SAVANNAH GUTHER MOM MISSING: EXTENSIVE HIGHWAY SEARCHES UNDERWAY

Summary

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: SAVANNAH GUTHER MOM MISSING: EXTENSIVE HIGHWAY SEARCHES UNDERWAY
Date: February 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, Nancy Grace and a panel of experts dissect ongoing developments in the disappearance and suspected kidnapping of 84-year-old Nancy Guthrie from the Catalina Foothills north of Tucson. As major search efforts intensify and new evidence emerges—including suspicious ransom missives and video footage from Guthrie’s porch—Nancy and her guests discuss law enforcement strategies, behavioral clues, technology in the investigation, and the impact on the victim’s family. Listeners are treated to sharp insight and the relentless questioning Grace is known for.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Search Intensifies Across Southern Arizona

• [00:41–04:05]

  • Hundreds of FBI and sheriff’s deputies are now combing the Catalina Foothills, with searches extending to areas near Tul, Sinalo, Tulsa, Northridge, Estrada, and major roadways.
  • Purpose of Search: Looking for evidence (cell phone, camera, clothing) possibly discarded by the perpetrator as they left the scene.
  • Public Advisory: FBI warns locals and media to be alert and yield to search teams.

  “They are spread...all over the area. They are searching roads, back roads...they’re looking specifically for evidence that could have been tossed from a vehicle...”—Dave Mack [03:13]

2. Role of Public Tips and Surge in Information

• [06:42–09:30]

  • Nancy underscores the critical value of citizen tips, citing the Gabby Petito case as an example where a bystander’s vigilance helped locate remains.
  • Following release of video footage, tips surged from 1,800 to 4,000 in a single day.

  “Did you know, Brian Fitzgibbons, that In the last 24 hours, there have been 4,000 calls, tips called in?...This is what is generating the calls and the tips. This.”—Nancy Grace [08:31]

3. What Law Enforcement is Seeking in the Searches

• [04:38–10:05]

  • Expert theories on evidence sought: Discarded disguises/clothing, tools, or incriminating items that match security video from the scene.
  • Described as "blocking and tackling"...covering every possible escape route and avenue for discarded evidence.
  • Expert Brian Fitzgibbons outlines likely scenarios for roadside searches:
    1. Following up on specific tips about suspicious vehicles or activity.
    2. Assuming typical criminal behavior: discarding disguises/tools to avoid being traced.

  “Very often in criminal activity, they're going to dump, you know, regardless of what crime it is, they're going to dump that clothing or disguise.”—Brian Fitzgibbons [05:51]

4. Breakdown of Security Video: Clothing, Layers, Motive

• [10:05–13:51]

  • Nancy recounts a past case to illustrate how criminals often change/discard disguises for escape.
  • Experts debate whether the suspect’s elaborate preparation suggests a professional hit or bungling amateurism.
  • Possible misdirection: Is the suspect trying to make this look like a ransom kidnapping, when motives may differ (e.g., inheritance)?

  “He's clearly...he has on layers. Layers. He's about to bust out of the pants and the jacket.”—Nancy Grace [11:19]

  “Now, everything except for the video has been done on a professional level. So this video isn't congruent with the other things that have happened.”—Josh Colesrud [13:09]

5. The Bizarre Ransom Missives and “Bitcoin Rat”

• [14:44–16:24]

  • TMZ receives a third email, this from an alleged third party offering to name the kidnapper for one bitcoin (~$66,000).
  • Skepticism abounds; former detective Chris McDonough compares it to classic email scams and notes the traceability of bitcoin.

  “What do you make of a rat ratting out a rat? Can he be believed? And does nobody understand Bitcoin can be traced?”—Nancy Grace [15:28]

6. High-Tech Forensics and RN (Registered Number) Tracking

• [16:24–19:28]

  • Chris McDonough explains how even tossed clothing can provide investigative leads via RN numbers—unique tags on imported garments tracked by the FTC.
  • Real-life case: Police tracked a murder suspect’s jacket to the cash register and credit card.
  • Application in Guthrie case: Scrutinizing any recovered items for tracking.

  “With that number, the Federal Trade Commission tracks the inventory as it comes into the United States, and then the distribution points as to where that particular clothing went, including backpacks.”—Chris McDonough [17:39]

7. How Security Footage Was Recovered Against the Odds

• [19:28–22:50]

  • Even without a Nest subscription, the FBI obtained porch cam footage by pulling data from Google’s vast digital archives.
  • Nancy marvels at the technological feat, likening it to a “Raiders of the Lost Ark” moment.

