← Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
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- [00:00]
A
This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human. It's party time. Did he actually say that it's party time? Oh yes he did. It's party time. Says the ex as he records a seven hour torture night murder session of a gorgeous young nurse and mother. How dare he. He recorded it. That's how I know he said it's party time. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with.
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B
Katherine. Torvik is a beloved nurse and devoted mother known for bringing warmth and positive energy everywhere she goes until her light is brutally extinguished when she suddenly stops answering her phone. Police rush to her home and find her unresponsive.
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A
Incredible. And I'm going to get to veteran defense attorney Franz Borghardt in just a moment and hear him tell me how that recording is inadmissible and nobody will ever hear it and that it doesn't mean anything and this guy has a mental illness and the blah and the blah, blah, blah. But first, before I hear all that cacophony, I want to go straight out to a special guest. Joining me it is Maria Ocapiato, a very dear friend and co worker of Kat Torbeck. May she rest in peace. How can she rest in peace? I do not know because she is leaving behind a 12 year old little boy, Jackson. Okay, Maria, I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
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C
Thank you.
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A
Let's start at the beginning. When did you learn something had gone horribly wrong with Cat?
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C
So last last week, Thursday. You know, my boss was messaging me that telling me that they could not get a hold of Katie, her other work because she has three jobs. So I messaged Kat and I said where are you? And I'm hoping you're okay because I know the whole situation on what happened to her and back in March and, and I'm. I have this bad feeling, Nancy, that there's gonna be something coming for her. I'm sorry, this is just new to me. So I just, I can't process this like right now. But so when we found out later that she was murdered, they found her that night on Thursday. So this is Friday, the next day where I found out and I just talked to her on Thursday, I mean Tuesday that week. And um, we were just having a great conversation and um, talking about her um, you know, event that she's going on on, on Saturday. And she had her hair done, looks gorgeous as she always does and, and then she just gone that week. It's so unexpected and I knew that that's going to happen to her. And I've been telling her a bunch of times, a million times that she needs to get out of there because it's not safe for her. I'm just going, I'm sorry.
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With us is Maria, a very dear friend, a co worker of cats. And you're seeing what crime does, the incredible wake of devastation it leaves behind. Can you imagine what her 12 year old son is going through? This is. This woman looks like a model. I've never seen a bad photo of her.
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She is.
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Aside from being beautiful on the outside, she's beautiful on the inside. And worked three jobs to support her little boy who has just turned 12. Jackson. And he is at that moment, you know, when I had children, I couldn't imagine they would need me any more than when they were little babies and they needed me for them to live and survive. But when you get to 11, 12, 13, 14, those are some of the most critical years in their lives. And now he doesn't have a mother. What I believe to be the single most important person in your life, she's gone and under such horrible circumstances. Maria, I want you to tell your story, but I've got to follow up on a few things that you said. First you mentioned she's working three jobs. I know one was at. Was it a hospital or a doctor's office?
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C
Yes. So she's been working there. Lutheran General. So she's been working there for almost 20 years and. And then she works here at a med spa. She's an injector. She's one of our amazing injector. She's been here with us for I guess over four years and I've known Kat for around five years because I work with her some other med spa and then we moved to this med spa here. So that's how I know Kat and she's been always been an amazing human being around people and I just, we just kind of got bonded because, you know, I'm a single mom and she's a single mom and it was just bonded with that in that sense. And you know, she's been telling me about what's going on in her life and how this man is controlling her and it was hard for her to get out because you know she's. That she might lose her job because he's like threatening her. Like why do you do this to this human being? She just wanted to be a great mother to her son. And that kid has always been the number one priority for Kat.
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A
What do you mean by that? I'm curious when you say Jackson, her little boy was her number one priority. How did she evidence that she's always
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C
there for, for him. I know their interaction because I've seen it like so many times. You know, sometimes she'll bring Jackson to our work and you know, my boss is pretty amazing. They just wanted, they're okay with it. I mean he's older anyway and you know, so. Because nobody's watching him. So she always does a lot of things for her son and she talks about him constantly how, you know, like, you know, worried about his future is going to be like she needs to work this much to provide for him. It's just like a lot going on in her life when it comes to that. But also this 10 year relationship with this monster that, that killed her. It just, it's just, you know, I just, I can't even put my head into it.
