SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 35

Summary

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 35
Date: March 7, 2026
Host: Nancy Grace | Guests: Pat Byrne, Dr. Bethany Marshall, Dave Mack, Heather Barnhart, Mary Coleman, Nancy Guthrie’s Family Member

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Episode Overview

This gripping episode dives into the ongoing investigation into the abduction of Nancy Guthrie, the 84-year-old mother of Today Show co-anchor Savannah Guthrie, missing for over a month from her Tucson home. Nancy Grace is joined by sleep expert Pat Byrne, psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, investigative reporter Dave Mack, digital forensics expert Heather Barnhart, local news anchor Mary Coleman, and heartfelt calls from family members. The discussion unpacks the latest on the case, including psychological angles, potential clues, digital and forensic developments, and the emotional impact on family and the community. Special focus is given to the family’s desperate plea for leads, the psychology of the perpetrator, and the significance of the escalating $1.2 million reward.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Night of the Abduction: Sleep Science and Vulnerability

(02:30 - 12:28)

• Pat Byrne analyzes Nancy Guthrie’s possible physical and mental state when she was taken:

  • Most likely asleep in a deep or REM sleep at 2:00 AM, causing disorientation and confusion (sleep inertia) if suddenly awakened.
  • Physical risk: Elderly people, especially those with heart conditions like Nancy (has a pacemaker), are at increased risk of heart attack when jolted awake.
  • In deep REM, a victim is physically unable to react (“When we dream, our bodies freeze…he could just pick her up. She couldn't even move.” – Pat Byrne, 05:38).

• Quote:

  "Our human brains do not go from fully asleep to fully awake... It's called sleep inertia. If she was in a deep sleep, then she would be incredibly confused.”
  — Pat Byrne, 03:58

• Practical Implication:

  • Nancy may have been unable to resist or call for help, which could explain the blood drops found at the scene, potentially the result of physical stress or injury during the abduction.

2. Crime Scene and Behavioral Analysis

(10:15 - 16:25)

• Nancy Grace and Pat Byrne hypothesize that sleep inertia might explain Nancy Guthrie’s actions in the moments after being awakened – possibly confused, stumbling, and dropping blood, reminiscent of patterns seen in other murder cases.

• The time of abduction (2-3 AM) is discussed:

  • Chosen by the perpetrator for low activity/higher success.
  • Suggests possible familiarity with the victim’s schedule or household.

• Quote:

  “Whoever knows about Nancy Guthrie's whereabouts... and does not act must have a heart of stone.”
  — Nancy Grace, 03:04 & repeated at 35:11

3. Family’s Emotional Pleas and Law Enforcement’s Progress

(11:11, 17:11, 29:50, 35:40)

• Nancy Guthrie’s family repeatedly addresses the public with gratitude and urgency, describing the ongoing agony and the light their mother brings to their lives.

• They urge anyone with knowledge, no matter how minor, to come forward, emphasizing the possibility that Nancy is still alive.

• Quote:

  “She was taken and we don't know where. And we need your help. So I'm coming on just to ask you, not just for your prayers... if there's anything at all that seems strange to you, that you report to law enforcement. We are at an hour of desperation and we need your help.”
  — Nancy Guthrie’s Family Member, 17:11

4. Psychological Profile of the Perpetrator

(19:05 - 24:39)

• Dr. Bethany Marshall analyzes the type of person capable of keeping an elderly woman captive and their motivations:

  • Perpetrator likely sees Nancy as a means to a financial end (targeting the Guthrie family’s wealth).
  • Obsessed or focused on Nancy for a long time, possibly talking about her or the family’s affluence.
  • Behavior to watch in acquaintances: Excitement rather than distress when discussing the case; frequent, detail-obsessed mentions of the case.

• Quote:

  “When you have a mark, when you're a perpetrator… you want to talk about it all the time. So I think it's going to be in the conversations people are hearing in their households.”
  — Dr. Bethany Marshall, 22:13

5. The Role of Ransom, Rewards, and Community Action

(25:12, 36:13, 37:07, 41:49)

• The reward has been raised to over $1.2 million, a calculated move after appeals to morality did not lead to tips or Nancy’s return.

• Large rewards are designed to break bonds of loyalty among perpetrators’ acquaintances – “That is big money. That's lifetime money.” (Dr. Bethany Marshall, 37:13)

• There has been an influx of tips (over 2,000), though many are unsubstantial; investigators hope even a small clue might make the difference.

