SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MISSING: DAY 37

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MISSING: DAY 37

Date: March 9, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace centers on the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, mother of broadcaster Savannah Guthrie, now missing for 37 days. The panel discusses new developments, including the discovery of a vandalized utility box near Nancy's home, theories about signal jamming, and the potential for a "breakthrough" in the case, possibly via digital forensics or FBI analysis of tattoo/graffiti evidence. The episode combines expert insight from digital analysts, law enforcement professionals, and forensic experts to explore leads and bust common misconceptions swirling around the case.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Vandalized Utility Box: Red Herring or Critical Clue?

[02:37–16:40]

• Discovery & Theories: A utility box near Nancy Guthrie's home was vandalized around the time of her disappearance. Initial speculation was that this might relate to a signal jammer used to disable Wi-Fi/cameras during an abduction.
  • Nancy Grace: "What if the utility box was the cause for the blackout? And what was protruding from the porch guy's pocket actually was a walkie-talkie to an accomplice?" [05:18]
• Expert Analysis:
  • James Bass (Digital forensic analyst): Skeptical the box is involved, identifying it as likely a telephone junction box, not directly tied to Wi-Fi or home security feeds.
    • "Not possible as presented. [...] If it had been destroyed or in some way altered, the connection would not have been intermittent. It would have been out completely." [07:05]
  • Brian Fitzgibbons (Security director): Suggests the act was likely just vandalism or copper theft, not an attempt to disrupt communications during an abduction.
    • "If that line were cutting the WI fi, the data coming in from the street to the house, there would be a persistent outage." [09:45]
    • "I can't imagine that's a high value target in relation to an abduction case." [10:26]
  • Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensic investigator): Stresses checking for physical evidence (tool marks, fingerprints) on the box for possible links to the crime, but overall thinks the utility box's involvement is unlikely.
    • "Are there any primarks on that box...what kind of knowledge or level of knowledge did they have about this?" [12:12]

Notable Quote:

• Nancy Grace (on motives for box tampering):
  “Why does anybody do anything? I mean, in my mind, I would look for a logical motive... Why would somebody crack open a utility box? For what? There's nothing to steal. I guess the same reason people throw stones and knock out street lights." [13:54]

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2. Breakthrough Hopes: Digital Forensics and Data Trails

[20:18–30:03]

• Cell Tower Dumps & Location Data:
  • James Bass explains how law enforcement leverages Google and Apple data to trace suspect location histories ("Google takeout"/"GTO" requests), even tracking second-by-second location pins.
    • "As part of their service, they offer Google Maps and location services. And in the background, they're going to drop a location pin sometimes every five to 30 seconds." [22:02]
    • "That data is collected and it's retained forever. Until you go in and tell them to delete that information, it will forever reside." [23:08]
• Data Limitations:
  • Devices off or in airplane mode are invisible; but "burner phone" anonymization is very limited in the modern digital era due to activation and payment requirements.
    • "If the device is turned off, we're not going to get anything from it." [25:15]
    • "Most people...could get a completely anonymous phone...Nowadays, nothing's really anonymous." [26:58]
• Apple vs. Google:
  • Both companies collect similar tracking data; Apple stores more on-device, but location history can often be subpoenaed from both.
    • "Nothing that they're all collecting in general, they collect the same data. Google, they save more, they focus a little...Apple focuses a little bit more on anonymity and keeping your data on your device." [28:34]
• Investigative Direction:
  • Nancy Grace and Joseph Scott Morgan both believe a digital lead is most likely the "breakthrough" alluded to by investigators, though DNA evidence or traditional police work could be involved.

Notable Quotes:

• Nancy Grace:
  "It's gotta be digital. I think it's digital." [29:00]
• Joseph Scott Morgan:
  "I think they've been trying to unspool this DNA information for some time...But as we stand right now, I would be leaning probably into the digital data that we're talking about because no one travels this world without one of these damn millstones that we have around our electronic neck, you know, with these phones." [30:03]

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3. Investigation Techniques: Old-School vs. High-Tech

[30:54–35:13]

• Traditional Policing:
  • When digital trails run cold, the focus returns to neighborhood canvassing, pressuring known criminal elements, and raising the reward pool to spur tips.
    • Joseph Scott Morgan: "This is going to be a matter of...good old fashioned police work where they're putting pressure points along the way...to get somebody to roll over." [31:47–33:06]
• Suspect Profile:
  • Discussion about whether this was the work of a burglar gone wrong or a planned kidnapper: Consensus that this isn’t a typical burglary but a targeted abduction.

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4. Tattoo and Graffiti Analysis: A High-Tech Lead

[33:55–38:29]

• FBI TAG Team:
  • Law enforcement is leveraging the FBI’s Tattoo and Graffiti (TAG) analysis team to analyze a partial tattoo seen on the suspect on surveillance footage.
    • Nancy Grace: "It's called tag. Tag Tattoo and Graffiti Team...It's a team of cryptanalysts, the only one of its kind in the US helping law enforcement." [35:13]
  • Modern databases now allow image-based searches of tattoos, vastly improving suspect identification despite partial or blurry images.
    • Brian Fitzgibbons: "...the FBI...is moving towards a tattoo database that’s image searchable as opposed to the text searchable format that exists within...NCIC." [37:40]
• Tattoo as an Investigative Tool:
  • Tattoos can link suspects to organized crime or known offender groups.
    • Panel discusses methods of enhancing low-res images using AI and connecting to huge national tattoo databases.

