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Nancy Grace (2:11)

Savannah Guthrie's mother Nancy Guthrie missing Day 55 tonight breaking down what Savannah Guthrie said in her heartbreaking interview. Through all of that pain, the tears, the angst, there are facts, facts previously unknown. For instance, why was the back door propped open and still propped open when sister Annie arrives? Yet we know Mrs. Guthrie went out the front door because that was her blood. Tonight, a careful and close up look at at the blood. Does it actually reveal a shoe print? Also breaking down what Savannah has revealed to us. Does she believe there is one perp as Opposed to multiple perps. Also, she says she believes 2 of the ransom notes were real. And if so, what can we learn from that? And many more revelations that we have pieced together from Savannah's own words. Good. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. In every investigation, you have to examine every single fact for what, if anything, it can prove. We learned a lot by careful analysis of what Savannah has told us.

Savannah Guthrie (3:41)

Listen, I mean, from the very early moments, you know, Annie and Tommy were saying, this isn't. This isn't that case that you are used to where someone wanders off. She can't wander off.

Dr. Geralyn Utter (3:54)

My mom,

Savannah Guthrie (3:56)

she was in tremendous pain. Her back was very bad. You know, she was trying to. On a good day, she could walk down to the mailbox and get the mail, but most days, not. So there was no wander off. And the doors were popped open.

Nancy Grace (4:13)

Yeah.

Savannah Guthrie (4:14)

And there was blood on the front doorstep. And the ring camera had been yanked off.

Nancy Grace (4:21)

Yeah.

Savannah Guthrie (4:22)

And so we were saying this is.

Jeff Gentry (4:25)

Do something.

Savannah Guthrie (4:25)

This is not okay. Yeah, this isn't. Something is very wrong here.

Nancy Grace (4:31)

Yeah, I know. It is very difficult. It hurts to watch Savannah's pain. But in order to analyze a case, you have to listen to every single word, no matter how agonizing it is. She is giving a name and a face to what crime victims go through every day in this country. But very often, they're never heard. A good investigator will listen very carefully to each and every word, parse it out, and see what can be used to solve the case. First of all, door still propped open when Annie Guthrie arrives. Why? Why did the perp want the door still propped open in the back? Joining me in all star panel, to make sense of what we are learning, I want to go straight out to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us. Director operations, USPA nationwide security, leading a team of investigators around the world finding, extracting missing people. Former Marine, Iraqi war vet. Okay, what does this mean now? To me, it means there were likely two perps. One was coming in the back, and we heard that at the beginning. And I'll circle back to Dave Mack on that. The entry was made through the back, and the front door was not broken into. Now we're hearing that resounding again, the back door propped open. Interesting sub question. Why not just open the door and go in and out? Why did you have to prop it open? Some would say, well, to carry Nancy Guthrie out, but she went out the front. So what do you make of it? What can we learn?

Brian Fitzgibbons (6:11)

Yeah, I think. I think what it Tells us, first of all is it confirms the initial reports that entry was initially gained through the rear of the residence. The second thing you know, when I hear door propped open, I think that I'm propping that open to come in and out, or that there's someone following me close behind, you know, that I'll gain entry and someone else is coming, you know, within a matter of minutes, not right away. So I think we learn a little bit more and it adds color to that 40 minute time span that we believe the perpetrators were on the property.

Nancy Grace (6:52)

Okay, so you told me a little bit more than I posed in my question. Okay, so you kind of mirrored what I said, but you threw me a little bone there, Fitzgibbons, and I'm gonna run with it. Also. Why are we hearing about this just now? Why are we hearing about it just now? To Scott Eicher, founding member of CAST cellular analysis survey team in the FBI. Also Norfolk, Virginia PD, 12 years, homicide now at Precision Cellular Analysis. Jeffrey, and all of your years at the FBI, do you believe the FBI is not happy Savannah revealed that fact or okay with it?

Scott Eicher (7:41)

Well, there's two different aspects here. You can't control the victim's family. We've learned that over the years. We try to instruct them on what should be released and what shouldn't be released. I don't think Savannah broke any real rules here. She's trying to keep this case into the public eye, and that's important for her mother and for her family. So a little bit of information like the back door propped open sure does help us reevaluate the evidence that we're seeing. And you got to remember, we're not seeing all the evidence. The police department and the FBI need to keep things quiet until they've solved the case.

