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this is an i heart podcast guaranteed
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human crime stories with nancy grace savannah guthrie's mother nancy guthrie missing with this many agents on the ground all the personnel all the technology how is it possible we take a close look at exactly what the fbi is looking at the tattoo on the porch guys wrist what can we learn believe me a lot this as the pima county sheriff issues an urgent plea for everyone in the surrounding area to hand in video will it make a difference well when you don't know a horse look at the track record the answer is yes also at this hour the fbi behavioral analyst unit carefully reviewing not just the porch guy video but the alleged ransom note why straight out to dave mack crime stories investigative reporter dave a crew armed with ladders has arrived at nancy guthrie's home and gone up on the roof what can you tell me why
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are they there this silver pickup truck with multiple ladders in the back pulled onto the guthrie property pulled around the driveway and got up on the house we don't know what they were looking for and no announcement has been made but activity at nancy guthrie's home now
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we've examined it like a rubik's cube over and over trying to discern what if anything we can learn from the tattoo on the porch guy's wrist and tonight our findings joining us in all star panel but straight out to special guest darren the dude rosa tattoo artist joining us from rising dragon tattoos in new york city thirty plus years in the tattoo business mister rosa thank you for being with us let's start control room please show the video of the perp approaching misses guthrie's porch the fbi according to sources has enlarged refined and brought in a team of analysts to to review the tattoo as you see he very carefully covered his arms and wrists not just because he doesn't want to leave fingerprints it's really hard to get an arm print or an elbow print that's not the reason his body is totally covered now let's iso the tattoo the sliver of tattoo that we see we have learned the fbi is doing exactly what we are doing darren the dude rosa you have studied this for hours what is as you call it black and gray work black and
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gray work is a very prevalent style not only in the southwestern area but let's say the southwestern area among a gangs mexican people who might be in these gangs or cartels like to get black and gray it's a fine line the outlines are done with a very fine needle the details the shading is done with different dilutions of black ink and we termed that gray so black and gray is considered a style and this is most likely that style now
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you mentioned gang cartel i am certainly not convinced that nancy guthrie's kidnapping has any of the hallmarks of a cartel move but what about a gang member wannabe what about family of gang member what about family of gang members and hangers on i don't think you can limit to just a gang or a cartel member because once a tattoo is observed by others they want to replicate it right and i want to hone in on the black and gray but as to relating to a gang or a cartel let's focus on gang
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why
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do you believe the black and gray is from the southwest or from a certain region of the country and what region exactly would that be mister rosa
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okay well first of all let's let's deal with just the practicality of black and gray if we're talking about a tattoo that was done in a penitentiary they these inmates don't have access to color ink but most likely they don't even want this is a style that's been embellishing gangs for for years and they've honed this style this very subtle gradations of ink to a fine art and this is even considered hallmarks of people who have moved up in the echelons of a gang why do you say that well these people are going to be doing a lot of time they're not giving up they're not becoming informants they're going to be spending five years ten years behind bars they have a lot of time to kill guys
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with us is darren the dude rosa joining us from rising dragon tattoos in new york city thirty years plus of experience in the tattoo art black and gray now i just want to be sure we understand have you ever seen a child with a coloring book they outline the picture heavily with the crayon and then there's a lighter hue the same color on the inside that's how i'm equating your description of black and gray would that be correct
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well no because it wouldn't be with the same quote unquote crayon the dilutions is what i called it are using you know let's say it was penitentiary so the dilutions would be created using different concentrations of black ink diluted with water but most likely a little bit of alcohol because you know for germs and it also helps spread the ink and create a finer mist of shading the alcohol
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but black and gray work is a hallmark of a certain region of our country you're saying that too oh yes
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and absolutely this is also the kind of the style of tattooing that withstands heavy sun exposure because like i said this style fine line typically single needle work and you know these people are out in the sun the southern western states get heavy sun exposure so this style of artistry can withstand the elements
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you mentioned a single needle would black and gray be done with multiple needles to that degree of finesse the shading
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would be done with multiple needles to typically the outline is done with a single needle and it's actually a very difficult style to do so an artist can gain quite a status in a penitentiary if he's adept at this style
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darren the dude rosa joining us from rising dragon tattoos in new york what do you make of this tattoo in the sense of i believe it's part of a much bigger tattoo and that leads me to think it's part of a sleeve what do you think oh
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absolutely i mean if this is all we're seeing and what is this like barely half of an inch this is most likely the continuation of something that covers this man's entire arm most likely he's got tattoos on his hands he's wearing this hooded mask this balaclava most likely he's got tattoos on his neck and maybe even something under his eye because this is what they do darren
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you mentioned covering up his arm yes i want to get back to the full sleeve because to me from what i've observed from inmates over all the years i prosecuted and investigated and covered crimes once you start you can't stop and that leads me to think this on him looks part of a bigger tattoo that tells me it's a full sleeve and once somebody gets a full sleeve it's like they can't stop i mean do you think people get addicted to getting tattoos i do
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you know getting addicted has you know know that that stigma that that this is like heroin or something but it to focus on this guy you know he was probably an inmate at a penitentiary and let's not forget they have a lot of time to kill yes tattoos can be addictive people use them for therapy they call it ink therapy put him
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up please did you just say ink therapy what is that ink therapy yeah
