Dave Mack (3:35)

We know that we when Savannah Guthrie posted the video the other day, it was so shocking that a lot of people missed what she said. She said that her mother was taken from her bed in the middle of the night. That tells us everything that we originally thought that the intruder or intruders came into the home, snuck into her room, awakened her out of a dead sleep and took this 84 year old grandmother out of her own bed. What it does also tell us, Nancy, is that we might have forensic evidence left behind on the bed, in the bedroom, on the floor, on the nightstand. There's no any wonder of places where our kidnapper or kidnappers could have touched, dropped, felt, anything. But again, taken out of her bedroom. Think about that for a minute. 84 years old and you're pulled out of bed. It's not an easy trip.

Nancy Grace (4:39)

Joining us, Misty Gillis, DNA expert, investigative genetic genealogist at Parabon Nanolabs. This is one of their specialties at Parabon. They focus on very difficult cases like a minuscule amount of DNA, degraded DNA, a mixture of DNA. When you are Misty, thank you for being with us. When you hear the latest that Nancy was taken out of her bed, forcibly taken, what DNA possibilities does that open up in your mind?

Misty Gillis (5:13)

That opens up the possibility of there being trace amounts of DNA found in that bedroom area. Like like it was said, possibly it was a nightstand that was touched. Possibly the forcible removal of Nancy had left trace DNA in that bedroom area. There must be a reason investigators are exactly saying that it was the bedroom she was taken from versus answering her door.

Nancy Grace (5:36)

You know, I'm thinking through what we know now. What did the perp do in those critical 41 minutes? First of all, we know he got in. We see him coming in the front door. We know that when he left, the door remained unlocked. We don't know if it was locked when he entered. But to Mike Gould joining us, former Nassau county lieutenant, founding member of the New York Police Department K9 unit has led multiple, multiple investigations into missing people and even serial killers, including Gilgo Beach. Former National Guard and worked with the Secret Service with two presidents. Mike Gould, thank you for being with us. Let's just try to walk through now what I would always do on a crime scene is first take off my shoes, put on booties if we had them, and walk in very slowly. Why slowly? Because I wanted to look around. If I had the route the perp took step by step, with each step or two, I would Stop and look around because there might be a light switch, there might be a surface that could be touched. All sorts of possibilities open up if you look and take your time. So we know he comes in, we think, through that door. At least one perp comes in through the front door. What would you do with the knowledge that the first thing the perp does is go to Nancy Guthrie's room and forcibly removes her from her bed? We think that's the first thing he did. Maybe he checked to see if the nanny cams were working inside the home. We know there were nanny cams. So help us retrace what the perp did in those crucial 41 minutes and what evidence we can get from that, such as touch DNA.

Mike Gould (7:47)

Crime scene investigation is both an art and a science. And as you quite correctly said, Nancy, Nancy, it has to be methodically done and evidence has to be preserved. I have been critical of the sheriff in this case from day one, and I got criticism from my fellow colleagues in law enforcement for doing that. It is not a criticism of the investigators. It's not a criticism of the FBI. It's the criticism not personal. This sheriff is not a trained public information officer. He's not familiar with media relations, and he just shouldn't be spouting out and blaming the media for overreacting and so forth. So my criticism hasn't changed. I don't. The analysis has not changed at all. If you think about what has changed in the last almost month now, as far as evidence is concerned, when you

Nancy Grace (8:37)

think and try to retrace what the perp did upon entering Nancy Guthrie's home, that's what I want to focus on. I want to focus on getting evidence. For instance, Misty Gillis, Back to you. DNA expert, eight years with over 40 positive leads generated in cold and active cases. That is a lot. That's cracking a case about once a week. That's pretty impressive. In your line of work, what difference would it make, for instance, if Nancy Guthrie had hardwood or carpet, tablecloths or no tablecloths, tchotchke sitting around, little items and figurines, or none. A dog, a cat, or no dog or cat. All of these things equal evidence. Explain, Misty.

Misty Gillis (9:31)

You're going to want to look at those more porous samples. There's a device called an M Vac that's essentially a wet vacuum that will pull DNA and forensic evidence from those porous surfaces. So if there was something like carpeted flooring and he wasn't wearing booties, he say had touched the carpet, touched the Bedding touched the pillow, that MVAC could pull that DNA evidence from that porous surface. When it gets to more non porous surfaces like hardwood and things like that, trace evidence can still be pulled.

