NANCY GUTHRIE: HIDDEN MEANING OF CHILLING RANSOM NOTE

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: NANCY GUTHRIE: HIDDEN MEANING OF CHILLING RANSOM NOTE
Date: June 24, 2026
Podcast: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace (iHeartPodcasts and CrimeOnline)

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, Nancy Grace leads a detailed panel discussion on the baffling disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, focusing specifically on the chilling and cryptic ransom notes related to the case. The conversation uncovers new information about the ransom communications, the Guthrie family's response, law enforcement tactics, forensic evidence, and the immense difficulty of recovering remains in the Arizona desert. Notable guests include legal and forensic experts, investigative reporters, and crime analysts, each unpacking layers of this evolving case.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• Exploration of the hidden meaning behind the ransom notes in the Nancy Guthrie kidnapping.
• Analysis of the language in the notes and what it reveals about the perpetrators.
• Emotional and procedural impacts on the Guthrie family.
• Examining law enforcement’s strategies, the role of ransom payments, and blockchain tracing in the investigation.
• Practical challenges in search and recovery of potential remains.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Multiple Ransom Notes & Messages

Insight: The case is complicated by several ransom communications, all differing in tone, content, and credibility.

• Initial ransom notes provided to law enforcement and media, some credible, some suspected to be scams.

• Two key notes discussed:

  • One, received early, is straightforward, mentioning IPs and crypto wallets. [03:33]
  • Another, sent later to KOLD, suggests remorse and that Nancy Guthrie "perished soon after being taken" and is "buried in nature." [08:10]

• “Somebody knows something. …Please do the right thing for us, for our family...” — Quote attributed to Savannah Guthrie describing the family’s agony. [03:38]

2. The Hidden Meaning in Ransom Language

Insight: Careful scrutiny of how Savannah and others refer to Nancy, and the language used by purported kidnappers, may indicate they knew of Nancy’s death earlier than publicly acknowledged.

• Nancy and panel dissect phrases used by Savannah Guthrie:
  • “This is valuable to us.”
  • “We want to bring her home to celebrate.”
  • “It’s never too late to do the right thing.” [05:17]
• Nancy Grace interprets:

  “She is referring to her mother's body without saying it overtly… At the time, we all thought that echoed the theme of a celebration of life, which is, in effect, a funeral.” [05:39]

• Eric Dickerson (ex-FBI):

  “Normally, in these type of ransom demand responses...you want to use names to humanize the victim. The fact she used 'this' is a very interesting variation.” [20:46]

• The panel discusses the psychological impact and the possible implicit admission of death in the phrasing.

3. Investigation Challenges – Credibility, Veracity & Timeliness

Insight: Law enforcement had to sift through both credible and misleading communications.

• Harvey Levin (TMZ) shares that the actual ransom note he saw made no reference to Nancy Guthrie being dead, nor offered any apology, contradicting some media reports. [09:42]
• Multiple sources sent messages, including one self-identified witness with a criminal background demanding bitcoin for information. [11:02]
• Sydney Silvani (Crime Stories):

  "There are several different lines of people trying to profit off of this situation. We don't know if any of them are legitimate." [12:11]

4. Forensic Search & Recovery Difficulties

Insight: The Arizona desert is an almost impossible environment for a search without actionable leads.

• Mike Gould (NYPD K9, Houndstown):

  “Finding a body here would make finding a needle in a haystack as easy as can be… Look for birds… If you just try to cover this area, you would need an army of humans.” [22:03]

• Joseph Scott Morgan (forensic expert):

  “Scavengers… after this period of time would have removed the remains to a great degree, or at least dispersed them.” [27:54]

• Gould warns searches can only succeed with “an informant, a little bit more information," or by tracking animal and bird patterns. [25:17]

5. Law Enforcement Decisions & Missed Opportunities

Insight: The panel questions whether attempts to "tickle the wire" with a minimal crypto payment instead of paying ransom could have cost the family a chance at information.

• Nancy Grace:

  “Law enforcement convinced [Savannah] to, quote, tickle the wire. …They put in $152…It didn’t work, and the kidnapper was never heard from again.” [29:38]

• Eric Dickerson (ex-FBI):

  “It could have the opposite effect of alienating this negotiation process or basically ruining the opportunity…” [32:15]

• Dr. John Delatorre (forensic psychologist):

  “So overwhelming how difficult it must be to not have any resolution when you know that you could have just paid and potentially gotten at least something instead of what you have right now, which is nothing.” [33:32]

6. Blockchain Analysis & Ransom Tracing

Insight: Tracking the ransom payment is possible but real progress needs more evidence.

• David Richards (Blockchain Unmasked):

  “Blockchain is absolutely traceable. …That $152 potential sum … is traceable. If it were to move, from what I know, it hasn’t moved.” [46:42]

7. Psychological & Legal Implications

Insight: Language in the notes suggests remorse or inexperience, not typical of cartel or career criminals.