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that's that's that's a phrase that's been bouncing around especially in the winter months right a lot of people get seasonal depression people come in for a little ink therapy or they're going through some stress in their life maybe a divorce or something maybe they lost a loved one a parent they come in for
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some therapy hmm never heard that you just taught me something new so darren if we believe that he has the wrist tattoo which is part of a sleeve why stop there ergo it follows that he would have a neck tattoo and even more do you agree with that that's who we're looking for that's why i care about this guy's tattoo
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i agree one hundred percent i mean eighty two degrees and he's wearing his hooded mask he's got tattoos on his neck most likely you know on the edges of his face this is the kind of southwestern state gangs they love getting heavily covered in black and gray
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style tattoos so in your experience to nail this point down thirty plus years darren the dude rosa once you start with the wrist the wrist is part of a bigger tattoo which would be the sleeve that's why they call it a sleeve it's like a sleeve of your shirt or jacket it's like a shirt the hand is covered could indicate part of the hand if you look at the picture again control room you don't see it ending as it goes down into the glove does that signify a hand tattoo in your experience does that suggest to you that he would have another sleeve on the other arm and possibly the neck that's a simple yes no absolutely yes okay let's move from that so we're looking for a guy from this region exposed to the sun potential gang connections with a full sleeve and hand possibly two two sleeves and neck now is it your experience that people that get tattoos first get their dominant hand tattooed or their other hand non dominant which one do they
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typically tattoo first right a lot of right handed people will start with their left arm so if this guy has his right arm and it looks like he's right handed because every time he goes up to that ring camera he starts off with his right arm that's my own little analysis of his actions he starts with his right and then his left is kind of helping him so i would say he's fully sleeved on his left arm and then he got his right arm done because this is what most people that have come into my studio do so he's right
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handed so he would have typically start with tats on the left and then go to the right so that tells me i can assume that he has two sleeves and at least one hand and possibly the neck okay you have stated repeatedly references to jail tats now they're called jail tats but i believe this tattoo is not a jail tat because in my to my untrained eye after all the years i have investigated and prosecuted defendants jail tats don't look good they're very crude this tat is not crude it's very refined so why do you refer to jail tats some
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of these inmates who spend a lot of time in jail they develop sophisticated networks with the guards with the staff these days it's very easy to smuggle in the machines have gotten smaller compact more sophisticated it's my belief that he got this while incarcerated and the level of sophistication has become exponential even in populations that are incarcerated would inmates let's
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say in the penn penitentiary a ci correctional institute would they have access to multiple needles or do they go single needle
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well like i said the machines have become very sophisticated they've become compact we now have a system that uses cartridges that lock into the pen like apparatus it would be very easy these these needles are about an inch and a half it would be very easy for them to obtain a single needle for the upline and a cluster of needles for the shading
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and when we're talking about jailhouse tats here's my thinking if you're in a jail think of andy of mayberry you're there for a brief period of time because you have been sentenced to a misdemeanor and they just keep you in the county jail because you're going to be out like that there's no use in putting you in the system it takes forever or you're awaiting trial or a court date once you're sentenced or you have a long wait for trial such as epstein you go into a bigger facility and sometimes a ci correctional institute but those people are typically sentenced and doing a long stint why do i care because if this guy was in a ci to get that tattoo that means he he's got a record so now i've got a guy from the southwest region that spends a lot of time in the sun that got black and gray work likely has two full sleeves and more and has done jail time okay isn't it true darren the dude rosa that at your tattoo parlor rising dragon you have for instance a catalog or a series of tattoos that your customers can look at and pick out a
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tattoo isn't that true we do but i would dare say that these people are not flipping catalogs they're going off the cuff and an artist kind of gains credit by being able to do
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sophisticated custom work ah so custom work that they envision and they say hey this is what i want now you create it would you agree that once you start with tats very often you stick with the same tattoo artist and with tattoos of this magnitude you would remember doing it absolutely absolutely have you ever been approached by law enforcement to
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identify a tattoo yes i have about twenty thirty years ago i was approached by fbi they were trying to identify some of the victims which happened to
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be
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prostitutes or we could say sex workers this specific killer serial killer the police had pulled over him in his pickup truck they found a decapitated body which led them to more in the far rockaway brooklyn area but my studio in manhattan was one of the prevalent studios so they came to me to see if i could identify any of these women
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could you
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i did not recognize the particular tattoos although another artist i felt it was more his style
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interesting and here is the million dollar question let me rephrase the one point two plus million dollar question you've looked at the sliver of tattoo what do you think it is is it a cross is it a flower is it a demon is it a dragon is it a creature like you've got on your neck what is it well we
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we can tell it's not geometric it's it's kind of wavy lines the prevalent type of imagery these people get catholic imagery memorials to deceased gang members or family members most likely it's saints clouds roses these kind of images that memorialize family members or gang members who become like family members to these people
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i'm
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get a commercial auto insurance quote today at geico dot com and see how much you could save it feels good
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to geico crime stories with nancy grace with me darren the dude rosa thirty years in the business at rising dragon tattoos new york city also joining us special guest jeffrey gentry jeffrey gentry forensic certified hold on i don't want to put all the stuff about blood pattern jeffrey gentry certified forensics expert with a certain expertise in in tattoos author of forensic science applications to death and crime scene investigation and more jeffrey thank you for being with us now that you have soaked in everything that rosa had to say as well as studied the tattoo sliver i want to hear all
