Jessica Finn (3:57)

This is actually going to be the third ransom letter that's been sent out. We had the first one that initially came out demanding the $60 million that went out to Kold, Kgon and TMZ. Then we had the second letter that just went out to Kold that came sometime, I wanna say my days are now totally merging together, but sometime, I believe towards the end of last week. And that was basically the message that Savannah had. Savannah and her brother and sister had responded to where Savannah said, we received your message and we understand. We still want the return of our mother. We will pay. And we, you know, this is how we'll have peace. So this is now the third letter that's been sent. It's the second letter that's go tmz. TMZ didn't get the second letter that. That Savannah responded to last week. And basically this letter says that they had tried unsuccessfully to reach out to Annie Guthrie and Annie and Cameron Guthrie, Savannah's brother and sister. And they are saying that they have information to. To show the authorities who this kidnapper is. Exactly. And they want the amount of. Just a bit above the $50,000 FBI reward. They want 60. They wanted one bitcoin, which equals about 66,000. Do for that information. Totally terrifying situation. You don't know what is real, what is fake at this point. And certainly just another kink in this really awful and long saga about finding Nancy Guthrie.

Nancy Grace (5:23)

You know, Jessica Finn, I don't know how you can have your ear to the ground seemingly 24, 7, 365, because the moment this happened, you are all over it. I'm just curious what your take is. Okay. We could talk about y tmz. YK old why k gun forever. Obviously, the person is from Tucson or from the Tucson area that maybe Grew up watching K Gun or Kold. But TMZ has a certain demographic, right? I look at it all the time. I have my. That I read every morning and throughout the day. Some are stuffy and stodgy and some are TMZ where I find out the latest in the world of wrestling and UFC fighters and just all kind of crazy celeb news mixed in with news like this. So that leads me to ideas on who the perp is that they have isolated tmz, Kold, K Gun. But I find it interesting here and I want your take on it. Jessica. Why the. Let me just say. Communicator states that he. She tried to reach Annie and Cameron and couldn't. What do you make of that?

Jessica Finn (6:48)

Well, you know, that is actually a really interesting point. And if you recall, there was that individual, that gentleman, not gentleman that was arrested during. Late, late last week for sending a ransom note to Annie Guthrie specifically. Thank you. To Annie Guthrie and her husband specifically, demanding money. And that guy got arrested for faking it. And you know, he had sent their. That, that letter went straight to. To the siblings. And so I don't know if maybe this person's been following the case and thought let me try the siblings first as the quieter route. But TMZ certainly is the way to get the bullhorn on your note if you really want it reported and you want it reported quickly. It sounds like TMZ has been the way to go because the local affiliates were a little bit more close to the best and were a little bit more slow to report that they had received those ransom notes, whereas TMZ has a little bit. Probably has a much bigger team of attorneys and people guiding them as to what they can and cannot say.

Nancy Grace (7:50)

You know what I also find interesting? And let me throw this to Matthew Lopez. He is the owner of the largest criminal defense law firm in this jurisdiction, arizona@matthew Lopez.com Matthew, I noticed that this communicator stated that he tried. He. She tried unsuccessfully to reach Cameron Guthrie, sister Annie Guthrie. He didn't mention Savannah. Hello. She's been posting on Insta. Why not reach her on Insta? Be so easy, right?

Matthew Lopez (8:29)

Yeah, it would be easy. And that kind of leads me to believe that it may not be true. And he wants to get to TMZ because he knows that the masses watch TMZ and they read tmz. I, I'm, I'm very skeptical about paying somebody for information. To date, we haven't had any proof of life. We haven't had any follow up Communications about any of the, the, the, the, the ransom. We have no reason to believe that the original ransom was even true. So why should we even believe that this second demand for one bitcoin, there's some legitimacy to it that I, I, I would, if, if I was advising the family, I would say, look, you know, let's not start going down this hole, right? We could, this could spiral out of control to one thing, leads to another and another and another of just a fictitious hoax of ransoms and requests and demands, and it just does not pass the smell test for me.

Nancy Grace (9:27)

And Matthew Lopez, guys give him a hard time because he defends criminals and he knows they're criminals, but he has dealt with so many criminals, he can definitely smell a rat. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, this person wanting 66 grand has the. If it's real, has the ability. Fuck. Okay. Brian Fitzgibbons joining us from USPA nationwide security. His team goes all over the world locating missing people. What do you make of it? This guy has the ability, if it's real, to save the life of Nancy Guthrie. But he's using her. He's bartering his alleged knowledge when he could just save her life and get the 50 grand. If it's real.

