SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 38

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode Summary: "Savannah Guthrie Mom Missing: Day 38"

Date: March 10, 2026
Host: Nancy Grace

Overview

This episode zeroes in on the ongoing search for Nancy Guthrie—the mother of NBC anchor Savannah Guthrie—now missing for 38 days. Nancy Grace convenes a panel of law enforcement veterans, crime scene experts, and investigative reporters to dissect recent developments in the case: a reported sighting “south of the border,” emerging criticisms and lawsuits against Sheriff Nanos, forensic processing of Annie Guthrie’s car, tracking potential digital evidence, and the status of DNA findings within the Guthrie home.

Nancy Grace’s signature prosecutorial rigor drives the conversation, demanding clarity and action amid swirling rumors, online speculation, and pressure from national media coverage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Alleged Sighting of Nancy Guthrie in Mexico

• Details of the Tip

  • An email tip, received by TMZ, claims Nancy Guthrie was seen in Mexico “south of the border.”
  • The tip demanded a ransom of one bitcoin (~$69,954), substantially less than the $1.2M reward.

• Skepticism and Law Enforcement Protocols

  • Brian Fitzgibbons (Director of Operations, USPA Nationwide Security):
    “Genuine tips at this stage of an investigation are generally asking for that full reward...one bitcoin raises an immediate red flag.” [07:24]
    • Law enforcement’s first step: trace the tip's digital source—IP, email, etc.
  • Nancy Grace:
    “Who do you think the kidnapper hangs around with? Nuns and priests and virgins? No. Somebody just like him.” [08:29]
    • Despite skepticism, investigators must follow up on all leads.
  • Dave Mack (Investigative Reporter):
    “No proof of life. It was just something added to the email…an effort to get money.” [04:32]

• Defining "South of the Border"

  • Kurt Dab (Former Pima County Homicide Detective):
    “To me, it would be directly south, somewhere in Sonora…Rocky Point, AKA Puerto Pinasco, maybe even...Tijuana.” [13:43]
  • FBI now leads a multi-agency task force cooperating with local detectives.

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2. Lawsuit and Reality Show: Is Sheriff Nanos Distracted?

• $1 Million Lawsuit
  • Former inmate alleges negligent COVID protocols in the jail under Nanos’ watch.
  • Nancy Grace:
    “Even if it is meritless, you still have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars…He’s got that hanging over his head.” [17:22]
• Media Distraction
  • Fusion of high-profile investigation and Nanos’ participation in the reality show Desert Law (A&E) raises questions on focus.
  • Dave Mack:
    “Coverage of Nancy Guthrie’s case going nationwide, internationally is actually causing a bump in the ratings for the show.” [18:21]

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3. Annie Guthrie’s Car: Investigation, Rumors, and Forensic Process

• Rumors and Online Speculation
  • Annie Guthrie (Savannah Guthrie’s sister) and her husband have faced allegations due to confusion around her car.
  • Nancy Grace:
    “Many people claiming she’s actually the porch guy…A lot of unfounded claims.” [18:28]
• Forensic Actions Taken
  • Dave Mack:
    “Annie Guthrie’s car was taken by the sheriff’s department and has been searched. …It is at the auto mechanic right now...being put back together.” [19:13]
  • Car was “torn down” for exhaustive evidence search: DNA, trace fibers, soil, tire impressions.
    • Kurt Dab:
      “In seven years in homicide…we never took something and then fixed it and gave it back to people…That’s a little weird.” [22:30]
  • Scott Eicher (Digital Forensics Expert):
    “It is meticulous. …They’re looking for everything: DNA, hair, fibers, everything.” [27:52]
  • Brian Fitzgibbons:
    “Pima County has been under a lot of pressure...they’re not going to give up this vehicle until they’re 100% sure they’re done with it.” [30:19]

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4. The Hearing Aid: Can It Be Tracked?

• Potential for Digital Location
  • Guthrie is speculated to have worn Bluetooth-enabled hearing aids—with a spare pair left behind.
  • Scott Eicher:
    “It’s Bluetooth-connected…You can get a signal with some special antennas, but it’s very short range and will not last very long…Surprisingly, if those hearing aids would still be working.” [31:56]
  • Modern hearing aids may provide historical location data if paired with a smartphone and the battery was active.
    • Nancy Grace:
      “Many modern hearing aids can be tracked using your smartphone app plus Bluetooth…They can provide GPS location data even when they are out of range, provided the app was paired.” [33:00]
    • Scott Eicher:
      “Not all hearing aids have GPS…Most of them are just Bluetooth.” [35:53]
    • Nancy Grace:
      “You can find your lost suitcase all around the world. So if that’s Bluetooth, how does that work?” [36:41]
    • Scott Eicher:
      “Bluetooth is short range…but there’s a lot of Bluetooth capture devices [in places like airports].” [36:56]

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5. DNA, Forensic Evidence, and Lab Delays

• Stranger DNA Found Inside the Guthrie Residence
  • Not a family member or nanny; source remains unidentified.
  • Tammy Ballard (Crime Scene Consultant & DNA Expert):
    “The laboratory is no doubt still evaluating additional samples. …There’s a lot of complexity involved to make sure that you’re really identifying a potential perpetrator.” [41:52]
• Exclusion of a Found Glove
  • A glove found 2.5 miles from the home was quickly excluded—DNA linked to a restaurant worker.
  • Ballard:
    “They definitely have more information that they’re not providing to the public…that they can make those statements and now exclude that individual.” [43:31]
• Genetic Genealogy and Data Bank Complexities
  • If genetic genealogy is underway, it signals no CODIS (national database) hit.
  • The Arizona State Database and local databases allow lower-stringency DNA profiles, quickening some searches.
    • Ballard:
      “State database has less individuals, allows for more ambiguity…so there’s more potential for a hit in those state databases.” [45:13]
    • On timing:
      "If genealogy is going on, that means that there are some good samples that were put forward … but it can take a long time.” [47:16]