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your thoughts you came to the right forensic analyst nancy i love tattoos first of all i usually am on the show with long sleeve shirt and tie for that very reason so if you look at my arms i've got little dead bodies chalk outlines i've got dinosaurs i've got dna all up and down my arms i've got jurassic park a little bit of everything crime scene tape around my wrist and my tattoos are very special to me it's things that i enjoy things that are personal about my life but you notice that my tattoos end a couple of inches above my wrist and i do that for a very specific reason i don't have any on my neck i don't have any on my wrist and that's because when i go into a courtroom or when i'm out of a crime scene i want to appear more professional so when you when you start looking at tattoos that are lower down on the hands and wrist you start thinking about the people that get these tattoos and they are people like your tattoo artist said provided excellent information by the way they might have been in prison they might be parts of gangs they are most likely not testifying as a professional in court so that's more of the like the psychiatric analysis or the behavioral analysis just figuring out what type of person might have this tattoo now you then have to create a link from identifying the type of person that has the tattoo to the specific person that has a tattoo and this tattoo being visible now can provide you a forensic link or a positive id on not only a person but connecting them to this crime scene and so you have to think about how are you going to figure out first of all what this tattoo is and then how are you going to identify this person and i think you're on the right track with talking to tattoo artists like your guests because those are the people that are going to be able to identify these specific unique tattoos i have personally investigated cases where as a death investigator i have identified bodies with tattoos and you have to get a little creative one case that i had in particular it was a man that was found out in a river and he'd been in the river for i don't remember if it was days or weeks but his body was severely decomposed but he had a really unique tattoo on his body and so during the death investigation we were not able to identify fingerprints we couldn't identify this person with dental records so what i did is i took pictures of this unique tattoo and put it out in the news and literally within a couple of hours you had family calling and saying that they believe that that was their relative that was found so that's the first step is trying to figure out who this person is who they possibly are but then the second part is physically matching that tattoo up with the person and so there's a lot of different resources available especially now with ai and all these online search engines so you would want to enhance the tattoo photograph as much as possible put it into some kind of photograph recognition software and generate some leads the other option is like we talked about putting it out in social media your guests your viewers all of the people that are interested in this case are going to be a tremendous resource because i might see it as maybe being a snake or a skull or part of a name but your tattoo artist or one of your guests who does a lot of research might see it as something completely different and so we have to start generating leads and it's going to come from the public and people that are familiar with tattoos like like your tattoo artist most tattoo artists have a specific style like your guest talked about so i would get this tattoo photograph out to as many local tattoo artists as possible and see what they can tell you every little going to help and then social media tiktok youtube facebook get those tattoo pictures out there and see what see what people can come up with because once you have some leads and you can then start narrowing down suspects also anytime somebody is contacted by the police whether it be an arrest or just a contact police are generally going to document tattoo information and it's going to be very general when it's documented in police records but you can search that i've identified victims of crimes and and deceased people with just basic tattoo information and i've done so very quickly out at crime scenes so if it's visible on hand like say for example the police made contact with this person in the past if it's visible on the hand that should be documented somewhere
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in police records absolutely based on the gang database information not only with the feds and of course tag tattoo and graffiti subspecialties a very elite crew within the fbi at quantico that analyzes not only graffiti but more often tattoos and that is put in a data bank even arizona the state has a gang and tattoo data bank right now the fbi doing much of what gentry is describing for us tonight
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hi there everybody i wanted to come on and just share a few thoughts as we
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enter
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into another week of this nightmare
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i
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just want to say first of all thank you so much for all of the prayers and the love that we have felt my sister and brother and
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i
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and that our mom has felt because we believe that somehow some way she is feeling these prayers and that god is lifting her even in this moment and in this darkest place
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we
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believe our mom is still out there we need your help law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to bring her home trying to find her she was taken and we don't know
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where
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and we need your help
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so
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i'm coming on just to ask you not just for your prayers but no matter where you are even if you're far from tucson if you see anything you hear anything if there's anything at all that seems strange to you that you report to law enforcement we are at an hour of desperation and we
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need your help also in addition to a team of experts analyzing the tattoo the behavioral body language of the porch guy and more reams of video is being analyzed and categorized now we see pima county sheriffs begging the public for help take a look at what they have posted it says it is an urgent request for all neighbors and people in the area not necessarily just neighbors we saw what happened when the radius was limited to just two miles a glove popped up beyond two miles and video has popped up that could be significant pima county sheriff's department evidence submission portal dave mack crime stories investigative reporter
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what is it a new website created specifically for the public to send in their video the security video from nest cameras ring cameras any video any pictures they have it's been mentioned that in the neighborhood where this took place we have some senior citizens that might not be as adept with electronics and transferring video this makes it very very simple they click one but and can upload their video so the law enforcement investigators can actually see video for the first time in some cases that might lead to a solution