  “The FBI did it. They went through all of that data and they find Nancy Guthrie's door cam and they resurrect this—power to the feds.”—Nancy Grace [21:32]

8. Detailed Analysis of the Perpetrator’s Clothing and Equipment

• [22:50–24:31]
  • Unique features: balaclava with vertical ribs, jacket with reflective zipper, stuffed adult-sized backpack with reflectors.
  • Law enforcement likely canvassing local stores (e.g., Walmart) for matching items.

9. Facial Recognition and Biometric Analysis Despite Disguises

• [25:04–27:09]

  • Authorities using porch measurements and shoe prints to estimate the suspect’s height and shoe size (estimated 5’11”–6’0”, size 12).
  • Even with face concealed, software may later verify an ID based on facial ratios and body size if a suspect emerges.

  “They can measure the length, the height of the stones and Nancy Guthrie's porch, ...They can determine his height, probably down to about an inch...”—Nancy Grace [25:25]

10. ‘Movement DNA:’ Behavioral Fingerprint Analysis

• [28:08–31:30]

  • Body language expert Janine Driver stresses the investigative value in the unique way the suspect walks—his “movement DNA.”
  • The public is encouraged to report if the walk/movements evoke recognition, as movement patterns can be as identifying as faces.

  "We all have movement DNA. There are about 9 billion people on the planet. There are 36 billion different ways we can move our bodies..."—Janine Driver [28:55]

11. Assessment of Guthrie Family’s Body Language Under Scrutiny

• [31:08–35:02]

  • Janine Driver addresses criticism that Guthrie’s children (Savannah, Annie, Cameron) seem unemotional—explaining that real trauma response varies greatly and that no signs of deception, contempt or inappropriate behavior are present.

  "What Savannah is saying is, I'm taking this seriously. Listen to me... Annie's looking down, emotional. Look at—you see sadness in the chin. Sadness is one of the hardest emotions to fake."—Janine Driver [33:01]

12. Status of the Key Suspect (Carlos Palazzo) and Ongoing Rio Rico Search

• [35:02–38:35]

  • Law enforcement stopped and questioned delivery driver Carlos Palazzo, but he was released after they could not connect him to the case.
  • His proximity and vague resemblance prompted the stop; extensive ongoing search of the Rio Rico area noted.
  • Legal expert clarifies that police only need reasonable suspicion to detain, not arrest.

  “Carlos was detained. He was not arrested... If the police had probable cause, he would never have gotten home last night.”—Josh Colesrud [38:35]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the case’s complexity:
  "It's a kidnap of 84 year old Nancy Guthrie and he's such a bumbling idiot that he tried to cover up the door cam with foliage. Which is a real dichotomy with whoever wrote the ransom note, which was very well written." —Nancy Grace [12:24]

• On bitcoin extortion attempts:
  "Can he be believed? And does nobody understand Bitcoin can be traced?" —Nancy Grace [15:28]

• On citizen involvement:
  "Citizen sleuth...If it had not been for that citizen sleuth, we would never have found Gabby Petito’s remains." —Nancy Grace [07:48]

• On the vital role of movement DNA:
  "There are 36 billion different ways we can move our bodies that connect to how we make decisions..." —Janine Driver [28:57]

• On the reality of grieving:
  "These people, this family, the Guthrie family, are exhausted. They're up all night. When we judge people's behavior like we're judging the Guthrie kids here, right. I want you to stop and think, do I have a bias?" —Janine Driver [31:52]

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Important Timestamps

• [00:41–03:06] — Law enforcement search details, locations, public impact.
• [06:42–09:30] — Surge in tips after video release, Gabby Petito reference.
• [13:00–13:51] — Motives: professional hit vs. misdirection.
• [14:44–16:24] — Bitcoin ransom missive to TMZ, skepticism.
• [16:24–19:28] — Clothing tracking, RN numbers, digital evidence.
• [21:32–23:11] — Porch camera video recovery by FBI, Google data mining.
• [28:08–31:30] — Body language analysis, movement DNA insight.
• [35:22–36:14] — Search continues in Rio Rico, suspect Carlos Palazzo.
• [38:35–39:25] — Legal explanation about detainment vs arrest.

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Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Nancy Grace doggedly pursues theories, expert insights, and public involvement in the Nancy Guthrie disappearance. The episode is packed with practical investigative breakdowns, lively expert debate, and heartfelt appeals to both forensic science and human intuition. The central message: Every clue matters, from advanced tech to the way a suspect walks, and the search for Nancy Guthrie is far from over.

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If you have any information, call:
1-800-225-5324
Or anonymously: 520-882-7463

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hello. I'm here during the lunch rush with Janice, who owns her own food truck.

