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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
NOLAN WELLS AUTOPSY: DEEP TISSUE DISCOLORATION BACK OF HEAD, NECK BONE MISSING
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A
This is an I Heart podcast, Guaranteed Human Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Bombshell tonight in the tragic death of a young man, Nolan Wells. In the last hours, we learn the contents of a second independent autopsy on Nolan's body. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. No one was not on board. His body spotted by the United Cajun Navy. We knew in this case the timeframe that was involved that we were looking for a recovery. At this point, it appears as though
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B
it was a drowning.
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Whatever happened, happened really, really close to
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where the body was found.
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C
Preliminary report, second autopsy, death of Nolan Xavier Wells. Cause of death undetermined, pending investigation. And we'll explain that as we go through the report this morning. The manner of death, undetermined, pending investigation.
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A
What happened to Nolan Wells? I listened and I listened and I listened to our friend Ben Crump and as he went through the independent autopsy. And this is what I find to
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be probative preliminary findings. And this is significant focal area of red discoloration in the soft tissue of the back of the head, the occipital region. He said the etiology is unknown at this time. He said the body was received after the initial autopsy. He said the body had marked decompensy comp. Decompensation, decomposition.
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A
What does that mean? Probatively, what does that probably prove? Joining me, an all star panel to make sense of what we are learning tonight. That was an independent autopsy ordered by Nolan Wells family. We still don't have the official autopsy from the Mississippi Medical examiner's office, but straight out to a renowned medical examiner. You know him well. Joining us, Dr. Kendall Crowns. He is the chief medical examiner of Tarrant County, Fort Worth. Literally thousands and thousands and thousands of autopsies under his belt. He is the esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at tcu. I don't have to explain to you what it takes to become not just a medical examiner, but the chief medical examiner in a metropolitan area like Fort Worth. All that aside, cod mod undetermined. But what jumped out at me among so many things, Dr. Kendall crowns, what does he mean about the red discoloration in the deep soft tissues overlaying the occipital bones? What is that? Translate.
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D
So what that is is the occipital bone is the bone in the. This is your skull. It's the bone in the back of your head, the directly back side of your head. So when he's describing these hemorrhages in the deep soft tissues, it Means deep in the musculature that holds your head in place, there is a red discoloration. What could this be? It could be settling of the blood from decomposition or from lividity. Cooling of the blood. The body has been kind of put on its back and transported to Washington, D.C. so that could be that. It could also be.
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A
Trust me. I don't think I know more than you on this, Dr. Kendall crowns. But you got me drinking out of the fire hydrant. You're giving me so much information, I had to break in right there because you said the. I'm gonna quote, posterior red discoloration in deep soft tissue overlying occipital. Deep soft tissue. To a lay person like me, that means it's deep below the skin. And you just stated that that could be from the settling of the blood. In other words, if he were lying on his back when he died, the blood would settle to the back of his head. But isn't it true to you? Brian Trasher, Vice President, United Cajun Navy. The Navy participated in the search. And I got to clear up that whole thing about fully clothed with you. That said, isn't it true? And I'm looking at the picture on my phone that I got from an undisclosed source. I'm looking at Nolan's body on the beach. We are not showing it. He's face down, isn't he?
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E
Yes, that's correct. Yeah, he was when we flew.
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A
Okay, I'm going to come back to you about the clothing.
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F
Yeah.
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A
What? Repeat.
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E
No, I said when we observed him from the air. Yeah, he was face down, and he was wearing swim trunks and only swim trunks. I think that the term fully clothed just got taken out of context.
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A
Well, when you look at the body from high up, it appears at first like he had on a shirt with swim trunks. But he does not have on a shirt. He only has on swim trunks. That's a whole peripheral issue. But back to Dr. Kendall Crowns. So Dr. Kendall Crowns. You may have an explanation for this. I've already thought of one, and I'm not a medical examiner, but I don't see how the deep red I'm talking about. Was there a blow to the back of the head? Did he fall off a boat? Did he hit his head on something else? If it turns out he drowned, how did he get in the water? Why was he in the water? Why did everybody leave him? Lots of questions tonight. But if he was found face down, the blood would not have settled to the back of his occipital.
