REX HEUERMANN'S SECRET COMMUNICATIONS

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: REX HEUERMANN'S SECRET COMMUNICATIONS
Original Air Date: May 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, Nancy Grace and her panel of experts dissect the latest bombshell developments in the Long Island Serial Killer (LISK) case. The main focus lies on the shocking secret communications and digital footprint of Rex Heuermann, his recent guilty plea, what it reveals—and conceals—about his crimes, and the controversial involvement of his family in a new reality show. The episode unravels the chilling details of Heuermann’s methods, the trauma experienced by the victims and their families, and the ongoing issues of justice, complicity, and sensationalism in the aftermath.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Guilty Plea and Its Aftermath

• Rex Heuermann, accused Long Island Serial Killer, changed his plea to guilty, creating uproar in the courtroom. (07:20)

• With no trial, many facts remain shrouded. Unlike Idaho’s Brian Kohberger, whose case might have exposed more through trial, Heuermann’s jurisdiction lacks the death penalty. (05:38)

  "Just as we saw in the Idaho case...like in Kohberger, we will never really know the facts because there is no trial."
  — Nancy Grace, (05:38)

2. Heuermann's Communications and Digital Trail

• Used multiple fake names (e.g., Andrew Roberts, Thomas Hawke) and burner phones, contacting sex workers over 500 times. (02:49)

• Conducted over 100 internet searches about the investigation, serial killers, and disturbing pornographic content depicting torture and murder. (17:19)

• Maintained a chilling "Hunt and Kill Planning Document" and hoarded over 100,000 incriminating photos and digital mementos.

• His digital sloppiness ultimately exposed him, despite efforts at secrecy, with the planning document recovered from his computer. (56:15)

  "What’s amazing is this guy took all these precautions, yet still, this was all sitting on his computer."
  — Josh Zieman, (56:15)

3. Number and Nature of the Victims

• Over 56 sex workers, with more victims feared but not yet identified. (02:49, 09:25)
• Many victims were kept alive for days, tortured, and murdered in Heuermann’s basement while his wife was away. Some evidence points to even more undiscovered victims on the beach. (09:18, 11:08)
• Law enforcement believes others are still missing:

  "There are still bodies on that beach. There are still bodies in Suffolk County."
  — Ray Tierney, Suffolk County DA, (04:53)

4. Role and Complicity of Asa Ellerup and Family

• Asa Ellerup (Heuermann's wife) and daughter Victoria are participating in a reality/docuseries “Gilgo Beach Killer: House of Secrets,” reportedly profiting around $1 million (though payment is framed as "licensing fees" to skirt Son of Sam laws). (32:18, 37:09)
• Intense scrutiny and skepticism about Asa’s claim of ignorance regarding the murders, especially given circumstantial evidence of her awareness and physical traces linking her to the victims. (29:01–41:29)
• Civil lawsuits filed by victims’ families, including one by the son of Valerie Mack, seeking to prevent Heuermann’s family from profiting off the crimes. (42:57)

5. Expert Explanations and Law Enforcement Challenges

• Cadaver Dogs: While essential in finding victims so far, limitations exist due to the area’s vastness and terrain, hindering recovery of all remains. (12:35, 18:35)

• Heuermann’s “Double Life”: Experts discuss how high-functioning sociopaths can convincingly hide monstrous crimes behind a "normal" persona. (28:26–36:04)

• Planning and Escalation: Heuermann meticulously followed detailed lists—improving techniques for abduction, murder, body disposal, and evidence destruction. (50:55)

• Chilling Evidence: Lists included instructions like “remove hands and head,” “destroy books/computer files,” and “use heavy rope for neck.” Electric clips found, theorized to be used in torture. (50:55–52:03)

  “Thinking about the context...What’s your purpose for doing that, Rex? To secure these individuals so he could work out these sick fantasies.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, (51:11)

6. The Sensationalization and Ethical Dilemmas

• Exploitation of the case for entertainment (reality shows, documentaries) raises questions about justice, morality, and secondary victimization.

• The Son of Sam laws are circumvented by paying licensing fees for exclusive photos, not direct interview payments. (37:09)

  “It’s a way that we get around it...And it’s gross. And you’re absolutely right.”
  — Josh Zieman, (37:09)

7. Victims’ Families and Enduring Trauma

• Emotional devastation for families, many of whom spent years believing loved ones had abandoned them.

• Ongoing lawsuits seek not only compensation but possibly additional revelations about what really happened.

• Experts urge families to seek support groups and counseling to cope with the unthinkable trauma. (62:05–63:25)

• Repeated concern that history will remember the killer’s name, not the victims.

  “The names of these victims will be forgotten. And I hate to say that—it’s very callous, but his name will trump everything else.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, (45:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Heuermann’s Persona:
  "This defendant walked among us play acting as a normal suburban dad, when in reality all along he was obsessively targeting innocent women for death."
  — Ray Tierney (Suffolk Co. DA), (27:10)

• On the Area Where Victims are Found:
  "By day, it’s a beautiful recreational area. At night, it’s a haunting, haunting, dark, desolate area.”
  — Mike Gould, (11:08)

• On Asa Ellerup’s Claims of Ignorance:
  “You want to tell me Asa Ellerup never noticed anything in the basement where women were stripped, raped, tortured, and murdered? No way.”
  — Nancy Grace, (40:11)

• On the Morality of Media Profit:
  “Blood money. How do you think that makes the families of these dead women feel?”
  — Nancy Grace, (29:25)

• On Heuermann’s Notebooks & Evidence:
  “Now that son and all the victims families have to think about how tightly ropes were cinched around their mother's neck.”
  — Nancy Grace, (50:55)

• On the Hidden Threat:
  "He could be at your next dinner party...That’s what’s the most troubling to me, is you never know the evil that lurks in anybody’s mind."
  — Mike Gould, (58:17)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp (MM:SS) | |-----------------------------------------------------|-----------------------| | Heuermann’s digital life and burner phones | 02:49—04:53 | | Court appearance, guilty plea, smirking | 07:20—09:18 | | Law enforcement on the search and serial killer profile | 11:08—12:35 | | Detailed coverage of Asa Ellerup and reality show | 29:01—37:09 | | Discussion of evidence, planning, and torture lists | 50:55—53:08 | | Psychological effects and trauma to victims’ families| 62:05—63:25 |

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Final Thoughts and Call to Justice

The episode closes with a somber contemplation of justice—how, even with a guilty plea, many truths will never be told in open court, and how the pain and questions for the victims’ families may never be fully resolved. Nancy Grace issues a call to action for society to remember the victims, not just the killer, and to support those left behind as the case continues to unfold.

