C (3:55)

Oh, yeah, I remember.

A (3:57)

Yeah. Good times. But, Dave, I don't know how I would have done it if right after my fiance was murdered, I was told, okay, now you help us solve it. Okay, now get busy. It's insane. But Savannah, our friend Savannah Guthrie feels they have to reach out to groups in Mexico to try and find her mother. I mean, insanity. But let's start with the latest. Nano's blurting out he believes that Nancy Guthrie is being held close to home. Why is he saying that? And about an accomplice. What about those polygraphs? We've heard nothing about them. Okay, Dave, bring me up to date.

C (4:43)

You know, Nancy, the accomplice. Let's start with the accomplice. Because this goes to the nitty gritty of, you know, you talked about how Nanos just is blurting stuff. The other day, that's what he was doing. He blurted out that he believes there's an accomplice. And the suggestion is that we have the video of the bungling burglar at the front door or the bungling kidnapper, not burglar. And we don't see a second person, but we know we've got an 84 year old woman who lacks mobility and is going to need help to leave. A lot of. A lot of what Nanos is saying. I really think he's just kind of theorizing in his head and just blurting out ideas because he doesn't know what to say. But Nancy's suggesting.

A (5:31)

Do you recall what I told you? My elected district attorney, he was like a grandfather to me. Louis Slayton, at the time, he was the longest serving elected DA in the country. I believe it was 37 years. And he had a rule. Do not speak to the press. And whenever I would be cornered, coming in or out of the courthouse, I would always say the same thing. They seemingly never caught on. I would always say, I believe the jury will Return a true verdict. That's it. That would be it. So all the spinning out, let's say I'm just talking out loud. It's insane. That's a huge, huge no. No. To Franz Burkhardt. Jo, joining us, criminal defense attorney, founder of Borkhardt's law firm, former prosecutor professor, Louisiana State University. Franz, that's just what the defense team would love and what the kidnapper loves. He is. And it's a he. He is getting all of his information, anything he needs to know from Nanos.

D (6:39)

I can't believe they are still talking to the press. And you're absolutely right, Nancy. If as a defense attorney, I'm just taking notes, I'm sitting back and I'm going to do a search for any and everything that was said before the arrest because eventually they're going to make an arrest on this one. But, yeah, he needs to shut his hole and just. And stop. Because he's not helping the investigation.

A (7:02)

No, he's not. And you know another thing, Franz, my elected district attorney, who for me is the gold standard, he never. Well, he did do some pressers, but it would always be the same. There would be a group of people. Nanos is cherry picking the teacher's pets that throw him softball questions and interviewing with them, but they don't really have to ask him much because he'll just keep on thinking out loud. Okay, I could talk about Nanos all day. That's not advancing the investigation. And early this morning, Dave Mack texted me, Savannah Guthrie may not go back to the Today show. Dave, I understand your interest in our friend Savannah and what's going to happen with the Today show. But really, to everyone on the panel, Savannah's future intentions about her career have nothing to do with advancing the search for Nancy Guthrie. So let's leave her and her efforts regarding the Today show are not out of this equation. It has nothing to do with this. That's just office politics going on in New York City. She's in the fight of her life trying to find her mother. Okay, let's get down to it. These are some ideas I came up with. Okay, Jo Scott Morgan joining me. Professor Frankson, everybody, on the panel. Look around. We're not in 8th grade science class. I'm not your teacher calling on you. So if you have anything to add, you're awesome experts. You're experts in your field. Jump in with me. First, Jo Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University with an incredible criminal program there, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of hit new podcast Body bags with Joe Scott Morgan. That aside, he's a death investigator. Over 10,000 death scenes of all sorts. Not just murder, but accidental, natural suicide, unexplained, the works. 10,000 and counting. Joe Scott. Listen to this. Jump in. First of all, behavioral clues. Control room. Can I please see the video from the get go? And especially the part where the front porch guy is rooting around trying to get that foliage to cover up the door cam. And hey, Joe Scott, as an aside, good thing that he disabled the door cam because now we know it would have recorded over this video if he had not dismantled it. So he kind of did me a favor in that small way. I know. Really? Idiot. Okay, so behavioral clues. Joe Scott. Watch him when he goes. When he's down there trying to get the foliage. It, many people believe. And I'm still looking for it. But many people believe the suspect makes a gesture to someone off camera. Right after he removes the foliage, he seems to be looking off. Also, many people believe that he gestures or nods or something. Off. Kim. Okay. Also maneuvering, Mrs. Guthrie, you know Jo Scott, you know my mom, she lives with me. She's 94 and she's a tiny little bitty thing. But even me trying to get her up, I'll have to call somebody to help me because it's hard. You lose control of them, they could fall. It's really a two person job maneuvering Ms. Guthrie around. Also, there's multiple stranger DNA in the home, we have been told. Multiple stranger DNA. Not someone close to Ms. Guthrie, not anybody in the family. The complex logistics, Very complex logistics. For instance, if the ransom note is connected, if it's connected, that is a very sophisticated bitcoin demand. And not only that, the most recent note asks for a bitcoin alternative, something like Monero, which, as you know, it masks the sender and the receiver. And this. It's invisible on the blockchain. The way that most bitcoin is tracked and traced. That's how the FBI, the doj, the irs, busts bitcoin fraud through the blockchain analysis. It. It's really simple. It sounds difficult, but the way that transactions are entered, it's like a big Google search. Shared doc. It looks like it's posted in blocks. That's just. It looks like blocks. So they call it a block chain analysis. You follow the transaction until you get to the sender. Great potential for a lookout who was driving, moving her to the first location and possibly a secondary or tertiary location. Just got. Could take two people so there's a lot suggesting an accomplice and also control room. If you could show me the backpack photo and the no backpack photo juxtaposed against each other. So who gave him the backpack? How did that happen? See, at one juncture, he has the backpack, one he doesn't. And do not go down the rabbit hole with Dave Mack, who said it's really two people that look identical, same stature, wearing the exact same clothes. Don't do that, Jo Scott. Do not. Okay, hit me. Accomplice.