[Janine Driver]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Janine Driver]

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[Chris McDonough]

Get a commercial auto insurance quote [e-mail].

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

And see how much you could save. It feels good to Geico Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

[Nancy Grace]

All of our hopes dashed last night when we learn a guy has been taken in for detainment in the Nancy Guthrie case. We learned that the hostage unit is on standby less than a mile away. That means the hostage is nearby. Right? For our hopes to be dashed when we wake up this morning and find out that guy was released. He allegedly had nothing to do with Nancy Guthrie's disappearance. Also, as we go to air right now, another missive has been received by TMZ 330 mile zone. This time the missive isn't the rat. They want to rat out the rat. They are stating they can give the name of the perp for one bitcoin to a bitcoin wallet. What is the Bitcoin worth? $66,000. Also at this hour, we learned that the FBI is combing the roadside and they are in three locations. Campbell. They are in near Tul. They are near Sinalo, Tulsa, Northridge, Estrada. Those four places. Not three, four. All the Catalina foothills. And they are looking along the roadside. Why was something tossed out of a car? A cell phone, a camera. That camera that was taken off Nancy Guthrie's front porch. What are they looking for? In addition to combing the Catalina foothills near the roadside, the FBI has launched a new search near Nancy Guthrie's home in the Catalina foothills north of Tucson. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Dave Mack joining me. Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave. I'm going to get to the searches that are going on right now in the foothills of Catalina first. Then we'll go through what happened last night. I see. I've seen video footage of the FBI and I believe local law enforcement elsewhere combing the roadsides. Where are they?

[Dave Mack]

They are in the Catalina foothills just north of Tucson, Nancy. And by the way, they're not just in one location. They have spread hundreds okay. Plural. Hundreds of FBI and sheriff's deputies are all over the area. They are searching roads, back roads, and they're not isolated to one specific area. They're covering all of it. And they are looking specifically for evidence that could have been tossed from a vehicle going down the road, maybe a road that doesn't get a lot of traffic in the foothills. And they are looking. They're going, you know what? There are so many people out there. They're asking anybody driving in those areas to be extra cautious. They're even warning media. I say they it's the FBI. The FBI Phoenix office has taken to X to point out there are so many officials that are actually searching this area. Be careful, get out of the way. They're on foot looking for evidence. Nancy.

[Nancy Grace]

Josh Colesrud joining us from this jurisdiction in Arizona, veteran criminal defense attorney, former federal prosecutor, and founder of the Colesrude law offices. Josh, exactly where would the Catalina foothills be for those that are not familiar with Arizona?

[Josh Colesrud]

Yeah, the Catalina foothills are just outside of Tucson. It's an affluent area. You know, I'm from Phoenix. We kind of look at the Catalina foothills as the Scottsdale of the Tucson area. It's very nice in a fairly large retirement community.

[Nancy Grace]

And as Dave Mack said, it's all along the roadways. So what are they looking for? Brian Fitzgibbons joining US, Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security. Their specialty, locating missing [e-mail] Brian, I think they're looking for something thrown out of a window. And is this desperate? Maybe, or maybe they got a tip. The number of tips has swollen. There's a surge of tips after Savannah Guthrie's last plea for the public's help. Did somebody call in and say, hey, I saw a guy throw what looked to be a cell phone out of a car on that night. But what could they be looking for, Brian? And what does this mean? That they're literally beating the bushes?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah. Bingo. There are two reasons that law enforcement would be out there. And the first one you've highlighted both of them. The first one is, hey, they got a tip. Someone in Tucson said, hey, I saw a suspicious vehicle parked alongside of the road. Maybe there was a swap that took place. Second vehicle came in, I saw something, and we want to go inspect that area. And law enforcement's out there following up on that tip. The second reason is exactly what you said. Very often in criminal activity, they're going to dump, you know, regardless of what crime it is, they're going to dump that clothing or disguise. So it's not in a vehicle with them. So there's a very good chance that this is law enforcement doing exactly what they told us they're doing, which is. Is all the blocking and tackling to do this the right way. And that's going to include covering those major roadways, avenues of egress away from Ms. Guthrie's house, to see if there's anything discarded along the road that now matches that video we have from the crime scene.

