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- [00:00]
Nancy Grace
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- [04:31]
Dave Mack
The law enforcement, we're talking the FBI and the sheriff's department asking all of the homes in the area if they have a camera pointed toward the street to go back and get that video for the law enforcement because they don't want it being recorded over. You're showing right there at 26238 in the morning. We've got a car within two and a half miles of Nancy Guthrie's home seen on ring camera. This is a shocker because when the sheriff's department first put up their ring of area they were confident in was about two miles. It this is at two and a half miles. So they missed it. Now this is becoming a huge part of the investigation as law enforcement is trying to identify what type of vehicle it is and anything else they can find. So they're looking for any vehicles traveling along these roads that match up with this vehicle, trying to identify it, Nancy. And they're looking for every camera they can find.
- [05:28]
Nancy Grace
I'm going to go straight out to Scott Eicher joining us, a founding member of the FBI's by the way, this video is from our friends at FOX News, the FBI cellular analysis survey team but also homicide investigator in Norfolk Police has worked so many missing people cases he can't count them. Now at Precision Cellular Analysis, Scott Eicher, speaking of the car, I think it's very telling that Pima County Sheriff's is asking now for footage of vehicles in the neighborhood. And they asked for footage about a car the morning 10am the morning of the kidnap. That would have been January 31. What do you think?
- [06:21]
Scott Eicher
Well, this is the normal process of the investigation like this. You have breakout groups that are looking at different sections of the investigation. I'm sure there's one group of investigators that are saying, okay, we're going to concentrate on trying to identify this car scene going by the cactuses and we got to get start working on that. So they'll follow that path. They'll go out and talk to the neighbors. They'll help the neighbors access their cameras because as we know, some people are not very good at accessing their film and their footage. They'll go to the businesses and they're going to keep asking the public to provide anything they have that might help identify vehicles that were in the area at that time. We're doing the same thing with the cell phones, right? We're following cell phones. Hopefully we see a cell phone follow that same track as that car went from Nancy's neighborhood to that main street. Things like that will help us clue and piece it together.
- [07:19]
Nancy Grace
You know, that's significant. Straight out to Joe Scott Morgan joining us, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit new series Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. We're showing you some footage from our friends at Fox. Joe Scott, he just brought up something really interesting. Well, among many things tonight focus on a vehicle. Joe Scott at 10am 10am Jan.31, Jan. 31. Which tells me they believe the perp was in broad daylight January 31. And before I lose the thought, Joe Scott, what Iker just said, remember in Alex Murdoch's trial that you and I investigated ourselves, we see Murdaugh's huge honkin SUV traveling the night of the murders when he murdered Paul and Maggie, his wife and son, with his cell phone scratching off from the scene. And he had Maggie's cell phone with him. The info, the black box, so to speak, inside his SUV shows him stopping the car, lowering the passenger side window. That is where we find Maggie's cell phone thrown out the window right there. So very often we see cell phones traveling with a car. And my point is that if we get A cell phone traveling with the car at 10am January 31st. Now we've got a cell number because even if the perp turned off his cell the night of the kidnapping, I guarantee you he didn't turn it off the morning of the kidnapping. 10:00am See where I'm going?
- [09:21]
Joe Scott Morgan
Yeah, yeah. Why would you. And again, this is another one of these benchmarks relative to benchmarking that immediate point in time. And this goes back to a theory that I've held on and other people have held onto over the time. And that's the idea of casing this area, just going back and making sure that everything is as they perceive it to be, maybe taking one last glance at the, at the area before they go in to do whatever it is that they're going to do and assessing the area. I think that this is very, very critical piece of information, Nancy, because if they can tie that back to a suspect here, this is going to be critical. Moving the case specifically on day one.
- [10:02]
Nancy Grace
Brian Fitzgibbons joining us USP a nationwide security. Let me just say again, leading a team of investigators that do nothing but find missing people and extract them. Former Marine, Iraqi war vet Fitz Gibbons. Day one, you and I said car. Car. You've got Brian Coburger cracked with a car. Yes. We hear about the DNA analysis, which was amazing. But it all started with a clerk at a gas station seeing his white Elantra speeding by around 4am the morning of the murders. Right. And she gave that to police. And the alarm went out to all law enforcement, including campus police about a white Elantra. A campus cop at WSU Washington State University says, oh, who's registered on campus for a parking spot with a white Elantra. Oh, Brian Kohberger. That's where his name came from because of his car. And then I like to use the case of glam yoga instructor Caitlin Armstrong. She murdered her love rival, a world class dirt bike champion, because of over a man. Really. And her SUV is seen circling and circling and circling the murder scene. And then of course there's Molly Tibbets. She goes out for a jog after studying all afternoon. And over and over there she is, there's Molly. And this guy keeps approaching her because of distinctive markings on his vehicle. He's tracked through a vehicle. Day one Fitzgibbons, we said car. And I'm not giving you or myself a pat on the back. I'm saying if this is the car, if this is the car at 10am Jan.31st, that they're interested in Jackpot, maybe.
- [11:54]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yeah. And, you know, hey, you can go to great lengths to hide a cell phone. You could not take it. You could put it in airplane mode. It could be in a Faraday bag to try to keep Scott Eicher from finding you. But you can't hide a car. You can't hide a vehicle. So the hope is that if we can identify this vehicle and start to piece together some of the video evidence from the surrounding area, and, you know, experts on this case have gone to great lengths, including Douglas McGregor, who's been on this show, to map out the potential avenues of egress from Mrs. Guthrie's home. So that's. That's got to be the focus is. Is getting the description of that vehicle and trying to find some video evidence of it to tie it back to him.
- [12:43]
Nancy Grace
Okay, Scott Iker, how do you trace a car? Once we have the picture, if we get the picture at 10:00am They've got to have a reason that they're saying 10:00am the morning of the kidnap, Jan 31, she's kidnapped. Go through the clock the next morning around 2am why are they saying 10am Jan.31st? They've got to have a reason for saying that. Was there an eyewitness? Remember, early on, a neighbor said they had seen a strange car that didn't belong to anybody sitting out on the street for an extended period of time near Nancy's home. Is it that car? Are we finally tying something together tonight? So let's just pretend for argument's sake, it is the car. They've got a time. They have a time. They must know about a car. So how do we track it?
