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- [00:00]
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- [01:41]
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- [02:41]
Nancy Grace
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing day 33. This as her son in law who came under fire early on, not here, but by others attacking him, breaks cover, subjecting himself to the glare of the camera. And did the perp return to the scene? Is there a way to catch him on video if he did? Many others have made that mistake. This as we learn about a glove found nearby allegedly ruled out because it belonged to a restaurant worker. Really? Has everybody in that restaurant been ruled out? And why was that glove close to Nancy Guthrie's home? Tonight we learn Nano says the end is near. But is it? Nano's under fire. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. The children of Nancy Guthrie coming to the location where flowers have been laid out in her honor. Savannah on the left you see Annie on the right and I believe in the middle is Nancy Guthrie's son in law. This is a heartbreaking moment for this family. Savannah hugging her brother in law. Together united hugging her brother in law. Okay, straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of the LA jurisdiction. She is author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock and find her at drbethanymarshall.com Dr. Bethany Marshall, I may not be in Nanos's war room, but I can tell you this much. I know Savannah from way back when we worked together at Court TV. And I can tell you this, Dr. Bethany Marshall, she would not wrap her arm around a guy that she suspected in her mother's kidnap until hell freezes over. What about it, Bethany?
- [05:09]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
If she suspected him, Nancy, there would be massive division within the family. This brother in law would not even be living with with the family. He would be somewhere else. He would be with his own relatives. But it appears that he is united with Savannah and with Annie Guthrie. He has been living with his wife. And I think, Nancy, that he has been targeted because he's a man. He may be one of the lower wage earners in the family. He has things that makes him vulnerable and a target to the public. But that family loves him. He's the son in law. He's the brother in law. He's there. And I think it is tragic that the family has had yet another assault which is an assault on their own family member.
- [05:55]
Nancy Grace
The Son in law breaking cover after being attacked and maligned in the news. Okay, Dave Mack joining us, crime stories, investigative reporter. Tell me about what we're seeing right now.
- [06:08]
Dave Mack
What you're actually seeing is the Savannah's first public appearance. She has only been seen on video since this story broke. This is her first public appearance and it is at the home of her mother. You notice that makeshift memorial was set up just off Nancy Guthrie's property because it was just done by neighbors and friends coming by and setting it up just off the property. But Savannah and Tommaso and Annie and all of them cleared of any involvement in this case. But as you mentioned, you know, Tommaso has taken a lot of heat. And him showing up and when you see them all arm in army, it really does give you that sense of unity that they have been projecting. Now, Cameron, Savannah's older brother, he's not present. We don't know if he is in Arizona or if he's gone back home. We don't know that yet. But we have seen the flared. And then again, seeing this unity and placing a card at the memorial. Very, very emotional, Nancy. Very emotional.
- [07:10]
Nancy Grace
Oh, my stars. You know, Dr. Bethany, I could hardly stand to look at the flowers when my dad passed away. I could hardly stand it. It reminded me so much of the flowers when my fiance was murdered. To this day, I cannot stand to be around a carnation. It physically, to this day, makes me feel nauseous from Keith's funeral. But that said, that is heartbreaking right there. That is heartbreaking. Them walking up to that and knowing they're on camera to boot at their mom's flower honorarium. And I'm not saying memorial because I don't care what anybody says. I'm not giving up hope. There is still a hope. We can bring her home alive. Yes, I'm no idiot. I know the odds, but I'm still believing. But what they're going through is hell without the brother being tried and executed, tarred and feathered.
- [08:10]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
And the press, the tartan feather, Nancy, as I said earlier, it's yet another assault on the family. Nancy, they are out there placing flowers at the memorial for one very specific reason besides their love for their mother. They want us to keep praying and hoping. They rely on the public, on the neighbors, on the news, on people like you to keep this story alive, to keep the investigation ongoing. So they are encouraging us, the public. And tragically, Nancy, those flowers are yellow. You know the song tie yellow ribbon around the old oak tree? It was out about bringing Our veterans home or bringing our soldiers home. This is a plea from the public to bring Nancy Guthrie home. That is what the yellow means and that's why they are placing yellow flowers there. They are desperately want their mother home.
