← Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
NANCY GUTHRIE MISSING 4 MONTHS, SEARCH AT CHILLING TURNING POINT
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This is an I Heart Podcast guaranteed Human Crime stories brought to you by Penn Foster. When a student falls behind, the gap doesn't just stay the same, it can grow. Not every student fits in a traditional classroom, and when it's not working, staying on the same path can make things worse. When that happens, another option matters. Penn Foster High School is an accredited online diploma program built for flexibility. It is self paced. That means students can work on their own schedule, fitting school around jobs, family, sports or other responsibilities. It's a different path, but it's a path forward, one that gives students more control over how they learn. The focus is simple. Work toward earning an accredited high school diploma and toward what comes next. If you or your family need a change, visit Penn Foster Edu Nancy. That's P E N n Foster Edu Nancy and learn more. There is an answer. Introducing the all new Mazda CX5 featuring more connection hey Google, where's the nearest Pilates class Safety that has your back? More discovery on the scenic routes in the details and more control in changing weather. The all new Mazda CX5 more to move every side of you. See it in five films at mazdausa.com fivesides Google is a trademark of Google LLC. Sequences shortened and simulated this July 4th,
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come celebrate at America's Block Party hosted by America 250. America's Block Party is a can't miss 4th of July concert happening at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. Experience music, performances from major artists, patriotic tributes and the kickoff to giving 4th, helping to make July 4th the largest day of giving in American history. It's more than just fireworks. Learn more about this landmark celebration@america250.org
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since he got out, bad things keep happening. Keep Fear. A new series is streaming June 5th on Apple TV. Why would I want to hurt you? Starring Academy Award winner Javier Bardem. Why? And Academy Award nominee Amy Adams. He is coming after my family. Kate fear streaming June 5th on Apple TV. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. She is 84 years old. Her health, her heart is fragile and every hour and minute and second and every long night has been agony since then. She is without any medicine. She needs it to survive. We need your help. Joining us tonight, Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave Mack. Dave, what's the latest?
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Nancy we are now four months into the investigation of Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping and believe it or not, we have new information to share right now. 1. We just found out that Savannah Guthrie has used over a half million dollars of her own money to privately hire a security team investigators to look into the disappearance of her mother, her own money. Now, some have determined that this means she lacks confidence in the investigation, not necessarily the case. Savannah Guthrie is a daughter who wants her mother back, and she has the means to spend the money. So she has spent $500,000 to hire a team of investigators to help find her mother. We also have found out Michael Ruiz, FOX Digital reporter, who is on the ground in Arizona and has been covering this case since the beginning. He has insiders inside the investigation that tell him the Pima county detectives are still investigating video footage from inside and outside Nancy Guthrie's home. Now, we all know the video that's been released to the public. Porch guy, right? Well, there might be more. They're still analyzing video footage, according to the insider. Also still analyzing forensic data found inside the home. Forensic evidence found inside Nancy Guthrie's home still being looked at. Also, something else has come out, Nancy, as the online theories have really taken over and you know, we're looking for why would it happen? Who had the motive and means to. To pull off this kidnapping. And many have thrown out an idea that the kidnappers were people known or person or people known to Nancy Guthrie. They're pointing now to this fact. Remember, we had the ransom notes that came out early in the investigation. The FBI said some are probably nothing, but maybe one or two might have been real. Well, if you remember, the ransom notes were not followed up on. There was never proof of life. There was never a follow up that is leading some experts to believe that this kidnapping, it was never about money. It was never about getting instant wealth, you know, digital currency. It was never about that. The fact that there is a lack of funds, follow up on the ransom notes indicates to some experts this was personal. Now, that breaks the case in a whole different direction. So the update possible just a personal kidnapping for personal re. For revenge or something. But we also have $500,000 being spent by Savannah Guthrie on private investigation. And we have Michael Ruiz, FOX digital reporter. His, his source is indicating that the FBI, the Pima county detectives are still investigating video footage found inside the home of Nancy Guthrie. That's the latest on what's happening in the Guthrie investigation. After four months, I got frustrated because
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I knew from my sources they were
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trying to keep you guys out.
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They did.
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They did keep you out.
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And look, here's.
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Here's how this matters in an investigation.
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The first 48 hours of anyone's disappearance are the most critical. And here's how these cases works. It is a state matter. It's a state and Local law enforcement matter. What we, the FBI do is say, hey, we're here to help. What do you need? What can we do? And for four days we were kept out of the investigation. And when we were finally let in, Sean, look what we did. We went in and got the ring doorbell. And we said, hey, is anyone talking to Google? I called the leadership at Google and I said, look, we know that there was not a subscription service to capture all of the data that would have been captured had there been a subscription service. But can we go into the cache? Can we go into the data before it's deleted and see what we can find? That's why you have that image, because the FBI worked with Google to put that image out. Another thing we asked to do, you
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guys got that tape, which was the
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biggest breakthrough during that case.
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We could have gotten it days before.
