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Nancy Grace (2:38)

Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother Nancy Guthrie Missing Day 17 how did this guy, seemingly amateurish, yanking up foliage to put over the door. Cam wearing a gun, polyester gun holster hanging down around his crotch. How has this guy managed to elude law enforcement, including the FBI? Is Nancy Guthrie still alive? If so, what is she enduring? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

Narrator/Advertiser (3:24)

It's been two weeks since our mom was taken. We still have hope, we still believe to whoever has her or knows where she is. It's never too late.

Nancy Grace (3:41)

As we go to air tonight, blue fly technology, a very sophisticated technology to detect low frequency Bluetooth waves is being used hopefully to find some evidence of Nancy Guthrie's heart monitor, her pacemaker. This as reports of the match to the single glove found. As we hear, DNA will link to the DNA found in the home. How do they know that? Is that inaccurate? Is that overstating? Again with me, an all star panel to make sense of what we are learning. Now to Dave Mack. Joining us, crime stories, investigative reporter Dave Mac. Tell me about the blue fly technology.

Dave Mack (4:29)

This is amazing technology, Nancy, that focuses in on Bluetooth identity electronics. Okay. It flies on a drone about 600. It can pick up the Bluetooth signal or a wi fi signal from over two football fields away, about 665ft.

Nancy Grace (4:49)

So hold on, hold on. Did you say two football fields away?

Dave Mack (4:56)

Yes.

Nancy Grace (4:57)

I didn't. I didn't understand that that is significant. Hold on, hold on. Dave Mack. Brian Fitzgibbons is joining us. Director operations, USPA Nationwide security, leading a team of investigators around the world to find missing people. Also former marine and Iraqi war vet. Fitz, thank you for being with us tonight. Now, hold on. Two football fields away. That is news to me. Tell me how that works.

Brian Fitzgibbons (5:28)

Yeah, so we've actually learned in recent days and fellow former marine Dave Kennedy and cybersecurity expert has posted and shared this publicly that he's created an integration with an amplifier, a larger antenna, basically that gives the sniffer a bigger nose. So when these Bluetooth low energy signals. Let me see if it's typically only red.

Nancy Grace (5:56)

Okay.

Dave Mack (5:56)

Fit.

Nancy Grace (5:57)

I'm just a trial lawyer. Faddis and I are just trial lawyer. Dr. Jerry Lynn utter is with us. She's a shrink. Joe. Scott Morgan is a blood expert, death investigator and Dave Mac's reporter. You need to slow down so us mere mortals can understand what you just said. Okay. If you don't mind. Start over.

Brian Fitzgibbons (6:21)

Yes. So, in a nutshell, we've learned in the last day or two from Dave Kennedy on X, cybersecurity expert, that he's created the ability to amplify with an antenna that Bluetooth sniffer. So when the range would typically be 25 to 30ft for Nancy's pacemaker, he's gotten that nose to be bigger on the sniffer, where it's sniffing these signals up to 800ft, which obviously makes the ability for this search to happen much greater. In essence, what this technology, the advancements that's happened inside of this case that we've learned about is they're able to amplify that signal.

Joe Scott Morgan (7:10)

Okay?

Brian Fitzgibbons (7:11)

So with an antenna, they're able to look farther away. So, typically, these BLE devices, like Nancy's pacemaker would only be communicating at 25 to 30ft. Now, law enforcement has a range of more like 6 to 800ft. So that's going to make the possibility of locating Nancy much further.

Nancy Grace (7:33)

Hey, Fitz, look at your screen right there. I think the guy. By the way, this is from our friends at Fox News who shared this with us. If I could see that again, please. It looked to me like he was holding it in his lap. I was trying to see where it is attached to the helicopter. It looks to me like he's holding it. Would that make sense, Fitzgibbons?

Brian Fitzgibbons (7:59)

I believe that they had it strapped onto one of the skids on that helicopter. And he may be holding a device that's helping to see the location of these. Of these pings, these signals that they're getting. But I'm pretty certain that they had a fixed.

Nancy Grace (8:17)

Let's see the video again, and let's see if he's right. I bet he is. That it's. It's attached to one of the skids. Guys, our friends from Fox News shared this with us. We're looking for the blue fly technology. And, yeah, I think you're right, Fitz. I think you're absolutely correct. So let's see what it actually looks like, what the device looks like. Now, what you're seeing right now, we believe drone drones were then used. Drones were used. It's my understanding, Dave Mack. Yes. No. Was the blue fly then attached to drones so they could get lower to the ground?