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6. Criticism of Law Enforcement and Resource Limits

• Delay Bringing in the FBI
  • Kurt Dab:
    “The expertise with kidnapping obviously lies with the FBI. I think that’s one of the missteps that Sheriff Nanos made and not contacting them originally...” [49:56]
• Lack of Trained Personnel
  • Only 101 of 196 patrol deputies are fully off probation/trained in Pima County.
  • Dab:
    “It leaves you with a lot of inexperienced initial responders to a call like this…that’s where the mistakes occurred early on.” [50:53]
  • Despite this, he and Nancy Grace defend the sincere efforts of patrol officers:
    “I don’t want their efforts to be sullied.” [51:41]

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7. Digital Forensics – The Ongoing Search

• Scott Eicher:
  • Investigators continue reviewing digital evidence: phone data, car GPS, video, Bluetooth trackers.
  • “Every time they get some new lead, they’re going to get some new digital data…that’s tough work trying to identify the cars that are passing by so fast at night.” [53:26]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nancy Grace:

  • “She would not wrap arm around a guy that she suspected in her mother’s kidnap.” [03:39]
  • “I guarantee you the FBI has been 3 inches up all of these children’s tailpipes.” [31:03]
  • “If you miss something—technical, legal term—you’re screwed.” [29:46]

• Brian Fitzgibbons:

  • “There’s a 1.2 plus million dollar reward out there. Genuine tips at this stage…are generally asking for that full reward.” [07:24]

• Dave Mack:

  • “It was not a proof of life. It was merely something added to the email and it was sent in an effort to get money.” [04:32]

• Kurt Dab:

  • “…The department is this depleted. And what it leaves you is a lot of inexperienced initial responders to a call like this…that’s where the mistakes…occurred early on.” [50:53]

• Tammy Ballard:

  • “There’s a lot of complexity involved to make sure that you’re really identifying a potential perpetrator…” [41:52]
  • “If genealogy is going on, it’s happening on a very big team approach.” [47:16]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Alleged Sighting in Mexico & Ransom Email: 04:32 – 13:00
• Law Enforcement Criticisms; Nanos Lawsuit & Reality Show: 15:48 – 18:29
• Annie Guthrie’s Car – Evidence Process & Rumors: 18:28 – 22:30
• Car Forensics Detailing: 26:53 – 30:51
• Family Members as Suspects Online: 30:51 – 31:03
• Hearing Aid Digital Evidence: 31:56 – 36:56, 40:01 – 40:27
• DNA, Biology, and Genealogy Discussions: 41:52 – 49:40
• Dept Missteps, Resource Issues: 49:56 – 52:13
• Digital Data, Phone & Vehicle Forensics: 53:12 – 54:13

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Conclusion

Nancy Grace’s episode dissects every hiccup, rumor, and forensic process in the hunt for Nancy Guthrie. It exposes both the strengths and failings of law enforcement—from overburdened, inexperienced local agencies to methodological forensic diligence and the promise (and pitfalls) of technology. The panel leaves listeners with a sense that while the maze is complex and beset by distraction, every clue and digital trail is being doggedly pursued.

Reward tip lines:

• 1-800-CALL-FBI (800-225-5324)
• 520-882-7463 (anonymous)

Quote from Nancy Grace:
“A million dollar lawsuit, a reality show, a tip claiming that Nancy Guthrie has been cited ‘south of the border.’ It’s all swirling in the search for Nancy Guthrie.” [31:03]

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Transcript

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace Savannah Guthrie's mother Nancy Guthrie missing day 38 this as we learn an alleged sighting has been reported and we find out the latest on Annie Guthrie's car online. Annie Guthrie, Savannah's sister and Nancy Guthrie's daughter has been subjected to a lot of torment and accusations about where is her car. Well, tonight maybe we have an answer. This as Nanos, Sheriff Nanos is hit with a one million dollar lawsuit. Between that and his reality show, is he a little too distracted to find Nancy Guthrie? And can her hearing aids be tracked? Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. She would not wrap arm around a guy that she suspected in her mother's kidnap. This brother in law would not even be living with the family.

[Panel Member (possibly a family member or commentator)]

He would be somewhere else.

[Nancy Grace]

That family loves him. I think it is tragic that the family has had yet another assault. Tonight we are learning about an alleged sighting of Nancy Guthrie south of the border. Is it real? It cannot be discounted. Joining me an all star panel. But first straight out to Dave, Matt crime stories investig reporter Dave Mack.

[Dave Mack]

What do you know, Nancy? Remember when we got the ransom notes that were sent to tmz? There was the fourth ransom note they gave us certain from TMZ and law enforcement. Certain information was given to the public, but not all of it. Now we're finding out that in the fourth missive sent to TMZ there was an actual claim by the person sending the email that they saw Nancy Guthrie south of the border in Mexico with her alleged kidnappers. This was not a proof of life. It was merely something added to the email and it was sent in an effort to get money. Now TMZ offered to be the go between the mediator between this person and law enforcement and nothing else came from it. But this person claims that he or she saw Nancy Guthrie in Mexico.