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Now, the Pima county sheriff today responded to Cash's comments on our podcast saying
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the sheriff's department did immediately start coordinating with the bureaucracy. Not buying it. Nice try that from our friend Sean Hannity at Fox News and on his podcast hanging out with Sean Hannity where he has an incredible interview with Kash Patel. And I learned a lot. Straight out to Alison Weiner joining us, senior investigative reporter, author of a brand new book, Murder in the Media. Hey, New York control room, let's see that book, Murder in the Media. That's going to be a bestseller. Alison, thank you for being with us. I want to follow up on what Cash Patel.
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Thank you.
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Was saying. It's stunning. We also learned he has a plane on standby. But let's take one thing at a time. What do you make of it?
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I'm not buying it either. We were there. I was there with Brian Anton and we were in Arizona for, in Tucson for almost two months. And in the early days of that investigation, there was no FBI. He had that scene with just the sheriffs for four days. It wasn't until the fifth day when the FBI came in. Furthermore, in those first four days, in one of those days, they thought it was just a walk away and that she had just gone meandering despite the family saying that she didn't have cognitive issues and was not ambulatory. So I have to say that all the crime scene collection in those first four days, whatever they were doing before they released the crime scene, they released the crime scene before the FBI got in. Even.
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We have Quantico, best lab in the world. I had a, I had a fixed wing aircraft on the ground ready to move it immediately through the night.
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Did they just say no?
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And they said, we're sending it to Florida.
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Amazing. Amazing. I don't know whether to cry, laugh, or go take all the air out of nanos tires. I'm not sure which way I should go. That's from our friend Sean Hannity and his new podcast, Hang out with Sean Hannity. Let me understand what I'm hearing. Alison. Kash Patel had a fixed wing aircraft on standby ready to take DNA taken from Mrs. Guthrie's home to Quantico to arguably the best lab in the world. And they were turned down. Did I hear that correctly, Allison?
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I don't think they were even turned down. I think they didn't tell them that they had taken it to their own private lab until after the fact. And the private lab is in Florida. It's a good lab. But the basic fact is, is that the FBI lab is free and one of the best in the world. So I'm not quite sure about that. But actually, Nancy, there's even more. We learned that hrt, the hostage rescue team from Quantico, had flown in and was waiting at the Air Force. And when they did that run to Rio Rico. The SWAT team went to Rio Rico to look into a suspect there or potential suspect. They did not. They got there and they went there. The sheriff's team, SWAT team, local team, without even racing there, before the HRT could get there, even though they were on standby as well. Some of the best guys and ladies in the business.
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You're not kidding. Alison Weiner joining us, brand new book, Murder in the Media. Okay, let's hear this one more time. I want to hear specifically what Patel says.
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We have Quantico, best lab in the world. I had a. I had a fixed wing aircraft on the ground ready to move it immediately through the night.
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Did they just say no?
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And they said, we're sending it to Florida?
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They just said, we're sending it to Florida. From our friend Sean Hannity. Hang out with Sean Hannity. Joining me now, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit podcast series Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. But for our purposes, he is a death investigator that has been to over 10,000 death scenes. And he's not just a talking head that blathers on and on with no experience. In fact, I first met him in a heated argument when he was with the Fulton County Medical Examiner's office because I needed evidence then and it wasn't ready. Through no fault of his, I Might add, that's how I met Joe Scott. Morgan, Joe Scott. Did you hear what Patel said? And I agree with Hannity. I'm not buying it. Every turn, at every turn, the feds are being thwarted. And what does that mean? I don't care about some turf battle. I care about finding Nancy Guthrie. And tonight we're learning more and more about how nanos, let me just say technical, legal phrase, screwed the pooch left, right. No matter what he was offered, he said no. What difference has it made that the feds were not allowed in and they did not take access of that fixed wing aircraft to get the DNA sent immediately?
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Let's preach a little bit, Nancy. Pride cometh before the fall. And that's what this is all about. And it's so critical in these moments when you can avail yourself of the services of the feds. You know, their abilities to what they can do are almost limitless. Think about how much money we dump into an organization like the FBI. And what Patel was saying, relative to Quantico, it's. It's what everybody else, you know, shoots for in the area of forensic science, relative to have those, Those assets at your disposal. And for whatever reason, for whatever reason, they did not want to avail themselves of these opportunities. And you know, the thing about it, Nancy, and you know a lot about chain, chain of evidence, right? The more hands evidence passes through, okay, it becomes degraded, not just in the physical sense, you know, when you think about that, the sample, for instance, if you're talking about DNA, because it's very, very fragile, but also from chain of custody or the chain of evidence, relative to how many hands is it passing through before it's processed? Those little markers along the way kind of dictate the validity of whatever your end game is. My biggest question about this case relative to DNA is was it ever compromised along the way? You know, when you send it to Florida, Right. And it's not in the same chain that the FBI uses. And I know that they avail themselves of other, Other services like Othram. They. You. You run the risk of really having a problem here. So, you know, looking back, and anybody can Monday morning quarterback it, but this isn't Monday morning, Nancy. The game is still on at this point in time. We have not seen any evidence of Mrs. Guthrie at this point. And this is critical. This is not like this thing's been adjudicated and we're sitting over coffee and we're talking about it or whatever the case. Hold on just a moment.