- [09:10]
Nancy Grace
From our friends at Fox, guys, we have an all star panel and you're seeing this from our friends at Today, the Today show where that anchor chair has been empty since Savannah's mother went missing. There have been fill ins but there's no replacement for Savannah. Again joining us, an all star panel. But I want to go out to Heather Barnhart. In the last hours, we see the family, including the brother in law, placing flowers at a public honorarium. I'm not ready to say memorial. I'm not going to go there yet. And you see Savannah with her arm. You know, a lot of times wives, they don't want to see that their husband is a piece of crap. Right? We all know that because love is blind. You want to believe the best. But Savannah, oh, H, E, double L, N. She's not going to drape her arm around him when she's thinking, yeah, he did it. That's not happening. But aside from human emotion and me trying to read Savannah's body language from behind, Heather Barnhart is joining us. Guys. She is an insane expert, I mean digital forensics expert with Cellebrite and we all know what that is after the Alex Murdock trial and after this investigation. She's with the Sans Institute systems admin, audit network and security. She is one this part I like the best. One of the digital forensic experts that helped crack the Bryan Kohberger case. And remember, he went back and back and back to the scene of the crime. And we're going to talk about why people do that. And did this killer do it? For Pete's sake, Nanos, I hope you're recording people coming back to the scene. Also co author of Practical Mobile Forensics now and it's for edition. What does that mean? That means it's in such demand that as each year passes, they update it to have the newest and the very best information in that. Okay, Heather, thank you for being with us. Now let's talk about something I do understand as opposed to body language. What would the FBI and nanos if somebody explained to him what to do do to rule out the son in
- [11:28]
Heather Barnhart
law, there has to be a fine tooth comb going through every digital artifact that belongs to him. Your phone has all the truth. Who do you communicate with? What do you search for? Where are you? What is your alibi in Order for someone to be cleared, you have to understand the due diligence that went into play here. So it's awful that people are still pointing the fingers back. It just keeps terrorizing the family.
- [11:53]
Nancy Grace
Okay, Heather, let me tell you what I read. X AKA Twitter, right before we came to air, all right? I read all of the ideas, and some of them are really very good. One person is now blaming the daughter, Annie. They're taking the picture of Annie and they're using the whites of her eyes when she looks to the side. You know, when you look to the side without moving your head, you can see more of the white of your eye. So they're taking that and they're then comparing the perp, who I now believe is a man at first looked very feminine. They're comparing that shot of the porch guy to Annie and saying that it's really Annie based on the whites of the eyes of the perp. I mean, stop, people, because I guarantee you the FBI has been 3 inches up all of these children's tailpipes from the get go. Because typically that's who did it. Someone within the family. Then you move out, out, out to friends, deliveries, granny nannies, churchgoers within her circle. But isn't the first thing that law enforcement does, Heather, is try to rule out the family?
- [13:11]
Heather Barnhart
Absolutely. That's what you always have to do. And also, I agree with you, Nancy. That is not Annie walking up onto that porch. And also, wouldn't she know that camera existed? Why would she have to go and grab some weeds from the garden and cover it? It makes absolutely no sense. And you can see the mannerisms there. But family always has to be ruled out because that's the easiest way. The inside knows the most about Nancy. So ruling them out has to be done, but with due diligence.