Brian Fitzgibbons (10:21)

Key phrase, if it's real. Right. This is. With all the media attention 247 on this case, I have serious doubts that this new note to TMZ is, in fact, authentic. You know, $66,000 aligns with the 50k that the FBI is offering. The. The obvious question would be asked, if they had real information, why would they not bring that to the FBI and cash in on the 50k? This, this will be immediately investigated. But I believe that this is just yet another distraction and what's turned into a bit of a media circus here.

Nancy Grace (11:04)

And Brian Fitzgibbons, if it's not real, he can go down just like Colella did for his fake ransom that he texted to the family. He just got charged under 18 USC and he's facing felony charges by the feds, and they don't play. So if this guy's lying, he can go join Killella for a little tea party. Agree?

Brian Fitzgibbons (11:29)

Yeah, I mean, I would defer to the defense attorney here on that one, but I would think that the feds would absolutely prosecute this in some way if it turns out that this is not authentic.

Nancy Grace (11:49)

Crime stories with nancy grace, For those of you that went to sleep last night thinking, ah, finally a crack in the case. We're gonna bring Nancy Guthrie home alive, then woke up to your hopes dashed this morning. Join us. We all feel the same. Overnight, there was a flurry of activity when SWAT teams decked with shields and full SWAT tech gear rolled out for the first time since Guthrie goes missing. That was significant. Taking off in armored vehicles. They all gathered from two, at least two jurisdictions. The location was kept away from the media. It was not reported. Then they descended a person taken into detainment. This morning, we learn he is released. Joining me in all star panel to make sense of what we are learning, straight out to Dave Mack, crime stories investigative reporter. Dave, what happened?

Dave Mack (13:04)

Minutes, Nancy. Minutes after the FBI released the pictures and the video of the suspect at the door, the FBI and the sheriff's department was flooded with tips from everywhere. Within a matter of minutes, the SWAT team gets loaded up and heads straight for Annie Guthrie's house and neighborhood. They're going door to door, talking to neighbors. They're looking through the bushes. They're looking in storage sheds. They were everywhere for hours yesterday. And as you mentioned, Carlos Palazzo is not necessarily pulled over. He was being followed by a number of law enforcement in Rio Rico, which is about 58 miles south of Tucson, about 15 minutes from the Mexican border. And he's near his home when he stops the car and says, hey, why are you guys following me? They then, they being law enforcement, detained Carlos and began a search of his vehicle. They search his house, they searched his garage. And by the way, Nancy, search warrants. They had search warrants already prepared when they arrived at Carlo's house, at his residence, they bashed in the door. They broke a garage door. They looked all over the place. We thought we have a suspect in custody. And two hours later, Carlos was released.

Nancy Grace (14:39)

Jessica Finn joining a senior investigative reporter, US Sun. Not only that, as they law enforcement was searching the property of Carlos Palazuelos, they had hostage negotiators on the standby a few blocks away. They really believed that Nancy was somewhere nearby. And then hopes dashed. And I don't want to hear one bad word about their efforts. I'm talking to you, Lopez, because they're out there beating the bushes. They're trying. This guy may have fit a description. There may have been something about him that tipped off law enforcement, but it was a detainment, not an arrest. They questioned him. They, they searched the location thoroughly and they let him go. Okay, hold. Hold on, Jessica. Matt Lopez joining us from this jurisdiction, Arizona. He is a veteran criminal defense attorney. He is the owner of the largest criminal defense law firm in Arizona. You can find him@Matthew Lopez.com Matthew, much was made last night. He was detained, is at an arrest. Could he leave? Did he get his Miranda rights? Explain detainment under the US Supreme Court view of it.

Matthew Lopez (16:03)

So he was detained. It's my understanding his brand of rights were not read for a couple of hours after this stop. If he is, they're not asking if he's not under arrest, and they're not asking questions exactly relating to the incident. So emphasis on under arrest. If he's free to go, they don't have to read the Miranda. Right. So he's a. He's a person of interest. From my understanding, and based off the video that I watched this morning, they were simply just asking him questions about his identity. And what Mr. Puelos claimed is they asked him questions about his study for about two hours, and then they just released him. The vehicle that he was driving in is at his residence right now. And from what I understand, they weren't able to connect any dots relating Carlos to this incident. So I don't know where. Why they pulled him over, I have no idea. That doesn't make any sense to me. But it seems to me like, at least as we stand here today, he's not connected to the incident.

