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- [00:00]
Nancy Grace
This is an I Heart podcast, Guaranteed.
- [00:03]
Human crime stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother. Missing day five. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us in the last hours. A presser from local law enforcement. This following literally a heartbreaking plea from Savannah, her sister Annie, and brother Cameron, all three looking exhausted, bone weary. We'll play that back for you in full in just a moment. But first to the latest. I want you to hear what the sheriff said in the last hours.
- [00:50]
Dave Mack
I'll go over it with you. You can see it on the board there. But at about 5:32pm these are approximate times. 5:32pm Nancy travels to her local family's home for dinner and playing games with the family just visiting at 9:48pm which is very consistent to what we were told by the family, that Nancy was dropped off at home. And we know that because we have a garage door open at approximately. I can't stress that enough. At approximately 9:48pm at 9:50pm that garage door closes because that time we assume that Nancy's home and probably going to bed. Sunday morning, early morning at 1:47am the doorbell camera disconnects. At 2:12am Software detects a person on a camera. But there's no video available. They had no subscription and therefore it would rewrite itself. Kind of. It just kind of loops, right, and covers up. That's what our analysis teams have told us. We're not done with that. We'll do all we can. But that's what it says. Detects a person on camera. Could that be an animal? I imagine that's possible. We don't know that. We just have no video. Well, we're not giving up on that. 228, Nancy's pacemaker app shows that it was a disconnect from the phone. And at 11:56am the family checks on Nancy, discovers her missing. And at 12:03pm, 911 has called in to the Pima County Sheriff's Department.
- [02:44]
Nancy Grace
What are we learning? 9:48, the garage door opens. 9:50, it closes. Door cam disconnects. 1:47. So 9:10, 11:12, 14 hours later, 2:12. I don't see how they can say this is a coincidence. This is an animal. The door cam disconnects at 147212. Software detects a person on camera. And I'm going to have to have Fitzgibbons explain what he's saying about looping and covering it up. 228. Wow. 16 minutes later, her pacemaker disconnects from the phone, which means Simply, it goes 20, 30ft away from her iPhone, which was left there in the home. It doesn't mean it quit working. It means it got away from the phone. The phone can't trace it anymore. 1156, family checks on Nancy. 1203. It's on. Joining me tonight, an all star panel to make sense of what we are learning now. We just got that timeline. So much is being made of. Is one of the family a suspect? And we heard the sheriff today state, we don't have a suspect. We don't have a person of interest yet. Everyone is under suspicion. That's what they always say. Everybody is under suspicion. But what would it take Bethany Marshall, for family members to sit with her that evening, be with her and pretend nothing was going to happen, all the while plotting and planning her kidnap and faking it? I just. Did you see Savannah Guthrie, sister Annie and brother Cameron. They did not look like any of them were faking it. I know Savannah. She's not faking it. I get a deluge of people online suggesting she is somehow part of this. That's just ridiculous. No, that did not happen. But look at their demeanors. Dr. Bethany, let's just clear that up right now.
- [04:53]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
Nancy's children are not responsible for this. They are not. I mean, I look at their demeanor. They're distraught. They're. They're concerned. This is their mother. We don't have any history to suggest that they had an antagonistic relationship with their mother. They. She was invited into the home on a Saturday night to play games and hang out with the family. This is a beloved mother and grandmother. Now, what we don't know, and I keep waiting for this, is we don't know about caregivers, gardeners, people who are coming in and out of her life, bankers, financial people. There's some. Somebody in her inner circle, somebody she confides in, maybe outside of her. The sibling group of her children who might know something about somebody who is pestering her, bothering her, somebody she has a suspicion about. And that's what I'm really, really so curious about. And none of that has come out so far.
- [05:54]
Nancy Grace
Dr. Bethany, again, I want to look at Savannah, Annie and Cameron last night. Again, I am getting deluged with people suggesting that they are somehow part of their own mother's disappearance. They say, look at Annie. She's not moving. She's not saying anything. Well, clearly they designated Savannah to speak. That's what she does for a living. They're Numb. I've got to defend them. Dr. Bethany. They're numb. They're exhausted. That's why they're not lively and chattering in the background.
- [06:27]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
I'm going to use a clinical term. They're dissociated. We dissociate when reality is unbearable. This is unbearable. Their dear mother is gone. There is blood on the front doorstep. They can't even contemplate. Nancy, you've talked about your mother. If something happened to her, you would panic, but then you would become numb, too, because the possibilities are so overwhelming. They don't know if their mother is being tortured, if she's alive, if she's dead. They can't even feel or think. Nancy. That's what we're seeing.