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D
Well, that's correct at the initial autopsy. But he was also Transported to Washington, D.C. on his back, I assume, not on his face. And so after death, you can still have pooling of the blood in the dependent areas. If the lividity is not fixed, or even if it is fixed, you can have pooling. So it is difficult to say, without seeing the actual reddened area in the deep soft tissue, whether this is just a decompositional artifact or if it is indeed blunt force trauma. Now, they're not describing any injuries to the skin surface which would still be there if he was. Even if he's decomposed, you would still see injuries, abrasions, bruises, lacerations, things of that nature, even with decomposition. So it's difficult to give significance to this deep red area in the musculature of the deep soft tissues of the back of the head. Without further photographs or more information to me, it. Could it be blunt force trauma? Yes. Could it be a decompositional artifact? Yes. Could it be something from transport? Yes. Hard to say at this point.
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A
Okay, hold on. Let me just take each one of those and the rest of the panel, please. If you've got a question or a point, jump in. We need all of your brain power. Oh, that's. That's an OBED invitation to Mobley to jump in. But three things. You said that there could still be pooling of the blood, and I don't want to be too DEFCON 4 into this and get lost in the weeds, but no one is dead. He's already been autopsied. Days have passed, and you're telling me that the blood could still sift down from the front of his face to the back of his neck in one specific area? Why was it pulling all the way down his neck? Or why just that one area? I don't believe that when you have been deceased that long, you've already undergone autopsy, they've drained the blood from your body that somehow, in the few hours of transport, you're gonna get pooling of the blood to one area in the back of your neck.
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D
So, first off, it's not a few hours of transport. It's from whenever the autopsy ended, he's placed on his back. Whenever he's picked up at the scene, he's been placed on his back. So all that comes into play. They don't drain all the blood from the body at autopsy, there's still blood in the body after autopsy. And also, decomposition causes the breakdown of tissues, including musculature, which can give a reddish decoloration from the actual decomposition Process of the muscle. So all these have to be considered when you're saying a reddened area, because the doctor didn't call it hemorrhage, which is interesting to me. He called it a reddened area, so I don't know what he's describing. I would love to see pictures, but again, there's no description of a bruise or an abrasion or a laceration on the skin surface of the back of the head. So what the significance of this is, could it be a decompositional change? Could it be something else like blunt force injury? It's hard to say. At this point in time, I find
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it very difficult to believe Dr. Kendall crowns that not one, but two medical examiners cannot figure out why he had deep red subcutaneous markings. Subcutaneous. What is that? Deep subcutaneous. What is that?
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It's underneath the skin. Meaning in the fat or the muscle underneath the skin.
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Okay, straight out to John Mobley, joining me out of Charleston. He's a renowned trial attorney, founded John Mobley law Firm. Okay, Mobley. Have at it.
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Well, you know, Nancy, I gotta call it like I see it. You know, there are a lot of things that I don't like about this presentation. I think the problem. The first problem I see is they put out this autopsy and they kind of gave you a lot of sizzle. They gave a big dog and pony show, but they didn't really make it clear on the findings and conclusions and how they could be interpreted. And I think that's kind of the problem with this case. They put all this stuff out there, all the legal terms, all this, you know, forensic jargon, and now everybody's whipped up in a frenzy trying to understand what it means, speculating, guessing. And the reality of it is, unless you're an expert, a forensic expert, you're not. None of us are qualified to interpret those findings. Now, I've been involved in countless homicide cases where I've had to look at forensic autopsies and discuss the findings with experts. And that's what you have to do. And ultimately, what it comes down to is they put this thing out there, this preliminary autopsy finding, and they did not present any real conclusions. And that is a problem, you know. And to address your specific concern, Nancy
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put up Mobly. Listen, I'm not vouching for the character of Crump or Sharpton. That said, of course. Are you saying they were wrong not to put it out there? I think they were right to put it out there. Whether it's inconclusive or not, the manner
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in which they present.
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A
What do you mean by that?
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G
He just sat there and read it. And number one, I don't think he was the best person to read it. He's just kind of reading off medical terms that he didn't do the best job of pronouncing, and they didn't really present a conclusive finding. And what that does is.
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A
Well, there is no conclusive finding, Mobley.
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G
Well, he could have said that. Because what he does, though, no matter which is presented, when you take a case like this, you take little bits and pieces and put them out there in that manner. What you're doing is you're feeding these conspiracy theories like, oh, my God, there's some big mystery, some conspiracy about what happened regarding saying, hey, here's the deal in situations like this, based on the rate of decomposition, things like that.