- [13:39]
Nancy Grace
Heather, I want to understand exactly how you rule someone out. And guys, we've got so much to get to. I don't want to belabor this point, but he. It would be a matter of looking at their cell phone data, not just where it was going, but who are they contacting, how often. When they were contacting people and had they bought a burner phone, you would look for that. You would trace their movements with their actual cell phone to see if they went to the Kwik Trip or the Circle K or wherever you can get a burner phone. You can get them anywhere. See, if a purchase had been made, they would be looking for that. They would be looking for where they had traveled in their vehicle, all leading up to Specifically in the two weeks leading up to Nancy's disappearance, they would go through all of their digital and remember at the get go, Heather, let's see that. That photo control room of when the feds were bringing out the box. The fed box that downloads all of your digital data. There you go. And there was another one too where the guy the was carrying looked like a messenger boy bag around his shoulder, over his shoulder. Oh, guys, this is from Kold and it was actually a U Fed. Heather, how does that work?
- [15:02]
Heather Barnhart
The U Fed is the hardware that we use to extract data from phones. So it will give us a full file system acquisition that allows us to look at every single piece of evidence, every artifact, every communication location that exists on that device. And when you see celebrate leaving and I know there's shirts and there's boxes and there's cases, that's actually a good sign. That means that law enforcement is doing their due diligence to get all of the information pertaining to the crime.
- [15:34]
Nancy Grace
So how would they track everybody? Heather and I know that you have to dummy down for all of us, but how would they track and or clear the son in law and the brother and the sister? People are even speculating that Savannah kidnapped her own mother. It's a waste of oxygen. But how do you track that and rule the people out? Because in the last hours we see the son in law breaking cover. And in a poignant and heartbreaking way. So how does it happen? I want to hear the fundamentals, the rudimentary explanation of how do you actually do it?
- [16:09]
Heather Barnhart
It's exactly what people see on tv. So you have to have an alibi. Did you take a polygraph proving your alibi is correct? Your phone is looked through, all your financial documentations and every purchase that you've made. Have you purchased weapons? Your location, artifacts? All of these things come into play to give a sound alibi. Clearing family from investigations like this. And this is something that law enforcement would not take lightly. It is on them to solve this. And they probably went through with such diligence because it's easy if the suspect is an insider, then you don't have to go out and looking at the public.
- [16:45]
Nancy Grace
Well, okay, let me be more pointed in my question, your honor. Let me rephrase. That's what I do when I have a witness that is not being responsive before I have to get really mean. Heather, how would you try. How would you figure out if somebody bought a burner phone? How would you start that investigation?
- [17:04]
Heather Barnhart
Well, that's a good question. Most people would do it with cash if you're smart. If you did it with a credit card that's easy to financially trace it back. But wherever burner phones can be purchased, think of Walmarts and locations like that. The CCTV footage of a person entering would be crystal clear there. Also, they would still ping cell towers because they have prepaid SIM cards in them. They have data plans so you can't hide from that tower data.
- [17:30]
Nancy Grace
You know when your technical, legal term really screwed, Heather Barnhart is when you buy a burner phone with cash and you use the fake name like Bugs Bunny. Because unlike t mobile or AT&T or VZW where it's under your name, there is an account with Heather Barnhart on it. It's got your address, it's got probably got your Social Security, it's probably got everything on there, your credit card that you pay with a burner phone you can put under any name and it doesn't have to be connected to you or any other mobile number. For instance, a lot of times when you start an email, you have to give your old email or you have to give some type of. Not with a burner phone. So if you go in and pay for it with cash, the feds, the government is screwed because they've got to figure it out. They have to look at burner phones in the area, narrow it down, then trace that burner phone and when they finally get to the store, they find out Bugs Bunny bought it, they're screwed because then they have to look for video surveillance to see if they can find the person. It's just, it's really hard if that's the way it went down. Heather, agree or disagree?
- [18:38]
Heather Barnhart
I kind of agree, but you're assuming that people are really smart. Most criminals aren't. So if I go buy a burner phone right now and I want to be Jessica Rabbit, that's great. But guess what? Heather Barnhart's device is right here beside me. They will talk to each other. It is almost impossible to hide your location even from burner phones. And those two devices will eventually communicate. So as smart as we want to be, digital evidence is smarter and it's really hard to outsmart that.