"It's not over yet. And we wait as justice unfolds."
— Nancy Grace, (63:25)

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Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

Disturbing sick searches on the Gilgo beach serial killer's phone. 500 chilling texts emerge. Will it never end with the Long island serial killer Rex Heuerman? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. The Long island serial killer was a, quote, sexual sadistic who allegedly used fake names and burner phones to reach sex workers over 500 times. According to prosecutors. Rex Heerman, age 63, reportedly created a Tinder account and used fake names to incessantly contact sex workers before he was finally taken into custody. 2023 he used aliases like Andrew Roberts, Thomas Hawke. Also searches emerge on his phone including why hasn't the Long island serial killer been caught? Or map of all known serial killers or cops. Launch Gilgo beach homicide investigation task force. Chilling Internet searches and over 500 damning texts. He was reaching out to at least 56 sex workers and to massage parlors, massage parlors to a total of over 300 times plus all the text to sex workers. What do we know about the case? Sightings of the victims, phone calls from the victims, train rides by the victims, victims that left and never came back. Keeping a victim alive for days on end so he could play with him. There are going to be more victims uncovered of the Long island serial killer Rex Heuermann.

[Ray Tierney (Suffolk County District Attorney)]

The calm, serene, almost grandfatherly image that Rex Heumann portrayed since his arrest was a lie and quite frankly, an insult to both law enforcement. But more importantly, the families that had to endure that during every court appearance over the last two and a half years. Today he was exposed for exactly what he is, a sadistic, soulless, murderous monster. This case closes and another one opens. You know, there are still, you know, bodies on that beach. There are still bodies in Suffolk County. There's no rest for the weary. We are going to continue to work with our partners and to try to obtain closure for as many families as

[Nancy Grace]

we can that the police commissioner and the Suffolk county district attorney speaking, unmasked, finally in court in lieu of a long trial, a guilty plea. But just as we saw in the Idaho case, the Idaho 4, 4 beautiful University of Idaho students murdered, generally speaking, in their sleep by one person, Brian Kohberger. Once again, like in Kohberger, we will never really know the facts because there is no trial. Now, unlike Idaho where the death penalty does exist, in Rex Heuerman's jurisdiction, you can kill as many people as you want and there is no death penalty. What does this mean for his wife's reality show? That's certainly something to ponder. Straight out to Crime Stories, investigative reporter Dave Mack. Dave Mack, a Long island serial killer. The Long island serial killer Rex Heuerman finally snared in court.

[Ad Voice / Announcer]

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[Nancy Grace]

Okay, I'm a little more interested tonight. Dave Mack in the Guilty please. A sudden change of plea throws the courtroom in an uproar. Rex Heuermann, the admitted Long island serial killer, pleads guilty. In addition to Dave Mack, crime Stories investigative reporter. Joining us also tonight, Josh Zieman, investigative journalist, documentary film director. He's been on the case from the very beginning and he is the director of the Killing Season. It's a docu series that helped shed new light on on the Gilgo beach murders. Josh, thank you for being with us. Describe what happened in court.

[Josh Zeman]

Well, Nancy, it was a tense moment for sure. Everybody waiting to see if Rex would actually plead. And he did eight separate times to these women. The question is while he was admitting these crimes, he never once turned back to look at the families. He was smirking. And the question is why was he smirking? Was he smirking because he was forced to admit what he'd done or because he knew there were other victims out there that he was getting away with?

[Nancy Grace]

You know, Josh, that is certainly a scary thought, scaring even me who have actually prosecuted serial killers before, smirking. You know, I thought he was smirking at the victims families or at the justice system itself. But you again have shed a whole new light on this. Is he smirking because he knows there are other murder victims, other defenseless women that he stripped, tortured and murdered, keeping them alive in his dungeon basement for days and days on end when his wife would be out of town? We think days. And you believe there is a chance that he's smirking because he knows there are other victims out there that haven't been found?

[Josh Zeman]

Absolutely. For sure. It's tragic.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm curious. Why do you say that?

[Josh Zeman]

Because we know the remains that were deposited on Ocean Parkway. There's other folks. There's Asian Doe Carmen Vargas. There's numerous folks out there who. And if you heard the district attorney say it himself, you know there are other bodies on that beach. And I was there at the press conference. He says sometimes it doesn't matter what I think. It matters what I can prove. And so his next goal is to try and prove it, to try and find these other victims, identify some of them, and again, bring Rex to justice for these victims. Tragic.

[Nancy Grace]

Mike Gould joining us, former Nassau county lieutenant, founding member of the NYPD K9 unit. He's led multiple investigations into serial killers, including the Gilgo beach killer on Long Island. Also Secret Service, two presidents. Mike, thank you for being with us. That has got to put a shiver down your spine thinking that there are other victims. I mean, the guy was just in court in the last hours pleading guilty to multiple murders. And these women weren't just, bam, you're dead. They were kidnapped, they were stripped, they were bound, they were tortured for days on end while his wife was away in his underground basement dungeon, and then ultimately murdered. They went through hell. And I wonder, I wonder, Mike, were they thinking of their children they would never see again? It's excruciating for me. I hate to even imagine what they went through. And now the specter brought up by Josh Zeman. And he's not wrong. Of other women out there somewhere under the sand.