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A
Don't you get it, man? We still don't have the answer. I don't have the answer. He's got a red mark deep in subcutaneous tissue on the back of his head.
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G
Wait, here's a.
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Go back to Kendall Browns real quick. Kendall. Kendall. Where's Kendall? Why am I not seeing Kendall? Kendall, Please turn around and show everybody what we're talking about, because I'm doing this. Show me occipital.
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Occipitals right here, back ahead.
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How?
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Right where your neck
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out of his whole body. Is that where the blood pools? I'm just. I'm not buying it. And I'm not saying this is a homicide. I am saying it. There are a lot of disturbing circumstances surrounding this young man, the star athlete's death, and I am not letting it go. And I don't care how much hate mail you send me. I do not care. Okay, Mobley, what else?
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G
What I want to state is that, and this is based on my experience being involved in numerous homicides, having examined numerous autopsies and discussed the case, and the findings of numerous forensic pathologists. When you have a body, a human individual, okay, that person has experienced trauma and various physical trauma in various aspects of their life. They just had a picture of him being a football, wearing a football uniform. He can sustain injuries playing football in practice, horse round with his friends. So, you know, a person can die and have different injuries that pre existed to the date of the death that are completely unrelated to the death, but they are there on the body because they're a live, active individual. And that's my whole point about your fixation on the injury to the back of the head. I'm not saying that it Was necessarily predated the injury. But there's got to be some medical evidence to tie it to his death. And there is not because they can't do that. They cannot date that injury.
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A
Okay, guys, you're hearing Mobly. I just lost a satellite. Get that back up for me. In the meantime, let me hear Crump talking about part of the neck structures and specifically the interior where that I'm going to call it bruising. I'll call it a reddened area because we don't know what it was. Were absent from the body. What happened to that part of the body? Listen across.
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So when they are buried, their remains will all be with them. But in this occasion, if there's going to be a second autopsy, then the organs are put in the body cavity so the second pathologist could be able to examine the organs as well. Very significant for Dr. Mitchell was that the anterior Internet structures were absent. Not received with the body.
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From our friends at naacp. Okay, back to you, Kendall Crowns. And hello, I've got an all star panel. Where are they? Did they lose their voices? Dr. Kendall crowns. Wouldn't it be important for the second medical examiner, second doctor to be able to look at the anterior neck structure? They're absent and not received from the body. Not received with the body.
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D
That's correct. So it would be important. And that's often the problem with second autopsy is structures are kept by the initial medical examiner for further testing or further evaluation. So the second autopsy is often limited by this. So the problem is the neck structures. We're talking about hyoid bone, thyroid cartilage, laryngeal structures are the structures that are often involved with strangulation. They can be taken by a medical examiner, dissected, evaluated for fractures or injuries or something of that nature. But then they're kept and they are also then further evaluated by a forensic anthropologist who will look for micro fractures and things like that to see if there's any trauma whatsoever. And that's probably what's occurring in this case is they're doing their due diligence and looking at all those next structures to rule out the possibility of a strangulation. And they haven't done it yet. And that's why they're still pending. And that's why the second examination can't give you more facts because they don't have those structures to look at. Hopefully there will be sharing between the two medical examiners so they can both come to the same conclusion at some point. But right now those structures are being evaluated by someone Else and not available for the second autopsy.
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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want to talk to you about what you just said. If I see deep reddening of the tissue in the back of the neck, I'm going to quit calling it the occipital. The back of the neck at the lower part of the head. I want to know what happened up here. I want to know was the hyoid bone, which is very fragile, it's not attached to anything. It's kind of floating there. And often in ligature manual, any type of strangulation or stopping your airflow, you'll see that very delicate bone fractured. It's gone. Where is it? Everybody's got one. So where is it? Also, Crump stated that the portion of the neck, the interior portion of the neck that would correspond with the hemorrhaging in the back is missing. There are two ways to look at this. One is that it's missing because it's been hidden. It's being withheld from the second doctor. Why? The other way to look at it is what you suggested Kendall crowns. And that is that I've seen this done the way that medical examiners and medical related forensic anthropologists do it. They get a tiny cut, tiny cut of that tissue. They put that under a microscope and they look to see if cells have bruising. It's very painstaking. Could they be doing that? I don't know. But it seems to me they would have included that in their notations that these portions of Nolan's body had been withheld for further testing. But we didn't hear anything about that. Straight out to Sam Krupen joining us, investigative journalist and star of Samson's World. Sam, did you hear anything about water in the lungs?
