Nick Reiner Pleads Not Guilty to Parents Murders, After High Profile Lawyer Walks Away

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: Nick Reiner Pleads Not Guilty to Parents Murders, After High Profile Lawyer Walks Away

Date: May 17, 2026
Podcast: iHeartPodcasts & CrimeOnline
Host: Nancy Grace

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, Nancy Grace delves into the latest shocking developments following the double homicide of Hollywood director Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle Singer Reiner. Their son, Nick Reiner, stands accused of their brutal murders, pleading not guilty in his initial court appearance. The discussion centers around the crime itself, Nick's troubled history, legal strategies, family dynamics, conspiracy theories, and what may be coming next as the legal process unfolds.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Case Background & Timeline

[02:52–07:53]

• Nick Reiner’s Not Guilty Plea & Court Demeanor:
  • Nick was described as “visibly disturbed” and silent at his arraignment, where his lawyer entered a not guilty plea.
  • The murders occurred in the Reiners’ Brentwood home; both victims had their throats slashed and sustained multiple stab wounds.
• Discovery of the Bodies:
  • Their daughter, Romy, who lived across the street, discovered the bodies Sunday at around 3:30pm.
  • Rob and Michelle were dead in their bed “for some hours.”
• Prior Family Conflict:
  • The night before, Nick reportedly fought with his parents at a Christmas party at Conan O’Brien’s house.

2. Nick Reiner’s Mental Health and Drug Use

[04:00–06:23, 11:07–14:25]

• Diagnosis and Recent Changes:
  • Nick was reportedly diagnosed with schizophrenia and was recently in a high-end psychiatric facility.
  • Medication changes worsened his condition, and sources described his behavior as erratic and dangerous.
• Substance Abuse:
  • Nick himself admitted in a past interview to “getting totally spun out on uppers,” “coke and something else,” and destroying property during episodes.
• Expert Opinions:
  • Legal analyst Philip Dubay speculates about a “drug-induced euphoria” followed by a crash, but Nancy Grace challenges the idea that voluntary drug use is a legal defense.
  • Psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall emphasizes Nick’s resources for psychiatric care and instead examines possible personality factors—specifically entitlement.

3. Legal Proceedings and Defense Strategies

[07:53–15:50, 23:36–25:40, 29:16–30:43]

• Arraignment and Legal Posturing:
  • High-profile lawyer Alan Jackson enters the case and quickly moves to delay arraignment until January 7th.
  • Nick’s initial plea and early court appearance are marked by silence and apparent suicide watch, indicated by his blue smock and shackles.
• Special Circumstances and Charges:
  • The DA filed two counts of first-degree murder with special circumstances for multiple victims and use of a deadly weapon (knife), making the death penalty a possibility.
  • Jackson appears to be considering a mental health defense.
• Debate Over Premeditation:
  • Nancy Grace and Philip Dubay argue over whether first-degree murder in California requires premeditation or only malice aforethought.

4. Behavioral Evidence and Public Perception

[08:28–15:50, 16:18–21:24]

• Surveillance Footage:
  • Post-murder, Nick was spotted on video at a gas station calmly buying a drink, changed into clean clothes.
  • Panelists argue about whether his post-crime composure indicates sanity, relief after a domestic crime, or dissociation.
• Insider Perspective:
  • PR expert Rob Shuter recalls Nick as deeply entitled, “a spoiled brat,” lacking talent or work ethic, obsessed with becoming famous without doing the work.
  • Psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall agrees, noting entitlement and building resentment as possible motives.

5. Crime Scene Details and Evidence

[31:55–34:48, 48:09–55:07]

• Forensic Findings:
  • The murder weapon (knife) remains missing; investigators are using cell phone and digital analysis to track Nick’s movements in hopes of locating it.
• Autopsy and Time of Death:
  • Both victims suffered multiple stab wounds and slash injuries to the neck; death ruled as sharp force injuries.
  • Medical examiner Dr. Kendall Crowns explains rigor mortis findings, mechanism of lethal neck wounds, and the absence of reported defensive wounds (possibly because the victims were attacked while asleep).

6. Nick’s Arrest and Jail Status

[30:43–32:25, 42:08–45:08]

• Arrest:
  • Nick was apprehended calmly, offering no resistance, in the USC campus area.
  • He had switched to clean clothes but was arrested in the same outfit as seen on gas station surveillance.
• Jail Status:
  • Booked into Twin Towers Correctional Facility’s medical unit, reportedly on suicide watch.
  • Unclear if the “medical hold” is for psychiatric reasons or other standard procedures.

7. Conspiracy Theories and Public Discourse

[56:30–61:57]

• Social Media Speculation:
  • Unfounded rumors (Epstein list, espionage, political motives) are dismissed by the panel as wild conjecture unsupported by facts.
  • Nancy Grace expresses frustration at defense lawyer Philip Dubay’s attempts to use social media absence or conspiracy rhetoric as a basis for mental defect arguments.
• Panel agrees: True focus is on the factual, forensic, and behavioral evidence, not internet conspiracies.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Nick’s Behavior Post-Crime:
  • "He packed clean clothes. He has on a matching outfit... He goes and stands in line... pays for his food, his drink. Wow, he looks just like you, Dubay, going into a gas station. You don't look crazy to me."
    —Nancy Grace [08:28]
• On Mental Illness as Defense:
  • “Voluntary use of drugs or alcohol. Not a defense. Bethany, I would like you to look at your screen. We’re going to look at this gas station video again.”
    —Nancy Grace [13:44]
• PR Insider on Entitlement:
  • “When you were with him, did he seem psychotic or just a spoiled brat?”
    —Nancy Grace [16:34]
  • “A spoiled brat. He felt entitled.”
    —Rob Shuter [16:43]
• Dr. Bethany Marshall on Motivation:
  • “Entitlement is the expectation of reward without achievement... You just want to be magically helicoptered [to success].”
    —Dr. Bethany Marshall [21:24]
• On Charges:
  • “He is also charged with felony murder. That’s an alternative count, which means you don’t have intent. The state doesn’t have to prove you had intent. But a death occurred very simply during the commission of a felony.”
    —Nancy Grace [41:28]
• Conspiracies Shot Down:
  • “Sorry, Hunter, your zany conspiracy theory doesn’t hold water. Rob Reiner was not on the Epstein list, for Pete’s sake.”
    —Nancy Grace [57:08]
• On Conspiracy-driven Defenses:
  • "If he truly thinks that he's going to be beamed up by the Starship Enterprise and he's got all kinds of wild imaginings..."
    —Philip Dubay [61:40]
  • "Nobody said that. You said that."
    —Nancy Grace [61:54]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Section | Details | |---------------|-----------------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:52 – 07:53 | Case Background & Discovery | Introduction to the crime, timeline, and context | | 04:00 – 06:23 | Mental Health & Drug Use | Account of Nick’s psychiatric/rehab history, drug use | | 08:28 – 15:50 | Surveillance Video & Expert Analysis | Decoding Nick’s post-crime behavior, legal/psychological debate | | 16:18 – 21:24 | PR Insider’s Account | Rob Shuter on Nick’s entitled personality | | 23:36 – 25:40 | Legal Motions & Court Appearance | Alan Jackson’s entrance, delay strategy, suicide watch | | 29:16 – 30:43 | Legal Analysis of Delays | Reason for postponing court action | | 31:55 – 34:48 | Evidence & Digital Tracking | Tracking Nick’s movements, missing weapon discussion | | 42:08 – 45:08 | Jail Status & Psychological Treatment | Medical holds, psychiatric evaluation, childhood behaviors | | 48:09 – 55:07 | Forensics & Medical Examiner | Autopsy findings, mechanism of death, time of death | | 56:30 – 61:57 | Conspiracies & Social Media Speculations | Epstein list, political motives, internet theories dismissed |