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Let me understand what you're Saying. You're saying that the delay may have cost. Let's just be blunt. The delay may have cost Nancy Guthrie her life. Delay, delay, delay. How long was she alive? She could still be alive. And I pray, I pray for a happy reunion for our friend Savannah Guthrie. But delay, delay, delay, that's what happened. And it could have cost her her life.
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Yeah, you're absolutely right, because they didn't hop on this. The other thing that they didn't hop on it, to Allison's point earlier about the security of the scene. If they had secured this thing from Jump Street. Nancy, okay, no, no pizza deliveries, no pool boys, all that, all that, that nonsense. If they had secured it, they would have gotten to this cloud earlier that contains this information, and it could have gotten into the hands of people. And again, I don't want to beat this drum over and over again, but when we see those tiles there, they could have done electrostatic lifts on those that we actually see where this guy is putting his feet in this image right here. If they had frozen that scene, you could have done shoe lifts off of that. That's gone. That's gone like a vapor, usually.
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Alison Weiner joining us, investigative senior reporter, News Nation, author of new book, Murder in the Media. Alison, normally when prosecuting a case, putting together a case, discussing a case, analyzing a case, I rarely go into coulda, shoulda, woulda, because, frankly, it's a waste of time. You need to keep moving forward because every minute you delay, you're losing the possibility of preserving evidence or finding a witness or finding Nancy Guthrie. But I think it's worth noting how badly this torpedoed the case. In a nutshell, everything Jo Scott Morgan said was true. But simply put, the delay in the DNA, I mean, look, we still don't even have it. We still don't have it because of the delay caused by nanos. Who knows what a positive match could have meant in saving the life of Nancy Guthrie or finding her?
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Alison it's really, you know, at first we tried not to focus on the sheriff because we really wanted to focus on Nancy Guthrie, but he was just too reckless of a presence to ignore because he was providing even the media with conflicting information about timelines, about, you know, yeah, my bad. I opened up the scene too soon. I wouldn't do that again.
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You know, he.
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There was an opportunity for FBI to come right in there and do evidence collection, which is also, you know, what they know how to do. Instead, he had inexperienced homicide investigators there, including the sergeant who reportedly we've reported, did not have from an insider inside of the investigation did not have any experience investigating a homicide. So we have these guys in the sheriff's office giving conflicting information to the public. They don't know for weeks that they should be looking at all of January preserve information on their ring cams because that wasn't also given out as information to the public. So I think I don't know what should have could have happened. But I do know that the sheriff has a long standing animosity towards the FBI and that became apparent in terms of access what he told and what he didn't tell and I think to the detriment of the Guthrie family and finding Nancy Guthrie.
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Crime Stories brought to you by Penn Foster Sometimes things don't go as planned with school. Whether you're looking to go back and finish what you started or you're the parent of a teen who's falling behind in traditional school, having an alternative can make all the difference. Penn Foster High School is an accredited online diploma program built to be flexible with self paced courses so students can work at their own pace and move forward. Visit PennFoster. Edu Nancy, that's P E N N Foster Edu Nancy and learn more. There is an answer this July 4th,
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come celebrate at America's Block Party hosted by America 250. America's Block Party is a can't miss 4th of July concert happening at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. Experience music, performances from major artists, patriotic tributes and the kickoff to giving 4th, helping to make July 4th the largest day of giving in American history. It's more than just fireworks. Learn more about this landmark celebration@america250.org
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since he got out, bad things keep happening. Cape Fear, a new series is streaming June 5th on Apple TV. Why would I want to hurt you? Starring Academy Award winner Javier Bardem. Why? And Academy Award nominee Amy Adams. He is coming after my family Kate fear streaming June 5th on Apple TV. Crime Stories is so proud to be supported by Grand Canyon University, an affordable, private, nonprofit Christian university based in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona. GCU doesn't settle for the status quo, they shatter it. At gcu, academically rigorous, industry driven programs are built to move at the speed of relevance, with practical skills, career readiness and opportunity for every learner. And GCU believes education should not be a privilege, but an affordable path forward for all. In fact, they've kept tuition at the same rate on their traditional campus for the past 17 years and they're continuing that into the 2026-2027 academic year. Grounded in Christian faith, GCU works to empower the next generation to lead with integrity, serve with purpose and help transform their communities, building a future that matters. GCU is purpose Driven education. Take action. Find your purpose at GCU, private Christian, affordable nonprofit. Visit gcu.edu to learn more crime stories with Nancy Grace.
