SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 41

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 41

Date: March 13, 2026
Host: Nancy Grace, iHeartPodcasts and CrimeOnline

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Episode Overview

This episode examines the ongoing disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, the 84-year-old mother of Today Show anchor Savannah Guthrie, who has now been missing for 41 days. Nancy Grace and her panel of investigative experts, legal analysts, a kidnapping survivor, and digital forensics authorities dissect the latest developments, explore potential motives, analyze public safety concerns, and focus on both forensic and behavioral aspects of the unsolved case.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Law Enforcement Communication: Confusion and Concern

• Sheriff Nanos' Statements Raise Alarm

  • Panelists discuss Pima County Sheriff Nanos' recent assertion that Nancy Guthrie was likely targeted and the crime had a specific motive, yet with warnings that the public may still be at risk.
  • Quotes:
    • "We believe we know why he did this and we believe that it was targeted, but we can't. We're not 100% sure of that. And so it'd be silly to tell people, yeah, don't worry about it." – (Sheriff Nanos via Dave Mack, 04:08)
    • "Don't think for a minute that because it happened to the Guthrie family, you're safe." – (Sheriff Nanos, 04:20)

• Expert Critique of Law Enforcement Messaging

  • Brian Fitzgibbons (USPA Nationwide Security) criticizes Nanos for “shooting from the hip,” noting that the sheriff’s statements cause confusion and possibly unnecessary public concern.
    • "He’s made statements in the past that have gone hot across the presses and then he's walked them back time and again. This is yet another one that's very confusing." – (Fitzgibbons, 06:00)

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2. Crime Scene Handling & Potential DNA Evidence

• Concerns Over Scene Contamination

  • Family and neighbors entered Nancy Guthrie’s home before it was secured, and even a pizza delivery person visited the scene.
  • Potential implications for DNA evidence integrity are discussed.

• Expert Perspective on DNA Evidence

  • Fitzgibbons expresses optimism that the initial law enforcement walkthrough may have preserved enough viable DNA evidence for potential prosecution.
    • "I believe that they were able to preserve and collect probative DNA evidence at the scene in their first walkthrough." – (Fitzgibbons, 08:16)

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3. Insights from a Kidnapping Survivor

• Survivor’s Psychological Tactics and Resilience

  • Cheryl Hunter, survivor and author, shares her experience of surviving an overseas kidnapping, revealing unconscious strategies she used to humanize herself and cope.
    • "I started talking about my little brother ... and I think what I did was I turned myself out of being an object ... into a human." – (Cheryl Hunter, 13:26)
    • "There has been no proof of life. And I, like everyone now, am just praying that she is safe, she is alive, and that she will be returned." – (Hunter, 12:16)

• Turning Instinct Into Survival

  • Hunter describes how focusing on a spot of light kept her mentally resilient.
    • "That dancing spot of light that stayed there all of the days that I was held gave me a sense of freedom." – (Hunter, 15:50)

• A Call to Action and Hope

  • She stresses community support and action as remedies to hopelessness.
    • "The antidote to hopelessness is action, is inspired action and helping another." – (Hunter, 19:56)

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4. Behavioral Analysis: Motive & Method

• Examination of Ransom and Retribution Theories

  • Robin Dreek, former FBI Behavioral Analysis Program Chief, suggests that if ransom was the goal, the execution was clumsy—no proof of life, and the ransom demanded via media not direct channels.
    • "If you’re going to do a ransom and abduction, this is exactly not the way to do it." – (Dreek, 26:50)
  • Alternatives such as personal retribution or targeted theft are also discussed, but Nancy Grace expresses skepticism over each.

• Home Invasion vs. Personal Targeting

  • Dreek suggests it may have been a home invasion to acquire something specific inside, though it’s unclear what that could be.
    • "Targeted against Nancy for something in that house, whether her or an object or a thing of monetary value." – (Dreek, 30:59)

• Critique of Theories Involving Personal Relationships or Retribution

  • Nancy Grace pushes back on social media theories about secret relationships or “boyfriends,” describing them as implausible.
    • "Don’t you think by now we would know if 84 year old Nancy Guthrie had a boy toy? I think we would." – (Grace, 29:28)

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5. Forensic Technology: Cameras, Utility Box, and Digital Data

• Porch Camera and Internet Outage

  • Focus on a vandalized utility box near Guthrie’s home, believed by some to possibly be related to neighborhood internet outages the night of the abduction.

• Expert Digital Forensics Input

  • James Bass (Evidence Solutions) clarifies that the box likely only contained traditional phone wires, not fiber optic cables affecting Wi-Fi. An attack on the box would have produced a lasting, not intermittent, outage.