[Mike Gould (Former Nassau County Lieutenant, NYPD K9 Unit)]

Yeah, Nancy, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, though, Rex Uhman is not the only serial killer. This is a very unique area. It's. I'm intimately familiar with. I patrolled the area for almost seven years with police dogs. I trained police dogs. By daytime, it's a beautiful recreational area. At night, it's a haunting, haunting, dark, desolate area. And its proximity to JFK airport. Rex Uhman literally live 15 minute drive from here, from the locations where the bodies were. So it's a haunting place. There's no doubt there's other bodies out there. The bodies have been being dispersed out there since the 80s during the mafia gang wars. So it's just a question of actually locating. And of course, frankly, this is a very desolate area. It's. Finding bodies is like finding a needle in a haystack.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, this is something I don't understand. You are a founding member of nypd, and I speak very highly of the nypd. Like every LE law enforcement agency, it's got its Problems and its bad apples. But you are the pinnacle nypd. That's who all the other PDS look up to. Right? It's very hard for me to believe that a canine or a team of canines cannot find all the dead bodies. Cadaver dogs. That's what I'm talking about.

[Mike Gould (Former Nassau County Lieutenant, NYPD K9 Unit)]

100%. This. This is what cracked this case. The Suffolk County Police Department cadaver dog found the first victim. Without that, there would be no DNA evidence. Without that, obviously there was great work by all the DNA invest, all of those things. But without the bodies, you have a very difficult case to prove. So dogs are considered in court as scientific instruments to overcome warrantless searches. So there's nothing like a dog to find odorless microscopic skin cells that are dispersed. But again, this is a big area, Nancy. It's different terrain, there's sand, there's a lot of vegetation. So again, it's not a question of if other bodies will be found. And I think the DA spoke to this. It's just a matter of when. It's nothing new to us New York that this has been. You go from high, congested, highly trafficked, illuminated areas. You drive 10 minutes, 15 minutes from Kennedy Airport or Rex Huberman's house and you. It's creepy. It's creepy. I used to park my police car, turn the lights out, and you could see five miles in either direction of any cars coming or going. So guess what? If the police can do that, the bad guys can do the exact same thing. There's no curves and there's a lot of places to sneak and hide. So, yeah, it's a creepy, haunting place. And it's been that way for many, many.

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[Parent / Camper]

with my mom and dad living in Orange county, when we bring my five and seven year old to visit, we are sometimes in for a two hour drive that could feel like 10.

[Camper / Parent]

Oh, as an avid camper, I know all about this. We'll pack up the RV and know this is either going to be the trip of a lifetime or a complete disaster.

[Parent / Camper]

Which is why we load up the iPads with Lingokids before we even pull out of the driveway.

[Camper / Parent]

It's what dreams are made of. Lingokids keeps kids engaged and quiet with over 4000 interactive games, songs and shows that kids simply cannot get enough of.

[Parent / Camper]

You can pack whatever you think you'll need, but Lingokids is the only entertainment you'll need for a stress free car ride.

[Camper / Parent]

Or really any ride. Plane, train, hovercraft, whatever.

[Parent / Camper]

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[Parent / Camper]

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The burner phones were always kept close to a phone registered in Heuerman's real name. He always kept them close to him. Heuermann also conducting thousands of porn related searches using a Gmail account. That account, according to prosecutors, was used for more than 100 searches related to the Gilgo beach serial killings. He Also looked up horribly violent pornography and content, quote, I'm reading straight out of the court filings related to binding torture, rape snuff videos where the person's killed, crying, bruised, impaled women and or girls.

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Ugh.

[Nancy Grace]

This is the devil. It's very clear from what the Suffolk County District Attorney, Ray Tierney said that he believes there are other bodies on this beach. Why can't the cadaver dogs find them?

[Mike Gould (Former Nassau County Lieutenant, NYPD K9 Unit)]

They can. They have the capability of doing. First of all, there's not a lot of cadaver dogs because there's not a great need for them. So there's not a lot of them, but they certainly could. But. And there's volunteer organizations that train cadaver dogs all over the country. So yeah, it's just ripe. And they are continuing searching. There was police activity out there the other night. I don't know specifically for what reason. So yeah, the search is on. It's never going to end. And as I said, it's. It's nothing new as you can. As I said, Rex lived 15, 20 minutes. You drive over a bridge and, and you go from Long island to a desolate. You don't have to drive a body upstate New York. You don't have to drive two or three hours like in Goodfellas to dump a body upstate New York, when you can literally drive 10 minutes from Queens, Brooklyn and you're in this. It's like an alternate universe out there. No lights, no stores, very little police activity. Police don't patrol there because there's nothing out there. In the winter. By day, again, it's a beautiful recreational area. By night, there's nothing out there. And it continues that way today. I was just down there the other night at one o' clock in the morning and it's, it's eerie. There's nothing. There's no rescue workers. I mean, if you call 911, you know, there's a 15 or 20 minute response time, minimally because they got to go over bridges, three miles of bridges to get to this barren beach area control room.

[Nancy Grace]

I want to see the victims faces and I want to see them close up. Not a distant shot of all of them in a group. I want to see their faces one by one. Look at them. They begged for their lives. They begged to go back to their children. They promised they wouldn't tell. They promised they wouldn't call police. Instead, they were stripped, bound, tortured, raped, murdered, and their bodies buried along a lonely stretch of beach. And Rex Heuermann stands in court smirking. Why?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Why?

