NANCY GUTHRIE SEARCH: THE GOOD, BAD, & UGLY, HAUNTING NEW CLUE

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: "NANCY GUTHRIE SEARCH: THE GOOD, BAD, & UGLY, HAUNTING NEW CLUE"

Date: June 22, 2026
Host: Nancy Grace
Contributors: Dave Mack, Howard Bloom, Brian Fitzgibbons, Dr. Janie Lacey, Jo Scott Morgan, Savannah Guthrie

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Episode Overview

This episode delves deeply into the ongoing, high-profile investigation into the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. Nancy Grace, joined by investigative journalists, security experts, forensic analysts, and the Guthrie family, dissects the case’s timeline, emerging clues, critical missed opportunities, and controversial decisions by law enforcement. The discussion orbits the classification of evidence as "the good, the bad, and the ugly," a set of internal labels used by investigators, and explores a haunting new clue that pushes the search into the Mexican desert. Throughout, the episode highlights the persistence of the family and volunteers, as well as frustrations around investigative strategies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly: Classification of Evidence

• (05:02 – 07:32)
  Investigative reporter Dave Mack and Howard Bloom explain that ransom notes and other clues in the case have been internally categorized:
  • The Good: The two earliest ransom notes, which included specific, accurate details about Nancy Guthrie's abduction—such as an exact description of her pajamas—demonstrate "inside knowledge" and are considered credible.
  • The Bad: Notes that admitted to Nancy’s death but still demanded ransom, shifting to threats about the family never seeing her body.
  • The Ugly: Obvious scam notes from opportunists with no factual knowledge of the case, further traumatizing the family.

"The good notes are...just within days after the abduction...these had IP addresses, crypto wallets. That made sense." – Howard Bloom (07:32)

"The emails in the 'good' evidence includes an early one...asking for $4 million ransom stating Mrs. Guthrie was, quote, safe but scared, ending in 'or else.'" – Nancy Grace (06:21)

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2. Credibility of Ransom Notes & Investigative Missed Opportunity

• (08:00 – 16:45)
  • The early ransom notes described highly specific details (e.g., outfit, pajamas, bedroom layout) that only the abductors would know, solidifying their authenticity.
  • The FBI’s failure to promptly pay the requested $4 million ransom is widely critiqued. Instead, agents deposited a token amount—$152—hoping to “tickle the wire” and provoke a response from kidnappers for tracing. This decision is roundly criticized as a fatal delay that may have cost Nancy Guthrie her life.

"This was a huge lost opportunity." – Brian Fitzgibbons (16:22)

"Once you said, 'this is it,' you can't back down. So when you're dealing with people that would kidnap Nancy Guthrie...dangling $152. They probably all just laughed." – Nancy Grace (17:08)

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3. Crypto Ransom, Tracking, and Blockchain Analysis

• (24:00 – 26:15)
  • Bitcoin ransom could have been traceable via blockchain analysis, as explained by both Nancy Grace and Brian Fitzgibbons, referencing successful major cases recovered by DOJ and IRS.
  • The consensus is that not capitalizing on this traceable avenue early was a strategic blunder by law enforcement.

"Every transaction is recorded...you follow this transaction to the previous one or the next one—it’s called blockchain analysis." – Nancy Grace (24:53)

"Where the abductors would run into an issue is when they began moving that money...that's where federal authorities would have been able to track down the perpetrators." – Brian Fitzgibbons (25:07)

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4. Family Trauma & Impact of Investigative Decisions

• (18:17 – 19:12; 33:14 – 34:42)
  • Dr. Janie Lacey highlights the psychological toll on the family due to both the abduction and mistrust bred by law enforcement’s indecision.
  • Missed opportunities and erosion of trust in authorities further compound the family's anguish and may impact future willingness to cooperate.

"It strips away the last confidence that the family would believe the authorities had in their expertise...that trust, once it's broken, affects their willingness to cooperate on future cases and the faith in the system." – Dr. Janie Lacey (33:42)

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5. A Grim New Clue: The Search Shifts to the Mexican Desert

• (34:42 – 37:16; 41:40 – 46:48)
  • Anonymous tips direct search efforts to remote areas of the Sonoran desert, near Nogales, Mexico, with the help of volunteer group “Buscando Corazones Nogales.” Despite exhaustive efforts, including the unearthing of 25 other bodies, no sign of Nancy Guthrie is found.
  • There is skepticism over whether the tips were a genuine lead or merely leveraging the Guthrie search to uncover pre-existing mass burial sites tied to cartel activity.