[Nancy Grace]

So many questions about the alleged sighting. And of course in every case we when someone goes missing, there are sightings. Sometimes they're true. I recall distinctly a case I had been working and reporting on. It was the case of Dylan and Shasta Groni, they were kidnapped from their home there in Coeur d'. Alene. Their entire family wiped out and killed because some perv was driving along. And from the highway, Dave Mack, remember this from the highway, he sees them on an above, at an above ground pool that they had. And I guess their backyard pulls over. Who would have thunk it? Wait, Lies in wait, wipes out the whole family and takes Shasta and little brother Dylan, who he kills after torturing in front of the little girl. And then a sighting occurs like a quick trip or a convenience store. And it's her. She had seen Shasta and Dylan on our show and called it in and saved Shasta's life. So that's just a true life experience. And there have been many, many others. This sighting. Let's go out to the panel, straight out to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us. Brian is a director operations, uspa Nationwide Security. Why am I going to him? Because he leads a team of investigators that are dedicated to finding missing people, including extractions in Mexico, around the world. He is a former marine and an Iraqi War vet. Okay, we cannot discount this. Obviously, Nanos can't find her in the Catalina Foothills area. Could this be true? What do you do when you get a tip like this? For those of you just joining us, a tip has come in, spotting Nancy Guthrie south of the border. Okay, tell me, Brian, what do you do?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

The first thing that's going to happen here, Nancy, is they're going to try to trace to find the source of this tip. Whether it came in via email or a cell phone or submitted on a website form, they're going to do everything that they can to find the source and the person that submitted this tip. Now, I will point out one thing. This tip demanded one bitcoin, which to me raises an immediate red flag. It was similar to previously reported information asking for one bitcoin. There's a 1.2 plus million dollar reward out there. Genuine tips at this stage of an investigation are generally asking for that full reward. They're not shortening it down to 50, 60 thousand dollars versus 1.2 million. So law enforcement still will track down the source of this. They'll treat it very seriously, of course. But you know, I have to say there's a major red flag here in light of that.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, yeah, there's a red flag put up. Put up. Fitzgibbons. Of course there's a red flag. Who do you think the kidnapper hangs around with? Nuns and priests and virgins? No. Somebody just like Him. So who would have seen Nancy? Likely a cohort, a compatriot of the kidnapper. That said, as you know, Brian, when you get information, you have to take it wherever you get it. I mean, I put people on the stand that I had to explain away an opening statement because of their rap sheet, because of who they are, because of what they did. Just it could be any number of things wrong with the informant. But I've got a problem with going to a news outlet as opposed to police. But, you know, unlike you and I, some people don't like police. Believe it or not. As of right now, One Bitcoin is $69,954. $69,954. That ain't shabby. But back to my original question, at the risk of having to repeat myself, Fisgibbons, what do you do when you get a tip? Right? You do something, you don't ignore it. You have to follow through with it. And what is step number one? Hey, you know what? I have a J.D. i have an LLM, but I don't know how to pull teeth. But, Jackie, if you could get me a set of pliers, maybe I can right now. What's your first course of action? Explain it.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah. The immediate course of action is going to be a technological search to try to find the source of this tip, to identify the individual, be it an IP address, email, however they're going to go through that. However that tip came in. We don't know the specifics of the method in which it was received, but that's going to be the first.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, hold on. Maybe we do. Maybe we do. And if that will help us in our discussion. Discussion, Let me go straight to Dave Mack. We know it was sent to TMZ in email form, correct? What else do we know about it? Was it paired with any other information? Just tell me everything you know.

[Dave Mack]

This is one of those things where this is information out to us of the content of the emails that TMZ was able to retrieve was sent. We know that it was part and parcel of the demand for, you know, the ransom money. Remember the Bitcoin, the $6 million? This is the last email TMZ got from the alleged. Well, not the kidnapper. This is a sidebar to the kidnapper. This is somebody who claims to know who the kidnapper is and is willing to out that kidnapper, but has yet to do so. This is that guy or that woman claiming that somehow thinking by saying, yeah, I saw Nancy Guthrie in Mexico is enough proof of Life for them, TMZ or law enforcement to cough up a bitcoin. That's what we know is that there's more information in these notes that have been received by television and TMZ that we don't know yet. There's plenty more. You know, they paraphrased everything.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, specifically it states, quote, I know what I saw 5 days ago south of the border and I was told to shut up. So I know who he is. And that was definitely Nancy with them. Now again, TMZ offered to act as an intermediary. I don't know how the FBI would feel about that. Straight out to the rest of our all star panel joining us. Hold on. Is there anything else Dave Mack, you need to tell me before the panel weighs in? Anything else about the missive? Did the. Was the location narrowed in any way other than just south of the border? And what would south of the border be? But do we know anything else about the missive?

[Dave Mack]

No, what we know is that south of the border, it's a. It's an assumption that it's just over the border, which is not a good assumption, Nancy. Somebody crosses the border, they can take off in any direction they want to go. This is merely a vague representation of what this individual claims they saw in an attempt to get some money. That's all it is. And again, there's more to the email that we don't know. We don't know all of the information. This is just another sentence in that email received by dmz.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. From looking at the map to me, south of. If you're in Arizona, directly south of the border, of course, is Mexico, specifically Sonora to the south, Baja California to the southwest. That's what I am assuming they're referring to. There's also Rocky Point. That's Puerto Pinasco. And. And just looking along the border to see what else they could possibly be referring to. Straight out to Kurt Dab joining us, former detective there in Pima county with the homicide division. Kurt, thank you for being with us. What do you make? What would south of the border be from Pima County? What is considered south of the border?

[Kurt Dab]

To me, it would be directly south, somewhere in Sonora, whether it's Rocky Point, AKA Puerto Pinasco, maybe even, you know, as far southwest as Tijuana. I've investigated a number of missing individuals that ended up south of the border. We would usually get calls from the federal police saying, hey, we located one of your, you know, missing individuals. Usually, usually they were elderly, they have problems with dementia. So I would Hope that the investigators would reach out to the Mexican authorities to help them, you know, track down

[Nancy Grace]

this sighting, if they haven't already. Would the feds be doing that, Kurt Dab, or would Nano's department be doing it?