Dave Mack (9:03)

Yeah. At first, they were using helicopters, flying grid patterns. Then they switched to drones after four days.

Nancy Grace (9:09)

Okay, back to Brian Fitzgibbons. So, wow, Dave, they've been doing this now for at least five days. Okay, Brian, if you could very slowly Educate us on the Blue Fly technology. Again, it's been around for a while, but you don't hear it openly discussed. The FBI had to bring this in. I do not think local law enforcement nanos had it. So again, very slowly for us, many people just learning about it. Tell me again.

Brian Fitzgibbons (9:41)

Yeah, so this technology began as a pretty high end defense technology, and then they found with it a search and rescue application quite some time ago. And then they began to use it in search and rescue scenarios. Missing hikers, skiers, things like that that they believe had devices.

Nancy Grace (10:02)

It started how it started how.

Brian Fitzgibbons (10:06)

So this was originally a cybersecurity tech used in the defense industry to find and locate any surreptitious devices that were emitting radio frequencies in or near such as what? This would be, you know, foreign national governments trying to listen in or capture information in or around Department of Defense or intelligence facilities. And this, this tech would sniff that out.

Nancy Grace (10:38)

Put them up. Put him up, put him up, put him up. I need to look at you while you're saying this. Okay. I knew about Blue Fly, but I didn't know that. Okay. It started with cybersecurity tech used in the defense industry to find surreptitious devices such as those used by foreign national governments trying to listen in. Is that what you just said?

Brian Fitzgibbons (11:01)

Yes. So there could be any number of things that these devices that are not allowed to be there could be doing. And that technology, they found a greater application or new application for it in the search and rescue space that they could apply that same methodology in the same use case to go out and find devices associated with missing persons. And that's where you've seen this tech implemented kind of in the mainstream is in search and rescue applications such as you have the missing hiker, missing skier, missing persons that have devices on them. This is not the first time that this has been used. I think what's novel here is what I had spoken about that cybersecurity expert Dave Kennedy has found is the ability to amplify that to increase the range. That's the breakthrough here with Nancy's case.

Nancy Grace (12:10)

What kind of devices would a hiker or a skier have on them that the Blue Fly could pick up?

Brian Fitzgibbons (12:19)

So this could be anything like an Airtag, Bluetooth, headphones, any type of hearing aid, pacemaker, cell phone, certainly, you know, would, if the battery life were still on. It's any type of device on the periphery that's connecting, you know, with a computer, with medical device, anything like that.

Nancy Grace (12:44)

Wow, that was a lot of information.

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Nancy Grace (15:27)

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys Brian Fitzgibbons joining us, Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security. Now, explain to me, if the blue fly can work, as I'm learning now, over two football fields in length, why did they decide to put it on a drone and fly it low to the ground? Just better chances of picking something up.

Brian Fitzgibbons (16:02)

Yeah. And they can amplify the search. Right. There are only so many helicopters available. You know, you obviously have fuel costs and things like that, maintenance that has to happen. So putting it up on drones is going to magnify the number of beacons on that network looking for Nancy's pacemaker. And one thing I will mention is that they're able to zero in on Nancy's pacemaker. So they're able to basically filter that search to only be looking for this device. So it's going to be pretty efficient. The challenge that they're going to face is this pacemaker is likely only communicating out a signal every three to four minutes. So they have to catch it at the right time. This is not going to be as basic as flying over all of Tucson. There's going to be some luck involved here.

Nancy Grace (17:00)

Explain what you're saying about her pacemaker emitting signals every three to four minutes. I thought it was constant.

Brian Fitzgibbons (17:09)

Yeah. So that device is going to be with a pacemaker. It's connected to a phone. Right. And every three or four minutes, it's sending that signal and sharing information packets about, you know, the heart health or whatever's going on with the pacemaker. That's not happening every second all the time. That's happening on a routine. Right. And I believe with this device, it's been reported that this device would hurt. The type that she has would be reporting every three to four minutes. So it's not a. It's not a constant beacon. It's happening on a regimen of three to four minutes.

Nancy Grace (17:47)

Wow. Okay. I'm curious as to what area they're covering with the drones and the blue fly. Is there anything else, Brian, that you can tell us about this device?