- [13:38]
Scott Eicher
Well, there's several different ways. One, we've talked about the videos, and they've got to really push that to get that from all the neighbors, all the businesses. Two is looking at the cell phones embedded in cars. If it's a newer type vehicle, we can narrow that down through the tower dumps of that area, identifying the type of cars that are there. Hopefully, it'll match the types of cars, and then we can track those cars and the cell phones that are traveling with those cars at those specific times. So that would help us get to those points of hopefully identifying who that is and what kind of car they were in and then where they went to after they were in the area around the time of the abduction.
- [14:25]
Nancy Grace
So here's another question out to you, Joseph Scott Morris. Can they trace the car's movements? Which way was it going? Does it match? Potentially, one of the cars caught 2.5 miles away the night of the kidnapping that we see on video. Is it one of those cars? Can we connect that? Can we connect it to the car that's been sitting out in the neighborhood surveilling? Can we connect it to the car that was spotted at a gas station 711 type store that night? I mean, there's cars out the yin yang. A white vehicle was spotted on ring cam seven minutes away from Nancy's home. Are the pieces of the puzzle finally fitting together regarding a vehicle? Because now we know, Joe Scott, they're looking at a specific vehicle. We think it's a white vehicle. The morning she's taken, they're zeroing in on that. Jo Scott, what else is your analysis?
- [15:29]
Joe Scott Morgan
Well, going to my esteemed colleague Mr. Eicher, I think that the most critical bit to this is trying to get that videography from all these other locations. And they can kind of create what's what I would call a mosaic of this imagery of the car moving past, moving forward, going about. And also if they are able, because you had mentioned earlier about the cell phone, if this thing is pinging in there and they're capturing this, particularly in that the approximately 10am run that you're talking about, if they can zero that in, then you've got two points of connectivity at that moment in time. Where is this thing moving to? Can you see it moving in front of other cameras and also out and about away from this kind of, as it's been described, this maze in this neighborhood? Is there anything out on the periphery they've been able to piece together from local that is going to match this up? I think that that's going to be critical. I'm very interested still with this area that is adjacent to the construction area that was there and this unoccupied home. I want to know has that car ever settled there? Has it stopped? Has it paused? Because you're looking at a couple of locations where it could have paused. So where is the interest here? Going back to this idea of the profile of the individual, where they vested time wise? Where are they vested location wise? And that's, that's going to be a big, big part of this thread. Nancy.
- [17:01]
Nancy Grace
Dave Mack, specifically, we understand the feds are interested in vehicles along Via Entrada. Where is Via Entrada? What is it?
- [17:09]
Dave Mack
It's the main residential road entering the neighborhood where Nancy Guthrie lives. It is referred to as a maze like road. It serves as the main residential road into the Catalina Foothills neighborhood. And you mentioned this earlier, it forms Part of a maze like residential area that is poorly lit at night that comes into play. You have to know the roads and where you're going at night to be able to function in this area along Via Entrada.
- [17:39]
Nancy Grace
So once we have a date, once we have a time, 10am we can go from there. And Scott Eichert, wouldn't it be possible if we're going with a white car? 10am Jan, 31st to try. I'm sure you recall the Fotus Doulos case. Jennifer Doulos, Connecticut mom of five body never found the law enforcement there in Connecticut put together an incredible video montage from businesses, homes, even at one point a public bus opened up and you see the perp driving by, tracking his movements. I've got a time, I've got a potential vehicle, I've got a street. Isn't it possible now to look at the cams, look at WI fi along the routes and see where the car went? I know it's going to be difficult, but is it possible?
- [18:32]
Scott Eicher
It is difficult. And there's a lot of different databases we could pull from. One is the videos from the area, as you mentioned, the choke points coming from that point. Where would a car have to go from that point to get to other areas? The main avenues, the stoplights, the business cameras, it's all important stuff. But when we look at the cellular aspect of it, we can look at Google, we can look at Facebook, we can look at just tower dumps, same stuff. We do another tower dump in that area because it's going to be possibly different towers than used around Ms. Guthrie's residence. And we see. All right, is that those devices in that tower dump also in Nancy Guthrie's area? Tower dump. So now we put that same device in two important areas. That helps us a lot to try to narrow down the amount of different devices that we have to sort through to figure out which ones are important. Craving bold, authentic taste without kitchen chaos.
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- [22:28]
Nancy Grace
Also tonight, a vacant home used as a staging area. Dave Mack what does that mean?
- [22:36]
Dave Mack
You know Nancy it is a home that sits off the backyard of Nancy Guthrie's home. It's vacant and you mentioned it earlier. The the perp walks up to the front door. We don't see a car dropping them off. We don't see a car picking them up in the neighborhood right there. But if they were staging, meaning if the perpetrators were in that is vacant, they could be in that house for days they could be watching the comings and goings at Nancy Guthrie's home and then when they decide it's time to go walk across the backyard area. Now this is at the time we're talking 2 to 2:30 in the morning when Nancy Guthrie's neighbor facing her backyard, facing Nancy Guthrie's backyard, the dog went crazy and the two video cameras facing the backyard of Nancy Guthrie went silent. Could not connect to WI fi. The vacant home is near there. So if it's used by the perpetrators as a place to make their plan to stage, well, there you go. You've got a clear shot walking into Nancy Guthrie's home and we've got a dog going crazy.
- [23:46]
Nancy Grace
This aerial view from our friends at 12 News. Now I'm going to ask the control room to please show me the aerial view of the feds combing through her side entrance, coming from the same direction, going past the pool and actually taking photos of the gate. The pool gate. Remember this, Jo Scott Morgan after Nano said, oh, there's nothing to see here. We see the feds coming through that side area. They're going through the pool area and they're going to pause and take photos when they go out the gate. This would be consistent with the perp coming from a staging area or parked elsewhere coming through the backyard neighbors lawn, going into Nancy Guthrie's property and going past the pool and coming through that gate. This is from our friends at FOX News. But let's see the 12 video again, the aerial video. Where would the vacant home be? There you see the neighbor's house. Did he come around and go through the pool area and down that side portion of Nancy's home? This is from our friends at 12 News. So to you Joseph Scott Morgan, let's just go with a theory we have to pursue every avenue that a vacant home was used as a staging area. What should they be doing right now as far as processing the staging area?