[Kurt Dab]

Well, from my understanding right now is they have a task force working with homicide. Detectives from the sheriff's department are working in conjunction with the FBI at the FBI building. So I'm assuming it would be that task force, which I think is headed by the FBI now.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us, Scott Eicher, digital forensics expert, founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team. He was also with Norfolk, Virginia PD for 12 years. Also he is at Precision Cellular Analysis. Scott, thank you for being with us. What do you make of the alleged sighting?

[Scott Eicher]

Well, sightings are always great. As you mentioned before, Sometimes they lead into great information and solving a case, but a lot of times they're red herrings. So even though we got to spend a lot of time doing those, it's worth the time to track down each one of those sightings just to try to vet them out. When we did, when I was dealing with Dylan Redwine down in Colorado, missing boy, it was killed by his father, we had a lot of sightings of him, the boy Dylan, even, you know, months, years after he went missing, but we had to track him down.

[Nancy Grace]

Mm. Guys, speaking of whether Nanos was is covering alleged sightings or is it the feds? Is Nanos too distracted to find? Nancy Guthrie, to you. Dave Mack, crime stories investigative reporter. What can you tell me about a brand new whopper lawsuit against Nanos? A million dollar lawsuit.

[Dave Mack]

Shocking numbers. A million dollar lawsuit coming from a former inmate at the Pima County Jail. In this lawsuit, the Pima county jail inmate claims that during COVID 19, he was in the custody and his jail cell grouping was exposed to a deputy who was working between one jail cell that had COVID positive inmates. And this same sheriff's deputy was working between the COVID positive and those who were not COVID positive in a separate cell. And that this same jailer was going between the two groups, basically spreading Covid all over the place. Because this individual accuses the jailer of not wearing gloves, not cleaning his hands, not cleaning himself after going into the cell with COVID positive inmates and then coming back into a cell that had inmates who had not tested positive for Covid. That's the million dollar lawsuit claiming they were put in physical jeopardy with their lives on the line based on the decisions made by the I wonder if

[Nancy Grace]

any of them actually got Covid because if none of them got Covid, they're barking up the wrong tree. But between a million dollar lawsuit, which even if it is meritless, you still have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars. You got to hire a lawyer, you got to give responses. You may have to give a deposition. He's got that hanging over his head. And of course, there's this.

[Kurt Dab]

A slow night could turn fast very quickly.

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911 emergency.

[Nancy Grace]

The whole world going to this right now.

[Panel Member (possibly a family member or commentator)]

Put your pants off. Is lawless out here.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Desert law premieres Wednesday, January 7th at 10 on a crime and investigation on A and E. Watch next day on

[Nancy Grace]

the A and E app. That is from our friends at A and E and their reality show, desert law. Is it airing now?

[Dave Mack]

Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

In the midst of Nancy Guthrie's the search for Nancy Guthrie, is it airing?

[Dave Mack]

Oh, yeah. And the coverage of Nancy Guthrie's case going nationwide, internationally is actually causing a bump in the ratings for the show.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, all right, that's enough TV news. I want to talk about Annie Guthrie's car. She has been the subject online and beyond of a lot of scrutiny. This is Savannah Guthrie's sister. Many people claiming she's actually the porch guy, that her husband is responsible. A lot of unfounded claims. This is from our friends at Fox News. And many of those claims are based in the fact that Annie Guthrie's car was confiscated and to many, many believe the car is still in impound. Okay, what do you know, Dave Mack?

[Dave Mack]

Nancy, Annie Guthrie's car was taken by the sheriff's department and has been searched. And has been searched. And has been searched. The vehicle is not in the impound lot right now. You know, last week the sheriff's department said that the vehicle was being released back to Andy. It's not the case. The vehicle is at the auto mechanic right now where it is still in the custody of the Pima county sheriff's department, not the Guthrie's and is being worked on by this auto mechanic. Now, Nancy, when. When a search warrants conducted on a vehicle, a lot of things.

[Nancy Grace]

Isn't it true when you say the car is being worked on, would a more accurate description be that it's being put back together?

[Dave Mack]

Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

After an exhaustive search.

[Dave Mack]

Yes, that is.

[Nancy Grace]

Why is it being put back together, DAVE Mack?

[Dave Mack]

Because it was taken apart while the sheriff's department and investigators were looking for evidence. And it was.

[Nancy Grace]

But they're putting it back together in

[Dave Mack]

order to return it to the Guthrie's. That's.

[Nancy Grace]

I need the pliers again first. Fitzgibbons now him. So are you telling me, Dave Mack, that your source says the car is being returned to Annie Guthrie and it's been languishing in repair to put it back together in order to give it back to Annie, Is that correct? You know what this is called? This is having to cross examine your own witness, typically after you have them declared hostile on the stand. I don't like doing that, but go ahead.

[Dave Mack]

Well, yes, the Pima County Sheriff's Department has said they are going to return the vehicle to the Guthrie's, but that isn't being done yet, Nancy. They are still in custody of the vehicle and it is at an auto mechanic shop allegedly being put back together. But if you go back and look at the statement made by Pima county, they never said when the vehicle would be returned to the Guthrie's, only that it would be at some point in time in the future. The vehicle has not been returned. It has been at the auto shop being put back together.