Nancy Grace (17:00)

Guys, that video of Mr. Palazzo is from our friends at CBS News. Let's take another look at him, and I'd like to compare him to the masked intruder at Nancy Guthrie's home. Okay, look at him. He's got a mustache. He's got a goatee. He's got a little bit of a beard. He is light but swarthy. He has dark hair. Now, look at this guy. Let's keep looking at this guy. And let's look at the intruder from several different angles. I can see the similarity in the eyes, and I want to get that shot of the mask where you can see somewhat of a mustaches. There you go. There you go. None of these are. You know, this is not taken in a photography studio. Okay, so we're working with what we've got. It apparently has a little bit of a mustache showing and a little bit of what would appear to be a soul patch or a beard. Now let's look at Palazzo again. I see why law enforcement was looking at him. Okay, back to Jessica Finn, joining us, senior investigative reporter, the US Son who's been on the case since Nancy Guthrie went missing. What is your version of what happened last night? Because we're getting. Well, they're not necessarily divergent. There are just additional facts in different reports. For instance, everything Dave Max said Was correct. But yet we know the hostage unit was on standby. A mobile hostage negotiator team was on standby, which means they thought Nancy would be in the vicinity of Palozuelos. Okay, that was not meant to be. What more can you tell us, Jessica Finn?

Jessica Finn (18:51)

Yeah, it certainly looked last night like we were going to possibly be bringing Nancy home overnight. And unfortunately, that, of course, didn't happen. From what we understand, Carlos's parents live in Tucson. They live kind of in the vicinity of Nancy Guthrie. So it makes sense that there's a lot of different connections between him and the Tucson area that Nancy is in, including that his parents live there. He is a delivery driver. He drops off packages directly in Nancy Guthrie's neighborhood. And he, of course, fits physically, from what we can see, from what our. Our eyes can tell us is he fits the similarities in the description of what we see in the perpetrator in that video. So clearly, there was a good reason that law enforcement had to connect him to that area. He possibly even dropped off packages to Nancy's home. Specifically, he was asked by the media last night in interviews after he was released, did you deliver a package to Nancy's home? And he said, look, I don't know. I could have. I may have. But clearly, once law enforcement did a deep dive into his. Into his history and his identity and his home that he appears to share with his mother, they eventually decided that he was not the guy, at least not right now. And they decided. Decided to release him. They had sent out the FBI last night, had the SWAT team out. They had hostage negotiators out. And it reached a real fever pitch, probably around 11 Eastern Eastern Time, that it seemed like something was going to happen. And of course, at the end of the night, by the time we all woke up in the morning, it was determined that he was released.

Nancy Grace (20:31)

Dave Mack, back to you. Crime stories Investigative reporter. Dave, you stated something to the effect of, I don't know why they pulled him over. Well, all right, let's examine that. He is in the area where Nancy Guthrie disappeared. He delivers packages to her neighborhood, which is a small neighborhood and a reclusive neighborhood. So it's not like you deliver packages to East 54th street in downtown Manhattan, where there are thousands and thousands of people on one street. So that there's. That he also loosely fit the description. So what about that, Dave Mack? Did you take into account that he had delivered packages routinely to that neighborhood? And wasn't it just in the last 48 hours? We learned that delivery people Yard people, pool people, landscapers, employees, were all giving buccal or buccal swabs. That's DNA. Remember that?

Dave Mack (21:35)

Absolutely. And maybe I misspoke. But let me point out something, Nancy, that the law enforcement efforts we have all followed these. And I thought it was amazing how quickly from the time the video was released to the public and the pictures that law enforcement was able to get together with search warrant for the home in Rio Rico. We're talking about a search warrant that was all inclusive. Both miss Cars were searched. I mean, they had prepared for this. And it came down very quickly, within minutes of the actual video going public. Also, we know that his mother in law in Tucson, she said that, you know, officers showed up at her door and they told her they being law enforcement, told Josephina, this is Carlos mother in law, that somebody had given them a tip that the lady. This is what she said. They had somebody give a tip that the lady was in my house. I told them, you can go ahead and search my house. There's nobody here. I have nothing to hide. So they were, they being law enforcement, were able to really zero in on Carlos for multiple reasons. As you mentioned, he does look similar to what we see in that video released by the FBI.

Nancy Grace (22:54)

We are also learning that there has been a huge, huge swell of tips being called in. In fact, the FBI has created a unique website for Nancy Guthrie. And we're going to put that up in just one moment. But I want you to see what I believe. Not only the front porch video, but a plea, a heartfelt plea from Savannah Guthrie directly to us.