    • "If it were severed at the box, then it would require a work order to be fixed. It would not have been intermittent." – (Bass, 43:57)

  • Further, the notion that the perpetrator may have misunderstood the technology, perhaps assuming that attacking the box would take down cameras, is considered plausible but unlikely to indicate sophistication.

• Porch Guy’s Behavior and Security Awareness

  • Analysis of the suspect’s efforts to obscure cameras but not fully disable them suggests some level of criminal experience but only rudimentary understanding of modern surveillance.
    • "They were very fluid with their actions ... but not as experienced, obviously, to deal with a ring camera or nest camera because they were trying to cover it with a branch." – (Dreek, 32:53)

• Data Tracking and Cell Dump Analysis

  • Massive potential in using cell phone tower dumps, Google and Apple location data to track devices moving through the crime scene.
    • "With the location stamps, you'll be able to put an individual or the cell phone generally within a 3 to 10 meter radius ... at a millisecond timestamp." – (Bass, 51:32)

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6. Investigative Best Practices & Search Protocols

• Private Investigator's Approach
  • Fitzgibbons outlines how a private search effort would coordinate with police, implement advanced grid searches, and employ drone technology, always working within law enforcement boundaries.
    • "As a private investigator, we never want to step on the toes of law enforcement ..." – (Fitzgibbons, 09:56)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Personal Impact Statement

  • "What we can control is contributing, being kind, and finding a way to make those people's lives just a little bit brighter."
    – Cheryl Hunter (19:56)

• Community Safety Concern

  • "Don't think for a minute that because it happened to the Guthrie family, you're safe ... Keep your wits about you."
    – Sheriff Nanos (04:20)

• Skepticism Toward Motives

  • "She’s not a special agent. What could possibly be in her home that would justify this?"
    – Nancy Grace (31:57)

• On Resilience

  • "We are really, each of us, far more resilient than we could ever anticipate."
    – Cheryl Hunter (21:31)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:04 – Introduction and latest status on Nancy Guthrie’s disappearance
• 04:08 – Sheriff Nanos’ statements analyzed
• 06:00 – Fitzgibbons on law enforcement confusion and public risk
• 08:16 – Chain of evidence and DNA discussion
• 12:07 – Cheryl Hunter details survival psychology
• 26:50 – Robin Dreek analyzes ransom and abduction models
• 41:13 – Utility box vandalism and possible connectivity impact
• 43:57 – Digital forensics expert explains utility box limitations
• 50:08 – Potential of Google/Apple data in solving the case
• 52:25 – Call for tips and $1.2 million reward

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Summary & Call to Action

This episode provides a thorough, sometimes contentious, breakdown of all major theories and investigative developments in the Nancy Guthrie disappearance. It combines law enforcement status updates, forensic and behavioral analysis, survivor testimony, and digital investigative possibilities. Despite confusion and conflicting hypotheses, Nancy Grace and her team emphasize hope and the vital need for public action.

If you have information regarding the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, contact the tip line at 800-225-5324. There is a $1.2 million reward for her return.

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Tone and Style:
Direct, passionate, detail-oriented, and highly skeptical. Nancy Grace guides the discussion with persistent questioning, emotional engagement, and unfiltered commentary.

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Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother Nancy Guthrie missing. Day 41. The very latest in the search for Nancy Guthrie, an 84 year old beloved grandmother. Plus, do we have a motive? If we have a motive, can we ID the kidnapper? Straight out to Dave Matt, crime stories, investigative reporter. What about it, Dave?

[Dave Mack]

Nancy, we know that over the last couple of weeks there have been zero press conferences done by Sheriff Nanos. But he has talked to some media one on one, not really having to answer questions, just softball stuff for him to share what he's thinking. And he actually, Sheriff Nanos actually came out with some stuff on the NBC Nightly news that was actually pretty scary. Scary for the community, scary for all of us who have been watching this story unfold. But here is Sheriff Nanos on NBC Nightly News. We believe we know why he did

[James Bass]

this and we believe

[Nancy Grace]

that it was targeted, but we can't.

[James Bass]

We're not 100% sure of that. And so it'd be silly to tell

[Nancy Grace]

people, yeah, don't worry about it.

[James Bass]

You're not his target. Don't think for a minute that because it happened to the Guthrie family, you're safe.

[Nancy Grace]

No, keep.

[James Bass]

Keep your wits about you.