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Panel & Experts

• Nancy Grace: Former prosecutor, host, driving legal analysis
• Kayla Brantley: DailyMail investigative reporter
• Philip Dubay: Veteran trial lawyer, defense counsel
• Dr. Bethany Marshall: Renowned psychoanalyst
• Rob Shuter: Celebrity publicist, “Naughty but Nice” podcast host
• Scott Eicher: Digital forensics expert, former FBI
• Dr. Kendall Crowns: Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County
• Sydney Sumner: Crime Stories investigative reporter

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Concluding Insights

• Legal Focus: The prosecution is pursuing first-degree murder with special circumstances, enabling life without parole or the death penalty, while the defense appears to be angling toward a mental health or insanity plea.
• Behavioral Portrait: Both professional and personal accounts paint Nick Reiner as entitled and directionless, with long-standing emotional and behavioral problems, compounded by psychiatric and substance abuse issues.
• Procedural Status: The arraignment is postponed to allow more time for the defense, with Nick on suicide watch and his access to resources under scrutiny.
• Evidence Challenges: The murder weapon remains missing, but digital forensics are expected to play a key role in the investigation.
• Media Environment: Wild social media theories are circulating but are not substantiated; the case remains focused on forensic and factual evidence.

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This episode offers a dynamic, occasionally combative, and highly detailed look at a headline-grabbing Hollywood tragedy, masterfully unraveling the personal and legal complexities as the justice process begins.

Transcript

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

[Courtroom Narrator]

Nick Reiner pleads not guilty in the murders of his parents, Rob and Michelle Reiner. What does it mean? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. An eerie looking Nick Reiner in court pleading not guilty to the brutal murder of his parents, Rob and Michelle. The disgraced Hollywood son Nick Reiner looking visibly disturbed when he pled not guilty to charges stemming from the murders of his film director dad and Rob Reiner's wife, Michelle Singer Reiner. In court, Reiner sat in an odd silence behind a glass wall while his lawyer entered the not guilty plea on his behalf. What do we know about the morning his parents, Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer Reiner were found dead, their throats slashed, in their own LA home?

[Crime Reporter]

Breaking details in the shocking Brentwood double homicide involving Hollywood director Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle Singer Reiner. According to tmz, their son Nick Reiner, who's now charged with their murders, had been diagnosed with schizophrenia in the weeks leading up to the killings. His behavior reportedly became erratic and dangerous after a change in medication. Two sources with direct knowledge say Nick was under psychiatric care and had recently been treated at a Los Angeles high end rehab facility specializing in mental illness and substance abuse. That facility cost about $70,000 a month and it's known for catering to wealthy families. TMZ reports that about a month before the murders, doctors adjusted Nick's medication in an effort to stabilize him, but instead his condition worsened. One source said, quote, nick was out of his head. Substance abuse reportedly compounded his schizophrenia. Legal experts believe this case is headed toward a not guilty by reason of insanity plea. Meanwhile, the Los Angeles County Medical examiner has released the Reiners bodies to their family. Funeral arrangements will be announced later. The autopsy confirmed both victims died from multiple sharp force injuries.

[Nancy Grace]

Rob Reiner and his wife were murdered. Their daughter came across the street.

[Kayla Brantley]

She lives right across the road.

[Nancy Grace]

And then she finds their bodies. They had multiple stab wounds.

[Nick Reiner]

I got totally spun out on uppers. I think it was coke and something else. And I was up for days on end and I started punching out different things in my guest house.

[Scott Eicher]

Like a frame.

[Public Investing Platform Announcer]

Like a.

[CarMax Advertiser]

Like what?

[Public Investing Platform Announcer]

Like a stuff.

[Nick Reiner]

I think I started with the TV and then I went over to the lamp and then progressive. I just. Everything in the guest house got wrecked.

[District Attorney]

Our office will be filing charges against Nick Reiner, who is accused of killing his parents, actor director Rob Reiner and photographer producer Michelle Singer Reiner. These charges will be two counts of four first degree murder with a special circumstance of multiple murders. He also faces a special allegation that he personally used a dangerous and deadly weapon, that being a knife.

[Nancy Grace]

You are hearing the local district attorney and earlier you were hearing Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner's son, Nick Reiner, describing how he totally got spun out on uppers. I think I was on coke and something else. I was up for days on end and started punching out different things and my guest house. Let me just do a quick little correction right there. Caleb Brantley joining us, reporter@large, dailymail.com it wasn't his guest house. He was living on the largesse of his parents, Rob and Michelle Reiner. And this wasn't the first time he totally destroyed the guest house. I mean, the entitlement of this guy. Is it true from what very different from what we first learned that Rob and Michelle Singer Reiner were found, their throats slit in their own bed. Is that true?

[Kayla Brantley]

Kayla Brantley that's exactly right, Nancy. It was around Sunday at 3:30pm when their bodies were discovered. And what we're now learning is that Rob and Michelle Reiner had been dead in their bed for some hours. So of course, now the police are putting together a timeline of when this could have happened. We know Saturday night there was a fight with Nick and his parents at a party at Conan O' Brien's house, a Christmas party. And by Sunday at 3.30pm they were found dead.

[Nancy Grace]

Guys, in the last hours, video has emerged of the son, Nick Reiner. Now this is after he allegedly murders both his parents in their sleep, which I'm going to circle back to Philip Dube about. I mean, talk about stalking and predating upon someone attacking your parents in the dark in their sleep when they can't fight back. After that. And after he checks into a local hotel and cleans up, he's spotted here. Let's take a look at Nick Reiner. This is the latest happening. Now there he is.