- [25:18]
Joe Scott Morgan
Well, I hope that it's completely locked down and if they've got the right personnel that are out there that could potentially process this. Thinking about anybody that might be indwelling and just like Dave said just a moment ago, were they hanging out there for, for an extended period of time. And that's key because the longer you hang out in a location relative to say trace evidence as it applies to forensics, the higher the probability is that you're going to leave something behind just like Locart's principle. So if you're in that, whether it be footprints or whatever the case might be Maybe discarded wrappers. If you're surveilling an area, things that you might not think of that we would go in, because we've got all the time in the world as forensics folks to go in there and pick that place apart. My. My biggest concern, Nancy, is that they haven't gotten to this soon enough because we've got a lot of time that has elapsed. Has anything degraded in there? Has anything been rubbed up against and obliterated? All these sorts of things. So this is a time critical area. And given the proximity, I think that it's significant. I hope that they're processing this accurately, looking for things like fingerprints, footprints, anything that can tie back to perhaps Mrs. Guthrie's location. Maybe even that car that we are talking about, the phone points of ingress and egress. You think about that gate back there in the backside. Did they always take care if they were surveilling the area to walk through that gate? Did they touch it? Had they left anything behind? So all of this stuff is still on the table, my friend.
- [26:59]
Nancy Grace
This could explain why we don't see a car that night, why the porch guy approached on foot. Is the vacant house behind Guthrie's home? Does it require the perp to come through the yard where the dog barked? Is the vacant home being processed for prints, DNA evidence? Question? Were people squatting there? Did they have a lease? Did they rent? We see the feds walking the trail. Is this why so many cases that I have covered and investigated and prosecuted involved use of a vacant home? Joe Scott, while I've got you, we now know that the cast prints that were attempted outdoors likely yielded nothing, probably because it was a gravel walkway for any number of reasons. But there's still hope of electrostatic lifts. What's that?
- [27:57]
Joe Scott Morgan
Okay, so when you think about electrostatic lifts, we all know about magnetism, right? We learned about that in physical science back in junior high school. So negatives attract positive. So what we do with electrostatic lift, you see an example of one here that we did at Jack State. That's a Mylar sheet. It's kind of like vinyl. You lay it over a suspected area where you have taken an oblique light. Do you see how we're lighting that kind of obliquely like that? And we try to raise that print by electrostatic charge. So you place the Mylar sheet over it, you add an electrical charge. The charge on the paper on the Mylar is actually negative, and everything at the ground level is positive. So what happens is this is lifted and captured and we have that for, you know, as long as we treat it, you know, with respect, the bit of evidence, so that we don't ruin it. We can go back to the lab and we can have a footprint expert that can assess it. And you're going to look for all kinds of little anomalies in there. And here's a thought. Here's a thought as well. Back to that vacant house. Okay, Are there any footprints over there that they could have actually assessed relative to electromagnetic lifts that could be tied back to anything that they might find on the floors inside of her house
- [29:17]
Nancy Grace
if the scene wasn't destroyed by crime scene investigators. Scott Eicher. We're also learning that the feds are searching for pharmaceutical records similar to meds used by Nancy Guthrie. How do you do that? Clearly, they're trying to find someone filling prescriptions or getting meds for Nancy Guthrie. So how do you go about finding that information?
- [29:43]
Scott Eicher
Well, you got to first jump the hurdle of privacy regarding medical records. That's going to be a tough one to get past. One of the things that you think about is that if they abducted Nancy and they wanted to keep her alive, did they refill her prescription somehow? Okay, maybe they didn't do that. But can we find other people, newer people that just started the same type of prescriptions that Nancy was on? So, I mean, that's an avenue to go. But I think it's going to be hard. It's not like you can do a tower dump on prescriptions. You're going to have to find a way to get into the privacy aspect of getting people's medical histories.
- [30:27]
Nancy Grace
Well, if there's a way, I guarantee you the feds will find it. Tonight, we're also learning the feds are expanding their questioning to people that don't necessarily live in the neighborhood. They are now questioning landscapers, construction workers, gardeners, you name it. Maybe the pool crew that Nana's allowed to come clean the pool after the kidnapping. Question to you, Dave Mack. Is it true that in the midst of all this, with the feds doing the heavy lifting, Nanos is spending quality time at the gym?
- [30:59]
Dave Mack
Nancy, he is under a microscope, and it doesn't seem to bother him in the least bit. Just to give you an idea, he has gone to the gym. Four out of five days, he's spending 90 plus minutes inside the gym. And by the way, he's being followed by. By the media, because, again, this is a guy that's got a recall out on him right now. He lives in an $850,000 gated community. His home is a mini mansion. He's driving a fairly new Corvette convertible and they follow him to the gym.
- [31:33]
Nancy Grace
Joining us tonight, former FBI Special Agent, Chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, author of Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI Agent's Manual for Behavior Prediction. He's got a second book, Unbreakable Alliances, a spy recruiters Authoritative guide to cultivating powerful and lasting connections. Robin Dreek is joining us. And Robin, you got me at former FBI Special Agent and Chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. The books are just gravy. Thank you for being with us. Robin, I want you to look at something that's come to our attention and that is the behavior of the porch guy, Robin Drake. He seems extremely casual and not at all in a hurry on what we now know to be January 11th. What do you make of it?