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No, Nancy, I've heard nothing about water in the lungs. And honestly, I've just been sitting here infuriated that everybody is putting so much pressure on this second autopsy that thankfully Colin Kaepernick paid for. But why are we not putting pressure on Sheriff John Ledbetter? Where is the first autopsy? Why have they held it out? There is a video of two nurses who claim to have seen the transport of this body and they said he was face down. So it's honestly, for me, it's just disgusting to see the lack of understanding people commenting on how Ben Crump is reading. People saying Ben Crump is a race hustler. He's the person who's responsible for justice for Ahmaud Arbery who was killed by three racist people and it was covered up. Stacy Turner, the medical examiner is well known for the death of Trey Reid. Ruling it a homicide. She is known for ruling black deaths. She is known.
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I look like a witch stirring a cauldron tonight. I don't really see myself that way. Do not stir the pot, croupin, because this is not about politics. This is not what somebody did a long time ago in another case. This is about what we are learning tonight. Yes, and my question is, where's the original autopsy? My guess is that they are waiting on the results that Dr. Kilman crowns just talked about and more. Hey, hold. Simmer down. I want to get to the facts. The facts of this case. I want to go back to Brian Trasher on that. Heather, I'm going to get to you in just one moment regarding the tracking of the phone and the Snapchat and all the digital footprint. But to you, Brian, let's. Again, let me pull it back up. We are not showing this photo. Do not show it. Control room. Brian again. United Cajun Navy spotted search for and spotted Nolan's body. Tell me what was seen. Let's see some of that aerial video.
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E
Yeah. So we were flying over the northwest tip of Horn island after about two hours in the air, canvassing a pretty large area when we noticed some law enforcement boats converging to the northwest tip. We descended, circled around and saw a number of law enforcement personnel on the beach. And then you could see a body laying on at the shoreline. Of course, using a zoom lens to go in, we could see that the body matched the description of Nolan Wells. The whole thing about Ben Crump mentioning that we told the parents he was fully clothed, that's not true. We never told the parents that he was wearing just the swim trunks that matched the description that in the. In the missing persons report. And it matched the photos that were taken of him that day. And that was all he was presumed.
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A
That's all I want to say. Brian. Brian, I want to show some video. Oh, there it is. I hope you can see your monitor. That is from our friends over at tmz. It's a video that we and I believe is Nolan Wells. And I can tell you from looking at the aerial photo, I've zoomed in on it. Those appear to be the same pants that he was wearing when his body was found. His body looks like it just washed up on shore right now. Regarding cod. Yet when you look at it way up, it looks like he's wearing a shirt. But when you zoom in, you see he's not wearing a shirt nor is he wearing shoes? Okay. Isn't it true Dr. Kendall Crowns, medical examiner, lecturer, star of mayhem in the morgue. So much more. Dr. Kendall crowns. Isn't it true that in certain cases, and I learned this on an arson case, COD Cause of death, manner of death as well, mod can also be determined at times based on what we call extrinsic evidence. For instance, in the arson case, I'm talking about the evidence that the perp checked the weather station, the weather report for the day the arson went down, killed his wife, that he moved out, all of his nice suits and family, photos of his family, not his wife's family, all of his important tax documents, everything out of the house the day before the arson in which his wife was killed. Also, he called his insurance company and asked, hey, if I have a fire in my home, will you cover rental furniture? And then his house burned down the next day. The medical examiner looked at that evidence as well when determining mod had been homicide. Isn't it true, my question, that a medical examiner will look at extrinsic evidence as well as what they see on the body itself?