- [07:05]
Nancy Grace
You know, I was looking very, you said I was looking very carefully at that door photo, the photo of the front door and the stepway, the driveway walkway where there's blood. If you look carefully to the right of that double lock, there is a red smudge and it's in close proximity to the blood on the ground on the walkway. Is that Nancy's blood? Now we've been told, and correct me if I'm wrong, Dave Mack, that there was no blood on the interior of the home that they've been able to identify yet.
- [07:43]
Dave Mack
I would make sure you say yet. They haven't said that it's in there yet, but they did identify the blood right there at the entryway as being Nancy's.
- [07:51]
Nancy Grace
Well, if there's blood on the inside, then why haven't they identified that either? And you know, another thing. Joining us, guys, Brian Fitzgibbons from USPA Nationwide Security for a Living. He leads a team of investigators that go worldwide finding missing people. You can get blood DNA analysis back overnight almost immediately. I don't know what they're talking about. They're waiting on samples, but maybe they've gotten unidentified DNA and they're trying to get a sample from that. That would take longer.
- [08:24]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yeah, I think that there's probably some touch DNA from the inside that they're looking to analyze. And with now the FBI announcing that they're jointly on this case, the ability to process these things much faster is going to come into play. So, you know, I think in the coming days we're going to learn a lot more about the DN.
- [08:52]
Nancy Grace
Crime stories with Nancy Grace. So the mom is dropped off early in the evening around 9:48. That's when the garage door has activity. 9:50, the garage door closes with me. As I mentioned, an all star panel, Dave Mack, Crime Stories, investigative reporter on this case from the very beginning, Brian Fitzgibbons, I just introduced you to him. USPA Nationwide Security and a renowned psychoanalyst, Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us out of LA. She's the author of Deal Breakers. You can see her starring on Peacock now. And find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com we're talking about the timeline. Looking at the timeline, 1:47am the doorbell disconnects. 1:47am the door cam. Doorbell cam disconnects. 2:12am Software detects a person on camera. But see, the camera part of that has been disconnected. So while the software is picking up movement, the cam isn't seeing it. That's how I understand it. But then Brian Fitzgibbons, he launches into some discussion that it could have been an animal. My question is, why would the door cam disconnect? I mean, look in the picture, there's just a silver circle where the door cam used to be. It's that silver thing right there. That's where the door cam is used to be. It fit right there. It's gone now. What is he trying to say? What is he saying, Brian?
- [10:50]
Brian Fitzgibbons
The animal comment was perplexing. I believe what the sheriff is saying is that at 1:47 that doorbell camera was removed from its base so that there was some digital log in the camera to that effect. And now at 212, you have to understand a Nest camera has three modes, home, away and off. And in the home mode it will still register seeing a person and that will log that data in a log that it saw a person, but it won't be recording while in home mode. So, you know, was the camera in home mode it just logged that event? That's what it seems to be to me. I don't think that these cameras are going to mistake a person for an animal. Most of the, most of the cameras nowadays will accurately record, you know, if they see a dog or deer walk by it, it will record an animal over a person.
- [11:47]
Nancy Grace
I've been saying ring bell, it's a nest. You're right, Brian. Now tell me how that works again. And I want to make what you say and what he said both be true. I want you to reconcile what he said, decipher it, and tell me what happened.
- [12:05]
Brian Fitzgibbons
What it sounds like to me, Nancy, is that that camera was popped off from the inside of the house. So it didn't register seeing anybody. And then when it was moved at 2:12, it actually sees a person. So I think what we can see, what we can glean from this timeline is the doorbell camera was disconnected off the base. 25 minutes later, that camera is moved, and it's pointing in the direction that it actually registers contact with a person.
- [12:36]
Nancy Grace
Let's hear it from the horse's mouth.
- [12:38]
Dave Mack
The doorbell camera, it was removed. We know that, but we're not confirming that any cameras were smashed or destroyed around the house.
- [12:49]
Nancy Grace
Okay. All right. Dave Mack, Speaking of cameras, quote, around the house, is it your understanding there were granny cams, as I call the ones we have for my mom? You know, there's nanny cams. I call them granny cams. Were there granny cams in Mrs. Guthrie's home?