• Quote:

  “There is a very specific psychology to offering rewards. And if they had offered that reward in the beginning, the perpetrator might have panicked and killed Nancy Guthrie.”
  — Dr. Bethany Marshall, 37:11

6. Forensics & Digital Evidence

(42:11 - 46:27)

• Heather Barnhart, a digital forensics expert, discusses:

  • The potential use of AI in drafting ransom letters, and how analyzing phrasing or digital footprints could lead to the kidnapper, even with privacy efforts like VPNs.
  • Security footage of fast-moving vehicles at the scene can be enhanced with AI tools to help identify make and model, narrowing down suspects. Even blurry footage can be clarified enough to investigate owners of similar vehicles nearby.

• Quote:

  “If AI was used to help write a ransom note, which is likely... this could tie back to a location and to a person in their home who potentially was behind that keyboard.”
  — Heather Barnhart, 42:55

7. Community and National Impact

• The case has captured nationwide attention, with increased focus across borders (investigation now reaching into Mexico and use of international DNA databases).
• The emotional stakes are repeatedly highlighted: the impact on the Guthrie family, their community, and the growing urgency as days pass.

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Notable Quotes & Emotional Moments

• Nancy Grace:

  “This is the hour of desperation.” (35:38)

• Nancy Guthrie’s Family Member:

  "The light is missing from our lives. Nancy is our mother. We are her children. She is our beacon." (30:44)

• Pat Byrne:

  “She would have had sleep inertia for, you know, full on sleep inertia for probably two or three minutes where it's like she would not know anything that's going on... But it would be, you know, 20, 30 minutes before her brain was completely fog free.” (11:41)

• Dr. Bethany Marshall:

  “If there's lack of empathy, then that is a possible suspect.” (23:52)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 02:30 — Case recap and introduction
• 03:58 — Pat Byrne: Sleep science and risk factors
• 06:33 — Effects of abrupt awakening (Heart attack risk)
• 10:15 — Sleep inertia and its effect on crime scene clues
• 15:09 — Possible perpetrator behavior & motivation for timing
• 17:11 — Family's direct plea and emotional impact
• 19:05 — Criminal psychology: Target selection and risk
• 22:03 — What to look for in potential suspects’ conversations
• 25:12 — Update on reward, tips, and family actions
• 29:50 — Family’s heart-wrenching tribute to Nancy
• 31:40 — Polygraph and DNA testing discussion
• 36:13 — How the reward and public attention may crack the case
• 41:49 — Update on volume and substance of tips
• 42:11 — Digital forensic tools: AI, ransom notes, and video evidence
• 46:27 — Appeal for public tips and hotline numbers

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Conclusion

This episode of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace presents a comprehensive, deeply empathetic look into the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. The hosts and experts weave together scientific, psychological, and investigative perspectives, urging the community to remain vigilant and proactive. The family’s agony is palpable, their gratitude sincere, and the call to action clear: the return of Nancy Guthrie hinges on someone breaking their silence.

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Tip Lines

• FBI Tip Line: 1-800-CALL-FBI (1-800-225-5324)
• Anonymous Tips (Tucson area): 520-882-7463

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“Please be the light in the dark.” — Nancy Guthrie’s Family Member, 03:16/35:23

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For updates and ways to help, follow Savannah Guthrie’s Instagram and contact law enforcement with any information.

Transcript

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[Nancy Grace]

Savannah Guthrie's mother Nancy Guthrie Missing Day 33 how is this possible in this day and age? With tens of thousands of tips video why is she still missing? Where is Nancy Guthrie? I'm Nancy Grace this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[Nancy Guthrie's Family Member]

Our mom was taken in the dark of night from her bed, and every long night has been agony since then.

[Nancy Grace]

Whoever knows about Nancy Guthrie's whereabout that sees that and does not act must have a heart of stone.

[Nancy Guthrie's Family Member]

Please be the light in the dark.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us now is a special guest, Pat Byrne. And I want to introduce you to Pat. He is a sleep expert and the founder of the Burn Fatigue Consulting Group. He is the author of Inconvenient Sleep, why Teams Win and Lose on Amazon, and he has analyzed the Nancy Guthrie case from his point of view. Mr. Byrne, thank you for being with us. I'd like to just start off with a general question as to your analysis. The Nancy Guthrie kidnap was very interesting.