- [19:11]
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- [19:41]
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- [20:42]
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- [21:26]
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- [22:00]
Nancy Grace
Nancy Grace joining me now, Brian Fitzgibbons, director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security. He leads a team of trained investigators that go around the world trying to find missing people. He is a former marine, he is an Iraqi War vet. I think that says it all. Vice Gibbons, thank you for being with us tonight. I want you to weigh in and why do I care about the son in law being ruled out? Because that's one less person that everybody on the Internet has to focus on. Now we can redirect energy to finding the perks because if you go down a rabbit hole and it's the wrong rabbit hole, you're wasting a lot of time. And I have seen cases solved by citizen sleuths. Do I have to say Gabby Patino for the millionth time. But that said Fitzgibbons weigh in. The son in law breaking cover, being seen in public after being subjected to a tar and feathering like no other. Yeah, absolutely.
- [23:06]
Brian Fitzgibbons
And I want to add something here. Heather did a tremendous job of explaining, you know, the hard science behind getting this data. But folks need to understand after all that data was collected, the law enforcement has it and they're conducting interviews with the family and they're using that data to drive those questions. Right. And they're going to find out is there deception, are there patterns of deception, are there lies being told? And that's and obviously that didn't happen here. So the reality is that they weren't cleared just because the cell phone data was, was you know, cleared them. They were also cleared after extensive amounts of interviews and that I think that gets forgotten online that you know, there are professional investigators having those conversations and everything's coming up good for the family member.
- [24:03]
Nancy Grace
Fitzgibbons, do you believe the family took Polly's because I think they did.
- [24:08]
Dave Mack
I would think so.
- [24:09]
Brian Fitzgibbons
I think they did.
- [24:09]
Nancy Grace
I think they strapped that son in law to a Polly in a New York minute. Yes, absolutely. And that's to be expected. And I've said this, I'm screaming it again. Gold standard Mark Klaas, when his daughter Polly went missing they came from a spend the night in her home, in her mom's home. There were other little girls in the room. First thing they do, they bam on his door he goes, take my fingerprints, take my DNA. I'll give you an alibi. Search my home, search my car, search my office. So I'll take a poly so you can go find who has my daughter. Of course they would submit to a poly at the get go because that's SOP standard operating Procedure. You look at the family first. Does it, another technical legal term, suck. Yes, it does for the family. But they do it because they want law enforcement to move on to find the perp. So I imagine they all submitted to Polly's at the get go, Especially the son in law. He's part of the family, but he's not a blood relation. So they look at him first.
- [25:09]
Brian Fitzgibbons
That's spot on. And I want to add another thing. The amount of resources thrown at this in the first 30 days, okay? They absolutely would have focused hard on the son in law, on all the family members. And, you know, the logic tells us, given that there hasn't been an indictment on either one of them, that they've been cleared.
- [25:31]
Nancy Grace
One of the first pleas by Savannah Guthrie, and she is sitting with sister Annie and brother Cameron. Do you really think she would have sat there willingly, knowing her brother in law was part of the kidnapping plan?
- [25:51]
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- [26:02]
Heather Barnhart
She is funny, spunky and clever.
- [26:07]
Nancy Grace
She has grandchildren that adore her and crowd around her and cover her with kisses. And Annie has been attacked, of course. Her husband is the son in law we're talking about for not looking at the camera.
- [26:21]
Heather Barnhart
Look, we received your message and we understand.
- [26:26]
Nancy Grace
We beg you now to return our
- [26:29]
Heather Barnhart
mother to us so that we can celebrate with her.
- [26:33]
Nancy Grace
This is the only way we will have peace. To Dr. Bethany Marshall throughout. That was, I believe, the second plea that Savannah made with her brother and her sister with her, Annie could hardly look up. See, I didn't find that unusual given the circumstances.