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straight out to scott eicher joining us digital forensics expert founding member of the fbi cellular analysis survey team on the homicide squad at norfolk virginia for over a decade now with precision cellular analysis you're seeing this video supplied to us by our friends at fox scott eicher what do you make of the plea and we have seen at first nano stated that the video we were just showing scott of the cars racing by around the time that nancy goes missing that that was unrelated and didn't matter now it turns out to be one of the single most important pieces of evidence next to the porch guy video now an urgent request for video submissions what do you make of it scott eicher as the investigation continues and kind of morphs one way
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or the other you start wondering wanting
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to get video from several different aspects now we have the cars going by the cactus there and made it in the night around the time she went
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missing now they're going to expand out further saying hey we want more video in this area the more the better
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right i mean if it's not related we'll figure that out later but please
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get us the video now so it
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doesn't get lost before it's overwritten so
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we can have that data and use
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it later on when we need it also joining us in addition to scott eicher former fed with the fbi is brian fitzgibbons fitzgibbons is director of operations at uspa nationwide security that leads a team of investigators around the world including extractions from mexico in finding missing people former marine iraqi war vet i want to talk to you about video submissions and how they have cracked cases in the past fitzgibbons first of all just off the top of my head is brian kohberger after four students were killed a clerk at a local gas station convenience store took it upon herself to wade through hours of video she sees a white elantra speed by the intersection which was near the king road address one of the only ways to get to it i might add she gets it she tells law enforcement and they first become aware of a white elantra they put out the word white elantra to all local law enforcement including washington state university pullman the campus security go through their records who's registered here with a white elantra and the name brian kohberger pops up for the first time then this neighborhood surveillance video catches the white elantra at least seven times circling the area bam busted then of course there is the case of the so called glam yoga instructor caitlin armstrong there is her suv circling the murder scene before she goes in and murders her love rival a world champion dirt bike racer a woman who armstrong suspected of stealing her boyfriend completely untrue but dead body she's caught on surveillance video then of course we have to mention molly tibbets a beautiful young co ed studied all day goes out for a jog when she is approached by a dark colored suv that keeps following her when she threatens to call nine hundred eleven the perp kills her and throws her body in a cornfield he's identified through distinct markings on the side of his vehicle what do you make fitzgibbons of the pima county sheriff's now urgent request for residents neighbors and more to submit their video
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yeah first i'll say that that website the portal they have is perfect it's very simple and easy for anybody to upload their video and scott eicher hit the nail on the head time is of the essence right now anybody in that greater tucson area that has any video on or around the date that nancy disappeared it's important that they get to this site and upload it and let the let the experts let the analysts go through it and figure out if it's if it's valuable or not but anything on or about that time of her disappearance could potentially have value and could potentially help break
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the case doctor bethany marshall joining us renowned psychoanalyst out of the california jurisdiction you can see her on peacock she is the author of deal breakers and you can find her at dr bethanymarshall dot com doctor bethany marshall the fbi and local law enforcement has kept close to the vest the ransom notes i'm not sure why but it seems to me that a lot could be gleaned from the ransom notes and let me just throw out the example of ted kaczynski the unabomber his manifesto remember it was finally published in the new york times once it was published and he terrorized our country for decades murder meant nothing to him his brother recognized certain vernacular phrases phraseology in the manifesto and said that's got to be my brother for pete's sake then there's btk buy and torture kill dennis raider he taunted the oh my goodness there he is dressed up in the victim's clothing freak he taunted law enforcement and media with these typewritten notes idiot of course the typewriter can be tracked back to a certain typewriter even not just with the keys with an older model but with a ball type such as found on the ibm selectra you can get it from the ribbon in a selectra so the use of a typewriter in our case the use of email the content of those ransom letters could tell me a lot this video from our friends at ibm and of course there's jonbenet ramsey for pete's sake who says hints who do you know except me occasionally that uses the word hints hints that's what the ransom letter said so why are they keeping it close to the vest and what can we learn from the ransom letter doctor bethany you know
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nancy those ransom notes are a treasure trove of information for instance the btk killer was a very rigid regimented guy remember he was a local dog catcher he would measure everybody's grass on their lawns to make sure it didn't grow too much and the way he wrote the typewritten ransom note reflects those characteristics because it's very rigid very small type but moving on to nancy guthrie it can tell us what the intent or the motivation of the kidnap is for instance if the motivation is simply money then the ransom note is going to be fairly short with very detailed information about how to submit to send the money however if it's more like a a kidnap because somebody is stalking nancy because they're obsessed with her they're obsessed with savannah or maybe one of the other siblings then there's going to be more of a manifesto type quality these people stalkers love to write about it they love to talk about it so in this case we see somebody putting a lot of information into that ransom note nancy there are also what i call affectations these are verbal flourishes that people use to make what they're talking about appear way more important than it really is and i tend to think of criminals as being rather narcissistic shallow empty people who have to prop themselves up so they would be more likely to use an affectation like maybe the misuse of a big word that makes them feel like they're very smart and they misuse that word all the time so and the public is going to be fascinated one other quick thing nancy it's important to know what the writer of the note saw in nancy guthrie's room that could be verified because is it something that any kidnapper would see like a kidnap for ransom or is it something that a stalker would see like maybe a family photograph or maybe i hate to say it a pair of underwear a pair of stockings something highly personal that the kidnapper would want to have control over in order to gain proximity to the victim bethany point