[Pat Byrne]

So here's elderly woman who's apparently asleep at 2 o' clock in the morning and was taken by some intruder. And so what I started to think about was what's going on in her brain? What sleep stage was she at and how did that affect her emotions and her, her thought process once she woke up? So our human brains do not go from fully asleep to fully awake. Right. There's this process and it's called sleep inertia. This is process of waking up. And that depends partly on how you're woken up and what sleep stage you're at. So at 2am she was probably either in a very deep sleep or in a. In what's called REM sleep, which is rapid eye movement sleep, which is where we dream. And the interesting thing about that is if she was in a deep sleep, then she would be incredibly confused. She wouldn't know where she was, she wouldn't know what time it was, she wouldn't know who she was with. This confusion would go on for at least two to three minutes or longer. Interesting thing is she also has a, a pacemaker. I understand. So she has a heart condition. And elderly people with heart conditions who are woken up suddenly from a deep sleep are very high risk of a heart attack. So always. So that concerned me immediately. And the other aspect too is if she was in REM sleep, she was dreaming. When we dream, our bodies freeze and so you can't move. So if he walked into the room and she was dreaming of density, he could just pick her up. She couldn't even move. And then she would get into some kind of a. She'd get into a panic mode and get, you know, very confused. She wouldn't be able to even say anything or be able to fight back.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, gosh, Pat, so much of what you're saying is so upsetting, but I know you're the expert and these are the facts, but I've got to figure out what, if anything, is probative. What can I deduce, what can I learn, what can I prove from what you're saying? Well, for one thing, you stated, for multiple reasons, that she would be at a high risk of a heart attack. Could you revisit that and explain your thinking?

[Pat Byrne]

Well, the research just shows that elderly people who, even without heart conditions, are at a high risk of heart attacks and being violently and woken up from a deep sleep. So that's what the research, scientific research shows. And so you add on the fact that she has a pacemaker, which means she has a heart condition, makes it worse.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, it's an interesting point about what you just made with me. It was instinctive ever since the twins were born that I, even to this day, and they're 18, I wake them up gently. I don't fly, open the door and yell, wake up or anything like that. And especially with my mom who lives with us, she's 94, it's again, instinctive not to shout someone awake or scare them awake. But you're saying that when someone is abruptly woken in their sleep, especially an elderly person, it increases the risk of a heart attack. And we know she's a heart patient, she's got a pacemaker, among other things.

[Pat Byrne]

Absolutely, yeah. And particularly if she was woken up in a very light sleep when she was just starting to fall asleep, that might be different. But at 2am she's going to be in a deep sleep.

[Nancy Grace]

You mentioned a term called sleep inertia. What's that?

[Pat Byrne]

So that's that foggy brain feeling you get when you wake up in the mornings. Right. And it's that period of time between being fully asleep and fully awake. And so your reaction time is slower, your thinking isn't very clear. And so it takes. It often takes anywhere from 15 minutes to half an hour to get your foggy brain cleared up so you can actually function during the day. And even people like firefighters who may be sleeping in the fire hall and then the alarm goes off and they have to jump up and get in the vehicle and drive. They need to wait a bit to get their brains cleared before they, you know, get in the vehicle to drive. So that's common across for everybody. Sleep inertia is just normal, you know.

[Nancy Grace]

What's another question? Pat Byrne is joining us, everyone. Sleep expert, founder of the Byrne by RNE Fatigue Consulting Group author of Inconvenient Sleep why Teams Win and Lose on Amazon Path for instance, every morning when I wake up at 5am, I jump up and take off, you know, like a bat out of hell, thinking, I've got to feed my mom, I've got to get the children's breakfast ready. I've got to do this a whole, whole set of chores before my day even really starts. And sometimes I'm halfway to the kitchen before I really am awake and I have to stand there thinking, okay, what do I need to do right now? What am I doing first? What is that? Is that the sleep fog you're talking about?

[Pat Byrne]

That's sleep inertia. Yeah, absolutely.

[Dave Mack]

Huh.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, I'm certainly not inert. I sheet out like a bullet. How would this affect what happened to Nancy?