Nancy Guthrie (23:23)

Hi there, everybody. I wanted to come on and just share a few thoughts as we enter into another week of this nightmare. I just want to say, first of all, thank you so much for all of the prayers and the love that we have felt, my sister and brother and I, and that our mom has felt. Because we believe that somehow, some way, she is feeling these prayers and that God is lifting her. Even in this moment and in this darkest place, we believe our mom is still out there. We need your help. Law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to bring her home, trying to find her. She was taken and we don't know where. And we need your help. So I'm coming on just to ask you, not just for your prayers, but no matter where you are, even if you're far from Tucson, if you see anything, if you hear anything, if there's anything at all that seems strange to you, that you report to law enforcement. We are at an hour of desperation, and we need your help.

Nancy Grace (24:54)

She's right. This is the hour of desperation. Because the ransom we believe has been paid, the deadline to pay it has passed. And if it has been paid, there is no incentive left for the kidnapper to hand over Nancy Guthrie. A lot has been made. What happened? Was this really a kidnapping? Was it a, quote, medical event such as her having a stroke or a heart attack? Well, her body wasn't there, so that's pretty good indicator. She didn't fall or have a stroke or a heart attack. Her cane left behind. Much has been made. Is it a real kidnapping? But when the front porch video emerged, thanks to the FBI cast cellular analysis survey team, all those theories were put to rest. I want to give you that FBI website. It is. And we'll put up a full screen for you to look at. FBI.gov wanted kidnap Nancy Guthrie. FBI gov wanted kidnapped Nancy guthrie. There are also tip lines, including anonymous tip lines. Okay, what can we learn from this video? Let's take a look at it in full. I would like to also point out to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, Renowned psychoanalyst out of beverly hills, author of deal breaker. You can see her now on peacock and you can find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com. Dr. Bethany, after these stills and this video came out, the Guthrie family states they do not know who the perp is. Now, if we could, I'd like to see the best photo we have. Still photo of the perp's face. The best still. There you go. There's that. Which to me, the eyes look almost effeminate, but yet this is a man Based on the way he walks, Based on his height, which I'm going to go to fitzgibbons on in just a moment. About his height, his shoe size and his weight. How that can be determined. But, Dr. Bethany, I just don't see an incentive. Everyone is just clamoring to link the family to the kidnap. Before we do that and heap more pain upon the family, they have stated, according to sources, that they do not recognize this guy. Show me every still you've got at every angle. Dr. Bethany, what do you make of the family stating we don't know him?

Dr. Bethany Marshall (27:48)

Well, probably they do not know him. What's interesting is that the guy that they pulled over last night, Carlos, the public did respond in the way that Savannah wanted them to respond. Savannah, in the video you played earlier, pleads for the public's help. This guy is pulled over because the public helped. They tried to link this photograph to a delivery man who was in the neighborhood. So that gives me hope that there are people and homes in this neighborhood who are trying to solve this crime. Now, this particular picture, I think it's interesting because when I look at the guy's eyelids, it looks like a younger person. You know, his eyelids don't fold over like you see with older people. His eyebrows look somewhat like tweezed or thin to me. That's maybe why you think that this picture is effeminate. It could be because the ski mask is sort of over his forehead. But I would also wonder if this is somebody who engages in the type of grooming where they like to have, you know, their, their eye, their eyebrows waxed or thinned, which might give them an effeminate look.

Nancy Grace (29:01)

Let me see, Bethany. Okay, Bethany, thank you. Because you just crystallized for me why I thought at the very beginning when I just saw the face, I stated, could this be a woman? Because the lashes and the brows, it's just exactly what you said. Let's look at it again. It's the thin nature of the eyebrows. If we could zoom. There you go. Thank you, control room. But the reality is that may be because of the ski mask pulling the eyebrows and the eyes upward. But yes, the lashes, the eyebrows do give an effeminate appearance. But now, control room, if you could give me the video of him walking forward. When he walks forward, it's totally a guy. It's totally a guy. Look at the. Yeah, that's not. That's a man. That is a man plus. And Fitzgibbons will explain how they can measure. And they think he is between 5, 11 and 6, 1 or 6ft tall. All right. He also looks bulked up, like he's got on several layers of clothing under there. So I'm looking at this and look at that stuffed backpack. Once you see him, Dr. Bethany. There's nothing effeminate at all about the way he walks.

Dr. Bethany Marshall (30:26)

Yes. But there are a lot of men out there who don't walk in an effeminate manner, but they like to groom themselves in an effeminate manner. So I would just cast a wider net and think about men who might, you know, match that appearance. Now, this backpack is interesting to me, Nancy, because I've been fascinated from the get go by the fact that the blood trail stops on the doorstep, which tells me that whoever took her had some kind of a compression cloth, something that they used to stem the bleeding. Otherwise the blood droplets would continue out to the driveway or maybe there was a car waiting. So that has made me think about you know, who was attending to her medical needs. You know, she couldn't walk more than 50ft. She has medication that she needs, which I have guessed from the beginning is blood pressure medication because she has a pacemaker. So who was attending to her medical needs in that house? And would that particular person know to bring some kind of a compression or a cloth or a bandage or something to stem the bleeding?