- [13:09]
Dave Mack
That is what has been reported, that there were granny cams, as you say, in the home that were there and covering certain areas of the home. So that if Mrs. Guthrie were to fall down or become incapacitated, they would be. They being the family or whoever had access, which we're told a very small group of people had access to the cameras, and they could actually see what was taking place inside the home while she was alone. We've pointed this out. 84 years old, great mental health. Physically, she's got some issues walking around. So it makes sense that they would have cameras inside the house. Interesting that the sheriff wasn't asked a question about the cameras inside the home. He volunteered that information, saying that they didn't have smashed. His comment was, I don't know where you're getting that information. Smashed cameras inside that home would indicate somebody was in there, that a knew the cameras were in existence, knew where they were placed, and also knew where they were angled to pick up movement of Mrs. Guthrie inside the home. And that individual or people or persons would have been able to avoid showing up on those camera angles so they wouldn't be picked up.
- [14:20]
Nancy Grace
I believe his words were to the effect no cameras inside the house were destroyed, which tells me that there are cameras inside the house. I mean, am I reading that incorrectly, guys?
- [14:33]
Brian Fitzgibbons
No, you're absolutely right.
- [14:34]
Dave Mack
That.
- [14:34]
That.
- [14:35]
Brian Fitzgibbons
That's exactly what we learned from that statement from the sheriff, that there are cameras inside the house. He has also, unfortunately, indicated that they don't seem to have any of the footage from those cameras. He mentioned a couple of things.
- [14:50]
Nancy Grace
He said something, Brian, about looping and covering itself. Looping over and covering up images of someone. What is he saying?
- [15:01]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yeah, that I was trying to figure out, Nancy. And my best crack at that is basically maybe it was the mode that this camera was set in that it was not set to record, but it was logging events. And that they're working with Nest in Google to try to extract that.
- [15:22]
Nancy Grace
Another question I have is at 2:12am Software detects movement on the camera, but the nest has already been disconnected. So I'm trying to reconcile that. Does that mean it picks up movement but it can no longer record an image or it doesn't record an image, only movement. Could you break it down in simple terms, Brian?
- [15:47]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yeah, to explain this simply, these doorbel camera cameras will have battery power to them, okay? So you could disconnect it from that base. Then an event gets logged, you know, in it within its software. And that now you've moved it, but it's not seeing any person as it's moving. When you turn that, you know, 25 minutes later, somebody picks it up and it's pointing towards a person. Now it's logging that that event again, that it saw the person.
- [16:21]
Nancy Grace
So it logs it. But is there an image? Because he's saying it loops over. Did it ever record an image? What I'm getting at, if it ever did record an image, whether it looped over it or not, could that be obtained from the cloud or is it connected to a local server?
- [16:38]
Brian Fitzgibbons
My assumption would be that it did not. That it did not record an image.
- [16:42]
Nancy Grace
Guys, we're also hearing more about ransom notes.
- [16:47]
Brian Fitzgibbons
So the ransom note that was distributed to the media did make a demand for 5pm today. And if a transfer wasn't made, then.
- [16:56]
Nancy Grace
I think a second demand was for next Monday.
- [16:59]
Brian Fitzgibbons
We're not going to go beyond that. But that was the ransom note the media received.
- [17:04]
Nancy Grace
Well, it seems to me They've missed today's 5pm deadline. So we've got another deadline. Got a question. Did you guys glean that the ransom note sent to at least two, possibly three news outlets were the exact same ransom note? That's my understanding as we go to air right now. What about it, Dave Mack?
- [17:26]
Dave Mack
It seems to be that is the case because they, they, they being the sheriff's department, law enforcement has not indicated that they were all different individual. And what is being reported is consistent from all outlets so far. You know, we've got outlets there in Tucson, local tv. But then you've got the national angle of it with tmz and they appear to all say the same information. So whether they're identical, I don't know. But it was emailed to the outlets and that would be indicative of easy enough just to, you know, copy and paste or forward whatever you want to do.
- [18:01]
Nancy Grace
Okay, if it's emailed, why don't we have the IP provider. What. How are ways that criminals hide the location from which they send an email? Brian?
- [18:13]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yes, so they could use a series of VPNs to protect this. You know, where they created the email accounts. You know, depending on how nuanced they are, they could make this very, very difficult. Now, what I will say is if there's any team, the FBI is probably the best in the world at unwinding that. So, you know, it takes time. And I think that that is something that they're clearly, clearly focused on.