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D
Yes. All evidence is considered in an autopsy. You can't autopsy in a vacuum with no investigative information, no toxicologic findings. All you have is autopsy findings. You. You can make mistakes in not coming to the right conclusions about cause of death and really manner of death. So those findings are important in the case you used. It's evidence that he had a plan that he was getting, taking things, taking actions to eliminate his wife, light his house on fire. That would play in the role into it as far as arson, the arson investigation would be helpful. All that would be given to the medical examiner because the autopsy would show the individual died in a fire. And that's all the information I would be able to tell you. Without that investigative information, I wouldn't be able to tell you whether it was a homicide, suicide, accident. Not natural, of course, because it's a fire. But again, investigative information is very important. And that is also probably why the Mississippi medical examiner is still taking their time. And even the D.C. medical examiner said more investigative information.
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A
Both of them are the expert, not me. But let me just cut you off right there, because the answer to that was yes, you do consider extrinsic evidence. That said, listen to this.
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I don't think that Nolan would say, hey, bro, I'm staying with this girl in the island. Y' all go ahead and go back. Like, not even asking to get his phone back. You know what I mean? I've never known Nolan to stay back while his friends leave. He's always been a guy where if he rode with you, he's going to come back with you. That's always how he's been every single time.
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For Christine, it said one place, but for them on Snapchat, it showed another place. So that's the place we went to. And it showed that everybody that was in the house, it was, like, a lot of people there. So that's how we knew where to go to. We went there. They were all there. They were sitting there, lights off, watching tv.
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They did.
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They gave me the phone, but it took about 15 minutes to get the phone because I. I even asked. I'm like, did y' all have to walk back to Horn island to get the phone? Or, like, where's the phone? Because it took so long when they said it was. When Wyatt told me it was in his truck, it took him so long to get the phone back to me.
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You are seeing friends of the Wells's family speaking on Laura Coates Live. Okay, I want to talk about the phone issue, and again, I don't want Nolan to be dead at all. I want this to be an accidental death, but I am not turning a blind eye to concerning aspects of this investigation. In the end, it may turn out to be accidental, but why would you leave no one there? Why would you say your boat was sinking and then take multiple more trips in the boat that night? According to reports, so many of the facts are not lining up. But first, let's start with a digital footprint today. Mack joining us, crime stories, investigative reporter. What are they saying about the phone?
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Well, the family says that when they were able to finally retrieve the phone. Okay. They get there to get the phone back and have to wait 15 minutes outside while the young people who had the phone for some reason took their time getting it to them, and when they did, when they got.
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A
I don't see that as a problem. No, Well, I don't see that as a problem. They're teen boys. They got to go outside, and they've got to get the phone out of the truck. What I see is the problem is the phone is there and he's somewhere else. Who leaves their phone behind? Who leaves their phone behind when they're on a desert island, stranded on an island? Why would you go without your phone? That's what sparked my interest. Dave.
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B
Mack, I'm sorry. I. Okay, I was. I misunderstood where you were headed with it, but here's the catcher is that Nolan was always taking pictures, Nancy. And so the part about this that really gets home is that a he always had his phone to take pictures and was always uploading. He was very active in those pictures being published online. And when the family actually got his phone, it had been cleaned. There was no, there was no Instagram or Snapchat that had been removed. It was gone.
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A
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me understand something, Dave Mack, you say there was no Snapchat, no Insta. It was gone. You mean it was all gone or just gone for that day?
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B
Just for that day. Nancy they suspect that based on that, that other messages or media may have also been deleted.
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H
Okay.
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A
All right. That's all I want to hear right now. Dave Mack, I'm going to an expert that knows more than me and you put together. Dave Heather Barnhart is with us, digital forensics expert with Cellebrite and the SANS Institute, one of the digital forensic investigators in the Kohberger case that cracked that wide open. She is co author of Practical Mobile Forensics in its fourth edition, which means a lot of people are using it to teach and reading it. Her blog, smarter forensics.com I could go on. Heather Barnhart, thank you for being with us tonight. Number one, can you look at a phone and determine if items were deleted?
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H
Absolutely. And Nancy, here's a huge thing to think about. I assume his phone had a password. There are certain things that you need the password to do, such as delete activity. But if you don't have a password and you pick up your phone, if you're touching the screen, that leaves a trace. If you're trying to power it off, that leaves a trace. So we should be able to see people without a password trying to actively interact with that phone as well as someone that has it.
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A
So how can you look at a phone, Heather Barnhart, and determine the difference between no photos were taken that day. Also, can you take photos even if you don't have reception? I think you can, but I'm not an expert. How can you look at a phone and determine no photos were taken that day as opposed to items were deleted? Because can't you delete from the deleted file?