[Dave Mack]

So Nanos is now saying, we believe she was targeted. We know the motive, nobody is safe, but that's it. Not giving us any specifics. I guess the biggest problem we have with all of this is why is it that after this long of a period of time, are we just now telling everybody you're not safe? We thought from the very beginning, targeted, going after Nancy Guthrie, the obvious connection to her daughter Savannah being very high profile with the today show being local in Tucson for a number of weeks prior to the kidnapping. I mean, there was a lot going on here that was all very, very specific to Nancy Guthrie. Now, even though Sheriff Nanos is not telling us there's anything specific, but saying that others could be at risk. That's a shocking beginning to the news. One has to wonder if Nanos is using this as an opportunity to take some of the attention away from the resume and why he left El Paso back in the day. It's all I can think of now.

[Nancy Grace]

To Brian Fitzgibbons joining us. Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security, leading a team of investigators around the world, including extractions from Mexico, finding missing people. Former Marine, Iraqi war vet Brian, weigh in.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

I like to separate signal from noise, meaning, you know, on radio traffic you get good signal and then you get noise that clutters that message from coming in. I have to interpret this as noise coming from Sheriff Nanos. He's made statements in the past that have gone hot across the presses and then he's walked them back time and again. This is yet another one that's very confusing to say. We have a motive. The public isn't safe yet. Earlier he said this was targeted directly to Nancy. So if we take it at face value, this is very concerning. Right, because it means that there's an individual or group of individuals that are directly targeting wealthy elderly citizens in the greater Tucson area. I don't believe that that was Nanos intention. My hope is that he misspoke and that this didn't come across correctly. But hey, there's no playbook for what Nanos has been saying here. It seems like he's shooting from the hip in these press releases and in these media engagements and causing quite a bit of confusion with the public.

[Dave Mack]

And Brian, one of the things that we have been following all along, blood deposition on the front entryway and inside the house. But the security of this site from the very beginning. We know that when Nancy Guthrie's family shows up to check on her, okay, they came going to assume they came into the home. They didn't just stand outside in the driveway and say, oh, we don't see mom. So we know that they went into the house. We probably can assume a neighbor or two was there as well, you know, as they were trying to figure out where she was. But the scene was not secured after 24 hours. We even know that a pizza delivery guy showed up at the front door. How corrupt is the DNA or how usable will it be as this investigation moves forward? Because Nanos is suggesting the case will be broken by DNA. Chain of evidence on the DNA on the front porch. What's going to happen with all of this?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

You know, I have to if we take a step back, you know, most crime scenes aren't secure for some period of time after a crime is committed, right? Until police arrive and actually get a hold on that scene and put up a perimeter to keep the public out. Now, in this case, you're spot on, right? They had the scene, they released the scene, then you had days of nobody there, then a security guard posted out front keeping the media away. Then the law enforcement was back to the scene. So again, what was collected on that initial shot by Pima county, we won't know right away. I believe that they, they were able to preserve and collect probative DNA evidence at the scene in their first walkthrough. So I'm not, I'm not so particularly worried about that, that evidence. In light of a potential, potential prosecution. I think what's very concerning right now is this new statement from Nanos really opens up. Are they aware of a motive? What direction is this investigation going? And do they believe that the people in Tucson are really in some sort of danger? Or was that again, like we said earlier, was that just an off the cuff statement taken the wrong way?

[Dave Mack]

If this was your investigation, you're in charge and we're at day 40 plus now. What would you be doing today, Brian?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Well, so to be clear, as a private investigator on the private side, we're never in charge of an investigation like this. We would work. The first thing that we would do is generate what we call a memorandum of understanding with the Pima County Sheriff's Office to clearly define the left and right lateral limits of what our organization would do. And one of the first things we do is bring in advanced search and rescue assets as well as, and that could include drones identifying areas for grid search. The second thing would be identifying who, who we can and can't talk to because as a private investigator, we never want to step on the toes of law enforcement. So the first immediate step would be a briefing with Pima county to clearly identify where they would or would not want us to go, set up reporting parameters. Everything we do would be sent effectively in a one way street of information to the sheriff's office. And then, as I said, search and rescue, advanced search and rescue technologies would be brought in to start aggressively grid searching that area.

[Nancy Grace]

Is Nancy Guthrie, a beloved mother and grandmother, alive? What is she suffering right now? Is she hidden away in some basement being fed? What does she have her meds? Does she dream about her children and going back to her home? Joining us now is a woman who knows the answers. Firsthand to those type of questions with a Cheryl Hunter, kidnaps survivor and author of Use It Turn Setbacks into Success on Amazon. Use It Turn Setbacks into success. You can find [e-mail]. that's Cheryl with a C. Cheryl, thank you for being with us tonight.