Brian Fitzgibbons (18:02)

No, I think. I think we've covered it here that, you know, our hope is that with this amplification possibility to extend the range of the sniffer, that investigators may have some good success in locating Nancy.

Nancy Grace (18:21)

Wow. Okay. And you told me that it goes to. It can now reach two football fields or over two football fields.

Brian Fitzgibbons (18:30)

Yeah. The numbers that I've seen reported by Dave Kennedy, who's been pretty public about this, is that it's up to 800ft. So, you know, that would be over two football fields to Eric Faddis.

Nancy Grace (18:43)

Joining us, a founder of the law offices of Eric Faddis. Eric, this is the type of technology that would be challenged in court, not because it's wrong, not because it doesn't work. Very simply. The same way fingerprints were once challenged in court, the way DNA was challenged in court, the way familial DNA was challenged in court. Explain. There's going to be a big challenge. It's going to they'll lose, of course, but it will be a big hurdle. Explain why.

Dave Mack (19:17)

It will certainly be a challenge. So the courts like science that has been generally accepted, that has widespread acceptance, scientific consensus, and we have new technology. There just hasn't been enough time for the scientific community to reach that position. And so certainly what defense would do in court is say, hey, the principles behind this are not reasonably reliable. They have not been tested enough for this to be admitted into evidence at what could be a very high profile criminal trial.

Nancy Grace (19:47)

Well, of course, Eric, it has been tested in the military sector. I mean, Brian Fitzgibbons, how long has blue fly been used in the military sector anyway?

Brian Fitzgibbons (19:58)

That's not clear. But I would say that this type of signals intelligence has been used for quite some time. You know, the military and intelligence apparatus certainly been concerned for, you know, more than a couple decades on finding devices that shouldn't be in and around their facilities.

Nancy Grace (20:19)

So Fadis, even though this type of technology has been around, as he says, for about two decades that we know of, what you're referring to, I believe, is acceptance in court and acceptance by appellate courts. Like DNA was accepted. Yes, DNA had been used since in war, I guess, going back all the way to at least the Korean War, and you get an immediate field test answer on DNA. That said, it wasn't accepted in criminal trials until many, many more years later. So you've got to have it accepted in court. It may be a landmark case for all we know, if this ever goes to trial, allowing blue fly sign sniffer technology in as it will get in, there's no question about it. You'll bring in a couple of Secret Service guys and they'll explain it to the court and it will come in. It's just an evidentiary hurdle you have to go through. I want to go back to what's happening now in the Nancy Guthrie search. It's amazing to me, absolutely amazing to me. To Joseph Scott Morgan joining us in addition to Dave Mack from Crime Stories and Eric Faddis, trial lawyer Joe Sky Morgan is professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. That has an incredible Criminal evidentiary program. He is a death investigator with over 10,000 death scene investigations under his belt. He's the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. And he's a star of a hit new podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph Scott, look at this guy on the front porch for the five millionth time. I just keep looking at it and looking at it and slowing it and stopping it and looking at it. How in the hay has this guy and his cronies. Let's see the video. Managed to outsmart the feds? Granted, nanos was a speed bump to the feds getting involved, although he denies it. But that said, I don't know how this guy and you know, water seeks its own level. Birds of a feather, all that. You know, his cronies are no different than him. Although somebody, if that ransom note is connected to him, does have a little bit of smarts. How the hey has this guy managed to outsmart a fleet of law enforcement? I don't get it, Joe Scott. Is it just the perfect storm aligning?

Joe Scott Morgan (22:50)