[Nancy Grace]

And Brian Fitzgibbons, you and I covered and investigated ourselves the Delphi double murders of Abby and Libby. And if you will recall, it came out in court. And it was really heartbreaking that a tip had been taken down at the beginning of the investigation and that tip had been translated incorrectly. And I believe that they reversed Richard Allen or they reversed the name of the street. So all of this time when people were searching and so much was happening, trying to solve the case, it was right under their noses. But the tip got screwed up and overlooked. There's so many citizen tips. I always use the Gabby Petito case as a great example of citizen sleuth. Everyone was looking for Gabby Petito in her white Ford Transit. We now know that she and Brian Laundrie had been in what is called dispersed camping, way, way out in the wilderness. No porta potty hookups, no lights, no cell phone range. And there was a citizen who had been following the story, and they had the handle red, blue, and methane, as I recall. And they spotted Gabby Potato's white Ford Transit. And out of the blue, in the middle of nowhere, they go, hey, that could be Gabby's Ford Transit. They called it in, Brian, and law enforcement went out there. And if it had not been for that citizen sleuth, we would never have found Gabby Petito's remains. And her parents would be wondering to this day what happened to Gabby. The outcome wasn't good, but they know. They have the knowledge of what happened to. To Gabby. So did you know, Brian Fitzgibbons, that In the last 24 hours, there have been 4,000 calls, tips called in. Before that, there had only been 1800 since February 1st. But once this video was released. Let's play it again. Control room, please. This is what is generating the calls and the tips. This. And I want to see his face as best as we can. That balaclava, that ski mask that he is wearing. This guy, this guy. If I could just get my hands on him. So, Brian Fitzgibbons, you believe, repeat what you think is the reason they're out Beating the bushes by the side of the road.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah. First and foremost, right? As I said before, they're doing everything they said. Law enforcement's doing everything they said they would do, which is cover every base. And they're gonna. They're gonna search those avenues of egress away from Mrs. Guthrie's house where, you know, this perpetrator, this suspect who is at the door very well could have discarded some of that equipment or some of that clothing to disguise his appearance after leaving the scene. So that's number one. I think that's just part of the blocking and tackling.

[Nancy Grace]

Hey, I want to follow up on that. Fitzgibbons. That's a really good thought. Cole's rude. Let me tell you about a case I had. It was the first bank robbery I ever had, and the guy did just that. He came into the bank in a disguise. He was wearing a double breasted suit, dress, can't remember. Shoes, hat, wig, aviator, darkened aviator glasses, fake mustache, beard. He left with the money, and he had, as I called it, a breakaway suit. He had basted up the back of it. We didn't have DNA. Yanked it off, took off the hat, took off the mustache, the whole wig, the whole thing. Threw it down. Underneath. He was wearing a short sleeve shirt, a pair of shorts, athletic socks up to the knee. He got on a bicycle that was parked beside the bike parked beside the bank, drove off on the bicycle and got away. He drove right past all of the ambulances and the police that were racing to the scene, sirens blazing, rode right by them in a different outfit. Now look at this guy. Kohl's wrote. He's clearly, to me, it's clear he has on layers. Layers. He's about to bust out of the pants and the jacket. You think that could be why?

[Josh Colesrud]

Well, he's certainly being overly cautious by wearing the multiple layers to prevent hair and DNA, touch DNA from being left at the crime scene. Now, I know I look at this from a different lens, Nancy. You know, before we had this video, you know, you had, you know, the majority of the commentators saying that, you know, this looked like a professional hit job because of the success so far with not being able to identify who did this. Now, what if, you know, they. This person here is doing this for our benefit to mislead us into thinking that it's somebody that it's not or that it's a type of operation that it wasn't. So, you know, I'm kind of taking this with a grain of salt right now until we have some Additional evidence to kind of lead us on the way.

[Nancy Grace]

You're giving them a lot of credit. What? When you said you can't just drop a bomb like that Coles route and not expect me to cross examine you. What do you mean? That the guy on the porch is trying to mislead us to make us think it's something it's not. It's a kidnap of 84 year old Nancy Guthrie and he's such a bumbling idiot that he tried to cover up the door cam with foliage. Which is a real dichotomy with whoever wrote the ransom note, which was very well written. But what do you mean he's trying to make us think it's something it's not? We already know what it is. It's kidnaping.

[Josh Colesrud]

Well, I mean, there's kidnapping that is a dumb kidnapping where people get caught and then there's a professional kidnapping where people don't get caught. Now, everything except for the video has been done on a professional level. So this video isn't congruent with the other things that have happened. I mean, this 84 year old was kidnapped. And there's a national manhunt for the people or person involved. And we, at least as far as the public is concerned, know almost virtually nothing about what's going on, including finding Nancy Guthrie. So what I'm trying to say is, you know, we don't know yet to attribute a motive. We don't know yet if this is professional or not. But if somebody later on a month ago, a month from now, said that this was staged to, you know, mislead us in our investigation, I wouldn't necessarily be surprised.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, now I see what you're saying. Like make us think it's a kidnap for ransom when really it's a murder in order to get her inheritance. Something that's just a theory of misdirection to follow up and give an example of what you're stating. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. A lot's happening right now. We now know that the FBI and local law enforcement is trying to identify the clothing, the backpack, the shoes, the balaclava, the ski mask, the gun, you name it. Very quickly, Dave Mack, tell us about yet a third missive, this one to TMZ that has gone down literally in the last hours.