[Cheryl Hunter]

Nancy, it's good to see you again.

[Nancy Grace]

I can only imagine what Nancy Guthrie's ordeal has been triggering in your mind.

[Cheryl Hunter]

It has been triggering a lot. One of the things that is most haunting is that there has been no proof of life. And I, like everyone now, am just praying that she is safe, she is alive, and that she will be returned.

[Nancy Grace]

Cheryl, for those not familiar with your ordeal, what happened?

[Cheryl Hunter]

I was a teenager traveling overseas with my best friend. I was approached by a man with a camera who said, are you a model? I can make you one. Just come with me and my friend over there. And I thought, that's not a very prudent thing to do. But I wanted to live in a big city. I was from a very rural horse ranch in the mountains of Colorado, and I thought, aha, this could be my opportunity. Now, obviously, they were not photographers. They had nothing to do with modeling. They were criminals. They held me captive, they abused me in every way, and they eventually let me go. And over the years, Nancy, I've speculated on why, and the best I can come up with is that I humanized myself. Now, none of this happened consciously. I was a teenager at the time, and I started talking about my little brother who was having problems in school, and he was being held back a year. And I said, but he's very smart. He invents things. I think he could really make something of his life, and I hope he doesn't let this discourage him. And I would talk about my grandmother trying to hold my hand in public, and I think what I did was I turned myself out of being an object, which is how a criminal relates to a kidnapping victim. You know, they're an object. They're a means to an end. They're a tool to get what they want. And somehow, in this fit of brilliance that I had in talking about my family, I turned myself back into a human. I can only pray that Nancy Guthrie, if she's alive and able to have any interaction with them, is doing the same with us.

[Nancy Grace]

Is Cheryl Hunter, kidnapped survivor and author of Use It Turn Setbacks into success. Cheryl, in the darkest moments of your ordeal, the darkest moments, how did you keep going? How did you survive?

[Cheryl Hunter]

I In the darkest moments. And by that I mean these monsters were torturing Me and cutting me. And they were on top of me and assaulting me in every way you could imagine. I. Now I know I dissociated. I craned my head as far as I could, and on the wall in the room that they had me, there was a little speck of light. And I thought that light must be coming from something outside, something which is free. And I stared at it with all my mind, thinking if I stared hard enough, I could become this. Now, that wasn't something I planned out. I simply could not look at them. Cutting me, torturing me, raping me. I had to look away. And somehow that dancing spot of light that stayed there all of the days that I was held gave me a sense of freedom. I could just, like this spark of light, fly away anytime I chose.

[Nancy Grace]

Cheryl, I have so many questions to ask you. But that story that you just told about that dancing, glittering spark of light on the wall, getting you through the worst moments of the worst moments of your life, just. I don't know, it's very, very poignant. I think some of what you're saying is you were acting out of instinct, focusing away from what was happening to you on a dancing speck of light, humanizing yourself to your abductors. But you were held for a considerable period of time. Were you fed? Were you allowed to sleep? What happened?

[Cheryl Hunter]

Well, I was not fed and I passed out. I don't know how else to characterize it. They gave me water. Originally. They had drugged me. They asked me if I wanted wine, and that was drugged. I passed out. And it was much later I was in a car and I woke up and saw that we were going up a windy road. And I realized this was not good. My head was hanging out of the. Of the passenger, front passenger window with my tongue out, kind of like a dog. And over the period of days, I got water a couple of times, but that was it. And I presume that's how they continued to drug me, but I was just out of it entirely. I was laying there at times in water, and I. I'm sure it was my own urine, but they also tried to drown me. I. Yes, it was instinct, those things that I did. Humanizing myself and looking away and staring at the light. But I can't say that I thought to do those things. It was not conscious thought at all. It was just a reflexive, instinctive response. I was too young. I had no experience with anything horrific. It was just, as you'd said, an instinct.

[Nancy Grace]

Cheryl Hunter, when you have been hearing about Nancy Guthrie and what she's going through, what her family is going through, how has that affected you?