[Philip Dubay]

Wow.

[Nancy Grace]

He packed clean clothes. He has on a matching outfit. Check it out. He's got on shoes without blood, new pants without blood. He's got a backpack, a jacket against the cold, a hat. Let's keep watching this because I see him walk in, fully aware of what's happening, going straight to the drink area. He gets a drink. Then he goes and stands in line. Yeah. Looks totally sane, doesn't he? This is from CBS News, by the way, Philip Dube joining us, high profile lawyer out of LA county, former public defender there. It's going to really be hard for his new high profile lawyer, Alan Jackson, who represented Karen Reed, to argue mental defect because he looks completely sane right there. He knew to pack. Could you take him down please? He knew to pack. New clothes, fresh clothes. What happened to the murder weapon? Has it been hidden? Did he know enough to hide or discard the murder weapon so it will never be found? What knife was that? What utensil did he use to stab his parents and slit their throats? He knows how to go into a gas station. He goes straight to what he wants, he gets it, closes the fridge behind him, comes up to the line and stands there patiently waiting to pay, pays for his food, his drink. Wow, he looks just like you, Dubay, going into a gas station. You don't look crazy to me.

[Philip Dubay]

If you kill during the throes of psychosis or if you kill while under the influence of some type of meth induced situation, like a form of meth induced psychosis, it cannot form the basis of a legal defense. The jury can factor it in and deciding whether or not he had the intent to kill, but you're not going to walk away from it. And I think what the evidence will probably show is that at some point he was going through some type of a drug induced euphoria, likely from methamphetamine and that it dissipated and he went to what we call that meth or cocaine crash. And that's why you're seeing him so calm afterwards.

[Nancy Grace]

Uh huh, uh huh. Did you interview Nick Reiner and learn all this or are you just guessing?

[Sidney Sumner]

You're just projecting.

[Nancy Grace]

He was on meth, he was on coke, now he's in a euphoric downer and he was in psychosis at the time he murdered his parents. You're just kind of extrapolating, is that right?

[Philip Dubay]

I am telling you he is a statistic. He is the mirror image of that homeless drug addicted population out there that goes through that meth or coke high. It dissipates and then they crash. And during that crash stage. Stage they are cool.

[Nancy Grace]

You're saying the same thing again. Or am I caught in a demonic echo chamber? Are you making this all up? Did anybody tell you this? Are you co counsel with a high profile lawyer and you know this by some interview with a different or are you just spinning it out? That's a yes.

[Philip Dubay]

I am enriching you as to what the likelihood is. That's really what's going.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, so where did you get your information? If you could reveal that, I'll tell

[Philip Dubay]

you what tipped me off, that that's what happened. When he was arrested. They booked him into the Twin Towers Correctional Facility rather than the Men's County Jail. So what? That and that is the largest psych hospital in the United States within a jail system. It tells me that at the point of Just stop, please.

[Nancy Grace]

You must cut his mic because for Pete's sake, Paris Hilton was booked in the, in the Twin Towers. That means nothing to me. The fact that he's in the Twins Tower, you are spinning out like Rumpelstiltskin. You're taking mangy looking wet hay and you're turning it into gold. But guess what? That doesn't work with a veteran trial lawyer. That would be me. The lies stop right here. You know nothing about his mental state. You know nothing about whether he was on speed, whether he's on meth, whether he's on coke, much less a euphoria, euphoric downer after. Bottom line, you know what, why am I asking a JD like myself mental health questions when I've got Dr. Bethany Marshall with me, renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of this jurisdiction along with Dube, author of Deal Breakers. You can see her on Peacock now and find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com. Dr. Bethany, Philip Dubay is talking about statistics. And all trial lawyers know if they've ever tried a case and they're not just a talking head, that statistics are overwhelmingly disallowed as evidence at court. So that's not happening now. It doesn't matter if Reiner, as in the son Nick Reiner, had been on meth. It doesn't matter if he's on coke. It doesn't matter what he's on. Voluntary use of drugs or alcohol. Not a defense. Bethany, I would like you to look at your screen. We're going to look at this gas station video again. A lot of you may be wondering why is this important? Because Alan Jackson has swooped in the Karen Reed lawyer. This is from CBS News, by the way. And I already see, as Dube said, rightfully, that they're going to try a mental defense argument. Okay? But look at this guy. This is a couple of hours after he allegedly slits the throats of both of his parents. You know why? Because he just couldn't take living in that multi millionaire home, that lifestyle he was given on a silver platter on top of a Christmas tree.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

You know, Nancy, I see somebody walking casually around a mini mart Getting a drink. He doesn't show signs of drug abuse here. He's not pacing, he's not agitated. He looks quite calm to me. So instead of putting this in the drug addiction category, where somebody's on meth and there's overkill, which I speculated to yesterday, what I'm going to say now is that often with domestic homicide, when somebody successfully kills a family member, there's an extraordinary relief phase afterwards. So they will be quite calm, they will go shopping. I mean, like Casey Anthony dance on the stripper pole. They will go out and enjoy their lives. Now, in terms of drug abuse, I've been looking at all the interviews last night, Nancy, and one of the things I noticed about this guy, Rob Reiner's son, is he does a lot of what we call tongue thrusting, pushing his tongue out as he's talking, which means that he has tardive dyskinesia, which is a sign of antipsychotic medication, meaning this guy was in the lap of luxury of psychiatric care. He had the best psychiatrist, the best hospitalizations, everything available to him. I see this as much more psychological than something that is related to drug addiction.

[Nancy Grace]

I want to go to Rob Shuter. Joining us, star of Naughty but Nice podcast, author of a brand new book, It Started with a Whisper, which is a big hit on Amazon. Now you can find him@robshooter substack.com Publicist to the stars. You know, Rob Sheeter, I'm gonna put you under the microscope right now and do a lightning round. Isn't it true, you know Nick Reiner, Isn't that true?

[Rob Shuter]

I've met Nick Reiner, yes.

[Nancy Grace]

So then, simple answer. Yes. And you have actually sat down and had a meal with him? Yes.

[Rob Shuter]

No coffee with him and a. Maybe a croissant.

[Nancy Grace]

That's not a yes, no, but whatever. When you were with him, did he seem psychotic or just a spoiled brat?

[Rob Shuter]

A spoiled brat. He felt entitled.

[Nancy Grace]

Explain.