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A
Maria, you stated that you had a quote, bad feeling. And I don't want anyone to discount that because I have had so many family and friends of murder victims say I had a bad feeling that morning I tried to find him. Her. I called around because I just had this overwhelming dread. I've heard it over and over and over. It's like a sixth sense. What was your bad feeling when it
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C
started off back in March when he almost unlive her? I told her to. I was watching a documentary some somehow that night before I went to work the next day and when this all happened, she told me what happened and you know, I saw all the bruises. She showed it to me. She had some stuff going on in her eye and I said it was healing. She has some cut on her neck. I said, cat, this is really bad and I want you to get out of there now. Like, I was watching this documentary last night and I, I, you know, I saw this woman. They're getting beaten and killed by their spouses and, and whatnot. And I don't want to see you in that sense or on TV or in the news in, in that sense. And she's like, oh, I'm gonna definitely work on that. And I was like, but it's not about working on that. You need to get out now. And then I, and it's just like, so what happened to him? Did they found him? They. And she's like, no, they didn't. And I was like, okay, you're not concerned? Like I'm concerned for that. And call everybo, you know, and look for him because it's not good for you to stay in that house while he's still out there. I don't know what he's doing hiding because you know, he's got a warrant for his arrest.
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A
Joining us in addition to Maria Acapiado is Sabrina Franza. She is investigative reporter, CBS News Chicago. Sabrina, thank you so much for being with us tonight. You heard Maria referring to a March incident and I have the warrant for that. It was awful what he did to her in March and she reported it to police. She even gave a taped statement stating that she was afraid he would kill her. That was back in March. Why is he walking free? Sabrina Franza? Why wasn't he in jail?
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E
We've pressed the Schaumburg Police Department about that because the incident that you're referring to happened mid March and they told us that they went to the house 40 separate times trying to find him. In addition to other locations that he was known to frequent places of work and other neighborhoods surrounding this suburb of Chicago, Schaumburg where this crime happened. What they could not tell us though was when the last time was that they had gone to the house and later found out in the same audio recording that you referenced earlier, the seven hour long audio recording of this gruesome murder that he had been at the house as early as March 22, which as we know is much earlier than this crime actually happened. So it is curious and like I said, we keep pressing the police department to figure out if you went to the house 40 times, if he was there a few weeks prior to this crime happening, how come their paths didn't cross? How come he wasn't found?
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Well, another issue is that he had to have a vehicle. Let me go straight out to veteran defense attorney Franz Borkart, criminal defense attorney, founder of the Borgart Law Firm, former prosecutor professor, Louisiana State University Franz, take off your defense hat just for one moment. I'm trying to figure out how in the he double L this guy who tried to kill her before managed to roam free, including around her house, and not get apprehended. And now she's dead. FRANZ she gave police a taped statement where she predicts her own death. She says, I believe he will try to kill me. And there he was back at her place.
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F
They didn't get him because one, they probably didn't take it as serious as it was and two, they're probably caseload wise, this wasn't a priority to them and now she's dead.
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A
Put him up. Did you actually just say this is not a priority? She's dead? FRANZ how can a terroristic threat which Is threatening to harm someone a felony? I think he tried to kill her before. I don't think that was just an assault as it has been stated. He held a knife on her, he beat her black and blue. She was in the hospital the last time. How can that not be a priority?
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F
So the reality is we're seeing this nationally, that underfunded, overworked police, they're not making these kind of arrests and getting these guys. And it's not a priority because they're doing triage in their jobs. And that is an unfortunate and scary reality that we're seeing across the country. And it is a priority, Nancy. But the unfortunate reality is they're not gonna get charged with any facet of this crime. He will.
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Maria. Okapia. It is referred to as a previous domestic incident. It was much more than an incident, Maria. He nearly killed her. Then he held her at knife point, he beat her horribly to the point she had to be hospitalized. And somehow she managed to drag to a neighbor's house. That's the only way she was saved. And last time, and they did nothing. Now she's dead.
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C
I'm just so mad about that, Nancy, because I feel like nobody taking her seriously and she is serious about this. And I told her, I was like, you know, we can go with you, Cat. Like, literally we can do whatever you need. We're always here for you and I just don't want you to be gone. Like, you know, like I just. This bad feeling that I have is not going away. And you know, and she's like, well, I'm taking precaution and you know, I change all the cameras inside the house and, and you know, like there's some police, I guess, patrolling somehow. And I know, I remember one time she brought in her son after that incident and, and you know, like their interaction. She was just worried about her son if he, if she leaves him in the house. But then there was one time also that she left her son and her son was at. Been calling her constantly saying that there's somebody in the house, like a noise or something. And I, and she's like, well, Jackson, you're just making this up sick. But Cat, you don't understand. Like, send him to the neighborhood, you know, house and stuff. And then when you get done here, you can just pick him up from that. Just, just be, you know, just be cautious because this man, they never found him. You never know.