[Cheryl Hunter]

It's very hard to be with. I initially thought I must turn off the TV and stop watching this. But the truth is that I'm very blessed. I not only overcame the impact of the kidnapping in my life, but I went on to help thousands of other people overcome the impact of the violent crime in their own lives that they had faced. And I thought it's my duty to pay attention because I do demonstrate that it's possible to go on after trauma. As I followed Nancy Guthrie's case, one of the things that's become disturbingly sad is that I've read in many comments that people say, my son has been gone for 17 years and I don't know where he went, or my father disappeared and no one can find him. I say that to say that there are many people suffering right now. And what's common in an occurrence like this, where we have experienced something that seems unfathomable and out of our control, is that we feel hopeless. And I've found over the years since my kidnapping that the antidote to hopelessness is action, is inspired action and helping another. So, yes, contribute in some way to different funds and causes that are supporting the family of Nancy Guthrie or to the beautiful tributes that people are paying to her. But there's also those in our own communities who are suffering and hurting. And whenever we feel hopeless, if we just remember that there's someone else who's hurting and feeling hopeless as well. And what we can control is contributing, being kind, and finding a way to make those people's lives just a little bit brighter. And I want to demonstrate that and lend my voice to this sad, sad state of affairs.

[Nancy Grace]

Cheryl Hunter, you survived. That gives people hope that Nancy Guthrie can survive. Yes, I know she's elderly. Yes, I know she has health problems, but she can survive. There is a hope. There is a glimmer of hope that she is yet alive and can be brought home. You did it.

[Cheryl Hunter]

I pray that that's the case. And people say, well, there's been no proof of life, as though that is definitive. Well, there's also been no proof of death, and I'm hanging my hat on that and my hopes on that, that she is, in fact, alive. That as crazy as it sounds, somehow she's watching all of these conversations about her and she's allowing this massive outpouring of love and ATT and affection to fortify her. We are really, each of us, far more resilient than we could ever anticipate. And we all have proven it to ourselves in one way or another. We've all dealt with circumstances that we never would have chosen for ourselves. And I know that if Nancy is alive, that Nancy Guthrie can truly overcome, as can her family and her loved ones.

[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

In the Mind of Nancy Guthrie's Kidnapper. Joining us now, special guest Robin Dreek, behavioral expert and former FBI Special Agent, Chief of the FBI Counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, repeat chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, author of Sizing People Up, A Veteran FBI Agent's Manual for Behavior Prediction. Robin Drake, it's so great to have you joining us tonight. First of all, based on the status of the investigation right now, what we know right now, clearly no robbery, no burglary, not a random kidnapping. What could possibly be the motive?

[Robin Dreek]

Robin I'm going to remove the ransom notes from this one only because I think the ransom notes is a great attempt to spear phishing. Because, you know, typically when people are targeting someone to take advantage of them, manipulate them through really nasty black hatted social engineering, they're taking known information, knowledge and manipulating it for their own gain. Because if you're going to do a ransom and abduction, this is exactly not the way to do it. And that's ever been done this way before because the first thing you always have to do for a ransom is sign of life, proof of life, not given. The other thing that they also do in ransoms is they communicate directly with the family. Because remember, you always got to look at, according to what John Roberts, the first FBI profile says, you always have to look for intent. And if the intent is to get money, you have to make it easy to get the money. Whoever is doing these ransom notes through media, which is also never done, made it very, very difficult to get the money because they made it implausible with no sign of life. And so I kind of discounted that from the very beginning.

[Nancy Grace]

I agree and disagree with what you just said. I think initially the motive was money, but many legal eagles believe that everything went sideways and the original motive became impossible to achieve. But if it wasn't for ransom money, then what could it have been?

[Robin Dreek]

So now we got to look at what's the motive, Intent. There's really kind of two schools of thought on this. So let's take for argument's sake that it was targeted, it was targeted for Nancy or her establishment or something there. They wanted something inside that house. They either wanted an object or they wanted Nancy. Some theories out there are that it was targeted towards Nancy through some sort of retribution against either Nancy or Savannah herself. And that even if it was Nancy, that was might be a secret that she held of someone that had it in for her. To me, that kind of falls apart a bit because there's always leakage of an individual that is targeting someone that has malicious intent or there's some sort of stalking or there's some sort of note, there's something that says it was for that intent. And if it was intent to take Nancy out of that house. Because I looked up the research on this too. If it was a targeted abduction in retribution for Nancy, that the intent was to take her out of that house. 3 to 12 minutes is as long as those take. On average this was 41 minutes. And so something went different.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, Robin Drake, your former FBI behavioral analyst and I don't want to throw you in the same pot to stew with online conspiracy theorists, but you're stating that the perp may be someone that had a, quote, relationship with Nancy Guthrie. Take a listen to this. My theory, my opinion is that Nancy was abducted by a boyfriend or a friend that is a boy, A man of her own. Not an obsession with Savannah, not anything to do with anybody else but Nancy. I am not an intuitive. I'm not anything like that. I don't know anything other people don't know. I just want to speak into the universe that my theory is this is about Nancy and her friend or boyfriend and maybe he hired somebody. Maybe that's from Abby and mom. TikTok Abby and mom on TikTok A boyfriend. Don't you think by now we would know if 84 year old Nancy Guthrie had a boy toy? I think we would. That said Robin's reek. Let's veer back out of the weeds and into the middle of the road. Robin, you are unconvinced that the purpose someone that Mrs. Guthrie had with whom she had a relationship,