Nancy Grace (31:32)

They helped me against my will.

Matthew Lopez (31:33)

They didn't renew my rights until two hours later.

Brian Fitzgibbons (31:36)

Okay.

Nancy Grace (31:37)

You know me, my richest woman from. From the back of. Did you have any idea.

Jessica Finn (31:46)

Do you know who.

Matthew Lopez (31:46)

Nancy Guthrie.

Brian Fitzgibbons (31:47)

No.

Nancy Grace (31:48)

From our friends at cbs, this guy is a driver. He is a delivery person. He was detained last night, Carlos Palazzo. And he was released. They held me. As somebody has been watching Law and Order. They held me against my will. Yes. And they didn't read me my rights. Okay. Until two hours later. So they did read the rights. My wrist is all effing swollen from the handcuffs. Let's see him on video. I want to see that swelling he's talking about. Did you have any idea? No. Okay, hold on. Here comes the hands. I think he's going to hold them up. I think it's going to happen. I think. Oh, well. To you, Matthew Lopez. His hands are working. He doesn't seem to have any permanent injury. He can't show me any bruises, any redness, any swelling, any scratches, any. Anything. But he does know enough to whine, hello, Nancy. Guthrie could be dead, and he's whining he didn't get his rights for two hours. Please.

Matthew Lopez (32:57)

Yeah. A lot of people think when they called my office that failure to read Miranda rights are sort of a get out of jail free card. And they don't understand it's more complex than that. And you're absolutely right. There's got to be two elements. It's called custodial interrogation. So whether or not somebody is under arrest and they're interrogating him about questions relating to this incident. Now, I can understand where he's coming from. If he had no involvement and he's getting pulled over or he was being followed and then he decides to pull over is, you know, they have warrant. They execute the warrant. They search his house, they search his car. So, you know, if I was minding my own business, as it were, and the FBI came and approached me and they were accusing me of possibly being connected or asking me questions about being connected with the murder. And in this case, Carlos said that he's never even heard of Savannah Guthrie. I would be Taken aback. And so, you know, he may be whining, and I'm sure he's not downplaying the severity of a murder. Right. But in his world, he was caught off guard, and he doesn't understand why he was pulled over. And this is also. He's in front of the camera. So this is his opportunity to really, really to project.

Nancy Grace (34:01)

Bring it home. Okay. In other words, they did everything right. They did nothing wrong. Okay, that's correct. He did not need his Miranda rights read to him because he wasn't under arrest. They ultimately did read his Miranda rights to him needlessly. Matthew Lopez. This ain't the Ritz. This is a kidnapping, possibly a homicide investigation. So I'll circle back to the pampered federal visitor who is now whining that his wrists hurt but can't show me any injury. Hold that thought, Lopez, because joining me right now, and he is on his way to a scene, so I want to go to him very quickly. Lee New Becker joining a cybersecurity and digital forensic expert now the CEO of Enigma Forensics. Lee, thank you for being with us. Okay, there's been a lot of speculation, and I was listening to Kash Patel last night, and he was very circumspect, as he must be explaining how those images from Nancy Guthrie's front porch were obtained. I'm going to give you my layperson understanding of what happened. What happened is that Nancy did not have a subscription to Nest. She had a Nest security cam. But the FBI was able to go into Google Nest as a Google product and to their vast, vast network of stored items and mine that. And somehow, amazingly, Cast cellular analysis survey team found her home and her nest and got the images. That's how that happened. Now, I know that you're on your way to a scene, so just tell me, is that correct?

Lee New Becker (36:11)

Basically, Nancy, remember when Director Comey put a block on his camera on his laptop? That's a clear indicator. We should all assume that anytime we're in front of a camera that those feeds are going somewhere. We may not get access to them. But to assume that our government doesn't get those feeds, no, that's questionable. I can't say with authority on that because that's all classified information. But it's something that is out there, right?

Nancy Grace (36:40)

Hey, Lee. Don't move very quickly back to Lopez. And to get the information from Google, the parent company of Nest, and you can see very clearly on the video, it says Nest right at the top. It's not a leap of faith to Figure out where it came from. You can either get a warrant for Google for them to allow the search by the FBI. They can voluntarily allow the search. There can be a court order for the search. So there's many ways for the FBI to have gotten that information from Google. Do you agree or disagree?