- [32:37]
Robin Dreek
Yeah. So anytime we're doing behavioral analysis, what we really want to do is put ourselves in their shoes to the best of our ability, obviously, because we're not broken people like this. But we want to literally think about what they're doing, what they're seeing and what their, what their motive is for doing these things. What's the goal? And so being so casual, says he has reps. A lot of people have said he's done this before. It's not unusual for him because he's so casual about it. But also what do people do? I mean all of us listening and tuning in can actually think of this. When we show up on someone's doorstep and they have a ring camera, nest cam or something, what do we typically hear? We hear the alarm, we hear the thing going off inside. And so and up to 80% of home invasions, whether targeting an individual or targeting property inside, they're doing scouting and reconnaissance, testing security systems, testing for things in the area. And also lingering on doorstep a large number of elderly people when they live at home alone and they're trying to get back in the house, they will hide and secrete ways to get in. Keys in bushes, keys under things. And so this individual most likely definitely was scouting ahead of time and most likely testing a security system and seeing who responds, how long it takes and what their reaction will be.
- [33:50]
Nancy Grace
Now we're also showing Fab one the early morning hours when Nancy was kidnapped. January 11th says a lot to me. You mentioned casual calm lingering on the doorstep. He's not at all concerned about being caught. He seems to know what he's doing. You stated that at the get go it was surmised he had taken part in this kind of behavior before in general. But this is telling me, Robin, that he has been on her porch before. He has seen her home before. He's not worried. I think of. Here's a great example. Robin Drake, JonBenet Ramsey. That's someone everyone can recall. The culprit was not worried at all about getting caught. The culprit, culprit took their time to kick back in the family home and write about a three page ransom note. And they go, I don't like it. I'm going to sit right here and write another one. Not at all concerned they're going to be caught or apprehended. Why? So this guy's behavior, he's just like standing there looking at the front door. We never see him in on either date, run to the street, sneak up. Nothing like that is telling me he's been here and cased her home many times before.
- [35:27]
Robin Dreek
Yeah, I totally agree. Either whether it was in daytime because he was part of some work crew or maintenance crew, or even just casually in the neighborhood at another neighbor's house, or whether this was not his first time on her front step, testing this location. So that casualness, either that or his brain is completely disengaged and he's completely compartmentalization because, you know, you got to take in all the potentialities. But yeah, I'm with you. I think he's been here before in some capacity, either daylight or nighttime.
- [35:55]
Nancy Grace
What is it about his demeanor? I mean, you're the FBI specialist in behavioral analysis. Robin Drake. What is it about his behavior that tells you this ain't his first time at the rodeo?
- [36:08]
Robin Dreek
Nothing startles him. If you just look at the fluidity of his movement. There's no change in the tempo, there's no change in absolutely anything. And so think about this like we just said. If he heard an internal doorbell going off, an alarm, a chime or something, you would have seen a pause, you would have seen a startle. If there's someone out in the driveway, if there's something else going on, there would have been a pause. And also, if this was his first time at this door, there'd be apprehension, there'd be pauses, there'd be looking around, there'd be scoping things out. He seemed very fluid in all his motions and everything he was executing, even when bowing down to get a branch, which is like the dumbest looking thing I've ever seen. But he just seemed on mission. Very, very methodical too. So this was actually planned out okay,
- [36:54]
Nancy Grace
Robin Drake, here is the leap. Let's follow through your reasoning to its logical conclusion. What can I learn? What can I prove from what you're telling me? Who is he?
- [37:13]
Robin Dreek
So he's someone that I believe is at least one degree of separation from Nancy in some capacity whatsoever. The other thing that I think that law enforcement is doing based on these observations of his fluidity in this environment, is that go to the other houses. I'm sure they're doing this canvassing other houses. And I would do it within a 1 to 300 mile radius of this house, of this dwelling because other ring cams should have picked up on this because if he's done this before, it's going to be on someone else's ring cam, nest cam or something like that. People need to check. When you wake up in the morning, you should be checking those things to see what happened the night before because those are going to be the other leads. And that's how they're piecing these data points together behind the scenes that we're not seeing right now. And again, going and going. He is definitely targeting something or someone in that house. It is targeted. Well, what that is is what we don't know. I'm just analyzing the sheriff's for all the controversies going around. He's been saying a lot of things. And the last thing he says that people need to be on a look at and aware, believe it or not, you mentioned Ramsey as well as you know, if you want to even look at Elizabeth Smart, when the sheriffs are saying people need to be on the lookout, they were actually using different language than he was when being on the lookout for things. He was actually using language of a targeted burglary, typically not a home, not a home invasion for abduction. So it's just interesting. Again, he could be way off on the things he's saying, as he has been sometimes. But it's an interesting tell.
- [38:35]
Nancy Grace
Robin Drake, you are mentioning that this suggests the perp has broken in or home invaded before. What I'm asking you now, a more refined question is what does this behavior tell you as it relates, relates to Nancy Guthrie, not other instances, maybe 300 miles away. But is this a neighbor? Is this a day laborer? Is it somebody off that construction crew? They're not in a hurry. Does this suggest to you it's possible that vacant home was used as a staging area? He doesn't need a car parked out in front. He doesn't need to jump in with the wingman, the getaway driver, because he's going to walk through that backyard. We don't see him walking up the front. So where did he come from? Did he walk through that backyard? Her back store neighbor, where the dog went crazy around 2am where is the vacant home? Is that why he's not in a hurry? He doesn't have to run into a waiting car. He can go right across the street and through the backyard. What do you make of that?
- [39:47]
Robin Dreek
Yeah, I definitely think that's a possibility. And that new evidence and ideas being out there is definitely something they must look at. I know it's challenging, that environment because the hard packed ground and the nature of the desert and I definitely, as we've been saying, there's some sort of connection, a personal, maybe not personal with Nancy herself, but personal with the dwelling itself, that he's been there and without having that need to flee. And because there's no panic here. And that's what we're not seeing. We're not seeing any sort of panic or rushed movement. And it's just very telling.
- [40:24]
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- [42:01]
Nancy Grace
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Nancy Grace
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- [43:37]
Nancy Grace
with Nancy Grace Savannah Guthrie's mother Nancy Guthrie missing this as we learn that construction site dumps are being searched for what? We also learn more about the process that Nanos and the FBI is employing to get a DNA match. Is it possible? Also tonight, careful analysis of blood on Nancy Guthrie's porch is telling us a very different story. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Pima County Sheriffs is asking now for footage of vehicles in the neighborhood, a white vehicle seen in the maze of streets surrounding Nancy's home.