E (12:24)

Well, the biggest tell, and I got to tell you, it's breaking news here. I had not seen this before. And that is where he looks off camera to his left after he's retrieved these bits of grass and the weeds, it looks like to me. And he actually takes it and slaps the top of his hand as he's looking away from the camera. At that point in time, it's very noticeable. I don't know if our folks in production can freeze that, but it's a huge tell to me when he grabs it, you know, and it looks like he's communicating with somebody right there. So to me, that's, that's the gesture.

A (13:06)

That must be the gesture. Joe Scott, good eye.

E (13:09)

Yeah. So he's, he's acknowledging the person to his left, and he's doing this tapping. And here's something else, Nancy. I wonder if, if they're doing this, if that is a. An actual nonverbal sign where they're trying to remain quiet at this point in time. And how can the other person see him? Well, remember, one of the things that they prattled on about in this case is that the neighbors had complained at some point in time that lights all up and down the street were to right. And at some point in time they dimmed this area. I don't know when that was, but that person must be in pretty close proximity to him for him just that little simple hand motion for him to pick up on it. What's he trying to do? Is he trying to explain, you know, what he's doing? I've got this now I'm going to cover. Cover the cam. Don't want to go too far field. But again, this goes to kind of a. Either an incredible lack, a presence of boldness, or lack of preparedness. It would seem to me, if you have an awareness of a nest cam before arriving, why wouldn't you have a piece of duct tape that you're just going to take and quickly slap it up there and then be done with that piece? But, yeah, what, what a hell of a mistake to make to rip this thing off. And then it's on the cloud and it's still. It's still recording at this point in time. I don't know it. To me, it just seems like a lack of forethought. They've got a lot of the pieces in place here. And, you know, as far as the ransom note and that sort of thing, I don't know about the connectivity of all of that, but so much of it seems like you've got opportunity that investigators would have had and maybe had missed at critical moments. And then you've got the apple dumpling gang, if that's what this is, that are just kind of bumbling their way through this thing.

B (15:17)

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A (15:48)

Aldous Hodge returns as Alex Cross, your favorite detective on television for season two of the hit show Cross, now streaming exclusively on Prime Video. Critics call season one one of the year's best shows with over 40 million viewers worldwide. Now the story continues with a new season from creator Ben Watkins, and based on characters created by James Patterson, cross is Washington, D.C. 's most brilliant homicide detective and forensic psychologist. Fresh off his capture of the infamous serial killer, the fanboy, Cross teams up with the FBI to hunt down a vigilante serial killer targeting corrupt billionaires. As the case unfolds, Cross navigates a moral crossroads where the lines between justice and vengeance are blurred. Cross is back and better than ever this season. Get ready for a new case. Higher stakes, but the same. Cross Watch season two of Cross, now streaming only on Prime Video Crime Stories, with Nancy Grace, Brian Fitzgibbons joining us. And Brian, I'm going to circle back to you on the possibility that this is a cartel operation, which is far fetched, extremely far fetched. But I'll get you to explain why so we can put that away and get it off our table of analysis. Brian Fitzgibbons is joining us. He's the Director of Operations at USPA Nationwide Security. What is that? He leads a team of investigators around the world finding missing people. He is a marine Vet. He is a former marine and an Iraqi war vet. Let me talk to you about the possibility of an accomplice, because it's been out there circulating and then Nana's blurted it out that he thinks there may be an accomplice. Why he said that? I mean, really, it's just like waving the red flag in front of a bull. It's like putting on the overhead speaker in high school. We now know there's an accomplice and we're coming after you. Which in my mind would only make the accomplice panic. But that said, what leads you to agree or disagree regarding an accomplice?