"They have found 25 unmarked graves and not Nancy Guthrie. Yet they continue to search this area..." – Dave Mack (35:34)

"My immediate knee jerk reaction is that this tip was not connected to Mrs. Guthrie...they rode the wave of Mrs. Guthrie’s case to get that large gravesite uncovered." – Brian Fitzgibbons (36:19)

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6. Skepticism Toward Mass Burial Leads

• (41:40 – 44:43)
  • Forensic expert Jo Scott Morgan and Nancy Grace debate whether a large cartel-style mass grave is a plausible resting place for Nancy Guthrie, suggesting cartel actors would not risk the heat a high-profile victim would bring.

"If this is a mass deposition of bodies, this is probably related to drug cartels...they don't want the attention of a high-profile case like Nancy Guthrie." – Jo Scott Morgan (44:13)

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7. The “Porch Guy” and Theory of Accomplices

• (50:16 – 52:07)
  • The “Porch Guy,” captured on security footage, remains unidentified. The panelists, including Brian Fitzgibbons, conclude this individual likely did not act alone, citing body language and behaviors hinting at communication with an accomplice.
  • False reports circulating online about the “Porch Guy’s identity” frustrate the investigators and demonstrate the dangers of “clickbait” in sensitive investigations.

"I think we can be almost 100% certain this individual captured on the porch camera did not operate alone." – Brian Fitzgibbons (51:24)

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8. Frustration and Lessons for Law Enforcement

• (47:09 – 48:03)
  • Howard Bloom reflects on how a series of hesitant decisions, especially in the opening days, let the case “fall apart.” The gutting decision not to pay the credible ransom in full is flagged as a textbook error for future law enforcement seminars.

"It’s too late to pay the ransom money when it should have been paid...how the first opening days of a case are so important... Unfortunately, Nancy Guthrie and her family...will forever pay the price..." – Howard Bloom (47:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Savannah Guthrie’s heartfelt plea:
  “It is surreal. How is it possible...to have to make a video speaking to a kidnapper who took an 84-year-old woman in the dead of night in her pajamas, with no shoes, without her medicine...” (08:27)

• On investigative error:
  "Any chance of getting Nancy Guthrie back alive, the investigators believe, evaporated when the FBI tried to be too shrewd and tickled the wire rather than get paid the money and get Nancy back." – Howard Bloom (14:25)

• Dante’s Inferno invoked:
  "If Dante wrote about the ten circles of hell, [the scammers] deserve to be put in the lowest circle." – Howard Bloom (32:28)

• Savannah Guthrie, on closure:
  "We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us...This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and we will pay." (28:05)

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Timestamps for Critical Segments

• 04:03 – 06:21: Introduction to case and classification of evidence (good, bad, ugly).
• 08:00 – 09:58: Early ransom notes’ credibility and details on pajamas.
• 14:16 – 16:45: The decision to “tickle the wire” and failure to pay the ransom.
• 25:07 – 25:51: Explanation of blockchain analysis for ransom tracing.
• 33:14 – 34:42: Dr. Lacey on erosion of trust and family trauma.
• 34:55 – 35:52: Search operations in Mexico, discovery of unmarked graves.
• 41:40 – 44:43: Experts’ skepticism on cartel mass grave theory.
• 47:09 – 48:03: Howard Bloom’s assessment of law enforcement’s mistakes.
• 50:16 – 52:07: Scrutiny of “Porch Guy” video, theory of accomplices.

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Conclusion

The episode provides a thorough, emotionally-charged analysis of the Nancy Guthrie abduction, punctuated by insider perspectives, forensic expertise, and candid critique of law enforcement tactics. Nancy Grace and her panel emphasize how early hesitation and missteps might have doomed chances for a safe recovery, while also shedding light on the trauma wrought on the family. The search, now sprawling into the Mexican desert, highlights both the persistence of hope and the reality of cold investigative trails. Above all, the episode is a lesson in the urgency and precision required in handling critical, time-sensitive cases.

If you have any information on Nancy Guthrie’s disappearance, call: 800-225-5324 (toll free), or to remain anonymous, 520-882-7463. The reward exceeds $1.2 million for information leading to her whereabouts.

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Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

The search for Nancy Guthrie. Tonight, the good, the bad and the ugly. Emerging in the investigation is a haunting new clue emerges. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. In the last weeks. The FBI has confirmed that they obtained DNA from inside Nancy Guthrie's home.

[Dave Mack]

The possible suspect.

[Investigative Reporter]

There's possible new information.

[Dave Mack]

Pima county not jumping in. Nobody providing us with a lot of information on this.

[Investigative Reporter]

Nancy.