[Pat Byrne]

Okay, let me back up a little bit because when you get up at 5am, the chances are you're probably waking up from a light sleep, not a deep sleep. And so the sleep inertia has, is less pronounced when you wake up from a light sleep than you do from a deep sleep. And so in terms of the Nancy Guthrie situation is that she was most likely in a deep sleep at 2am in the morning. So I'm pretty confident that she was at a fairly high risk for heart attack.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, gosh. The reason, thinking through everything you're saying so carefully, is because I wonder what happened at her doorstep, Pat. Was she stumbling because of sleep inertia and fall? And then we see those what clearly to me are low velocity blood drops. It's not high velocity from a gunshot wound, it's not throwback from a blow. And then you bring back the weapon and you, you get cast off. It's none of those. It looks as if she's standing there out of it and blood drops, and I'm saying from her nose because it looks so much like the blood drops in the Travis Alexander murder. He was murdered by Jodi Arias and he saw himself dying. He went and stood at his mirror in his bathroom and the blood drops from his nose were right there on the counter and they had a very similar blood pattern. So I'm wondering if Nancy was completely out of it because of sleep inertia. Was she in the throes of a heart attack and she stood there dropping blood? How does that query jive with your theory?

[Pat Byrne]

Right, so that probably tells me that obviously she's had some physical injury. Right. Although it could very well be stress as well. Panic and stress, people get nosebleeds so yeah, that all fits with the same thing. She would have had sleep inertia for, you know, full on sleep inertia for probably two or three minutes where it's like she would not know anything that's going on and then her brain would slowly start to clear up. But it would be, you know, 20, 30 minutes before her brain was completely fog free. Right. And so I don't know what the timeline was from when she woke up until she hit the door. When she was at the door.

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[Nancy Grace]

Pat Byrne joining us, consultant, sleep expert and author. Have you considered the perp?

[Pat Byrne]

Yeah, I thought when I saw the video because that's the only one we really get to see is a perpetrator. I know. What's he doing out at, you know, two o' clock in the morning? Wandering around the neighborhood, you know, what's his, we think about his circadian rhythm. What about his own sleep patterns? You know, is this guy a night owl? Like what do we know about this guy? Probably not much, but clearly he feels comfortable walking around middle of the night.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh yeah, exactly. And Pat, question, why would he have picked between 2 and 3am to do this? What is magical about 2 to 3am?

[Pat Byrne]

One of the reasons people commit crimes, I think at 2 or 3 o' clock in the morning is because there aren't any, a lot of other people around. Everybody else's or most other people are sleeping. But also, you know, if he has any knowledge at all, he would know that she was probably sleeping and that he could easily walk around the house and easily go and grab her. Right, because she's probably asleep.

[Nancy Grace]

Yeah. Well, another aspect of this Pat Byrne is that if he has a family, a girlfriend, roommate, did they not notice he was gone way into the night in the early morning hours? Which should be a tip off to anyone that has heard about the 1.2 plus million dollar reward. Joining us tonight, special guest Pat Byrne of the Burn Fatigue Consulting group and author of Inconvenient Sleep why Teams Win and Lose on Amazon. Pat, thank you and please join us again with your insight.

[Pat Byrne]

My pleasure.

[Nancy Guthrie's Family Member]

Hi there everybody. I wanted to come on and just share a few thoughts as we enter into another week of this nightmare. I just want to say first of all, thank you so much for all of the prayers and the love that we have felt, my sister and brother and I, and that our mom has felt because we believe that somehow some way she is feeling these prayers and that God is Lifting her. Even in this moment and in this darkest place, place. We believe our mom is still out there. We need your help. Law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to bring her home, trying to find her. She was taken and we don't know where. And we need your help. So I'm coming on just to ask you, not just for your prayers, but no matter where you are, even if you're far from Tucson, if you see anything, if you hear anything, if there's anything at all that seems strange to you, that you report to law enforcement. We are at an hour of desperation and we need your help.

[Dave Mack]