[Rob Shuter]

He, he turned up late for a meeting that he, he arranged. I didn't arrange it. So he wanted to meet with me in la. And he turned up late, kind of late. Late enough that you notice not five, ten minutes late. Late. That bothered me. When he turned up, he was rude to the staff, which is always a tell when you turn up and you're rude to people. I remember at one point they got his order wrong and he blew off the handle really shockingly, shockingly quick. And then came back down and sat and talked. He was arrogant, he was entitled. And he saw this sense of himself that was Way bigger than the reality. He believed that he was a major player in Hollywood the same way that he believed he trashed his guest house. No, you are not a major player in Hollywood. Your parents are, your dad is. And that ain't your guest house, it's your dad's.

[Nancy Grace]

Rob, why did he want to meet with you? What did he want?

[Rob Shuter]

He was struggling. He wanted to be a really successful screenwriter. He wanted to be famous. I think he desperately wanted to step out of his mom and dad and his grandpa's shadow. He was a lost guy, and he had access to resources that the rest of us people struggling in the entertainment business would absolutely, absolutely desire. He had phone numbers, he had email, he had contacts. But unfortunately here he didn't have a lot of talent. And so he had trouble squaring that. And he was looking for somebody to come along and turn him into the next amazing screenwriter, which obviously I couldn't do, and nobody else could do any he could do, and he didn't have the gifts to do that.

[Nancy Grace]

Rob Shooter, you stated that he contacted you to meet with him because he wanted to become a successful screenwriter. What is your experience, Shooter, as a screenwriter?

[Rob Shuter]

My experience is zero. I have never written a screenplay.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, so what you're good at, what your forte is, is you are a PR guru. People from all around the world come to you for PR help, public relations help, whether they're in a crisis or they just want to become famous for whatever reason. You've seen it all, from Britney to Sean Combs, so many more. So he didn't come to you for help to become a screenwriter. He came to you because he wanted to be famous?

[Public Investing Platform Announcer]

Yeah.

[Rob Shuter]

There was no craft there. He didn't come to me to learn the art of becoming successful. He had no interest in learning his craft. He had no interest in taking a screenwriting class, in learning how to do this. He wanted to go straight from 0 to 100. And this is not that uncommon. It very rarely happens. But everybody wants to be famous. Everybody wants to be successful. Are you willing to put in the work? The hours, the hours, the years, the years. I tell everybody that works with me for a little bit of success, it's going to take five to 10 years of hard work. He wasn't willing to do that. He wanted to go straight from a 0 to 100.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, how did he want you to make him famous? What were you supposed to do?

[Rob Shuter]

He had no idea how I'd do it. He thought I'd done it for other people. I explained to him very Very carefully, that I had worked with a lot of, lot of celebrities, but I hadn't turned anybody into a star who didn't do the work. And that everybody I worked with, from a Jennifer Lopez to a Jon Bon Jovi, works their tail off. There's, there's this thing, this, this perception out there that you can become famous overnight without doing the work, and it's just not true. You have to do the work. He showed almost zero interest in that. I asked him if he, if he had a screenplay. Show me your play. Let me, let me read it. Let me see. He hadn't even put together a sentence. He sent me nothing.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, does that change your opinion, Dr. Bethany Marshall, what you are learning from Rob Shuter now we're getting to the very latest. We know where he's being held right now. We know what his lawyer is up to. We have seen the very latest videos and evidence. We have evidence from the hotel where he snuck into and literally blacked out the windows with sheets, hiding out where he cleaned up, leaving behind blood in the shower, his parents, blood. Before I get to that, this is a real insight for me, Dr. Bethany Marshall. I usually don't get to have this when I'm looking at a target. This changes a lot for me, this insight into Nick Reiner's mind. Bethany.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Yes, it changes a lot for me, too. I was fascinated by what Rob was saying because what I'm hearing is true entitlement. Entitlement is the expectation of reward without achievement. You want to be at the top of Mount Everest, but you don't want to work out, hike, get all the equipment, try to get yourself to the top. You just want to be magically helicoptered there. And so people who have severe addictions, like obviously Nick did, they have to work really hard to surmount those addictions, right? They have to go to rehab. They have to surround themselves with a community that will hold them responsible. But if you're drug addicted and entitled, you are not going to put in the work to gain sobriety. Now, if you're living in a guest house with very rich, very talented, renowned parents, what you're going to see is a sack of gold on the other side of the driveway and it's yours. It doesn't belong to them anymore. Now it's yours. You should have it yourself. Even though maybe you haven't done anything to earn it, right? Maybe you haven't gone to Conan o' Brien's Christmas party and chatted people up and been kind and, you know, taken pictures, shake hands or anything like that. You just think that it belongs to you. And so what I hear is somebody who thinks he should be famous, he doesn't have the talent, he doesn't want to put in the work. He is building up this boiling resentment towards his parents who did put in the work and his grandfather who did put in the work and envy that green eyed monster, envy. When you want something somebody else has and you don't feel you can get it for yourself, it causes the wish to destroy the object of your envy.

[Sydney Sumner]

And I think that's what we're seeing

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

right now is that he just, he destroyed his parents, even though they gave him every benefit, every opportunity. He thought he could just skate in and, you know, have lunch with our naughty but nice, you know, person here and all of a sudden he would be famous. It's the offending pattern. I see it everywhere now as we're talking about it tonight, as we go

[Nancy Grace]

to air tonight, we are learning the district attorney there in LA has filed formal charges, including you legal eagles, if you caught this special circumstances, which means the death penalty is on the table.

[District Attorney]

These charges carry a maximum sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole or the death penalty. No decision at this point has been made with respect to the death penalty we have requested and currently Nick Reiner is being held without bail. One of these special allegations is that the murder was committed with a deadly weapon or a knife. As to where and how the weapon will be was located or will be located, that will actually be evidence we'll

[Nancy Grace]

present in court the murders of Rob Reiner and wife Michelle Singer. Reiner stabbed dead, multiple stab wounds, injuries

[Amazon Health AI Announcer]

to the neck categorized as slash wounds,

[Sidney Sumner]

both their throats slit.

[Nancy Grace]

Arterial bleed is like a water sprinkler.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

I can guarantee you that this is a blood.

[Nancy Grace]

And in the last hours, Nick Reiner, suspect number one in the murders of Rob Reiner and wife Michelle Singer. Reiner appears in court looking grim, wearing shackles and a suicide smock as he makes his very first court appearance in the murder cases. Sydney Sumner. What happened?

[Court Reporter]

What happened, Nancy? Essentially nothing. Alan Jackson tells the judge he's already spoken with the prosecution and they agree to postpone Reiner's arraignment until the new year. So they'll be back in court on January 7. The judge asks Reiner if he agrees to waive his right to a speedy arraignment. And Reiner meekly responds, yes, your honor. The only thing we really learned here is that Reiner is likely being held on suicide watch, evidenced by that barely visible blue smock.