Matthew Lopez (37:19)

I agree with that and unclear right now whether or not Google on its own divulges information or they were ordered by the courts and the FBI to divulge information. But my thought would be more answers are coming in the days to come. If it took this amount of time to get the, the camera, the recording from this nest doorbell camera, my thought would be the FBI is going to start getting more and more information the same way from the neighborhood cameras. And once they get that information, then we're starting, the pieces are going to start falling together. We're going to see a car in the front, we're going to see other people around. So I think this is going to be the tip of the iceberg. And within the next week, because of the, the release of this evidence, we're going to see more. We're going to have a better idea as to what happened that night.

Lee New Becker (38:04)

We don't know what's going on behind the scenes because there was a nine second phone call made to a family member of the Guthrie.

Nancy Grace (38:12)

At this point, put yourself into the mind of the kidnapper.

Brian Fitzgibbons (38:17)

I've made a mistake and that I chose a medically fragile person and she died on me when I was getting her out of the house.

Nancy Grace (38:24)

Yes, there was a setback last night, but all is not lost. All is not lost. There is a huge misconception that bitcoin cannot be traced. Nothing could be further from the truth. Lee New Becker is with us. The CEO of Enigma Forensics, cybersecurity, digital forensics expert. Okay. Block chain analysis. There have been many, many cases created by the FBI, by doj, by the irs, where bitcoin has been successfully traced. And billions. That b. That's B as in brother. Billions of dollars and billions of dollars worth of bitcoin have been recovered. And one case I like to talk about is Zhang He Zhang, I believe it's Z H O U N G was defrauding entities on the dark web, specifically Silk Road. And he was transferring bitcoin from one wallet to the next. Think of it like this. I'm just a layperson. I'm just a trial lawyer. You're the expert. But I think of it as someone who creates a shell corporation like a LLC and they funnel money into it. And it's a fake name. Okay, let's just pretend it's Lee Newbecker llc. And then they transfer that into Matt Lopez LLC and none of them mean anything. They're just names that they have filed with the Secretary of State. Then it goes to Bethany Marshall, Psychoanalyst, LLC, and Brian Fitzgibbons LLC and Jessica Fan and Dave Mack and this and that. And finally to the end, you've gone through so many, you've lost the trail or somebody that creates an email and then another fake email based on that fake email and down and down and down and down. That's really how Bitcoin is hidden. You just have to follow the blockchain analysis and it's called block chain because the transactions, when you look at it, it looks like it's entered into a block on a, like a Google Doc, a shared Google Doc is what it looks like. And you, the block is a chain that block to that block, to that block, to that block. So you do a block chain analysis and you basically follow the money. Now I'm sure you have a much better way to explain it. Hit it.

Lee New Becker (41:10)

I think you did a great job. Kind of for those of you that research your ancestry or genealogy, it's very much like that. You know, you're tracing the source parent and you can go back very far. But the way the blockchain works, you have an entity that has a wallet and is authoritative, they do a transaction. Well, that transaction then gets distributed downstream, much like going back to the first couple that was born on earth. And so you have parents and you have to just keep tracing it. Now the government has an advantage because those of you that think Tor is anonymous network, well, sitting on the Tor network are many government servers that intercept and collect information along the way. So by identifying the wallet ID and doing tedious tracing, eventually you can go back to a source and you have an IP address which is like a telephone number for computers. And taking the energy to follow it all the way back to the initial source, they can find things out.

Nancy Grace (42:19)

Now hold on, you mentioned the Tor network. That is basically a free. It's an open source system that allows anonymous communications and it routes Internet traffic through a global volunteer operated network. That's what it is. It's kind of like an open network, like onion routing. It's encrypted three times, sent through three random volunteer operated modes and it goes on and on and on. It's designed for privacy. You mentioned the Tor network, correct?

Lee New Becker (42:55)

Yes. And to think that some of those Computers on that network aren't our own governments is, you know, being kind of foolish. So, you know, anyone that's in that chain can intercept information because the wallet ID is transferred, the origin, the original IP address and so on. So, you know, it makes sense that our government would want to be part of the Tor network and probably very much all over it, so that they can intercept and stop crime, prevent terrorism, and trace, you know, counterfeiting money, clothes and so on.

Nancy Grace (43:32)

You know, just think of the irs. Neubecker, right. When Al Capone couldn't be caught for murder, the IRS got him. Bam. Done. Don't mess with them. You want to tell me if a thief can figure out how to do Bitcoin and use it for criminal purposes that the IRS can't figure out how to thwart that? Oh, yes they can. So when people say, oh, it's lost forever. It's not. The trail is not lost forever. The problem is when it is transferred, if it is transferred to another country that has no or low bitcoin regulation. Because say we go to that country and what are we going to subpoena if they haven't kept the record? See what I mean? But tell me the, the fly in the ointment is when they try to cash out the bitcoin. Explain.