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5. Dismissing the “Chilean Theft Gang” Theory

[40:12–47:16]

• Dave Mack and James Bass both strongly refute the theory that a South American crime group targeting wealthy athletes is involved.
  • These gangs aim to avoid confrontation and surveil to ensure homes are empty; Nancy Guthrie’s abduction does not fit the MO.
    • "A possible foiled robbery or something...but that’s just not what seems to be the case at all. It appears that this was a targeted kidnapping, not a robbery gone bad." [41:42–45:58]
    • Brian Fitzgibbons: "To think that this took place at a time when the burglar was sure that Nancy Guthrie would be home certainly refutes that point." [46:32]

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6. Theories on Medical Event vs. Abduction

[49:00–54:22]

• Heart Attack Theory:
  • Nancy Guthrie’s health history (blood thinners, pacemaker) has raised the possibility she suffered a heart attack during a break-in and was removed by panicked intruders.
    • Joseph Scott Morgan: "...whether or not she had a heart attack...it’s almost impossible for anyone to make that kind of diagnosis at this point in time. Hopefully, we won’t have to make that diagnosis." [49:26]
• Blood Evidence & Staging:
  • Discusses blood evidence found at the scene—its size, pattern, and what it suggests about Nancy’s position (standing, kneeling, carried?).
    • James Bass: "[...] it looks to have be an aspirated pattern, you know, a cough or, you know, a sneeze...I believe there's, I believe that to be the...origin of the pattern, but that's just my, my opinion." [51:44]
    • Joseph Scott Morgan: “...the blood in the larger droplets, it appears...to be aerated...which means that it’s coming out of the nasal pharynx area...but with this, it's in that one focal area right there and it stops. And we don't know what happened at that point...” [52:31]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Not possible as presented. ...If it had been destroyed or in some way altered, the connection would not have been intermittent. It would have been out completely.”
  – James Bass discussing the utility box, [07:05]

• "You don't want to encounter someone in a robbery...it really does not fit what you would expect to see."
  – James Bass on the theft gang theory, [45:58]

• "No one travels this world without one of these damn millstones that we have around our electronic neck, you know, with these phones."
  – Joseph Scott Morgan, [30:03]

• "We may not be able to make out this symbol, but they will."
  – Nancy Grace on the FBI’s TAG team, [38:29]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:37 — Vandalized utility box and introduction of the case
• 07:05 — Expert analysis: functionality of utility/phone box
• 20:18 — Role of Google/Apple in tracking suspects
• 22:02–24:59 — Deep dive into Google data tracking and law enforcement methods
• 29:00–33:06 — Discussion: digital versus traditional leads
• 33:55–38:29 — FBI tattoo/graffiti analysis explained
• 40:12–47:16 — Disputing the Chilean theft gang theory
• 49:00–54:22 — Considerations of medical event, blood evidence, and scene analysis

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Final Takeaways

1. Utility box: Probably not related to the kidnapping; more likely plain vandalism or an unrelated theft attempt.
2. Digital evidence (Google/Apple location, cellular data) is the most promising avenue, pending device access.
3. The tattoo spotted on the suspect (enhanced via FBI TAG team) could provide a major breakthrough if matched.
4. No evidence of robbery—valuable items/jewelry left behind—strongly suggests a targeted abduction rather than a burglary gone wrong.
5. Medical emergencies (e.g., heart attack and the subsequent removal of Nancy) are considered but can’t be proven at this stage.
6. Multiple law enforcement teams (FBI, security analysts, forensics) are working parallel tracks, and the panel expects a digital or physical clue to eventually crack the case.

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If you have any information on Nancy Guthrie's whereabouts, contact 1-800-225-5324 or anonymously at 520-8827-463. A reward of $1.2+ million is currently offered. [54:22]

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Summary compiled in the urgent, analytical tone characteristic of Nancy Grace, with direct expert quotations and context from the episode’s expert lineup.

Transcript

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[Nancy Grace]

with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing day 37. This as investigators say they are closing in on a breakthrough in the search for Nancy Guthrie. A vandalized utility box near her home now taking center stage as tag, tattoo and graffiti specialists weigh in on the search for the kidnapper. And also all that about data dumps, forget it. Now it's all on Google and Apple to save the day. I'm Nancy Grace. This is CRIME Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. This is a plea from the public to bring Nancy Guthrie home. They desperately want their mother home. Day 37, a day none of us thought would happen. So many legal eagles like myself believe this case would be solved and Nancy Guthrie would be home by day 37. We understand that investigators are stating that they are, quote, coming close to a breakthrough as a vandalized utility box takes center stage. And something called tag, tattoo and and graffiti specialists coming into play. What can Google and Apple do for the Guthrie family? Now straight out to Dave Mack, crime Stories investigative reporter. Tell me about the vandalized utility box. What happened?