Nancy Grace (10:01)

Okay, slow down just a second, Misty, if you don't mind. I want to make sure I understand everything that you just said. That was a lot. You were talking about the bedding. Okay, now you've gotten past the door. If her door was closed and he touched the doorknob, he very likely turned on the light switch. He may have touched the bed frame itself or her bedside table. He may have touched her cell phone, which we understand was near her bedside that was left behind. Okay, so we've gotten past that, and I'll circle back to carpet, hardwood, pet. No pet tchotchke figurines sitting around or none. I want to circle back to that. You've taken me straight to the bedroom. So we have.

Misty Gillis (10:47)

You want to start from the door,

Nancy Grace (10:48)

gone from the front door. Suddenly we're in the bedroom.

Mike Gould (10:52)

Okay.

Nancy Grace (10:52)

What?

Misty Gillis (10:53)

So walking in the door, there could be carpet on the ground, There could be hardwood flooring. If there's carpet, that's a porous sample that could. An M vac could be used on to collect DNA from. There could be a touch on a light switch, There could be a touch on a table. There could be objects that are touched that could be swabbed for that trace DNA. Now, as he makes his way throughout the house, there could be multiple touch points. There could be a railing on the stairs, There could be a wall that could be touched. Those are surfaces that could be swabbed for that trace DNA as well. And then once he enters the bedroom again, we have things like light switches, we have a nightstand, we have the possible headboard. If he did physically remove her from the bed, there could be DNA that's left on that bedding, on those pillowcases, on her cell phone that perhaps was on the nightstand. These are all areas that need to

Mike Gould (11:44)

be looked at for that trace.

Nancy Grace (11:50)

Crime stories with nancy grace. We're talking about the bedding, the COVID the sheets, the pillowcase. How do you get DNA off of that? As opposed to a hard surface, what

Misty Gillis (12:07)

we would typically use is a device called an M Vac. It's a wet vacuum that is used to essentially go over the surface. Think of a carpet cleaner. But it's specifically made with a filter that collects DNA. And that filter can be swabbed and a profile can be developed from what was collected from that bedding, for example.

Nancy Grace (12:26)

Now, let me understand That M Vac would be used on a porous surface such as the bedding, Is that what you're saying?

Misty Gillis (12:34)

Yes.

Nancy Grace (12:35)

As opposed to what would you use on a hard surface such as your night table?

Misty Gillis (12:40)

Traditional collection on most surfaces would be swabbing of the surface to collect DNA degenerate a profile.

Nancy Grace (12:47)

41 minutes in the home Joining us in addition to Dave Mack, Mike Gould and Misty Gillis is Scott Eicher, former FBI cast member, former homicide with Norfolk, Virginia Police Department, now at PrecisionCellular Analysis. PCAExperts.com Scott, thank you for being with us. It's very wrenching to think of Nancy Guthrie sound asleep, getting yanked out of her bed at 2 o' clock in the morning. That gives me a lot of ideas about the profile of the defendant.

Scott Eicher (13:28)

I agree. When Savannah said yesterday that, you know, her mother was taken from the bed, that really just kind of lit up in my head, is that, wow, she didn't answer the door. That was a targeted situation where they actually went to her room, probably had to get her dressed if they were going to take her out. She's probably in a nightgown. So what are they doing there for that 41 minutes? That's a lot of time. I mean, you're dealing with an elderly lady obviously. They're obviously leaving more DNA in there the longer they're staying in the house. But from my aspect, 41 minutes in that area, that helps me narrow down the amount of phones that are being used by the cell phone towers in the area. Now, I'm not just looking for maybe a car that drove through in five minutes. I'm looking for a phone that was there for 30, 40 minutes an hour. If they were there ahead of time, that helps me narrow down the phones that I'm going to concentrate on and try to identify.

Nancy Grace (14:32)

Okay, let me see. Scott Eicher. Scott, not everyone is familiar with the cellular analysis survey team. I'd heard of it, but I first learned a lot about it during the Alex Murdaugh double murder trial. Remember when the Secret Service guy had to come down about cracking open one of the cell phones? That said Cass has been responsible for getting obtaining a lot of information in this case. You were talking about, you're not looking for a phone that was just circling the area, maybe making a delivery or driving home late at night. You're looking for a phone that was in the area for those 41 minutes. What exactly would you be looking for?