- [44:41]
Joe Scott Morgan
Because if they can tie that back to a suspect here, this is going to be critical. Moving forward with the case, specifically to
- [44:49]
Nancy Grace
whoever has her or knows where she is, that it's never too late and you're not lost or alone and it is never too late to do the right thing. And we are here. We believe, and we believe in the essential goodness of every human being. Straight out to Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter. We know that the feds are now trying to question work crews on a construction site, one in particular and maybe more. In Nancy Guthrie's neighborhood. We now know that dump sites used by construction crews are being searched. What do you know? What can you tell me?
- [45:54]
Dave Mack
We know that the investigation has really gotten into these construction sites, Nancy, to identify all personnel, including daily contractors who have come in. They're trying to identify not just people, but you mentioned the trash. They're trying to determine where trash is being taken. Where are the dump sites for these individual homes that are being under construction? Is there one place in particular that it's being taken, or are there multiple? They're identifying places that they can look into dump sites from the construction sites.
- [46:30]
Nancy Grace
Okay. That is a very, very difficult task. I have worked on dump site searches. You have to break it down into grid searches. It's really, really hard to do with me. Professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. But more important, death investigator with over 10,000 death inquiries under his belt. A dump site grid search. I'm not saying we're looking for Nancy Guthrie's body. That's not what I'm saying. I think they're looking for something else. How do you go about a grid search if they are looking at construction crew dumplings sites?
- [47:20]
Joe Scott Morgan
Okay, understand this when you're talking about searching any kind of landfill, all right? And it all works on the same principle. Whether it's household. Household debris, or whether it is construction, people just don't go in there and randomly dump stuff. They do have the thing broken up into grids. And, Nancy, here's something else. And this is always a clue that we look for when we're searching these kinds of locations. Did you know that those grids have specific dates, like when these things would have been picked up, where they were deposited? Because you cannot continue to deposit things in the same location over and over again. It has to be. It has to be organized in order to facilitate this. The one difficult part that I have always found in any of these things I've ever searched is that you have. You have equipment that runs over. Over the stuff to kind of pack it down. And that creates an absolute nightmare for investigators when they go out there to begin to search.
- [48:18]
Nancy Grace
Well, there's all sorts of issues with a construction site search. I'm curious about what they could be looking for. When you hear a search of a dump or a landfill, you immediately think they're looking for a body. That is not necessarily true, Joe. Scott.
- [48:38]
Joe Scott Morgan
No, it's not. And, you know, listen, if somebody has been involved in some kind of nefarious activity. And they have one of these big dumpsters, all right, that you see at construction sites. And they're putting things in there specifically. And look, it could be biological material, something organic that's going to break down. That's one of the problems that you run into with these sites is because they are. This is an aerobic environment, which means it's, it's oxygenated. And that means that anything that's in there that is organic breaks down very, very quickly and it compromises evidence. But if there's other things, say for instance, if there's any kind of tools, any, any bits of wood that may have been associated with something that was involved in a crime, that's going to be there as. Wait there as well. And here's one of the problems that you run into. It's something called co mingling. So you get evidence that's kind of tied up together, and it can come from other sites. Because a of lot on the day that a specific grid has stuff dumped from location A and B and C, you're confined to that spot. But that stuff gets commingled, mashed down and kind of turned around.
- [49:47]
Nancy Grace
Joining us in all star panel, in addition to Joseph Scott Morgan joining us from Jacksonville State University, Brian Fitzgibbons is with US Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security, leading a team of experts to find missing people around the world. Former Marine, Iraqi war vet, now at USPA Nationwide Security. The search of landfills, it's horrible. Very often the searchers have to use hazmat outfits. They can be out there in the sun, sweating, sweltering in those hazmat outfits. What could they be searching for? And one of the reasons, Brian, I say I don't think it's search for her body is because we've heard nothing about the use of cadaver dogs.
- [50:31]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yeah, spot on. I believe here that they'd be searching for pieces of any pieces of physical evidence that could have been removed from the scene. And what's important to remember about these landfill searches is that authorities will have a very good idea from the landfill on where this trash was deposited based on a specific timeline. So as they're going around looking at these contractor bins, they're going to have to research that differently than residential service. So they're going to find, you know, what contractors had large trash receptacles in the area, what the schedule was for pickup, where they were bringing them, and that could vary. It may not be the same location, the same transfer centers that the Residential trash would be going.
- [51:25]
Nancy Grace
Dave Mack. Another theory emerging and I just want to bat this down immediately, that Nancy Guthrie is missing because Savannah Guthrie had a stalker. Okay, so what is the report on Savannah Guthrie's stalker? Did she have a stalker? What do we know?
- [51:48]
Dave Mack
No, there is no confirmed idea that Savannah Guthrie has or had a stalker. This is another part of the armchair detectives that are prevalent when a main story like this goes out and people try to find a working idea of how it could be solved and what could have been the motive. But no, this is not something that has been brought about by legitimate investigation.
- [52:15]
Nancy Grace
Okay, the question is being bandied about. Could Nancy Guthrie have been targeted by a Savannah Guthrie stalker? I find that extremely fantastical. I want to go out to Scott Eicher, founding member of the FBI cellular analysis survey team. He was in robbery homicide over a decade in Norfolk, Virginia PD he is now with precision cellular analysis. Scott, Fantastical. No, again, my favorite phrase. Sounds like a fifth grade girl's novel. When you have a stalker, they go after you. They don't find your 84 year old grandma in the middle of the desert and cart her away in the middle of the night. That's not how stalkers operate. And in my mind, throwing out theories like this and calling them into the 911 tip line is wasting valuable time.
- [53:18]
Scott Eicher
Iker I agree that's wasting time to an extent. You know, as we know, stalkers, they want to be seen by the person they're stalking, right? They want the attention by that person. So in that vein, there might be an indication that, hey, if I mess with the family, I'll get the attention. But you hardly ever see that happening. It's usually against the primary victim. You know, in this case, if she had a stalker, it would be Savannah. If we had information, concrete information about a stalker, I'm sure we would have heard about it by now.