[Nancy Grace]

To Kurt Dab, joining us, former detective, Pima county in the homicide division. And it's not easy to get to homicide, by the way. First you start as a cadet, then you're a beat cop, then you ultimately hopefully get assigned somewhere, maybe in child support, recovery, maybe hunting down fugitives. You have to work up for a long time to get into homicide. Okay, Dab, when a vehicle is confiscated, that is sop, standard operating procedure. We know Annie Guthrie had her mom, Nancy Guthrie, in the car that evening at some point, we've been told. So they probably wanted to look, find out if there was blood in the car, find out if there was anything unusual in the car. You would expect to find her DNA in the car because we know she had been sitting in the car like there's my DNA in our beat up minivan. But what were they looking for? How long is the vehicle normally kept and what's the timetable for returning the vehicle? KURT dabb,

[Kurt Dab]

well, when you're collecting evidence in a case such as this, you're going to keep that evidence until the case is completed. And then you'll be able to determine what evidence gets returned, you know, to suspects, witnesses or other individuals that were interviewed, the things that they could have been searching for. Obviously they were searching for DNA, whether it be blood or touch DNA. They're also probably going to download the computer system on that vehicle. It's just surprising to me, in the seven years that I spent in homicide, we never took something and then fixed it and gave it back to the people that we took it from. So that's a little weird for me. I would think that if they still held the car in custody or in impound that there's useful information there and they're not going to release it back. So it's a little perplexing to me. As far as who's getting the vehicle fixed, who ordered it to be fixed before returning it to the family, which still hasn't been done.

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[Radhi Deblokia]

This is Radhi Deblokia from a really Good cry. I absolutely love getting outside, whether it's a quick walk or a mindful few steps between meetings or even a longer run to just clear my head. But the one thing that can really ruin that for me is shoes that just don't feel right. That's why I started wearing Altra Running with the Altra Fit. Every step feels comfortable, balanced, and strong, like my feet can finally move freely. What really stood out to me was the roomy toe box. My toes actually now have room to spread out, which makes movement feel more natural and comfortable. And when your feet aren't cramped, you feel more balanced. Like every step has a strong, stable foundation. I've noticed that with extra space, my foot muscles get to work building strength so I can actually move with more confidence. Altra fits and moves with you, no matter your pace or your goals. Beginner or marathon runner. They've really become my go to for any kind of running or training. And I always feel like my feet can do exactly what they're meant to to do. Feel the difference by visiting altarrunning.com and use my code. Cry 10 for 10% off. That's altra a l t r a running.com experience ultra. And stay out there.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Scott Eicher joining us, former FBI, now at Precision Cellular Analysis. They have to break down the car, by the way. Thanks. Fox News for this video. They have to break down the car, basically take it apart, take out the seats, look under the seats. They have to wet. They have to vac the carpet, vac the upholster. I'm talking about M vac for DNA, looking for DNA that is invisible to the naked eye. They're looking for fibers. They're looking for hair. They're looking for minuscule amounts of blood or some other sort of DNA. They may even be looking for soil. Soil where Nancy may have been sitting. We don't know what they were looking for, but I do know the car has to be totally broken down. Explain about breaking down a car and performing that type of search. It's meticulous.

[Scott Eicher]

It is meticulous. And you have to think about, all right, what type of case are we looking at? Are we looking at a, you know, a car that's been, that has compartments that you're, you know, hiding drugs in it? Well, that's. You've seen that all the time, is they tear up that car pretty bad. I mean, they're ripping out the dashboard. They're ripping out everything. In this case, I wouldn't think they're doing that much damage to the car. They might get under some of the door panels, break some of those little plastic things when they're taking off the door panels to get. Make sure they get everything, the DNA, the hair, the fibers, everything. But it shouldn't be that much damage to this type of, of car if all we have is that she was later brought home in that car before she went missing. So it gives me a red flag that they've kept this car so long.

[Nancy Grace]

It does not give me a red flag because look how long the DNA analysis is taking when you take down, when you take apart a car like that. For all I know, they were using the tires to make casts. If you look at some of the original photos, I know the driveway is gravel, partially gravel, but a couple of aerial views did show tracks right after the kidnapping. This is from our friends at 12 News. For all I know, they were making casts of those tracks, comparing them to the vehicle. Just a lot goes into that. And isn't it true, Brian Fitzgibbons joining us, that in order to make casts, think of your arm being put in a cast, right? How long that takes. And it has to solidify. That's very much like making a cast of a tire. You have to surround it. Just pretend papier mache. That's an easy way to describe it. Or clay. Then you have to remove it, let it dry, and then start comparing it. If they decide there's anything to it, if there is a lead, if it matches, for instance, or possibly matches, you have to keep the vehicle. You can't give it back because it is now going to be state's evidence. So a lot goes in to analyzing a vehicle in a situation like this because if you miss something, technical, legal term, you're screwed.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, as you're mentioning these things all take time and may require specialized teams to come in and actually assess and analyze the evidence that's in or potential evidence that's inside that vehicle. And I'll add one thing. Pima county has been under a lot of pressure for having returned to the, the, the residence a number of times. So I think in this case they were learning from that criticism that they're not going to give up this vehicle until they're 100% sure they're done with it.

[Panel Member (possibly a family member or commentator)]

Family always has to be ruled out. The inside knows the most about Nancy. Why would she have to go and grab some weeds from the garden and cover it?

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It makes absolutely no sense.

[Nancy Grace]

I guarantee you the FBI has been 3 inches up all of these children's tailpipes. A million dollar lawsuit, a reality show, a tip claiming that Nancy Guthrie has been cited. Quote, south of the border. It's all swirling in the search for Nancy Guthrie. Straight out to Scott Eicher, founding member of the cellular analysis survey team. Here's a new one. Let me throw this at you. Her hearing aids absolutely can be tracked. Now, we know one pair of hearing aids were left behind, but many believe that was her spare pair, that she was wearing hearing aids when she left the home. Do we know that? No. But is there reason to believe that? Yes. If so, can they be tracked? And how?

