her husband finds her outside having jumped from a two story window. Let's show the home. When she jumped from that window, the husband approached her. I'd like to see the back of the home because that shows me the window from which she jumped. There it is. If you can show me at a distance. There he goes, the top right window. I believe she didn't even mention the children. She says, I, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, I tried to kill myself. He had to ask, well, what about the children? And then she told him they're in the basement. She didn't mention that they had exercise bands wrapped around their necks.
[17:32]
Dr. Katherine Berndorf
Yes. If it's determined that she is psychotic at the time of what happened. This is entirely consistent with this medical disease, also known as a mental illness called postpartum psychosis. It is entirely consistent where at some point you can be behaving absolutely normally or seemingly so, but have this belief in the back of your head that is intractable, that is absolutely believed by you as if you are doing the right thing for your children. Again, I can't speak to this, but we look at previous cases and we know that that is the belief of someone in the mind who's having a postpartum psychosis. They believe they are doing the right thing, potentially saving their children from some horrible fate. So this is consistent based on what I know as an expert and what I've seen.
[18:29]
Nancy Grace
What is postpartum psychosis as opposed to postpartum depression?
[18:36]
Dr. Katherine Berndorf
Depression is when one is struggling with low mood, disinterest in things, not sleeping, eating well, a bunch of somatic different kinds of symptoms. Psychosis is a break with reality. It is a completely different thing, different realm. And I think that it's not always easy to see. People aren't running around, you know, sort of stark raving mad. That's not what you see. You can see perfectly behaved people who have this kind of circumscribed in the back of the head. Belief that can be shared may not be shared. They may be behaving normally one minute and hours later, not because they are acting on potentially delusions, hallucinations. Command hallucinations to say potentially, you need to kill these kids to save them them. That is possible. We know it to be true. We've heard it before. These are distinctly different illnesses. Postpartum depression, one in five postpartum psychosis, one to two per thousand. It is uncommon, but it is there. And it is deadly when not treated so very different.
[19:54]
Nancy Grace
To Claudia King joining us, former law enforcement officer, domestic violence expert, host of no Contest podcast and star of Strong Enough podcast. Claudia, thank you for being with us. You can find her at Claudia m. As in mother king.com Claudia I'm going to speak what no one else has said yet because I've heard a lot about the mother's alleged psychosis and what she went through. Can we talk about the dead victims, the three children, what they went through? Nobody is talking about three lives gone, three children brutally murdered. Do I need to replay for you, Claudia King, where the dad said when he went in, it looked like someone had sprayed the wall with a garden hose, sprayed the wall with blood. Why is nobody talking about the terror the children went through as they are herded into the basement and one by one murdered by mommy who had to exert intense control and intense weight to use these elastic bands, which are, as I said, elastic, which are pliant. It's like strangling somebody with a rubber band as opposed to a ligature. It takes a lot of effort and force. The last thing they saw was their mother strangling them. Her face was a contorted. Was she having to exert herself to murder them? Why is nobody talking about them? CLAUDIA
[22:04]
Claudia King
because that's really hard, NANCY Nobody wants to talk about what those children suffered through. So we're going to talk about it right now. I think the fact that Dawson was found in a different room is because he ran away. He saw what was happening and he tried to get away from what his mother was doing to his siblings. And Nancy, the other thing I find very interesting is we know at least two of the children were found face down. She did not want to look at their faces when she did this to them. She didn't want them to see her face when she did this to them. And I think that is very telling. And when you put that band around the neck, they're still struggling for seconds to up to a minute before they become unconscious. So she's having to deal with that as well. What these children went through is absolutely horrible. And for their father to have to find them that way and take those bands from off their necks is absolutely horrendous.
[23:14]
Nancy Grace
Shannon, I wonder how the jury reacted when the evidence came out that she didn't mention or direct her husband to the children, that she only talked about herself and that the children, as Claudia King just rightly pointed out, were face down. They couldn't see their mother's face.
[23:36]
Shannon Hill
Well, we don't know what the jury did and said, but what I do know is that the public reaction to that is very upsetting. They are very concerned that there was no emotion there with Lindsey Clancy, that she was just so detached from her children that she just let her. She allowed her husband to wait with her while the paramedic came. That she never gave him a heads up that the children are in the basement and they need your help. And that is where the public is the most shocked.