[Dave Mack]

Nancy? This was discovered as you see this, just near Nancy Guthrie's home and it happened around the time that she went missing. This is the box. It's in her neighborhood and it's very close by. You can see the vandalism. You can see it was hacked, it was torn up. And this is something that, you know, doesn't occur naturally. This is somebody intentionally, willfully did something to this box and could have caused major damage to those in the neighborhood with regard to their their cameras on their home for security, their cell phones and their wi fi. This box could damage everything.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, you got to wonder, let's just make a logical conclusion here. This is from our friends at wcnc. By the way, when was it vandalized? Why is there special interest now? How close is it to Nancy Guthrie's home? Straight out to James Bass, joining us, digital forensic analyst, expert witness with Evidence Solutions Inc. There in Tucson, James Bass. Thank you for being with us tonight, James. A lot has been made of a so called signal jammer, a signal jammer that many people believe was used. Let's see a shot of the protruding antenna from the porch guy's pocket, please. Control room. James, Much has been made about was a signal jammer used because neighbors are being questioned by the FBI too, in particular near her home about a interruption, a disruption in their wi FI service the night Nancy goes missing. What if the utility box was the cause for the blackout? And what was protruding from the porch guy's pocket actually was a walkie talkie to an accomplice? Now, hold it. You're the digital expert, not me. Let me try to phrase this in the proper vernacular. Would the utility box having been attacked, throw out WI fi to Nancy and her neighbors? And can we prove that or deduce that from the fact that the neighbors had the blackout and the guy walks up? Apparently. Let's see him walk up and he's like, whoa, the camera's working. What? It's like he didn't expect the camera to be working. And then he has to backtrack and try to cover it. He's like, what? Maybe I can beat it to death. Then he tries to cover it with foliage. Did he blow out the utility box and then got the big surprise when maybe he saw the camera blinking or the lens moving or some acknowledgement of motion sensor working? What do you think, James Bass? Possible.

[James Bass]

Not possible as presented. I don't believe it's possible. The utility box that was shown appears to be some sort of telephone signal box switching box that would carry a telephone signal, not necessarily your fiber optic or WI fi or be connected to your WI fi.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, hold on just a second. Bass. Look at this picture. Let me see all those wires from our friends at WC and see how can you look at that and tell me what kind of wire it is? They all look the same to me. How do you know that's a phone wire?

[James Bass]

Just pretty much based on the setup and the connections, you're looking at what is typical for a telephone, landline wiring box, or, you know, other data infrastructure. If it had been destroyed or in some way altered, the connection would not have been intermittent. It would have been out completely. If you sever a fiber optic cable, there's no plugging it back in once it's broken. It's broken until it's repaired. And there would have been a consistent outage that we would have known about.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, that just made a lot of sense. If, in fact, those are phone wires, and I'm not altogether convinced that you can look at them from 2,000 miles away and tell me they're a phone wire. Convince me that's a phone wire.

[James Bass]

Just looking at the. The setups, like, say it's not a good picture that we. There's nothing that's been released about the particular infrastructure that would be consistent with a. With a telephone service junction box. There's There's a lot of wires involved in.

[Nancy Grace]

Why are they calling it a utility box as opposed to a phone box? Or is it all one and the same?

[James Bass]

The telephone, Utilities.

[Nancy Grace]

Thank you. James Bass. They did not teach this in law school. This is from our friends at wcnc. Well, there's another issue. Straight out to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us. Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security. He leads an entire team of people dedicated to finding missing people all around the world. Former Marine, Iraqi War vet. Says it all. Fitz, Gibbons. Another thing. What would be the motive for cracking open a utility box like that? There's nothing to steal. Or is there? I mean, you'd wonder why people would go on to abandoned houses. There's nothing to steal, right? Well, they're in there getting copper wiring, which is very expensive. So what would be in a utility box to steal? Why crack it open? Unless you're trying to affect the WI fi or the phone service in the area.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

As James Bass just aptly pointed out, if that line were cutting the WI fi, the data coming in from the street to the house, there would be a persistent outage. This would have been something that would have. A utility team would have had to come out and repair. Okay, so what we're looking at here is likely some kind of vandalism that took place with no specific motive related to the Nancy Guthrie abduction.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, well, let me follow through with that. Brian Fitzgibbons, you said no specific motive related to Nancy Guthrie's investigation. What about any motive at all? What's the motive for cracking it open?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah, I mean, this does look like a telephone box. Just the size of those, you know, wires and cables in there. Hey, what could the motive be? To take out phone service? You know, that's certainly not going to do anything to disrupt Internet or cell service in 2026. I can't imagine that that's a high value target in relation to an abduction case.