It boggles my mind that they would return the home back to the family. Right now, nobody in the family lives there. There's no reason to turn the house back over yet. They've still got to find who did this.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Bethany Marshall. Let's just proceed with the belief that Nancy Guthrie is still alive. Okay? Who in their right mind could keep an 84 year old woman imprisoned in a bedroom or an apartment or who knows, a farmhouse, a cellar, a basement. Those are the things that Savannah and her siblings, their nightmares. Where is mom? But what type of mentality, what person, what man could do that?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Somebody who's obsessed with her because they see her as a mark. They see her as somebody that they are going profit off of. And that delights them. That makes her very exciting and captivating to them. And Nancy, a couple of things that you just brought out on this show. The fact that the blood is from the nose, nose droplets potentially, and that it stops on the doorstep, makes me so sad. Because that means somebody stemmed the bleeding by putting their hand over her face. That's the kind of person who. Who's holding Ms. Guthrie. And the other thing, when I see some guy fiddling with a camera at 5am in a neighborhood probably where there are many seniors, it makes me wonder, is there some slim possibility that this was not targeted? That somebody was going from doorstep to doorstep trying to find somebody that they could abduct, kidnap, Something like this. It just opens up more questions to me rather than resolving them.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, you said something, Bethany, and it made me think just in that moment, and I'm sure you can verbalize this better than me, but whoever's got Mrs. Guthrie, she's not even real to them. They're thinking about potentially Savannah and getting her money. And Mrs. Guthrie is just like a pawn, a thing to them for them to get that money.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

However, I'll tell you something, Nancy. She may be a pawn. She may Be a thing. But they've been thinking about her for a long, long time. Reminds me of a patient who came in and could not stop talking about his grandma. Obsessed about his grandma. And I finally realized he was obsessed with her because he was trying to drain her bank account. So there was a lot of talking about it before I finally realized that he was actually using the therapy to commit a crime. Obviously, I stopped seeing him. So there's somebody in some household out there who has a father, a brother, a son, somebody in their lives who has been talking about Nancy Guthrie for a long, long time. That could be a very important behavioral clue in terms of finding the perpetrator.

[Nancy Grace]

What else should people be looking for? Because I believe a case like this could be cracked by a girlfriend, a wife, a sister, a mother, a friend, a neighbor that realizes something is off.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Oh, well, promises of wealth. I'm going to take you on a big trip. I'm going to buy you a new car. Our ship is coming.

[Dave Mack]

In

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

preoccupation with the news, wanting to talk about all the little tidbits that have come out, I don't think that what we should or family members should be watching for is somebody who's actually avoiding talking about this, but somebody who is quite captivated by it. Because, you know, when you have a mark, when you're a perpetrator and you're going to benefit financially from something, you want to talk about it all the time. So I think it's going to be in the conversations people are hearing in their households. Think about if you're sitting around the dinner table with your family, all of a sudden there's one family member that says, oh, let's talk about the Guthrie case. What do you think about older people living alone? Oh, do you think that they're. Do you think the ransom is going to be paid? Do you think Nancy is still alive? Excited conference conversation. Not sad, excited conversation. That's what family members, girlfriends, wives, children, whatever, that's what they need to be watching out for.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, that's really interesting, Dr. Bethany, because every time I leave the studio, I'm asked, do you think Nancy Guthrie is still alive? And similar questions. And every time the person seems genuinely upset, they're not excited. Like, what's the latest? It's not like that at all. They're aghast at what has happened. They all have a mother or a grandmother, many of them that live with them or that are living alone. And this strikes fear in their heart. It's really interesting the way you delineated between being excited and almost giddy about it as opposed to being upset and concerned about it.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Bethany that is absolutely right. And that goes to the third ransom note, right? Is that in this third ransom note, this person who writes it or sends it does not seem to show any concern about Nancy Guthrie. It's kind of all about himself. So also another thing to listen for in conversations around the table or on a date or whatever, is a person talking about how someone could benefit from abducting an older person. Or they're talking about Nancy herself and how sad this is and is she still alive and how is the family doing? If there is empathy in the conversation, that's not a perpetrator. If there's lack of empathy, then that is a possible suspect.

[Pat Byrne]

Crime scene investigation is both an art and a science. I have been critical of the sheriff in this case from day one. This sheriff is not a trained public information officer. He's not familiar with media relations, and he just shouldn't be spouting out and blaming the media for overreacting and so forth.

[Nancy Grace]

Nancy Guthrie still missing. The reward now up to over $1.2 million, straight out to crime stories investigative reporter Dave Mack. Dave, what's the latest?