[Nancy Grace]

So Sydney Sumner, the spoiled brat turned accused double killer, said very little in court. He appeared behind glass. He was shackled. He did not enter a plea. Why?

[Court Reporter]

Mr. Jackson answered that for his client, telling the judge it's too early to enter a plea as he had just a few minutes with his client before this initial appearance. It seems the court is already on holiday mode as both prosecutors and the judge quickly agreed to postpone until January 7th.

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[Sidney Sumner]

Service opens doors, and at American Military University, it can open doors for the whole family. If you have a loved one who served in the military, you may qualify for reduced tuition. AMU offers flexible online programs designed to fit your schedule so you can keep moving forward wherever life takes you. Learn more at amuapus.edu Military Open doors to the future for you and your family with the help of American Military University.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

[Courtroom Narrator]

Nick Reiner looked thin, gaunt, with dark circles under his eyes, sitting in the courtroom in an enclosed area where he could not reach anyone else. His head shaved, he had on a brown prison suit and he sat looking glum. I guess so. It's quite a turn of events. No longer living in daddy's multimillion dollar pool house, eating whatever he wanted out of their Sub zero fridge whenever he wanted. What do we know about the evening and the events leading up to Ding

[Nancy Grace]

Riner's arraignment, originally scheduled for this week. But once high profile lawyer Alan Jackson enters the scene, Jackson waives the right to a speedy arraignment and it has been delayed. Remember a defense attorney's best friend. Delay, delay, delay. And so it has started.

[Court Reporter]

Well, I, I don't think we can be too hard on Jackson yet. I'm not sure this delay can be categorized as unnecessary. We saw Jackson going to the courthouse less than 45 minutes before this arraignment, giving him just a few minutes to meet with Reiner and the prosecutors. I can't blame him for pushing back a plea to get a chance to actually sit down with Reiner and get a better understanding of his story.

[Nancy Grace]

The arrest of Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer, Reiner's son goes down in a public location and eyewitnesses state that Nick Reiner, the defendant in this case, seemingly was acting like a, quote, ordinary guy.

[Police Officer]

He was arrested in a public area in the Exposition park area near the University of Southern California campus. He was approached by the officers and he was arrested without incident. There were no indications that, there was no indication that he was going to resist or anything like that. He didn't flee or anything like that. He was taken into custody without issue and, and he was transported to our police airports facility.

[Nancy Grace]

Kayla Brantley Joining us, investigative reporter, dailymail.com Kayla, what happened? Tell me about how the arrest went down.

[Kayla Brantley]

Yeah, as you can see from those pictures and as was described by the officer, Nick Reiner appeared very calm, collected. He didn't put up a fight. And you can see in these pictures right here, you know, he put his arms behind his back. He was not arrest, he was not resisting arrest. And it appears that he was in those same clothes that he was seen in that earlier surveillance footage that you showed. So he didn't have a change of clothes and he was taken away very easily.

[Nancy Grace]

Tell me about what was found at the hotel.

[Kayla Brantley]

It was a horrific scene. Now what we've learned is that there was blood everywhere. He's obviously changed his clothes. There was no blood on him as you saw there. And what they haven't found yet or what they haven't disclosed that they found yet is a murder weapon. So obviously everyone's assuming that there was a knife that was used for those lacerations to his parents throat. But we haven't learned yet if that has been found or if it was found in the hotel or at the crime scene.

[Nancy Grace]

You're right. Kayla Brantley, DailyMail.com Take a listen to the LA district attorney.

[District Attorney]

One of these special allegations is that the murder was committed with a deadly weapon or a knife. As to where and how the weapon will be was located or will be located, that will actually be evidence we'll present in court.

[Nancy Grace]

You see the local district attorney seemingly correcting himself, pausing there about the weapon. Well, it will be located. It was located. That tells me that the weapon has been discarded. Much like in the Bryan Coburger case. We found the knife hilt with the defendant's DNA on it underneath one of the murder victims, but we never found the actual knife. Interesting. Joining me Scott Eicher, digital forensics expert, founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team, FBI, 22 years and former homicide detective in Norfolk. Scott, thank you for being with us. I want to find that weapon and after much analysis, I think the best way to find the weapon is to track Nick Reiner's cell phone. How do we do it?

[Scott Eicher]

Well, there are several different ways to do that. You've got all the different applications on the cell phone and the cellular connections that the cell phone makes all the time when it's on. So you can track the towers, you can get more detailed information from distance from the towers and you might be able to get some information from the applications like Google or Facebook, Instagram, all those provide some locational information so you can track him historically from the house to the hotel and maybe or to where he was arrested, which was about 12, 13 miles away. So there's a good amount of distance between those locations. So they got their work cut out to try to figure it out. But obviously they've got this video. They've gotten to a point, they're putting a timeline together and they're just going to chronologically go through each little step to see where they could figure out where he might have put that knife.

[Nancy Grace]

That gas station video from our friends at cbs. Okay, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and go back to Philip Dubay. He is actually a veteran trial lawyer. He's a defense attorney and he has been with the LA County Public Defender's Office. What does that mean? They're on trial all the time. Just like assistant district attorneys. There are thousands of cases to be handled and you've got to go to trial or else you get fired. Very simply put, Philip Dubay, this guy may have been in the movie Melo. He's been around screenwriters, he's been around stars, he's been around plenty of whodunit movies. But do you really think that he thought too? He's only alleged to have committed these crimes, but would he have thought so deeply to think, oh, let me turn my phone off before I get rid of the murder weapon. Let me put it on airplane mode. I don't think so. Remember one of our last suspects that put the phone on airplane mode? Oh, yes, that would be Barry Morphew, whose phone went on airplane, airplane mode around the time his wife was killed or went missing. So Philip Dubay, do you really think he thought that deeply when he got rid of the weapon?

[Philip Dubay]

No, and I'll tell you why. I can tell by the charges. The prosecution is not alleging that this was a planned premeditated murder. The only reason why he's rising to the level of it being a special circumstance is because there were multiple victims. They're not even alleging that he did it for financial gain, which certainly is the classic motive, particularly in Hollywood. So what you really have here is somebody who is out of his mind again, likely due to psychosis, drugs, or maybe even an untreated personality disorder, who flew off the handle in a fit of rage for whatever reason and fled while still in that either drug induced psychosis or some type of mental health crisis. Does it excuse the behavior of, okay,

[Nancy Grace]

you know what, Sidney Sumner, that was all my fault because you never on the stand anyway. Ask a witness a Question that you don't already know the answer to. So I asked him Dubay, about the weapon where it would have been discarded and was the cell phone turned on or off at the time the weapon was discarded. And he goes back to his pretend drug psychosis theory. Sidney Sumner. Let's get some facts. Joining me, Sidney Sumner, along with Kayla Brantley, Daily Mail. Sidney Sumner, crime stories investigative reporter. What exactly are the charges against Nick Reiner?