Yeah, I think so. That's my thought at least. But, you know, just looking at these images alone, Nancy, him walking up onto the portico there, up to the patio or the exterior there, there's an entire profile that can be built out of this guy simply based on clothing alone. We do know that he likes to, for instance, shop at Walmart. That Ozark backpack is famously. Ozark products are sold there. It's also been alluded to that this pistol holster that he's carrying. This is not something that those of us that have been in law enforcement or that are, as we say, under arms at any moment in time. This is not something I'm going to go out and pick up in order to carry my own weapon. This is something to be bought off the shelf there. I think there's connectivity in that space. Not to mention the jacket that he's wearing is very specific. These are some of the things that we look for as practitioners can't speak to. The trousers, that mask that he's wearing. Oh, my Lord. You know, it's got. It's got very specific features relative to that as well. I'm reminded of case up in Ohio that I covered a few years ago, the infamous Piketon massacre, where the mother of the family facilitated eight homicides in one night. The mother that helped facilitate this case, she went to Walmart specifically and bought shoes for her family to wear and perpetrate these crimes. So she was specific in her intent relative to acquired garments. I think that they're building that out. The FBI has an incredible database when it comes to clothing alone. I think people would be shocked at what they know about this. I think that there's a lot of stuff going on in the background. If you take a look at kind of the biometric features of this guy, I think one of the interesting things I'm sure that the folks at Langley are looking at here or Quantico is that they're going to be doing a gait analysis on this guy as well. He looks like he lists to one way. His legs appear at least to be slightly bowed, his feet supinate, which means he walks on the edges of his. The outer edges of his feet. His stride is very specific. And, you know, right there he's kind of hunched over looking for things, I think, to cover up because he has an awareness of this nest camera. I don't think he had it previously. I think he's surprised when he sees it. But there's any number of things that can be built out with this alone. And, Nancy, we haven't even touched on DNA at this point.

Nancy Grace (25:26)

Hey, I want to follow up on what you said. You stated that there was a definite profile of the perp based on his clothing alone.

Joe Scott Morgan (25:33)

Yeah.

Nancy Grace (25:33)

Within, oh, gosh, an hour or an hour that this video came out, our staff at Crime Stories, Angelica specifically, and I believe Jessica as well, had gone online and sleuthed and realized that not only did the backpack, the Ozark backpack, come from Walmart, the similar jacket is from Walmart, the ski mask, similar from Walmart. And you know that they also sell gloves of this nature at Walmart. And specifically burner phones are sold at Walmart. Let me see Joe Scott. Joe Scott, the first guy that was caught and released, Palazzo, he was stopped. Now, they're not saying this, but obviously he was stopped because his cell phone had registered in that neighborhood many, many times and maybe right around Nancy Guthrie's home. Then this past weekend, just a few nights ago, more people about the 2 mile range were rousted in the middle of the night, detained home, searched, catch and release. Again, why there had to be their cell phone activity in and around the neighborhood at the time of the break in. So that's what they're doing. They're looking at cell phone data in the neighborhood. And it's a difficult thing to do. It requires a team of people to pull all the data and then probably two people pulling and two people analyzing. A couple in Quantico and a couple on the ground. But that said phones, if It's a burner phone the PURP is using. Not nearly as easy to find. This is my dream, okay? My sweet dream is that all of these items were bought at the same time, so they will be on the same receipt. Now that is not a jackpot. I don't know what is. But if many of these items originated at Walmart, go ahead, jump in please.

Joe Scott Morgan (27:49)

Cctv, Walmart. That's how, that's how like the case I cited out of Ohio that you can see the mother purchasing these items there.

Nancy Grace (27:59)

And so why was she buying footwear to commit murder?

Joe Scott Morgan (28:05)

So that there could not be tiebacks relative to footprints that are left behind in blood. This was a slaughter that I covered. So if you have new shoes, remember we talked about this guy's walk just a second ago, pronate versus supinate and that sort of thing.

Nancy Grace (28:20)

What kind of shoes did she buy for a slaughter?

Joe Scott Morgan (28:23)

Yeah, they were just off the rack, if I remember correctly. Black, low end, lace up athletic shoes. And so what happens is, is that all as if you and I, well, we're not a good comparison. If Dave and I went out and purchased a pair of shoes at Walmart, all right, the same identical pair just in a, in an hour or so, just wearing them if we're walking the same space, you wouldn't pick up on much of a wear pattern. If you wear shoes over a protracted period of time, even though they're the same brand, Dave's are going to look different from mine, say a week out, two weeks out. And because the way, you know, the good Lord made us and the way we take our strides. So in that particular case, those purchase of, the purchases of those shoes, actually they slipped them on before they went into the residence. Okay. So that you couldn't pick up on specific forensic points of identification. Now, you know, I don't know, I don't know anything about this guy's footwear. Don't misconstrue what I'm saying. I have no idea. But I can tell you this. Dollars of donuts are. They're trying to track down the shoes as well to see if there's anything there. I don't know what was in the house. I don't know if he tracked through. I could see them doing what are called Mylar lifts of dust off of the floor. It's a magnetic lift that we do at crime scenes where you can actually get a foot footprint pattern off of this. They would have been searching for that hopefully in the event that they didn't go in and willy nilly screw up anything in there when they're walking through the house. Because, you know, initially when you work, so called kissing, kidnapping, or missing persons case, it's frenetic. You walk in, you're not treating it necessarily like a crime scene, like we would with a homicide scene. You're going closet to closet. You're clearing the house, you're looking through, you're trying to look under beds, all that sort of stuff, and just trying to. To assess the scene to see if you can find her anywhere in there. Then you have to back out at that point in time and lock it down again. I know I'm preaching the choir here. Another problem that I have is the fact that they didn't lock it down. They keep it locked down. You see what I'm saying? And that's problematic for me.