[Dave Mack]

It has, Nancy. The shocking reality is that earlier today TMZ got another email. Now, this one is not from the actual kidnappers. This one is from a rat promising to rat out the kidnappers in exchange for one bitcoin. Now, they will Name who the kidnapper is. And by the way, he's not saying this person doesn't say plural, saying, I will name the kidnapper one person, singular, in exchange for one bitcoin that cost about $66,000. That's the offer. It's not the kidnapper. It is somebody who knows the kidnapper offering to rat them out for the money.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, straight out to Chris McD joining us, Director of the Cold Case foundation, former homicide detective, he's worked Oceanside, California. He's worked over 300 homicides in a 25 year career. That's his expertise and he is the star of the interview room on YouTube. What do you make of a rat ratting out a rat? Can he be believed? And does nobody understand Bitcoin can be traced. You put that wallet up there, throw in a hundred dollars, the minute it is transferred out, bam. The IRS can do it, the DOJ can do it, the FBI can do it. Unless they move the money to a foreign country that has low or no bitcoin regulation. In other words, there's nothing for us to subpoena. There's nothing there because there's no regulation. We can get him.

[Chris McDonough]

Yeah, absolutely. And remember that guy that used to send the, hey, you're the heir of a Nigerian prince and for a million dollars, we'll hold it. Okay, this is just a bunch of noise that's going on around this thing. What's really important is right refocus back at the house. And that's what the investigators are doing and what you were talking about a little bit ago, Nancy, on this search that's going on here, if they do find a piece of clothing, one evidentiary tab or path that they can go down is they can look at that clothing and there's what they call an RN number on the tags. If the clothing was manufactured overseas, they're going to be able to get right down to the cash register where that clothing was purchased.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, you got me at RN number. Start right there.

[Chris McDonough]

Yeah, so an RN number and I actually had a homicide where we pulled the RN number and we found where the suspect had purchased his clothing. What it is, it's a Federal Trade Commission number and it's mandatory for any kind of import clothing from overseas. And every piece of clothing has it, let's say if it was made, you know, in Indonesia or something to that effect. Well, with that number, the Federal Trade Commission tracks the inventory as it comes into the United States, and then the distribution points as to where that particular clothing went, including backpacks.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, McDonough, you're brilliant. I just plugged in RN number. You can actually search the RN database. There is a. An R in database. Wow. You had a case and you used the RN database. How?

[Chris McDonough]

Yeah, this. Well, the suspect pulled off his jacket and he left it in a drainage ditch behind the murder scene. And so we pulled that number through the Federal Trade Commission, and we were able to find out, you know, when the. When the item was manufactured, who the distributors were. And then we traced it to a store in a mall nearby, and we were able to go to that mall and pull the purchase receipt of all of those types of jackets. And then we had the credit card numbers, and we just kind of, through elimination, ended up with our guide.

[Nancy Grace]

I didn't want to interrupt you. I understand it that far, but how did you get it into evidence?

[Chris McDonough]

Easily. We just showed him the chain of custody. You know, how we did it, and the DA was able to.

[Nancy Grace]

And Chris McDonough, did you get him? Was he convicted?

[Chris McDonough]

Yes, he. Actually. Yes. First degree murder during the commission of a robbery. Yeah. And the victim was David Tabor. Yeah, it was. Three nationals, by the way, from over.

[Nancy Grace]