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I launched hundreds of agents and intel staff to Phoenix and Tucson just for this case, just to be on standby. They didn't want to just do the canvassing. And we said we'll take the DNA
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from our friends at fox. That's Sean Hannity's new podcast, Hang out with Sean Hannity. Another thing to Brian Fitzgibbons, Guys, Fitzgibbons is director of Operations, USPA Nationwide Security. He leads a team of expert investigators around the world. He leads them finding and extracting missing people. Specifically I'd like to point out often from Mexico, which may come into play here. He is a former Marine and an Iraqi War vet and I think that says it all. Brian Fitzgibbons, thank you for being with us tonight. Did you just hear Patel state I and I'm reading it verbatim. I launched hundreds of agents and intel staff to Phoenix and Tucson just for this case and it's just to do the canvassing. And we said, look, we'll take the DNA, we'll start canvassing. Brian a delay is a defendant's best friend. The canvassing needed to happen then immediately. And not just the two next door neighbors all around the neighborhood getting video that maybe has now been overridden, questioning people about the night before. Like, can you tell me what noises you heard a week ago in the middle of the night? Because I can't. If you ask me about last night, yes, I can tell you the dog started barking at precisely 4am but if you ask me a week from now, I'm not going to know that anymore. All those agents on standby to find a missing person, gone. All that evidence gone. Brian.
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And these issues, Nancy, with the DNA are the tip of the iceberg. Because here's the deal. This is where my mind went almost immediately. If that was the level of collaboration or the lack thereof, how much work was duplicated when the FBI did actually enter the scene five days later? Right. And what I mean by that is how much of this canvassing had already been done by Pima County? How much information was being shared between the agents from Pima county on the ground doing the investigation with the federal law enforcement agents? How much was done twice? How much time was wasted in those early days? And you're talking days five through 10, right when the FBI first entered the scene. So, you know, this statement from Patel is very concerning.
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You know, I want you to hear this because the faster you can get on the ground and start looking, the more likely you're going to solve the case. And at first, at the very beginning, this was treated as if Nancy Guthrie had just wandered off and must have fallen in a ditch. What a load of hot, stinking, steaming bs. Now listen to this, Fitzgibbons.
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It is a state matter. It's a state and local law enforcement matter. What we the FBI do is say, hey, we're here to help. What do you need? What can we do? And for four days we were kept out of the investigation.
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Four days. Four days from our friend Sean Hannity at Hang out with Sean Hannity, his podcast, Four Days. Brian, you can't get that back. As I always say, like when you got a missing child, every hour, 60 miles per hour at best, they're getting further and further and further away. In this case, same thing, Nancy Cuthbert getting further and further and further away while Nano's has his thumb up as
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you know what for Pima county to not have the agility to plan for bringing in these federal resources quickly on a high profile case like this, it just speaks to the political nature of the decision that Nano's made that this is a long standing beef with the FBI and that he, you know, Joe Scott Morgan said it best. Pride cometh before the fall. And this, this was a decision born out of pride that he wanted to be the one to solve this case.
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What a difference A doordash, an Uber, a delivery a Lyft can make. Do you remember in Brian Kohberger's prosecution after the murders of four beautiful university Idaho students, now I have to testify make murder case too. So yeah, cuz I'm a doordash driver. So yeah, you have to testify in which murder case?
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Murder case with college girls.
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Oh my door has been very suffering. Yeah, take that Coburger busted by the doordash delivery woman. To Joseph Scott Morgan. Joining us, professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit podcast Body Bags with Jo Scott Morgan. But for our purposes he is a death investigator with over 10,000 investigations under his belt. Joe Scott Morgan, do you remember in Coburger eyewitness doordash delivery person identifies Kohberger as being outside the murder scene, 1122 King Road at the time of the murders. 4 o' clock in the morning, really busted.
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And now in this you know what?
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I don't. Go ahead.
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No, I was going to say, I'm reflecting back right now. You could have knocked me over with a feather when we got that footage. Do you remember that? Because we didn't know that that existed. And all of a sudden, and all it takes, Nancy, is just one little turn of the screw, right? Something that we're not completely aware of. And then all of a sudden, boom, the narrative completely changes. Or at least the narrative is more clear. And I think. I think we might be headed down this road with Mrs. Guthrie. Nancy.
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What we're talking about is the driver that drove Nancy Guthrie home. Now, we've been told over and over and over that the feds and Nanos, for what good that is, has been looking at what Nancy had on. What she said was. But what about in the background? We have just learned that in the Celeste Rivas case, where D4VD, aka David Anthony Burke is now charged in her murder and her dismemberment of this then 13 year old little girl. Don't show me him. I've seen him enough. I don't care if I ever see him again. The Tesla. The Tesla. Every Tesla has 360 degree visual unless it's been destroyed in this case. See how valuable that is in the Celeste Rivas case? In this case, no one until a few days ago has been looking at, around. Around that Uber delivery, that Uber drive. So what, if anything, can we learn? Joe Scott Morgan.