• Eric Dickerson:

  “The apologetic nature of the ransom ... is very unusual for organized crime or very calloused criminals. …There is some level of remorse...” [43:06]

• Panel speculates that at least one note may have been written by a female; possible use of intermediaries to distance the true perpetrator. [45:02]
• Tony Bruski:

  “A note like this probably did not come from a career criminal. …This feels much more like someone was trying to monetize a mistake.” [55:01]

• Nancy Grace: (on felony murder)

  “If a death occurs during the commission of a felony, that case is prosecuted as murder one, which triggers the Arizona death penalty...” [52:37]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nancy Grace:

  "She is referring to her mother's body without saying it overtly...At the time, we all thought that echoed the theme of a celebration of life, which is, in effect, a funeral." ([05:39])

• Savannah Guthrie (read by Nancy):

  "We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and we will pay." ([05:04])

• Harvey Levin (TMZ):

  "The ransom note makes no reference to Nancy Guthrie either dying or the kidnappers apologizing." ([09:42])

• Eric Dickerson (ex-FBI):

  "The fact that she used this. This is a very interesting variation…she already knew that there was either a possibility or a certainty that she had died." ([20:46])

• Mike Gould (NYPD K9):

  "You need an informant, a little bit more information. ...Birds and dogs are nature's biosensors. There is no technology that can duplicate what birds and dogs can do." ([25:17])

• Joseph Scott Morgan (forensics):

  "We have her blood there...This poor woman, Nancy, is barely ambulatory. ...All signs point to the fact that she's deceased and has been deceased for some time." ([48:17])

• Dr. John De la Torre (psychologist):

  “It’s so overwhelming how difficult it must be to not have any resolution when you know that you could have just paid and potentially gotten at least something instead of what you have right now, which is nothing.” ([33:32])

• Tony Bruski (podcast host):

  "This is probably not a cartel. …This is probably someone who went in for something other than Nancy, maybe even the wrong house..." ([55:01])

• Nancy Grace:

  "If you know or think you know anything about Mrs. Guthrie's disappearance, call toll free, 800-225-5324. The reward, $1.2 million plus, still on the table." ([56:53])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:14] — Overview of ransom communications and Savannah’s emotional plea.
• [05:17] — Nancy interprets Savannah Guthrie’s words, theorizing knowledge of death.
• [06:42] — Harvey Levin explains discrepancies among different notes.
• [12:11] — Crime Stories reporter outlines landscape of rumor, scam, and real evidence.
• [19:03] — Analysis of search efforts in Mexico and challenges faced.
• [20:46] — FBI perspective on choice of language in responses and notes.
• [22:03-24:50] — Mike Gould details on-the-ground search strategy and obstacles.
• [26:51] — Forensic explanation of decomposition and environmental risks.
• [29:38] — Review of law enforcement’s “tickle the wire” tactic and regrets.
• [32:45] — Psychological toll and ongoing anger within the Guthrie family.
• [39:39] — Blockchain tracing viability and analysis of crypto payment.
• [43:06] — Statement analysis: apologetic ransom notes’ rarity.
• [45:12] — Speculation about the gender of the note author and tactic behind it.
• [48:17] — Forensic evidence points toward early fatality.
• [50:05] — Realities and slim hope in searching for remains.
• [52:37-56:53] — Legal avenues for prosecution and analysis of criminal intent.

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Conclusion: Episode Takeaways

• Savannah Guthrie likely recognized the reality of her mother’s death long before it became public knowledge, as revealed in her word choices.
• The ransom communications are uncharacteristic of organized crime and may indicate an inexperienced perpetrator or even a crime of opportunity gone wrong.
• Law enforcement’s decision to hesitate and experiment with a minor crypto payment—possibly at the expense of negotiation—still haunts the case’s resolution.
• All experts agree: recovery of Nancy Guthrie’s remains without a tip or confession is highly unlikely due to the vast, inhospitable search area.
• The investigation continues via tips, blockchain tracing, and the ongoing hope that someone with knowledge will come forward.

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Call to Action

• Anyone with information is encouraged to contact authorities at 800-225-5324 as the reward for information remains over $1.2 million.

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This summary provides a comprehensive yet accessible guide to the episode’s major developments, emotional nuances, and investigative complexities, allowing listeners and non-listeners alike to grasp the current state and stakes of the Nancy Guthrie case.

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Bombshell tonight in the search for Nancy Guthrie. What is the hidden meaning on that chilling ransom note? Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[Tony Bruski]

The ransom notes, Nancy, that came in,

[Nancy Grace]

the good, the bad, the ugly, and the very, very serious regrets from within the investigation. The good notes are the two notes

[Eric Dickerson]

that came in early, the investigators believe.