The border are in number. That's amazing. In our effort to try and figure out. And I guarantee you, you did this as local law enforcement. No telling what the FBI can do, because let me just throw this at you. Everyone was wondering, how did they get the images off the front porch? Let's just. Let's just drink them in for another moment because this is a big, huge break. Okay, we're going to. Where did they come from? This is how it went down. And Brian Fitzgibbons, jump in if I've got anything wrong, or you too, Colesrude. This is what happened. You can see up at the top, right, it says Nest. That's Nancy Guthrie's camera system through Nest. Nest is part of Google. We know Nancy did not have a subscription, so the video wasn't kept. How did we get the video? It was gone. Well, Cast Cellular Analysis survey team used all of their efforts, and they reached Google and they then mined Google's vast, vast inventory, their data. I mean, think of Indiana Jones, Raiders of the Lost Ark, where you find out the Ark of the Covenant. That's the Lost Ark. The Ark of the Covenant that holds the Ten Commandments is way, way, way at the end of a long, long aisle, floor to ceiling in a dusty old box, never to be seen again. So that's what it's like to go into Google's database or their archives. But the FBI did it. They went through all of that data and they find Nancy Guthrie's door cam and they resurrect this power to the feds. What I'm saying, Chris McDonough, you solve that case with the RN number off a jacket down a drainpipe. What can they do? Now here is our sad but earnest effort. Let's see what our staffers at Crime Stories came up with. We were looking for that very unique ski mask or since it comes down over the neck, a balaclava. It's got unique stitching around the eyes. The nose is not shown, just that hole for the mouth. And you have the vertical ribs. Gray in color. Walmart, I guarantee you somebody somewhere is doing this right now. Let's look at the jacket. The jacket has a very unique zip down the front. Now remember in the lighting where the perp actually is, is not true. It's not a true depiction. So they're going to have to figure out was this. I'm seeing all sorts of transformations online. Is this real? What color was it? They could probably pick out what size it is. The zipper is reflective, so that's what we know about that. Again, Walmart. That'd be the first place I would look. The local Walmart. Because we believe this guy is from Tucson.

[Josh Colesrud]

Why?

[Nancy Grace]

His affinity with KGUN and kold. Also, he's a guy that goes to tmz. Who goes to tmz? There is a very specific group, a demographic that reads tmz. I do. Who else does? Look at the backpack. What can we learn from the backpack? And it's crammed to the brim. He is not going in to take anything out. He's not in for a robbery or a burglary. He's taking something in, for Pete's sake. Let's see the other side, which I find to be very, very demonstrative. The two light look on either shoulder. You can see the light reflectors. That's what they're looking for. An adult sized backpack with these light reflect reflectors. Those shoulder patches he's got on his chest. They're looking for the balaclava. They're looking for the jacket, they're looking for the backpack. The gloves at first, like boxer's gloves. Is he wearing multiple layers? That said, we understand that that is being done right now. Okay, what do you think about that, Fitzgibbons?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

No, you're absolutely right, Nancy. And they're, you know, so far as analyzing this video even further, they are breaking apart every single pixel around that mouth and those eyes on Every exposed piece behind that mask. Now, obviously, it's an uphill battle for whatever softwares and whatever abilities the FBI has, but they've already surprised us one time with recovering this video. I wouldn't be surprised if they.

[Chris McDonough]

If they did.

[Nancy Grace]

Again, Fitz Gibbons is actually joining us from a scene he is working. So, Fitz, before you sign off, can I talk to you about facial recognition? Because from that video, the FBI can determine and local law enforcement can do this as well. It's not magic. It's not genius. They can look at this. They can measure the length, the height of the stones and Nancy Guthrie's porch, on her porch, when he first walks in, when he first steps up on that step. And they can determine his height, probably down to about an inch. Okay, let's see him walk up the porch. Here we go. He's got his head down. That's not helpful. Keep going. Right there. Right there. When he was walking up and held his head up. Also, you can even get the size of this guy's shoe when he's stepping on those tiles. There's one where he steps directly in the. At the beginning of the tile. We can get a shoe size. Has already been estimated to be a size 12. His height has been estimated between 5, 11 and 6ft. Okay, facial recognition, it's used at airports. It's used by people that already have cleared to get on to planes, is used by passport, quick lines, by global entry. All sorts of facial recognition is already out there. I mean, look at your iPhone, for Pete's sake. That's facial recognition. So we need the distance between his eyes, from the inner part of the eyes to each other, from the outer part of the eyes to each other. The length of the nose, the width of the face, cheekbone to cheekbone, the length of the face, forehead to chin, and the size of the head. Brian Fitzgibbons. Can they do it?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

I think they have an uphill battle to identify a suspect from these images in this video. However, what they are going to get to, and these are things that you just highlighted. They're going to have these measurements about the eyes, about the mouth, the height, the shoe size. That when they do have a suspect, when they're able, they're going to be able to use this video to confirm that suspect. So it is valuable. They're going to go through this exercise, and that exercise will turn out to be valuable. What we're missing here is ratios. Distance between the eyes, eyebrows, chin to nose. You know, these ratios are going to come together on any software for it to actually make that id. And with that mask, we're obviously missing this. So we're dependent on all the other things. Body language, height, shoe size, you know, rough weight and things like that.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us now, you know her well, Janine Driver, body language expert, CEO of the Body Language Institute. She is a New York Times best selling author of you say More Than youn Think and you'd Can't Lie to Me. She's a host of a podcast, a hit podcast called in the Driver's Seat with Jeanine Driver. Jeanine, thank you for being with us. So many things to ask you. I'd like to get to the guy that was caught and released, but right now, he's not a player in this scenario. I want you to look instead of at the guy, the known perp on Nancy Guthrie's porch. What can you tell me?