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Well, certainly. Directionality, you know, what. What route was taken. And also, you know, I'm. You know, look, as an old investigator, I want to know as much as I possibly can about the driver. You know, that they have an awareness of her, maybe who she is, this sort of thing where they followed in any way, I think. And so any kind of players that might be involved in this peripheral. Look, we'll take anything, right? Will take absolutely anything relative to the data that can be sourced. Where did this individual go before. Okay, he picked up Mrs. Guthrie. Where did he go after he picked up Mrs. Guthrie? I want to know everything about it in granular detail. Nancy.
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Now, we know that the Uber driver picked Nancy up and took her to Annie Guthrie's home for dinner. From what we can tell, there was intense planning of the kidnap of Mrs. Guthrie. So what we're getting at is when he picked up Mrs. Guthrie to take her to Annie's, we have reason to believe the pert was already in the neighborhood, positioned, waiting. Straight out to Cheryl McCollum joining us, cold Case Investigative Research Institute. Founder. She is also a crime scene investigator and she is the star of a hit podcast, Zone 7. She's the author of a brand new book, Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer Solving the Cold Case of the Flint River Killer's Daughter. Amazing book, by the way. Cheryl McCollum, thank you for being with us. We have reason to believe that if you, you know, when you don't know a horse, Cheryl McCollum, you look at his track record, we already know that Ms. Guthrie's kidnapper was there on January 11th. He's caught on video and very likely there on previous occasions. You know, he was in that neighborhood and poised with his accomplice when Mrs. Guthrie was first picked up and taken to Annie Guthrie's. Many people believe he may have already gotten into her place before Mrs. Guthrie returned home that night.
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You know, Nancy, I want to go back to the car first. When I first get to a scene and I get out of my car, I take photographs up and down the street. The reason is I don't know what cars belong there and what don't. I don't know who parks on the street normally, who's in a driveway, et cetera. They can go back with that Tesla video and see if there's somebody parked on the side of the road. If there's somebody parked in a driveway that doesn't belong. This person we know cased out her home before. You already mentioned the 11th, we think, you know, again on the 20 something. And then on the 30th, this person tasted. They knew her, you know, Cummins and Goings. They knew what she looked like on this night. They, I believe, were laying in wait. I think they know exactly when she got home. And that's why you see him going back to the front door after all the lights are out and he thinks she's sound asleep.
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Cheryl. Cheryl. Cheryl. Guys joining me in addition to Jo, Scott Morgan, Cheryl McCollum is with us, the star of Zone 7 podcast. Cheryl, how many cases did you and I work together in inner city Atlanta and Fulton County? I mean, can we even count them? I can't.
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Thousands. Thousands?
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Yeah. You know, it's hard when I look back to count the numbers. 100, 150 brand new felonies a week times four. That's a month. Times 12, times 10 years plus. That's a lot of cases. So, Cheryl, is there anything new under the sun? Defendants do the same thing over and over and over. They can't help themselves. Like, think about it. Everybody listening right now. Do you brush Your teeth the same way at the same time every morning in the same order? Do you wash your clothes a certain way? Do you get somewhere in your car and go, oh my goodness, I don't remember getting here? I must have zoned out. People do the same things over and over and over. It's like it's muscle memory. So what I'm saying, Cheryl, we know this guy. The perp. One of them anyway. Because I believe there had to be at least two involved. We know this guy lay in wait before we know he case has seen more than once. So he was very high on preparation, getting there ahead of time. What would be any different this time? It's like every time a dog sits down, it circles three times. You know he was in that neighborhood. Which makes it very important to review the video from the Uber driver that picked up Mrs. Guthrie that night. And also Cheryl McCollum. A lot has been made about the the D. Guthrie and brother in law of Savannah Guthrie. Their car being impounded and why it took so long. How do I know it didn't have 360 nav? Just like a Tesla. Remember what we learned in the Alex Murdoch double murder trial and the murders of his wife Maggie and son Paul? His suv, it was a big honking, like a Wagoneer or something. Revealed so much data when he took off from the crime scene that night. Scratching off when he slowed down his vehicle, let the passenger window down electronically. Yes. The black box of his car showed that. Threw out Maggie's cell phone and then scratched off to hide out at his mother's house. Remember all that? So much we can learn. So, Cheryl. Yeah. So while their vehicle was in impound. How do I know they weren't looking at that?
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They should have been. They not only should be looking at any type of data that could come from the car, whether it's video or from the black box. Did that car move after 9 o'? Clock? They would know that. And that's why it's critical when you're ruling people in and ruling them out. Go through all of it in order to truly rule somebody out. The data from that phone, the data from the car is going to tell the story. That's not something they can manipulate. The Uber driver the same way if he were to put his phone on airplane mode. That black box in that car is still operational and still telling us whether it's rolling forward in park. The trunk opens, the passenger door opens. We will know all of it.
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Back to you, Jo. Scott Morgan. You and I and I believe Cheryl Ann Fitz were talking at the very, very beginning with Ms. Guthrie went missing about the importance, the critical nature of vehicles in this case and now it's coming true.