- [18:42]
Nancy Grace
Now, when you say vpn, you mean a virtual private network. How does that work? Because it seems to me that that could easily be pierced. You're on your computer and you go to private browser. I mean, how do you, how do you do vpn? Brian?
- [18:58]
Brian Fitzgibbons
No, this would be far more nuanced in order to hide your identity from the FBI. It would be far more nuanced than subscribing to a VPN service. You would need to have planned out the devices you're going to use, how you're going to connect to the Internet, and then layering, filtering that message through multiple devices that might be not located with you. So I'd be unable to predict exactly how they did it, but my guess is it was, it was a pretty nuanced effort to protect that.
- [19:36]
Nancy Grace
So it's more than just an email masking service like Simple Login or Firefox Relay. It's not just an email masking service. Could you be a little more clear about how it's done?
- [19:49]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yeah, I guess the key point that I'm trying to make is if you're going to hide your identity in sending an email from the FBI, it's not going to be a 999amonth subscription service that you log into and sign up for. You know, you're going to have to have some pretty advanced technical skills to at least delay that process. My bet is that they will be able to find the origin of that email. How long it'll take, I don't know.
- [20:21]
Nancy Grace
Bottom line though, if they find the origin of the email, it could be an Internet cafe where somebody goes in in disguise, even though they're recorded and they log on with a fake email and they send the ransom and they send it to the three news outlets, including TMZ and Kold. So how is that going to help me? Can the FBI ultimately pierce that? And when they do pierce it and they find somebody sitting there at Internet Cafe with a, with a disguise on, then what do they do? Brian?
- [20:58]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yeah, I mean, in that example you just gave, that would probably be the safest way. But at least they now know, you know, hey, this person was in this area. And that's where they're going to start to zero in detecting cell phone patterns. Was that cell phone near Nancy Guthrie's house? You know, now they can start to connect the dots further to try to narrow down who it was, whether they were in a disguise or not.
- [21:24]
Nancy Grace
You know, I'm wondering about. Also pill counts. Pill counts. We know that she cannot survive without her meds. What about it? Dr. Bethany Marshall. If the perp knew which way her nest cams were pointed in order to avoid them, knew to disable the one on the door, managed to escape being caught on camera. Sent this by private network to protect their identity through layers and layers and filters. And filters. The ransom note. Would they know enough to take her pills to keep her alive? Pills. Meds were there, but how many meds? How many pills?
- [22:14]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
You know, Nancy, if you really want to get money for kidnapping, you want a ransom, right? You want to keep the kidnapped person alive. But I think that in a case like this with an elderly person, I don't know that they're thinking that far ahead. I mean, there's some kind of desperation that drives a move like this. I'm thinking about the motivations for a kidnap. You want money, right? You. Maybe you're envious. Maybe you hate Savannah Guthrie because she has an incredible career. Maybe like Bryan Coburger.
- [22:52]
Nancy Grace
Okay, just stop. Stop, stop, please, please. I'm not writing a fifth grade girl's novel. She hates Savannah, so she creates a huge plot to cross the country to Tucson, got in the desert and steal her mother. No. On all this business. Oh, it's because Savannah was going to cover Epstein in an unaired segment.
- [23:15]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
No, I think it's something a little different, Nancy.
- [23:18]
Nancy Grace
I think if any connection to Savannah, it's this. They want money.
- [23:23]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
Money.
- [23:23]
Nancy Grace
Savannah has money.
- [23:25]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
Exactly.
- [23:26]
Nancy Grace
To me, that's very simple, Nancy.
- [23:28]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
That's the connective line. I see too. Money people, when they see money, they want it. And that's why I was wondering earlier about caregivers, gardeners, anybody in her life, even church members who knew that Nancy was connected to somebody wealthy and famous and wanting to target that person for their money. As you know, Nancy, even, like when there's an elderly person who dies in a family, often the surviving sibling group falls apart because somebody in that sibling group wants the money. Money is such a driver behind crime. So who in Nancy's life knew about the wealth that her daughter had and who might have wanted that wealth.
- [24:26]
Nancy Grace
Crime stories with nancy grace. Guys, Another issue that has now been made public by law enforcement, many media had already heard it and did not report it, including us, was that her pacemaker disconnected. It disconnected around 2:28. Now that again does not mean that she died and her pacemaker quit working. It means that more likely that she was out of range from her phone, which we know was left behind. What did he say, Dave Mack, what.