[Janine Driver]

All right, Nancy and listener at home, viewer at home. What the police are looking for, most likely right now is, does this man look familiar to you? The way he is moving? We have what's called movement DNA. Look, as he walks out here, if you've ever been in a grocery store and you're like, wait a minute, is that my sister? Or in a movie theater and someone walked by, like, wait a minute, is that my neighbor? It's. We all have movement DNA. There are about 9 billion people on the planet. There are 36 billion different ways we can move our bodies that connect to how we make decisions. This man, when walking, if you look at him and you think, he looks like my neighbor, he looks like my cousin, my former babysitter. This looks like a basketball player that I used to coach in high school. Telling you, your instinct probably picks up on that movement DNA. Before someone speaks, before we see their face. The fact that we can see his body move despite having a mask is incredibly valuable to us. There are 30, 36 billion different ways we move our bodies that connect to how we make decisions and process information. If you have a vibe, look how he tilted to his left right here when he walked up the stairs. If you know someone who angles more to their left when they're standing, when they're thinking, these are our evaluators. These people tend to stand at diagonals. It's like the scale of justice. These are the people who like a system. This is most likely a man who has created a system before he did this. So if you're looking at this movement, I have a funny feeling police have given us this. So you can say, I can't put my finger on it, but I just feel like some reason this looks like blank. Who I know. Please call the number Nancy's going to give you. Please let police know. No tip is not invaluable to us at this point. We want to get Nancy Guthrie home. So look at the movement. Pay attention to that slant. Look how he walked down that step off the porch. Does that ring true to you? Think about it. I have three sons. When they walk in, before I can even see them, I can hear, is that Jack? Jack, is that you? Charlie, is that you? Angus, is that you? Why the way we move? We have movement DNA. It is a behavioral fingerprint. Look at this. Just like a fingerprint on our thumb. Does this behavioral fingerprint seem familiar to you? If it does, and let us know.

[Nancy Grace]

Janine Driver, the author of youf say More Than youn Think. I'd also like you to take a look at the siblings. Our friend Savannah that I worked with at Court tv, her sister Annie, and the brother Cameron. What do you see? A lot has been made of their nonverbal behavior online. You're the expert.

[Janine Driver]

Yeah. I think a lot of people are tearing apart Annie because we're not hearing much from her. And I want to express to you how we look at people who grieve in the movies is not what's happening here. This has been over a week. My mother died. I'm the matriarch of my family. I'm the oldest of three. I didn't lose my cool until literally at her graveside, when they played the song Time to say Goodbye, I collapsed forward. That was six or seven days after mom passed. These people, this family, the Guthrie family, are exhausted. They're up all night. When we judge people's behavior like we're judging the Guthrie kids here, right. I want you to stop and think, do I have a bias? Because we watch so many movies, Nancy, we have a grieving bias. When I weigh in on cases, whether it was Judge Kavanaugh versus, you know, Dr. Ford back in the day, I stop and say, first, Jeanine, what's my bias? My bias is I had a. I was molested as a kid, and I didn't remember all the details. Like Dr. Ford didn't remember all the details. I'm a mother of three sons. I don't want my three sons being found guilty before we even hear what the other person has to say. So I have a bias there. When we can name our bias, we can make smarter decisions. So for the people who are giving the gut three kids a hard time, especially Annie, just stop. Do you have a quieter sibling? Do you have someone else you see.

[Nancy Grace]

As a body language expert? What are you reading from their behavior? This is what you do for a living. You're a New York Times bestseller about this.