[Scott Eicher]

Nancy, this is just like her pacemaker that we were dealing with earlier on. It's Bluetooth connected. Connected or connectability. So it can connect to your phone or to your watch to kind of help you locate your hearing aids within your house or in your car, something like that. But this is not long distance. Remember, it's like, you know, 30 to 60ft. You can get a Bluetooth signal with some special antennas. You might get further than that as we've seen them when they were searching for the pacemaker signal, which was also Bluetooth. But we have to run into the problem, as do the hearing aids still have power. You know, we know the pacemaker lasts for years, but hearing aids, you need to charge them quite often. So if they are searching for her hearing aids, they're using the Bluetooth scanner like they were doing for the pacemaker. But again, it's very short range and will not last very long. We're into the, what, sixth week now, surprisingly, if those hearing aids would still be working.

[Nancy Grace]

But you can do historical tracking. Many, many modern hearing aids can be tracked using your smartphone app plus Bluetooth technology. It can display the last known location on a map, much like Find my iPhone, Find my iPad. The apps also show signal strength to help you find the hearing aids within range. And they can provide GPS location data even when they are out of range. Out of range of Bluetooth providing the app was paired. How does it work? You use basically a find my hearing aid feature, like find my iPhone. When it's close, apps show the proximity bars or the signal strength. They show last known location. They show if the hearing aid is disconnected or out of range. Like when you find your iPhone, it shows you the amount of battery left. There are limitations because the hearing aid has to be paired with your phone. The app's got to be running. So that's a lot to take in. By the way, that video we were showing you is from our friends at Fox News at this juncture, straight out to you, Brian Fitzgibbons. I mean, we've got to try everything.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, these Bluetooth signals we have, we've talked extensively about the ability to potentially track the pacemaker and now, you know, the hearing aids, it's certainly possible, right? What is the historical data? What was the last known location? Was there a distance from Nancy's phone that could help track this source? So, you know, it's certainly on the table of something that needs to be looked at.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, when you say historical data, guys, this is from our friends that blue fly on YouTube. When we keep referring to historical tracking, that means. Let's see. How can I explain this in a way like I would tell a jury, for instance, when you have your child or Teen on Life360, you can look and see not just where they are at this moment, but you can see where they've been. A little map will show they went here, they went to school, they went to the grocery store, they went and got frozen yogurt, and then they came home. You can see that there's a line. John, the historical data, what happened in recent history, that's what that means. So when you hear experts talking about historical data, that's all that means. So let me understand this, Scott. Iker. Some hearing aids have apps like Find My iPhone, you know, like a tile you. You put on your suitcase or whatever you're trying to keep up with your car keys. Is that how it works?

[Scott Eicher]

It is. It's similar to that. But you got to understand different devices have different capabilities. Not all hearing aids have gps. Most of them are just Bluetooth. And can you get some historical data from Bluetooth devices? Sometimes you can. Depends on if it's a. It's related to Google, because Google does connect or track devices via Bluetooth and cellular and WI Fi.

[Nancy Grace]

Scott, though there are hearing aids that are paired with your phone.

[Scott Eicher]

That's correct.

[Nancy Grace]

If it is paired with your phone, wouldn't it work like Find my iPhone?

[Scott Eicher]

It will. But you know those little tiles that you put in your or the air tags, they're not gps, they're Bluetooth. So it's reading all the Bluetooth.

[Nancy Grace]

But wait a minute, wait a minute. Scott, you can find your lost suitcase all around the world. So if that's Bluetooth, how does that work? Because you're suggesting that Bluetooth is not as strong as cellular and therefore we couldn't find her hearing aids if in fact she was wearing them.

[Scott Eicher]

Bluetooth is short range, we understand that, but there's a lot in the airports. There's a lot of Bluetooth capture devices there. That's why they have them there to track those type of airtags so we can see those air tags when they're at home and at an airport. But if they're out in the middle of a field, those airtags, you wouldn't be able to find them because they're not giving out. There's no collection device, a Bluetooth receiver to connect that device.

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[Jacob Goldstein]

7 Jacob this is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at o d o o.com that's o d o o.com kids pets life.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

Your sofa sees it all. But with a washable sofa, stains don't stand a chance. All of our sofa collections come with fully machine washable covers and cushions, making cleanup effortless. Liquid and stain resistant fabrics provide extra protection against everyday messes. Plus, with modular designs, you can rearrange your sofa however you like. Perfect for growing families and changing spaces. Starting at just $699, it's time to upgrade to a stress free mess proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Radhi Deblokia]

This is Radhi Deblokia from a really Good Cry. I absolutely love being outdoors, even if it's just stepping outside for a bit of fresh air between meals or taking a mindful walk to clear my head. But the one thing that can really ruin that is when my feet feel cramped in my shoes. So I switch to ultra running and honestly, it makes such a difference. What I Love Most is their signature Altra Fit, Comfort, balance, strength. They have this roomy toe box that lets my toes actually spread and move naturally. So I really appreciate that and I feel more grounded and balanced with every single step. It's like my feet can finally do their job using all those little muscles that make me feel stronger the more I move. Whether you are a marathon runner, beginner or advanced, or just getting outside to train, Altras have become my go to for running and moving mindfully. They fit so well, they're so comfortable and they just move with you. Shop now at ultrarunning.com and use my code CRY10 for 10% off. That's a L T R a running.com experience Altra and stay out there.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Scott Eichor if the hearing aids are still functioning and even if the battery is dead by now, we would still be able to get the historical data where it has been before it went dead. You're telling me that would exist if her hearing aids were near any form of Bluetooth connection?