[24:07]
Patrick Clancy
I ran downstairs and went outside. I just looked around in the backyard below that window and I saw Lindsey.
[24:14]
Attorney questioning witness
And where did you see her?
[24:16]
Patrick Clancy
She was face up in the backyard.
[24:19]
Attorney questioning witness
And where in the backyard was she?
[24:21]
Patrick Clancy
At the bottom of the window.
[24:23]
Attorney questioning witness
Where was she in relation to that window?
[24:25]
Patrick Clancy
Directly below it.
[24:27]
Attorney questioning witness
Down here by the window.
[24:28]
Patrick Clancy
Well, yep, she had deep cuts on her wrists and she had a red line across her neck. I wasn't sure what it was at first, but she cut her neck.
[24:43]
Nancy Grace
From our friends at East Idaho news straight to Dr. Kendall Crowns, Chief medical examiner, Tarrant County. How many cases have I seen? I'm trying to figure out how many. I can't count them all. Where someone commits homicide and then claim they were going to kill themselves but they didn't. Over and over and over you can wipe out the whole family. And I've seen this in men and women, but when it comes to killing themselves, somehow that doesn't work.
[25:19]
Dr. Kendall Krause
Yes, it does happen occasionally, especially when parents kill their children, they attempt suicide. Often you see it when boyfriends murder their wives or something like that situation murder girlfriends. I mean, they attempt to cover up the fact that they did it by attempting suicide. Often their suicide attempts are superficial, so they don't cut deep into a vessel or they don't cut deep enough to kill themselves. And you get this injuries but you don't see them dying. So you got to wonder were they really meaning to kill themselves? Now jumping out of a second story window, if she had gone head first, she might have achieved what she was going for. But my assumption is she went feet first and that's why she's a paraplegic at this time. So again, Another unsuccessful suicide attempt. And you have to wonder, did she really mean to die?
[26:11]
Nancy Grace
Shannon Hill, what is her vocation? What does Lindsey Clancy do for a living when she worked?
[26:19]
Shannon Hill
So she was a labor and delivery nurse. So she is, she was and is very familiar with women who are going through pregnancy, delivery.
[26:28]
Nancy Grace
And so let me understand this to Catherine, Dr. Catherine Berndorf. Dr. Berndorf, this is a woman that was in and out of the pediatric unit every day in labor and delivery, and she murders her three children. I I am tempted to point out the irony of that, but I'm more interested in it in a probative sense. What, if anything, does it prove regarding her knowledge of how to kill someone and how not to kill herself?
[27:03]
Dr. Katherine Berndorf
I would reframe it and say what you're seeing is the idea that someone who has knowledge of labor and delivery or someone in the field, the profession, didn't know what was happening, that there's not enough education. I can't tell you the number of people we treat at the Motherhood center, professionals in the field and other very respectable fields who don't know what's happening to them. There's stigma, there's shame, there's lack of education, lack of access to treatment. We see this all the time. And when they get to us at the Motherhood center, they've tried to get help many, many times. They've been turned away, their insurances haven't paid, and they are, frankly just burned out of trying and still ill. But they're defeated. And it's very hard to access this. So there's nothing. You know, it is ironic, as you put it, but understandable from where I sit, that this can happen to anyone in the field or anywhere else.
[28:13]
Nancy Grace
Dave Mack joining me, Crime Stories, investigative Reporter detail for Dr. Katherine Berndorf. How Clancy had sought treatment.
[28:23]
Dave Mack
NANCY Lindsey Clancy sought treatment many times for how she felt, psychologically speaking, depression and things like that. In particular, Nancy beyond the 13 prescriptions that doctors were prescribing, she checked herself in to McLean Hospital for inpatient psychiatric treatment. We're talking days before this event happened, January 1st to January 5th of 2020, she was in the hospital. Her medications were being adjusted. She requested discharge before the end of treatment. So she wanted help and she sought out help. But then before clinicians cleared her to go, she checked herself out and she was discharged and went home. And we know what happened after that. Previous to that, NANCY she had constantly been seeking some type of treatment for the way she felt and ended where we ended.
[29:25]
Nancy Grace
More of what dad says he observes when he found his wife outside that
[29:31]
Attorney questioning witness
night, what did the defendant say at that time about what had happened with the children?