- [26:50]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
Nancy, she's looking down because she's overwhelmed. She's disheartened, she's depressed. If she was looking straight at the camera, Nancy, that's a sign of defiance. That's a sign of defensiveness. It's appropriate that she looked down. And you know, Nancy, if it was a family member, I just want to say there would be so much behavioral evidence. And what I mean by that is that you would have one family member who would be saying, oh, can I pay mom's bills? Oh, can I have the number to mom's banking account? Oh, can I talk to mom's estate attorney? Oh, I have a big bill to pay. Will mom cover that for me? Let me spend time with mom today. There would be somebody within that family, and there is not who would have been targeting Nancy Guthrie financially. And we have not seen that. So there is no behavioral evidence whatsoever to support that there's a family member involved in her disappearance.
- [27:50]
Nancy Grace
Then the theories got crazier that the son in law was involved with an accomplice and that the accomplice was sending the ransom notes and the son in law had cut off contact so they both wouldn't be caught. I mean, it just spun out, out and out. That said, let's move forward with what we know. Dave Mack joining us. Crime stories investigative reporter. In the last hours, Nanos has said we're definitely getting close. Now, I don't know what that means in Nanos land, but can I talk to you about the glove, the restaurant glove that was found? Tell me in a nutshell, Dave Mack. A nutshell.
- [28:30]
Dave Mack
Glove found two miles away from Nancy Guthrie's house had DNA on it. They ran the investigation, ran everything they could on this glove. It traced back to a restaurant employee who the investigators have cleared as a potential suspect. Whatever alibi he had, check or she checked out. We do not know the name of the restaurant. We just know that that glove did not become part of the investigation. It was part from a restaurant worker.
- [28:58]
Nancy Grace
Well, I'm glad you told me that, Dave Mack, because I was concerned. And they went, oh, yeah, this glove, nothing to do with it. It belongs to a restaurant worker. But you're telling me they went ahead and cleared the restaurant worker. They did investigate it, correct?
- [29:12]
Dave Mack
Correct.
- [29:13]
Nancy Grace
Speaking of restaurant, did Nancy Guthrie unwittingly make herself a target? I reject the theory. This was a Savannah, Arizona homecoming where she went home and there she is with her mom, and they're out in a Mexican restaurant. There's Annie. I think that's Annie over to the left. I can't quite make it out, but this was on air how soon before the kidnapping? And that's from our friends at Today. When. When did this happen, Dave Mack.
- [29:46]
Dave Mack
That video actually aired just a couple of weeks before the kidnapping, Nancy. Because if you remember, Savannah had been off the show for weeks having surgery on her throat and was recovering from it. This was all part of the holidays and everything else coming back, showing Savannah out with her mother at their favorite Mexican restaurant.
- [30:08]
Nancy Grace
You know, I'm also. I'm thinking back, Dave, if you could refresh our recollection. Do you recall that odd Google search that searched for Nancy Guthrie's home address and Savannah's salary? Do you remember that search?
- [30:26]
Dave Mack
It was June of 2025.
- [30:29]
Nancy Grace
So the Google search was June of 2025. Okay. So that has really no beari the restaurant appearance. You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall. I think I worded that incorrectly. I said, did Nancy Guthrie unwittingly make herself a target that is somehow putting blame on the victim. What I meant to say, what I should have said is did some perv, some evil, hateful, mean spirited person see her on the Today show and target her? That's what I should have said because that appearance was coming from a place of love, not in any way the victim putting themselves making themselves a target.
- [31:17]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
If this was a result of a crazed fan who saw her in the restaurant, or a server perhaps who learned that, oh, this is Savannah Guthrie, then that would be more of a stalking scenario, Nancy and in a stalking scenario, these stalkers always write manifestos. You would see something on the Internet, something in somebody's home. They would have become preoccupied and started talking to a family member about it. There are no missives that have come in, no missives that we see prior to a kidnapping that is motivated by somebody's fame, right? So yes, you're right. She would not have made herself target. She's not making herself a victim. But I don't believe she's a target because of that. Anyway,
- [32:10]
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- [32:40]
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- [33:42]
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- [34:11]
Nancy Grace
Greenlight helps kids learn about money the way most of us never did by actually using it.