Narrator/Advertiser (30:42)

I wanted to come on and it's been two weeks since our mom was taken, and I just wanted to come.

Nancy Grace (30:55)

On and say that.

Narrator/Advertiser (30:58)

We still have.

Nancy Grace (31:00)

Hope and we still believe Savannah guthrie, beaten down, exhausted, begging them, it's not too late to do the right thing. What more do we know about the search for nancy guthrie? Is she alive? What is she enduring? How is she living? All these thoughts must be colliding in the brains of her three children Every minute of every day. Straight out to an all star panel Making sense of what we know. I want to talk about the other developments. First of all, dave mack, I understand that the FBI is going from gun store to gun store to gun store. They were doing it last night, and they're doing it tonight. And they're showing a list of about 40 people, we've been told, and 40 photos, corresponding photos, and asking questions of the gun shop owners. What do you know?

Dave Mack (32:04)

That's what we're finding out is they've got a list of 40 people with pictures. And they're just canvassing. They're going door to door to every gun store in the area. And they're showing the pictures, they're showing the names. Do you know this person? That's part. And then the second part is, have you guys sold anything like this to this individual? Now, showing up with 40 people, that's a lot. However, you know, gun store owners tend to deal a lot with the same people. Gun people, you know, visit gun stores. So this might actually stick out. Because what we're seeing, especially with the holster not being a high quality holster, the individual might be somebody that stood out to one of these shop owners. So they've got pictures, They've got Names. You know, stores can run names. Gun shops have more control than most on when they sell products, you know, getting information from the buyer. So they've got an opportunity to actually narrow down that list. 40 people, 40 names, that's a lot to start with, but you can narrow it down fairly quickly.

Nancy Grace (33:09)

Joining me, Dr. Jerilyn Utter, clinical psychologist specializing in psychological evaluations of those in the criminal justice system, author of Mainlining Philly and more, producer of Utter A Doc of exploration of addiction. Dr. Geraldine Utter, thank you for being with us. I believe it would stand out even more so in a gun shop owner's mind if the perp came in with another person for some reason that sticks in your mind more than just a single customer. Gun shop owners are very, very wary and the places are okay. Also, don't show her snack scratching her nose. Okay. If you can help it. Dr. Jerilyn Utter, what is a way to jog the memories of the gun store owners?

Dr. Jerilyn Utter (34:08)

I think to your point, Nancy, the fact when folks come in together, that is something that tends to stick in gun owners name in their brains. Because a lot of the times there's something called a straw purchase. So when people are trying to come in and they have somebody with a clean record and they bring the person that's actually going to purchase the gun or that that wants the gun, seeing people together usually raises a red flag because you're like, why are there two people here? You know, you're not somebody that may be, you know, equipped or trained or know what it is that you want or what you're buying. And so sometimes you'll bring along someone else. So I think that that is something that tends to stick in their minds just due to something called a straw purchase and illegal gun purchase. Specifically when you bring someone in that can't purchase the gun because they have a CR record and the person standing before the shop owner is buying it with the intent of giving it to someone else. So a lot of the times when you see partners or when you see two people together, that is something that does generally, you know, raise a red flag because they want to make sure who they're selling equipment or who they're selling a gun to is going to that individual and not perhaps the person that's accompanying that individual to the store. So that's definitely something they are mindful of.

Nancy Grace (35:24)

Dr. Jerilyn, are you saying straw as in hay straw purchase?

Dr. Jerilyn Utter (35:30)

Yeah.

Nancy Grace (35:31)

Explain that.