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Yeah, we absolutely were, because she's dependent, I think to a great degree upon people moving her about. And so our vehicles are so tied to what our identity is and how, how we move about and also where we are at any given time. So I think that this could be one of the keys that's going to unlock this. You know, we can talk about physical evidence all you want to, but the big piece to this is her movement, because that's essential. NANCY and one of the big questions we've always had how did she get into the house, out of the house, was she conveyed in any way what's being implied here? So all of the actors that at least the police have revealed to this point are going to play a role in this, trying to create this timeline. And hopefully NANCY and it's rather grim, but where is she? I think is is a big part to this as well. And that's a question that we all want to know, right? We want to know who the perp is, but we want to know where she is in her current status. NANCY.
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Crime Stories brought to you by Penn Foster. Sometimes things don't go as planned with school. Whether you're looking to go back and finish what you started or you're the parent of a teen who's falling behind in traditional school, having an alternative can make all the difference. Penn Foster High School is an accredited online diploma program built to be flexible with self paced horses so students can work at their own pace and move forward. Visit PennFoster. Edu Nancy that's P E N N Foster. Edu Nancy and learn more. There is an answer.
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since he got out, bad things keep happening. Cape Fear, a new series is streaming June 5th on Apple TV. Why would I want to hurt you? Starring Academy Award winner Javier Bardem and Academy Award nominee Amy Adams. He is coming after my family. Cape Fear, streaming June 5 on Apple TV. Crime Stories is so proud to be supported by Grand Canyon University. An affordable, private, non profit Christian university based in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona. GCU doesn't settle for the status quo, they shatter it at gcu. Academically rigorous, industry driven programs are built to move at the speed of relevance with practical skills, career readiness and opportunity for every learner. And GCU believes education should not be a privilege, but an affordable path forward for all. In fact, they've kept tuition at the same rate on their traditional campus for the past 17 years and they're continuing that into the 2026-2027 academic year. Grounded in Christian faith, GCU works to empower the next generation to lead with integrity, serve with purpose and help transform their communities, building a future that matters. GCU is purpose driven education. Take action. Find your purpose at gcu. Private Christian, affordable nonprofit. Visit gcu. Edu to learn more crime stories with Nancy Grace. Well, again, a track record. How many cases have been busted by vehicles? And all we need is one clue about the vehicle. I mean, think it through. Let's take a look, just for the fun of it, at Brian Kohberger's White Elantra, zipping around the neighborhood, caught on one cam after the next after the next. And it wasn't just Brian Coburger. Do I have to say Molly Tibbets, as you will recall, Cheryl McCollum, star of Zone 7. Cheryl McCollum, in the Molly Tibbets case, the pert was unknown to her. There was no connection, which made the case even more difficult to crack. It was like a needle in a haystack until video emerged of the killer's car going back and forth and back and forth. And then you see Molly Tibbets come into the frame and the person, the perp is talking to her, trying to get her in the car. She threatens to call 91 1. What was interesting about that vehicle, it had distinct markings along the side of it. And that is how the killer was caught. And we've seen it play out over and over and over again. In the case of the glam yoga teacher Caitlin Armstrong, her suv, let's take a look at that. Was spotted going round and around and around the murder scene just before a world class female dirt bike racer was murdered. Over what? A man? Because her boyfriend, Caitlin Armstrong's boyfriend had a hamburger with the victim. So what's her logical action? Kill her. That video cracked the case. So in this case, straight out to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us, Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security, leading a team of investigators around the world finding and extracting missing people. He's also a Former Marine and Iraqi war vet Brian this vehicle, I understand that new eyes are now looking at video, looking at video for parked cars, for people walking, not just on the night of the abduction, but before that because we know the kidnapper was there ahead of time. That is his MO modus operandi method of operation. So what could the Uber driver's car reveal? Depending on what kind of car it is?
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I think you and Joe Scott Morgan hit the nail on the head just earlier there that what's in the background in the periphery of that video. So on top of establishing that Mrs. Guthrie was coherent in a good state while she was in that ride, there might be other things that we can see. Was there a vehicle spotted on a front facing camera? Some of these Ubers have not only rear facing passenger cameras, but they could have front facing cameras as well, operating at the same time. And I'll add one piece here. There are still thousands of hours of video collected from both public and private sources that that review is ongoing and a very tedious effort. But what they're focusing on is trying to find a vehicle in the right space and right time that can lead to be further investigated.
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Legal eagles and forensic specialists all over the country are concerned that the hot and cold nature of the search for Nancy Guthrie is taking a toll and creating now a chilling turning point point in the search for Nancy Guthrie. There's been a lot of stops and starts straight out to Dave Mack, crime stories investigative reporter. Dave, in the last days, we were told that in the late night hours, a subject had been detained for questioning. Nothing ever came of it. When questioned about it, Nanos, the elected sheriff in Pima county, gave a very terse one word answer. Nope, that was it. No further elaboration about what is going on. It seems as if it's up and down, hot and cold. You think you have a lead, you wake up the next morning, it just vanishes like fog. It's exhausting to the investigators, to the detectives, much less to the family. What happened with Nanos? I'm not talking about his new drama with claims of perjury. We'll get to that. But the hot and cold nature of this case.