- [34:16]
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- [34:18]
Nancy Grace
that teaches kids to earn, save and spend in real life, not just swipe and hope for the best. Learning happens naturally in the moment. Parents can set limits, see spending in real time and guide better habits along the way all in one place without constant check ins or cash runs. Don't wait. Try Greenlight Risk free today@greenlight.com TryGreenlight crime stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us now, Brian Trasher, the vice president of the United Cajun Navy now in Arizona offering to help in a search for Nancy Guthrie. And it's my understanding, Brian Trasher, that Nanos has not responded. He needs all the help he can get. So I'm not sure what his delay is. But Brian, I want to ask you a pointed question. I noticed online that the United Cajun Navy is being attacked for soliciting donations. Aren't these volunteers? They don't expect to be paid. So are you soliciting donations and if so, why?
- [35:26]
Brian Trasher
So no, we've not asked for any donations or posted any donation links the entire time we've been in Arizona that it's just Internet trolls that we get every time we go anywhere. We've also publicly declined that we would take any reward if we qualified for any or directed to the center for Missing and Exploiting Persons or children, I think is the name of the organization. No, this isn't about donations. We already have very generous donors that have allowed us to be outing this assessment so that we could submit this detailed 41 page tactical plan to assist in the search for Nancy Guthrie.
- [35:59]
Nancy Grace
What are you offering to Nanos and what's his problem? Is he out at another basketball game and hasn't been able to respond?
- [36:07]
Brian Trasher
So you know, we have a lot of volunteers and assets. We have a lot of folks that are very experienced, current and former law Enforcement, military, all that kind of thing. Canine dogs, which are extremely beneficial in these types of searches. The first time we reached out just with a general offer, we did hear back from the PIO saying that they were not accepting help from external organizations. So we kind of. After Josh was out there finishing his assessment, we put together a full operational package and figured it couldn't hurt to submit it one more time just so they would know that, you know, we've come a long way from being just a bunch of guys on boats pulling people off roofs. We really do have a lot of really amazing assets and capabilities. This time, I don't believe we've gotten any answer at all. I think they've just kind of stuck to their. Their mantra that they want to leave it to the professionals. But we'd like to remind everybody that Noah's Ark was built by amateurs. The Titanic was built by professionals. I'm not sure why we couldn't be a force multiplier for them in this situation.
- [37:07]
Nancy Grace
Guys, with me, Brian Trasher, VP of the United Cajun Navy, offering to help Nanos. This as Nanos is coming under fire from inside his own department. And yet, yes, we could talk about that for the rest of our program, but it really doesn't advance the search for Nancy Guthrie to talk about what went wrong, except really what has been missed, when was it missed, and can it be fixed? But, you know, Brian Fitzgibbons, I want to follow up on what Trasher just said. Brian Fitzgibbons joining us from USPA Nationwide Security. You know, when you don't know a horse, look at his track record. We see Nanos turning down the Cajun Navy. We see him trying to shut out the feds, which was such a bad move. And we lost many, many days lead time on that move before the feds were finally brought in. And now it looks like he's doing it again.
- [38:07]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yeah. And it's important to point out here that a lot of law enforcement agencies simply don't have the mechanism or built to accept what would be very profitable help from the public and resources like the Cajun Navy. And that's disheartening to see. Adding to this, you know, the Pima County Deputies organization has been tremendously critical of nanos leadership in the past year. There have been votes of no confidence, and there's been a mass exodus of talented investigators in the last 12 months. So this has been widely reported by spokespeople from the Pima County Deputies Organization, which is their, you know, unionized body.
- [38:54]
Nancy Grace
Right. Dave Mack, I want to talk to you about vehicles and video. At the very beginning, I believe it was Nanos. It was stated that the neighbor's video, home surveillance video, which was about two and a half miles away from Nancy Guthrie's home, on a street that fed into Nancy street traffic, 12 cars between 12am 6am, one speeding by. Just eight minutes after Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker disconnected from Bluetooth when she's taken from the home. At first we were told, oh, that means nothing. Now I understand Nanos is stating it may mean something and they're trying to track down the vehicle. Is that True, Dave Mack?