F (18:11)

I certainly agree with that, Nancy. I've been saying this since we started covering this case. First of all, just like we call him, you know, the bungling kidnapper on the porch, this is indigo indicative to me that he's being controlled and supervised by somebody, that he did not do this alone. This was just a foot soldier that was sent forward, you know, to disable that camera and gain entry to the house. So I think his, his lack of sophistication on that porch itself shows that there's, there's someone else involved. Who's his superior.

A (18:50)

Nobody is biting about the backpack. I keep saying it and nobody's touching it with 10 foot pole. Fitz Gibbons, he comes up to the scene. Let's see him. When he first approaches, who gave him the backpack? Because there is absolutely a moment. He doesn't have the backpack. Where did it go? Who gave it to him? Was it in the car? Did he have to go retrieve it? Did he put it back in the car? So if there is a car, trust me, he didn't leave it laying out on the front lawn. So if there's a car, is somebody in the car? Do you really think. Just think about it forensically, clinically, would he do this alone? Because the reason I care, Fitzgibbons, is the more people involved, the more likely somebody's going to talk. You've got an extra girlfriend, you've got an extra grandma or mom or an extra neighbor or little sister. Somebody knows something's up and that reward is climbing. That's why I care if there's an accomplice. They can both go straight to hell and burn for all I care. But I want to catch them. So what do you think about the backpack aspect?

F (20:10)

Yeah, and there's, there's one. I agree with you there that that backpack wouldn't have just been placed on the ground randomly. In that first video, when you see him approaching the Porch, there's a shadow being cast from the left to the right. All right. Indicative of that motion light that was destroyed. When you later see him without the backpack on, there is no similar shadow. So you can extrapolate from that that, you know, he may have had tools either to gain access or to destroy that light, which we know was indeed destroyed on that side of the house.

A (20:49)

So what, how does that fit into the accomplice theory?

F (20:52)

Yeah. That he's. He's passing off that equipment after he's done with it, either storing it in a car because, you know, now it's pitch black out in front of the house. You're not just going to leave the backpack in the pitch black on the

A (21:06)

ground, you know, Brian Fitzgibbons, that's really astute. Let me keep looking at this while Brian talks, because I want to, I want everyone to see what he's talking about. You're right. When he walks up, there is the shadow. You can see that that bright night light is on. And it's not just his bite light, it's lit up behind him, behind the bite light as well. Okay, then as you look later, without the backpack, everything's dark. I don't believe he climbed up and dismantled that night light on his own. That's a really good, good point. Joining me, Dr. Michelle Joy, forensic, clinical, academic, psychiatrist, author of the Schmuck in my office. You can find her at West Philly Morbidart. Dr. Michelle, thank you for being with us. What do you make of the psychological evaluation of whether he had an accomplice? Did he do this all on his own?

G (22:12)

I think there's a lot to be garnered from the video, as the other people interviewed so far, far have said. But I think that what makes the most sense to me is his lack of facileness with everything. Right, I know that. Exactly. That gun there. Some other former FBI agents had spoken about just his lack of expertise with carrying a firearm. It's kind of holstered in front of him and waving around and things like this. So I think that his lack of sophistication makes me agree with the previous person that was interviewed. Was that there's someone else directing most likely this. Because if being this bumbling, as we've used the word so far just at the intro to this scene, you wouldn't think that he would have coordinated anything successful enough to not only have this person and when I say successfully, obviously tragically successfully, to be able to extract her and to have her disappear for this long, it just seems like something would have gone wrong from his perspective, being a lone actor.