[Dave Mack]

Nancy as we hit the one month mark in the investigation, for the very first time since any of this began, we saw Savannah Guthrie in public. Savannah Guthrie along with her sister Annie and Annie's husband Tommaso. The three of them appeared at Nancy Guthrie's home. And in the front part of her home on the edge of the property, there is a makeshift memorial. It's got yellow flowers and yellow ribbons, all types of things like that. And Annie and Savannah walked arm in arm with Tommaso and they actually set a note down at this makeshift memorial. Then later in the day, Savannah issued another Instagram and again talking really about her mother and directly to her mother. And I'm wondering what that means, if it means anything. It seems like her notes previously have had a certain meaning to them, addressing certain aspects of the kidnapping. I don't know if these have that same attachment, but Savannah Guthrie seen for the first time since this began. With regard to the notes, we've got the, the family note at the makeshift memorial and Savannah Guthrie and her Instagram note. Based on what you're seeing in these, does it seem like the FBI is involved in writing these notes and is there a direction or are these just straight up family related? You know, I think they're straight up family related at this point. You could tell by some of the verbiage within them. You know, the, the note that was left out at the curb by the family. My understanding is, you know, very personal to, to mom. It's a one on one conversation with

[Pat Byrne]

her and their, you know, they're expressing

[Dave Mack]

their love to her. Whereas when you see, you know, Savannah's Instagram, she starts off right away with thanking all of the neighbors. That tells us, you know, they're still hoping that information will be flowing from the public. And what's interesting is she has compressed that, you know, to her neighborhood. You know, please, if you see or you have seen something, please let us know. And I thought that was a really interesting way to start that Instagram. Savannah Guthrie took to Instagram and posted a clip from the Today show in a segment about her mom and writes, please be the one that brings her home. And she also added, you know, tips can be anonymous and the reward can be paid in cash. I don't think that's been said before, but we all know that tips are, can be anonymous if you want, but the reward can be paid in cash. She coupled that with releasing a shortened version of what should the family release the other day. But Savannah Guthrie reminding everyone that tips are anonymous and the reward can be paid in cash.

[Nancy Grace]

To Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction, author of Deal Breaker. You can see her on Peacock and find her@drbethenny marshall.com Dr. Bethany I know that this is a step forward, but sometimes it must feel for the family that it's one step forward, two steps back.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

You know, Nancy, of course it feels that way to them because what's horrible for the family is the unknown. They have no idea if their mother is dead or alive. They don't know how she's been treated. And Nancy, when we face the unknown, we project into it our worst possible fears. That's how we evolved as a species biologically, is we evolved to be suspicious of the unknown so we could keep ourselves safe. But that's what causes anxiety, right? When we don't know how a situation is going to turn out. So in this case with the mother, they're going to be wondering like, is she cold? Is she being fed? What about her medications? How has she been treated by the perpetrator? Are they kind to her? Are they cruel to her? Has she passed? If so, under what circumstances? Was there somebody there to hold her hand? I mean, this is, this is agonizing for the family. They need to know, they need all these details so that they can sleep, so that they can think so that they can move on with their lives. They need their mother back, whether she's deceased or alive. Nancy. They need to know what's happened to her.

[Nancy Guthrie's Family Member]

On behalf of our family, we want to thank all of you for the prayers for our beloved mom, Nancy. We feel them, and we continue to believe that she feels them, too. Our mom is a kind, faithful, loyal, fiercely loving woman of goodness and light. She's funny, spunky and clever. She has grandchildren that adore her and crowd around her and cover her with kisses. She loves fun and adventure. She is a devoted friend. She is full of kindness and knowledge. Talk to her and you'll see

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

the

[Nancy Guthrie's Family Member]

light is missing from our lives. Nancy is our mother. We are her children. She is our beacon. She holds fast to joy in all of life's circumstances. She chooses joy. Day after day.

[Nancy Grace]

There you see the Guthrie siblings begging for the return of their mother. Nancy Guthrie. The investigation goes on now extending into Mexico. We learn hopefully the Mexican iFamilia database will be used for DNA as well as international databases. Guys, we also are learning about polygraphs that went down into the evening last night. Dave Mack, what about it?

[Dave Mack]

Well, as normally a case develops with everybody involved, now you've got workers all around the house that are being investigated because they should. Anyone with access to the home has been brought in. And we're talking about people, even including the pool workers that came by the other day to clean the pool. Nancy Guthrie doesn't normally have a pool cleaning service. The family called it out to make sure that it was being kept up. But you know what, Nancy? Everybody with access to that home, everybody with access to Nancy Guthrie, probably people at church as well as everywhere else, is being polygraphed to find out everything law enforcement can at this point. And as you mentioned early on, somebody rejecting a polygraph is going to become a huge suspect.

[Nancy Grace]

Dave Mack, did you actually say that the church congregates are being polygraphed or they should be polygraphed?