Lee New Becker (44:34)

Well, auction times, people will go to a convenience store, Circle K, 7, 11, whatever, whatever will allow for conversion of the currency. And when that happens, make no mistake, the cameras within there are recording that.

Nancy Grace (44:49)

So put him. Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, Nelly. Wait a minute. You think they're going to go run over to the Kroger's to get $6 million worth of Bitcoin at? No, but you are right. There's actually 80 Bitcoin ATMs out there. They're common in the States, not necessarily elsewhere. Where. What will they do with the money if and when they get it, the bitcoin? What will they transfer it and transfer it and transfer it? That wallet. That wallet. That wallet, that wallet. And then what? To another country and then try to convert it?

Lee New Becker (45:28)

Very possibly. So oftentimes the people cashing out are not the people behind it, but someone connected them. So it's the diligent process of finding. And they'll find it eventually if they don't spend the money. It's going to be difficult. But you know, people. People have needs for money and you know, I think it's just a matter of time.

Nancy Grace (45:51)

That's when they're going to get caught, I think, is if they try to. And I hope it doesn't take that long if they try to get to transfer the bitcoin to money, especially if they do it in the U.S. agree.

Lee New Becker (46:04)

Or disagree, it's much more difficult to trace the activity once it leaves country and goes to a country that doesn't cooperate with SWIFT or our other anti money laundering initiatives that the treasury does.

Matthew Lopez (46:21)

I mean, I hope they get the.

Nancy Grace (46:23)

Suspect because I'm not it.

Matthew Lopez (46:24)

They better do their job and find.

Nancy Grace (46:26)

The suspect that did it so they can clear my name. CBS News catch and release. That's what happened last night. A guy was pulled over thinking he matched the description of a perp on the front porch of Nancy Guthrie's home. It wasn't him. Straight out to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us. He is the director of operations, USPA Nationwide Security. He leads a team of investigators around the world looking for missing people. Let me ask you at this juncture, what do we do now?

Brian Fitzgibbons (47:02)

Yeah, I think what we saw with this catch and release, Nancy, and you know, this relates to what we do now is that they most likely found that vehicle. So I think what you know, you probably had is that they saw his vehicle. He's a delivery driver in and out of that neighborhood, in and out of that area. So I think in the coming hours and days we're going to see more activity from law enforcement because they're narrowing down a list of vehicles that were in and around that area and they're starting to actually find the people associated with those vehicles.

Nancy Grace (47:45)

Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Brian Fitzgibbons. I think a major piece of evidence is the clothing. Now our staff crime stories during the night looked up similar outfits, similar backpacks, similar vests, jackets, specifically the ski mask, all night long. Let's take a look at what they found. I think this may be very helpful. Take a look at the backpack now. Interesting. If you look, this is an Ozark trail and all of these are found at Walmart. So if you look at the reflection, the reflective strips. There you go. The backpack to me is easily identifiable. Okay, let's move to the jacket. The jacket has a unique zip up the front that shines in the dark. I'm not sure if it's a full zip. I think that it is as is pictured to the left. But I guarantee it's got a hood. I guarantee you that the feds are doing exactly what we're doing right now. But most interesting to me is the ski mask, because the ski mask. Let's see a close up. There you go. That's A great shot on the right, the ski mask. See the vertical ridges in it? It's gray in color. It's a balaclava is what it is. And you've got the stitching around the eyes. And remember, you've got to take into account that it's nighttime and you've got a light shining on the perp. So how can that be traced by the way he's got in his mouth what we believe to be a bite light. It's often used by aviators that need their hands in a cockpit. It's very common. There are multiple types of them. That's the bite that you see with the four orange dots on either side. Brivis Gibbons. How can this be done? How can these items be traced?

Brian Fitzgibbons (50:04)

Yeah, and you've seen other web sleuths, Nancy, in the Internet community, have also identified the type of pants he's wearing, the shoes, all of these items. And this is why the FBI has released this video, is there may be a person connected to this individual that recognizes these items that they've seen, an associate or someone they know that's had these items in their possession that wears these clothes. So that's why this is so valuable.

Nancy Grace (50:38)

In generating leads straight back to Jessica Finn. Jessica, what, if anything, is happening at this hour?