B (23:33)

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A (24:04)

Aldous Hodge returns as Alex Cross, your favorite detective on television for season two of the hit show Cross, now streaming exclusively on Prime Video. Critics call season one one of the year's best shows. With over 40 million viewers worldwide. The story continues with a new season from creator Ben Watkins and based on characters created by James Patterson, cross is Washington, D.C. 's most brilliant homicide detective and forensic psychologist. Fresh off his capture of the infamous serial killer, the fanboy, Cross teams up with the FBI to hunt down a vigilante serial killer targeting corrupt billionaires. As the case unfolds, Cross navigates a moral crossroads where the lines between justice and vengeance are blurred. Cross is back and better than ever this season. Get ready for a new case. Higher stakes, but the same. Cross Watch Season two of Cross, now streaming only on Prime Video. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Now there is the specter of Mexican cartel involvement, but after speaking to border patrol officers and experts in the area, I don't buy it. Cartels usually target people within Mexico. Can anybody on this panel name a single US Citizen taken from the US by the cartels? Obviously, no. So I've noticed in cartel schemes, they typically correspond to local events, local extortion plots, business dealings, drug issues. To Brian Fitzgibbon, do you agree or disagree? You have rescued people out of Mexico. Does this have any resemblance to a cartel job?

F (26:04)

Not at all, Nancy. The primary reason is just like you said, this is a US citizen, high profile in nature. This is going to draw an incredible amount of it has drawn an incredible amount of media attention and an incredible amount of unwanted attention to the cartel from the US Federal government. The second point that I'm going to make is all the hallmarks of a typical cartel ransom and kidnapping, kidnapping ransom operation are not being met here. There would be a clear and sophisticated way to pay. They would want to be able to cash out easily and make that process very seamless. This doesn't meet any of those criteria,

A (26:52)

you know, when it comes to Mexico, Brian Fitzgibbons let's just pretend for one moment that she has been moved to Mexico. That's not playing into all the crazy zany cartel theories. But if she has been moved to Mexico, what do you do to extract someone out of Mexico? We know that the feds are accessing Ay Familia, which is the Mexican equivalent of our DNA data bank, codis, although it's used mostly for identifying bodies in murder cases. Also, of course, they're looking internationally at Interpol databases. I think good news is that they are looking at the Arizona database, which is a lot less stringent. You get more information. For instance, suspects are in there. Not pristine DNA. DNA mixtures are in there. The CODIS data bank would not allow everything that is allowed in the Arizona DNA data bank. And that's good for this case, that's good for the Arizona search because you've got a wider pool. There's over half a million profiles in the Arizona data bank. But back to Mexico, how would you extract someone from Mexico?

F (28:11)

Yeah, you know, you first need to understand that Mexico is a very non permissible environment, especially to search for a missing foreign national. This is for a few reasons. One, the levels of local government corruption in Mexico are almost unfathomable to a typical American. Second, wide swaths of territory are primarily controlled by cartels. That's both from a physical security perspective and from a political perspective. And that all leads me to say that the public, especially with such a high profile case, will lack an urgency or willingness to be involved in this search for fear of reprisals. Whether or not the cartel is or is not involved, they do control these areas. So the public will be very apprehensive to participate in this. And that all leads me to say that any search in Mexico that's going to have a positive result is going to come through US Federal government diplomatic channels. That is the number one main effort in any search taking place in Mexico.

A (29:30)

To Franz Borkhardt's joining us, veteran trial lawyer, former prosecutor. The relations between US and Mexico, up and down, up and down. But crossing the border, when you're trying to go into Mexico, it's a lot easier to go into Mexico from the US Than to go from Mexico back into the States. So I'm not sure I believe Dave Mack told me that only 1 out of 25 cars get searched going across the border into Mexico. That does make it easier if they want to hide her there. But then again, Franz, you've got Nano blurting out that he believes she's actually close to home.

D (30:10)

Well, Nanos is an idiot, you know, and again, there's lots of different ways of crossing the border that doesn't involve going through a gate with fence and all that. I don't think we can rely on anything Nanos is suggesting. Now, look, the big thing for me is I do not believe that the cartel kidnapped this woman. I mean, the cartel does not need Bitcoin from the Guthrie family. Do I believe that there could be a individual who has her in Mexico? Absolutely possible. And we have had joint law enforcement efforts with Mexico before to get people out of Mexico that have been trafficked or kidnapped. We also. The only saving grace, Nancy, is if it is cartel, then our dea, our federal DEA agents who are coordinating with Mexican and law enforcement can help out. That's the only advantage of that being true, which it's probably not.

A (31:08)

Okay, I want to talk about a different issue to you. Just. Scott Morgan. We've been told again, by Nanos, that biological matter, he seemed to imply, not DNA, biological matter was found. What is he talking about? Is it the plant? What is it?