Scott Eicher (15:20)

Well, we know all the phones. If the personal phones and phones in cars, they touch the network Constantly, either through data sessions or phone calls or text messages. So we can look at this tower dump that's basically asking the phone companies, all three of the major ones, to give us all the phones that use the towers that surround Nancy Guthrie's residence for a certain amount of time frame. And then that might, say two hours before and after the crime. Now we've got thousands of phones that were in that tower dump, and we have to figure out how to narrow them down. Ones that might be the residents that live there. That makes sense. They were there all night. The ones that came in quickly and left might have been a delivery man. The ones. Now, we can narrow it down a little bit further because we're thinking that the suspects were there for at least 40, 45 minutes, maybe even longer, based on them, you know, parking and coming up to the house. So that helps us narrow down the phones and vehicles and other devices so we can hopefully identify a suspect.

Savannah Guthrie (16:32)

Hi there. Coming on to say it is day 24 since our mom was taken in the dark of night from her bed. And every hour and minute and second and every long night has been agony since then. Of worrying about her and fearing for her, aching for her, and most of all, just missing her, just missing her. We know that millions of you have been praying. So many people have been praying of every faith and no faith at all, praying for her return. And we feel those prayers. Please keep praying without ceasing. We still believe. We still believe in a miracle. We still believe that she can come home. Hope against hope. As my sister says, we are blowing on the embers of hope. We also know that she may be lost. She may already be gone. She may have already gone home to the Lord that she loves and is dancing in heaven with her mom and her dad and with her beloved brother Pierce, and with our daddy. If this is what is to be, then we will accept it. But we need to know where she is. We need her to come home. For that reason, we are offering a family reward of up to $1 million for any information that leads us to her recovery. All of the information about this reward and the details is in the caption below. You can call the 1-800-TIP-RINEL. You can be anonymous if you want. Someone out there knows something that can bring her home. Somebody knows. And we are begging you to please come forward now. We also know that we are not alone in our loss. We know there are millions of families that have suffered with this kind of uncertainty. And for that reason, today, we also are donating $500,000 to the national center for Missing and Exploited Children for their work and helping families who are coping with loss and actively looking for those who are lost. We are hoping that the attention that has been given to our mom and our family will extend to all the families like ours who are in need and need prayers and need support. So please, if you hear this message, if you've been waiting and you haven't been sure, let this be your sign to please come forward, tell what you know and help us bring our beloved mom home so that we can either celebrate a glorious, miraculous homecoming or celebrate the beautiful, brave and courageous and noble life that she has lived. Please be the light in the dark. Thank you.

Nancy Grace (20:36)

Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, missing, Fearing

Savannah Guthrie (20:42)

for her, aching for her, and most of all, just missing her. Just missing her.

Nancy Grace (20:51)

That's almost all we have is the video of the porch guy. But I guarantee you it's not all that there is. Is there more video? Is it being scratched right now? We believe it is. Straight back out to Scott Eicher joining us from Precision Cellular Analysis. Scott, you are talking about not just snagging cell phones in the area, but now you're looking for a cell phone that was in her residence for 41 minutes, unlike a smartwatch. And we saw evidence of this in the Barry Morphew trial. His wife, Suzanne Morphew was murdered and her bone, her remains thrown in a so called burial ground boneyard in a remote area. But according to the prosecution in that case is yet to be proven. He's innocent until proven guilty. They could track and I've seen other cases like this, they could track movements of victim or defendant by their smartwatch. And according to the prosecution in that case could see a chase ensuing in the home before Suzanne Morphew was killed. Another case like that was Richard Debate. And he insisted to police that armed intruders entered his home, tied him up, murdered his wife and he miraculously survived. There was no theft, there was no rape. But when police tested the evidence scientifically, the smartwatch, it showed his wife up walking around the house long after he told police she had been shot dead. Long after. And there have been many other cases. That's just two examples that you can find evidence of to prove what happened, happened with Nancy Guthrie. What I'm talking about. We don't know if she had on a smart watch and we don't know if the perp had on a smartwatch, one of the perps, because I'm convinced there's an accomplice. I also am Convinced that the perps were wearing watches. We know they had walkie talkies because there's one jutting out of the porch guy's pocket. There you go. Thank you. That right? Yes, thank you. When we blow that up, it's a walkie talkie. But don't you know if they outfitted themselves in this manner? Look at that. Yes. If they outfitted themselves in this manner and they had the walkie talkies and they came with the bite light and they came with the backpack stuffed to the gills, they were probably keeping the time, right? Now, I guarantee you they ain't using a Timex. So if they had a smart watch. Help me out, Iker. Throw me a bone here. What can I do with a smartwatch?