[Nancy Grace]

Because they Died and he lives because he's now going to be treated like the teacher's pet by the FBI profilers. Yeah, that's right. There are going to be many, many interviews by the FBI profiling him, this piece of crap. And I guarantee you one day he'll take part in his own documentary and there will be money made off of it. It's happening. Put money on it. Just got Morgan joining me. Professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of bestseller Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is the star of a hit podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. But for my purposes tonight, he is a death investigator. A very experienced veteran death investigator with over 10,000 death scenes of all sorts under his belt. Over 10,000. I first met him when I was a prosecutor at inner city Atlanta, and he was working for the medical examiner's office at that time. That's a long time ago, Joe Scott. And you haven't let up. You, like me, like Gould, like Zeeman, have walked the beach. Do you concur with Gould's comments? Explain.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Absolutely. And let me tell you why. You know, obviously you can hear my voice. I'm from the south and, you know, we think about the rural areas down here. You get up into this region and you leave what they refer to as the city. When you leave the city and you're heading out, you know, as Mr. Gould had mentioned just a moment ago, you get there, this is rural. This is what they consider going to the country. And it's not. It's not an unfair description because it does go dark really, really quickly. And here's the thing. My good buddy, Sergeant Joe Jack Loan, he took me to the location where the Gilgo bodies were actually found. And one of the things that I came away from, from that visit to that location was the fact that one side of the roadway, you've got this marshy area. It. It is prohibitive for anybody to go into there. You've got briars and brambles and everything else on that side. And the other side, you can hear the waves crashing and you can't see your hand in front of your face out there at night. Would not surprise me at all if there were more. He's saying at the beach. Tyranny is, I'm thinking, probably along the sound side over there where you can quickly deposit the bodies in that location and nobody's going to be any the wiser out there. I think that probably when he did this, he was hoping for something maybe like tidal changes that are going to sweep the bodies out. It's an easy dump to do this. He can pull them out of this avalanche, which, by the way, they had recovered down in South Carolina, and they would just be gone. They would vanish and. Right, right, he was to a certain degree, but that. Yet there they remained. And to Mr. Ghoul's comment, those dogs are heroes, you know, because they went out there, they took those dogs out there and they actually found these remains. Is it possible they could go out there and find more? Yeah, I think that there can, because this is an extensive area, Nancy. It would take so much manpower to get out there and cover every square inch of this area or every square mile. They haven't even scratched the surface yet. And you have to be purpose.

[Nancy Grace]

Hey, look, Joe Scott. Look, look, look, look, look. This is video obtained by abc7. Look at him. I just want the viewers to know what they're seeing. Joe Scott. There he is. And I know exactly where he is. Nobody needs to tell me. He's leaving his office. See, he's got his messenger bag over his shoulder. He's leaving his office, which was a stone's throw to Penn Station, and there he would catch the pen. I've been there many, many times to imagine this demon walking amongst all the ladies, catching trains at Penn Station, going straight out to Long island to commit murders. There he goes. He truly is a demon walking among us. That is what the DA said. Sorry to interrupt. Joe Scott. Keep going. I just wanted the viewers to know what they were seeing.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah. And when I think about who else he could have victimized, how many more are there? I think there's a high probability that there are these bodies. But, Nancy, if we could just return to the victims specifically, just for a second, this allocution. Let me just put it to you this way is lacking, okay? Because you know, what we got out of him, and, yeah, I mean, it confirms some things. We got him saying strangulation, strangulation, strangulation, strangulation. But there's no more detail there. I'm very disappointed that his feet were not held to the fire. You know, you had mentioned his torture chamber, which I think that this location was. Josh has talked about how these people, these poor victims, were kept alive down there, and yet there's no more detail about what he did. I don't know that people fully appreciate the depth and breadth of how evil he is. He is demonic, in my opinion, with what he did to these poor souls. And we will never know that information. All I have to do, I look back at the template of the way Kansas handled btk and we don't have that here. It's left wanting, to say the very least. And I think the families need to understand that. I think the courts need to understand that. But yet here he is. He's going to get three hots and a cot. And oh, by the way. Yeah. The boys from the FBI are going to come down, they're going to sit with him and they're going to interview him extensively. Right. And he is going to hold a level of celebrity and that is probably one of the most vomit inducing things I can think of relative to this monster. Nancy.

[Ray Tierney (Suffolk County District Attorney)]

This defendant walked among us play acting as a normal suburban dad, when in reality all along he was obsessively targeting innocent women for death. He identified these women, lured them into Nassau county, murdered them and left their bodies in Suffolk County. He thought that by killing them he could silence them forever and get away with murder. But he was wrong. Because it was these victims, these women, who refused to stay silent.

[Nancy Grace]

In the last days, the Long island serial killer in court snared, admitting yes, he is the Long island serial killer. But he's not the only one on the hot seat tonight. The question everyone keeps asking is how could you not know. The Gilgo 4 was one of America's longest serial killer cold cases? After 13 years, this bombshell drops Rex

[Ray Tierney (Suffolk County District Attorney)]

Huberman, architect, father, husband.

[Mike Gould (Former Nassau County Lieutenant, NYPD K9 Unit)]

He basically was the person that lived next door.

[Nancy Grace]

He was a monster living a double life. One person saying this, one person saying that. But my memory says this.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

There's so much evidence against you, I don't even believe you. And you're my best friend. Convince me. Give me something. Did you do it? Rex Heuerman is insists through his lawyer that he's innocent.

[Nancy Grace]

Is it possible that no family ever suspected that something was off about this guy?

[Mike Gould (Former Nassau County Lieutenant, NYPD K9 Unit)]

The most mysterious figure is Rex's wife.

[Nancy Grace]

The investigator says to me, have you heard about the murders on Gilgo Beach? I've heard of them.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

The idea that the wife didn't know anything is hard to believe.

[Nancy Grace]

Does everybody really believe everything they hear?

[Ad Voice / Announcer]

Hello.

[Nancy Grace]

How you doing? I'm doing great now that I've got you on the phone. How ironic that ASA Ellera, the wife of the Long island serial killer, says, does everybody believe everything they hear? Woman, what were you deaf, dumb and blind? You couldn't see, you couldn't hear, you couldn't speak of the evil happening in your basement, often while you're at home. BS on it. BS on you, woman. That's from the Gilgo Beach Killer. House of secrets. Their official trailer. The family of Rex Heuerman getting a purported $1 million to participate in that special documentary. Blood money. Blood money. How do you think that makes the families of these dead women feel? These women kidnapped, tortured, raped, murdered, their bodies sometimes dismembered and disposed of. How do they feel about his wife getting a cool million? It skeeves me out totally. I feel filthy and nauseous all at the same time just watching the trailer. Dave Mack. What?