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Maria.
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The reality is he would terrorize her and attack her. Know full well she had a 12 year old boy that Lived with her. Isn't that true?
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C
Yes, yes.
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A
How did you learn that she was killed?
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C
So it was through my boss sent me this link to a news that they and I unidentified. They did not identify her yet. But then my heart just sunk because when they saw, when I saw the house and her car is on the driveway, it's like, that's Cap. Like then I just start breaking down. Like I can't even, you know, I was just crying. Like I just, I couldn't, you know, it's my heart just like hurting at that moment because I knew it was Cat. That's how I found out.
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A
Did you know immediately that she had been murdered?
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C
Yes, I knew that when they said that she, you know, the woman died from strangulation. And I was like, I already knew this. I just, just, I just don't know how to say it to her. So many times like, you know, this is going to happen. He's gonna finish that job, Cat. They couldn't find him and that was worrisome for me. And always message her and ask her if she's gonna be okay and you know, and watch her back and you know, she has to be very careful. So I don't know what else too. I feel like I didn't do much to keep her safe.
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A
Do you know, Maria, how her son is holding up her little boy?
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C
I really don't know. And I'm pretty sure that he is heartbroken because he loves his mom so much and I know their interaction. That kid, that kid is like a mama's boy. Like he's always like with her constantly. They do things together all the time. Like, like I know he's heartbroken. I'm gonna see him actually on her funeral on Friday.
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A
So Maria, thank you for being with us and speaking on behalf of Kat, Straight out to special guest joining us, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor forensics, Jacksonville State University. He is the author of Blood Bene My Feet on Amazon. He is a star of a hit podcast Body Bags with Jo Scott Morgan. But for our purposes he is a death investigator with over 10,000 death investigations under his belt and counting. Joe Scott, thank you for being with us tonight. This reminds me very much of what was done to at least two of the victims in the Idaho sleighs were where the females faces are horribly disfigured. Did you know Joe Scott that before he says it's party time. Did you hear that? Did you know that that may not be part of your death investigation but this guy says it's party time and tapes Himself on recording a seven hour recording of a torture murder session. What were the extent of Cat's injuries?
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JOE SCOTT it's, you know, the thing about it, Nancy, is when you're trying to take the measure of these kinds of injuries and the involvement that he had had in her life, just think about this. This is not something that happened just in that seven hour period, okay? So you've got injuries that are dating back sometime and you have this layering, and that's one of the difficulties, I think, or one of the complexities of trying to interpret these injuries. But you know, with all of these injuries, relative to like the ligature marks around her neck, you think about the insults to her wrist and her ankles. That goes to restraint and these contusions that are associated with just being absolutely obliterated, Slammed blunt force injury over and over and over and over again. And this is something in the short term she had to endure for that period of time. Here's one other kind of insight, and this dates back from many years ago. I worked a serial, a serial killer that loved, absolutely loved, to bring women to the point of death. And then he would release the ligature at the last moment and they would regain consciousness. They could breathe again. This smacks of this. I'm not saying it's a serialized event. However, it goes to this issue of torture, because can you imagine, just for a second, everybody out there, if you've ever lost your breath, you've ever been punched in the stomach, you can't breathe and you can't catch your breath, and then all of a sudden it comes back and you can, this happened to her repeated numbers of time. Can you imagine, can you imagine the horror and the terror that this poor woman had to live for, live through and endure, not just in the short term, but Nancy, in the weeks, the months, maybe even the years leading up to this?
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A
JO Scott, have you ever studied cases where there is enunciation? Enunciation, the intentional removing of your own or someone else's eyes? There are all sorts of psychological and psychiatric implications of that. But the first time I encountered that was of course in inner city Atlanta, and of course a murder case where the perp gouged the eyes out of the female victim. And I didn't know what that meant psychologically, right, But I knew it was horrendous. That's when I first learned about enunciation. And I find it very, a very disturbing aspect of this case. This guy, no self harm at all. It was all about torturing, disfiguring her, even trying to gouge her eyes out.