[Nancy Grace]

Unless someone tried to. Hey, guys. Big thank you to WCNC for that video. Unless this. Joe Scott Morgan. Guys, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University. Author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of the hit podcast Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. But for our purposes, he's a forensics expert and a death investigator with literally thousands of death scene investigations under his belt. Joe Scott. Unless, I mean, there's nothing to steal. Why crack it open? So, let's think this through. Could the perp have thought it would disrupt the WI fi and then have to back up with a WI fi jammer?

[Dave Mack]

Or.

[Nancy Grace]

Because we Know, there was a disruption around the time she goes missing. And, you know, one house, two houses, coincidence, three houses, pattern. So we know something was going on with the WI fi. We know it was at the time Nancy was kidnapped from her home. Is it possible the perp vandalized that in an attempt to disrupt WI fi and then backed it up with a jammer? And if so, what forensic evidence could be obtained from the box or maybe even the wires inside? That's going to be tough.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, it would be. You know, one of the interesting things about that box, Nancy, is that when you're working a scene, you have to assess the totality of the evidence, also the status of the evidence. That box, everybody's saying, well, it could have approximated the time in which Mrs. Guthrie went missing. I want to know more information about the physical standing of the box and what I mean by that. Are there any primarks on that box that might indicate some type of particular tool that was used to open it? And also, one of the things that we see when we work cases involving tool marks to kind of age. Age a break in is we'll look for, like, oxidation or rust that shows up on particular areas, like, how long has this thing been pried open? And also going back to whoever administrates that box, you know, like, whether it's a phone company or local utility company, when was the last time they made a pass around that box? Who made notes about that box? And then when you get into the interior of the thing, it looks like just a mass of, like, wires going everywhere. Disordered, multicolored spaghetti, if you will. Did somebody actually go in there with snips and try to cut wires? Again, another interesting area relative to tool marks, and were they specifically targeting anything in there? And that goes to the mind of the person. What kind of knowledge or level of knowledge did they have about this? One more thing. Do they have anybody in this area that the police are familiar with that goes around burglarizing areas and they attack these kind of boxes? Do you have anybody that has a certain set of burglary tools that might engage in this behavior? So there's a lot to consider just with the box itself.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, another thing regarding motive, Joe Scott Morgan. Why does anybody do anything? I mean, in my mind, I would look for a logical motive. You go into a home to steal, rape, rob. That's a reason for breaking in. Not a legal reason, but a reason. Why would somebody crack open a utility box? For what? There's nothing to steal. I guess the same Reason people throw stones and knock out street lights or knock down stop signs, I guess for the fun of it. I don't understand that motivation. So that's not a motive. A typical motive that we would look for under the law, but, you know, it's like joyriding just for the hell of it. I like what you just said about had other utility boxes been attacked regarding getting fingerprints from this, regarding your thoughts, were any of the wires severed or cut, which really would indicate someone trying to disrupt WI fi or cell service? How would you look for that in that big tangle of cords? And how can you get prints on the outside of the box and more specifically on the inside of the box?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

It would be very difficult. Just let me give you an idea. If people at home will think about. Say you're holding a large screwdriver in your right hand. Okay. And you want to pop open this BO box, and you're not wearing gloves. One of the things that you would do is say you would take, like, your left hand, stick. Stick the screw, the screwdriver into. Into the panel and try to pry it open. And one of the things people don't think about, perpetrators in particular, we have all the time in the world to examine these areas. Perpetrators trying to go, go, go, go, go, go. As they're trying to leverage this thing to pop it, they're touching and contacting these areas. Only problem with that is, is that the exterior of this thing is not very well protected. So fingerprints might degrade in this area depending upon the amount of time they've been there. You know, we. We work on what are called fatty lipids that transfer the friction ridge imprints and give us a negative image of the imprint or the fingerprint on the surface there. So. And inside that tangle, Nancy, good luck with all of that. I think that it would be very, very difficult to raise a print in that area. I'd be more interested probably in tool marks on any of those areas. And have they been clipped away with some kind of specific tool?

[Nancy Grace]

Wow. Jackie here in the studio just had a great idea. We're all trying to figure out what would be a motive. She says that there are copper wires in the utility boxes.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yep.

[Nancy Grace]

That's money. That's a lot of money. People vandalize all the time to get copper. That said, investigators stating that tonight they are very close, as they say, to a breakthrough. What breakthrough? That's all we're learning. Does it have anything to do with this utility box?

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Speaking of the jamming, a lot has developed over the weekend. Straight out to James Bass. James, I'm really overwhelmed with your analysis regarding Google and Apple. I kept saying day one, get a data dump. Get a data dump. Which would be the FBI's Cellular Analysis Survey team cast getting all the information of cell phones or not just cell phones, nav systems, Uconnects in cars, iPads that may be in the car that are trying to connect any device while it may not be hooked into wi fi that is quote touching WI fi as it goes by, you know, when you're trying to connect, let's just say at the airport, all of these different wi fi, you see them and you may try to connect to them. If you do connect, you touch. So there's not just that, but you're saying Google and Apple may very well save the day. Google's already saved the day once by their scratching technique where they go from day 10 to 9 to 8 to 7 to 6, 5, they find the porch guy. It's very, very delicate because you don't want to erase. Day five when you're scratching off day six. That said, you believe Google and or Apple can help in a very, very different way. Try to dummy down for me and explain it again. They didn't teach this in law school.