- [25:08]
Dave Mack
Did you glean that the pacemaker disconnecting from the phone, you know, it's connected via Bluetooth, which means you've got a 20 foot range. It doesn't mean that she was, that she passed away. It doesn't mean anything other than her phone was there on the nightstand and she was no longer within 20ft of that phone. So that's pretty much where they're leaving that particular comment. I'm talking about law enforcement talking about the pacemaker and what it means by disconnecting doesn't mean she's, you know, that she fell out. Doesn't mean that she, it just means that she was no longer within 20ft.
- [25:44]
Nancy Grace
To Brian Gibbons joining us from USPA nationwide security. Earlier one of our experts, Chris McDonough noted that when law enforcement left Sister Annie's house, they had a, it looked like a wooden, but a box with them. He says that that is a U Fed U. The letter U is in Utah. Fed as in FedEx, which is a tool implementing Cellebrite. Cellebrite analyzes and can download very quickly all digital data from a location. We saw a very in depth explanation of Cellebrite on the witness stand from the Secret Service in the Alex Murdaugh case. That's when many people first found out about it. Explain if McDonough's right, what they did in Annie's home.
- [26:38]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yeah, so this, this celebrate U Fed case that the images were shared on social media. What that's able to do is a complete extraction of all mobile phone data, contacts, SMS messages, pictures, videos, call logs, audio files. It's going to do a full memory dump of that phone system providing, you know, even old files that were deleted, passwords, et cetera. So it's going to, that that kit is a mobile kit that is assigned to that team that they brought there. You know, we can draw some conclusions from that. You know, are they just excluding family members? They want to get an image of those phones in that process, that's the most likely scenario.
- [27:28]
Nancy Grace
Okay, Brian, one more time and slowly. What does the U Fed do very slowly. How does it work?
- [27:33]
Brian Fitzgibbons
So the U Fed is going to be able to connect to any mobile device and provide a complete extraction. Basically they're going to get contacts, SMS messages, photos, videos, call logs, any audio files. All the IMEI data, anything that's on that SIM card will be imaged by.
- [27:57]
Nancy Grace
That U Fed device and it gets it immediately. Then it's got to be analyzed. And I'd like to point out to everyone, all you legal legals already know this. The first place law enforcement looks is at those closest to the victim. So of course they're looking at the family. So first thing you do is rule them out. Then you move out to people that worked with Nancy Guthrie, people that cut her grass, people that trimmed her trees, people that delivered mail, FedEx guys, UPS, the people next door, the people in the neighborhood, the people at the grocery store, the people at the church, the granny nannies, if there are any, and the granny nanny sons and the granny nanny husbands. And it goes out and out until you catch the person. Now this person, I'm telling you, and guys jump in, is somebody local. Because why would they have sent the ransom notes to KOLD and tmz, possibly kgun? K G U N Because they're local. How would they know where she lived? Out literally in the middle of the desert in this desert enclave. How would they know about the granny cams and the nest cam? Were they watching to see when she was brought home, when that garage door closed? All of this suggests someone that knows her or the family fairly well or can access that information. Also yesterday we saw LE come back to the scene and go back and forth to the garage with canines. Now we know part of the timeline is the up and down of the garage door. Put all this together. Brian Fitzgibbons, what do you think?
- [30:01]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yeah, so with the up and down of the garage door and the timeline, you know, they're certainly going to find out, you know, is that a normal minute and a half, two minute gap for when Nancy's in and out of the house? If they have that data, they're going to be able to get past data as well to verify that. Nothing jumps off the page to me there. What I think is really, really a big question about this timeline is with relation to the doorbell camera. There's a 25 minute gap from when that camera was disconnected to when that person is registered. The software detects a person, right? What happened within that 25 minutes and how was nothing captured by these other cameras inside the house? You Know, those are the main. That's the big question.
- [30:52]
Nancy Grace
I'm curious. Hey, do you see the 2:12am Guys, software detects person on camera. Is that the door cam or is that the inside cam where a person is detected on camera? What about it, Dave Mack? Because we know she had a spike in her pacemaker at 2am Exactly.
- [31:13]
Dave Mack
So we know there's something going on in that house regardless of what law enforcement is willing to say at this point. You mentioned that a person appears on camera or motion is detected of a person. It's not a big leap to think we've got action taking place in and around the home and Nancy Guthrie becoming intensely aggravated, moving somewhere that her pacemaker reacts to that. We've got this very, very tight window here of activity that one can only look at the facts in front of you and say, well, that's when she had to. Something happened to Nancy Guthrie between the time of 147 and228.