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H
Yes, you can do, you can do everything you just talked about, but again, all of that leaves a trace. So we would do a forensic acquisition and that's really important here, someone just looking in the phone, you can get a glimpse, but you can't see what's deleted and hiding below the surface. We need a forensic acquisition to do that. We can tell if it was just soft deleted. So, like sitting in A trash can or a hard delete. So if you empty your trash on your phone and then you go and throw it into a dumpster and the trash is taken away, there is a log that tracks everything also with timestamps on when that activity occurred.
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A
Okay, I need that broken down in regular people talk. We're not all experts. Could you say that so everybody can understand?
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H
Yeah, yeah. So let's. Let's say Nolan had an iPhone. He could take pictures without cell service at all. Cell service and wi fi do not matter. He could even post them to Instagram or to Snapchat and they'll sit in a temporary directory until he has service. Sometimes that fails, but we still see that activity when we do forensics. If you delete a picture, Nancy, it sits in a recycle bin, your iPhone, and you can recover that for about 30 to 40 days as a normal user. If you empty that trash, it's not recoverable, but we doing forensics can still find it.
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A
Okay, so you mean it's not recoverable for me, a layperson, but you can recover it, Even the pictures, even the content of the text or snaps. You can recover that if you get
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H
a full file system acquisition, and I realize that's really nerdy, but this is where acquisition and time to evidence matters. Deleted data exists and sits there for a period of time. So time to evidence is everything here.
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A
How long will it sit there?
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H
If it's an iPhone, it's a little bit different than Android iPhone. Apple's more forgiving. And you have about 30 days. With Android, you could have just a few days until location artifacts are purged.
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A
You mean, okay, a few days. Do you mean one day, two days, 10 days?
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H
It could be between one and seven on Android, but with iPhone, it's typically about seven to seven.
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A
We're safe. One, we're not safe. Okay. And what I'm referring to is if he did have an Android, can I recover if there were photos, snaps, text deleted? That's what I'm trying to find out. Because if somebody's deleting texts and emails and snaps and pictures, I got a problem. Why delete? That is my problem. Now here's my next question. I'm sure I'm going to say it very inarticulately, but I think you'll know what I mean. Even if you cannot recover, let's pretend it was an Android. Even if you cannot recover the actual item itself, can you see a log that says something was deleted?
- [35:24]
H
Yes, but it depends on the activity. So Snapchat will be tracked differently than a regular photo versus a regular text message. But deep dive forensics will recover the truth. And you mentioned Brian Kohberger. There was nothing. All that data was cleaned up and deleted. But the lack of data and the time on when it was removed was huge in the investigation. And that could be huge. On proving the last time Nolan actually used his device versus people taking steps with it and walking around with it when it was out of his possession.
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A
Okay, number one, you're brilliant. Number two, regarding snap being in one one place, life360 being in another place. What can you tell me about that?
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H
Think of each application as having its own folder or a container. So all the things you do in that application exist in that container. A full deletion would be throwing that container away. So nothing's there. Sporadic deletion would be removing one thing at a time or deleting a most recent story or a post. And that stands out drastically to forensic examiners because it's uncommon behavior based upon what Nolan would typically do on his device.
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A
Straight out to Sam Kruipen joining us, investigative journalist, star of Sampson's World. You have thoughts on the phone?
- [36:58]
I
Yeah, Nancy, here's the thing. Everybody keeps saying that you keep your phone on the boat when you go into the water. We can all agree that makes sense. But what doesn't make sense is when his friends leave him, he's not going to not get his phone to take with him. Who in their right mind would get stuck on an island without their phone? It makes zero sense to me at all. And then also the fact that all of his friends deleted all their social media accounts. They haven't spoken to anybody. As far as I know, they didn't even go to the funeral. It makes people believe that they are hiding something.
- [37:36]
A
Okay, back to probative evidence. He's got a point. Croupin has a point. I could see being out in the water without your phone, but it would be over my cold, dead body that I would let a boat leave with my phone and my keys and my everything. Okay, listen to this.