Nancy Grace (8:19)

Scott Eichor, you're right. Another thing we learned from Savannah. And I'm going to play for you what Savannah has just said in the last hours. More information, but analyzing what we have already heard. She says her mom not wearing shoes and taken out of the home wearing PJs. Is that right? Dave Mack, Is that what she said?

Dave Mack (8:46)

It's exactly what she said. That she was snagged from her bed in the middle of the night in her PJs with no shoes.

Nancy Grace (8:53)

Let's take a listen to Savannah.

Savannah Guthrie (8:55)

It is surreal. It's. How is it possible that we are having to make a video speaking to a kidnapper who took an 84 year old woman in the dead of night in her pajamas with no shoes? Without her medicine, this little person and to beg for mercy from our friends

Nancy Grace (9:32)

at today, YouTube again. It's really hard and I have done it for years and years and years listening to victims, witnesses tell heart wrenching stories and hurt. Pain comes through the camera lens and I believe it's genuine. I believe everything Savannah said was genuine and accurate because who would know the facts better than a family member. She's been through all the FBI briefings, she's talked to Annie, she's talked to Cameron, she knows what's happening in the investigation and she says no shoes, wearing PJs. Now I want to throw something else in on that. If she didn't have in her hearing aids, and we know there was a pair of hearing aids there, if she left without hearing aids, unless she had that second pair. That has been the source of speculation. I doubt very seriously that she didn't need glasses. I doubt an 84 year old woman had 2020 in 2019. So if she doesn't have her hearing aids and she doesn't have her glasses, she's basically blind and deaf. She has no idea what is happening to her. She doesn't have on shoes, she's wearing PJs. I mean an 84 year old, I just keep thinking about my own mom, 94, living with us, someone doing that to her. She'd have no comprehension of what was going on at 2 o' clock in the morning. But this brings up a question to Scott Eicher with cellular analysis survey team who explained to us before it happened how Google and or Apple could possibly scratch down the days on video and find video and then poof, it happened. Is there other video that we don't know about? How do they know that Mrs. Guthrie didn't have on shoes and was wearing her PJs?

Scott Eicher (11:49)

I believe they're still digging for video. You got to remember we're relying on Google. The FBI or the sheriff's department can't get into the Google system. So we're relying on Google but constantly pressuring them to continue to work down through that sets of data to try to find snippets of information. And maybe they have and the investigation has it, but they haven't released it. But either way they're going to continue.

Nancy Grace (12:14)

Why would they do that? My question is, do you believe there's more video? Do you believe that's where they got the information that she was barefoot and had on her PJs?

Scott Eicher (12:26)

I can only speculate. Yes, there's more video but. And why would they not release something that would indicate that maybe it's too much too shocking. And maybe it's the family saying, hey, we don't want video of our mother being drugged out of the house. We don't want that being on the air. And I wouldn't blame them.

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Nancy Grace (13:58)

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Nancy Grace (14:47)

use of its intellectual property. AARP and its affiliates are not insurers. Savings vary. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace to Jeffrey Gentry, Board Certified Bloodstain Pattern Analyst, Senior Crime Scene Analyst, Death Investigator, Former Toxicology Lab Analyst and author of Forensic Science Application to Death and Crime Scene Investigations Also, which comes into play later on tonight. Bloodstained Pattern analysis. Also author of death investigation information to obtain during a forensic death investigation. Jeff, thank you for being with us. There are other explanations as to how they know Mrs. Guthrie was wearing her PJs and that she didn't have on shoes. For instance, my mom does this. I set her shoes out right by the bed in case she gets up. Even if she's sitting on her loveseat listening to Andrea Bocelli on and on and on. I have her shoes sitting right there for her to just slip her feet into. What if that is her M.O. like my mom's? So what if they get there, Jeffrey, and they see the slippers? They're still there. Okay, go with me on this. We know that the brother in law took her home the night before from dinner. What if he took her in and waited for her to get on her PJs and then those PJs were gone the next morning? It's 2 and 2 equals 4. I've spoken to countless family members when victims go missing, like runaways, and the parent knows what the child is wearing because it's missing. Like I know what shoes my mom has. I would know if some were missing. It's. That could be a reasonable explanation. What do you think, Jeff Gentry?