- [32:00]
Nancy Grace
Well, let me ask you this. The door, the door cam disconnects 147. At 2:12, a person is detected on camera. But wait a minute. At 2am there is entry missing. At 2am we get a spike on her pacemaker. Does that mean the door cam disconnects? They're in the home at 2am waking her up, rousting her out of bed or off the sofa. 2:12am does software disconnect a person? Does software detect a person outside or movement inside, taking her out of her bedroom? 228, she's out of range. So what do you believe, Dave Mack, that 2am Spike on her pacemaker indicates?
- [32:59]
Dave Mack
I believe that tied together with the 1:47am indicator that she was rousted out of bed. And I believe it was probably very physical to get her out of bed. You know, this is not a person who moves around easily. Somebody inside the home is going to want to get in and out of there quickly. They're not going to be gentle. They're not going to wake her up with some music. They're going to wake her up to the point where she is going to react in a state of shock, panic and fear. So that would make a sense. That makes sense for me at 2am having that spike 13 minutes after we get the indicator. And again, when you look at what else is coming up, it just shows you that some kind of chaos is taking place and she has reacted to it. And we know that we have her blood going out of the home between the time that we get that first indicator of 1:47, the 2:00am spike, and then 2:28. Nancy it tells you a lot.
- [33:57]
Nancy Grace
It was over so quickly, her being taken from the home. What do you make of the 2:00am spike as it fits into the timeline?
- [34:06]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
Dr. Bethany well, I agree with Dave Mack. I think that somebody tried to get her out of bed, somebody who was unfamiliar to her. So you have the inner circle, you have her adult children, you have maybe the church members, you have people who know her intimately. And then you have the next outer ring of people who know her intimates. Maybe it's the spouse of the gardener, maybe it's a caregiver or a nurse who comes in and admits, you know, gives, gives, administers medication and that she goes home and talks to her adult children or something like that. You have an outer circle, somebody who she's not that familiar with, who tries to get her out of bed, and that's where you see that spike. So. So, Nancy, I'm going to go back to this idea that elderly people are their targets, right? They're very vulnerable and especially when there's wealth and she has a beautiful home. I've seen that neighborhood. All these lots are one to four acres. Anybody who goes through that neighborhood knows that Nancy has money, right? And so they're enticed by the stories of the people on the in the inner circle, and they're thinking about how can I utilize Nancy to get some financial gain. And so when you go back to the spike, somebody's getting her out of bed who maybe is tangentially related to her, but is not a primary person her life.
- [35:36]
Nancy Grace
Guys, you're seeing a segment on the Today show, Savannah and her mom that was taken off YouTube. It was a an Arizona homecoming where Savannah went back home. There's a lot of speculation that whoever plotted this, saw this segment and became aware of Nancy Guthrie. I don't necessarily believe that because I believe the perp is local anyway. That is from YouTube. And to you, Fitzgibbons, where do you what do you think the 2:00am spike indicates?
- [36:08]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yeah, I'm in agreement with Dr. Bethany and Dave that, you know, what we're seeing is likely the perpetrator removed that had already gained access to the residents by 147. And I think an important note here that we haven't talked about. To conduct an operation like this to abduct someone, it's going to take two people, right? There's very likely not one person doing this to pull her out of the house, put her in a vehicle and drive her away all right, so I think what you see on the timeline is, hey, take the camera off. Person's now in the house. 2am is probably when they made first contact with Nancy. And I believe that the data bears that out.
- [36:58]
Nancy Grace
And in the middle of all this, trying to find Nancy Guthrie and bring her home alive, an imposter ransomer emerges. What happened? Dave Mack.
- [37:09]
Dave Mack
At the first hint that there was a ransom note, when TMZ went live, before they went to police with the note, we have this ransom note appearing at KOLD and KGUN in Tucson. So it's public knowledge that ransom notes have occurred. However, the FBI investigates another ransom note that comes in. Now, this is one we don't know much about, but what we do know is that the FBI made an arrest today, and it was of a ransom hoax. It was not similar to the other ransom notes that had been reported at this point. Point suspected it was a hoax, and they were able to arrest that individual trying to take advantage of the worst possible thing for a family to go through right now. He's already been arrested. He or she has already been arrested. We haven't got a name or anything else, but we'll find that out.