[James Bass]

When you can get a hold of the cell tower dumps that everybody is familiar with, that's going to give you a list of all the devices that have connected or touched that tower, essentially. And once you establish a pattern and you narrow down your focus, you're able to identify one, two or three specific devices with that, then you're going to try to identify this person a little bit further. Once you can do that, you can go to Google and ask for what's commonly referred to as a Google takeout, a gto. And it's information that Google Collects about you as a user that's freely available to anyone. You can download your own data and see what's there. But of particular interest would be the location data. As part of their service, they offer Google Maps and location services. And in the background, they're going to drop a location pin sometimes every five to 30 seconds.

[Nancy Grace]

What do you mean in the background?

[James Bass]

It's not something you're asking it to do. It's something that's done completely in the background. The user never sees it, and most users don't even know that it it's happening. But that data is collected and it's retained forever. Until you go in and tell them to delete that information. It will forever reside.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, you totally freaked me out when you told me this example. James. Guys, James Bass is a digital forensic analyst and expert witness with Evidence Solutions Inc. There in Tucson. When you said that, for instance, Google and Apple are tracking me to the extent or all of us. If you park your car and walk into Walmart, they go, oh, she parked her car. Explain that. When you told me the first time, I was too busy scribbling notes to even understand what you're saying. And how can this help me find

[James Bass]

the kidnapper with the background location services I'll give you. For instance, I was at a task force doing some counterterrorism work. All civilian clothes, nondescript building. It was a top secret SCI skiff, a building you can talk about on secret information. And the facility we were at was not advertised. There's no sign its existence was top secret. But because I had a phone years later, I was able to go back and tell you every day when I left my house, the route I took to get to work, where I parked my car and where I left my phone. And that was done completely in the background without the input or user of the device.

[Nancy Grace]

James. Including the top secret location?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yes, ma'. Am.

[James Bass]

Right there in the parking lot front door of the building.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, I guess the Chinese know that now. Thanks for blurting it out. That said, what if the pro has the phone turned off?

[James Bass]

Well, if the device is turned off, we're not going to get anything from it. If the device was on but not being used, you know, if you had the device powered on, threw it into the floor of the car, or put it in his armrest and was driving, then you would. If you can identify the device and if they were using the Google location services, if that was available and enabled, then you're going to be able to go back. Once you identify them, send A search warrant to Google for that information. And you'll see their entire life, everywhere they park, where they live, you know, if you're driving, walking, they make these assumptions and they use the state in the background for targeted advertisements to send you to what are considered nearby locations, you know, so that's what it's used for. But on the investigative side, we can timeline and geolocate somebody to within a 3 to 10 meter radius with a sub second timestamp. We can put you there to the millisecond at a particular time and day.

[Nancy Grace]

What are the phones in airplane mode?

[James Bass]

Unfortunately, if it's in airplane mode, it's going to disable all of the antennas. It's supposed to disable your gps. Anything that can transmit or receive, it's supposed to disable that. Essentially in airplane mode yourself is a music player.

[Nancy Grace]

What if the parts were using a burner phone? I know all these questions are elementary to you, like they're coming from a fifth grader, but again, they did not teach this at law school. What if the perp had a burner phone? The burner phone shows up on the data dump, then what do we do with that?

[James Bass]

A burner phone as people believe to exist really is not the same thing. Most people in the early part of cellular phones, you could go get a completely anonymous phone and use it and be fine. Nowadays, nothing's really anonymous. An Android or an Apple phone require an email to register and use their services. If you're getting a prepaid phone, you have to pay with a credit card which is attached to a bank. There's, there's all of these safeguards that are put in place that hinder being anonymous.

[Nancy Grace]

Will Google put up a fight to give this tracking information?

[James Bass]

Not with the search warrant? Absolutely not.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, what can you tell me about Apple? How could they help Apple?

[James Bass]

Everyone collects the same information. Apple spends a little bit more time saving it on your phone so that they don't have to be responsible for turning it over anybody. But they also save your routes and your maps and your map searches. So if you enable it, even if you have an iPhone, if you're using Google Android, you know their maps or location services. If you download that app, then it's still going to be saved with Google. Right now Google's mapping service is one of the primary ones everyone uses. And I would strongly suggest they go after this information once they identify the person.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, James, let me ask you this. What can Apple give me that Google cannot give me?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Nothing.