[Scott Eicher]

That's correct.

[Nancy Grace]

Ha. A glimmer of hope. They're comparing that shot of the porch guy to Annie and saying that it's really Annie based on the whites of the eyes of the perp.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

That is not Annie walking up onto that porch.

[Panel Member (possibly a family member or commentator)]

And also, wouldn't she know that camera existed?

[Nancy Grace]

An alleged sighting, a million dollar lawsuit against Sheriff Nanos. The reality show on the back burner is Nanos simply too distracted to find Nancy Guthrie? How badly did the delay in bringing in the Feds hurt the search for the 84 year old grandmother and mother? Joining me right now to answer a lot of questions is Tammy Ballard, DNA crime scene consultant, crime scene investigation and reconstruction expert, former DNA criminalist for the San Diego Police Department Crime Lab. Tammy Ballard, thank you for being with us. I have an issue. Nanos keeps spouting off about DNA. We know that there is stranger DNA inside Nancy Guthrie's home found in inside her home. Not a family member, not Nancy Guthrie, not anyone that can be eliminated, such as the granny nannies. What's the holdup? What are they doing at the lab?

[Panel Member (possibly a family member or commentator)]

So the laboratory is no doubt still evaluating additional samples. I would assume they're going to evaluate that integrity of the first result and whether or not they have mixtures, whether or not they have data that they can use to make comparisons to other individuals. If they do evaluate that data and they realize that, okay, this could provide good comparison data, then they're going to have to eliminate all of the people that they have compared to before those known samples from family members, law enforcement that may have touched particular items. So there's a lot of complexity involved to make sure that you're really identifying a potential perpetrator and hopefully they have enough of that data from the original items they worked. But this, the second tier approach, is a very common one across laboratories. If you don't get those great results on the front end, then you go back and you dig deeper, see what more items can be analyzed and go from there.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm very curious, Tammy Bell, and I'm going to circle back on that topic regarding genetic genealogy, family tree DNA matches, such as in the Golden State killer Joseph Diangelo case. But give me an explanation, if you can, about that glove that was found about 2.5 miles away from Nancy Guthrie's home. It was almost immediate that nanos came out and said, yeah, it's not connected. It belongs to a restaurant employee nearby. How did they get that back so quickly?

[Panel Member (possibly a family member or commentator)]

My guess would be that they, they either received information from somebody that said, hey, this could be your person. They obviously have some information that hasn't been provided to the public such that they can do that direct comparison to that individual and now say, okay, this is the DNA from this individual and he's included or excluded from the investigation. So they, they definitely have more information that they're not providing to the public such that, you know, they can make those statements and now exclude that individual.

[Nancy Grace]

Which leads me back to the stranger DNA found inside the home. If the lab is performing genetic genealogy, what does that tell me? That tells me they have not gotten a hit on codis, the Federal DNA Data Bank. Then there are alternative data banks that allow that have a lot lower standards. For instance, Tammy Ballard, and you can explain this much better than me. In the CODIS data Bank, you have to meet a very stringent criteria in order for that DNA to be put into the data bank. Compared to the Arizona DNA Data bank, you can have all sorts of DNA. It could be from a crime scene unresolved. It can be from victims, it can be from bodies that have been found. All sorts of DNA can go into the Arizona Data bank. So once you find. First of all, let's explain that better than I did. What's the difference in the criteria, the standard for the CODIS Data bank versus the Arizona State Data Bank?

[Panel Member (possibly a family member or commentator)]

Well, the Arizona State Data bank is going to be a CODIS database, but they can also have a local CODIS database. They can have a state database, and then you have the national CODIS database. Each one of those is a tiered system because it's very important that the quality of those profiles that enter into those databases will only be associated with a particular individual. If you have millions and millions of people like you do in the national CODIS database, if you put in a mixture of DNA that potentially is associated with 50, 60, 70 different people, then you're no better off than you were before. So you really have to put in very high quality samples into each particular database. So the state database has less individuals, allows for more ambiguity. You've got maybe some more complex mixtures that can go into that database and then you can potentially associate with arrestees, other cases that have maybe some of those mixtures that aren't such high quality either. So there's a lot more potential for a hit or an association in those state databases. And definitely local. San Diego had the largest local database in the entire state. So we could put something in, run it, and instantly at your desktop know if you had an association at the local level. So that also does help speed wise, but they definitely should be maximizing all searches, if at all possible.

[Nancy Grace]

That said, Tammy Ballard, if they've had to come out of the CODIS databases and go into genetic genealogy to find a match to this stranger DNA found in Nancy Guthrie's home, that could take how long?

[Panel Member (possibly a family member or commentator)]

Well, first the positive news. If there's genetic genealogy happening, that means that the integrity of those samples is solid enough to be able to go for the genealogy testing, the SNP profile development, because that is one limitation of, or a potential limitation for genealogy at this point is you cannot do the very complex mixtures like you can with traditional DNA testing. So they must be working with a mixture that is, you know, two very rare. There might be a three person mixture if they can pull somebody out. But the good news is if there is genealogy going on, that means that there are some good samples that were put forward. So why that can take a long time is the development of the profile should hopefully be, you know, expedited. It should be a good quality profile. But then with genealogy you're only as good as what's in the databases as well, and as how many great genealogists are doing all of your legwork. You know, you've got nationality differences, so if you've got different populations, that may or may not be easier to provide that information for genealogy. So there's a lot of factors involved, but I guarantee if genealogy is going on, it's happening on a very big team approach.