Jeff Gentry (16:48)

There's a couple possibilities. One, it's the family just making assumptions. I mean, they assume that their mother went to bed with no shoes on, and they assume that she was taken out of bed and immediately walked out the door without putting her shoes on. That's one possibility. The other possibility is that the family has more information that they're just not disclosing. And in any criminal investigation, you can't expect that everything that the police or the FBI has is going to be released to the public. That just does not happen. So I do believe that there is a lot more information out there that we're not being allowed access to right now just because they're keeping it tight to their investigation for when they get this suspect in custody. But those are the different possibilities is just family assumptions versus the police. Investigators have shared information with the family that is just not being disclosed to the public. And I think that is very much a realistic possibility in this case.

Nancy Grace (17:38)

Joining us, Dr. Geralyn Utter. She is a clinical psychologist specializing in psychological evaluations, author of Mainlining Philly, also author of Aftershock, how past events shake up your life today, and producer of utter nonsense. Dr. Jerilyn Utter, thank you for being with us, Dr. Jerilyn. Many people find it hard to believe that you Would know your mom's shoes, how many she has and what's missing. Same thing with my children. I know what shoes they have and what they wear every single day. It's not that hard. So why is that so difficult for people to believe? And is it possible?

Dr. Geralyn Utter (18:21)

I think with this, Nancy, you have a media case, Right. And there are people out there that are interested in the salaciousness of, you know, I can't believe, you know, that they wouldn't know that or know this. But let's think about, you know, human behavior and patterns and people who are close to their mom. Clearly, when you look at Savannah's interview, she's very, very close to her mom, very attached to her mom. Her siblings are as well. So it's completely plausible that, to your point, that they would know and understand, you know, what slippers she has. Maybe she has corrective shoes. Maybe she has certain slippers that she wears at night. Maybe there's certain pajamas she wears. Another thing, too, when you think about, you know, her making the assumption perhaps, that her mom's pajamas are. We're on. Makes complete sense, because if somebody or perpetrator came into the house and abducted her and said, hey, we want you to change. They're not going to take the time perhaps, to discard. Discard the clothing. It would probably be lying around or. Or somewhere around the house. So when you look about, when you look at patterns of human behavior. Yes. It makes a lot of sense when you're close with your mother, you're close with your children, that you would know what kind of, you know, what kind of clothes they have if they're outside. All of that makes complete sense.

Nancy Grace (19:27)

Well, another thing, we just showed a photo of Mrs. Guthrie with a cane. Like, my mom has certain shoes that feel better than others. Some of them are special shoes for her feet. I would not be surprised if Mrs. Guthrie had, let's just say, 10 pair of special shoes. And that's what she wore, and that's what was in her closet. And also, I had to go out of town last night for work, and the last thing I did before I went to bed was I FaceTimed my mother. And I saw her, obviously, and I saw what she had on. Sometimes she's too tired to put on PJs at the end of the day, and she'll sleep in her little jogging outfit. I saw what she had on. How do I know they didn't have a FaceTime? I don't know that. But there's more than one way to skin A cat. There's more than one answer other than there is secret video that we don't know about. Also, guys, as we go to air tonight, we are learning that people have come to Mrs. Guthrie's home and they're taking items out in boxes. What does that mean? Is it evidence? Family keepsakes? Stuff the family doesn't want their left attended? We don't know. Could be evidence. And if so, why now? What has become significant now to take out of the home that you didn't think about the first 10 times you were reviewing the home? Also, we are learning and I don't really know how much credence to give to this about another note, a letter sent to the media that states the sender is apologizing, claiming they didn't realize how serious Ms. Guthrie's heart condition was and that she has, quote, gone to be with God. I don't believe that. That screams BS to me. I mean, think about it, Gentry. The kidnapper is going to risk giving his identity away by some apology and even mentioning God. This guy was not worried about his reckoning day or meeting his maker when he stole Mrs. Guthrie. So some a hole is sending a bogus letter yet again. What do you think? Could it be real?

Jeff Gentry (21:50)

I don't see the suspect as apologizing for anything. They feel like they're in the clear. Now, it's been how many days since she went missing and there's still no solid leads, no arrests, no good suspects in custody. So this person probably believes that they're in the clear. And why would they have any reason to apologize for anything? They. They're still carrying out their plan. So I. I don't see that as being a realistic possibility.