[Ad Voice / Announcer]

Nancy, it's one of those shocking things that just pushes you over the edge that Asa Ellera is the ex wife of Rex Schuerman being featured and getting paid for this multi part documentary. Now, Nancy, they're adding, adding new episodes to this, this show. The docu series is called, you know, the Gilgo Beach Killer House of Secrets. But now that the secrets are out, Asa Ellerup is going to be adding episodes. But Nancy claiming all along the family knew nothing. In court, Asa Ellerup is sitting behind Rex and she's seemingly shocked. She's sitting on the edge of the seat. She's gripping the seat with her hand. You can see the knuckles. And it's like she's acting like she just can't believe what she's hearing. And there's a suggestion that she didn't believe any of it until he, you know, said he did it. But Nancy, I'm with you. Like many, how can you live in this house? Which by the way, when you look at the home that Rex Heuerman and his family lived in, his home from his childhood, it looks like the Munster's home compared to the other houses on the street. It looks like evil exists in this house. She's living there with this man. Well, you know, decades.

[Nancy Grace]

You know what, Dave Mack? If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. So yes, it is the home of the Munsters, including Asa Ellerup and Rex Heuermann. This from our friends at ABC7 joining us in addition to Dave Mack, Josh Zieman, investigative journalist and director of the Killing season, shining a new light on the Gilgo beach murders. Tell me about Asa Ellerup in court and what, if anything, you know about her documentary. Okay, that's total BS Documentary series My Rear End. What can you tell me? Tell us about her show where she's getting a purported million dollars and now additional episodes. I mean, come on, Josh, don't you know, she wanted this thing to go to trial. So in between every break where the jurors got a Diet Coke Or a cup of coffee. She could go out and cry and carry on with her histrionics for the cameras to add for her reality show. Maybe. Maybe make another million dollars. Josh Zeman.

[Josh Zeman]

Look, I heard that she wasn't getting paid until the final episode aired. You know, it is a shock about it. I agree with you completely. Blood money. I will tell you this. I was in the courtroom, and right when Rex admitted to it, I looked back and I saw his daughter. And his daughter was. She was crushed. I feel bad for the daughter. I don't feel bad for the wife. I feel bad for the daughter who I think is crushed that this man that she loved is now a terrifying serial killer. That's one thing I will tell you.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, I get that. What I'm asking about is Asa Ellerup and her reality show. I don't care that she may not get all the money till the last episode is. From what I can tell, there may not ever be a last episode in our lifetime because they're still digging up bodies.

[Ad Voice / Announcer]

It's gross.

[Josh Zeman]

It's great.

[Nancy Grace]

Think, Thinky.

[Josh Zeman]

You know what? Look, I'll tell you something. You know what the lawyer said? The lawyer said when asked about it, the lawyer. Her lawyer said, this is what America wants. And that's the real question. Do we want this or not?

[Nancy Grace]

My real question is, why don't they have the death penalty? But that's a whole nother can of worms. Yeah, What America wants is justice. But is that justice? Him smirking in court. And you and I were talking earlier with Joe Scott Morgan about him being treated like the little darling, the teacher's pet, the bear behind the cage, getting fed filet mignon. Nobody wants to get that close to him, but they will feed him with a long handle spoon. That said, he's going to be studied and questioned. The FBI behavioral analysis unit is going to have a field day with him. He may get to travel to them. I mean, I guarantee you, Josh, that there will be a day like Bryan Kohberger that he will take part in some sort of documentary and he won't make any money, but there will be a way for money to be funneled to him through his wife, through his family. I don't know how, but he will find a way. He led quite the dual life, did he not?

[Josh Zeman]

Look, this was a guy who created these two separate Personas. That of a father, a commuter working in New York City, and that of a monster. And I think that was really important to them to create these dual personalities. One allowing him to Work on the other. He was a hero to his family, theoretically. So that he could kill at night. It was terrifying.

[Nancy Grace]

This is Lay interview with Rex Heuerman regarding the Department of Buildings. He's a consultant with them at the time. From bonjour realty on YouTube. Josh, listen to this. Brace yourself. You know this trick. Peacock insists that the family is not getting paid for participation. Not one red penny. But they are paying them licensing fees. What a ton of crap. Wait, correction. What a ton of stinking, steaming crap paid for a licensing fee. That means. Look, we can't say we're paying you for your interviews and for all of your BS that you're feeding us with a silver spoon and expecting us to swallow. But we will pay the million dollars for those pictures. That's bs. That gives them a way to say we're not paying for these interviews. But they are. They're paying for the pictures. Explain that whole bogus line.

[Josh Zeman]

It's something we do all the time in documentary filmmaking. We can't pay them, you know, Son of Sam laws, things like that. So we say, look, we'll pay you for exclusive pictures, video access. So Basically, we're getting $1 million for a picture that she's handing over. It's. Yeah, it's a way that we get around it so that we don't get Son of Sam laws. And it's. It's gross. And you're absolutely right.

[Nancy Grace]

You know Karen Stark joining me, forensic psychologist. She's a renowned TV and radio trauma expert consultant. She's@karen stark.com. that's Karen with a C. Karen. Just watching that trailer made me feel nauseous. I mean, and then her to ask the question, the rhetorical question, do people believe everything they hear? Woman, you're the one that plugged your ears, closed your eyes and taped over your mouth while your husband was raping and murdering people in your basement. Please.

[Karen Stark]

And to think that with that kind of an explanation, do you believe everything that she's actually getting paid now that she has so called awareness and continuing to make that documentary. But what I wanted to say about her and about this ex wife and serial killers in general is that they tend to pick women like this. They pick women who they know will ignore red flags, will not pay attention to all the little details that everyone else we know would pay attention to. That basement, the horrors that were there, all the little suspicions. So I think that that's an important thing to notice, that this really fits a pattern of what serial killers do. They want this kind of Woman.