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Yeah. And you have to keep in mind, Nancy, with the gouging of the eyes you mentioned in nucleation, this is not though people, I'm sure the people will say, well, you will die, that you can die for that, from that. But this is not like a gunshot wound, the head, Nancy. This is a long, languishing kind of thing. And this goes to an entirely to a separate area here where we think about disfigurement, we think about face covering. How many times have you and I over the years talked about face covering when it comes to, you know, these kind of familial events? And it also goes to something else, this idea of I'm going to break you down to the point where you're going to be completely helpless. I mean, all of us that are blessed enough to be sighted, right, we, we don't think about, you know, every day our senses, you know, where we're, we're seeing things, we're reacting to things. If you can rob, if you can rob of an individual of that, of that, that's the ultimate humiliation is also a torture tool. And that speaks to this guy. He's trying to disfigure her. He's trying to debilitate her. And of course, what does it wound up in a torture related homicide.
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C
Kaylee Goncalves had already moved out of the King Road home, but returned to
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show her best friend Maddie, her new Range Rover. An officer on scene described her face as disfigured.
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Kaylee's fatal injuries included a left lung laceration, a liver laceration, two subdural bleeds, and a stab behind her clavicle which cut her subclavian vein and artery.
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She had signs of sharp force injuries and blunt force injuries and was the only victim to suffer asphyxia injuries.
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Kaylee goncalves was stabbed 34 times. Her facial structure was extremely damaged, leaving her unrecognizable. Due to the severity of the stab wounds, she was identified by methods other than simple visual recognition. Besides defensive marks on her arms, Kaylee had a broken nose, two brain bleeds, and a stab behind her clavicle which severed the subclavian vein and artery.
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A
Just got both Kelly Goncalves and another female victim, I believe Zanna was. They were both horribly, horribly, facially disfigured. In fact, Kelly had her teeth stabbed out. You know what? I'm asking the wrong person. As great of a death investigator as you are, I need a shrink. Dr. Sherry Schwartz is joining us. Forensic psychologist specializing in capital mitigation. And Victim ad@panther mitigation.com she's the one only author of and this is Significant Criminal Behavior and the one I like the best where law and psychology intersect. Issues in legal psychology. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, the disfigurement of the female victim in Kat's case, he beat her horribly all over her body, but specifically her face and tried to gouge the her eyes out. What does that mean?
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D
Well, at its most basic, the eyes are seeing the truth. Right. And they are full of judgment in his perception, most likely. But it strikes me that all of the photos that I've seen of this young woman who's absolutely beautiful, her eyes are captivating and it makes me wonder if he's interested in disfiguring her for pure sadism, which seems to be a major feature of this set of crimes, but also because he loved her eyes or other people complimented her eyes and so he was going to take that away from her. This ups the brutality of the crime. In my opinion. This makes him an extremely dangerous, violent offender. The sexual nature of this crime, these are very rare individuals and it's a shame that nothing was done to prevent this.
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A
To Franz Borkhardt joining us, professor, LSU veteran criminal defense attorney. I assume that you're going to argue some type of mental defense, but let me advise you at the get go, he was on prescription drugs. I don't know if he was really prescribed drugs, but he had popped several of them. And let's just start with the knowledge that voluntary use or of drugs or alcohol is not a defense. Plus, he has got a horrible. Wait, you need to hear this before you comment, Franz. Sabrina Franza, joining us, investigative reporter, CBS News, Chicago. Sabrina, what is his track record? What does his rap sheet reveal?
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E
Well, aside from this felony arrest warrant that was issued after Kat went to the hospital after running out of her own home and only being able to find help by getting in touch with a neighbor that eventually called 911. That warrant was out for his arrest, but he also had three orders of protection that were issued against him, one of them possibly by a family member, but all three by different people. So officers knew that there was a concern about this person. They were warned multiple times. And then of course, now he was taken into custody after this most recent, most gruesome crime. But they were completely aware of his background when Katt went to them and then, of course, when he was eventually arrested.
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A
It's my understanding that the alleged perp, of course, he is innocent until proven guilty. That goes without saying. But let Me stress it again. He had in the past attacked a former wife, family members and many others. They had all taken out TPOs Temporary Protection Orders against him, and yet there he was, sticking his foot in her kitchen window, in other words, getting in her house. Do we have any idea how many protection orders have been filled, filed against him?