- [37:59]
K
He said, hey, Ms. Christine, have you seen Nolan or talked to Nolan? I said, no. I thought he was with you guys. You know, he's like, no, nobody's talked to him. We left the island at, I think he said, 3pm and he wanted to stay because he was talking to a girl named Katie. Katie is also missing. No one can find her. And the explanation of no one knows this Katie, like we've never met her
- [38:28]
L
type of deal how would they know Katie's missing if they didn't even know who Katie was? So then Katie's sister chimed in. Katie made it home because she was on another boat and with different people. Katie assumed the friends telling him to get on the boat wouldn't have left him. So the question is, where was Nolan? After the interaction of Katie, did Katie see him get on that boat?
- [39:00]
A
From our friends at NBC and the real TikTok detective there at the inn, who, who said it so eloquently, More questions spinning out because of the phone. Why was it on the boat? Why did he let the boat leave without it? And speaking of the boat, listen to this.
- [39:20]
L
So first, at 9:56am the boat leaves the original dock. It arrives at horn island at 11:14. So at around 4 o' clock, there is a call to the Coast Guard about the boat. NBC News got a hold of it.
- [39:40]
A
We're sinking. Can y' all please come? And is everybody on board in good health otherwise? Yeah, yeah, everybody's off the way.
- [39:46]
L
Everybody's on board. So does that mean Nolan is on there? Who was on that boat?
- [39:54]
A
Okay, there are innocent explanations for that and there are nefarious explanations for that. But I do know this. They stated the boat was sinking, but was it?
- [40:11]
L
At 4:31, the boat leaves Horn island and it is towed approximately three miles and then the tow ends. So after three miles they go back to the original dock. Okay. They arrive at 5:44pm so it looks like this is where Horn island is and this is where the original dock is that I am referring to. I looked it up and El Camino Railroad is in Gulf Hills, Mississippi, which is right above Ocean Springs. So I'm wondering if this is the house where they got the phone. The boat travels to fort Bayou. At 6:06, the boat returns to the original dock. Then from the original dock, the boat goes back to Fort Bayou and then they go to the boat launch and it is put onto the trailer and moved by the vehicle. Did they drop people off at the original dock, travel to Fort Bayou, pick somebody up and go back to that original dock and then from there. Why was there an hour and 13 minute time gap? This boat was sinking hours before and then they're just having it docked for an hour and 13 minutes. You would think they'd want to get that boat out of the water asap.
- [41:39]
A
From the real tick tock detective, and she's got a point. Does nobody have a problem with that? The boat is sinking when they call for help and then they take the boat around for hours that night. Okay, Mobly, you don't have a problem with that?
- [41:57]
G
I would want to know the nature of the malfunction of the boat and whether or not it was a pair. I mean, that's what it comes down to.
- [42:05]
A
Explain, please.
- [42:07]
G
I mean, it's not complicated. I mean, what it comes down to is what was the nature of the complication of the boat and was it repaired? And if it was prepared properly, then I don't see any issue with it. And I want to be clear. Those are legitimate questions. But again, as I alluded to earlier, when you start taking bits and pieces of puzzle and you start putting them out there without context, that's when you start spreading misinformation, I would assume.
- [42:31]
A
Well, you're right, but I certainly do not believe that this investigation needs to be shut down because there are potential innocent explanations. You don't just end an investigation because it could all be explained away. And I'm not saying his friends are responsible or not responsible, because I don't know. Is it true, Crouppen, that many of the people there that day have lawyered up and they're not talking? Is that true? Or have they, unbeknownst to me, have they cooperated and spoken to authorities?
- [43:09]
I
I mean, from what we've seen, that was what happened. They all deleted their social media accounts right away. They lawyered up. So it seems as though they've been advised. And here's a big question for me, Nancy. Was the company that allegedly got the call that they were in distress, and their official statement was, before assistance was rendered, the vessel owner advised that Seato was no longer needed because help had already been obtained. Seato's involvement concluded at that point.
- [43:40]
A
Seato, everybody is two words. S, E a T O W. They come and render aid and haul in, you know, tug in boats, ships that need help. Okay, hold on. Heather Barnhart with me, digital forensics expert, author, co author of Practical Mobile Forensics, fourth edition. What about gps? What can I learn from the GPS on that boat? Because I want to know.
- [44:07]
H
His phone is on the boat. It is tracking every location that the boat went to. I would also be curious on the last time the phone was unlocked, the last steps, even if it's not unlocked, last steps will be tracked and last general usage because we may be able to say the last time that Nolan was on his device and physically using it, which would be really helpful in this investigation.