- [54:01]
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- [54:33]
Serious Fun Narrator
that childhood should be about curiosity, freedom, figuring out who you are and even running a little bit wild. But for many kids living with medical challenges. The experience is more like hospital rooms, medical treatments, and rules about what's safe. That's why legendary actor and philanthropist Paul Newman founded Serious Fun, a network of medically supported camps and programs that give kids living with serious illnesses the chance to, as he put it, raise a little hell. At Serious Fun Camps, kids get to experience the thrill of flying down a zipline, participate in talent shows, sing songs around the campfire, and make lifelong friends who truly understand their journey. And thanks to skilled volunteer medical specialists and staff, every activity is tailored to each child's unique health requirements to ensure they have the experience of a lifetime. Best of all, camp is always free for campers and their families. This is where you come in. You can help deserving children experience the freedom and fun they never thought possible. To get involved, visit seriousfun.org that's serious
- [55:37]
Nancy Grace
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- [57:15]
Nancy Grace
that Savannah had a stalker that nobody knows about and they carried through their twisted ideas and then executed them upon her mother. Okay, Karen Stark joining us. You know her well, forensic psychologist, renowned TV, radio, trauma expert@karen stark.com. that's Karen with a C. You and I have had to deal with, with a lot of stalkers, with all of your patients, with cases that I prosecuted with my own stalkers. This is not how they operate. Karen Stark, definitely not Nancy.
- [57:51]
Joe Scott Morgan
And it just doesn't make sense to
- [57:52]
Nancy Grace
me that there would actually be a
- [57:55]
Joe Scott Morgan
stalker who's after Savannah and somehow they wind up with Nancy. I mean, there have been so many theories that have been thrown out that to me, this just looks like one more. Stalkers do not behave like this. They follow the person that they're interested in, and it's endless and difficult to catch them actually doing it. But this is not that kind of a case. This is her mother. I really believe that whatever this was about, it's about Nancy Guthrie, not Savannah.
- [58:30]
Nancy Grace
A lot happening in the search for Nancy Guthrie as construction site dumps are being reviewed. The stalker theory emerging. In addition to all of that, a careful analysis of Nancy Guthrie's porch, when you pull back and look at it, is very revealing. Take a look at this, Jo Scott Morgan, the video you're seeing now from our friends at Fox News gives us a better look than just a few drops at the very beginning. You're seeing right now why a cast mold was not, not possible with the walkway. But we're seeing a longer stretch. More information about the blood trail. What do you see, Joe? Scott Morgan?
- [59:22]
Joe Scott Morgan
Well, I see what. What I would interpret as passive. Passive blood deposition. And what that means is we're talking about gravitational blood drop where it falls to the earth. You don't have any projected blood. Okay. So with projected blood, you'll see these little tails that come off of the actual blood droplet itself as it's flying through the air. And it gives you an idea of direction. Nancy, this is something. These blood droplets that you're seeing here are something that probably have fallen from a reasonable height, maybe in the three foot range, and they're dropping straight down and impacting the ground. You see, do you see this area right here that we're looking at right now with this walkway? Those blood droplets appear very uneven. Those can be easily misinterpreted. Well, the reason they're uneven is because that's not a smooth surface. But you get up onto the stoop there and you've got this area where you have this kind of ceramic tile where it's a very kind of even surface. There's a lot to be interpreted here. So we know that that's her blood. They've commented on that. So what would have to happen is she must be moving, all right, or her body, her person is being moved. Let me rephrase that. At least a three foot height and this blood is, is free flowing through the air. That's what we call gravitational drop. And it's dependent, deposited right there. This is not like when we think about classic blood spatter. You know, you and I have talked extensively about things like cast off and all these things. This dynamic, that's not what you're seeing here. This is not something that has tremendous velocity behind it. This is something that is, is issuing forth from an injury. I still hold based upon some of those blood droplets that I saw, particularly adjacent to the doorway.
- [61:14]
Nancy Grace
Hold on, hold on, hold on. Joe Scott. Guys, the video you were seeing was from Fox News, but I want to put up the still so our viewers can see what Joe Scott is talking about. Because as you look at it, what he's saying makes a lot of sense. The video doesn't really show it as well as the still photo of that blood.
- [61:35]
Joe Scott Morgan
So as you see it right here, it's depositing in, in kind of a, a linear fashion here. And you can't really interpret which way movement is going. Are they moving toward the door? Away from the door? All we know is that there's blood deposition. Now you can look at the margins of it to say, okay, it never extended beyond about 2 or 3ft in width. So you can kind of superimpose a path over that if you will. But directionality is very hard to determine with this because you don't have any, any indication of flight of the blood. You know that it's dropping straight down. Okay. And these don't really vary in height, Nancy. So the higher the blood, the greater the deposition of blood or when that spherical. Because blood people don't know. This blood actually falls through the air in a perfect sphere. Many people don't understand that. And as it strikes that dynamicism of it kind of spreads it out. Well, these are not spread like greatly. Like if you're talking about blood dropping from, I don't know, a height of like 10ft, the droplets are going to look different than that. That's why I'm saying this is within about a three foot range, maybe four feet. It's dropping straight down. So what could happen? Is she being carried at this point in time? And a lot of people have talked about was she wrapped in anything? I think that she's bleeding rather significantly here. But if she was wrapped in anything.
- [62:58]
Nancy Grace
Hold on, hold on. You're saying she's bleeding significantly. And just recently, recently, another forensic scientist has thrown out the theory that she was, quote. It doesn't really sound scientific, but I get what the expert is saying was, quote, bleeding pretty badly. Yeah, but earlier you had told me you thought this looked as if it were a nosebleed and there's a little bit of aspiration on it from the nose or the mouth.
- [63:26]
Joe Scott Morgan
Yeah, yeah. And when you see the tiny little. Little droplets contained in there, there's one cluster shot that they have there. These tiny little droplets that looks like S is called expirated blood, because you're expirating it. You know, think Travis Alexander. Okay, so that's expirated blood. You. You don't see that in any of these other droplets. That deposition, that's, like, where we're looking at, like, the one o' clock position in that. That's almost like a sneeze or a cough or something. And then it's moving away. Nancy, do you see those little white areas in the larger droplets?