[Sidney Sumner]

We just heard the district attorney speaking.

[Nancy Grace]

What are the charges?

[Sydney Sumner]

Well, Nick Reiner is charged with two counts of murder with the special circumstances of multiple murders because he killed two people at the same time. And that special circumstance of using a deadly weapon.

[Nancy Grace]

Sydney, aren't those murder charges first degree murder? Isn't that true?

[Sydney Sumner]

You're right, Nancy, they are first degree murder.

[Nancy Grace]

And in this jurisdiction of California, murder one is murder with malice aforethought. That's what murder one is in California, Sydney.

[Sydney Sumner]

Exactly. So there is some assumption that this

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

was premeditated in some degree.

[Nancy Grace]

So when we hear Philip Dubay state that this is not. These are not charges that include intent. That's diametrically opposed to what the charges actually are. The charge is murder one. Again, out on a limb, Dube, under the law, there is no specific time required to prove malice or forethought or, as we call it, premeditation. Premeditation to commit an act can be formed in the blink of an eye, the twinkling of the moment. Isn't that true, Dube?

[Philip Dubay]

Yes, it is.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, so when you say the charges do not include intent, that's actually not correct. This is a murder one charge, isn't it?

[Philip Dubay]

Yes. No, I didn't say that. It was not intentional. What I'm saying is it wasn't planned in premeditation.

[Nancy Grace]

Yes, you did. Didn't he say that? Control room. Didn't he just say that? They're saying. Yes, you did just say that.

[Philip Dubay]

Well, then I retract that.

[Nancy Grace]

We've got it on tape. Do I have to play it back for you? For Pete's sake, Like the gas station video?

[Philip Dubay]

It is absolutely an intentional act, but it was not planned and premeditated. In other words, it was spur of the moment. There's a difference.

[Nancy Grace]

Murder one is premeditated murder. I feel like I'm screaming at a lamppost. Yes, it is. Murder one is with malice aforethought.

[Philip Dubay]

Malice aforethought. Standing alone does not necessarily mean premeditated. It's a separate element. Telling you.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, what do you think malice aforethought is because I'm looking at Black's Law Dictionary right now. Go ahead. I can't wait to hear this. What do you think malice aforethought is?

[Philip Dubay]

Malice aforethought is intentional killing. That's the bottom line.

[Rob Shuter]

Either.

[Sidney Sumner]

Yes, that's right.

[Philip Dubay]

It is. However.

[Nancy Grace]

Yes, that's right. It's intentional killing. You form intent. You have a plan.

[Philip Dubay]

Not necessarily. Absolutely not. There's a difference.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

You know what?

[Nancy Grace]

I'm wasting very valuable time arguing with you about what? You just admitted these charges. And correct me if I'm wrong. Kayla Brantley joining us from dailymail.com on this from the very, very beginning. Kayla Brantley, He, Nick Griner is charged with premeditated malice murder. That is what first degree murder is. He is also charged with felony murder. That's an alternative count, which means you don't have intent. The state doesn't have to prove you had intent. But a death occurred very simply during the commission of a felony. In this case, that felony would clearly be aggravated assault with a knife. You don't have to have intent to prove felony murder, just that a death occurred during the commission of a felony. And a sentence for felony murder can be life without parole or death penalty. Again, tell me the charges. Kayla Brantley,

[Kayla Brantley]

it's two first degree murder charges. There's the special circumstance and the special weapon charge right there. And like you said, either life in prison without the possibility of parole or the death penalty.

[District Attorney]

Nick Reiner will be then brought to court. He is going through medical clearance, something that everybody who goes, who gets arrested and gets held in a Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department jail goes through. Once he is medically cleared, he will be brought to court to be arraigned on these charges. At that point, he will enter a plea of guilty or not guilty.

[Nancy Grace]

Kila brantley joining us dailymail.com why was he a no show in court?

[Kayla Brantley]

According to Reiner's lawyer, Alan Jackson, he wasn't medically cleared to appear in court. Now, we don't know exactly what that means, but as you heard there, that's something that's very standard. Everyone needs to get medically cleared. Now this could be a psycho psych evaluation. It could be a regular medical evaluation. We're still finding that out.

[Nancy Grace]

It could be him refusing to put his clothes on. It could be him clinging to his bunk and refusing to go. We don't know what it is, Dube. What? That is the reason that he was not, quote, medically cleared. Don't make something up, okay? He missed Court? Why?

[Philip Dubay]

I'm telling you, when he got booked, they brought him to the Twin Towers Correctional Facility and they put him in the medical unit. My hunches, and it's just based on my years of doing this stuff, that when they arrested him, they felt he was a danger to himself or to others still. So they put him under. What's my guess is they put him under what's called a 5150 status, where it's basically an involuntary hold for a minimum of 72 hours unless and until he is cleared by a doctor, and that includes going to court. If he is still psychotic, he cannot be brought to court. So my hunch is that they needed to medicate him to therapeutic levels, at least in the short term, so he could be brought to court for the arraignment. If they need to extend the hold, they can do it, I believe, up to two weeks. Anything beyond that, they have to go into court, the mental health court, for an order extending the involuntary hold pending arraignment.

[Nancy Grace]

Tequila. Brantley, have you heard anything at all about him being in psychosis? Suicide watch? What do you know, if anything about that?

[Kayla Brantley]

Not yet. We haven't heard anything about his current status, but what we have found out from family, friends of the Reiners, people who knew him his entire life, is that from an early age, he appeared to be a difficult child, threw tantrums. One of the sources is quoted as saying he had anger in his eyes and at some point his father, Rob Reiner, would have to restrain him during these tantrums and that those tantrums really progressed into adulthood.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Bethany Marshall, just because Nick Reiner has been booked into Twin Towers, that

[Sidney Sumner]

means nothing to me.