[29:39]
Patrick Clancy
She didn't talk about our kids. She talked about what she went through.
[29:45]
Attorney questioning witness
And what did she say about what she went through?
[29:48]
Patrick Clancy
She said she heard a man's voice telling her that if she didn't do it now, she would lose her chance or something like that.
[29:58]
Attorney questioning witness
And did she also tell you that she had had a moment of psychosis?
[30:04]
Patrick Clancy
I don't recall.
[30:06]
Nancy Grace
From our friends at East Idaho News, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Straight out to Shannon Hill joining us from Shannon Hill News. Shannon, the jury shocked when they visit the crime scene, the scene that was once a happy home. Explain what happened. That's a very unusual move. I saw it in the Murdoch case, State vs. Alex Murdaugh. I saw it in the O.J. simpson case, the Karen Reed case. It is fraught, fraught with potential danger. What happened? Shannon?
[30:51]
Shannon Hill
That's right, Nancy. They do this in very few cases. But with this particular case, they wanted the jury to take a a ride from the CVS that Patrick Clancy had gone to that day, and then to the 3B restaurant where Patrick Clancy also picked up, that Lindsay had requested him to pick up, and then back to the house. And that would give them an idea of how long a trip like that would take and how long Patrick Clancy would be out of the house that they were living in in Duxbury. So, you know, I think being that close to the scene and that close to the home, understand the inside and outside of what took place, gives the jury a really strong picture of exactly what happened to those children that day.
[31:33]
Nancy Grace
SHANNON I'm showing you State's exhibit number 41. It is a view of apparently carpeted steps leading down from the main dwelling area to the basement. I think the significance of this, much to Josh Coleridge's chagrin, will be that with every step, another second passes for her to rethink her murderous plan. What is the claim of the state? How did she get the children herded into the basement? And one child was hiding in Daddy's office, which was also in the basement. What is significant about these steps? Shannon?
[32:17]
Shannon Hill
Yes, danzy. Now, keep in mind this was a finished basement. So this was like the family's second family room. They would go downstairs. There was a gym down there. There were children's toys down there. The husband, Patrick Clancy, had an office down there. So it was very common for these kids to go to the basement to see their parents or play. And so another trip down to the basement didn't seem out of the ordinary to these children. And you're correct in saying that there was time for Lindsey Clancy to change her mind. Going down the stairs, bringing all three kids, making sure to have those exercise bands. This was all a process. A process that she had to think through, conducting in states.
[32:59]
Nancy Grace
Exhibit 100, which gives you an idea of how many exhibits there are. We're already on 100, and the case isn't done yet. Court went all day long. You see clutter in the basement. It doesn't look to me like a play area. It looks like leftover furniture and other artifacts are down there. But I do see on the floor the baby's PJs and exercise cords. Were the PJs cut off the children in an effort to save their lives, or why are they separate from the child? Shannon,
[33:38]
Shannon Hill
that is a possibility that the PJs were taken off before the strangulation happened. I know that with the youngest Talon, he was in a diaper when the paramedics found him. So when the paramedics got to the house and went downstairs, they said that Callan was in a diaper and not in any clothing. So the pajamas were taken off. And that, again, is a process that took Lindsay Clancy time to do. We're strangling the children.
[34:07]
Nancy Grace
I also noticed in exhibit 107 is the bedroom window from which Clancy jumped. Jurors at the scene were able to view the height of the window for themselves is the top right window. And when you look carefully at Exhibit 1 07, you see blood at the lower left side of the window. Did that mean she was holding on because it was her wrists that were bleeding. Was she holding on by with both hands to lessen the fall? Has anybody thought about that? Josh Colesrude.
[34:52]
Josh Colesrew
Well, you know, it certainly is evidence that she wasn't in her right mind. And it also shows that maybe this wasn't part of some plan. Now, I know that the prosecution is making it seem like planning is synonymous with sanity, but psychosis doesn't always erase a person's ability to perform steps and sequence. Right? I mean, sometimes a. A person does something and like, they imagine a building is on fire when there is no fire. And, you know, she does things in sequence. Right. But that doesn't mean that she's in her right mind. Now, every movement may appear organized. It may appear like she has a. But it doesn't mean that she isn't suffering from psychosis.