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well taken the video we were just showing is from our friends at to the today show to brian fitzgibbons what do you make of law enforcement holding onto the ransom notes and remember there were threats to nancy guthrie in there now one theory is that the description of the inside of her home was given because they could no longer offer proof of life they could not send a photo or a video of nancy guthrie to show proof of life that's one train of thought but there were threats against nancy and details regarding the inside of her home so why not release the ransom notes fitzgibbons you've got
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a theory yeah so first of all the fbi doesn't do things because they have nothing to lose they do things when they have something to gain and in this case i believe we do know quite a bit about the ransom notes that were sent to the media outlets that they were delivered via email they were not that long the writing wasn't that long and similar to ted kaczynski his manifesto released by the fbi in nineteen ninety five had over thirty five thousand words so the fbi was very confident in that case that someone might be able to identify his ideology his writing style things that he was saying in that long detailed manifesto in in jonbenet ramsey's case this was a handwritten letter okay that someone may be able to identify the handwriting the the way that words join together so i think in this case it's it's that the fbi has determined that they don't have anything to gain there may be a chance that copycat demands are sent out if that's released and that it distracts from the momentum of the case
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joining us now jeffrey gentry forensic certified analyst with quite the expertise with law enforcement and tattoos obviously but jeff what do you make of them refusing to release his ransom note or any of them providing they are in fact connected
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a lot of times when there is a police investigation and there is something specific that the police do not want to release it's usually because it's unique and it can be a unique identifier of this suspect so say for example the suspect mentioned something that nobody else would know or nobody else would say you don't want to just release that information to the public because then everybody's going to know it so when they start questioning this suspect when they catch them they want to be able to ask them about this specific information that maybe no one else would say or nobody else would be able to identify that way they can know that they have the right person so there's usually a reason that you don't release this information to the public and that's usually why you want to have something in your pocket to be able to ask these people that is going to trigger a reaction and be able to use be used as a unique identifier when they apprehend this suspect that that's my theory on why they're not releasing this information to the public because they have something specific that they're going to be able to use to identify this suspect
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when they catch them an elite squad at quantico the fbi trying to create a shoe cast this as we learn the fbi has returned to a particular restaurant to reinterrogate restaurant employees and what about the possibility of retinal scanning of the porch guy and this as apb all points bulletin on a male trying to have a full sleeve removed a full sleeve sleeve tattoo removed good evening i'm nancy grace this is crime stories i want to thank you for being with us maybe the stalker did glean a lot but what evidence did the perp i'm not convinced he's a stalker of nancy guthrie i think that he is a con trying to make a quick dollar or million what clues did he unwittingly leave behind we have analyzed him from the top of his head to the soles off his shoes enter professor forensics jacksonville state university joseph scott morgan death investigator author of blood beneath my feet on amazon and star of a hit podcast series body bags with joseph scott morgan i was concerned about any possibility of a shoe print because the walkway to nancy guthrie's home if we could see that i believe is gravel but let's start with a and end at z what is a shoe cast and what is electromagnetic lifting okay
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G
there's any number of ways to raise a shoe print if you will traditionally what we think of and we still do this nancy if you think about a foot going into a soft malleable surface like mud soft dirt even sand you leave behind an impression okay and we can cast that we can put dental stone in there let it dry pull it out and you have this image of the shoe print here we have an example for instance of an electrostatic lift this is completely different this is where we put down a charged sheet of mylar and it actually goes over an area where there is a suspected print that's generally left in soil or dust that's not really you're not able to see it with the unaided eye very well but what it does is that there is a magnetic charge and that lifts that print off of that surface and you can pull it up and you can actually examine it here we have an example of an electrostatic lift being conducted just yesterday at jacksonville state and for my money in this particular case nancy i'm leaning more into the electrostatic lift here because you don't have a lot of soft mud around there or soft dirt that you're going through but even if you look at that porch nancy look at that porch those are tiles out there now there would be a myriad of prints out there but what if they went in there and actually did electrostatic lifts there and also if they can determine where the point of entry is in this house go to the interior of the house and do those lifts there if there's an area around her bed where you've got kind of a smooth non porous or less than porous surface like ceramic tile there which a lot of houses in the southwest have you do that around her bed you see if there's any kind of weird weird prints that are there like a man's sneaker imprint that's left and that is possible you can do that i just hope it's not too late i hope that they protected that scene initially but i got to tell you hope's dimming
- [47:43]
B
as far as i'm concerned jo scott morgan don't you remember at the get go where anybody and their little sister could walk up to the front porch and take photos because nanos did not secure the scene not once but twice did not secure the scene ghouls were going up and taking photos of nancy guthrie's blood on the front porch this is from our friends at kold and as a matter of fact someone tried to deliver a pizza to the crime scene that's how unprotected it was how is that going to affect any hope
- [48:16]
G
of a she cast tremendously as you know as an attorney nancy once you take that tape down it is open season at that point any attorney worth their salt can argue hey look anything can be planted in there you want to know real big evidence of this and the carelessness that was taken with the scene i'll always go back to this is when you see that blood deposition position on the on the surface of that portico area there nancy the one thing you always see and you even see the perp standing on it right there look at that look at that standing on that mat nancy we saw images of that mat adjacent to the blood they did not collect that mat the first time out you know i sit there and i think about does your mind work you know that's that's that's crime scene one hundred and one why was not the mat collected at that point in time because you have any number of things that could be transferred onto that service i hope somebody went back and collected it but once you've taken the guard the guardrails down at that point in time it's open anybody can walk up and take a photo anybody it can be argued in court that you can plant stuff at that point in time it is paramount that you protect that scene and there's just by virtue of the fact that you did not value that mat any more than they obviously didn't then you're at risk here from losing valuable evidence and anybody can have access to it any lawyer worth their salt can say yeah stuff was planted they secured it they took the tape down lord only knows who got in there what