- [38:00]
Nancy Grace
Dave. Matt, you have a concern.
- [38:02]
Dave Mack
I'm really concerned that the home was treated as a crime scene very early on. They. They being law enforcement, did all the work they wanted to do and released the home back to the family. But then yesterday afternoon, we get word that they've got yellow tape up and they have blocked everything off. And law enforcement, they've got FBI, they've got guys in tactical gear, and K9 units are out at the site again. And it's an explosion of activity after the place. The home has already been released back to the family. That bothers me immensely because I wonder, what did they miss the first time? And why is it all of a sudden becoming a big issue again?
- [38:42]
Nancy Grace
Well, obviously. And chime in, Fitzgibbons, if you disagree. They should never have released the crime scene. The crime scene should not be open now. It should be locked down. Everybody and their sister can go over there and poke around. Why has it been released? I think it's a horrible idea. What about it? And that opens up claims from an ultimate defense team that someone else came in and tampered with the scene and planted evidence. That's where that goes. Brian.
- [39:09]
Brian Fitzgibbons
I couldn't agree more. That scene should have been held and not released to the family. That scene should still be held. And Sheriff Chris Nano said as much today in the press conference that that Was a mistake. What he tried to explain it away with is that the FBI joined the case and they wanted to get a fresh look at the crime scene themselves, which is certainly a natural thing. You know, that that was a mistake. It's a Monday morning quarterback, as he said. But they definitely should have held that scene.
- [39:45]
Nancy Grace
Did you pick up on what Savannah was saying? Oh, guys, that video was from our friends at 12 News. Did you pick up on what Savannah was saying about AI Artificial images, artificial intelligence being used to create a photo or video of Nancy Guthrie? Does that indicate to you that the ransom notes had some sort of an image on them?
- [40:09]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Brian, that was the very first thought that came to my mind when I heard that comment, is that there must have been some kind of image or video included in that ransom note. And what Savannah was expressing is, hey, we need more. We need real proof of life, which in today's day and age, with AI and the ability for deep fakes, is going to have to be closely coordinated with the FBI to have some kind of two way live video call, maybe on an encrypted channel that the FBI creates.
- [40:45]
Nancy Grace
Speaking of Savannah's plea to the kidnapper.
- [40:51]
On behalf of our family, we want to thank all of you for the prayers for our beloved mom, Nancy. We feel them, and we continue to believe that she feels them, too. Our mom is a kind, faithful, loyal, fiercely loving woman of goodness and light. She's funny, spunky and clever. She has grandchildren that adore her and crowd around her and cover her with kisses. She loves fun and adventure. She is a devoted friend. She is full of kindness and knowledge. Talk to her and you'll see.
- [41:45]
The.
- [41:45]
Light is missing from our lives. Nancy is our mother. We are her children. She is our beacon. She holds fast to joy in all of life's circumstances. She chooses joy day after day, despite having already passed through great trials of pain and grief. We are always going to be merely human, Just normal human people who need our mom.
- [42:26]
Dave Mack
Mama.
- [42:28]
Nancy Grace
Mama, if you're listening, we need you to come home. We miss you. Our mom is our heart and our home. She is 84 years old. Her health, her heart is fragile. She lives in constant pain. She is without any medicine. She needs it to survive and she needs it not to suffer. We, too have heard the reports about a ransom letter in the media. As a family, we are doing everything that we can. We are ready to talk. However, we live in a world where voices and images are easily manipulated. We need to know without a doubt that she is alive and that you have her we want to hear from you, and we are ready to listen. Please reach out to us.
- [43:49]
Mommy.
- [43:52]
If you are hearing this, you are a strong woman. You are God's precious daughter. Nancy. We believe and know that even in this valley, he is with you. Everyone is looking for you, Mommy, everywhere. We will not rest. Your children will not rest until we are together again. We speak to you every moment, and we pray without ceasing. And we rejoice in advance for the day that we hold you in our arms again. We love you, Mom.
- [44:39]
We love you, Mom. Stay strong. If you know or think you know anything about Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, please dial the 520-351-4900. There is now a $50,000 reward from the FBI. That number toll free, 800-225-5324. If you wish to remain anonymous, please dial 520-882-7463. Repeat, anonymous tips, 520-882-7463. Thanks to our guests, but especially you, for being with us. And please join us in prayer as we pray for the safe return of Mrs. Guthrie, 84 years old, Nancy Gray, signing off. I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.
- [46:02]
This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.