[Nancy Grace]

Other people, other celebrities have been there. Cosby, Bill Cosby, O.J. simpson, Al Capone, Ted Bundy, Birdman of Alcatraz, Bernie Madoff, who worked the world's largest Ponzi scheme. He certainly wasn't crazy. He was brilliant. Evil, but brilliant. And many, many others. How Dubay is extrapolating because he went to Twin Towers must mean he's on a psychiatric hold. That's. This doesn't make sense. What do you think is happening? Dr. Bethany? Another tantrum.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Another tantrum. Out of an abundance of caution, they're going to make sure he doesn't want to harm himself or other people, but he's not a risk there. What I'm going to say is when you diagnose people, you can diagnose them on five axes. Axis one is mental disorders. Access two is personality disorders. They're treating him like he has a mental disorder. But they this Nancy, this is personality driven. He had tantrums from the time he was very little. According to one report when he was 11 years old, he had such a huge tantrum that his father had to put him in a big bear hug and hold him to help him regulate down into a normal state. Could it be that Nick, Bethany is

[Nancy Grace]

Bethany, can I tell you something please, before you say one more word before we hear any more made up theories from Philip Dube. And he wins a lot of cases on arguments just like this. By the way, Paris Hilton, who has since become quite the hero on various fronts and now is a married mom. Paris Hilton was put in the Twin Towers after violating probation from a dui. She was put there because she was quote, claustrophobic. All right, so all of Dubai spinning out his theories. That's not supported by the facts. We know tonight he just happened to be booked into Twin Towers. It's in that jurisdiction. So that really means nothing to me probatively at this juncture. But I do know he's hired a very high profile lawyer, Alan Jackson.

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[Nancy Grace]

The the bailiff has indicated that the sheriff's department will take it on a

[District Attorney]

day by day by day basis and so hopefully he'll be clear tomorrow.

[Nancy Grace]

From our friends at FOX News Digital, Sydney Sumner. Who is paying for him?

[Sydney Sumner]

That is the million dollar question. I don't think his siblings are footing the bill and I don't know what kind of funds he has access to that don't belong to his parents. So it's very unclear where Alan Jackson is going to get his paycheck from.

[Nancy Grace]

Two special guests joining us now, Dr. Kendall Crowns, renowned chief medical examiner of Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU and he's the star of a hit new podcast Mayhem in the Morgue. But don't be fooled by his joviality on his podcast. He has conducted thousands and thousands of autopsies. Dr. KendallKrowns, thank you for being with us. Dr. Crowns. There is a big difference in stab wounds and the slicing of his parents throats. What would the stab wounds to the body, not the slicing of the throats indicate to you?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

So stab wound is a wound that is actually long, longer than it or the wound itself is shorter than it is deep. So as the knife enters into the skin it leaves a wound that is very small but the actual wound course is very deep. The wounds they're describing on the rhinors is a slashing wound or incised wound that is longer than it is deep. So it's kind of a shallow wound that hits multiple organs or multiple vessels, but doesn't go very deep into the tissues.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, let me understand something, Dr. Kendall crowns. Even though the slicing motion you just made doesn't have to be deep, in fact it can be quite shallow. That would likely be the mortal wound. And why.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

So the vessels or the structures in your neck, carotid artery, jugular vein, your trachea, they're all very close to the surface, like millimeters or less than a quarter inch below your skin. You have these vital structures. You hit the carotid artery, it's going to start spurting blood out and it's going to be lots of blood coming out in a very short period of time. You'll be dead in minutes. If you just hit the jugular vein, it'll start oozing heavily and again you'll be dead in minutes. You cut the trachea, you're going to have trouble breathing. And when you cut the trachea, you'll also cut blood vessels, you'll get blood into your trachea. So when you're dying, you're sucking in blood and you're basically drowning in your own blood as you're bleeding to death.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Kendall crowns. We know that when their daughter Romy arrived and called authorities, the fire department arrived and they stated that the Reiners were already in full rigor. That tells me an approximate time of death. Could you explain?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

So rigor mortis is the stiffening of the joints that occurs after you die. And what happens is your muscles continue to use these, the things they use for metabolism even after you die. And when they run out of these substances, they go into full contraction. And this can start occurring in about a half hour to an hour after death and gets to a maximum about 12 hours. So it starts in the small muscles first and then goes to the larger muscles throughout your body. So if you see full rigor, it could be about 12 hours, but it can be affected by activity, drug use, how much blood loss you've had, a number of other factors, how warm it is in the house. So using it as an exact time frame for the post mortem interval is difficult.

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stop scratching my downtown. Yeah, but I'm not itching to go downtown and tell a receptionist I'm here to talk about my downtown. Some things you'd rather type than say out loud.

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[Sidney Sumner]

Service opens doors. And at American Military University, it can open doors for the whole family. If you have a loved one who served in the military, you may qualify for reduced tuition. AMU offers flexible online programs designed to fit your schedule so you can keep moving forward wherever life takes you. Learn more at AMU Apus Edu Military Open doors to the future for you and your family and with the help of American Military University

[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

[Courtroom Narrator]

Nick Reiner Keeping a Serious Face Is Nick Reiner keeping a serious face? Looking downward as others spoke in court, the lawyer did all the talking, only briefly. Speaking to the public defender before the hearing, he was asked if he wanted to waive his right to a speedy trial. Judge responded with a V. Wait. Reiner responded very clearly. Yes. What does that mean?

[Nancy Grace]

That means the defense wants this whole

[Courtroom Narrator]

thing to blow over. So by the time it goes to trial, everybody's forgotten the shot of Rob and Michelle Reiner's murders.

[Nancy Grace]

When someone is in rigor, the rigor breaks and the deceased's limbs become limber again.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Yes. After the 12 hour interval. After the 12 hour interval of it setting up, you'll stay in full rigor for about 10 to 12 hours. And after that it starts to subside and disappears over another 12 hours. Unless someone moves it and breaks the rigor manually and then it goes away completely. So you have about a 24 hour window of full rigor before it disappears.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, is it 12 hours or 24 hours?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

So 12 hours to set up, 10 to 12 hours after it sets up, where it stays in place. And then after that it begins to subside over another 12 hours.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. Dr. Kendall crowns, what type of defensive wounds would you have expected to be found on Michelle and Rob Reiner's bodies? We've heard nothing about defensive wounds such as blocking with the hands, the arms, even curling up in a fetal position and getting defensive wounds on the knees or the legs. I've heard nothing about that. I've only heard about stabs, we believe to the torso.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

So since they were in bed and may have been asleep, they could have not even seen this coming and not had an opportunity to react. Since there's two individuals, at least one individual probably was awoken by the other individual being being killed and may have had a chance to defend themselves. But usually defensive wounds is what you see is the individual trying to grab the knife and trying not to be stabbed. And you'll see slices or incised wounds across the fingers, across the palm of the hand. And then you'll see also incised wounds or stab wounds of the forearms as they're trying to block the knife themselves. And again, like you said, you may pull up your legs even, and you'll see stab wounds or incis wounds on the legs and feet.

[District Attorney]

Do we all just forget that, that

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Rob Reiner was on this list?

[Scott Eicher]

Or what, now he's dead.

[Sidney Sumner]

What?

[Nancy Grace]

The zany conspiracy theories have already started. Sydney Suler, Crime stories, investigative reporter. I don't recall Rob Reiner's name being on the Epstein list. By the way, that's from Hunter Montross on Tik Tok Sid.