Scott Eicher (24:04)

We've seen that in numerous cases. Smartwatches, Fitbits, any of those devices can help investigators narrow down times, follow locational information. If it has a cellular connection, like my watch is a smartwatch, an Apple watch, it also has its own cellular connection. So that's a whole nother device that the investigators from CAST can track via the tower dumps. Now, there are devices that just have WI fi, and my watch didn't have cellular. Google can track that based on WI fi connections in the area. So there's a lot of different ways for us to get additional data, but it's a, it's a vast amount of stuff to deal with, so it has to be narrowed down, and that takes time.

Nancy Grace (24:54)

Okay, See, when you just throw out a bomb like that, you think I'm not going to follow up on that? That's why we have something called re cross examination. Okay, Scott, remember, we're mere mortals. We don't work at Precision Cellular Analysis. We weren't on cast. We didn't found the cellular analysis survey team like you did. So you got to slow it down. Slow down, Nellie. I need to hear everything you just said. Just be glad you were not a medical examiner in one of my cases. They would hide under their desk when they saw my beat up Honda pulling up. I need to understand what you just said. Now, first of all, can a smartwatch be tracked as easily as a cell phone, or is it a whole different animal?

Scott Eicher (25:42)

If it has cellular connection like my watch does, it has its own cell phone in it. It can be tracked just like a cell phone.

Nancy Grace (25:50)

Well, are there smartwatches that don't have cell connections?

Scott Eicher (25:54)

Yes, there's a lot of them that just have a bluetooth connection to your phone.

Nancy Grace (25:59)

Well, if they just have a bluetooth connection to your phone, can that be tracked.

Scott Eicher (26:04)

It's tougher if it's part of the phone and connection to the phone via Bluetooth and it's logged into your account like a Google account as a device, then Google can, if you give Google permission, provide locational information on that device.

Nancy Grace (26:25)

Okay, hold on, hold on. I'm trying to make sense of what you're saying. You know, I can get a ton of evidence, but it's got to be marshaled. It has to make sense before you can use it. It's like you dump a big bag of clay. That's nothing until I mold it and work with it and understand what the evidence is so I can use it to prove something. So you're telling me if you've got a smartwatch that is cellular, you know, like people can send messages and so forth from their cell, from their watch, that can be tracked like a cell phone. Is that correct?

Scott Eicher (27:04)

That is correct.

Nancy Grace (27:06)

Just like a cell phone.

Scott Eicher (27:09)

Just like a cell phone.

Nancy Grace (27:12)

When cast is looking and trying to get the data dump of all the cell phones in the area, how does that show up as opposed to a cell phone?

Scott Eicher (27:24)

Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference in the data that we get from the phone company. There are some codes in the record company. They kind of help us figure out if this phone number or this device ID is a phone or a watch or a car. Because you remember, we're dealing with cars that have cell phones in them, too, embedded into the body of the vehicle. So we have to kind of fold that data into and sort it based on different ideas of, all right, this is a vehicle, this is a car, this is a phone, this is an iPad. And then we kind of try to narrow it down based on time frames like we were talking about.

Nancy Grace (28:09)

Okay, so, but the reality is, Scott Eicher, you're telling me it's very hard when they're going through the data dump to tell if it's a cell phone. A WI FI car like Uconnect, which comes in a lot of cars, like my beat up Chrysler minivan, has it, cell phone, car, smartwatch. But the reality is, is it doesn't matter which one it is. If it's there at the time she's kidnapped for those critical 41 minutes, they're on it. Then they can sort out what it is. Okay, got it. So it can be tracked if it's connected to cell, or it can be tracked if it's Bluetooth connection to a phone logged into an account. Okay.