Dr. Jerilyn Utter (35:33)

So a straw purchase is so let's just say I have a criminal record, Nancy, and I have a Felony record, and I am not allowed to purchase a gun. So what I will do is I will bring someone, a friend or get in touch with someone who has a clean record, and that record's criminal. As well as a psychiatric record. You can't have any, what we call involuntary psychiatric commitments and get. And purchase a gun. So I will bring that person with me. And even though I am the person who wants the gun, I can't purchase it because I'm a felon, I'm a convicted felon, or I have serious psychiatric issues. So I accompany that individual and I go into that store with them. And the person with the clean record or the person that doesn't have a criminal record is the one that is facing the gun store owner, and I'm with them saying, hey, I want that gun, or I want that. But really, I can't be the one to communicate or step up to the gun owner, to the gun shop owner. I have to be the one in the background, even though it's for me. So a straw purchase is essentially an illegal purchase where you bring somebody else into the gun shop that does not have the criminal record. They are the one who has, you know, who purchases the gun. It's in their name. Essentially, when they leave the gun store, they turn around and they give it to their buddy or the person who accompanied them, because that's the person who really, you know, is going to be utilizing the gun.

Nancy Grace (36:54)

Wow. Rhyme, Fitz Gibbons. That would certainly raise the suspicions of the gun store owner. When you're doing a straw purchase, as she described it, what do you make of that? And how can we get the gun owner's memory? The gun store owner's memory jogged?

Brian Fitzgibbons (37:11)

No, Dr. Cherri Lynn's absolutely right. You know, this could very well be a straw purchase. And in this case, the actual perpetrator may have not even gone into the store. We see that quite often. How do we get these gun owners to figure it out? Well, right now, as of yesterday, federal agents were canvassing the greater Tucson area with 40 photos showing these photos and names to gun store owners to do just that, to see if they recognized any of these individuals having entered that business.

Nancy Grace (37:50)

And the fact of the matter, Brian, is that gun stores are like Vegas. They're covered in surveillance video. So that's good.

Brian Fitzgibbons (38:01)

Absolutely.

Joe Scott Morgan (38:02)

Yeah.

Brian Fitzgibbons (38:03)

There's no way that you would not that you could escape having some kind of record of that purchase.

Nancy Grace (38:10)

Dave Mack, do you have to present fingerprint in Arizona to buy a gun at a gun store? And that's assuming he Got a gun at a gun store as opposed to a gun show or you know, bootleg. Go ahead.

Dave Mack (38:25)

No, you don't have to. They do not require a fingerprint. And you don't have to have like a separate photo taken. You have to present a government issued photo id, such as an Arizona driver's license. That would be sufficient in purchasing a gun from a gun store. But no fingerprint is required.

Nancy Grace (38:46)

One thing I do know back to what you were saying, Joe Scott, is you can't get everything at Walmart. They don't sell handguns. So he would have had to go somewhere else but to go to a regular gun store, I'm not seeing it. Maybe a gun show where the requirements were more, let's just say relaxed. Or a bootleg stolen. You know, it could be from anywhere.

Joe Scott Morgan (39:12)

Yeah, yeah, I suppose that it could be. Or, you know, there are cases out there where you have people that are highly organized as criminals. They share. I don't know. Have you heard of people sharing weapons? Because this does happen. I've worked cases involving this where you have individuals that will come to a concentric area and weapons will be shared or literally rented. We actually had cases in Atlanta involving, involving this where you had one weapon that was connected to multiple crimes that were committed by. In. In completely individual, completely different individuals. So that can happen. There's. It's a word. The world, the underworld particularly, is very dynamic in how you can get your hands onto a weapon. And listen, going back, I got to tell you, Nancy, looking at presentation with this weapon, there's been a lot of haymade over the idea that this guy is so very amateurish. One of the things that really strikes me about this and that I'm glad they're showing that image. No one in their right mind would walk around displaying a weapon like that that has a background and carrying concealed. All right, I think, and I don't want to get into the docs area here, but I think that that is an intimidation factor. You show up, you have that weapon. That's where it can actually be seen and you can present with it. And Lord knows this is really dark. But you know, she comes to that door and he presents with that weapon. Even if he doesn't draw it out of the holster, she can visualize it, particularly if that light goes on on the porch. So I think it's positioned that way so that he can actually intimidate somebody with it as opposed to concealing it, having it under that rather robust clothing he's got there.