Nancy Grace (22:14)

I agree. I agree. I don't know why people do things like this. It's just tortuous to the family. But that said, we're not going to be able to stop it here on Crime Stories. But what we can do is put all of this brain trust together and analyze what we are learning. Number one, we think definite two perps, one at the front, one at the back. We think definitely that Mrs. Guthrie was taken out in her PJs with no shoes. What does that tell me? Haste. Haste. Also, let's take a very careful look. A close up of the blood stains. The blood on the front of the porch to many people, suggest a shoe print. Now, before we throw out the baby with the bath water, let's listen. Your mind has to be open if you have a knee jerk reaction. That's not what this is fine. But listen, Gentry, what do you make of it?

Jeff Gentry (23:12)

There's multiple drip stands on the porch. That would indicate that she was standing there for some period of time while she's being taken out of the home. So that's where our analysis that she was upright, walking out of the home, walking, slowly, being assisted by someone else. That's where we are getting that. That opinion or that. That information. And realistically, people that are upright and walking near blood can step in blood. They can either be bleeding themselves and transfer blood to a surface, or they can step in blood that's already on a surface. And what we're seeing looks like some kind of a pattern impression. And a pattern impression in blood is just some object that looks. Looks like an object creating a blood pattern. And that could be a footwear impression. It could be a sock. It could be maybe an object that somebody dropped. But in this case, it does look like a footwear pattern. It doesn't look like your typical, like, running shoe. It doesn't look like your vans type pattern. To me, it looks more like, like a trail shoe or a hiking shoe. But then the other possibility of if her slippers are missing, maybe it was a slipper. Maybe she's stepping in her own blood and creating that blood transfer pattern.

Nancy Grace (24:18)

We just established she's barefoot. Hello. We just established we think she's barefoot. So it's not a slipper. Guys, that photo is from Fox News. But, Gentry, just because I believe in one of your sub points doesn't mean I disagree with everything you're saying. Keep going.

Jeff Gentry (24:34)

So, I mean, we're assuming that she was barefoot. We don't have physical evidence to suggest that yet. At least we don't. Maybe the family does, maybe the FBI does. So we have to, in doing especially blood pattern analysis, keep all options still open until we can rule them out completely. And so that's what I do with my analysis, is I'm making multiple suggestions based on the different scenarios and then analyzing the other evidence. We're going to kind of narrow down those possibilities. But considering that it's in the blood on the front porch, right outside of the house, we know that people are upright and walking. You have to consider that that is possibly a footwear impression that we're looking at, and it has to be analyzed. That is possibly a forensic link to the suspect.

Nancy Grace (25:15)

I just wonder. Let's take a look at the house plan as we know it. As best as we can deduce it, we've got the front door open and we've Got we've got her coming out the front door and we've got the back door still left propped open. They left in haste. They didn't go back and shut the door. Dave, Mac, take a look at the floor plan. We think we know it. This is from Matte LeBlanc Inc. It's very helpful. Now the front door. Let's place the front door and let's place the back door. Looking at this, I'm hypothesizing an educated guess that it was easier to get her out the front door than the back and that they were putting her in a vehicle. There's no way that she could walk. They had to put her in a vehicle. These photos from Fox News Digital, guys. So Dave, looking at the floor plan as we believe it to be, what's your theory on back door open but went out front door?

Dave Mack (26:27)

I think you've got multiple people coming in the house and that's where they made entry through the back door. Then if you notice porch guy, when porch guy arrives at the front door, it looks like porch guy is trying to look left of the door into the home through the glass. Like is his compatriots inside? Are they there to open the door to let him in that way? That's why the back door would be propped open and that's why this guy would be looking for a way in on the front door. They're going to have to get her out the front door. You're absolutely right.

Nancy Grace (26:56)

Hold on, let's see him walk up again. Dave Mack, you just pointed out something I hadn't noticed. See, that's why it's so good to work with a team because it's not just your eyes, it's everybody's eyes. And trust me, everybody on this panel, there's not a single dummy here. He pointed out that the guy looks off, looked off to like he's looking in a window to see what was going on inside. Another scintilla of evidence that there are two perps. Now that's really interesting because later on Savannah states that regarding the ransoms she refers to one person.

Savannah Guthrie (27:33)

It is surreal. It's how is it possible that we are having to make a video speaking to a kidnapper who took an 84 year old woman in the dead of night in her pajamas, with no shoes, without her medicine, this little person and

Nancy Grace (28:06)

to beg for mercy that from today, YouTube. She definitely refers to one kidnapper, a kidnapper. Also tonight, a lot is being made by haters that Sister Annie called 911 before she called Savannah. And that's. This is where that's coming from. Listen.