- [39:35]
Dave Mack
Absolutely, 100% accurate. Nancy started off, they said, doesn't mean anything. Now they've looked at it, they're going, it means everything. You actually can see on this video, Nancy, the same vehicle going towards the Nancy Guthrie area and then another leaving the area at 2:36am 8 minutes, as you mentioned, after the Bluetooth disconnected between her pacemaker and her phone or watch.
- [40:04]
Nancy Grace
And where I'm going with this, Dave Mac, and this is to Brian Trasher from United Cajun Navy, is see, this is at 2.5 miles away from Nancy's home. They had originally set out, set up a dragnet, a radius of search, two miles. And this was just outside that. That video from our friends at Fox. By the way, if volunteers had been used, maybe that restaurant glove, other gloves, this video would have been found sooner. Now, I understand the problems with chain of custody. You can't hand over video to a volunteer. You gotta hold up the chain, hand that video over to law enforcement. But the Cajun Navy volunteers could have gone from two miles out, continued the search, gone door to door, asking people if they have surveillance video and then letting them hand it over to authorities. I mean, there's so much you guys could be doing and are willing to do. This is just one example. See, we're 20 plus days into it before we find out about that neighbor's video. That is a shame. And it could have been corrected.
- [41:14]
Brian Trasher
Yeah, you're right. And you know, we work with law enforcement agencies and agencies like the Coast Guard all the time. And what they do is they give us specific grids, say this is where we want you guys to search. And it's almost always separate and apart from where their own personnel are. So we're not interfering with their actual personnel. They don't ever give us any kind of evidence or things that aren't released to the public. I mean, they have to, they have to keep the chain of custody of those Things tight. We understand that. But that's the whole part, Nancy, of being a force multiplier is that you say, hey, this is. This is how far my agency can go. This is where we want the Cajun Navy to start out here, just like in Texas after the Hill country floods. We were working down river from the Coast Guard and the Texas Rangers, just in case there was anything that got past them. That's how NGOs like us can work with official agencies, very, very symbiotically and hopefully bring some good resolution to these families that are missing loved ones.
- [42:10]
Nancy Grace
And I'm not pro or anti the Cajun Navy. I'm pro finding Nancy Guthrie. That's what I'm about. So very quickly, all of these people, and I don't even want to show their pictures. Control room, don't do it. Do not do it. Freaks that are showing up trying to do selfie shots outside of Nancy Guthrie's home. They're ghouls, like vampires. And some of them wearing booty shorts and just very scantily clad. Just. It's just so wrong on so many levels. But that said, I'm wondering what you think about this Heather Barnhart and Brian Fitzgibbons. Let's go to Heather first. If surveillance is still there or working in the area to catch all the people coming back to the scene. Because, you know, unless they've already hightailed it left, left the jurisdiction, they've gone to ground, they may very well come back to the scene. I know it sounds crazy to us, it sounds crazy to me up here, but suspects do it all the time. And if surveillance video is working, 2 and 2 could equal 4.
- [43:42]
Heather Barnhart
And if you mix surveillance with cell tower pings, you have even more ammo to potentially find this person.
- [43:49]
Nancy Grace
This is the perp. He's got a bite light in his mouth. Dr. Bethany, why do people return to the scene? Okay, that's the perp that people online are saying is Annie, which is insane, by the way. Oh, and hey, control room, while you're at it, I was reading early, early this morning, someone asking, did I point out the different jackets. The guy with the backpack, the guy without the backpack, and I think they were at different times. At the very get go, I was talking to Dave Mack, and I said that the one on the right to me looks like a different jacket. It almost looks like it's got a Minecraft. My son's Minecraft hoodie that he had forever when he was a kid. But someone wrote today that it was a camouflage jacket, different from the one the purpose wearing the night of the kidnap. And they may very well be correct. Dave Mack, do you remember our conversation about how the jackets looked different? I don't know if we were on air or off air.