[Robin Dreek]

think about this. If it was for retribution against Nancy in some way and she was hiding it because that's what one of theories is, that she didn't share it with someone, what 84 year old woman that's close to her family that has church friends and all these things isn't going to share with her relatives, friends and close associates that someone has it in for her or she got hate mail or something. So that's why that's kind of on the outskirts. But at the same time, more of my theory of that this was a home invasion for robbery, targeted for something inside that house that it took them 41 minutes to find is. Is it's an outlier because of the type of targeting. 84 years old. But the same time, though, there's no data that supports the other one. And a little bit more on this one in my mind, but both sides are open. But again, targeted against Nancy for something in that house, whether her or an object or a thing of monetary value.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, Robin Drake. I hate to argue with an FBI behavioral analyst, but that sounds crazy to me. This top secret thing that they wanted out of her house. What? The necklace Savannah gave her two Christmases ago. What? Just doesn't make any sense. She's not a special agent. What could possibly be in her home that would justify this? They could easily break in when she's not there. And, and even if they did or did not find the top secret object you're talking about, if it was for an object, why would they take an 84 year old that can't walk past 50 yards along with them? That doesn't make any sense. None at all. Okay, let me go with another topic. The suspect's behavior. What do you make of that? Robin Drake?

[Robin Dreek]

Yeah, Suspects behavior at the front door. And definitely someone that had some reps, as I call them, in doing a home invasion of some sort. They were very fluid with their actions and what they were doing. They're very comfortable with it. And so again, this kind of supports my theory that someone that was on that front porch had some experience in home invasion before for whatever purpose that was for abduction or for getting something inside that house. And so they're comfortable doing it, but not as experienced, obviously, to deal with a ring camera or nest camera because they were trying to cover it with a branch. Which also kind of discounts, you know, one of the theories that someone's come out with recently that they maybe they use a wi fi jammer or something, which also has a very limited, limited distance that works in. Because if they're. If they had a wi fi jammer on them, they wouldn't have tried to kind of COVID up that nest camera. Also, one of the theories out there that people are floating out was there's a Relative or someone close to Nancer knew the property well. And my theory is that it was someone, maybe one degree of separation, that knew of something in that house, knew of something of value. Because there's a lot easier ways to get in that house than that front door, which had a double gate on the front, the side door, the back door around the pool. There's a lot of other ways to do this than actually going in that front door. That was covered very well.

[Nancy Grace]

Robin Dreek, behavioral analysis expert and former FBI. What do you make of the porch guy? The perp's behavior on the front porch and how that relates to an Internet outage in the neighborhood.

[Robin Dreek]

Would he be able to tell that it was still connected to WI fi or just connected to power? Because if he's trying to take down the WI fi in the neighborhood, it's still. Again, it's a hard thing to assess on the front step. And here's the other thing that I think is important for people to also take in. You're looking at limited data from the neighbor who said they lost connectivity to their own ring camera that night at that time. Okay. Have they looked at the pattern to behavior, how often that ring camera loses connectivity over the course of a day, a week, a month, to see if it actually fit a pattern or if it was an enigma or a blip. So data points are great if you're actually doing them and looking for an arc of behavior between technology as well as human behavior. Because if it's a blip, then it's something to pay attention to. If it's just another data point that is completely normal, it might not pan out.

[Nancy Grace]