[Nancy Grace]

Hey, Karen, Karen, Karen. You know my husband David very well, okay? Occasionally, he will break down and make the bed up in the morning. And we went to go see Van Gogh sunflower exhibit. Go with me on this. I'm going somewhere. And there's a pillow of a sunflower from a Van Gogh painting. And unless you really look at it, you can't tell which way is what. But I can tell because the vase is at the bottom, and there's a little tag on the right side of the pillow. When I walk through going back and forth, doing laundry or whatever I'm doing, I notice that the pillow is upside down, and I fix it. Okay? So if I notice the Van Gogh pillow is upside down, a, I'm grateful he made the bed up, but B, I fix it. You want to tell me Asa Ellerup never noticed anything in the basement where women were stripped, raped, tortured, and murdered? No way.

[Karen Stark]

I'm not saying she didn't notice it, Nancy. The important thing that I'm pointing out is that she's the kind of person who would ignore what she notices, that she's able to find a way inside of her mind to absolutely put it aside and say in some way, without saying to you, but to herself, I'm not going to pay attention to this in order to keep the life that she has. And there's no doubt in my mind, just like you, that there were hints, there were red flags all the time, but this is somebody who would not pay attention to them. And that happens a lot with the kind of women that serial killers and pick. Think Ted Bundy, think Dennis Raider. They pick women who live with them and somehow can't see what everyone else can see. In addition to which, look at their personalities. They are able to switch. It's like turning on a light, right? They could switch between the life that they're living with their family, with the community, and turn into these demonic killers that torture and rape. They're able to do that. People can't do that, but serial killers can.

[Mike Gould (Former Nassau County Lieutenant, NYPD K9 Unit)]

The fourth witness, she was a sex worker for many years. She said that she would service Rex Uberman over 20 times and that he would. He was a serial user of sex workers. He would sometimes have them come two at a time to his house, and his wife was home upstairs, and in one instance, got very angry at one of the sex workers because the wife believed that the worker had stolen an iron from, you know, for ironing clothes and had had it in the car with the driver. So the driver had to get out. Everybody had to search the car. There was no iron, but. But the wife knew about it and knew about obviously what was going on in order for that to happen.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

You know, they're saying specifically that there's evidence of torture that's different than post mortem mutilation. Nancy.

[Nancy Grace]

And it's clear how much he was

[Karen Stark]

obsessed with his own doing what he did following the brutal murders.

[Nancy Grace]

You can never erase anything on your computer. Snared in court. Long island serial killer Rex Heuerman pleads guilty to multiple murders. But I'm not done with you yet. Asa Ellerup, the wife, $1 million at least for a reality show, and now a lawsuit. Dave Mack, who is suing Ellerup, Benjamin Torres.

[Ad Voice / Announcer]

He is the 32 year old son of victim Valerie Mack. He is naming Rex Heuerman, obviously. But in this million dollar lawsuit, he names ASA Ellerup and daughter Victoria Heuermann as defendants. Torres alleges that he was deprived of his mother's care and protection, claims Mack was tortured before her death. And the suit seeks damages and targets the profits allegedly earned by Ellerp and Victoria Heuermann from the Peacock documentary that we've been talking about, saying that Heuermann's life being shown like this is a callous disregard to the victim's families.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, I'm just imagining what the victims families have gone through. They went for years thinking maybe their mothers just left them, abandoned them. How would you like to grow up thinking that mom just left. I don't know where she is. She didn't love me enough to stay with me or even stay in touch with me. I grew up without a mother. And then they find out for all those years that they blame their mom, that their mom had been tortured and raped and murdered and their remains buried on a desolate beach. Just growing up in itself has all sorts of trauma and issues. Pile that on top. I don't know how these people even get out of bed in the morning. To Joseph Scott Morgan, explain what was done to these victims. And you know what? When we show their faces, Joe Scott, it's easy to go, oh, there's a Long island serial killer victims. I would have to make jurors. And I didn't like it any more than they did. Make them confront what really happened to these ladies, what they endured before their deaths, what happened to them. Joe Scott.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

The worst possible torture that you can imagine. Can we reflect back just for a second to think about this list? Do you remember the list, Nancy? This kind of assignment of task that he had created. Nancy, there's there's one part in this list that he had created where it says, by the by, don't re. Don't forget to remove the hands and the head and to wash the bodies.

[Ad Voice / Announcer]

Just.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Let's just meditate on that, just for a second of how dark this whole thing is. And if it happened once, it happened multiple times. And that's. That's in death. Lord only knows what had happened in life down in. In that dark, dark space as he is torturing these poor victims. And here's the. Here's the real shame. Just like Ted Bundy, we will hear his name over and over and over and over again. Guess what? Guess what. There are very few people that can go down the list of Ted Bundy's victims and name them. I submit to you that the names of these victims will be forgotten. And I hate to say that it's very callous, but his name will trump everything else. He'll be mentioned over and over and over again. And people need to remember this. This is why, when I think about the allocution, why he should be compelled to talk about what. These are individuals, they had lives, they had families. And the torture that they were subjected to is stuff that you can't even imagine in your wildest dreams. It's stuff that you think about war crimes. People that commit war crimes didn't do stuff like this. You know, one thing that I reflectively think back to in this list, there's that one point where he actually uses the term hard point. And that really stuck with me. And the hard point was a location commonly where you secure something, like, for instance, an eye. An eye hook in the ceiling where you can tie somebody up, you can hang them almost like a piece of beef. Or if you're field dressing a deer and talking about the context of that, you know, what's your purpose for doing that, Rex? You know, why would you need a hardpoint? I know he's an architect. He probably uses that term from the descriptor of building something out. But that's not what he used that for, Nancy. He used that to secure these individuals so he could work out these sick fantasies. And, you know, they're paying the price. They're paying the price to satiate these evil desires that he has. And they are not going to be memorialized. I am truly hoping. I am so glad you brought up this gentleman who is suing because maybe there will be relief in civil court where they will have to talk about this stuff. They will have to talk about what happened in her domicile that she was living in with her kids. This was all going on under her nose in that basement. She inhabited the space. Let's hear it. You know, let the hide come with a hair. And let's hear what they have to say about this and what went on in that house. You're not going to get it in civil court. I mean, in criminal court, because he's not. He's not going to be forced to testify at this point. But in the civil court, maybe these families will get some relief and they will be able to see what he had done. And you can parade all of the experts across the stand in civil court. You can get transcripts, you can do depositions. And they're going to talk about it. And I hope it. I hope they go forward with it. I hope every family member out there that suffered at his hands will file suit. And we're going to find out what actually happened down there in that basement.