[Sydney Sumner]

Well, the list that that user is standing in front of is not real. That is a fake list that has been circulating on social media. And Rob Reiner's name is on that fake list and circled, but there's no actual evidence supporting that he had any ties to Jeffrey Epstein.

[Nancy Grace]

So sorry, Hunter, your Zani conspiracy theory doesn't hold water. Rob Reiner was not on the Epstein list, for Pete's sake. But there's no lack of theories. Maybe Philip Dubay can use these as the defense.

[Studio A8 TikTok Commentator]

Listen, Rob had been working on a series called the Spy and the Asset. The series was, was going to be about Putin and Donald Trump. Their upbringings, different ways they intersected, and in Rob's words, what happens to democracy as a result of this convergence? That relationship of Trump and Putin being explored and extrapolated and navigated is going to bring a whole lot of corruption up to the surface.

[Nancy Grace]

Right, that. From Studio A8 on TikTok to Scott Eicher joining us. He was a founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis survey team. Scott, I think I'd rather rely not on zany conspiracy theories. I will leave that to our veteran trial lawyer, Philip Dubay. Scott, I'd rather deal with hard facts. How difficult is it going to be for me to trace Nick Reiner's cell phone, where he went that night, any credit card or ATM use, and what was it for? I need to track not only his phone, but where there was a delay even in the Alex Murdaugh case where Murdoch murdered his wife Maggie and son Paul as he left the scene. I got from his. Well, Prosecutor Waters got from his nav system where he slowed down and the nav system showed Scott Eicher him lowering the passenger side window electronically. That's where he threw out Maggie's cell phone. Then he let the window up, sped up and went and hid out at his mother's house, who had dementia and really could not say what time he got there. That said, that's what I'm looking for. You know, this guy didn't think deeply enough to turn his phone on airplane mode or turn it off when he discarded of the knife. So how am I going to find the knife?

[Scott Eicher]

It sure does look like a crime of passion in those instances. A lot of times the suspects do not turn off their phones. Don't think ahead like that. Once you get the identifying information about the suspect. Phone records, vehicle records, credit cards. It's really interesting how you can put a timeline together and kind of piece together all the things that happened before and after the crime.

[Nancy Grace]

Hey, Scott Eicher, you and I have both marveled at the Video montage put together by LE law enforcement in the Fotus Doulos case. They got him every which way but loose on video from ring doorbell cams to stoplight cam. This is after his wife Jennifer, the mother of his five children, was murdered. I'm thinking that this neighborhood is blanketed in ring doorbell, in stoplight cam, you name it. I bet they can follow him almost everywhere he went. And if he took an Uber or share a ride share, there may be video in there that can help me track him and find the knife. That said, here's another zany theory. Listen up, Dube.

[Studio A8 TikTok Commentator]

Nick Reiner, who is allegedly the murderer in this case, the son of Robin Michelle, who killed both of his parents, allegedly. His name did not appear on Google trends Really? At all. Here's it. In the United States. United States, Nick Reiner. Nothing. Nothing. This is showing starting yesterday, 14th. So that was the United States. This is what happens happens when you look up the exact same query and only change the geolocation to be Tel Aviv instead of the United States. Nick Reiner, Tel Aviv. Nothing, Nothing, Nothing. Oh, look at that. Two bumps a couple months ago last month. Interesting.

[Nancy Grace]

All of a sudden, bumps again From S Studio A8 on TikTok. So, Dubai, I guess.

[Sidney Sumner]

She's arguing.

[Nancy Grace]

You may want to take notes to put this in with your drug psychosis theory that he, what, is actually a spy. She's mentioning Tel Aviv. I don't know what that has to do with. Maybe he's an avatar. Maybe he's a ghost. Maybe he doesn't even exist. Then who's that sitting in the twin towers?

[Philip Dubay]

I gotta tell you, I think it's genius. Because if we're all honest, it forms the basis of the not guilty by reason of insanity defense. If he truly thinks that he's gonna be beamed up by the starship Enterprise and he's got all kinds of wild imaginings.

[Nancy Grace]

Nobody said that. You said that.

[Philip Dubay]

Well, what else would.

[Nancy Grace]

He just didn't have a Google profile. He had no social media profile.

[Philip Dubay]

The fact that the evidence.

[Nancy Grace]

And now you're claiming you've got another psychosis defense because he's not on social media?

[Philip Dubay]

No, not because of that.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, good. I'm happy you said that. I couldn't be more happy. I hope you use that at trial.

[Sidney Sumner]

Hey, just to throw this into your

[Nancy Grace]

crazy pot to stew.

[Studio A8 TikTok Commentator]

Listen, Donald Trump got on Truth Social and said this, which is horrific and tonally and timeline wise to me, does seem like a confession. He's listed motive right there. Means doesn't even need to be explained. And the funny thing is he got on camera today and doubled down on it again, specifically the part with Russia. He was like, he's trying to look into this and dig all this stuff up. And as you know, it's always the opposite where like, there's nothing weird there. It's just so blatantly obvious at Studio

[Nancy Grace]

A8 on tick tock. So, Dr. Bethany Marshall I don't think that's going to help Alan Jackson at this juncture that Trump confessed to a motive.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

No, it is not. I mean, conspiracy theorists take something that is sort of benign. I hate to call domestic homicide benign, but it does happen. And they try to spin a whole theory out of it to try to make it a part of a predictable universe, but it's not. You know, people love to form patterns. And so conspiracy theorists will try to form a pattern out of an outlier like domestic homicide. And that's all this is. They're just trying to form a pattern.

[Courtroom Narrator]

Nancy the sitting judge has handed the case over to a new long term judge. Because the new long term judge will oversee proceedings in the near future and very likely the actual trial. We expect Nick Reiner's mental fitness to be the center of the initial proceedings. Will that be the ultimate defense or will it just be a way to delay the case? For instance, if he claims incompetence, there has to be hearing after hearing after hearing until he is treated and deemed competent to aid his lawyers at trial. Then at trial, the defense could be insanity at the time of the incident or some other dude did it. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, signing off.

[Nancy Grace]

Goodbye, friend.

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[Sidney Sumner]

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[Nancy Grace]

Mom, can I have Lingokids? That's Lingokids, please.

[Public Investing Platform Announcer]

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[Sydney Sumner]

No idea.

[Sidney Sumner]

Last week it was dinosaurs.

[Sophia Donner]

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[Nancy Grace]

Why Lingokids?

[Court Reporter]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Public Investing Legal Disclaimer]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Sidney Sumner]

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[Bethenny Frankel]

So no dinosaurs and dinosaurs.

[Nancy Grace]

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[Police Officer]

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[Nancy Grace]

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