- [49:51]
B
is an electrostatic lift okay so what
- [49:55]
G
you're doing with this this sheet of mylar is that you're actually placing a charge on that sheet okay and as you place that charge on there what happens is it attracts it attracts the underlying dust particles lifts it onto that sheet and boom it's permanently there okay so you for and this is the beauty of it for a moment for a moment you have frozen in time that image of that shoe impression that's there now here's the trick can you take that image that you've frozen on that sheet okay and take it back and compare it well can you profile that footprint like can someone that is a footprint expert say okay we're looking for somebody that pronates supinates can we categorize the shoe print can we say okay this manufacturer created this sole okay and you can say whatever manufacturer you know insert company there all right and if you can begin and again as you know nancy with investigations it's a big investigative funnel you want to try to narrow narrow narrow narrow at all times we want to try to exclude as much stuff as we more stuff we want to try to exclude as much as we possibly can to narrow our field can they take images for instance of those shoes that we see right here captured at the scene in the still shots and can they profile those shoes and say okay this is the manufacturer of those shoes automatically you've narrowed your field and can you say if you do the electrostatic lift can you say is it a possibility is it a possibility that that particular brand of shoe could leave this kind of impression well now you have really you know kind of fine tuned your target area at this point in time the trick now is to find out who belongs to those shoes who was wearing those shoes at that point
- [51:46]
B
i know it works in a lab but given the fact that the general public could go right up onto her porch and how many people from the sheriff's office were in and out of the home on the interior i don't know that we can get this type of evidence there's still a chance straight out to dave mack joining us crime stories investigative reporter what can you tell me about re emerging video of the interior of nancy guthrie's bedroom which i'd like to point out has a window right there on ground level you can look right into and see her bedroom the layout everything how close her bed is to the door the window the works what is this dave mack what you're seeing
- [52:34]
C
is when the today shows went they were trying to show the closeness of savannah guthrie with her mom nancy and showing this side of nancy guthrie the mom showing how she taught savannah to make a bed and that's why you see her doing the corners there but what it this was done in an effort to you know make it more personable and connecting with their audience but what it's showing is that is her bedroom nancy guthrie's bedroom and she's been in this home since the nineties she's been in the same bedroom same layout ever since so as you pointed out the window is right there we are looking at savannah guthrie's mom nancy guthrie in the room with the bed might be pulled out of the night she
- [53:23]
B
was kidnapped and we see what she keeps on her bedside table and more hey dave mack megyn kelly found this and brought it to everyone's attention when was that taken when was that shoot from our friends at today with misses
- [53:40]
C
guthrie it was in twenty thirteen
- [53:45]
B
because i started to say she's getting around really well and does not seem to have any mobility issue but you know many years have passed since then let's take a look at that video again because whoever searched savannah guthrie's salary and nancy guthrie's home address may very well have pulled up video just like this what clues can we glean from this video a lot a lot from our friends at today to joseph scott morgan professor of forensics what do you learn
- [54:21]
G
from this just looking well you look at the nature of the flooring and it's really hard to kind of kind of pick up and and try to understand it has it changed over that period of time is it a smooth kind of semi porous floor that we could go in and collect anything relative to shoe prints you know one of the things that you begin to think about is that folks were saying that she was taken from her bedroom first off i don't understand how they source that information particularly but it's certainly because
- [54:52]
B
savannah said it in one of her her pleas she said my mom was taken out of her bed well you
- [54:59]
G
have to take that you have to take that and utilize that as and i'm sure that they already have because if she's saying that that that's rooted somewhere factually so you're going to look at any kind of physical evidence that might be associated with an outside party that's there and it could be anything from dusty prints that are left behind by shoes it could be any kind of trace evidence any kind of fiber evidence where they're putting hands on somebody
- [55:24]
B
to move them around we also see that bedspread if she still has the same one and obviously an m vac would have to be used on that it is a porous material to get potential dna straight out to brian fitzgibbons joining us he is director operations usp a nationwide security leading a team of investigators that specialize in missing people and go around the world finding them rescuing them particularly he has an expertise in extractions from mexico he is a former marine and iraqi war vet brian fitzgibbons i can learn a lot from that video and so could anybody including the
- [56:07]
F
perp yeah certainly and we see that the perp would have access to this readily online you know is he looking to see are there camera locations inside of the house are there avenues of entry or egress in that room and all of this should be caveated with the fact that there was incredible amount of tension drawn to misses guthrie with savannah's visit and the visit to that restaurant that the fbi is now conducting interviews again with restaurant staff
- [56:45]
B
at some point he reaches up to dismantle or
- [56:49]
D
up the door can i see black and gray work i can see some subtle shading on the edges and when
- [56:57]
B
he does that much is revealed joining us now a special guest jeff garnett co founder inkless tattoo removal centers inklesstattooremoval dot com jeff i know that you like me have studied carefully the porch guy's wrist tattoo got a question for you jeff have you ever been asked by a perpetrator to remove a tattoo
- [57:32]
J
yes actually we have we didn't know at the time that it was a perpetrator but in in twenty twenty one there was a shooting death outside of a famous hotel in manhattan and it was all caught on surveillance camera the perpetrator was his picture was shown on the news and everyone kept commenting on the fact that he had these full tattoo sleeves later the following week a detective came in and questioned us because they had arrested them and they found our aftercare instructions in his car so what had happened is the shooting had happened i think on a on a thursday it was all over the news the following morning and that friday he came into one of our locations trying to get his sleeves removed so we didn't know at the time but they were able to show that that was his attempt to cover up the identifying
- [58:32]
B
marks so the video caught him with two full sleeves yes wow okay and in his car they found your aftercare instructions okay how long would it take to remove a full sleeve jeff garnett
- [58:51]
J