Scott Eicher (28:57)

And WI fi.

Nancy Grace (28:58)

And WI fi. Okay. Earlier, Scott, I Asked you if Bluetooth use such as her pacemaker could be picked up historically. In other words, does it have to be in the area at that moment when the blue fly signal sniffer flies through? Or can you retrace the Bluetooth activity like we do a cell phone? Like. I know this is getting very technical and my wording is from is vernacular from a layperson, but what I'm trying to say is if the smartwatch the perp was wearing was connected to Bluetooth at the time of the kidnapping, can you go back and see that? Or can you only identify Bluetooth activity if it's happening at the time you're searching?

Scott Eicher (29:51)

All right, you've got several different questions there. So let me try to cut that down a little bit. Bluetooth is a connection between two different devices, right? And there are Bluetooth receivers in places like airports, subways, stuff like that. And some of that can be captured historically if it's logged. But that's not going to be the situation here when we're dealing with trying to find Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker. We can't see anything historical. We're just out there searching with our Bluetooth sniffer scanner trying to see if we can pick up the, you know, the emissions from that pacemaker every couple of seconds that it does that.

Nancy Grace (30:37)

By the way, guys, that video we were just showing you with the signal sniffer, which is really high tech Blue fly technology, is from our friends at Fox News. This is important and I want to say it correctly, Scott, so I'll have to have you repeat it correctly for me. If the pert was wearing a smartwatch, a watch that wasn't cell but was Bluetooth, can CAST FBI go back and identify it? If it happened at the time of

Scott Eicher (31:10)

the kidnap, that is a possibility. And let me explain why. Google tracks devices related to your account either via Wi Fi, cellular, Bluetooth or gps. So if it's connected to his service, and in this case, cast would go to Google and say, give us all devices in and around Nancy Guthrie's residence during this time frame, and that's all devices. And some of those devices could be phones, some of those could be watches, some of those could be iPads with WI fi, stuff like that. So there's a possibility, but there's a lot of limitations to it.

Nancy Grace (32:01)

Is that a yes or a no?

Scott Eicher (32:03)

That's a maybe.

Nancy Grace (32:05)

Okay, I was going to give you that alternative, but I didn't want that alternative. I wanted a yes. You didn't think you did, but I didn't get It. So I'm going to work with what I've got. Can I remind you of something, Scott Eicher? Do you know the name Lakin Riley? The nursing student that went jogging at University Georgia campus and she was attacked and assaulted.

Scott Eicher (32:28)

I was on your show.

Nancy Grace (32:29)

And murdered. Yeah, I was wondering if you remember that she had a Garmin Garmin smartwatch on. And that smartwatch revealed her struggle to live. And it even showed when Lakins heart stopped beating. So is Garmin Bluetooth or is it cell?

Scott Eicher (32:58)

It can be either. Oh, now that was.

Nancy Grace (33:04)

You're not helping me at all, Iker.

Scott Eicher (33:08)

It could be cellular or Bluetooth and WI fi. But that, you know that, that Garmin information was very important in that case because it showed her walking, gave her location, gave her a heartbeat. Even when the paramedics came by later and tried to revive her, they got. They could reflect the garment, reflected them doing CPR on her. Very important information for some.

Nancy Grace (33:33)

And you've got a good memory, Eicher. You know, you ought to be with the FBI, man. My point is, guys, this is how you prepare for a trial, or at least how I prepared for a trial. This is what you do before you put the witness on the stand. You hash out whatever probative information they have. And what I've gotten from Iker is that if the perps, and I guarantee you they were synchronizing, guarantee you with their walkie talkies and their ski masks and their devices that they brought with them crammed into their backpack, they were all ready, right? I guarantee you they were synchronizing. If they were, and I have reason to believe they were, they were wearing smartwatches. And now Iker, who trust me, knows what he's talking about, is telling me that those smartwatches can be tracked just like cell phones, provided they have cellular. And even if they're only Bluetooth, there's a chance at that as well. What happened in that critical 41 minutes? Crime Stories with Nancy grand coming on

Savannah Guthrie (35:05)

to say it is day 24. Since our mom was taken in the dark of night from her bed.