Savannah Guthrie (28:27)

And my sister called me and I said, is everything okay? And she said, no. She said, mom's missing. And I said, what? What are you talking about? She said, she's gone. She must have had like some kind of medical episode in the night and that somehow, you know, the paramedics had come. I started calling the hospitals and. And the. The police were there and talking to her at the same time and it was just chaos.

Nancy Grace (28:58)

That from our friends at today YouTube. Okay, that simple comment has ignited hellfire from haters, stating that that doesn't make sense. Why would Annie call 911 before calling Savannah? Well, I'll tell you why. Because I've done it more times than I can count. I've taken my mom. I am taking care of my mom. My sister and my brother live far away.

Savannah Guthrie (29:27)

I.

Nancy Grace (29:27)

It's on me. And if I think something's wrong with her, I immediately take her to the ER. She's 94. A sniffle could be serious for her. It could be Covid, for Pete's sake. Then if it's serious, then I call them. If it's not, I wait till she's treated and I bring her back home. They know her at the er. We've gone so many times in my beat up minivan. And that said, of course, you call 911 first. I don't get the hate, but it makes perfect sense to me. And hold on, brother Cameron. So far, Savannah, Annie and her husband have been the butt of a lot of hate. But now, apparently it's your turn.

Savannah Guthrie (30:15)

Annie said, I think she's been kidnapped for ransom. And I said, yeah. What? Why? What? And then, I mean, it sounds so like, how dumb could I be? But I just. I didn't want to believe. I just said, do you think because of me? And I said, I'm sorry, sweetie, but yeah, maybe. But I knew that you did. I hope not. I mean, we still don't know. Honestly, we don't know anything. We don't know anything. So I don't know that it's because she's my mom and somebody thought, oh, that girl, that lady has money we can get. Make a quick buck. I mean, that would make sense, but we don't know. But yeah, that's probably. Which is too much to bear to think that I brought this to her bedside, that it's because of me, And I just say, I'm so sorry, mommy, I'm so sorry.

Nancy Grace (31:50)

From our friends at today YouTube. Other than seeing the obvious pain Savannah's going through. Now, the haters have jumped on brother Cameron because of that. Because brother Cameron, who lives in a different state to my understanding, said this sounds like a ransom, a kidnapped for ransom. Many people are suggesting he knows that because he's in on it again. I mean, how many times does the family have to be cleared? But people are still running with that. Brother Cameron was in another state when this happened, so I guess it had to mastermind it from a far. I'll tell you why he thinks it's kidnapped for ransom to Jeff Gentry. Because if there is a burglar and somebody comes in and they see the person, overwhelmingly, statistically, the burglar leaves. If it's a, she would have been and left there. If it was a murder, she would have been murdered and left there. So why else? I mean, there are only a few alternatives. Jeff Gentry, as to why you would cart an 84 year old woman out of the house with no shoes and her PJs, right.

Jeff Gentry (33:06)

It's clear that these people came in with a mission in mind. They, they planned it out. They, they knew what they were going to do and they carried it out. Exactly how or why, we don't know. But I was just wondering, is there any other possibility in your mind of what it could be other than a ransom case? I. I can't really think of any. I mean, why would somebody want to take an older woman out of her home and, and keep her for this long? It just doesn't make sense. Unless it's a ransom situation. But then again, why aren't these people still asking for the ransom money? Why. Why would they just go silent at this point? It, to me doesn't, doesn't really make sense on a lot of levels, but I think we still have to be open to other possibilities just in case and hopefully the FBI.

Nancy Grace (33:49)

And what possibility? Just give me a legitimate possibility. Gentry.

Jeff Gentry (33:53)

Family being involved, Close family being involved. A close friend, somebody that dislikes the family.

Nancy Grace (33:58)

Okay. Gentry, I don't know if you've heard yet, but they were cleared or if you've heard that they passed polygraphs.

Jeff Gentry (34:06)

I did not hear that.

Nancy Grace (34:07)

You would have to believe Savannah is in on it. Do you really think that? Do you think there's one shred of evidence suggesting she's in on it?