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C
Yeah, Nancy, this case is being followed by millions of people nationwide and around the world. And, you know, we all got the tip that there was activity south of Tucson, a neighborhood where we've been before, where a person was detained previously and now there is activity and possibly somebody detained again. That was news that exploded and we were on it. Our whole team was calling one another, trying to figure out what was going on. And yet, when it comes right down to it, Nanos doesn't even talk about it, other than when he's asked a question, was there someone detained last night? He doesn't explain anything. He doesn't explain why there was activity or if there even was. He only says, nope, just like that. And it's. I cannot imagine how bad it is for the family to be dismissed like that. Because, look, he can be dismissive to the media, but to the family, to not engage and say, this is what's going on, it didn't pop out of nowhere, Nancy. There had to have been a reason that we were all told a certain thing and went after it. And all we're getting from Nanos, Nope.
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To Brian Fitzgibbons joining us. He is the director of operations, USPA Nationwide Security. Fitzgibbons leads a team of investigators around the world looking and extracting missing people, including in Mexico, which is significant in the Nancy Guthrie case. There have been more recent ransom notes where Nancy Guthrie is described as having been in Mexico, having been seen. That said, Brian, in every case, there are stops and starts. In this case, it's been extremely peculiar and exhausting. Have you experienced that in your searches?
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D
Oh, certainly, Nancy. And on one case in particular that you've actually covered a couple of times that my team and I have been working on for close to four years now. Andy Wagner missing from Evansville, Indiana. We would go through periods where, you know, we'd have hundreds of calls on the tip line, emails, information, then something would pop, Right. And that you have to fight the natural inclination to become emotionally attached to that lead and to run your process and, you know, with the public specter of Mrs. Guthrie's case. That's incredibly difficult for these investigators, knowing the mountain of evidence that they have to process, the mountain of tips. And then one of these things seems to move forward, and then it falls off. That's very difficult to keep morale high.
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A
Well, another aspect to this, Brian Fitzgibbons, is we saw a series of people detained, questioned, and released. But in a regular investigation, that is to be expected. What do you want them to do? Not detain the person, not question them. So that goes with the territory. So you can't really blame the sheriff's department for that. They're doing what they need to do.
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D
I think what's different here is it speaks to limited capabilities. The people detained and released seemingly have no connection to Mrs. Guthrie. And it exposes that maybe some of this cellular analysis and data analysis that had been done wasn't so great, right, that they're capturing a vehicle that was through there that has zero connection to the case and that they were actually further off than the public believes that they were.
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To Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, a renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction, author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock and Bravo and find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com. Dr. Bethany, the hot and cold nature of this investigation has worn down investigators, worn down the family, worn down the public. And the way that Nano's is treating it is highly unusual.
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I
You know, Nancy, to work with a sheriff who gives out a lot of information. When he's at the beginning of the case, he's in his glory days, so to speak. There's a lot of, of narcissistic gratification. All the reporters want to talk to him. He's. He's a celebrity of sorts. And then as the case begins to grow cold, his only response is nope. He becomes depriving and withholding with information. That's what I call a toxic relationship, right? When the other person feels good, they give you a lot of information. When they feel bad, they become withholding and depriving. So I think the public has a toxic relationship with, with Nanos. So let's just hold that in mind as a frame for my next comments, which are that it's a little bit like compassion fatigue if you have somebody in your life who says, oh, I'm about to die. I'm going to kill myself. And you put all your resources and efforts towards helping them. And they say, nah, I'm okay. And then a week later they're like, I'm in crisis. I'm going to kill myself. You put all your efforts and resources towards helping them. A week later, Nah, I'm okay. It creates a feedback loop between you and the person where you start to disbelieve them and you start to hold back your own internal resources so that you're not exploited. Now, that's not, you know, apple to apples comparison with the Nancy Guthrie case. But I will say with the investigators and the family, when they are given information that is sort of sensationalized, the media picks it up. It's given by Nanos in such a way that, oh, we got the culprit. You know, that kind of excitement. And then the lead grows cold. That creates dread, anxiety, feelings that you cannot trust the people who are in charge of the investigation and, you know, investigators, detectives, these people are not immune from human emotions like the rest of us. So if you're held. A carriage is held out, then it's taken away. Held out, taken away. They're going to feel very anxious, deprived, confused, not sure what to believe, and eventually withdraw from hope in order to protect themselves. And then that leaves Savannah Guthrie's family sort of out in the cold without supports.