E (31:30)

Wow, that's. That's a very broad swath, Nancy. Yeah. So are we talking about flora or fauna here? You know, animal, animal or vegetable at this point in time, what would be implied to me at least, is that there is some kind of deposition that. And could he be talking about some other type of body fluid? I have no idea. You know, why he would go down this road unless. Because, you know, there is a field within our practice of forensics that deals with foliage. Unless they're finding something that might be connected with grasses, pollens, seeds, those sorts of things, I cannot imagine. Here's an interesting thing. If they found something within the house, though, Nancy, that may have been deposited there, and it is not, say, for instance. Let me give you an example. Let's just say that these individuals traveled in from another location, okay? That is not. Not the same environmentally as what you see around her house. And they deposited something within that house, for instance, that is foreign, and they collected it, then maybe that could potentially be a clue. I think a lot of us have been thinking that these individuals that are here may very well be locals in some way. But that's really the only route that I could go down thinking about this very, very broad statement he's making.

A (33:12)

Okay? Right now, DNA is being analyzed. We've heard it's being sent to Othram Laboratories, the Millmans, who are both brilliant. What do you make of that, Joe? Scott?

E (33:23)

Oh, I'm. I'm elated. Absolutely. Elated. I wish that they had done this earlier. I've been one of the biggest voices banging on about this load these many weeks because I know personally what David and Kristin can do in the Woodlands in Texas. My, you know, my biggest fear, Nancy, through all of this is we've heard a lot about DNA early on. And you know, DNA, we all know that it's very fragile now that they've taken whatever these samples are and they shipped them off to Florida. Now they're going to go, go to Quantico, which was probably a profile that they're comparing. I don't know that the. The feds would have gone back and redone the work down in Florida. But then you've got it coming down to Houston. One of the things you run into with DNA is that you burn through your sample and you know, people can say, well you can always go back and get more sample. No, the hell you can't. Because if they've isolated this and they found that that makes this more valuable than gold. So I hope that they've taken due care. Now, with all of that said, if anyone, and I mean anyone on the face of the planet, I can't bang on enough about, about David Middleman. I think he is the Elon Musk of DNA.

A (34:49)

Guys, I agree with you. Joe Scott, regarding Offram. I only hope that it's true. They specialize in degraded, minuscule mixed DNA. And they cracked the Joseph d' Angelo Golden State killer case. They cracked the Rachel Morin case where the El Salvadorian immigrant had come into the US Fleeing a murder charge. Sex assaulted a little girl in LA in her own home. And then sex assaulted and murdered Rachel Moran on the Ma and PA trail. Remember that? And they were on the Bryan Kohberger case. And you know, that goes without describing because that is what broke the case wide open. A lot happening in the case. The fact that Sheriff Nano stated that Guthrie, he believes, is being held close to home. Maybe so at the beginning. Brian Fitzgibbons. Maybe at the beginning, but I don't think they would have kept her there at this juncture. I think they would have moved her. But so many crimes are committed by those in your close circle or that know you family. They've been ruled out according to Nanos, extended beyond that. Nanny, granny, nannies, pool cleaners, yard workers, people at the church, people that know her, delivery guys, them. And then you go beyond like neighbors. We see that a lot. Fitz Gibbons. But I don't think they would keep her there for this long.

F (36:22)

Yeah, no you're absolutely right. I mean, we have to assume that that one layer out of that peripheral, with peripheral knowledge of Mrs. Guthrie, you know, the. The cousin of the pool cleaner, the boy, ex boyfriend of the home health care aide, that these are very likely people in this investigation that they're being looked at. And to your point of where, where would they keep her? You know, I agree that, you know, she would likely have to have been moved. There's a ton of heat in Tucson, and everything you're saying is making a lot of sense.

A (37:05)

If you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, whether you think it's inconsequential or not, Please dial toll free 800225 5324. If you wish to remain anonymous, 520-882-7463. There is over $200,000 in reward. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for keeping the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.

B (37:46)

Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Underage cell. Prohibited golf courses are like Zone nicotine pouches. We all have our favorites, whether you're a fan of mint, citrus, dragon fruit or something more subtle. Zone offers a variety of flavors available in 6 and 9 milligrams. Get intensity and flavor that lasts with Zone. Get cans mailed right to your door@nikokick.com zone and use promo code RADIO20 for 20% off your zone purchase. This February, Aldous Hodge returns as Alex Cross, your favorite detective on television for season two of the hit show Kross, now streaming exclusively on Prime Video. Fresh off his capture of the infamous serial killer, the fanboy, Kross teams up with the FBI to hunt down a vigilante serial killer targeting corrupt billionaires. As the case unfolds, Kross navigates a moral crossroads where the lines between justice and vengeance are blurred. Catch season two of Cross, with a new episode dropping weekly, now streaming only on Prime Video.