[Janine Driver]

Look at Savannah, right? I've been interviewed by her. She's a good friend of yours. She normally stands up and sits up straight. She's very poised. She here is leaning forward. We often see this with the family member that feels like I'm responsible to save the situation. When we put our face forward like this, it says, I am paying attention to you. Pay attention to me. I'm hearing what you have to say. When we show our whole body now I'm being pulled back. What Savannah is saying is, I'm taking this seriously. Listen to me. She uses very special language. Her body language is congruent with someone who is present. Her siblings, Cameron and Annie are also. They're grieving. Their body language. Annie's looking down, emotional. Look at you see sadness in the chin. Sadness is one of the hardest emotions to fake. We see it on Annie's face right here. What we don't see, if they were involved in any way and knew what was going on would be contempt, Nancy. So I appreciate you calling me back to body language contempt is this. It's one smirk on one side of our face. Bernie Madoff did it. We had a former vice president of the United States doing this move a lot. This is moral superiority. There's seven emotions that we all have. Seven. I did the wrong number. And happiness, sadness, fear, surprise, anger, contempt and disgust. Contempt shows up when someone is keeping a secret and they know something they're not revealing. Every single person that we have talked about with you, Nancy, over the years that they had a missing loved one that then ended up being arrested for killing that person. Every single one from Scott Peterson to Chris Watts to you name the Jodi Arias leaked contempt in these moments. We're not seeing it here and we're not seeing smiling. Well, look at Chris Watts when he did his big, huge video. When my wife and kids are missing, Shanin and Celeste and Bella, he's smiling. Where was fear and sadness? Here we have fear and sadness. This is grief. This is a family who is exhausted, holding it together the best they can.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. So we've got searches going down right now on the side of the road. We have searches going down around Nancy Guthrie's neighborhood right now as we go to air. The good news is Dave Mack. I did not see any cadaver dogs?

[Dave Mack]

No, they're actually looking for evidence they believe was tossed out. Now, you mentioned earlier about how you had a case where the person wore other clothing and got rid of it. Well, we looked at this video, and you can tell those gloves. He's double wearing gloves, Nancy. Those things are so tight. Other parts of the clothing looks really tight, too. Obvious. It seems obvious. He could possibly have been tossing his stuff. But you know what, Nancy? They're not just in the foothills outside of Nancy Guthrie's house. They are also searching Rio Rico. I'm talking about the FBI and the. The sheriff's deputies. They're still searching around Rio Rico. Last night, where we had the person pulled over, we had them searching houses, his garage. Well, they're still searching down there, Nancy. We can't leave that out. They're searching roadways.

[Nancy Grace]

That's telling me something. Dave Mack, Chris McDonough. That's another search happening right now. That tells me that's part of the reason they pulled that guy over. Let's take a listen to the guy pulled over last night.

[Chris McDonough]

They helped me against my will.

[Dave Mack]

They my rights until two hours later. Okay. You know, my wrist is.

[Janine Driver]

Did you have any idea. Do you know who Nancy Gothard.

[Dave Mack]

No.

[Nancy Grace]

That is Carlos Palazzo. He is a delivery driver for GLS and DoorDash. That tells me something. Chris McDonough. It's not just him. It's the location. That location. They're out there searching. They were interested in him because he loosely fit the description and. And the location.

[Chris McDonough]

Yeah, absolutely. And that may give us an insight into. The feds may have some type of digital footprint somewhere, and they're chasing that footprint. But what it also adds is there's a vehicle in play here. And when you see the suspect walking up to the porch, he comes from the area of the driveway when he first walks up and his head's down. So everything's about identity right there for him. But he's coming from the area of the driveway. When he looks to the left, he's actually looking through the glass portion of the exterior door to see if there's anybody or anything inside that he can see. And so this guy is not very sophisticated. If you look at his gun holster, that's a revolver holster. It's not a semi automatic holster. So that also tells us he's not very sophisticated around guns. And the fact that he's wearing multiple layers of gloves, that tells us that's going to be very difficult to get your finger through the trigger area of that gun. So it's almost like he just kind of put this kit on, you know, as if he, you know, wasn't quite familiar with guns, et cetera, et cetera. So I can see the Feds chasing that down, too.

[Nancy Grace]

Yes. Not sophisticated at all. I've never seen anybody carry a gun like that. And quite quickly back out to Josh Colesrood. Did you hear Palazzo whining? He didn't get his Miranda rights for two hours. He wasn't arrested. What is he whining about?

[Josh Colesrud]

Yeah. Yep. Carlos was detained. He was not arrested. And when somebody is detained and they're free to leave, like he was told that he was. Miranda warnings are not required. Now, what is required to detain somebody? It's reasonable suspicion that is, you know, one step below probable cause, which is what police officers need to arrest somebody. Now, if the police had probable cause, he would never have gotten home last night. He would have been arrested and booked. Now, we don't know why the police officers were talking to him. It could have been their suspicion that he was connected to the ransom notes or to the kidnapping. But until they give us additional information, we're just going to have to guess.

[Nancy Grace]

If you know or think you know anything about Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, please dial 1-800-225-5324. Or if you wish to remain anonymous. 520-882-7463. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight. Good night, friend.