it takes a long time it's not an instant thing where you come in and laser it and it's gone instantly we would all love for the technology to get there but we're not quite there at this point probably at least a year there are a lot of variables different in colors different ink saturation levels locations on the body how healthy someone's immune system is these are all factors that can impact it but basically the laser is breaking the ink into microscopic particles that are much easier for your immune system to remove so we're pretty much just speeding up the natural fading process when i started doing this fifteen years ago it would have easily taken three years with the newer pico technology it's cut that in half but it's still a year to a year
- [59:40]
B
and a half bolo be on the lookout for a male trying to have two full sleeves or at least one full sleeve out of the catalina hills area removed back to jeff garnett joining us co founder inkless tattoo removal centers so it takes a long time to finally get a full sleeve removed could you rush it if someone said i've got to have this thing off in forty eight hours could you do it is it physically possible not with laser
- [60:16]
J
technology the only way to do it instantly would be a surgical procedure called excision where they would have to cut it out and if that was a small tattoo they'd be able to cut it out and it would be replaced with a scar and that would be done by a plastic surgeon if you're talking about a full sleeve it would get into skin grafts it just wouldn't be possible laser technology can remove that but it's going to take a long time now we're assuming the perp has a sleeve because you're seeing that wrist portion and it looks as if it's part of a much larger tattoo could that small portion be cut out surgically yes it could but there would definitely be a large scar in the place
- [61:01]
B
once you have the tattoo completely removed are there any traces left behind you have an example on your neck correct
- [61:11]
J
yes i used to have a tattoo right here and there's nothing there's no scar tissue there's no shadow or skin discoloration it you know it depends there's certain ink colors are easier to remove than others but it looks to me like this is a black tattoo black ink tattoo and black ink responds really well to the laser black absorbs the full spectrum of light from the laser so usually black ink can be removed
- [61:41]
B
completely it's a black and gray which of course is just variations on black so you're absolutely correct i'm just curious what was the tattoo you had removed
- [61:51]
J
it was a bat it was a silly bat hanging upside down behind my
- [61:55]
B
head a bat as in the bat that flies out of a cave and jumps in your hair and tries to bite you correct okay why did you have a bat on your neck
- [62:07]
D
a
- [62:07]
J
lot of my tattoos are kind of timestamps of different parts of my life and i had moved temporarily to austin texas and there's a bridge in austin that has about a million bats that live underneath it and at dust they all come flying out so that was kind of my austin texas tattoo okay
- [62:27]
B
i'm not a shrink i can't analyze that i'll just take it for what it is for the probative value but why do other people have tattoos removed typically
- [62:39]
J
there's a wide range of purposes sometimes people get a tattoo and don't like the way it came out so they almost immediately want to get rid of it there's the stereotypical boyfriend and girlfriend get each other's names and then break up there's the most common one is people just outgrow it you know you get something in your teens or twenties and then in your thirties and forties your your tastes change and you're a different person but there also are some really more psychological reasons as well you have really sad things like victims of human trafficking that have property of tattoos and that's some of the things that we do pro bono for people you have radiation tattoos for people cancer survivors from when they had their procedures so there there really is a wide range but the majority of the clients we see got something when they were younger they've outgrown it and their tastes have changed and they're just
- [63:42]
B
crime stories with nancy grace jeff garnett is joining us he is the co founder of inkless tattoo removal centers with multiple branches be on the lookout please jeff garnett full sleeve removal that said this leads me to another process that process being ai used to create a ransom note but first before i get into that with christian hammond from northwestern university dave mack what can you tell me about the last forty eight hours where the fbi descends upon a mexican restaurant to reinterrogate employees a full two days of
- [64:29]
C
reinterrogation nancy guthrie and savannah guthrie went out to dinner back in november when the today show came to town and was filming savannah back in tucson they went to el charro which is their favorite mexican restaurant well the fbi has been back interviewing employees of the restaurant specifically asking them if they noticed anyone standing around maybe trying to ingratiate themselves with the cast and crew anybody that acted weird they were asking those types of questions of all of the employees in the el charo trying to determine if anyone was there that shouldn't have been or was acting inappropriately while they
- [65:13]
B
were there from our friends at today you know i'm very curious about their line of questioning to these restaurant employees if they saw anyone there that day that was unusual if anyone hung around you know to brian fitzgibbons joining us director of operations uspa nationwide security that must have been a memorable day for a lot of people to have a big star like savannah guthrie roll in very memorable so it's not just the employees they're going to be questioned about other people that were there that day to watch the filming i guarantee fitzgibbons they're going to be asking does anybody have a son a black sheep son does anybody have a bad seed brother in law or son in law or cousin where the mom comes home and says hey guess what happened today savannah guthrie was there with her mother or guess what's going to happen tomorrow and what i want to do with that bride fitzgibbons is overlay it onto that google trend search where someone thought to question savannah guthrie's salary and in the same search the home address for nancy guthrie and then connect that person to someone we may find out about through the restaurant employees
- [66:40]
F
certainly a focus of those questions is going to be who did you tell about this did you text anybody did you call anybody am i able to look at that text to see who how did they respond right it may not be that they're focused solely on that restaurant employee but who's on their periphery who's in their circle that they told about this event and they told about miss guthrie living in tucson being connected to savannah so
- [67:09]
B
it's not just limited to the employees it's who they know who they're related to who may have been in the restaurant at that time the line of questioning i'm very curious about what that is what it means what we can glean from the fbi spending not one but two full days at the restaurant so we believe well there are two restaurants in play that we know of right now of course this is us on the outside looking in brian there is the restaurant connected to that glove that was found about two miles from nancy guthrie's home the glove was connected back to a restaurant employee and that employee was cleared there's that restaurant and there is the restaurant at which nancy guthrie and savannah guthrie let's see that video had the arizona homecoming where savannah went back home and she was with her family they went to their favorite restaurant they spent time in misses guthrie's home which restaurant are we talking about
- [68:17]
F