[Nancy Grace]

IP addresses, crypto wallets.

[Eric Dickerson]

That made sense.

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Somebody knows something. And this is a news story today that is on your radar. But this is the life that my sister lives, that I live, that my brother lives, that our extended families live, that our children live every day. And we are in agony. We cannot be at peace. We need your help. We're begging for your help. And I'm not going to miss that opportunity. And so, please, if you're watching, no matter how small the reward is there, you can tell us. It can be anonymous. Please do the right thing for us, for our family, for our children. And we love our mom. And we'll never stop looking for her. Never.

[Nancy Grace]

Our friend Savannah Guthrie speaking out. That is from our friends at NBC. So how long has Savannah suspected that her mother is actually dead? How long this while her family, Savannah, her sister Annie, brother Cameron, all being tortured personally, keeping it to themselves while so many in the public are blaming them for their mother's disappearance, has the truth been right before us the entire time? I want you to look at Savannah's missive. Weeks ago, we received your message and we understand.

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We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and

[Nancy Grace]

we will pay in those few seconds if you are astutely interpreting it. We learn so much. We've got an all star panel to get to. But first, I want to go to Tony Bruski joining us, podcast star of Hidden killers with Tony Bruski. Mr. Brewski, thank you for being with us.

[Tony Bruski]

Thank you for having me.

[Nancy Grace]

Many of us wanted to believe so fiercely that there was a chance to bring Mrs. Guthrie home alive. But now, if you look and listen to what she is saying, her own words say it all. This is valuable to us. This is she referring to her mother's body without saying it overtly? We want to bring her home to celebrate. At the time, we all thought that echoed the theme of a celebration of life, which is, in effect, a funeral. We understand that she is dead. We will pay for her body. She ends by saying, it's never too late to do the right thing. It's never too late. In other words, we know our mom has perished, but it's not too late to do the right thing. What about it, Tony?

[Tony Bruski]

I think context is key to this. And now that we have some context text here with that second letter that Savannah has been aware of all of this time and her family has been processing for the last five months, that reaction that we saw all those months ago makes a lot more sense. We've all been speculating the verbiage that she was using because it seemed as though she was, in fact talking about her deceased mother at the time. But we didn't have any confirmation and nor do we completely as of this moment. But the context makes sense, that this was a message they believed came from the source of who took their mother. And an odd one at that. If you look at history, there hasn't been notes like this where someone has kidnapped someone and then sent the apology letter. It's rare to completely unheard of. So it's hard to number one. But as the FBI appears to be continuing to put these pieces together and these dots together, the fact that the legit legitimacy of this seems to come together in a way that was. Was unexpected really does tell us something new in this case. That. That. That maybe this went horribly wrong. And in my. My take on this is I don't think Nancy was ever really the target to begin with. And that's what led to this very bizarre apology in a case like this.

[Nancy Grace]

Now, that brings up a whole hornet's nest, a Pandora's box, because there's been a lot of back and forth in the last 30 hours. Did they apologize? Yes, they did. No, they didn't. Well, I can read you verbatim what the Arizona families network, including 3TV and CBS 5 and Kold State. They state and they give a quote. She perished shortly after she was taken. She is buried in nature now. We are truly sorry. We never intended to hurt her. But listen to Harvey Levin.

[Harvey Levin]

I want to talk about Nancy Guthrie and some communications I've had with the FBI that I haven't talked about until now. But I want to start with these reports that this ransom letter that we received kind of apologizes to Savannah Guthrie and her family for the kidnapping and that Nancy was no longer alive. That was not in the ransom note that we received. It is not in that ransom note at all. It does say that she's scared, but. Okay, but the ransom note makes no reference to Nancy Guthrie either dying or the kidnappers apologizing.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, so you've got Harvey Levin stating. And I have no reason to disbelieve Harvey. Harvey Levin, our friend at tmz. I thoroughly believe his ransom letter, which was deemed at the time to be potentially credible, did not mention that Ms. Guthrie is no longer alive. Or there was their apologies. But we have other notes, specifically the one to K O L D. There's more from Harvey.

[Harvey Levin]

There is a reference to Nancy Guthrie not being alive anymore, but that is from the person who sent us multiple emails saying that he knows or knew where Nancy Gunther was and where the kidnappers were, and he wanted money in return for information. We passed that along to the FBI as we did the ransom note. But this person kept sending us emails. And early on, he said, time is of the essence. And then a few days after the kidnapping, he said, time is no longer of the essence, meaning she wasn't alive.