[Nancy Grace]

And recall, Jo Scott, that Asa Ellerup's hair was actually found on Valerie Mac's body, which opens up a whole nother can of worms. I'd like to go back to what the control room was showing while you were talking, Jo Scott. I guess in your world. As do I, I make lists all the time so I can't forget what all I have to do. Don't hunt too long in one area because you'll be seen. Don't charge for your gas. Check for video cameras in the pickup area. The next time you kidnap your victim, hit the victim harder. Make it easier to, quote, take them down. A hit to the face or the neck next time. Which means he didn't hit the victim in the right place for him the first time, and she fought back. You need more sleep before the murders. You need to control the noise and more playtime. In other words, torture. Hang drop cloths from the ceiling with push pins, not tape, because the drop cloths become loose during the rapes and the torture. Use heavy rope for the neck. Light rope, broke under the stress of being tightened. Now that son and all the victims families have to think about how tightly ropes were cinched around their mother's neck. Props, toys, wood items. Wood items for what? Destroy books, computer files, anything that touched T1, I guess the victim. Dispose of plastic bags, remove marks from the torture. What does that mean? Would he cut out portions of their skin? Remove head and hands?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, you're talking about excision there, Nancy. Excision is, say, for instance, you have a sharp instrument and you have an insult to the skin. For instance, you have a mark, an abrasion, a contusion, whatever it is. He's talking about excising that area, actually

[Nancy Grace]

cutting out a tissue, cutting out the tattoo from the skin. That's what Joe Scott is saying. And he's right. Now here are his problems to the panel. DNA, that's a problem. Tire marks. For him, that's a problem. Blood stains, fingerprints, plastic bag. He had cat litter to get rid of the smell. This guy. Look at this. All the supplies, booties, acid. Lie. A police scanner, cutting tools, hair nets, burn can, drain cleaner, tarps, electric clips. Large electric clips for what? Joe Scott to put on the victim's bodies and electrocute them as torture. Why would he need electric clips?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, to send voltage to their bodies. Because he's, he is experiencing this. This is. He wants to see the pain, he wants to see the resistance. He wants to see their reaction to the terror that he's inflicting upon them. Okay, they know that something horrible is coming. That horror being their end. But what's happening before they get to that death, which probably at the end of the day, many of them were probably begging for Nancy at that point. I think the big question is we know these things. Eight victims that he has admitted to. I want to know how many more women were brought down there and subjected to the same torture in this environment. You know, Lord only knows. I, you know, one of the things I think about is the DNA recovery down there in that area. I really wonder how many unknown bits of DNA may have been recovered. What was the opportunity? How much had it decreased graded? There's so many unanswered questions.

[Jana Kramer]

This is Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. Every Mother's Day I tell myself I'm going to be more thoughtful than flowers because flowers are beautiful, but they don't last. In my house, everyone always ends up in the kitchen. Friends, family, the kids. And I love having things around that spark conversation and feel special. That's why I love the Lenox Spice Village. And your mom will too. It's a set of 24 hand painted little houses that are actually spice jars. And I swear people notice it the second they walk in. It's charming, it's nostalgic, and it somehow makes even everyday cooking feel a little more fun. And here's the best part. It actually gets used every day. Whether you're starting the full set or helping her complete one she's loved for years. There's a whole world of Spice Village to explore this Mother's Day. Give her something she'll treasure long after the card is put away. Trust me, once you see it, you'll want one too. Find the full [e-mail] SpiceVillage hi, I'm

[Cindy Crawford]

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[Ray Tierney (Suffolk County District Attorney)]

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[Nancy Grace]

No idea.

[Jana Kramer]

Last week it was dinosaurs.

[Nancy Grace]

This week it's Lingo kids.

[Ray Tierney (Suffolk County District Attorney)]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Ray Tierney (Suffolk County District Attorney)]

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[Cindy Crawford]

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[Nancy Grace]

I noticed on the list. To Josh Zieman joining us, director of the Killing Season, an entire docu series that profiled and shed light on the Long island serial killings. I noticed on his list he wanted more photo film. His words. So obviously he took pictures during the torture or after.

[Josh Zeman]

Yeah. In fact, Nancy, there are believed to be 100,000 pictures that the district attorney has had to go through that the FBI helped to even organize. A hundred thousand. What's amazing is this guy took all these precautions to try not to get caught. Yet still, this was all sitting on his computer. This document, this planning document. It's called the HK Planning document. Hunt and kill planning document. It was sitting in this edge of. In this bytes of his computer that he could not erase. So despite all these things that he had done, it was still there. And thank God they were able to get this, he was actually. You talk about this house looking so ramshackle. He's a hoarder. He, he hoarded all these old items, old Palm Pilots, there were Palm pilots that they found that basically gave the dates of what he was doing and going. That actually mentioned his wife being away at times and he would go and find a victim. So he hoarded everything, including all these pieces of evidence. He also had, the most shocking thing is he had newspaper articles, 30 year old newspaper articles in his bedroom, in his office, in his basement of all his crimes. So for some guy who's such an architect and such a great planner, he still kept all these mementos that basically nailed him to a wall for these killings.

[Nancy Grace]

To Mike Gould, special guest, former Nassau county lieutenant, founding member of the NYPD canine unit. Led multiple investigations into serial killers, including this case. Mike, after all your work, all your time, literally blood, sweat and tears, how does it make you feel that this guy, he might be sentenced consecutively, one after the next after the next, but bottom line, he gets one life sentence for everything he did.