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Tonight a disturbing fact emerges from within the high profile investigation. Insiders now state the details behind the scenes classification of the quote, good, the

[Nancy Grace]

bad and the ugly evidence that has defined this case and the very, very serious regrets from within the investigation. What are we learning tonight? Straight out to crime stories, investigative reporter Dave Mack. The good, the bad, the ugly. I don't like the sound of that. When we were talking about the investigation into the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, what is that? The good, the bad, the ugly.

[Dave Mack]

Basically talking about the emails that were reaching out. The ransom notes, Nancy, that came in. The good, the bad, the ugly, the good. Howard Bloom, Pulitzer prize winning investigative journalist says that the good ones are the first ransom notes, Nancy, that were sent to local television stations in that market. He said those were the good ones. He believes those were the true ones. Remember how Savannah talked about believing a couple of the ransom notes were real? That's the good.

[Nancy Grace]

Hold on Let me focus on what

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you just said, Dave. Matt, you're stating that Blum has learned

[Nancy Grace]

that the good portions of the investigation, as he describes it, are nuggets of information, correctly describing, for instance, what Nancy

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Guthrie was wearing the night she was kidnapped.

[Nancy Grace]

The emails in the quote, good evidence includes an early one, an early on email asking for $4 million ransom stating

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that Mrs. Guthrie was, quote, safe but

[Nancy Grace]

scared, ending in two very disturbing words or else.

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Okay.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us right now, a very special guest who has had access to inside information in the case. It's Howard Bloom, renowned author, investigative journalist. He just recently published a two part investigation series for Air Mail Inside the Search for Nancy Guthrie. He is also author of multiple books, the most recent, when the Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. Howard, thank you for being with us tonight. First of all, you have classified the investigation evidence into three categories, the good, the bad, the ugly. I've read your reasoning and I do not disagree with it. Explain

[Howard Bloom]

the ransom notes. According to the investigators who've been involved in the case from the beginning are divided into three distinct types. They've called them colloquially the good, the bad and the ugly. The good notes are the two notes that came in early on in the case just within days after the abduction. And this was followed by another note. These had the investigators believe, IP addresses, crypto wallets. That made sense.

[Nancy Grace]

That is incredibly important that we are learning at this hour, late in the game that her pajamas, her outfit, specifically what she was wearing was accurately described. Now we know that she was carted out of the home wearing her pajamas. And we know that because Savannah Guthrie told us that that very important and critical fact.

[Savannah Guthrie]

It is surreal. It's how is it possible that we are having to make a video speaking to a kidnapper who took an 84 year old woman in the dead of night in her pajamas, with no shoes, without her medicine, this little person that

[Nancy Grace]

from our friends at today, Savannah's pain just below the surface. So we knew since Savannah stated that that she was taken out in her pajamas. But tonight, to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,

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[Nancy Grace]

Body Bags with Jo Scott Morgan. But for our purposes, forensic expert and death scene investigator with over 10,000 death scenes under his belt of all types, including the only possibilities, accidental, natural causes, suicide, unexplained and homicide. This is critical. So the world knew that she was taken out in her pajamas after Savannah told us that. But now we're learning this early on ransom note specifically described exactly what her pajamas look like. That's critical.

[Jo Scott Morgan]

Yes, of course it is. That gives you intimate inside knowledge that this individual would have had relative to, relative to how she was dressed that night. That puts you in the same space because you've got confirmatory comments from Savannah. Think about that and how valuable that is, Nancy. And so that's kind of real time information, isn't it, when you marry that up. And also you begin to think about, well, she's talking about how diminutive her mom is, how helpless she, she is, these sorts of things. And I find it interesting that the kidnappers might very well understand how critical it is to take care of her health, how, how important it is that she is in fact fragile and trying to reassure the family that she's okay for right now. So I would think, I would think that they would. This gives me an indication from an investigative standpoint, they've got inside information about her, Nancy that's what I've always thought about this, that they've been observing, they've been watching.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, I think this is critical, to put it mildly. Brian Fitzgibbon is joining us and he is the director of operations at USPA Nationwide Security. What does that mean? He leads a team of investigators that go around the world finding and extracting missing people, including in Mexico, which is relevant to tonight's program. BRIAN fitzgibbons, we're just learning they could identify and describe her pajamas. That's a big deal. And if we're learning that tonight, what else in that original ransom note was specific? That is a big screw up, to put it extremely mildly.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah, that's a major deal. And that, and that's something that early on we were speculating about that. What about these early communications? What did it include? Did it describe Mrs. Guthrie's bedroom? Did it describe how she was taking out? Did it describe what she was wearing? And what Howard Bloom's uncovered is that it may have had a number of those elements that describe the specifics that only the abductors would know. So that confirms to what extent possible the veracity of these early communications to the news outlets.