[Nancy Grace]

That's Harvey Levin over at tmz. So to you, Sydney Silvani. Joining us, Crime stories, investigative reporter Sidney. There are a slew of notes coming from different sources because Harvey is saying, I believe, truthfully, there was no apology. And in neither of the two potentially credible ransom notes did they say Mrs. Guthrie had passed on. But then there are the other emails from a potential witness that says, I know where she is. Time is of the essence. I need money. I'm not coming forward because I've got a burglary conviction from 11 years ago. I will be putting myself in danger. Give me a bitcoin. There's that. Then there is. She perished shortly after she was taken, which seems to fit in. And Eric Dickerson can tell us more about this with the fact that there was no proof of life offered, and then everything went dead. So, Sidney Silvani, what is floating around out there? You've got Harvey's missives, you've got Kold, you've got K guns. What is out there? What are we talking about?

[Sydney Silvani]

Right, yeah. There definitely are several different lines of people trying to profit off of this situation. We don't know if any of them are legitimate. So it seems like TMZ got the same first letter that went out to Kold. And then they also have this second source coming to them, sending dozens of emails, and they claim to not be responsible, but to know who is. So you have those two sources at tmz, and then you have the same source that reached out to Kold, but then that same source is apparently responsible for the second note, which claims that Ms. Guthrie passed away shortly after her kidnapping. So there are definitely several sources floating around right now. Foreign

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Sequences shortened and simulated. What if your next favorite hobby came with a built in crew? That's cornhole. Whether you're brand new to the game or just looking for an excuse to get outside, there's a whole world of players out there ready to welcome you in local leagues, weekend tournaments, backyard throwdowns. It's all happening near you. Find your people at your next [e-mail] events new hobby, new friends. Same you just having a lot more fun.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

[Harvey Levin]

the FBI took it seriously. They felt, at least in my communications with them and I had numerous communications, they felt that this person might indeed know. For some reason, they never paid or never asked the Guthrie family to pay that person for information leading to the identity of the kidnappers and Nancy Guthrie's remains. I was always confused about that because I, I'm a skeptical guy. But there's something about those emails that made me believe that this guy may well have known who the kidnappers were. And the reason I say that is that initially he said in the first letter he said, time is of the essence, meaning you better hurry up, I can tell you where she is. But then the next day he wrote, time is no longer of the essence.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to special guests joining us. By the way, that's Harvey levin over at TMZ. Eric Drickerson, former FBI special agent, 20 years, who specializes in international kidnappings, supervised the FBI Mexico US border liaison and the Cross Border Violence Task Force. Currently CEO, EAD Global, providing security services and mitigating global risk for companies also. And I find this very significant former attache for Mexico City office at the U.S. embassy. Eric, thank you for being with us tonight. Right now we know that the only people searching for Nancy in the Mexican area is the Buscanda Corazones Nogales. That's a group of ladies with nothing but T shirts and sticks. Why?

[Eric Dickerson]

Yeah, it's not uncommon for volunteer organizations to want to come forward and assist in cases like this. Through my conversations with Mexican authorities, they're also following up on leads as those leads come in. So we do also have the attention of the Mexican government following up on relevant and credible leads. As you know, some of the information that they've received has been sparse or hasn't been detailed enough to follow up on those investigations. The information they have received has been. Has been investigated. And as you know, to date, there's been no result on locating Nancy Guthrie.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, Eric Jerkerson, curious as to what you think about these series of ransom notes, because if you analyze what Savannah is saying, this is valuable to us. She's not saying bring my mom home for Christmas. She's not saying bring my mom home for her birthday. This. What is this? Is she referring to her mother's body? Bring her home to celebrate, which in our culture refers to a celebration of life. We understand. And she seems to isolate that. We understand that she is dead. We understand what you're telling us. We will pay for her body. It's never too late to do the right thing. In other words, even if her mom has passed on, it's not too late. What do you make of it?

[Eric Dickerson]

Normally, in these type of ransom demand responses, our negotiators for the FBI would typically want to humanize the victim, and they would want to use words like my mother or her first name, Nancy. They want to use these names to further humanize the victim and play into the consciousness of the abductors or kidnappers. The fact that she used this. This is a very interesting variation I would read into that is that she already knew that there was either a possibility or a certainty that she had died. And when they say, for instance, the closing statement is never too late. I read into that as the consequences are what they are. And although it may appear to be too late to help us, it isn't.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us now is Mike Gould, founding member, NYPD K9 unit, former police lieutenant, and the president of the houndstown charity. I want you to see what Mike has been doing.

[Mike Gould]

I'm standing in the foothills of the Arizona desert, a pleasant 110 degrees. I'm situated about 10 miles south of Tucson and between Nogales and Tucson. Tucson is obviously where Nancy Guthrie disappeared. I will tell you, finding a body here would make finding a needle in a haystack as easy as can be. I would give rescue workers a little tip if they all want to close in on a body or remains. Look up, not down. Look for birds, look for vultures, look for predatory birds that are seeking food. So if they're circling around, that would be a good place to start. But if you just try to cover this area, you would need.