[35:45]
Nancy Grace
Okay, I hear your argument. That's what the defense is Going to argue. The jury also rode by, I believe, not only the restaurant, they didn't go in the restaurant where he got takeout and the CVS where Clancy sent him to pick up prescriptions.
[36:06]
Attorney questioning witness
Listen, is that you entering the store? Yeah. And that section you head to on the right, is that the pediatric medication section?
[36:14]
Patrick Clancy
Yeah.
[36:15]
Attorney questioning witness
Okay, and while you're in that section looking for the medication, do you do something?
[36:22]
Patrick Clancy
I called Lindsey.
[36:24]
Attorney questioning witness
And why did you call Lindsey?
[36:26]
Patrick Clancy
Because what we were looking for wasn't there.
[36:29]
Attorney questioning witness
What was her demeanor during the call?
[36:34]
Patrick Clancy
She's pretty quiet. It sounded like she was busy. I remember hanging up, thinking, she's probably in the middle of giving baths or
[36:40]
Attorney questioning witness
something like that at 5:54:15pm is that you coming in behind that other couple there? Yeah. And what are you doing at that point when you're looking at the bags?
[36:51]
Patrick Clancy
I think I was looking for the bag with my name on it.
[36:54]
Attorney questioning witness
And the order that was listed under your name and phone number, correct?
[37:00]
Patrick Clancy
Uh, I think Lindsey ordered it.
[37:03]
Attorney questioning witness
Right. But do you recall whose name it was under when you picked it up?
[37:07]
Patrick Clancy
I don't recall specifically, but it could have been mine.
[37:11]
Nancy Grace
The jury could determine for themselves how far it was between the restaurant, the pharmacy and home. And remember, this is an errand. Two errands that she sent him on. And as soon as he left, she killed the children. I want you to hear what Duxbury Officer Vincent Cahill told the jury. And that's from our friends at East Idaho News.
[37:35]
Attorney questioning witness
Do you see him as you're going down the basement stairs?
[37:38]
Officer Vincent Cahill
Yes.
[37:38]
Attorney questioning witness
And where is he coming from and where is he going to?
[37:41]
Nancy Grace
It's coming from my left, heading to my right.
[37:44]
Attorney questioning witness
And what is his demeanor?
[37:46]
Nancy Grace
He was screaming.
[37:48]
Attorney questioning witness
And as you came down the stairs, did he point in a direction?
[37:51]
Patrick Clancy
Yes.
[37:52]
Attorney questioning witness
Where did he point to?
[37:53]
Nancy Grace
To the left side.
[37:54]
Attorney questioning witness
And is that where you headed?
[37:55]
Patrick Clancy
Yes.
[37:56]
Attorney questioning witness
And when you went to the left, did you see two children on the floor in that area of the basement?
[38:01]
Patrick Clancy
Yes.
[38:01]
Attorney questioning witness
And what did you do?
[38:04]
Nancy Grace
I checked the pulse of the five
[38:06]
Patrick Clancy
year old girl and passed that information along. And then when fire came on scene,
[38:12]
Nancy Grace
I then was backing away because fire was going to start taking over, taking care of the five year old girl.
[38:17]
Patrick Clancy
I then backed into the infant who
[38:19]
Shannon Hill
was on the ground.
[38:20]
Attorney questioning witness
You checked her for a pulse? Did she have a pulse?
[38:22]
Josh Colesrew
No.
[38:23]
Attorney questioning witness
And you said fire came down and started taking over. Was that firefighters from Duxbury Fire Department?
[38:30]
Officer Vincent Cahill
Yes, ma'.
[38:30]
Shannon Hill
Am.
[38:30]
Attorney questioning witness
And you said you started backing up. Is that when you bumped into Callan Clancy?
[38:34]
Shannon Hill
Yes, ma'.
[38:35]
Dr. Kendall Krause
Am.
[38:35]
Attorney questioning witness
And at that point in time, what did you do next?
[38:38]
Patrick Clancy
I checked Callan's pulse.
[38:40]
Attorney questioning witness
And did he have a pulse?
[38:41]
Dave Mack
No.
[38:42]
Shannon Hill
We saw Callan and Cora face up on the ground. I immediately jumped on the radio to ask for two additional ambulances, that we needed more help. And we. Patrick ran to Cora and I went to Callan.
[38:55]
Attorney questioning witness
While you were working on Callan, did you notice any injuries on him?