[Dave Mack]

Should be polygraphed. I misspoke.

[Nancy Grace]

But everybody should be. Nancy, actually, I agree with you. I'm not impugning them or suggesting wrongdoing on their part, but everyone connected to Nancy Guthrie should volunteer for a polygraph.

[Dave Mack]

Done.

[Nancy Grace]

What's the problem? So the reason I'm saying that Kelly Hyman is here's the gold standard mark class. When his daughter Polly went missing, she was abducted in a sleepover party of her and her little friends at her mom's home. Well, they came bamming on his door and he went, fine, take my Fingerprints, do whatever you want. Search my place, search my car, search my office. I'll do a poly right now so you can get past me and find my daughter. So I don't see a problem with everybody connected to Nancy Guthrie getting a polygraph. Now, of course, they are not allowed in a criminal trial unless stipulated ahead of time. We all know that, all the legal eagles know that. But I have used polygraphs as an investigative tool in the past.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

No stone should go unturned, Nancy, in this case. And so the polygraphs should be done as well. And you're right, you bring up a really good point. If there's nothing to hide, if there's, you know, transparency, then it's really important for people to give polygraphs. It's really important for people to give up their, their DNA, which, you know, the family has given their DNA and been ruled out as a suspect. But going back to the DNA, like, it's really important that this kind of stuff is key to the case. Why the DNA is so important because it can help substantiate what, who is there. And DNA can be used in the court of law. Of course. Now the DNA that was found two weeks later could potentially be challenged. But it's really important to look at what is available. What is available in regards to resources that are out there, whether it's using the FBI database or potentially also looking at genetic databases as well, like something like 23 and Me, in which people can opt out of their information and so that that can't be discovered. However, with a court of law, potentially can get a warrant out there to that DNA as well.

[Nancy Guthrie's Family Member]

Our mom was taken in the dark of night from her bed. And every long night has been agony since then.

[Nancy Grace]

Whoever knows about Nancy Guthrie's whereabout that sees that and does not act must have a heart of stone.

[Nancy Guthrie's Family Member]

Please be the light in the dark.

[Nancy Grace]

This is obviously planned out.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

This is not your typical crime.

[Dave Mack]

We haven't had any proof of life. We haven't had any follow up communications about any of the ransom. This could spiral out the of control.

[Pat Byrne]

You can't rule anything out in this case.

[Nancy Grace]

This is the hour of desperation.

[Nancy Guthrie's Family Member]

We believe our mom is still out there. We need your help.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to you, Cheryl McCollum joining us, founder of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, forensics expert and star of a hit podcast, Zone 7, author of a brand new book, Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer, Solving the cold case of the Flint river killer's daughter, Cheryl McCollum. You have analyzed very carefully the Ransoms and the reward. What do you think?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Nancy? It's a short list of the people in your life that would not turn you in for a million dollars. This person knows it. People he went to high school with, neighbors, co workers, people that sit next to him at church. They will turn you in for a million dollars. And that phone has been ringing. And what we saw yesterday with the group surveying the grounds of that crime scene tells me this thing is red hot.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Bethany, $1.2 million plus reward. How do we break the bands of loyalty and get a co conspirator, a family member, a neighbor, a girlfriend, a wife, an ex to come forward and forget their misplaced feelings of loyalty?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Nancy, there is terrible chatter online that the Guthrie family was cheap and therefore they waited four or five weeks to offer a large reward. This is not true. There is a very specific psychology to offering rewards. And if they had offered that reward in the beginning, the perpetrator might have panicked and killed Nancy Guthrie. What the family did at first was they appealed to morality. Savannah Guthrie was saying things like, we believe in the goodness of human nature. Well, that did not work. Nancy. So now with this $1.2 million reward, that does break the bonds of loyalty, because that is big money. That's lifetime money. So a sister, a girlfriend, somebody he once dated, and that person's no longer with him, a neighbor, they're going to start thinking seriously about the clues. Who disappeared in the middle of the night? Who drives a car like that? Do I have a friend who owns that kind of a jacket or a bat or a backpack? It's a little like when the powerball or the lottery keeps climbing and climbing. Somebody who might not have bought a lottery ticket, they're going to stop into their local 711 and buy one. Nancy. Because now they're not internally motivated. We go back to people around the perpetrator. The internal motivation didn't work. The appealing to morality. So now there's extrinsic motivation, which is profit and greed.