[Nancy Grace]

What about Phenotyping.

[Panel Member (possibly a family member or commentator)]

Tammy Ballard, if you're talking about, are you talking about the facial recognition as far as, like, facial features? Yeah, that is, I've seen some phenomenal work with that through the years. We had a profile developed in San Diego for a violent rape murder case. And I will tell you that Parabon generated their snapshot technology and it was, it was spot on. So there's definitely some value in that. I think now that they have less, it seems like we have less individuals to compare to that. And then maybe it's a multifaceted approach and you do the phenotyping and snapshot is the recommendation for that for sure, because even San Diego was a test lab for that, which was pretty interesting back in the day.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to Kurt Dabb joining us out of Tucson, former homicide detective in Pima County. What was the problem? The slowdown on Nano's part, bringing in the feds?

[Kurt Dab]

Well, that's a good question, Nancy. If I was in charge of that case, they would have been at least notified immediately. Contrary to popular belief, you know, there's not a lot of kidnappings that occur in Pima county. And those that are, they're usually drugged or cartel related or domestic violence related. So the expertise with kidnapping obviously lies with the FBI. I think that's one of the missteps that Sheriff Danos made and not contacting them originally and relying on, you know, their investigators, lack of experience, if you will, in investigating a case as complicated as this.

[Nancy Grace]

Kurt Dabb, isn't it true that only 101 out of 196 on the force have the compl. Have their full training?

[Kurt Dab]

Yeah, as. As far as patrol deputies, we have a 196 patrol deputies on the Pima County Sheriff's Department. And 101 of those are still on probation, which means they haven't passed their end of probation review after the advanced academy. So it's pretty sad that the department is this depleted. And what it leaves you is a lot of inexperienced initial responders to a call like this. They don't have the mentors that mentor cops, you know, that have had 10 or 15 or even 20 or more years on, they're learning from young cops. So that's where the mistakes, in my opinion, occurred early on in the investigation.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, I've given Nanos a lot of heat, Kurt Dab, but I don't want to take away from the men and women that are doing the searches. I don't want them to be judged. I mean, I was in the trenches. I was Never an elected official like Nanos is. The people in the trenches are fighting and giving it their best day in and day out, giving it their all. I, I don't want their efforts to be sullied.

[Kurt Dab]

Yeah, no, 100%. Even though they are young and inexperienced, the majority of the agency, truthfully speaking, there's still hard working men and women that know how to do the job. It's just you have Sheriff Nanos and some of his antics makes the entire agency look bad. Look, this is not Mayberry. We, we are a medium to large size agency that covers an area this size bigger than three states. So there are a lot of hardworking men and women. They're doing the job. But sometimes when you have a lack of experience in the field, those that are in the command level staff, you know, end up making the calls on the case. And I think that is some of the things that happened or transpired early on in the investigation.

[Nancy Grace]

And to you, Scott Eicher joining us from Precision Cellular Analysis. Scott, what do you think is happening right now with all of the digital data?

[Scott Eicher]

They're still digging through all that digital data. I mean, every time they get some new lead, they're going to get some new digital data. They're going to download phones, as we're seeing with the sub right there, the Bluetooth sniffer, all that stuff is continually working as new leads come in or they're going back through the thousands of tips that they've had and going back and looking at, okay, yeah, this person said this. All right, let's go download their phone, see if that's it has any value for it. Downloading cars, you know, they're still trying to deal with those, those visuals of those cars passing by a neighbor's house. That's tough work trying to identify the cars that are passing by so fast at night. So I can see them still working this for a long time in that

[Nancy Grace]

aspect that earlier videos from our friends at Fox News and the most recent from Fox Digital. If you know or think you know anything regarding Nancy Guthrie's whereabouts, remember a prosecution or even arrest is not necessary for you. To collect the Reward, dial toll free. 800-225-5324 repeat, 1-800- call FBI or if you wish to remain anonymous, 520-882-7463. Repeat, 520-882-7463. There is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of Mrs. Guthrie. We remember American hero Deputy Sheriff Kenneth Lewis, Fort Bend County Sheriff's Texas killed in the line of duty after serving 11 years, leaving behind three grieving children. American Hero Deputy Sheriff Kenneth Lewis thank you to our guests tonight, but especially to you for being with us and keeping the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight. Good night friend.

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[Jacob Goldstein]

Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo@o d o o.com that's o d o o.com kids pets life.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

Your sofa sees it all. But with a washable sofa, stains don't stand a chance. All of our sofa collections come with fully machine washable covers and cushions, making cleanup effortless. Liquid and stain resistant fabrics provide extra protection against everyday messes. Plus, with modular designs, you can rearrange your sofa however you like. Perfect for growing families and changing spaces. Starting at just $699, it's time to upgrade to a stress free mess proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Radhi Deblokia]

This is Radhi Deblocia from A really Good Cry. I absolutely love being outdoors, even if it's just stepping outside for a bit of fresh air, meals or taking a mindful walk to clear my head. But the one thing that can really ruin that is when my feet feel cramped in my shoes. So I switched to ultra running and honestly, it makes such a difference. What I love most is their signature Ultra Fit, Comfort, Balance Strength. They have this roomy toe box that lets my toes actually spread and move naturally. So I really appreciate that and I feel more grounded and balanced with every single step. It's like my feet can finally do their job using all those little muscles that make me feel stronger the more I'm move. Whether you are a marathon runner, beginner or advanced, or just getting outside to train, Altras have become my go to for running and moving mindfully. They fit so well, they're so comfortable and they just move with you. Shop now at ultrarunning.com and use my code CRY10 for 10% off. That's a L T R-A running.com experience Altra and stay out there.