- [44:31]
A
Straight out to Brian Trasher joining us. Vice President, United Cajun Navy, who participated in the Search for Nolan. Couple of questions. What can you tell me about GPS on boats, Brian?
- [44:42]
E
Yeah, I mean, they operate just like any other kind of gps. They get fed from satellites, and they keep archives of logs and trips and things like that. A couple of things I want to point out there, Nancy, because I'm probably the only person on the panel that's been to Horn Island. You know, they said going back to the phone and possible deleted messages and all that. When his mother first said she thought that messages had been deleted, she. She later clarified that when she was talking about. She thought it was odd that Nolan had not done any Snapchats, which. Which was his favorite app, presumably. So the reason why he didn't do any Snapchat, because he didn't have a signal. It's very hard to get a cell phone signal on Horn Island. And Snapchat doesn't upload if you don't have a signal. You know what I told him was to check his camera roll. If he wasn't able to upload on his app, maybe he just took pictures with his regular camera and saved it to his camera roll, see if there's any pictures on there. But there's no evidence to suggest that anybody went in and deleted any text messages or anything like that that day. So I just want to. We've been fighting so much information out there. Just don't want to. Want to help spread it by not addressing that.
- [45:47]
A
Brian Trasher, you and I go back a long way with your involvement with United Cajun Navy. I only have one question for you. Are you a digital forensics expert?
- [45:57]
E
Oh, no. Absolutely not.
- [45:59]
A
No further questions. Thank you, Brian Trasher, let me talk about something that you do know about, which includes boat gps. What exactly? Last time for tonight, what exactly was seen when no one's body was found? Every detail.
- [46:24]
E
Okay, so the body was right at the shoreline, right where the water meets the sand. It was laying face down. And like I said earlier, the swim trunks that were described and photographed that he was photographed in the day he died or the day he presumably died, where he was still wearing. Did not appear to be wearing shoes or a shirt. And, yeah, face down. And there were law enforcement kind of standing all around him, you know, just like whatever. They were doing their jobs, I'm sure. But that is what I saw from the air.
- [46:55]
A
I'm looking at it. His. Let's see his face down. His left foot is on top of what looks to be some kelp that has washed ashore. He looks almost as if he's sleeping. He Looks to he is face down. He's wearing. At first it appeared to be a shirt. He's not wearing a shirt. Upon zooming in on it, he's barefoot. I don't see anything on his wrists or arms such as, you know, a watch. I don't see that. It looks to me like he's sleeping on his stomach with his right leg a little bent outward and his left leg outward as well, like he's asleep on a mattress. His left arm is out and down like he's a stomach slee. And it looks to me like his head is turned to one way into the sand. Now, given that position, I see no way that blood could have pooled in the back of his neck. He is absolutely face down. But that is Another argument for Dr. Kendall, crowns and myself for another night. This is what we know tonight. What we are learning from the second and independent autopsy is we know nothing. But Crump did hit the nail on the head. As it relates to this, the critical moment is when and how Nolan Wells entered the water.
- [48:27]
C
At the time of this report, this forensic pathologist does not know the condition Nolan Wells. He did not know whether he was conscious or unconscious when he entered the water. He said that would be significant. He said he did not know whether he was forced into the water or unforced into the water. He said that would be significant. So he said the condition of Nolan Wells before he entered the water would be the crux of the matter. It would be of utmost importance to being able to determine a cause and manner of death.
- [49:19]
A
How did Nolan Wells end up in the water? How is there so much confusion about who was with him last? Why can't I identify how everybody in that crowded area on Horn island left and what left him there standing, waving his arms? Don't leave. It's not making sense. And we are not resting until it does make sense. Listen. He had a deep love for the Lord and an unwavering faith that was evident in the way he lived his life. As much as our hearts are broken, we find peace in knowing that our son is resting in the arms of the Lord. If you know or think you know anything regarding the death of this young star athlete, Nolan Wells, dial 2287-6930-6322-8769-3063. We remember American hero officer Adam Ashworth, St. George PD, Utah, passing away in the line of duty, leaving behind wife Bobby and three beautiful children, Hannah, Matteson and Jackson. American hero officer Adam Ashworth. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend. This is an I heart podcast, guaranteed human.