[Dave Mack]

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[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

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[Heather Barnhart]

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[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

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[Dave Mack]

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[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

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[Dave Mack]

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[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

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[Heather Barnhart]

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[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Dave Mack]

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[Nancy Grace]

last crime stories with Nancy Grace. Back out to Mary Coleman joining us, News Evening anchor channel 13K O L D. Everyone knows Kold in that region, but now across the nation everyone knows Kold because they came forward with ransom notes. So Mary Coleman in this last plea from Savannah, our friend Savannah Guthrie. Already nearly 2000 tips have come in. Additional tips, right?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

That's correct. Yeah, they haven't stopped. And that was the goal with putting out the $1 million reward is to have more people coming in and hopefully giving something of substance. Unfortunately, a lot of those tips have not been substantial as we've talked About. But the hope is that even just something small can turn this into bringing Nancy home.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us now, Heather Barnhart, digital forensics expert with Cellebrite. You heard all about that during the Alex Murdoch trial, cracked the case wide open and the SANS Institute system, admin, audit network and security. She worked on the Brian Kohberger case. She is the co author of Practical Mobile Forensics, now in its fourth edition. Wow, Heather, thank you for being with us. Heather, I want to talk to you about the so called ransom notes. Heather, is there anything about these ransom notes that would suggest that they were AI generated and what are your thoughts about tracking that?

[Heather Barnhart]

One thing I want investigators to think about in this case are those ransom letters. And I remember reading and hearing on TMZ that one of them seemed to be written by a professional. Why was that one different? If AI was used to help write a ransom note, which is likely. So think about the Google searches that came out that so many IP addresses had searched for Nancy Guthrie. Who would know her name? Who would know where she lived prior to the kidnapping? Can you find keywords in OpenAI that's available to the public that can be searched for anything that was written specifically in those ransom notes? And if the answer is yes, this could tie back to a location and to a person in their home who potentially was behind that keyboard typing those unique words.

[Nancy Grace]

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. Heather, that's pretty amazing. What about if a VPN was being used?

[Heather Barnhart]

If the person wasn't using some type of VPN and private browsing and all the things that mask you from where you're existing when you're typing things, then yes, we can find them. But keep in mind Brian Kohberger tried to do this and we still found him. So there is always going to be a misstep. That digital evidence will lead back to the person. But if they didn't do this and you just open a browser and you start googling things? Absolutely. That can be used the exact same way that OpenAI can be used. And I don't want the public to think, oh no, I use ChatGPT or I use Claude or I use something else. If you log in, your data is more protected than if you just start typing for the Palisades fire. That's how law enforcement found people of interest or suspect of interest was things that they were typing into AI that just existed out there in the world.

[Nancy Grace]

Heather, I want to circle back to the video that has just surfaced about the video of the vehicles flying by at the same Time Nancy Guthrie is kidnapped in her neighborhood. What do you make of that?

[Heather Barnhart]

Video forensic experts will be able to slow down those vehicles to the point of us being able to identify make and model. They should also be able to detect speeds. So if you think you're involved in a crime, you're probably driving pretty quickly. And this is exactly what happened with Bryan Coburger. He tore out of that neighborhood in that vehicle. That car was the second most important identifier to the DNA to getting access to Bryan Kohberger and leading to an arrest. So this could be what investigators need all along to identify who is involved in this crime.

[Nancy Grace]

So, Heather, what about the fact that to the naked eye, to us, the video looks blurry?

[Heather Barnhart]

Oh, my goodness. In my terrorism investigations, we were able to identify things that you can enhance this footage. Think about what AI can do for us in forensics. This is a perfect example of using AI to clean up an image, remove the blur, slow it down, and have vehicle experts say, I know that this is likely, this make and model probably of this year. And then you go into the records and see who in that area owns vehicles that match that description. And it will really pare down the amount of people that need to be questioned at this time.

[Nancy Grace]

If you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll free 800225 5324. That's 800. Call FBI or if you wish to remain anonymous. 520-882-7463. Repeat, 520-882-7463. We remember an American hero. Chief of Police Steve Singer, Lake Lafayette Piede, Missouri, passed away in the line of duty after 16 years on the 4th, leaving behind a grieving fiance, Athena, and five children. Sentenced to life without dad. American hero Chief of police Steve Singer, Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.

[Heather Barnhart]

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[Dave Mack]

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[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

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