Jessica Finn (50:46)

One of the things that I don't think that we really got to touch on is specifically the details of what the FBI was doing on the ground in and around Annie Guthrie's home. From what I'm seeing, there was a lot of door knocking from the fb. And these door knocks included the FBI agents, of course, asking, have you seen anything? Have you heard anything? That kind of general query. But the other interesting thing they're asking for is they're asking for everybody's surveillance cameras in and around Annie Guthrie's home. And now Annie and Nancy are 10 minutes away from each other. So why they're having this team of about 10 FBI agents going door to door in and around Annie Guthrie's home, asking everybody for their surveillance footage is really, really interesting. And it brings up a lot of questions as to what they're trying to navig. And it might go back to what we're talking about with Fitzgibbons saying that maybe they're zeroing in on the actual vehicle that the perpetrator was driving.

Nancy Grace (51:40)

Brian Fitzgibbons. I know you heard what Jessica Finn just said, and she's right. Last night, as the arrest, or, excuse me, the detainment of the delivery driver was occurring, a whole team was Back out at Annie Guthrie's home. And they were very, very meticulously going through desert brush, the edges of people's yards, really looking in sheds, speaking to people, showing them pictures. But also, I want to ask you about that. The family, again, states they do not recognize the person on Nancy Guthrie's porch. But the dichotomy. Fitz Gibbons, I'd like you to address that. This guy bumbling around like, whoa. What? There's a camera. I think I put leaves on it. Okay. There's the seemingly idiocy of what he's doing compared to the almost eloquent wording of the ransom note, clearly written by someone with a great command of the English language and where many people are mocking this guy, but he has managed to elude authorities. Day 11 so the dichotomy is stunning, which leads me to think, Brian, that there are at least two people involved.

Brian Fitzgibbons (53:07)

Absolutely. And, you know, we assume a certain level of sophistication based on the reported eloquence of the ransom demand. And that indicates, you know, we can't translate that in down to the foot soldier who is actually walking up to Mrs. Guthrie's threshold. Right. So that sophistication could be present for the person doing this. And by the way, I'll say again, the ransom note sent to TMZ and this action may be completely separate. Okay. So we have to keep that in mind. But the sophistication is.

Nancy Grace (53:47)

Okay, back it up. Would you repeat that very slowly?

Brian Fitzgibbons (53:51)

So we have to zoom out. And keep in mind that the ransom demand sent to TMZ in the local Tucson news stations may be an opportunist trying to cash in on this terrible event. And it may be disconnected from this individual that actually took Nancy from the home.

Nancy Grace (54:14)

Now, we have to follow that through to where it ends. You can't just throw it out there and accept us to swallow it hook, line, and sinker. So you're saying let's just pretend for the moment that the ransom note is not connected to the porch guy. So then why did the porch guy take Nancy Guthrie? He didn't kill her on the scene like a typical burglar or robber or rapist. They come in, they take what they want, they may rape someone, and then they kill them and leave them and run like hell because they don't want to get caught. So she is kidnapped. She was kidnapped. No question. So you're saying they kidnapped her for nothing.

Brian Fitzgibbons (55:00)

So, what, to keep her in there? Basically not saying that in either event. Right. What I'm saying, the position I'm taking is the porch guy is not the one who's responsible for writing the ransom demand. He's either controlled by somebody and he's a foot soldier executing this operation, or it's disconnected. But in either event, it's very unlikely that this person who's pulling up weeds to throw them over a ring camera is the one who orchestrated ransom demands being sent to TMZ and local news affiliates in Tucson.

Nancy Grace (55:35)

Understood, but you're not having your cake and eating it, too. You can't have it sitting on the plate and in your stomach. No. So you said they're disconnected, and then you said that the porch guy is working at the behest of the author of the ransom note. That means they are connected. If they're working in tandem, then they're connected. I could see that, but I do not see that the porch guy just took her randomly for no reason. It had to be for ransom.

Brian Fitzgibbons (56:12)

Yeah.

Nancy Grace (56:12)

So you're saying the porch guy took her for ransom, but that the note to TMZ could be a fake? Well, then if the porch guy took her for ransom, then where's the ransom demand? See, you know, you got to follow this thing through to its logical conclusion.

Brian Fitzgibbons (56:28)

Yeah. And as I was saying, in either way, it's very unlikely that the porch guy himself had anything to do with orchestrating that ransom demand, that this is just merely a foot soldier executing this operation.

Nancy Grace (56:44)

If you know or think you know anything about Ms. Guthrie's disappearance, please call the FBI toll free, 800-225-5324. Or if you want to remain anonymous, 520-882-7463. We remember American Hero Patrol Officer Jonah Hernandez of Las Cruces Police Department. Killed in the line of duty. Just 35 years old. Leaving behind a wife turned widow and two boys without a father. American Hero Patrol officer Jonah Hernandez, Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.