[Nancy Grace]

Back to Howard Bloom, renowned author, investigative journalist. He just dropped a two part investigative series for Air mail Inside the search for Nancy Guthrie. Howard Talk about a missed opportunity, to put it mildly.

[Howard Bloom]

The people who are running the investigation now are basically a special task force that involves FBI members, about 20 of them and approximately five members of the Tucson Detective Homicide Detective department. And looking back on things, they've come up with a unique way of expressing how the case went bad. They call it the Big Jake theory. What does that mean? Well, Big Jake was a 1971 John Wayne Western that was filmed about 400 miles north, part of it, at least, from Nancy Guthrie's residence. And in that movie, Big Jake's grandson is kidnapped. They immediately decide to pay the ransom money. But Big Jake, John Wayne, tough as nails John Wayne is going to go and he's going to get the ransom money back, and he's also going to get his grandson back. What the investigators decided to do at the beginning of this case, when they got the initial $4 million ransom demand, that seemed legitimate. That made sense to everyone involved. They decided to be a little either cautious or cute, depending upon who you were, whom you're speaking to. They didn't want to risk the money, which now seems rather foolish. It was their one chance to get Nancy back. Money deposited into a crypto wallet could have been traced. And then when the money was taken out, because money in the crypto wallet is not really any good to kidnappers unless they can spend it. As soon as that money leaves the wallet, the FBI would have pounced on them.

[Nancy Grace]

So instead of paying the ransom, they tried a decoy, in effect, Howard Bloom.

[Howard Bloom]

What they decided to do instead was what they call tickling the wire. That's the term the FBI agents use, and that means basically, they deposited a small amount into the wallet and see if that would make the kidnappers respond. How small was that amount? Oddly, it was $152. And the. The money just laid there dormant inside the wallet. They never touched it. And any chance of getting Nancy Guthrie back alive, the investigators believe, evaporated in that period when the FBI tried to be perhaps too shrewd and tickled the wire rather than get paid the money and get Nancy back.

[Nancy Grace]

So tonight we are learning the truth about that odd, that unusual amount of money that had been put in to the crypto wallet of the kidnapper who wrote the ransom note, who accurately and in great detail described Nancy Guthrie's pajamas the night she was kidnapped. Dave Mack. I recall distinctly when that happened.

[Investigative Reporter]

The $152 deposit was made on February 10th.

[Dave Mack]

That was the day that the FBI and went out there and tried to get some type of action.

[Investigative Reporter]

Okay?

[Dave Mack]

The ransom people were expecting this money in that bitcoin wallet, and that's the day money or bitcoin was transferred. The problem was that it wasn't enough money for anybody to do anything. It was a wasted opportunity. Nancy $152 is not going to get somebody to roll over on their compatriots in a kidnapping scheme where they want millions. That's what it amounted to, is a lost opportunity.

[Nancy Grace]

Brian Fitzgibbons joining us. This is your bread and butter. What do you think now that we're learning what really happened?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah, I think confirming that these initial messages were authentic and then to hear that $152 were sent and hey, I'll say, I'm not an expert in hostage negotiations. This, this doesn't seem like that move made any sense. And as Howard Bloom has identified, this was a huge loss opportunity.

[Nancy Grace]

I mean, hold on. Brian Fitzgibbons, Wait a minute. I think I need a shrink. Joining us, Dr. Janie Lacey, psychotherapist, CEO of Life Counseling, author of how to Heal From a Toxic Relationship, host of let's Talk about it with Janie Lacey. Dr. Lacey, thank you for being with us. Dr. Lacey, I don't know if in your practice you deal with hardened criminals, killers, dope lords. I do and did face to face every day for over a decade. You don't play with them, you do not negotiate with them. It doesn't work. For instance, if I was doing a plea negotiation and I said this is my best offer, 20 to serve. If they didn't take it, I had to go to trial, I could not back down. Once I said, this is it, you can't back down. So when you were dealing with people that would kidnap Nancy Guthrie, an 84 year old lady in the middle of the night, dragging her out without shoes, blood all over the front porch. Let's have a little reality check right now. Give me a shot of Nancy Guthrie's blood on the porch, which is another whole thing to Joe Scott when I get to it. There are reports now that the blood trail seemingly went in a different direction than what we were led to believe. That's a whole nother can of worms we'll get into. But Dr. Janie Lacey, you don't play with these people. Dangling $152. They probably all just laughed.