[James Bass]

Nothing that they're all collecting in general, they collect the same data. Google, they save more, they focus a little, I'm sorry, Google, Apple focuses a little bit more on anonymity and keeping your data on your device. But once again, once you identify that person, obtaining the device is, you know, it's going to be your next step. Get the phone and then get the data dump.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor, Forensics and death investigator. What do you believe? I mean it's very cryptic that one of the investigators inside the investigation stated that they are close to a breakthrough. I mean it's got to be digital. I think it's digital. It could be because of that mixed DNA that was found in the home. Maybe they're getting closer to that. It's called stranger DNA. It's not anybody connected to her, related to her that works for her is typically in her home. It's digital, it's DNA. Or maybe it's good old fashioned police work like hey my neighbor, blah blah blah and a some type of eyewitnesses come forward. I don't know what it is but if you were on this team, what do you believe they should be doing right now? In addition to what Bass just said, getting about 3 inches up Google and Apple's tailpipe.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

I could listen to Bass talk all day long. Wow. Really breaks it down in simple terms. I love that. As far as from an investigative perspective, I think they've been trying to unspool this DNA information for some time. We've gotten little, little bits that have come out about the mixture and about. It seems as though that's coming to a dead end. Of course we don't know what else they have at this point in time. However, I have to say Nancy, as we stand right now, I would be leaning probably into the digital data that we're talking about because no one travels this world without one of these damn millstones that we have around our electronic neck, you know, with these phones. And so at some point in time they're going to have tagged these people or tagged somebody in that area. I think that they're doing a deeper dive. They're calling in.

[Nancy Grace]

Pull up please. I agree with you, but the possibility of a walkie talkie suggests to me that they turn their phones off. But let's just pretend, let's just pretend somebody had a cell phone on, somebody had a uconnect. I don't know what you drive Joe Scott, but our beat up minivan has uconnect in it. So I guess that would work. A nav system would work. You Just heard Bass talking about the location data. It could be a number of things. Not a walkie talkie. That will not work unless it's somehow hooked into a cell phone. Some of them are, but that suggests the cell phone was turned off. So let's pretend the cell phone was turned off. Let's go with that. What avenue would you travel now if the cell phone had been turned off? Forget all the data.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah. Well, what, what I'm thinking about right now, and I've been thinking about it for some time, is relative to any kind of assets that the police have in this area, all the locals, anybody that's involved in any kind of nefarious activity relative to crimes against persons. All right, and when I say crimes against persons, I'm not talking about a regular old burglary. I'm talking about people that do strong armed robberies. They're not afraid to go into homes, get into people's spaces. Because right now this is going to be a matter of, like you said, good old fashioned police work where they're putting pressure points along the way and also couple that with any potential that this, this reward money is going to be raised. What they're trying to do, Nancy, I think, is lean on every potential lead that they have or person that might roll over on somebody out there because they've turned the pressure up significantly. And here's the other thing, Nancy. You know, we, we hear a lot about Pima, we don't hear a lot about the Feds. And as you well know, the feds are notorious for keeping their mouths shut. And there's no telling what kind of, what kind of assets they're bringing to bear because they have so much in their infrastructure that they can use everything from electronics to gang information, Nancy, that they can press, press, press. And I think that that's probably the angle they're working right now.

[Nancy Grace]

Joe Scott, you said look at the usual suspects in the area, but that have robbed or burgled before. But there is no question that the MO of a robber or a burglar is not to take an 84 year old woman out and take him out for a drive. He can't walk past 50 yards. This is absolutely a kidnap and that's a whole nother mindset from a robber or a burglar. And I mean, they had to know she was home or somebody was home when they went in at 2 o' clock in the morning, of course somebody is home. So that takes it out of the robbery and burglary realm for me. But that Said what about it? To you, Fitzgibbons, what do you believe they should be doing right now?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah, I agree with everything that Joe Scott and James Bass just said. And I want to add, okay, one piece.

[Nancy Grace]

Fitz Gibbons. Fitz Gibbons. That doesn't work on crime stories. You can't just say what he said. No.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Well, I want to add one piece about what they can be looking into, which is the tattoo on the perpetrator's arm. And this is something that's been widely talked about, but we haven't talked much about the capabilities that law enforcement has to generate leads off of that. The FBI has a Tattoo and Graffiti analysis team that specializes in analyzing images of tattoos, graffiti symbols, hand signs, anything remotely related to organized crime, extremist groups and the like. And they've got access to to millions upon millions of photos from arrests and bookings all across the country. And even though we have a limited look at the tattoo itself from that ring cam video, we do have the height of the suspect, the location of the tattoo, and the location of the individual himself. So there is enough to at least assist and provide some intelligence into the search.

[Nancy Grace]