[Mike Gould (Former Nassau County Lieutenant, NYPD K9 Unit)]

Yeah, Nancy, it's sickening. This is a true animal, monster, whatever you want to call it. But what's most disturbing, he could be at your next dinner party. He was an architect. He was very well respected in the community. You know what I think about. As I said, I patrolled this area Parkway from 1992 to 1999 when frankly, these bodies were disposed of. But here's the sad reality. I could have pulled him over. He has a license, registration, and he could have had a body in his trunk. He's a duck hunter, he's a member of the community. I would have probably let him go. There would be no reason for me to suspect because sociopaths are very manipulative. As I said, he could be somebody's next door neighbor, he could be at. So that's what's the most troubling to me, is you never know the evil that lurks in anybody's mind, frankly. So, yeah, I could have stopped him, checked his license, registration. I could have said, what are you doing down here at 2 o' clock in the morning? You could have said, I'm going duck hunting, I'm doing this. And I would have let him go. And that's the facts of life. And there could have been a mutilated body in his trunk.

[Nancy Grace]

Mike Gould, a special guest tonight. He worked the Long island serial killer case. Mike, what you said is chilling, eerie, and I know it to be true. I remember one serial killer I Prosecuted was a chef and everybody loved him. He was a serial killer. So what you're saying, it's. And I would not, in front of the jury, I would look over at him and just try to take it in. And it's very hard to evaluate, to understand, to reconcile that that guy sitting there in a gorgeous suit, flanked by lawyers is a cold blooded killer. And when I think of what Josh Zieman just said about over 100,000 photos of these dead women during torture, during rapes, and their families have to live with that the rest of their lives. I mean, I feel, I don't know, robbed by this guilty plea and I don't know why.

[Mike Gould (Former Nassau County Lieutenant, NYPD K9 Unit)]

Yeah, so this is a heinous crime. We can't, you can't fathom insanity. How can a normal functioning person. As I said, this could be anyone. Nobody's immune to this. This could be a priest, it could be any member of your community, family member. They're devious and they live double lives. If you look at all his notes, those are the notes of an architect. Right. Architects are very meticulous and they have to learn from their last architectural drawings. So when you look at that, this is a checklist, police scanners. He had probably thought about how, what he was going to say if somebody like myself pulled him over in the middle of night on Ocean Parkway. I'm sure he had a very well reasoned excuse. So this is, this is a sadistic maniac and we can scratch our heads from now to eternity trying to figure out what, how a sociopath thinks, how they get some type of enjoyment from mutilating people. It's not on our radar screens. It's certainly not on my radar screen. So, yeah, I. Fortunately for me, I've been doing this stuff so long, I have a way of just isolating those thoughts and the emotions. I've kind of emotionally detached from a lot of this. So a lot of it I frankly don't even listen to as, as I just kind of avoid it, Stick with the facts of the case. But yeah, it's a. He's a monster, period.

[Nancy Grace]

Karen Stark. What, what advice, what words of consolation or hope can you give the victims families?

[Karen Stark]

Well, the best you could do in a case like this, Nancy, is to actually talk to them, advise them to get help, to keep talking it out because it really makes a difference and it's really hard because they're aware of the torture. They just like you. Right. They can't fathom it. And they can put themselves in the place of the victim, which is terrible to imagine what they went through. And here he does this because he gets a charge out of it. That smirk is showing you how much he enjoys this. And there is no doubt in my mind that he pleaded guilty because he didn't want to go over the details. He has very specific details that he wants to keep to himself and maybe share with the FBI so he can get the fame that he's been looking for. But this is a monster. And so what do you say to the family is accept, be with each other, keep talking about it. You must go on with your lives for the sake of the victims.

[Nancy Grace]

It's not over yet. And we wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.

[Ad Voice / Announcer]

Mom, can I have Lingokids? Dad, Lingokids, please?

[Ray Tierney (Suffolk County District Attorney)]

When did we become the Lingokids house?

[Nancy Grace]

No idea.

[Jana Kramer]

Last week it was dinosaurs.

[Nancy Grace]

This week it's Lingokids.

[Ray Tierney (Suffolk County District Attorney)]

Why Lingokids?

[Nancy Grace]

Because it's the best thing ever.

[Ad Voice / Announcer]

We can play games with astronauts, wild animals and superheroes.

[Camper / Parent]

With more than 4,000 interactive games, songs

[Ad Voice / Announcer]

and shows, LingoKids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids.

[Nancy Grace]

So no dinosaurs and dinosaurs.

[Ad Voice / Announcer]

Lingokids.

[Ray Tierney (Suffolk County District Attorney)]

Everything kids love.

[Nancy Grace]

Download it for free.

[Cindy Crawford]

You know what quality feels like. You can see it in the way a fabric moves, recognize it in a flawless fit and appreciate it in the details that make our styles unique. It's the standard Coldwater Creek has honored for over 40 years, derived from a rich Mountain west heritage and designed for today in styles that are distinctively Coldwater Creek. For a wardrobe you can count on season after season, visit coldwatercreek.com, shop new arrivals and save 15% on purchases. $75 or more with code iHeart.

[Nancy Grace]

This is Sophia Donner from OK Storytime this summer. Find your next obsession on Prime Video and listen. We're not saying you need another obsession, but there could be a lot worse ones. Steamy romance, addictive love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. So why not watch them a third time off campus? Elle, the Love Hypothesis and more. Slow Burn, Second Chances chemistry you can feel through the screen and it makes you wish you were actually in that movie. We've got binge worthy series can't miss movies. Perfect for when you're ignoring your own problems or procrastinating as one does. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Your social media feed delivers plenty of

[Jana Kramer]

advice, but it doesn't know you. It doesn't ask questions. It doesn't give physical exams or order tests doctors do at the American Medical Association. We believe the best care starts with a real conversation, with someone who understands the science and your unique health. So stay curious, ask questions. But when it's time to make decisions, make them with a doctor. Learn more at amahealth versus hype.org that's amahealthvshipe.org this is an I Heart podcast.

[Nancy Grace]

Guaranteed human.