Jeff Gentry (34:15)

I don't, I really don't think so. But I do think that in any investigation, especially high profile ones like this, the investigators have to stay open to all possibilities because once you completely shut that door, it Narrows your mind, and then you become somewhat biased. You focus too much on one possibility, whereas if you keep your mind open to other possibilities, you're going to analyze information differently. You're going to analyze evidence differently. So although I do not think that Savannah is involved in this, and I don't believe that her family is involved, you still have to, as a good investigator, keep your mind open to all possibilities.

Nancy Grace (34:49)

Well, Jeff Gentry, can't the same be said of ruling out suspects that come up with airtight alibis? You rule them out, and then you proceed forward. They're no longer on the table. That's how I do it in an investigation.

Jeff Gentry (35:01)

True.

Nancy Grace (35:02)

But unless a red flag appears and I think, oh, wow, I've got to reinvestigate that, that has not happened yet. What about it, Iker?

Scott Eicher (35:08)

As we go through this type of investigations and we get new information, we have to go back and reevaluate what we thought we saw or heard or what our witness said back then and look at it in a different light. So every time something changes, you have to reevaluate, and it really does change your thought pattern as you're looking at into the evidence from a different perspective.

Nancy Grace (35:37)

Also, the family is being attacked that they, quote, let Mrs. Guthrie live alone. Well, if she wants to live alone, you'd have to have her declared incompetent and become her legal guardian and force her to live elsewhere. That is the reality. I know. I went through it with my mother. She nearly burned the house down in Macon by leaving the stove on multiple times. Still, she refused to leave her home. And it was only when she got really afraid and had eye surgery and couldn't, literally could not see for a period of months that she agreed to leave her home. It was an ordeal. So the reality is, what are you going to do? Force her to move in with you or into a, God forbid, rest home? So all the haters obviously have not dealt with an aging parent that doesn't want to leave their home. Brian Fitzgibbons, weigh in.

Brian Fitzgibbons (36:39)

We're a private security investigations firm, and these critics of Cameron Guthrie for making that association immediately don't know what it's like to live in the public eye. And a number of our clients, I can tell you right now, if someone went missing from their family, they would immediately associate kidnapping for ransom. These people have to live with a different paranoia than an average American citizen when their sister is Savannah Guthrie on the Today show every single day in the national spotlight.

Nancy Grace (37:10)

You know, I hadn't thought of it like that. But you're absolutely right. Brian Fitzgibbons. In the last hours, Savannah has reappeared. Many people are questioning why is she speaking out. My question is why shouldn't she? Many people have suggested it's hurting the investigation. Is it? We know very little. The press conferences have ceased. I believe this is her attempt to keep her mother's case alive and keep people listening and watching and thinking and reporting what they know. Also in the last hours, we learned that billboards have gone up in Spanish. To you, Dave Mack, is this suggesting that the perp is Latino?

Dave Mack (38:07)

No, not yet. Possibly mentioning Nancy, that they've got bilingual or Spanish language billboards up. These are all electronic billboards and they are all in the southwestern part of the US we're talking San Diego to. Not in Tucson, but Phoenix and all the way through New Mexico like Albuquerque and in Houston, Texas, in Dallas, Fort Worth. So they're focusing on the southwestern part of the United States and there are a lot of Spanish language people. So it makes sense that these billboards, these electronic billboards would be in both English and Spanish.

Nancy Grace (38:38)

From our friends at Fox 26 News. What about it, Fitzgibbons? I'm sure what Matt just said is true, but could it indicate more?

Brian Fitzgibbons (38:48)

Yeah, I think what you're seeing here is the search grid, so to speak, expanding that that radius is growing as they look for more leads and information. The FBI wants to expand that radius into Spanish speaking areas.

Nancy Grace (39:06)

Guys, as I was saying earlier in the last hour, Savannah Guthrie has again spoken. And I'd like you to hear the last installment of what she had to say.

Savannah Guthrie (39:18)

This isn't some cheap faced. And my mom taught me that God only requires our authentic presence and that he has. But I never doubted. I will not fall apart. I will not let whoever did this take my children's mother from them. I will not let them take my Joy.

Nancy Grace (39:53)

From today, YouTube to Dr. Geralyn Utter, it seems that Savannah. I'm certainly no shrink. You are. But I have found this to be common, a commonality amongst many crime victim families that they blame themselves. Even if this was Mrs. Guthrie being targeted because the perp believes Savannah can pay a big ransom, that doesn't make it Savannah's fault. It makes it the perp's fault. He is the Jackal, not Savannah. But I found that to be very common amongst victims families.