It's called tag. Tag Tattoo and Graffiti Team. Tattoo and Graffiti Team operates actually within cryptanalysis and racketeering records. It's there in Quantico at the FBI lab. And it's a team of cryptanalysts, the only one of its kind in the US Helping law enforcement. Now, this is what we know about tag, experienced researchers, and they have access to an incredible library of resources, thousands of distinct symbols and photographs of tattoo and graffiti. For instance, what you see on the neck to the left, you've covered the face is a traditional Chinese character for wind, and it is used quite often. If that had appeared, that would be tracked down. Let's see the next round offered by TAG from Border Patrol. Take a look at this. What you're seeing here is a series a offering of Santeria. On the left, see that? That was in Pittsburgh, and that was deciphered by tag. Then to the top right, that is Tattoo relating to Ms. 13 affiliation. On the bottom left, you see the treetop Peru blood gang affiliation. And at the bottom right, you see an occult drawing of a tattoo. Now, these are graffiti analysis from the National Joint Terrorism Task Force. Now, what TAG does is they look at these, including tattoos, and they can trace them. Tattoos, symbols, other images can reveal so many significant details about a crime, a perp, and they're easy to overlook if they are not immediately identifiable. So how do you go about Brian Fitzgibbons is joining us. One of his expertise. How do you go about enlarging what we're seeing on his wrist and figuring out what portion of a much larger tattoo it is and identifying it? Definitely tag for sure. What else? How do they do it?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah, so that's where the difficulty is going to come in, right, that we only have a small portion of that tattoo visible and the resolution is not so high. So there's going to be some kind of AI assisted enhancement done to this. And I want to add one thing that the FBI, through their next generation identification system is moving towards a tattoo database that's image searchable as opposed to the text searchable format that exists within the NCIC database where a lot of this type of information is stored on bookings and arrests. So they've been developing that system over a course of a number of years. So I think they'll have a very good swath of millions of tattoo photos to analyze this against.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, there is the entire database, but also I want you to look at one more series, what you were seeing here. This is from our friends at U.S. customs and Border Protection. Now this was submitted to them and they identified a scorpion tattoo and General Francisco Villa, AKA Pancho Villa, and he is found on a number of tattoos. So you're going to have to call on these experts to make sense of the tattoo and then track where it came from. Believe it or not, not every tattoo parler will give every tattoo that's heard of certain parlors, certain tattoo artists specialize in, in certain tattoos. And believe me, the FBI is all over it. We may not be able to make out this symbol, but they will. Antonite. A theory has seemingly taken over the Internet and it is that a Chilean theft gang is responsible for Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping. Okay, to you, Dave Mack, Crime stories investigative reporter. There was Travis Kelsey, Patrick Mahone, Bobby Portis, Joe Burrow and other high profile athletes that reportedly were burgled. It's only a robbery if you take it from the person. Burglary is you take it from the structure. Those cases are very different. I don't recall anyone kidnapped in those cases.

[Dave Mack]

There was.

[Nancy Grace]

What can you tell me about this theory?

[Dave Mack]

Well, I can tell you that the one consistent feature to the Chilean, you know, robbery crew is that they apparently just targeted athletes, high profile rich athletes that they, the Chilean robbery group knew when the guy when they were out of town because they knew where they were playing their games and things like that. So the, the homes were targeted at those times when the teams were playing away. I don't know how that fits into an 84 year old woman who can't walk more than 50ft. Also, it's not we have no proof that this was a robbery. You know, that was something that was brought up, a possible foiled robbery or something along those lines. But Nancy, there is no report of any Guthrie's home. There's no report of a robbery. We have heard that idea of a bungled robbery, but that's just not what seems to be the case at all. It appears that this was a targeted kidnapping, not a robbery gone bad. So the Chilean idea that angle really is focused on the high profile nature of the individual. Well, Nancy Guthrie is only high profile because of her daughter in that regard. So I'm not really sure that the Chilean robbery crew holds a lot of water. Just my thoughts.

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[Nancy Grace]

Stories with Nancy Grace James Bass it's the South American theft group satg and that includes Chilean nationals. They've been linked to millions of dollars of stolen goods from wealthy rich U.S. homes. They conduct extensive surveillance that's in common with this. They use jammers which that's really old news. Jammers have been used by robbing crews in LA for a really long time. But the Guthrie's Home location Nancy Guthrie's home is not like a multi millionaire athletes mansion and I'm just very curious. In all of those cases no one was home and it was actually a robbery. None of those gang members wanted to encounter a living person in the home. So what do you make of it?

[James Bass]

I would have to agree with with the opinion that these are probably not related. I'm I'm basing that on the fact just my past criminal investigation experience. You don't want to encounter someone in a robbery. The surveillance that they would have conducted prior to if it had been consistent with the Chilean gang would have identified someone in the home that would have been known ahead of time it just. It really does not fit what you would expect to see.

[Nancy Grace]

What about it?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Fitzgibbons Spot on. And you know, these crews, it's not just limited to Chilean robbery crews all across the United States. This is something that's widely investigated by law enforcement. And there are certainly patterns to it. They utilize, you know, very integrated surveillance techniques. Disguise to go up, to mimic deliveries, to check on patterns, build that pattern of life at that household before they make their hit. So, you know, to think that this took place at a time when the burglar was sure that Nancy Guthrie would be home certainly refutes that point.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, here's the other thing. In all of those cases, items were taken. Not a little old lady items, very expensive items were actually taken from the residents.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

They.

[Nancy Grace]

That did not happen here. Dave Mack in fact, I haven't heard of a single thing taken from the home in a lot of. And I saw someone write this on X AKA Twitter, asking had any of Nancy Guthrie's jewelry been taken? Because in a lot of the photos we see her with Savannah. She's wearing some beautiful jewelry. I think she was wearing it in the video of her at that Mexican restaurant. Let's put pull that up. When Savannah made an Arizona homecoming. That said, I haven't heard a word about missing jewelry. Remember how a Groton watch took center stage in the Lacey Peterson investigation and then a similar watch was pawned. Not the watch, but a similar watch. We haven't heard anything about stolen jewelry or pawn shop searches. I mean, it suggests to me nothing was taken.