[Dr. Janie Lacey]

Well, you said it, Nancy. Like perpetrators who target seniors, it's not random. They're, they're calculated. They're, they're looking for someone they perceive as vulnerable and they mean business. They're intentional. They watch, they pick. I mean, they, they plan, they assess, and they actually were giving something. And at this potential opportunity that was missed. Right. We also know that predators operate on patterns. How they select, how they approach, where they go, who they go after. I mean, their patterns and behavior. And that's how we can have catch. That's how you catch these people and that's how we understand them. So when there's an opportunity that was missed, I also think about the family and the, the exponential trauma that occurred with this potential critical, critical mistake.

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[Nancy Grace]

home is more secure with monitoring and deterrence plans. Starting around a dollar a day, everyone

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can enjoy the benefits of SimpliSafe. I want you to experience the same peace of mind we do. That's why I've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer an exclusive discount to our listeners. Right now you get 50% off your new system by visiting simplisafe.com Nancy I believe in it so much I've given it to two of the LOL's little old ladies back in my home church in Macon, Georgia. That's half [e-mail] Nancy There really is no safe like SimpliSafe.

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

Florida Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Straight back to renowned author investigative report Howard Bloom, author of his latest book, when the Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. He just dropped a two part investigative series in air mail. You get it online. That's where I read it titled Inside the Search for Nancy Guthrie. Now, you outlined the good, Howard Bloom, and the good was we can catch them. This is a real ransom note. It's credible. There are facts, the pajamas and maybe more that lets us know this is real. They were asking at that time for $4 million. That was the good they were that close to catching because once you pay the money into crypto, you don't have them yet. But once they try to transfer it out of crypto into real money, that's when you catch them. So at that juncture, we know bitcoin can be traced. Contrary to what we've been fed by so many talking heads, Bitcoin can be traced. I mean, I'm thinking of the Silk Road investigation, I'm thinking of the Zhang investigation, where millions and millions of dollars were recovered. And those were big operations. Brian Fitzgibbons, USPA Nationwide Security it's very simple, actually. It's called a blockchain analysis. Why do they call it that? Because every transaction is recorded and it appears as if it's in a block. It's like a computer printout in a block. Then you follow this transaction to the previous transaction or to the next transaction and it becomes a chain of transactions. Is called block. Chain analysis. There have been many, many successful crypto investigations by the doj, by the irs. You don't want them up your tailpipe. And they've recovered millions of dollars. So at that juncture, before the $152 tickle and tease was done. There was actually a chance to track by blockchain analysis. Brian Fitzgibbons. It's been done before.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah, certainly you mentioned a number of the major cases and these cryptocurrency experts within federal law enforcement have a number of tools at their disposal. But beyond that, this is a public record. The blockchain is visible. Everything that happens on the blockchain is a matter of public record. Where the abductors would run into an issue is when they began moving that money to start accessing it, to turn it into actual currency outside of the blockchain, outside of Bitcoin to redeem that. And that's where federal authorities very likely would have been able to track down the perpetrators of this crime.

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[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Right.

[Lingokids Child 2]

If this is indeed a legit letter, the authorities are taking something serious from the abductors. Now as far as that's because that's why the family would sit down and make that right. That video yesterday, when the family is reaching out to say we're ready to talk, this letter suggests no talk.

[Lingokids Parent 2]

Right.

[Lingokids Child 2]

That was made clear right at the beginning.

[Nancy Grace]

That is from our friend Harvey Levin over at tmz. It seems like yesterday it happened. But it. Instead of advising the Guthrie's to pay the ransom or a substantial part of the ransom, a tickle and tease was done instead. Okay, then there is the bad Howard Bloom, as you say, insiders in the investigation refer to it. What's the bad?

[Howard Bloom]

Well, the point was this. This note began with a sort of apology. The writer said that they were sorry for Nancy's death. They hadn't planned to do that. And then as if on a dime, they turned tough. They said, we can make a deal. You pay this or else. Meaning or else they'll never see the body of Nancy Guthrie again. In response to this note, Savannah Guthrie made an Instagram post the next day and she pleaded for basically, we need closure, please. We want to be united with her mother. She didn't concede that her mother was dead, but that was the implication that I got from that posting by Nance, by Savannah Guthrie.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, Howard Bloom, what you're theorizing seems to be corroborated by one of Savannah's statements.

[Savannah Guthrie]

We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and we will pay.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to Jo Scott Morgan. Jo Scott, what Savannah says right there, remember when we first heard that, it sounded as if. Sounded as if she wanted to have a celebration of life, but we chose to interpret it, that she believed Ms. Guthrie was still alive and they would celebrate when she got home. But what Howard Bloom is stating about the good, the bad and the ugly from inside the investigation as it relates to the evidence, this seems to corroborate it.