[Nancy Grace]

It's.

[Mike Gould]

It's. It would be impossible. You need either a tip, an informant, or follow the birds. They'll bring you to at least probably animal carcasses, but maybe human remains, who knows?

[Nancy Grace]

Dobby thrown off by the name of his charity, Houndstown Charity, like the dog hound, Founding member of the NYPD K9 unit. Former police lieutenant. That just doesn't happen overnight. It's my understanding, Mike Gould, first of all, welcome to our program tonight. It's my understanding you drove from Nancy Guthrie's home all the way to Mexico. What did you learn?

[Mike Gould]

Yeah, Nancy. So you know, I was very frustrated. I have a difficult time looking at videos and maps and hearing different things. I need to see things to properly conceptualize it. So all the talk about the route from her home to Mexico, I needed to go there to see the terrain, see the geography, to really intimately understand it. What I learned was when they talk about her being possibly found in nature. 99% of Arizona is nature. 1% is the cities, unlike New York City or other metropolitan areas. So this is a vast, vast desert, hot and humid, which is good actually for discrete recovering remains. But, but I found that this is going to be, it's, it's not possible. You would need an army of humans to search anywhere within a 10 mile radius of where she, she disappeared from.

[Nancy Grace]

You are seeing from our friend Cheryl McCollum at Zone 7 podcast exactly what Mike Gould is talking about. So Mike, are you trying to tell me that the women's group, the Buskando Corazones Nogales is not going to find her? Because they did find over 20 sets of remains. I believe it was 25.

[Mike Gould]

Well, Nancy, nothing's impossible, but, but you know, as I said in that video, the first thing is searchers rescue is very well intentioned. But if you're walking through the 110 degree desert with sticks looking down at the ground, you might get lucky and trip over a carcass or remains of a human or an animal. But it's got to be pure luck. There's no systemic or systematic process there. You need an informant, you need a starting area. Obviously our home is the starting area and that's been, I hope, fairly well searched. But once you get beyond the one or two miles from our home, you are in complete nature, varying different terrains. So the only hope in my mind is an informant, a little bit more information. And as I said, train search and rescuers will use birds, excuse me, predatory birds, to bring them to a location to start. Birds and dogs are nature's biosensors. There is no technology that can duplicate what birds and dogs can do. They're the Only creatures that can find microscopic odors in the environment. So human visual searches is not going to work. There's no technology, drones, heat sourcing, because there is no heat. Any remains that is there has already assimilated into the. The temperature of the desert. So dogs, nature is going to be. The animals, I think are going to be the ones once they get a little bit more tipped, but they're not magical instruments. You just can't let dogs go through the desert and think you're going to find something.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. To Joseph Scott Morgan, professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a hit podcast series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. He is a death investigator with over 10,000 death scenes under his belt. I know you just heard everything that Mike Gould said. Translate it. Death investigator talk.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Well, specifically, I love the analogy about, you know, a needle in a haystack, making that look easy. I've been in this area of Arizona and Mexico. I was stationed there in the army many, many years ago. And it is vast. It is not like working in a normal, normal environment. Here's the thing that I'm thinking about relative to the remains. We have this group that has recovered this mass burial down in Mexico. Now, we have to emphasize the word burial when they're saying she is with nature. Now, I'm wondering if this was a surface deposition of remains, because I think a lot of people are just assuming they dug a hole in the ground and placed her in there. That might not be the case, Nancy. She may be on top of the ground. And if that's the case, it is going to be very difficult to find her remains because scavengers, scavengers, after this period of time would have removed the remains to a great degree, or at least dispersed them.

[Nancy Grace]

Why are you airbrushing the truth? The truth is, if she had been Miss Guthrie, Mrs. Guthrie, the sweet and gentle Nancy Guthrie, had been dumped unceremoniously, quote, in Nature. Scavengers. You're talking about animals ripping her body apart. And Savannah, Cameron and Annie have to go to bed every night imagining their mother somewhere, either in an unmarked grave, a shallow grave, or lying on the surface, unmarked, being torn apart by animals.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yes, that's accurate.

[Nancy Grace]

I believe that's what you're saying.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yes, that is precisely what I'm saying. You know, I don't know how bright these individuals are that committed this crime. They might. They might be low IQ for all I know.