Robin Drake, I hear what you're saying right there. And while you were talking, I was reassessing what you said about the perp going into Nancy Guthrie's home. A. As retribution against Nancy Guthrie. I still think that's completely bogus. That's crap right there. Forget that. Just mark that off my list of possibilities. But you did say going in for a specific item and that they spent 41 minutes looking for the item, And I took it to mean some secret item nobody else knew about, but actually, you might be right. What if a granny nanny told her son, the black sheep son, that Ms. Guthrie has jewelry hidden in a certain spot in her home? Or keeps, you know, $10,000 cash taped to the bottom of the bed? I don't know. Something like that. An item of value in that home, and it leaked to someone. I can go with you that far, Robin, that they went in for a specific item. But then taking Nancy Guthrie with them. They were in full disguise. So taking Nancy Guthrie with them? She can't walk over 50 yards. She has all sorts of health issues. They should just go in and get it and leave with that scenario. That's where you lose me. Why would they take her with them if this were not a kidnapping? Kidnapping for ransom and the whole retribution thing as a motive against her for what? She screwed up the knitting circle? No. And retribution against Savannah Guthrie or her husband. This is pretty far fetched. I'm going to kidnap your mom because you said X during the Today show or because your husband worked for Fill in the blank and then never take credit for it and explain why it's retribution. None of that makes any sense to me. It's very fantastical. But everything's on the table tonight. Crime Stories is so proud to be supported by Grand Canyon University, an affordable, private, non profit Christian university based in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona. GCU doesn't settle for the status quo, they shatter it. At gcu, academically rigorous, industry driven programs are built to move at the speed of relevance with practical skills, career readiness and opportunity for every learner. And GCU believes education should not be a privilege, but an affordable path forward for all. In fact, they've kept tuition at the same rate on their traditional campus for the past 17 years and they're continuing that into the 2026-2027 academic year. Grounded in Christian faith, GCU works to empower the next generation to lead with integrity, serve with purpose and help transform their communities, Building a future that matters. GCU is purpose driven education. Take action. Find your purpose at GCU. Private Christian Affordable Nonprofit. Visit gcu.edu to learn more.

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[Nancy Grace]

Tonight, a vandalized cracked wide open utility box is taking center stage. Straight out to Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Dave, why?

[Dave Mack]

Because this utility box that shows really vandal, it shows a lot of vandalism. But Nancy, this utility box right there, you got to realize this brings in phone fiber optic cable which by the way, that's how many of us use the Internet. This box is being tied to possibly an Internet outage that was happening in the neighborhood at the time we believe Nancy Guthrie was kidnapped. This utility box is just around the corner from her home next to the neighbor that her the neighbor's home that sees into Nancy Guthrie's backyard. Nancy, we've got a lot going on with this box and the possibility that Internet connectivity was blacked out for a brief period of time the night Nancy Guthrie disappeared.

[Nancy Grace]

The video we're showing you right now is from our friends at wcnc. This utility box near Nancy Guthrie's home. Okay, straight out to our guest and all star panel, James Bass joining us. James is a digital forensic analyst, expert witness with Evidence Solutions Inc. There in Tucson, James Bass, thank you for being with us. What do you make of it? Let's take a look at this video again. A utility box pried Open and vandalized at the time Nancy Guthrie goes missing. What would this have to do with the blackout experience by. We know, two neighbors of Nancy Guthrie's. By the way, this video from our friends at wcnc. What about it, James?

[James Bass]

Well, not exactly sure that these two could be connected. Looking at the utility box, the way it's set up and the wires that are in it, they appear that they are likely just your regular telephone wires. Your telephone infrastructure, that would not affect your. Your WI fi. I would assume this pretty much. Please now interact.

[Nancy Grace]

I want to see the utility box. James, granted, I'm just a trial lawyer. You're the digital expert. How can you look at this tangle of wires and tell me, oh, it's nothing but phone wires. And then to me, I don't understand how you know that by looking at that, that it's just phone wires. I mean, doesn't a lot of fiber optics include phone? Your cable, your WI FI connection? And again, thanks to WCNC for this. But what do you mean they're just phone wires? I didn't think there even were just phone wires anymore.

[James Bass]

Well, the wires are still there and the infrastructure still there. It still supports a lot of what we do today. Your fiber optic is. Is just one. Is a fiber optic cable. Your phones would have three or four pairs that are connected in that junction box. It looks like spaghetti. If you were to have something that interrupted the service, if it were ahead, if it were severed at the box, then it would require a work order to be fixed. It would have been an outage that was permanent. It would not have been intermittent. If that were the intent, then you would have to come back and fix it. It would not come back on on its own.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, now that is making sense. If the box were vandalized and WI fi cut off, then it would stay off. They couldn't repair the WI fi. Okay, but what about this? Let's see the porch guy, please. Control room. What if the perp go with me on this? Not just his face, his whole self, please. What if the perp thought he had disabled it by attacking that utility box? Then he comes up and sees the light on the porch cam blinking or sees some type of activity, A motion sensor movement or something. He's going, oh, h E, double L. And then goes to get the foliage to cover it up. He's like, okay, well, that didn't work. Would that make sense, Bass?