Nancy Grace (41:00)

Nancy Guthrie Missing Day 17. How in the hay has this guy and his cohorts managed to outsmart the feds? Are they getting close? Word is yes, but is that real? Straight back out to Dave Mack joining us. Dave Mack, we keep hearing in the headlines that will there be a DNA match? To what? From what to what? I assume they're talking about the one glove. Although now there are reports that a second matching glove has been found under a bridge. I got to confirm that. I don't know that yet. But let's assume they're talking about the one glove that seemingly of the 16. What a messed up crime scene. That said, the one glove that seemingly matches the gloves the perp is wearing on the front porch. Match it to what? DNA found in the home. I pray to codis. To what?

Dave Mack (41:59)

Yeah, to the DNA found in the home. Granted, you know, a CODIS match only works if the perp is in the system. So what they really want to do, Nancy, is they want to match up the DNA on the glove found about a mile and a half from Nancy Guthrie's home to whatever DNA they have found inside the home. We know it's unrelated to anyone in the family, that they that law enforcement found DNA in the home. So matching up that DNA inside the Guthrie home to the glove found a mile and a half from the Guthrie home, that's your match. That's what they're looking for.

Nancy Grace (42:35)

Guys, here is a video released by Savannah that Savannah and her sister and with their mom many, many years ago. And that is underscoring, emphasizing that Nancy Guthrie is loved and beloved and has a family grandchildren. And I can only pray that the perps are watching this. And I say perp because I find it really hard to believe that the ding dong on the front porch is the same one that wrote the ransom notes. If they are connected. Even if they're not connected, I find it hard to believe that the ding dong on the front porch has managed to elude law enforcement for this long. Okay, let's talk about DNA. Deoxyribonucleic acid, as Dr. Geralyn Utter just reminded us in the break. Jo Scott Morgan, CODIS is not the only way to go. The combined DNA, like really warehouse is the DNA data bank. And if you've got a record as a felon and in some of the states misdemeanors, you've given your DNA. There's DNA there from crime scenes, from unsolved crime scenes and more. But what about if you have a relative in codis? That would work, too.

Joe Scott Morgan (44:00)

Yeah, yeah, it certainly would. And sometimes, you know, these familial circles, you know, will have deposition at scene. But here's, here's some interesting statistics with, with CODIS itself, and I'm talking very broadly Here across the US there's roughly 19 million offender profiles in there. But Nancy, let's narrow this down a little bit. You think about Arizona itself. Right now, In Arizona, per CODIS, and this is coming from the feds, there are 434,000, roughly, offenders that are registered in Arizona that have the source out of Arizona ties back. You've got seven labs that are participating in Arizona that send this information off and it's deposited with the FBI, the people that manage CODIS within that. Also. There's 37,000 just in Arizona alone of forensic profiles, which means you don't have a name associated with it. That's been DNA that has been collected. It seems it's never been positively identified. So that's a very broad, broad spectrum that you're working on. My contention has been. My contention has been is that if you go to a private lab, if you're going to go with a private lab, there's one in particular I have in mind with that has an agreement with the FBI. And again, this was fouled up from the beginning in my humble opinion. You can actually do investigative genetic genealogy now. There are open source databases and you can connect people through their cousins way down the line. That's how they caught Coburger. You think about that. Connected through the father, going back through his line. So anybody that's made that has made a contribution into any of these databases that say, for instance, Othram Lab has access to which are open. There's your bingo.

Nancy Grace (45:58)

Okay, you said Othram Lab has access to certain databases. You're not talking about private genetic genealogy like 23andMe or Ancestry.com. what specifically are the databases to which you are referring?

Joe Scott Morgan (46:16)

I can't name them off the top of my head, but there are three that they go to that are open.

Nancy Grace (46:20)

Accessible, I'm sure1 is GEDmatch. That's public.

Joe Scott Morgan (46:24)

It is, it is. Thanks for reminding me of that. But yeah, you're absolutely right. And they're having grand success with getting bodies identified that have been unidentified for years and years and that's through familial DNA that they can connect back. So, yeah, I mean, listen, I hope it works out with codis. I really do. Godspeed. I hope it works out. But there's a high probability that you have to factor this in. That it might come back negative. I hope it doesn't. I truly do. But if it does, I think that going down the IGG path relative to investig investigative genetic genealogy is going to be the way to go here because you're going to come back with something and I don't know, it just feels like the thing is so disorganized at this point.

Nancy Grace (47:10)

If in fact that glove is the one or one of the ones worn.

Joe Scott Morgan (47:15)

How many other gloves have they found out?