[Dave Mack]

No, the only thing we've even seen close to that, Nancy, is last week when we had the feds on the scene going into the home. You remember when they parked the SUV in the. In the garage to shut the door. There were two people later that day that were using a metal detector along the driveway and searching in there. It had like a garden spade and the metal detector looking for something maybe. But no. No report of anything stolen by law enforcement at this point. Now, whether there's something missing, they're not talking about, I mean that could be. But no mention of robbery at all.

[Nancy Grace]

There she is wearing a pendant, bracelets, earrings. Nothing said about missing jewelry. Another theory, Joe Scott Morgan death investigator that's from our friends at Today. A lot has stated has been stated about Mrs. Guthrie suffering a heart attack. Explain your. Your analysis of that theory.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Well, you know this. I think that there's a sleep doc that a guy that. That deals with people that suffer from sleep apnea. This idea of the sudden Shock of being awakened in the middle of the night. And, you know, it gave me pause to think about a comment that you'd made earlier, Nancy, about, you know, they didn't go in with the intention of. Of stealing, but yet we have Mrs. Guthrie that's missing. And not to put words in your mouth, but your feeling is that they went there with a specific intent to remove her. What if they went in and she did have a medical event and they panicked and they removed her from the home for whatever reason? Could a heart attack fit into. Into. Into that? And. And listen, she's. She's certainly somebody that's candidate for that. We know she's on blood thinners. She's hypertensive. She's got a pacemaker that regulates the rhythm of her heart. She's in fragile health, all right? And there are much more robust people out there that would knuckle under. In circumstances like this. So is that a possibility? Well, yeah, I mean, it's a possibility. I mean, we already know something about her relative to. She's had blood that has been deposited outside of that home that can, in fact, be tied back to her. And I have my own thoughts about the nature of that deposition. And, you know, I'm. I've. I've thought about that, you know, extensively, but whether or not she had a heart attack with That's. It's almost impossible for anyone to make that kind of diagnosis at this point in time. Hopefully, we won't have to make that diagnosis. Hopefully, we'll be able to find her alive and safe.

[Nancy Grace]

Hey, Joe.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Scott.

[Nancy Grace]

Look at this. You know, James Bass and I were talking earlier. James, what was your analysis? You brought up the fact that you do not believe, as Jo Scott and I do, that she was standing when this blood was left there, when her blood. This is Nancy Guthrie's blood based on aspiration. Explain your analysis, James.

[James Bass]

Now, I am no blood spatter expert on the record for that. What we were looking at there was just the low velocity there. They're straight down drops that are deposited there around the porch. But what we do see there is that aspiration looks to have be an aspirated pattern, you know, a cough or, you know, a sneeze, something. Something consistent with that. But to be that small, that pattern would be. In my experience, you would be a little bit closer to the surface. So possibly kneeling, possibly being taken out of the house. You know, it. I believe there's. I believe that to be the. The origin of the pattern, but that's just my. My opinion.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

What about it.

[Nancy Grace]

Joe Scott.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, yeah. And it's a highly concentrated area, you know, and, you know, you've been out on plenty of crime scenes, Nancy. You've seen blood, you know, deposited in a lot of. A lot of different locations over a broad area. This is a very contained area where you have that. And the most interesting bit to this is, is the fact that that blood in the larger droplets, it appears, you know, some of those have white centers to them that appears that blood appears to be aerated, which means that it's coming out of the nasal pharynx area. So I don't know if she's been traumatized in the mouth, nose, that sort of thing. I would suspect that she probably has been because the expirated blood that you see there, the tiny little satellite drops in that one cluster, that is consistent with her, you know, coughing, perhaps. And again, I point back. You know, you and I had this discussion not too long ago about another case out of Arizona that we had similar blood deposition, and that was in Travis Alexander. When we take a look at, at his vanity in his bedroom or in his bathroom. Remember, after he had been stabbed, he expirated blood onto that surface, that vanity, you know, where he's probably looking at himself in the mirror. And that's kind of the similar thing that you're seeing here. The blood is aerated. It's being forced out. And you got that one spot right there. But, Nancy, then it stops. And that's the, you know, with Travis Alexander, we have blood everywhere. But with this, it's in that one focal area right there and it stops. And we don't know what happened at that point. Was she, was she in fact covered in some way? Picked up, hauled off? I have no idea. And there's no footprints that we can see, at least in this image of blood either.

[Nancy Grace]

If you know or think you know anything about Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, please dial 1-800-225-5324. Repeat, 800-225-5324. Or if you wish to remain anonymous, 520-8827-4635208827463. There is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of Nancy Guthrie. An arrest, much less a conviction, is not required to get the reward. Nancy Grace, signing off. Good night, friend,

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