[Jo Scott Morgan]

Yeah, it does. And the veil has been ripped in, in two. Right. At this point in time, you begin to see how actually ugly this is and disregard, I think, to a great degree. Let me tell you what the good, the bad and the ugly are here are specifically the really bad and the really ugly. When you go back to that first point where they're talking about tickling the wire, you know, guess who's going to receive the brunt of the anger relative to this? This is going to be Mrs. Guthrie. All right, so if you think. If you think the blood evidence at the scene at her home was something, you know, she's going to get the full on bad treatment here as she is in the custody of these people. And Lord only knows what has happened to her at this point in time. But apparently Savannah has taken this as confirmation that her mother is no longer with us. Now, you know, the trick is, I think at this point in time to try to determine who actually perpetrated this, who did it, and where Mrs. Gut3's remains are if we are to go down this road, and that's very, very important.

[Investigative Reporter]

Nancy, a couple of things have come up that are just shocking. You know, we had the first two email ransom demands that are considered to be credible. Well, there was a third. It arrived on February 6, and it came from the same IP address of the ransom demands that had mentioned the broken floodlight out on the back porch and what Nancy Guthrie was wearing when she went to bed the night she was kidnapped. So those two were considered credible. And this email came from the same IP address as the first two. But in this one, after the previous email claiming that Nancy Guthrie was safe but scared, this email on February 6th apologizes for accidentally killing Nancy Guthrie. The writer of this letter claims they killed her. And it's just shocking and disturbing. But while admitting to accidentally killing Nancy Guthrie, the writer of this email wants 4 million in Bitcoin to return the body to the family. Now, the very next day after this email was received, the next day, Savannah did a video for Instagram or on Instagram with her brother Cameron and sister Annie, where they said they wanted their mother back so they could celebrate. Remember? Well, that came the day after the email about accidentally killing her.

[Nancy Grace]

So, Howard, what now?

[Howard Bloom]

At this point, it's a desperation strategy for the investigators. It's pretty hard to judge if a tip is valid or not, but you really have to follow them up because you've got nothing else. They've played all their cards, and now what their investigators are basically doing at this point, as been explained to me, is they're waiting for the one tip to come in which will explain things. I mean, there's reward money offered for a tip. The Guthrie family is willing to pay, too. I think something will. Eventually, they'll find out someone will want to make money out of this. That's unfortunately just human nature. But to this point, there's a lot of desert out there, a lot of places to hide a body, and it might be a long time. It just depends on someone's greed.

[Nancy Grace]

So, Howard Bloom. That's the good, the bad, and now the ugly.

[Howard Bloom]

And then there are the extremely ugly notes, as the investigators call them. These are the notes that. How can you understand these people? They're trying to take advantage of the tortured moments that the Guthrie family is going through, and they're trying to exploit the ransom from them, and they have no idea of the facts. They have no idea where the body is. These people should be condemned. You know, if Dante wrote about the ten circles of hell, they deserve to be put in the lowest circle of hell. If there's anything lower than a kidnapper, someone who wants to take advantage of someone else's life and good fortune and ruin it, then there's people who have. Weren't even involved in the kidnapping, and they want to now exploit these circumstances.

[Nancy Grace]

Which leads us to the latest. A haunting and eerie clue emerging in the search for Nancy Guthrie. So, bottom line, Dr. Janie Lacey. The ugly that Bloom is referring to are people capitalizing on Nancy Guthrie's kidnap and trying to milk the family for money when they know nothing about her whereabouts.

[Dr. Janie Lacey]

You know, when we think about, like, investigators potentially making this. This critical error, it strips away the last confidence that the family would believe the authorities had in their expertise to navigate the safety, to bring their mom back home. So they lose hope. There's loss of control. You know, I'm thinking about sitting in the Family's shoes, the second guessing, right? Should they have pushed their asking these questions questions? Should we have followed this advice? I mean, could we have done something different? I mean, all of that would be so normal. We think about the erosion of trust, right? We think about the ugly. To me, that's the erosion of trust. Like families, they need to trust law enforcement completely. And that trust, once it's broken, it affects their, their willingness to cooperate on future cases and the faith in the system itself. It has a ripple effect, especially for like Savannah's high profile media figure and her, her family, this potential failure. I mean, they're grieving privately and we're dissecting it in such a public way of what, what went wrong?

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Janey, you're right. Dave Mack, that brings us to right now, tonight. What has led authorities to search the desert, the Mexican desert? What?