[Nancy Grace]

To Eric Dickerson joining us, former special agent with the FBI 20 years specializing in international kidnappings. So can we just. Very quickly, I'm going to bring in David Richards and Dr. De la Torre on this as well. Eric Dickerson, you have a witness seemingly stating, I know where she is. I've seen her. She's in Mexico. Time is of the essence. Then writing back, hey, time is no longer of the essence. Which supports the theory that was told to Kold Mrs. Guthrie perished shortly after she was kidnapped. It was unintentional and they do express regret. My point, Eric, to you is, did we technical legal term f up any possibility of finding Mrs. Guthrie or her remains? Because reportedly. And I'll circle back to you, Tony and Sydney on this, so get ready. Reportedly, Savannah wanted to pay the 4 mil. She wanted to either negotiate down to something they could quickly afford or pay, but instead, law enforcement convinced her to, quote, tickle the wire. In other words, put some money in that crypto account, that's David Richards specialty, and tickle the kidnapper to see if they could lure them into making a move. So they put in $152, which, you know, that's about the price of Chinese food delivery for a family of five. Okay. It didn't work, and the kidnapper was never heard from again. So did we. Latin phrase f up all chances of finding her by discounting those emails from the witness, the alleged witness, and by not at least negotiating anything with the perp.

[Eric Dickerson]

Okay, that's a very good question. The first thing that law enforcement is going to do is they're going to take every piece of reporting, every ransom call, every ransom note, and they're going to look at basically minimal, three aspects. They're going to look at the veracity, whether it's true, what they're reporting. They're going to look at the credibility of the person or the sources reporting it, and they're going to look at the timeliness of that information. I am sure that in this case, they received a plethora of. Of reporting from various sources. My understanding is both the family and law enforcement were able to determine that there was one source of credible reporting that matched in terms of an IP address, and they focused really on that. Now, to your question about the ransom demand and the tickler or the minimal payment, that is very unusual to request such a high amount of money and then pay such a low amount. As you mentioned, it could have the opposite effect of alienating this negotiation process or basically ruining the opportunity that was presented. The intent is to find the source that withdraws the money or that accesses the $152. The flip side of that, of course, is you lose the only opportunity that you have that connects you with the abductors.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. John Delatorre joining us, renowned psychologist specializing in forensic psychology, psychological consultant to Project Absentis, a nonprofit that searches for missing people. Dr. De la Torre, the frustration, the anger, the regret that the family must be feeling if their gut instinct was just pay it, pay what? We can try to negotiate, do anything, bring her home. And now we find out they've known for some time that she's very likely dead. And they did. The law enforcement did some tickle the wire trick.

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[Nancy Grace]

And to Sydney Silvani, crime Stories, investigative reporter. So this has been in the works. Law enforcement knew. Why did they not release it? We think we know why.

[Sydney Silvani]

Well, there's a couple of reasons that are possible. First is that they thought the public may lose interest in this case if they learned that Guthrie was dead. So they wanted to keep this close to the vest, to keep people bringing in tips, searching their memory for what could have possibly happened to her. They were also unable to verify that Nancy Guthrie was dead, but they wanted the chance to be able to independently, independently verify that themselves. And lastly, they wanted to keep this close to the vest because as long as the public wasn't aware of these details, these are things that only the true kidnapper would know. So they wanted to be able to verify and make sure that they had the right person, because only the kidnapper would know what language was used in that ransom note.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Fast forward to where we are tonight. Straight out to David Richards joining us out of this jurisdiction, Arizona founder, CEO Blockchain Unmasked, an intelligence firm specializing in cryptocurrency related crimes, fraud activity, asset tracing. You can find him@blockchain unmasked.com all we have said tonight culminates in your opinion now David Richards, Blockchain analysis Chasing crypto can be done. Do I have to say Silk Road? Do I have to say IRS doj, the Zhang investigation, recovering millions and millions of dollars through blockchain analysis. It can be done and it can still be done.

[David Richards]

I think in this, this instance there's a bit more nuance to the situation. The facts that hasn't been fully clarified by the panel just yet. We are not privy to the case file. We don't know exactly what information was available and when we can speculate. I will say with specifics to the bitcoin and the ransom payment. That February 6th seems to be the reported date of a letter of notice that potentially Nancy Guthrie wasn't still with us. The bitcoin payment was made after that fact. So you know, the question of did one cause the other. And it doesn't seem to be the case. It's potentially likely that the bitcoin payment may not have even been by the FBI. Do we have a verification from FBI directly that says we did do this thing because the address was public, anybody could have made that payment. So there's still some, some gray area on the facts that could allow us to speculate or not on what actually happened. And without that full case file, it's a bit more challenging to look back. Hindsight is 20 20. What could or should have happened? Did they make a mistake? None of us know exactly the data that they had on hand at the

[Nancy Grace]

time of well, it seems based on what Harvey Levin is telling us from TMZ that it is the feds, in fact, who tickled the wire and put the 152 in.

[Harvey Levin]

Listen, what if TMZ does a documentary and that we try and get in touch with this guy and even pay the money and if he takes us to the location, then you get resolution. The Guthrie family gets resolution. And if he scams us, he scams us from tmz.