Nancy Grace (47:17)

Gibbons? Yeah, 16. But many of them were the wrong color, the wrong texture. One even looked like a woolen mitten, for Pete's sake. And we saw the defense had a heyday with a single glove found in the parking lot at the Bryan Kohberger scene. So there's no telling what a defense could do with 16 gloves that had been disposed of by surgeon, by yard workers, by road crews, you name it.

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Joe Scott Morgan (48:54)

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Nancy Grace (49:53)

Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Brian Fitzgibbons. At this juncture, what should be happening?

Brian Fitzgibbons (50:04)

Well, I think what we're seeing and what we hope happens is once these CODIS results come back, that if there is anybody connected even on the periphery, you know, cousin of a lawn care provider to Nancy Guthrie, that law enforcement is able to quickly jump on those leads. But what's happening now is they're running down every single high priority lead that they're getting.

Nancy Grace (50:30)

As we go to air tonight, another $100,000 reward has been announced by a personal injury lawyer, Michael Huppy. To you, Dave Mack, crime Stories investigative reporter. What do you know?

Dave Mack (50:44)

Well, hubby actually is in. He works with Crime Stoppers in Wisconsin. He's head of all of that. And this reward of $100,000 is being added on top of other rewards being offered. And Michael Huppy is the attorney offering that via Crime Stoppers and their anonymous way of reporting these things. Huffy said he believes that it is the anonymous aspect of Crime Stoppers that will allow the perpetrators to actually somebody close to them to come forward.

Nancy Grace (51:14)

So that's $200,000 now on the table for information leading to finding Nancy Guthrie. Wow. To you, Eric Faddis joining us, a founder, founder of the law offices of Eric Faddis, why do you believe the sheriff Nanos made the move to publicly clear the entire family and their spouses, the children, the three siblings and their spouses?

Dave Mack (51:44)

You know, I think there is a ton of public pressure on this sheriff, not only in that community, but nationally, perhaps internationally. You know, they're looking for developments. What are y' all doing? What progress have you made? And so I think that that is probably the motivation behind this announcement. And it also perhaps shows that the investigation has enough information to rule out these folks, whether that's on a timeline basis, on a forensic basis or some other basis. And so it sort of telegraphs to the world, hey, we're trying to make progress. And we believe we are and we believe we can exclude the family as potential perpetrators.

Nancy Grace (52:18)

And to you, Brian Fitz Gibbons, why do you believe Nanos took the unusual route of publicly stating the family, the children, Cameron, Annie and Savannah and their spouses are not suspects, that they have been cleared?

Brian Fitzgibbons (52:38)

Yeah, he's under an incredible amount of media and political pressure here. And I have to say that that's the reason why. That's a completely unorthodox thing to hear in any investigation.

Nancy Grace (52:52)

Why?

Brian Fitzgibbons (52:53)

Because, you know, until the investigation is complete, nobody should be ruled out. Right. We've seen it too many times where Investigations change courses. 1, 1 New bit of information comes in and everything can change. So this is something that you very, very rarely see law enforcement do. So I have to ascribe it to political and media pressure.

Nancy Grace (53:19)

Mm. Apparently, the missive to tmz, the last one there have now been four, suggests that Nancy Guthrie has been taken across the Mexican border. Tell me about the last letter. Well, not really a letter missive to tmz. Dave Mack.

Dave Mack (53:41)

Well, again, it's from the same person who claims that they weren't going to send any more because their feelings got hurt. This person is demanding the $50,000 bitcoin before they'll give up any information and suggesting that it had that the crime has now moved across the border, saying international. In the previous missive to tmz, Harvey Levin and the staff at tmz, working with law enforcement, issued a challenge to this individual, saying, look, you give us the info. It's all in public. We're doing this on the air. So you have a public record of you offering up this information. If it turns out that you're correct, you'll get your money. So that's where it was left. And again, this is the same individual, Nancy, who has claimed to know who took Nancy Guthrie and where they are keeping her right now and got his feelings hurt and said he wasn't going to send any more emails, but of course he did.

Nancy Grace (54:45)

If you know or believe you know anything regarding the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, dial 1-800-225-5324. Repeat, 800-225-5324. Or if you wish to remain anonymous, 520-882-7463 520-8827463. We remember American hero officer Michael Moore, Garland PD, Texas. Just 32, shot in the line of duty, serving 10 years on law enforcement, leaving behind his wife turned widow and three children without a father. American hero officer Michael Moore, Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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