Nancy Grace (35:15)

We are learning a lot tonight about the search for Nancy Guthrie. We are learning that volunteer searches are going further toward Mexico. Also straight out to Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter. We know that the backpack that was found by a couple has been ruled out. Why?

Dave Mack (35:35)

It didn't fit any of the descriptions that were seen on the video on the porch. And they were able to. Investigators were able to rule it out very quickly. It was not even the right brand not the right color. Nothing matched up with what they were actually looking for.

Nancy Grace (35:52)

Dave Mack. What I understand is after reviewing the bag and what was inside the bag, it was determined not to be a viable lead. We find out the bag had been outside in the elements for much longer than three weeks. It also contained identification of a miner inside. I don't know hello Kitty stuff. I don't know what it could have been in there. But you see, the backpack that the, the front porch guy is wearing is seemingly new. And what they found had been out in the elements for quite some time. To Mike Gould joining us, former Nassau county lieutenant, founding member of the New York Police Department K9 unit, who has led multiple homicide investigations. Again, Mike, thank you for being with us tonight. How do you look at a backpack and determine if you it's been out there longer than three weeks, Right.

Mike Gould (36:59)

So environmental conditions will predict what a piece of clothing or an article of evidence should look like three weeks after. So if it looks like it's pristine, we can kind of guess, right? If you see a piece of clothing or backpack that's been sitting around for a year or two, it's going to be different than one that has been out there for two or three weeks. Two or three weeks. It should be in pretty good condition. You know, again, every. All of what we're talking about is based on environmental conditions. Heat, rain, all of these things affect the durability of evidence.

Nancy Grace (37:31)

You have trained and led canine units. You founded the NYPD canine unit, for Pete's sake. I recall in the Lacy Peterson case, Mike, that one dog tracked Lacey scent from Modesto to the San Francisco Bay Marina. Tell me how the canines should have been used in Nancy Guthrie's case.

Mike Gould (38:04)

Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. So what we don't realize is properly trained, properly calibrated dogs, police dogs, are scientific instruments admissible in court. Polygraphs are not. But dogs are admissible as scientific instruments if they are, as I said, properly calibrated and trained. Unfortunately, us humans don't understand how a dog can detect your remote control hidden under the couch pillows. We don't understand it because we use our eyes and ears. So if we have amplified sound, we know what amplified sounds like. We know if we look in a telescope, we can see stars that are undetectable by our normal vision. But there is not one, there's not one scientific instrument available today, and I've been Saying this for 40 years, Nancy, that can duplicate the abilities, the odor detection abilities of a properly trained dog. And that's, of course, finding evidence is what dogs do. Finding human remains is what cadaver dogs and human remain detection dogs. That's what they do. DNA experts identify. Dogs find. DNA experts identify.

Nancy Grace (39:14)

So what should they have done when they got to the Nancy Guthrie scene?

Mike Gould (39:18)

In any investigation I've been involved with, dogs are the primary evidence recovery tool. Even as you see now, people are walking through, volunteers are looking with their eyes. You can't detect invisible things that are invisible. So dogs obviously, in my biased opinion, should have been all over the perimeter, maybe not so much inside the house, unless they were looking specifically for human remains that may have been hidden, hidden there. But they should be all around the perimeter to this day. And as the dust settles in this case, it's going to be my prediction that dogs are going to contribute to finding further evidence as time goes by, because that is, as I said, their specialty in odor. So to answer your question, dogs should be all over that. All dogs are specialists in detecting odorless substances, narcotics dogs, explosive dogs, cadaver dogs. It never ends. We can detect cancer in human bodies. We can detect insects in your house. So it never ends. The question is, what dog, what instrument? As I say, scientific instrument. That's to me what a dog is. Which scientific instrument are you deploying? So initially, as I said, dogs should be searching for hot evidence. It's not Nancy Guthrie's odor they're trailing in this case, it's just any hot evidence. Even now, dogs in the desert will detect anomalies in the desert that then require corroboration from law enforcement. I've worked nobody homicide cases. So you can't make the presumption that a dead body was in Nancy Grace's trunk without some type of corroborating evidence, I.e. dNA, hair tissue, something else. So dogs, again, they're incredible scientific tools, but they have to be utilized and deployed properly. And law enforcement has to understand it very frankly. Frankly, law enforcement doesn't clearly understand the value of dogs just because it's like a magician doing a trick. So we can't fathom how could a dog smell a pot of soup cooking in your kitchen and detect the ingredients, break down each individual ingredients. Carrots, onions. We can't fathom that. So therefore, we don't understand the capabilities of dogs. And this has been my frustration for, as I said, 40 years. I used to train dogs to find remote controls or portable phones for a retailer here in New York that was getting ripped off by employees stealing phones, portable phones. Once I trained the dog to find lithium batteries, then the dog, once they isolate the odor Once science isolates the odor, which they do, incredibly, now more than ever, you isolate these odors, you train the dog to find this isolated odor called volatile organic compounds. Each. Everything has a signature. Every odor, every pen in your possession, your microphone, your clothing. Everybody has a scent signature. And once a dog that is isolated, they can't be beat. So, again, yeah, this is my thing. But again, it's frustrating when I see 20 people, law enforcement, and volunteers trampling through a crime scene. They can't detect anything. You could be stepping on valuable evidence. A cigarette butt. Almost anything can be valuable when it's corroborated.