[James Bass]

Possibly. But if. If you were going to the extent to attack a utility infrastructure, you would probably know that that was gonna. That was not going to affect how the Internet service is delivered.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, you know that because you're a digital forensic expert. But not every regular person would know that. They would see that utility box near Nancy Guthrie's home and go, hey, I'll attack that. I'll take out the WI fi. Entirely possible.

[James Bass]

That would be possible, yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, hold on, hold on. Let's see the video of the porch guy walking up. I want to hone in on what we think is the walkie talkie or a signal jammer. Okay. Take a look at what's in his pocket. Is it just a walkie talkie and he attempted to take out the utility box. Is the utility box attack the reason? Investigators are now stating at least one of them, that they are close to a breakthrough. Straight out to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us. He is the director of operations at USPA Nationwide Security. Fitzgibbons leads a team of investigators that go around the world finding and extracting missing people. He is a former marine, and he is an Iraqi war vet. There could be the issue of motive. Is this connected to Guthrie or not? Has this happened in similar neighborhoods? If so, is it just a thug? Is it just, like, a graffiti artist or somebody that goes around knocking down mailboxes or throwing stones or shooting. Shooting out street lamps? No real motive except for the pure joy of it.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah, I think Occam's razor tells us that, number one, the motive could be to try to find copper wire. Or number two, it fits that second category that you just described, that this is just straight up vandalism. I don't believe that this has any connection to Mrs. Guthrie's disappearance. For the simple fact that this would not. There's no fiber optic in there. This would have nothing to do with disconnecting a security system.

[Nancy Grace]

Fitz Gibbons, you know, I think, is the strongest argument that this is not connected to Guthrie. What Bass said at the get go, James Bass, he said that if that caused the outage, it would have remained outed. You'd have to have somebody come and fix it. The perp can't destroy it. And what, he just happens to be a fiber optic repair person? No. So that, I believe, is going to be a dead end unless the perp tried to out it with that and it didn't work and then went to jammers. Now I'm going to circle back to jammers, but I want to really hit something with Bass. We've heard so much about data dumps, and I remember starting it on day one. A data dump. Of all the Cell phones in and out of the area. That was before Nano's allowed the FBI. And they lost a lot of valuable time by the way, while Nano's was twiddling his thumbs. The data dump would have showed all cell phone connectivity in the area. It would have shown for instance, a uconnect, which is a device already pre wired in vehicles, newer vehicles that connect you to the car, WI fi, iPads that are trying to connect or touch WI fi sources as they go by. It could be a smartwatch, it could be any number of devices that connect via Wi fi. But you're saying Google and or Apple could save the day. Now as you're talking James Bass. Remember I'm just a trial lawyer dummy down for me. Google's already saved the day once by getting resurrecting from the dead that porch cam. So what can they do for us, Google or Apple?

[James Bass]

Most folks don't realize just how much data they create every day, just through a normal course of business, every day of their lives they're creating data points that they, they couldn't even comprehend. So once you're able to filter down from the cell phone tower dumps, you know, if you can find a specific suspect address or device cell phone, you're then going to be able to go back to people like Google or Apple. Google collects more data than Apple does. But for instance, your location points every minute.

[Nancy Grace]

You completely skaved everyone out when you were talking about how Google you said in the background following you. Well I'm like my thought on that is fine, follow me to Kroger, follow me to Walmart. I'd just be mad if you didn't, but that's me. So you stated that Google and I guess Apple too, but you mentioned Google is following you in the background. In other words, you don't really know this is happening. And they can say, oh she parked her car at Walmart, all right, it's like every 30 seconds they're updating your location. How's that going to help me?

[James Bass]

Well, what it will enable you to do is once you identify this device, you send a search warrant to Google and ask for this information. And anyone can download their information and look at what is being collected. It's free, they'll email it to you and you can review it. But with the location stamps, you'll be able to put an individual or the cell phone generally within a 3 to 10 meter radius. You know, anywhere from, from 10 to 30ft to a particular latitude and longitude at a millisecond timestamp. So once you, once you get the device and you get this information now you see when they're taking their steps, where they've parked their car, where they've gone shopping, where they've how they drive to work and how they drive home. It unlocks an entire history because that data is saved for the life of the account.

[Nancy Grace]

If you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll free 800-225-5324. Repeat 800-225-5324 or if you wish to remain anonymous 5208-8274-6352-0882, 7463 There is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of Nancy Guthrie. 1.2 plus million dollars on the table. There does not have to be an arrest, much less a conviction. We continue to do our very best to keep the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Goodbye friend.

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[Nancy Grace]

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