- [63:59]
Nancy Grace
Yeah, I do.
- [64:00]
Joe Scott Morgan
That. That implies to me, Nancy, that this is aerated blood. In other words, it's coming from the nasopharynx area. Okay. So if you've got some kind of trauma to your nose, your mouth, that sort of thing, it's. It's got air in it. It's just not. It's not like cutting around.
- [64:16]
Nancy Grace
It's more like a mist.
- [64:18]
Joe Scott Morgan
Yeah, it is a mist.
- [64:19]
Nancy Grace
Kind of.
- [64:20]
Joe Scott Morgan
It's.
- [64:20]
Nancy Grace
Okay. Hey, I want you to look at something else. And I want Eichor and Karen Stark, Brian Fitzgibbons, everybody. Look at this. We've also got Tammy Ballard, DNA expert. Can I see that photo you were just showing? You see the disturbance of the gravel on top of the blood? Scott Eichor, let me go back to you. Formerly with the FBI now a precision cellular analysis. I recall distinctly a case I prosecuted and investigated at the special behest of the elected district attorney. And I was very worried because it was originally deemed a suicide. And my boss wanted me to make sure it wasn't a homicide. Well, long story short, Iker, the victim was found naked. A female was found naked in her bed. Number one statistics say that doesn't happen, that a female commits while naked. Why? Don't know. I just know that it's true. She's lying in bed, right? And head on, pillow takes a gun. Bam. That's the working theory. But with a blood expert like Joe Scott, man, he was awesome, too. We put the sheets up with light behind it. And we found blood spatter under her pillow, which means her lying there like that and going, bam, could never have happened. Right. So it's not rocket science. You just have to know what you're looking for. And this is telling me something, something I'm not sure what. Let's see the picture again, Iker, that the rocks and the gravel are distributed on top of the blood. What does that mean? Are they helping her out? Do they have their hands under her armpits and they're, you know, hitting the gravel as they're walking and she's already come out, she's bleeding and the gravel gets on top of the blood as they're futzing around trying to hold her up. Up. What do you read into it, Eicher?
- [66:31]
Scott Eicher
Well, I agree with just Scott Morgan. This is definitely a pool of blood that looks like it was spit out or, you know, sneezed out. What I also see is not only some of the rocks is parts of that bush or the branch that is still at the front of the door there. And that's in stuck in some of the blood droplets there. So, you know, we know that all kind of occurred around the same time. He goes to the front door, he gets the branch. How, how he got her out through that, that security door, we don't know. But it appears to me that that's happening all at the same time. That's why some of that branch is stuck into the blood area.
- [67:16]
Nancy Grace
Okay, hold on just a moment. We're looking at the gravel and that's the security door we're going to talk about in just a few moments, guys. But that said, Joe Scott, what do you make about the gravel being on top of the blood?
- [67:29]
Joe Scott Morgan
Yeah, I've had my own opinions about this. It, for me, part of it goes to lack of security at the scene. You've got everybody and their brother walking up to this door. And so anytime you do that. That's why we take great care at crime scenes, Nancy, because you don't know what you're going to be kicking about and not taking your time. You're talking about people showing up at the door. Of course, this is. Keep in mind, thanks to Fox for providing this. However, this is not a crime scene image we're looking at. This is media personnel that have generated this and this should not be happening. Somebody had access to it.
- [68:07]
Nancy Grace
Oh, I am so angry right now. I'm so angry. Brian Fitzgibbons, you and I have gone over and over and over what Joe Scott is saying. The scene was not secured. Pizza delivery guys were going up there, journalists, journalists were going up there. So now, if the gravel on top of the blood did mean something, we can never prove it. Now, it could have meant all sorts of things. It could have told us how she was maneuvered out, how she may have been falling backwards and back and forth and getting over in that gravel, or the perp had kicked it over in his effort to carry her or get her out of the home. But we can't prove anything now because the scene was destroyed because Nano released it. He released the scene?
- [69:09]
Brian Fitzgibbons
Yeah. There was a span of, I believe it was 24 to 48 hours where that scene was not held initially released. You had doordash drivers walking up to the front, journalists. And you'll even notice, Nancy, in that photo, the foliage that the porch suspect used is still lying on the ground. That wasn't even collected initially as evidence. It's still lying there on the ground. So, you know what, what evidentiary. Evidentiary value in court of those rocks, I don't know.
- [69:49]
Nancy Grace
Well done. If it's brought up by the state, the defense can shoot it down because the scene was not kept secure. There's no chain of custody, so to speak. So it could have had those rocks, could have gotten there in any way. If they ever did prove anything, it won't be worth anything in court because it will be attacked on cross. Guys joining me right now, Tammy Ballard, DNA crime scene consultant, crime scene investigation reconstructionist, former DNA criminalist for the San Diego Police Department, crime labor. Tammy, thank you for being with us. I'd like to understand regardless of what Nanos is saying about how blood analysis could take up to a year. Not true. I'd like to understand what you believe is happening right now with the stranger DNA that was absolutely found in the home. We do know it did not match up to Mrs. Guthrie, her family, or any of the workers in the home. Let's just go with genetic genealogy is being conducted right now. What's happening?
- [70:59]
Tammy Ballard
They are dealing with mixtures again. The goal is to find a DNA sample that is going to be suitable to do genealogy. That's your first hurdle. So the limitations with forensic genealogy happen to be related mostly on the front end with this type of scenario as far as mixtures go. So if they have a complex mixture three, four contributors, that's going to be something that they have to overcome with genealogy, which is definitely a limitation. Let's assume they develop a profile suitable for genealogy. Next you've got to figure out starting the tree building You've got to start getting the sample into databases. You're only as good as who's in your database, how many people are in your database and working from there. Then you have the populations. If you have a Hispanic population, a Hispanic genealogy search that you're going to have to do, maybe that's going to put in some additional hurdles into your search. So, you know, I always highlight the successes of the cases like the Rachel Marin case, you know, sad tragic murder case where her perpetrator was from El Salvador. That's a very difficult search for genealogy. But that happened in record time because it was a great group of genealogists that were able to determine who this individual was. So that's the hope for this case is you get a good solid profile and you're able to get that into the databases. You're building your trees and you've got a great team of genealogists assisting.