[Nancy Grace]

So the bitcoin address was not public. TMZ knew about it. Kold may have known about it and the feds knew about it. The Fed specifically did not want TMZ to pay any money. So it wasn't tmz. It's not Kold process of elimination, it's the Feds. Eric Dickerson, what are your observations regarding the unusual language by the perps?

[Eric Dickerson]

The FBI and US Government do not pay ransoms. Now, that could be that they deposit an amount for investigative purposes and use it for that purpose. But the ransom demands and subsequent ransom and payments are are usually paid by the victim's family or a third person. The government has a policy of not paying ransom payments. To your question about what I'm reading into the three notes sent by the kidnappers on she has perished, it's very unusual language to use that. But in statement analysis, we look at that as sort of distancing and minimizing the impact or the results of this crime. Paris is a much more delicate word than died or killed, as is she is now with nature rather than saying we have left her body somewhere. So I read into that as sort of distancing themselves and minimizing their activity in this crime. And the apologetic nature of the ransom of the we're sorry about this is very unusual for organized crime or very calloused criminals. They're non apologetic. And that would indicate to me that there is some level of remorse and there is some level of pressure that's being applied to these criminals that they're just trying to shake off. But again, it's a very unusual thing for a criminal, especially a seasoned criminal or organized crime, to apologize for the results of their activities.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, also, there are speculations rampant tonight, Eric Jickerson, that the author of at least one of the notes is a female.

[Eric Dickerson]

Yeah, that's a very interesting observation, although it doesn't fall out of the realm of possibility because of course it could be either gender. We don't know until we know, as we say. But also, kidnappers can use somebody else to conduct the negotiation process. And that serves two purposes. One, the method in which they communicate the language which they use and also provides another layer of protection for the perpetrators. So it's not surprising that it could be a female, it could be a male, it could be something that's not, not directly involved in the physical abduction or physical kidnapping.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, I think I'm trying to process everything you're saying. There's one thing I can tell you. The guy, the porch guy, we gave him that moniker at the get go. That is not who wrote these missives. No, he's bumbling. It's not him. He did not write them. Back to David Richards joining a CEO Blockchain unmasked.com David, back to my original question. There have been many, many successful blockchain prosecutions. They can be traced. So can we do that now? Because we are told that the feds are working on that still. They haven't given up.

[David Richards]

Yeah, blockchain is absolutely traceable. It's on a public ledger. So we can always at most times determine the flow of funds from sender to recipient and onwards. So that is possible. The $152 potential sum that was, was deposited into the wallet is traceable. If it were to move, from what I know, it hasn't moved. What I would believe is that it's not significant enough to move. However, I. I believe it's more likely that if again, we're taking what Harvey said is true, the FBI or federal law enforcement did make that payment even after the fact that they got a notice that Nancy Guthrie may not be alive. It may have been to elicit a response, an additional communication via email or some other way. The attacker says, hey, what's up with that? Something that will entice some more interaction. Not just blockchain related. We can trace blockchain transactions. However, to, to close a case we need a lot more evidence. Open source intelligence, location information, more data to be able to identify an actor.

[Nancy Grace]

Jo Scott Morgan, Professor, Forensics, Jacksonville State University and star of Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe, what can you tell me regarding the hard evidence that we have that we know of that would indicate Mrs. Guthrie is dead?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

I hold to this and I have from the beginning, she was violently assaulted at Jump Street. We have her blood there. We have that blood deposition on the front porch. That's evidence that didn't just spontaneously happen. This is trauma related. She is either she is expirating blood there, we can see it in the finer drops and it's coming out of her nose and her mouth. So I still, you know, I felt like that she was probably popped in a mouth or popped in the nose just to try to subdue her. Maybe she was resisting being carried out. I have no idea. And then you couple that with her need. This is a. This is. This poor woman, Nancy, is barely ambulatory. In other words, she cannot even move around without some kind of assistance. And she's dependent upon medications. Nancy, to have any level of quality of life. All right, so she's been deprived of that. She's been traumatized. Yeah. You know, if you're expecting me to say that I'm surprised that she's deceased, I will never say that I've felt like this from the beginning. And so there's no surprises here. I think that all, all signs point to the fact that she's. That she is deceased and has been deceased for some time.

[Nancy Grace]

Mike Gould, who has conducted extensive searches for her driving all the way from her home to Mexico. Mike, based on what we are hearing without a witness, which has been totally. That that bridge has been burned. Finding her is truly like a needle in haste.