Dr. Geralyn Utter (40:30)

Yes, survivor's guilt is real. And in this case there's an extra layer of pressure when it comes to a public figure like Savannah. So you have this implicit pressure. So she's thinking you know, not only, you know, has this terrible thing happened to my mom, but did I cause this? Although there is no actual causal effect and it doesn't make any, any sense when you look at it logically and psychologically, that's how she's feeling. She's carrying that burden, she's carrying that guilt. She has this implicit pressure because she is a media personality. But I really did like what she said at the end, Nancy, when she said she talked about her faith and she talked about, you know, not allowing this, you know, to take her away from her children. So that is demonstrating that she's powerful, that she's strong and that she's trying to hold it together, which I like seeing, you know, for her own mental health and, you know, protective coping strategy. Although it's hard and she's upset and she's sad and she's grieving, she understands that, you know, she has a family to take care of and that she still loves her mother and she's going to do what she can to try to bring her mom home.

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Nancy Grace (42:43)

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Nancy Grace (43:31)

use of its intellectual property. AARP and its affiliates are not insurers. Savings vary. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Let me remind everyone how powerful her words are, because somewhere out there is the perp. Probably at least two perps. And the more Savannah talks, the more she describes her mother and the angst her family is going through, the more likely someone will develop a conscience and speak out. Somebody, somewhere. And then there is a little thing called the Arizona death penalty. If. If Mrs. Guthrie passed away during this ordeal, that's still felony murder. A death occurs during the commission of a felony. Being kidnapped, you get the death penalty for that. DP doesn't require a long, drawn out plan like poisoning someone over weeks and months. It doesn't require multiple bodies. It doesn't require the victim be a judge or a cop. You get the death penalty for felony murder. So whoever knows something, whoever is an accomplice, whoever is the back door guy who is aiding and abetting or hiding, wake up, take the reward and speak out or become a co defendant in a death penalty case. I want to close tonight with the desire and the prayer that somehow, some way, there will be a reunion between Savannah, annie, Cameron and Mrs. Guthrie. But that won't happen unless we remain vigilant. I want you to hear the end of what Savannah said earlier today.

Savannah Guthrie (45:41)

Do we need an answer and someone has it in their power to help. It is never too late. And when you do, the warmth of love and forgiveness that will come will be greater than. Than can be imagined. How can someone vanish.

Nancy Grace (46:05)

Yeah.

Savannah Guthrie (46:05)

Without a trace. How someone knows something. Even if that something is someone's been acting strange for the last seven, eight weeks. Even if it's just that somebody knows. My joy will be my protest. My joy will be my answer. And being there is joyful.

Nancy Grace (46:37)

Gosh, that was the hardest part for me of her. Talking about joy in the midst of what she and her family are going through. That's from our friends today at YouTube. You know what? Ah, Fitzgibbons. Nobody ever said an investigation was easy. I've had plenty of investigations and prosecutions where I wanted to quit because I just didn't know which way to go. I didn't have an answer. I didn't know what to do. But I didn't quit because that was my duty. We can't quit. Nobody said this was going to be solved in an hour like on tv. It's not like that. This is a real investigation. This is the way it plays out. And when you run out of answers, you keep turning it over and over and looking at it again and again and following every lead, even if it's far fetched, until you come to the resolution. It's not easy.

Brian Fitzgibbons (47:44)

And there's over 10,000 hours of video, over 30,000, 30,000 tips and they're still rolling in. So I want to make it very clear that, you know, this is the perpetrators behind this are going to be walked down by law enforcement over time here. This is happening now.

Nancy Grace (48:05)

We will have a resolution come hell or high water. If you know, or if you think you know anything about Mrs. Guthrie's disappearance, please dial 800-225-53241 800, call FBI or to remain anonymous 520-882-7463. There is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of Ms. Nancy Guthrie. We remember an American hero Deputy Sheriff Stephen Bruner, Calhoun County Sheriff's Florida Passed away in the line of duty leaving behind a grieving family died evacuating people from a forest fire American hero Deputy Sheriff Stephen Bruner I want to thank our guests, but especially to you for being with us and keeping the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Good night friend.

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Nancy Grace (50:34)

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