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E
We know of three from three different people, which creates, in our eyes, a trend which is worth paying attention to, especially when somebody's going to the hospital and then filing a felony complaint against somebody saying as you mentioned earlier on tape, in her tape testimony, that she thought that her ex boyfriend was going to come back and kill her in that first incident. She was asked in her testimony to write a suicide note, which she actually started to write based on what we're seeing from court documents, before she was able to get out of the house, the same house that her 12 year old son was sleeping in, she tried to wake him up while this attack was happening, was unsuccessful, and then eventually ran out of the house to seek help from a neighbor. So all of these things combined should have raised these huge alarm bells. And it just adds to how tragic this case is.
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C
Nancy
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Motkey faced numerous, numerous, let me say, brushes with the law. Several family members, even an ex wife, another ex partner, had taken out orders of protection against him. He, at the time of Kat's murder, he had an active warrant out for a domestic battery against her the previous month. Yet there he was, walking free. Okay, hold on, Franz, I'm hearing in my ear. We are now being joined again by Marie Pereira, domestic violence expert, certified advocate and criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, registered nurse. Marie, thank you for being with us. Does it ever end? How many protective orders do we need to take out on one walking crime wave? And now this beautiful mother is dead and her son was at home during one of the attacks where he tried to force her to write her own suicide note. It's incomprehensible.
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H
I think it's disgusting given all the facts that you provided that we didn't really have Nancy. So thank you for that. The police were well aware of the urgency of the situation. So when Franz said earlier it was a triage, even if it was a triage, she should have been at the top because of all you just described here, the priority orders from other people, the fact that he had her try to write a suicide note, the extent of her injuries, the fact that they didn't search for him and they're claiming they went to look for him 40 times. How about you give her A panic button. All right, I understand they have other people who are being threatened. Domestic violence is all about control, desperation on the part of the abuser. And they can't be everywhere at the same time. But I had a situation like that in my personal life. It wasn't me, but it was a very close family member who was being taunted by someone who hurt her, stole her car, threatened to kill her, and yes, they can't be everywhere, but they gave her a panic button. She lived with me. I had a panic button because we knew he'd be back. How about a panic button, people?
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A
You know what? Tell it, Marie. Tell it. I remember the first time. This was when I was a brand new prosecutor. This would have been in about, oh, gosh, around the time of the Olympics in Atlanta. And we were so proud because we got funding from Bell south to give domestic violence victims a cell phone. And at that time, they were about this big. I mean, they look like a walkie talkie. And we were so happy. And at the Battered Women's center, where I volunteered at night, we could give them to the women to call 91 1. But your idea is much better. Like the help me. I've fallen and I can't get up.
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H
But what's wrong with. It wasn't an idea.
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A
I'm just sick, Marie. I'm sick.
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H
It happened. I was home. My family member was home. We knew he was coming back. The moment we heard a noise in the driveway, we were all scared, right? We pressed the panic button. It's that simple. They gave it to us. This was in Franklin Square, New York, a few years ago. They caught him. He tried to run away, but by the time that he ran away, they caught him. And we had the panic button, if she had one. All of what happened took seven hours. It is disgusting that something like this happened in 2026.
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A
You know, another thing, Maria Pereira. Maria, joining us tonight out of la, domestic violence expert. She's a lawyer, a former prosecutor, and a registered nurse. You know, another thing I hate is that we call it domestic abuse. Like, it's warm and cozy like a Hallmark movie. When I think of domestic, I think of domicile, which is, you know, as a lawyer, is your home where you live. It makes you think of good smells in the kitchen and the family at the supper table. It's really putting perfume on the pig. Seven hours, Marie.
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H
And you know what? Even if they had served him with the order of protection, he probably would not have been kept in prison. They probably would have released him in Order of protection. Nancy works when the person gives a damn about their own life, but when they don't care, it's not a deterrence because they don't give a damn about what happens to them. So he gouged her eyes out. You know why? Because she found herself another man. She moved on. And that's the most dangerous time for victims, when they decide they've had enough. Look at him. Look at her. Her new man was probably much flier than him. And he knew that it was it. The jig was up, the threats, the everything. She was leaving him. And that's what happened. This is why the police should have given her a panic. But. So the moment that loser stepped in her house, they would have pulled up and protected her. It was that easy.