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A
You know, I'm just thinking of the toll it has taken on the investigation. Also, we are learning more about one of the ransom notes. We're learning that it was very vividly written. Quote, I saw her alive with kidnappers in Mexico. A couple of new notes in the Nancy Guthrie case, both from the same person offering information on the kidnapper. But they reveal a location claiming they saw her in Mexico, in Sonora. The state of Sonora, a large Mexican state. It borders Arizona and also borders parts of New Mexico. So I notice that the Senator is not suggesting Nancy Guthrie is still alive, which also takes us to a critical turning point in this investigation. They say, in fact, quote, she is dead. Straight back out to Brian Fitzgibbons, USPA Nationwide Security. What will be the challenges of searching in the Sonora area and how will it be done if in fact this note is taken seriously?
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D
Well, I don't think that this note will be taken seriously for a number of reasons, but let's say it was right. Searching in Sonora is going to bring on a whole new set of challenges. First and foremost, there's going to have to be significant collaboration and cooperation between the US And Mexican governments to organize these searches. Secondly, there's going to be very limited buy in from the local populace to organize volunteer searches or to utilize resources from their local law enforcement. So, you know, if. If Mrs. Guthrie is indeed in Sonora and was taken across the border, this complicates things tremendously.
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A
Well, also in that area, Brian Fitzgibbons, isn't it true that there are huge swaths of desert, virtually impossible to search that type of terrain? Also, the corruption we see in the US Amongst police is nothing compared to what it is in Mexico. It's unlike anything we have experienced in the US you got a few bad apples. That's the truth. A few bad apples within the police are corrupt there. There's only a few people that are not corrupt within law enforcement. So you've got these huge swaths of desert, you've got extreme corruption within the law enforcement there, and you have the cartel influence on all of the citizens. They don't want to cooperate in any way with law enforcement. So where does that leave us?
- [55:35]
D
Yeah. And adding to that, Nancy, you know, beyond the corruption is who controls this land and then the land that would be searched and primarily in the first instance there would be an extensive grid search done by drone. Right? So do these people want to allow those drones to fly over their land? You know, are there illegal activities happening on that land? It's going to be, you know, complicated is not the right word. Nearly impossible if Mrs. Guthrie was taken across the border.
- [56:07]
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Programming Note On April 17th on Crime Stories we reported the death of 6 year old JoJo King and mistakenly described the charge for which his stepdad Brandon Hale was indicted. Hale was indicted for assault of a minor. As the on screen graphic in the program correctly stated. Brandon Hale has not been charged in JoJo's death and as of now remains innocent. If you know or think you know anything regarding the disappearance of Ms. Guthrie, please dial toll free 800, call FBI toll free 1-800-225-5324 There is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward for information leading to her whereabouts. A conviction or even arrest is not required. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight and keeping the search from Mrs. Guthrie alive. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye friend. Introducing the all new Mazda CX5 featuring more connection hey Google, where's the nearest Pilates class Safety that has your back. More discovery on the scenic routes, more passion in the details and more control in changing weather. The all new Mazda CX5 more to move every side of you. See it in five films at mazdausa.com fivesides Google is a trademark of Google LLC. Sequences shortened and simulated this July 4th
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come celebrate at America's Block Party hosted by America 250. America's Block Party is a can't miss 4th of July concert happening at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. Experience music, performances from major artists, patriotic tributes and the kickoff to giving 4th. Helping to make July 4th the largest day of giving in American history. It's more than just fireworks. Learn more about this landmark celebration@america250.org there's
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a break in every 26 seconds in the US most security systems alert you after a break in has already started. That's too late. SimpliSafe is changing that. Using advanced AI alerts, SimpliSafe's US based live agents identify threats on your property and help deter them. And here's what I love most about it. No long term contracts. And the setup is so easy. The SimpliSafe system was delivered to our door and in just 30 minutes our home is more secure with monitoring and deterrence plans starting around a dollar a day, everyone can enjoy the benefits of SimpliSafe. I want you to experience the same peace of mind we do. That's why I've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer an exclusive discount to our listeners. Right now you get 50% off your new system by visiting simplisafe.com Nancy I believe in it so much I've given it to two of the LOL's little old ladies back in my home church in Macon, Georgia. That's half off@simplisafe.com Nancy there really is no safe like SimpliSafe. This podcast is sponsored by Veracity. Everybody I know is talking about GLP1s and you all know I prefer natural options in my lifestyle. Always welcome to an all natural way to slim down, get energized and sharpen your focus. Verasity is revolutionizing health by tackling the root cause of so many issues, metabolism. With Verasity's drug free, clinically proven and doctor formulated solutions, you can support your body's needs to live your healthiest life. Verasity Founder and CEO Ali Egan is a certified Hormonal Health Coach. Her personal experience with metabolic issues inspired her to develop holistic solutions for achieving optimal health. Make the switch to GLP1's the Natural Way. Head to VeracityHealth Co and use code iHeart for up to 65% off your order. Once again, that's V E R A C I T Y Health Co for up to 65% off. And make sure you use the promo code iHeart so they know we sent you. This is an I heart Podcast. Guaranteed human.