- [72:46]
Nancy Grace
Hi guys. Nancy Grace here. Please join us on Crime Stories and stream it first on Fox 1. When Breaking Crime news develops, we investigate it and bring it to you. Bombshell updates, answers to unanswered questions from cases making the headlines and cases you may never have heard of. Until crime stories we go inside investigations with exclusive interviews, crime victims, families seeking justice, investigators, experts and sources from within the case itself. Stay on top of the nation's biggest trials with us, including gavel to gavel coverage with real time analysis. Crime Stories with Nancy grace. Stream it first on Fox 1. I hope to see you there and thank you, friend. Right now the blood is being subjected to genetic genealogy testing. We believe it's a blood DNA sample out of the home. How long will it take? Will it work? That we don't know. But the cutting edge technology of genetic genealogy is ongoing. Was the ransom ever paid?
- [74:03]
Scott Eicher
Listen, Harvey Levin, we received an alleged ransom note that we forwarded on to the authorities, to the sheriff's department. The FBI called us a few hours
- [74:14]
Joe Scott Morgan
later, wanted to had a bunch of questions about that note.
- [74:19]
Dave Mack
There are deadlines, I say plural deadlines in this letter and one is looming
- [74:27]
Scott Eicher
right when the family is reaching out
- [74:29]
Joe Scott Morgan
to say we're ready to talk. This letter suggests no talk, right?
- [74:38]
Dave Mack
That was made clear right at the beginning.
- [74:41]
Nancy Grace
We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us and we will pay. Many people question was the ransom ever paid and if not, why? To a special guest joining us, Scott Eicher, as well as Brian Fitzgibbons. Let me first start with you, Fitz. You go around the world with your team trying to find missing people. Oh, by the way, that video is from our friend Harvey Levin at tmz. We heard Savannah stating over and over, we're listening. We're here. We will pay. I don't believe a ransom was ever paid. See, I would have rushed in immediately and paid the ransom. And as it turned out, I highly doubt that that ransom note was legit. Fits.
- [75:45]
Brian Fitzgibbons
I agree. It was missing two essential things. Proprietary information and proof of life. Those are two things that, in a typical kidnap and ransom case, will immediately be delivered. The second thing is, it wasn't delivered to the family. Right. This went to a media outlet, so, of course, the family and law enforcement had to. To take this very seriously at the time. But I think as we sit here, you know, on day 48, it's pretty clear that these were not authentic.
- [76:19]
Nancy Grace
Well, there was another issue to you, Scott Eichert. Well, I agree with what you said, Fitz, but, A, there was never proof of life ever presented. B, they never contacted the family directly, as Fitz just told you. But, Scott Eicher, another issue I have is the delay, because obviously, this is not a. This is not a burglary. This is not a robbery. None of that happened. When you go in to commit a burglary, don't go, oh, my stars. Are somebody home? I think I'll take her with me. That. That. No, that's not how it works. So, obviously, one of the only choices left is ransom. But typically, ransom requests happen immediately so the victim's family can get the money together and start the negotiation. There was never a negotiation. All there was was a bitcoin manner of payment, and without any proof of life. And with the delay in submitting the ransom, I just don't believe it was valid.
- [77:30]
Scott Eicher
I totally agree. And that last point you made, that it needs to be immediate after the kidnapping and directly to the family, I think, are some of the most important parts of it. I mean, proof of life, that's obviously something that Savannah initially wanted. But if you remember, in some of the later videos, she was just kind of more leaning towards, hey, we want our mom back, whatever condition she's in. Either way, I think the law enforcement, the FBI, and the sheriff's office evaluated those with the behavioral analysis unit, analyzing the wording, analyzing whether it's real or not. And I don't think any of it was real. I think that. I don't think the ransom Was paid. And that's why we still are in this type of situation and have nothing to go on at this point.
- [78:20]
Nancy Grace
Also tonight, I want to look at the security door on Nancy Guthrie's front porch. Let's see that. Now, according to a neighbor, this was practically burglar proof. What about it, Dave Mack?
- [78:32]
Dave Mack
You know, you're exactly right, Nancy. A neighbor came forward to say they have the same security door and they are impenetrable. You cannot break in through the front door with that security door there. That was what she said, that there's no way anybody got through that front door.
- [78:49]
Nancy Grace
I don't know if I agree with that. Could it be. Could it be subjected to a lock pick? Joe Scott, would that work? I mean, I'm not saying break the door down. I'm saying a lock pick.
- [79:04]
Joe Scott Morgan
Yeah, but. Okay, here's. Here's the deal, Particularly with tool marks. If you look at that deadbolt that's at the top, hopefully they've documented that very, very well. If they suspected that, you could see pick marks there and also you would look for any other tool marks. That's a great shot right there. Do you see that guard that's on the right? One of the things here, when you think about the preventative nature of this, can it defeat. Can a pry bar defeat that? I would say probably not without raising a huge ruckus in this area. And just looking at that, it doesn't look like there's any kind of insult to that margin there, but the. The lock themselves, I suppose if somebody was skilled enough, they could probably pick it, but it would take some time to do that. Nancy.
- [79:51]
Nancy Grace
Guys, if you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of Mrs. Guthrie, please dial toll free 800-225-5324. Or if you wish to remain anonymous, 520-882-7463. There is a 101.2 plus million dollar reward. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.
- [80:29]
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Nancy Grace
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Scott Eicher
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Dave Mack
Well, most people drive about 40 miles
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Joe Scott Morgan
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Dave Mack
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Scott Eicher
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Nancy Grace
But they don't need to know that.
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Joe Scott Morgan
And the best part?
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Scott Eicher
You won't have to buy gas at all.
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Dave Mack
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Nancy Grace
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Joe Scott Morgan
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Dave Mack
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Nancy Grace
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Dave Mack
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Dave Mack
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Nancy Grace
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