Nancy Grace (42:41)

So, Mike, are you telling me that you don't get the dog out of the vehicle and give him, for instance, Nancy Guthrie's shirt that she was wearing the night before, and they smell it, and they take off running? That's not real.

Mike Gould (42:57)

No, it is absolutely real. And that's called a trailing dog. So as going back to my point, they're specialists. So trailing dogs. And they're hard to train. They're not even available that much. It's a very specific thing. But in the in, there's been evidence of dogs trailing odor. Skin cells, microscopic skin cells, vapor cells. So they can. But it's probably not likely that in this case, a trailing dog would be effective in my estimation.

Nancy Grace (43:27)

Why?

Mike Gould (43:28)

I'm not sure. We're making an assumption that she was taken in a car. Number one. They would have been valuable tracking outside almost immediately. Because very frankly, when burglars or criminals, they don't go far. They usually circle around. They're in the backyard. I've stepped on burglars in the middle of the night. Literally stepped on them because it's in the dark with a flashlight. They're in the dark. They have dark clothing on. And my dog started biting at my shoes, and I got pissed off at him and wanted to correct him. Guess what? I was standing on the bad guy within 100 yards of the crime scene.

Nancy Grace (44:05)

Well, we know Nancy Guthrie was not left at the crime scene. We know she's nowhere around the home, so she had to be transported away. Can dogs follow her scent even if she's in a vehicle? Providing law enforcement hasn't contaminated the scene so badly.

Mike Gould (44:25)

Again, I don't want. It's possible, but the more you get to these kind of Rin Tin Tin scenarios, Lassie finding Timmy in the well, the less reliable this evidence is. So I completely agree with you that she's not there. But if law enforcement, which they should be doing a concentric circle starting from the blood droplets on the porch, which I'm sure they did. But they should be circling outward, outward, outward, outward, outward. Till the point that that whole area was inspected, in my opinion, with a dog, because humans, it's invaluable. They're doing the right thing. They're walking around looking. What are they looking for? They're not looking for evidence because they don't know what evidence will look like. That's what happened with the glove. You know, the glove that we spent a few days speculating that it looked like the glove on the video. It was found two miles away. I never gave any credence to that. The fact that that was going to be. Of course, all of these things have to be pursued. Every lead has to be pursued without a doubt. But some are more credible than others. And that, frankly, to me, was never a credible piece of evidence. Just based on it. Look like a glove. If you go around my two miles from where I'm sitting right now or two miles where you're sitting right now, you will find all. You go to a homeless encampment going to find gloves, backpack, shoes, clothing. So again, I need to stick with facts and not get drawn into rabbit holes.

Nancy Grace (45:52)

Since Savannah guthrie's latest plea for information regarding her mother was issued and her family upping the reward, which is now at $1,202,000, tips are pouring in. If you know or think you know anything, you don't need a million dollars fine. Plenty of people do. Please dial toll free, 800-225-5324. Repeat, 1-800-225-5324. Or if you wish to remain anonymous, dial 520-882-7463. Repeat, 520-882-7463. Even if you remain anonymous, you will be able to get the million dollar reward. Nancy grace signing off. Goodbye.