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A
Okay, Franz Borgarts, I don't know how you're going to follow Marie Pereira, but have at it and I will just give you a gimme at the get go. These are allegations, and he remains innocent until he is proven guilty before a court of law and a jury of his peers. But another caveat, Borgarts, is that he has the presumption of innocence the rest of that sentence unless and until the state pierces that presumption with evidence proving him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Okay? So that presumption can be pierced, and I predict it will be pierced. So have at it.
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F
So I would lean into the fact that he did it, that he had a mental health issue, and that, as Marie suggested strongly, the system failed. Not only her, but him. He needed help. He needed assistance. He never got it. He snapped and killed her. Now, that's assuming he lets me use that defense, Nancy. He can say snap. I'm not admitting that.
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A
Did you just say snap? Let me see. Burkhart, did you say snap? Because you know that's not real. That is a show. That's a show on oxygen. Snap. I snap. Snap is not a defense. Okay? Don't get up in front of a jury. I'm just trying to help you out here and say they snap. Because snap is not a defense. And even if it was, he taped it for seven hours. How is that a snap?
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F
I'm not saying it's going to work. I'm going to say that if I can, if I have the mental health. If I have the mental health argument, I'm going to lean into anything I can lean into to get this guy a lesser conviction, which is his saving grace. We can agree to disagree on the defense, but this guy's win. If there is any kind of win at all for this guy is something lesser than the top charge.
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A
Okay, first degree murder, three counts ag crim, sex assault. Just off the top of my head, wild guess. Chicago does not have the death penalty. Just a wild crazy guess. So the most he's ever going to get is life behind bars. Yet you think you can get him a lesser offense based on what? He grabbed somebody else's prescription meds and gulped him down.
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F
I think we've already discussed that he has a mental health history. I think we've already discussed that the system failed her, that the system failed her and failed him. That would be the defense. I'm not saying it's going to work. But look, I don't choose the car.
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A
How was he failed? He has no known mental.
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H
You know what?
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A
Let's, let's go to Sabrina. Sabrina Franza is joining us, investigative reporter, CBS News. All I know is he gulped down a bunch of pills. I know nothing about a mental health defense.
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E
Actually, court documents don't really say anything about a mental health issue here. What it does talk about is that he appeared intoxicated when he was found by police after they showed up two cats home. And that he claimed that he had ingested two other types of drugs, pills that it's unclear whether or not he should have had or not. And then he was taken to the hospital for an evaluation after that. They don't say anything about his condition, but he was released from the hospital and then at that point was officially taken into custody and then later charged. But based on our reading of court documents, it does not mention anything about any sort of mental health history.
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A
Guys, you heard it from Sabrina Franza joining us from cbs. Okay, Franz Burkhardt. There you go. You tried to slip that in on me that we've talked about as mental health defense. No, we didn't. You did.
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F
I'm certainly going to have him evaluated. And shocker, he's going to have a mental health issue. He may be the most violent, vile
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A
human being in the world.
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F
I would bet, I would bet dollars to donuts, Nancy, that he has a mental health issue.
- [38:07]
A
I just bet you would. Dave Mack, what have I missed regarding her injuries? Dave Mack, Crime stories, investigative reporter what have I missed? Because I want to circle back to Joe Scott Morgan on these injuries.
- [38:19]
B
On the tape, you could hear her screaming and pleading for Mikey to not to get off of her and to not put handcuffs on her. So we're going to have injuries around the wrist. The assault escalated as he used duct tape to restrain Torbeck. There Might be markings from that sexually assaulted during the entire attack. The recording captured everything Nancy and it was shocking beyond the pale to hear her pleading for her life. The injuries that Joe Scott Morgan can break down leading up to and including Nancy, her death.
- [38:58]
A
Franz Borgardt how are you going to keep that tape out of evidence? Because you actually hear her take her last breaths. She's gasping.
- [39:13]
F
I don't think that. I don't think I can keep the tape out of evidence. That's the problem any better than I can keep the prior incident with her out. I might be able to keep her, his prior non victim related incidents with other family members out. But I think the tape comes in and if I'm asked how I'm going to address it is I'm leaning into the fact that this is clearly the antics and actions of a sick mentally ill human being.
- [39:40]
A
Sick I agree with, but not mentally ill. Dr. Sherry Schwartz why did he tape seven hours of torture, sex, assault, beating and murdering Cat? Why tape it and keep it in his pocket next to his heart?