[Dave Mack]

There have been three very specific tips that have been called in to a volunteer group called Bascondo Corazones Nogales. And these three tips have directed searchers as to where they need to look. And these specific searches, Nancy, are talking about finding the remains, the unmarked grave of Nancy Guthrie. And these have been very specific. When I tell you specific, I mean like they have actually, these searchers, in searching for Nancy Guthrie, Nancy, they have found 25 unmarked graves and not Nancy Guthrie. Yet they continue to search this area of the desert in Sonora. And you see the volunteers, the pictures, These are all volunteers that are showing up. They're using drones to search areas and they're mostly on foot, shoulder to shoulder, searching in areas that came in through these tips.

[Nancy Grace]

It's very curious. An Anonymous tipster claiming Ms. Guthrie is buried around the border in a grave. Straight out to you, Brian Fitzgibbons. Your specialty is search and recovery, search and extraction. That's a pretty vague tip, but yet it's one of at least three tips we know about claiming the same thing.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah, and here's my immediate issue with this tip. There is a $1.2 million reward on the table for information that leads to locating Nancy Guthrie. Now, this organization seems to be pretty active in that area, and they did uncover the remains of 25 other individuals in a shallow grave. Right. So my immediate knee jerk reaction is that this was, this tip was not connected to Mrs. Guthrie, that this was in order to get a large presence out there to discover that large gravesite that was, you know, that they, they had put that tip in before and that no action had been taken, that they rode the wave of Mrs. Guthrie's case to get that large grave site uncovered.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace this large stretch of land known as Mariposa is northwest of Nogales. There are specific points provided by the tipster. Now that means something to me. Joe Scott Morgan if there are specific points, not just a broad swath of

[Jo Scott Morgan]

desert, to a certain degree it does. It shows a familiarity with this area. But you know how the problem is this grouping of these bodies has been in their news. So yeah, I mean people would have specific knowledge of it. And this is a mass grave or a mass deposition of bodies. This is what we refer to as a clandestine burial. Here's one of my problems, kind of dovetailing what Brian had said just a moment ago. Nancy, if this is a mass deposition of bodies, I'm thinking, particularly in this area, that this is this, this deposition is probably related to drug cartels. I find it interesting or compelling to think about Nancy Guthrie in the sense would a drug cartel actually stick their neck out For a few measly million bucks and risk getting their head chopped off over her. It just doesn't necessarily make sense. I agree with Brian. I think that they're trying to draw attention to this. And there's been other cases like this in Mexico. I think on body bags, we covered one earlier last year, Relative to the Jalisco bodies that were found, they had actually had a mass crematory, cremation site down there. So this is nothing new under the sun Relative to mass depositions of bodies. I'm going to be curious to see where this goes and if they follow up on this lead and who was the source of it, you know, Joe Scott.

[Nancy Grace]

I just don't think. I don't see kidnappers that are ruthless enough to take Mrs. Guthrie to start with burying her body. I think her body would be completely destroyed, not just put in a shallow grave along with 25 others. I don't. I don't see that.

[Jo Scott Morgan]

I don't either.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, on the other hand, though, wait a minute. Think about the porch guy. He's a bumbling idiot. Maybe they would think, hey, we've already buried these other bodies here, and we've never been caught. Let's go there. What do you think?

[Jo Scott Morgan]

Well, the problem again comes back to, I think that the mass grave or the mass burials is related to drug cartels. If this guy goes out on his own, and he is even loosely affiliated with one of these groups of people down there that have this criminal enterprise, his life isn't going to be worth anything relative to them, because now he's drawing attention to them. And that's something that drug cartels don't want to do, okay? Particularly with somebody that's this high profile, Nancy.

[Nancy Grace]

But I want to look at this realistically. We know to you, Dave Mack, that the Buscando corazones is a volunteer group out of Mexico. They were the ones that did the searching. I heard nothing about cadaver dogs being called in, state of the art equipment being used. So let me see that picture again. I don't believe I saw cadaver dogs.

[Dave Mack]

I don't think you did.

[Nancy Grace]

How thorough was the search, Dave Mack? What do we know about the collective?

[Dave Mack]

What we know is that this is a group of volunteers, Nancy, that searches in these areas in Sonora. I didn't see. I looked for the dogs, okay? I was looking for that to see if there was anything. I never saw any dogs. And I was researching what they use for searching. And to be honest with you, Nancy, it's a group of people that volunteer their time to go into these areas and search. It sounds like they don't have any funding, they don't have any dogs, they don't have any volunteer groups offering up such as that.