[38:58]
Dr. Katherine Berndorf
Yes.
[38:59]
Shannon Hill
He had deep strangulation marks around the entire circumference of his neck.
[39:03]
Nancy Grace
What does that mean, Dr. Kendall? Crown's deep strangulation marks around the entire circumference of the baby's neck. We're talking about Cowan, the baby.
[39:14]
Dr. Kendall Krause
So it means the impression from the ligature or the exercise band that are completely around the neck. Circumferentially, because of the pressure of the band itself, it cuts into the skin and makes kind of a deep red abrasion, and that's known as a ligature mark. When you see them circumferential about the neck, it means it's completely around the neck, which is consistent with being tied off around the baby's neck to strangle them.
[39:42]
Officer Vincent Cahill
He was laying on his back. His head was tilted to the right hand side. Looked at him kind of in the face area once we got closer. And his face was white. Gray. Lips were blue. Eyes were bloodshot. Looked like blood vessels were popped in his eyes.
[40:03]
Attorney questioning witness
Did you notice any injuries to his neck?
[40:06]
Officer Vincent Cahill
Seeing that, my first instinct was to kind of grab his head and tilt it to the side, see if I can get a pulse. But, I mean, based on my training experience from previous incidents, I knew it wasn't going to be good. So I moved the head. That's where I observed some red marks on that right hand side. I noticed she kind of looked like
[40:24]
Nancy Grace
she had some burst blood vessels around her eyes.
[40:29]
Shannon Hill
Did you make any observations of the color of her skin?
[40:35]
Patrick Clancy
Kind of pale, bluish.
[40:37]
Nancy Grace
Did she have a pulse?
[40:39]
Patrick Clancy
No.
[40:39]
Shannon Hill
Was she breathing?
[40:40]
Patrick Clancy
No.
[40:41]
Officer Vincent Cahill
We just started hearing loud screams. Upon his observation of us, myself and Officer hall, he proceeded to head in our direction, leaving that room. And at that point, he looked up and he screamed, she killed the kids.
[40:56]
Nancy Grace
She killed the effing kids. He was screaming. Claudia King, have you ever heard the phrase jury nullification?
[41:07]
Claudia King
I absolutely have, Nancy. And I could definitely see that happening here, where the jury looks at the horrific nature of these crimes and says, we don't really care what she was going through. She killed these kids and she's going
[41:24]
Nancy Grace
to have to pay for that. See, I think it's that's bass ackwards. I hear what you're saying. Shannon Hill joining us. SHANNON hill, NEWS in my mind, jury nullification of this case would be the jury knowing that she intended to commit this act, that there was pre planning, there was a scheme, there was time to form intent premeditation under the law. But the babies are not in the courtroom to be heard. All they see is mommy crying and your heart goes out to her. She's paralyzed. And with her sitting there crying and frail and pitiful, the dreamer say, you know what, the state proved its case, but we don't care. We're finding her not guilty.
[42:19]
Shannon Hill
Well, I think with the combination of the amount of times Lindsey Clancy reached out to medical professionals for help was on a number of different medications called the suicide hotline. Her husband Patrick had had her go to an inpatient treatment just a couple of weeks before this happened. It is an argument for the fact that she was dealing with some sort of postpartum psychosis or bipolar disorder. And I think that that is going to be the defense's biggest argument was, look, we have this woman who is reaching out countless times for help and wasn't getting the exact help that she needed.
[43:02]
Nancy Grace
If you know or think you know anything about this case, there is a legal theory called newly discovered evidence that can still be brought in at trial for either side. Dial 781-934-5656. Tonight we honor K9DD now protected while serving with Jackson County Sheriff's Michigan thanks to vested interest in K9s. DD now has a bullet and stab proof protective vest. These life saving vests, not standard, they cost up to twelve hundred dollars each. Vested interest in canines donates these vests, Narcan kits, first aid equipment to K9s all across the country. And they have proudly vested nearly 7,000 law enforcement canines help protect K9s who risk their lives protecting us. We remember American hero investigator Anthony Freeman, Bibb County Sheriff's Georgia, killed in the line of duty after seven years, leaving behind his wife, now widow Jessica and two children, Braden and Blakelyn, sentenced to life without dad. American Hero investigator Anthony Freeman. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight. I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.