brian we're talking about this restaurant that you see here and you have to remember this isn't hollywood right this is tucson arizona so you have a film crew savannah guthrie a nationally recognized tv show host rolls into this restaurant this would be quite an event for that restaurant and the people there and i think it's important to mention it's unlikely that it was happenstance that an abductor happened to be in the restaurant that day you know and saw misses guthrie the most likely scenario is that somebody who was there be it staff or a guest actually communicated about hey i saw savannah guthrie with her mother at this restaurant another thing that law enforcement is undoubtedly doing is looking at the checks from that day who else was in the restaurant who paid with a credit card what information does the restaurant have about the other guests and then they're going to go out that that one additional layer and start asking everybody who was there who they communicated with
- [69:23]
B
about this another possibility brian fitzgibbons is surveillance video if it can be pulled down from the cloud of what was happening in the parking lot if they're let's just go with me on this we know we have that video from a neighbor of cars zipping by around the time that nancy guthrie's pacemaker stopped connecting to the bluetooth in her home you know two three o' clock in the morning there are people heading back and forth toward her home toward that street this is from our friends at fox news by the way we too
- [70:00]
A
have heard the reports about a ransom letter in the media as a family we are doing everything that we can we are ready to talk
- [70:16]
B
joining me now christian hammond artificial intelligence expert he is a professor of computer science at northwestern university again not shabby christian director of the center for advancing safety of machine intelligence christian thank you for being with us what i'm getting at is i'm narrowing down who i'm looking for i'm looking for a guy what do we say jackie between five nine and six feet five nine five ten at least one sleeve one full sleeve likely two full sleeves i'm looking for someone that has that ozark backpack i'm looking for that receipt i'm looking for someone from the tucson area because they have a soft spot for two tucson tv networks that maybe they grew up watching i'm looking for someone that has a knowledge of nancy guthrie and her home maybe maybe connected in some tenuous way not necessarily an employee of that mexican restaurant i believe we're looking for someone that may have a criminal record and now i'm looking for someone that may have conducted that google search we talked about early on that looked for nancy guthrie's home address and savannah guthrie's salary okay that's a lot of data christian hammond think about the ransom note could the perp if the ransom note is in fact connected have used ai artificial intelligence to disguise their identity
- [72:14]
H
well certainly i mean the the power of the power of the language models is that you can have them say something that you want to say but in a tone and in a in a cadence of words that is not yours and so you can certainly disguise yourself that way and you'll leave a little bit of a trace in doing so but that trace is so minute and is so washed out in terms of all the other activity that's going on that it's it wouldn't be it wouldn't be you wouldn't be able to find it
- [72:45]
B
and so yes okay christian we established earlier that year you know light years ahead of all of us mere mortals when it comes to this i heard you i know what all those words mean but in the context of your sentence i don't know what you're saying you're telling me that google can look through trillions of data points and they can find nancy guthrie's door cam and they can resurrect like lazarus video footage we thought didn't even exist well we listened to nanos that was our first mistake but that said and we can't put all of these facts together and come up with that artificial intelligence request
- [73:37]
H
yeah so finding the images is a targeted task that is they know where they should be looking they know the features that are really important there and that really gives them a lot of constraints in terms of what they're looking for but when you're looking for an arbitrary query against a language model where there are dozens of language models some of them are local some of them anyone can use finding a tiny little piece of a request is an untenable i mean there's too much to search and in the midst of all this there might be other people who are going i wonder what it's like i wonder if you could generate a ransom note and so they're generating them and we will find them as well and so we're really in a place where there's not enough focus in terms of what we're looking for to find the right thing and i think it's actually in the movie in the movie about turing and all of the work he did in terms of decrypting there was a moment where once he identified a target that they knew they were looking for a particular thing in a particular message that gave them the ability to figure out what was going on but if you don't have a target it's incredibly difficult to find the right thing at the right time that gives you
- [75:10]
B
the right kind of information okay christian hammond you are the artificial intelligence expert in a perfect world what would i need to track down that ai request
- [75:24]
H
to write the ransom note well a perfect world would be that we would be able to take a look at all the logs of all the interactions trivially but that's a perfect world in terms of one thing and that's finding stuff but it's not a perfect world in terms of privacy in terms of data leakage in terms of feeling like i've been using a system and i'm not telling it my entire life and that life will be shared with everyone so there have always been privacy issues so even with the finding the finding the images associated with this particular particular camera there were privacy issues that is that she didn't have a subscription and so they should not have been holding on to anything but they were getting to the all the camera all the footage associated with the cameras in her neighborhood that's a privacy issue that is that unless you've signed off for your camera to be used you can't use it and so there's always this okay
- [76:24]
B
i understand so there really is no perfect world in finding that ai request okay let me ask you this many people have suggested there's a possibility of doing a retinal scan on the ports guy there's some great shots of his eyes what do you make of that
- [76:40]
H
let's see the shots yeah the problem is that they're good but they're not magnificent so retinal scans usually are done using infrared light to begin with and they're marvelous i mean they're incredibly powerful in terms of being able to identify individuals but you need that as the target that is if i've got a new if i got a new image and i could get a retinal scan out of it i have to have a thing to match it against and we we don't really have that the other thing is that in these so
- [77:17]
B
even if there was enough data christian to get the retinal scan and you're saying it's just beyond enhancing it from those images we have to have something to compare it to like fingerprints you may have a great fingerprint but you got to have somebody to compare it
- [77:34]
H
to so he could leave fingerprints and dna and footprints and all sorts of things but if they're not if there's not a target for us to match them against it doesn't help us unless we have him in hand okay christian
- [77:48]
B
hammond i want you to go back to your think tank at northwestern university and come up with some answers for me christian hammond jeff garnett brian fitzgibbons joe scott morgan and dave mack thank you for being with us everyone if you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of nancy guthrie please dial toll free eight hundred two two five five three two four to remain anonymous five two zero eight eight two seven four six three there is a one point two plus million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of nancy guthrie arrest conviction not required we wait as justice unfolds goodbye