- [39:59]
D
Nancy the only logical explanation for that is that he wanted to revisit the pain and suffering that he had caused Kat. Somebody that he would probably proclaim to have loved at least at some point in his life. The reason that individuals memorialize and then keep trophies of their violent crimes is because they want evidence that it happened even though it's counter to their best legal interest. Arguably psychologically, this shows someone who is very dangerous and as you pointed out, disturbed, but not necessarily mentally ill, especially not in a mitigating way. So I think in this situation he wanted to be able to look over his handiwork and pat himself on the back.
- [40:46]
A
What do you make from Burkhardt's claim of mental illness? I mean, he knew enough to outsmart the police for over a month. To Dr. Sherry Schwartz, that's Borkhardt's again. As handsome as he is, what do you make of Bortha's claims of mental illness? What mental illness?
- [41:05]
D
Well, while he clearly behaved in a way that is not normal. Right. That anybody can see that you don't need a degree in psychology. The bottom line here is that this is not. Here's how I'll put it. Cognitive distortions fueled by what appears to be his narcissistic rage are not the same as psychosis and delusional beliefs based on psychosis. This is somebody who was able to plan, carry out attacks, elude capture by the police, break into her home again and torture and sexually assault her on recording over a Period of seven hours. This is not somebody who is seriously mentally ill. I think we get that perception because of the brutality of the behavior and the shocking aspects of the behavior. But this is somebody whose mental health profile is likely to show not very mitigating personality disorders, including his history of antisocial behavior.
- [42:05]
A
JO Scott Morgan, if you would please capsulize what was done to this nurse, this mother of a 12 year old little boy who lived with her. He was a mama's boy. She was already working to save money for his College and he's 12 years old. Three jobs, Joe Scott three jobs to support that boy.
- [42:31]
G
I got to tell you, Nancy, one of the things that really, and going to Doc's comment just a second ago ago, it seems as though that in all cases where we have this over the top brutality, doesn't it seem that the reaction of the courts and particularly to our colleagues and friends in the defense community, is that the more egregious the event is, it equates to some kind of excuse for the level of brutality? Right. So the more brutal you are, that's indicative of the idea that, well, you, you've got a problem here that is some kind of psychopathology. Some people, Nancy, are just absolutely evil, okay? There's no other way to explain it. When you think about her injuries, and it's not just the injuries themselves, and I really want to emphasize this, it's about the period of time that elapsed and the idea, you know, this is higher thinking because he's going through this and all the while, you know, giving her her life and then taking it back, giving her life and taking back, I would imagine at some point, Tom, you get to the point where you've been brutalized like she was by bludgeoning, by this asphyxial event with a ligature that's wrapped around your neck, it's probably loosened and then I'm going to kill you. I'm going to continue to, you know, commit sexual assault, these sorts of things. And you know, the idea of having her write this note out, you just think about that and couple that with all of this trauma. That by the way, when this goes to court, it'll be on display for everybody to see. They'll see what he did to this beautiful woman. They'll see the layers of hemorrhage that she had in her neck. They'll see the contusions, all of her.
- [44:21]
A
SCOTT I wish that I could rely on that, but I saw what happened with O.J. simpson and that jury saw all of the beatings and pictures of them that Nicole Brown suffered. They saw it and they still let him walk. Final word to you, Marie Pereira. I'm disgusted as well.
- [44:46]
H
An order of protection is nothing but a piece of paper. If you give it to someone who doesn't give a damn about going to prison, someone who was committing suicide after the act, right? It doesn't mean a thing, just a piece of paper. Paper order of protections cannot save lives. Police save lives. Panic buttons save lives. Because that guy didn't give a damn about his life. And there's nothing wrong with him mentally. Stop with the oh, he was mentally ill, he was jealous, he was a loser. She was leaving him. It's that simple. So he cut up her face, gouge out her eyes so that nobody else would get her. And he had planned to kill himself anyway. And I'm sorry to say it. Sorry, it didn't work.
- [45:26]
A
If you know or think you know anything regarding Kat's brutal murder, Please call Schomburg PD. 847-882-3534. We remember American hero Deputy sheriff Brett Harris. Riverside County Sheriff's just 26, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind his young and beautiful wife, Maria. American hero Sheriff Brett Harris. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you, Nancy Grace signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend. This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.