- [44:50]
Dave Mack
I remember you and I talked about it at length. And we didn't know at that time when the separate photos were taken. We didn't know if they were taken at the same time. And so we were very concerned about what that could. And we found out later on they were taken at different times, which really goes back to what you've talked about. This guy, this person planned this out enough to maybe have done a dry run through without the gun, you know, and just without the backpack, did a quick walk through to see what he was looking at, maybe, you know.
- [45:24]
Nancy Grace
Another thing I'm wondering about, and I'm going to circle back to Dr. Bethany about why people return to the scene is what's Google up to right now? Have they managed to get any more video? Is there audio that we haven't seen yet? But as we were talking earlier about returning to the scene, Dr. Bethany why do people do that? We know that Scott Peterson did it repeatedly, and we know that Peterson did it because he had a GPS tracker on his vehicle, including his super secret Batmobile. It had a tracker on it. Unbeknownst to him, he kept going out and staring out at San Francisco Bay. I guess he thought he'd see Lacey's body pop up, which it did, by the way. And then of course, Bryan Kohberger goes back to the scene like 11 times. I think looking at the scene after the murders. Freak. So why do they do it?
- [46:15]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
BETHANY well, you know, Nancy, the most common reason is we see think of Bryan Kohberger and Scott Peterson is that they're still glorifying the crime. They're going back to the glory days when they committed. There's a lot of satisfaction. But in this case, I think a reason that a pert might return is it's really determined by the intent of the crime. If the intent was stalking, then returning would be to gain proximity to the home. If the intent was financially motivated, it would be to see can they case the house out even more. Is there something that they can take from the house now that the house is not guarded? It could be motivated by paranoia just to see what's going on out there and are people like circling in closer to them. But I think most likely Nancy, whoever did this, is very attached to Nancy. Guthrie is very connected to her either sexually, financially, she's a target and being near her house is somehow would be exciting to them.
- [47:23]
Nancy Grace
Brian fitzgibbons, if the pert did return to the Saint, how would we catch him?
- [47:29]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yeah, just as Heather Barnhart said, they're definitely going to be pulling cell phone information, number one. Number two, it's very likely that there was additional cameras placed at the property by law enforcement to capture just that. And not to mention, there's been a consistent media presence out there in a consistent presence of law enforcement officials. So they're definitely running cars and plates of everybody who's driven by.
- [48:01]
Nancy Grace
You'd think, right? Brian fitzgibbons you'd think they are, but are they? Nobody here is giving up. If you know or you think you know anything about the disappearance of this beloved grandma Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll free 1-800-225-5324 repeat 1-800- call FBI or if you wish to remain anonymous, 520-882-7463. Repeat, 520-882-7463. There is a one point plus million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of Nancy Guthrie. It does not require an arrest or a conviction. 1.2 plus million dollar reward Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Good.
- [49:12]
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- [49:42]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
There's a fire inside you you can't ignore.
- [49:45]
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- [49:46]
Nancy Grace
Not a chance.
- [49:47]
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- [49:50]
Nancy Grace
Now we're here to help you keep going further.
- [49:53]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
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- [49:55]
Nancy Grace
Visit capella.edu to learn more.
- [49:57]
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- [50:42]
Nancy Grace
from Are youe a Charlotte Podcast.
- [50:44]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
I just had the most epic girls day cruising around LA with my friend Heather Graham, and thanks to Hyundai, we even recorded a special episode for you.
- [50:53]
Heather Barnhart
Sex and the City got me into
- [50:54]
Nancy Grace
Magnolia Bakery Cupcakes, which I'm obsessed with.
- [50:57]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
The last time we did a Hyundai
- [50:59]
Nancy Grace
film, we went to the Magnolia.
- [51:00]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
We sat on the bench. My new episode is out now, presented by the all new Hyundai Palisade Hybrid.
- [51:08]
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