[Mike Gould]

Yeah, absolutely. Nancy. One thing I'd point out, you know, death investigations, discovery of human remains is a morbid topic. But we kind of have to talk about it bluntly. And I agree with Joseph completely. Within the first 72 hours of this case, Nancy Guthrie never fit the profile of a kidnap victim in any way, shape or form. 84 year old, pre existing medical conditions, limited mobility and her blood was found at the crime scene. So. And there was never ever proof of life after that fact. So to. And again, we hope, springs eternal. We would love to know that she was taken somewhere and she's being held somewhere in Mexico. We started chasing shadows. If you remember, we were looking at gloves hidden in a homeless encampment. We thought that was the glove of the person on the porch. So we're chasing shadows. And at this point, it is still like finding a needle in the haystack without an informant. Or if this female, possible female person is related somehow to the kidnapper and wants to soften up. Rather than say my boyfriend dumped the body. She said she's in nature to soften the blow and maybe trying to, you know, make sense of this out of guilt. These are the things that I'm hoping and I think it might happen. I think we're going to get a little bit more information regarding finding her remains. That's going to be a little challenging. It's not going to happen without an informant or some evidence to somewhere she is. Because you cannot search the Arizona desert Randomly with. I don't care what technology you're using. You know, dogs in nature are very good, as I said, biosensors. And recovering human remains. We do it quite frequently. And the Arizona desert, frankly, mummifies remains rather than liquefies them. So there are some potential. There's possibilities as far as scavenger animals. Certainly they're going to disperse birds and scavengers. They'll disperse the remains. But. But dogs could, if they're in a certain area, certainly find those. They could detect those things. But frankly, it hasn't been that. Well, I'm working on a case that's 25 years old, looking for a woman's remains, upstate New York. So it's possible. And this case isn't going on as long as one would think for us. We want it. It's in the public domain and we want resolution to it. But my. My hope is that the case is going to be solved. Maybe not this month, maybe not this year, but it's going to be resolved. And hopefully somebody may confess to where her body is.

[Nancy Grace]

To Tony Brusky joining us, podcast star of Hidden Killers with Tony Bruski. Tony, apology, shmapology. Don't care. All last night, the social media, the Internet was breaking with. They did apologize. No, they didn't. Who cares if she's dead? Who cares if it was intentional? Not intentional. Because a felony murder, if a death occurs during the commission of a felony, that case is prosecuted as murder one, which triggers the Arizona death penalty, which right now is the needle. So we've got an assortment of underlying felonies. You can go with burglary. Her home was burgled. That's the first felony. Second kidnap taken, even if just out her front door. Under the theory, the legal theory of exportation. If I kidnap you and I take you two inches, it's a kidnap versus to Mexico. Steal. A kidnap, there's no legal requirement of how far you have to take the victim. So I've already got burglary, kidnap, aggravated assault. Do I need a gun? Do I need a knife? No, I do not. The weapon for aggravated assault can be a car. It can be a baseball bat, it can be a foot, it can be a hand. Aggravated assault. I've already named three felonies to underlife felony murder. I don't care who says we're sorry. If this is all true, Mrs. Guthrie is dead. And Savannah, Annie and Cameron have to live with that every day in nature. My rear end, that's a disposal site somewhere in the Mexican Desert. That's. That's what in nature means. It makes me think of, have you ever seen Snow White? And she goes out and the little birds are flying all around her. What a crot of BS in nature. I want her brought home for a proper burial. I want these jackals behind bars at the least.

[Tony Bruski]

Without a doubt, you want these people behind bars. And I think. I think what. What the key part of this, these notes, these pieces of information that we're now learning about, they tell us something about who these people are more than it is softening the blow of what happened. It tells us a note like this probably did not come from a career criminal. It probably did not come from someone who has a lot of reps in kidnapping people. When you look at this, does any of this sound like anyone truly even wanted to have Nancy Guthrie in their possession to begin with? This feels much more like someone was trying to find a way to basically monetize a mistake, and they realized, oh, it's not so easy to get a ransom paid to begin with, and then did the best they could with not a lot of knowledge on the topic. So while the notes, I feel the rage putting in there, that softened the blow, but I don't think that's the intent. I think what we need to glean out of this is this is probably not a cartel. This is probably not a career criminal. This is probably someone who went in for something other than Nancy, maybe even the wrong house, is how I am looking at this. And ended up in a debacle that they took a shot at. Maybe monetizing, didn't work out too well, and now they have gone underground. And if we want to get them to communicate, we need to inspire them to. And I think they're going, here's all the things we're going to get you for. We're going to put you to death. Death. That's the last thing that's going to get them to come. And that's what the. The verbiage.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, if they have. If anyone hasn't come forward with 1.2 plus million dollars on the table. They ain't.

[Tony Bruski]

They ain't.

[Nancy Grace]

We're going to need a witness. Speaking of, if you know or think you know anything about Mrs. Guthrie's disappearance, call toll free, 800-225-5324. The reward, $1.2 million plus, still on the table. We remember American hero, Sergeant Gregory Hunter. Grand Prairie PD, Texas. Shot in the line of duty. Leaving behind wife Denise, daughter Aaron. American hero, Sergeant Gregory Hunter. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night and until then, good night, friend.

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