[Nancy Grace]

Brian Fitzgibbons, look at the photo of the collective. God bless them. At least they're doing something. All they have are T shirts and sticks. I know that they have now found 25 plus bodies, so they get credit for that. But where are law enforcement? Where's law enforcement in this scenario?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah, this looks like a well organized search group that has, if you look them up, they have had quite a bit of success in the past locating missing individuals around Nogales. So this is a well established group that knows what they're doing to respond to these tips. And you know, they certainly, you can see in these photos, they were certainly accompanied by local law enforcement to provide both security and if they did, when, you know, when they did encounter the grave of those 25 individuals, I'm sure that scene was processed immediately.

[Nancy Grace]

The reality is that the search yielded nothing. To this point, I'd like to see law enforcement doing something. Nanos has gone radio silent. So to you, Howard Bloom joining us. Howard, what do you make of it at this point?

[Howard Bloom]

What is so sad about this entire case is basically everything has been followed up on. It's too late to pay the ransom money when it should have been paid. And now the cases can only be instructive to law enforcement seminars on how a case falls apart, how to take how the first opening days of a case are so important and they must be followed up intelligently and with alacrity. And this here, in this case, it was just a drag. There was just a reluctance to move decisively. And unfortunately, Nancy Guthrie and her family, I believe, will forever pay the price because of this indecisiveness of law enforcement.

[Nancy Grace]

Dave Mack, Crime Stories Investigative reporter When you and I were researching and calling everybody we know to call and getting information for tonight, I nearly did backflip when I saw a headline, Porch Guy, our moniker, by the way, Porch Guy, identity of Porch Guy revealed, something like that. That's entirely not true. It's clickbait. That's a lie.

[Dave Mack]

Yep, total lie. And Nancy, we've seen this happen a number of times since the Nancy Guthrie story began back in February. And seeing that over the weekend and watching it get pushed out there, it's really frustrating. And it goes to the heart of what is problematic about some reporting individuals who just throw out anything to get people to click on their website or their or their social media. It's very frustrating. But hey, one thing I want to add, Nancy, is the searches in Mexico with the volunteers, you know, they actually had a tip, one of the three tips that came in told the leader of the group that on June 9th they were near Nancy Guthrie's grave. That's what, that's a very specific tip that came in, yielded nothing, but it was there.

[Nancy Grace]

Wow. It makes you believe, although rarely, that the tipster does know something. That combined with the apology of sorts and one of the missives stating that Ms. Guthrie died accidentally, followed by Savannah Guthrie talking about celebrating, essentially acknowledging that maybe her mom had passed away, it all seemingly fits together. I don't know where Nanos is in this entire scenario. Basically nowhere. I guess he's back at the gym working out. So back to the banner, so to speak, that identity of porch guy revealed to Howard Bloom. Joining us tonight, author of when the Night Comes, A requiem for the Idaho student murders and a brand new investigative series on air mail inside the search for Nancy Guthrie. What about the porch guy?

[Howard Bloom]

We've seen the one person who was involved at the door camera. All I can really hypothesize is he had to have someone else working with him because he seemed like a bit of a bumbler.

[Nancy Grace]

I agree with you that he was working with someone. Brian fitzgibbons, all of us on the panel tonight have reviewed the porch guy video over and over and over. Let's see it while Fitzgibbons is talking. And I noticed that a viewer observed that the clicking of the bite light could very well have been communicating to the accomplice. And we also see at one juncture the porch guy kind of looks over his shoulder as if he's looking at someone. Also at CrimeCon, an observer sleuth hypothesized, I think she may have been right, that when he is looking in through the pain, he's looking to see if the accomplice, remember, the back door was propped open, has come to the front yet. What do you make of that? BRIAN fitzgibbons?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah, the true crime sleuth community experts on your panel and other shows have dissected everything possible about this and more from this video. His clothing, his body language, the equipment he's carrying. But I think one thing, you know, you know, a number of that, a lot of those things are up for debate. But one thing is, is not, in my opinion, that this person did not act alone. Okay. That, you know, whether there was a light in the distance that he was communicating with or not. I think we can be almost 100% certain that this individual captured on the porch camera did not operate alone.

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[Nancy Grace]

anything regarding Mrs. Guthrie's disappearance, please dial toll free 800-225-5324. There is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward for information leading to her whereabouts. If you wish to remain anonymous. 520-882-7463. We remember an American hero, Sgt. Joseph Apodaca, Taos County Sheriff's New Mexico. Killed in the line of duty at the young age of 36. Leaving behind his wife turned widow, Renee and his beautiful daughters, Esperanza, Natalia and Maribel. American hero, Sergeant Joseph Apodaca. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.

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