Neighbor Jeff Lamy (3:23)

Directly from our home to Nancy's house, it would be rough brush, especially in the dark. She was just a pleasant, wonderful neighbor. And we're so saddened, of course, heartbroken about what's, what's happened.

Nancy Grace (3:39)

The caddy corner neighbor of Nancy Guthrie, revealing a lot, Mr. Lame tells us that the vacant home and the construction site, we're very near Nancy Guthrie's home. We learned a lot this as helicopters take to the air from Pima county and Maricopa. Straight out to Dave Mack, crime stories investigative reporter. First, the helicopters. What happened and why?

Dave Mack (4:11)

Nancy? The Pima County Sheriff's Department has been using helicopters in the Guthrie investigation since early on. And yesterday they took off early and flew in a corridor between Tucson and the border with Mexico and flew back, but then landed at the FBI office headquarters. Now, as the day went on, Pima county was joined by Maricopa County Sheriff's Department helicopters also joining in the travels between Tucson and the border and back to Phoenix again. So we've got evidence that has been transported by helicopters in this investigation and other investigations, and wonder if that's the same thing taking place now with Pima county going down toward the border and back to Phoenix.

Nancy Grace (5:02)

Well, guys, this is my friends at Fox News. This video you're saying, you know, just got Morgan, I would discount it as being probative, but, you know, the fact that Apima county helicopter went toward the Mexican border and was joined by Maricopa county helicopter, but for the fact that the helicopters then went to the FBI headquarters, to me, that's just too much, too much of a coincidence. So that says to me, this was Nancy Guthrie related.

Joseph Scott Morgan (5:36)

Yeah, I would say that it was. Do you, do you recall when we saw those individuals show up at the house, they were dressed in suits. We thought that maybe they were part of the prosecutorial team, perhaps feds. They're trying to assess the whole area in. In its totality. All right, so if you fly that cycle from that location and then all the way back, spinning around, you're kind of getting a bird's eye view, aren't you? And maybe they had picked up on something. If they had done any kind of LIDAR mapping, any kind of GSI, GIS mapping, they're trying to.

Nancy Grace (6:12)

Okay, you need to explain to everyone what you're saying. Just throwing out acronyms is not helping anyone understand what you're saying. And it's very valuable what you're saying. Go ahead.

Joseph Scott Morgan (6:22)

Yeah, so if they're, if they're working on any Kind of imagery that has been either generated by drones, it's been generated by satellite imagery. It's one thing to take that and look at it on a computer screen. But if you got people that are interested in this investigation, they can take those images and go back and say, okay, we're going to fly this route. This is something that is, like you said, potentially probative if they're talking about a track or a trail that leads in that particular direction. See here we have it on the imagery that we've generated. We're going to fly this route and then we're going to go back to the office, discuss it. I think that that very well might be or have some value for individuals that are, let's just say in military terms, on the tip of the fear in this particular investigation.

Nancy Grace (7:14)

Joining us now, in addition to Joseph Scott Morgan, director, operations, USPA Nationwide Security, leading a team of investigators around the world to locate and extract missing people, former Marine, Iraqi war vet Brian Fitzgibbons. I find it very telling that first Pima county helicopters take to the air. This is in the last 24 hours. They are joined by Maricopa county helicopters. They go toward the Mexican border, seemingly rendezvous and then head back toward the FBI headquarters in Phoenix. Remember a couple of weeks ago the FBI decamped largely from Tucson, leaving guys and women on the ground, but heading back to assimilate evidence at their main headquarters where they have all of their facilities there in Phoenix. So why, what could they be looking at? This is what you and your team at USPA Nationwide Security do when you are trying to find missing people. So how does this fit in with Nancy Guthrie?

Brian Fitzgibbons (8:20)

Yeah, we live in an age of incredible amounts of open source intelligence where the public online sleuths, private firms are able to track with incredible detail and immediacy any movements of aircraft in and around related to this case with tail numbers and everything else, destinations, their travel patterns, you know, could this be something related to the case? Potentially, could this be related to some other case? We don't know all that. All that we're able to see.

Nancy Grace (8:55)

I know that. Brian. Brian, I know it may or may not be related to this case. I would venture to just go out on a limb and say it is because they circle back to the FBI headquarters. What other case is Pima handling that is FBI connected, that they want to use a helicopter for? So what are they looking at? Why do they need a helicopter vantage point? Why bring in another law enforcement agency, Maricopa? Of course I know it may or may not be connected. I mean, I can ask a guy on the street that, but you're the Director of Operations, USPA Nationwide Security, so. Think, think, thinking. What are they doing?

Brian Fitzgibbons (9:36)

Yeah, I mean, this looks like movement of personnel to me. So for some reason, they went directly to that FBI location. You know, we didn't see them scanning. Similar to with the Bluetooth beacon where they were searching in a slow, methodical grid pattern. These were directed movements of personnel for a specific reason back to that FBI location.

Nancy Grace (10:05)

I don't think they took the scenic route. Brian fitzgibbons I don't think they went from Pima to the Mexican border and then to the FBI headquarters to transfer personnel. Personnel can get in a car and drive. They're not getting a helicopter escort. Plus they're not going to go in a triangle. If it was just transferring personnel, they would go from Pima to Phoenix. They would not go a drive by at the Mexican border. What? Brian, you've extracted a lot of people that were missing. Why did they need an aerial view? This is not like catching an Uber to carry somebody to FBI headquarters. They're looking for something. What?

Brian Fitzgibbons (10:52)

Yeah, I stand. I disagree. I think that this is a movement of people. You know, whether those personnel are, you know, Pima County Sheriff's Office or a potential suspect in this case, that. That flight pattern looked to me like they were moving people.

Nancy Grace (11:10)

Okay, I reject that, but maybe you're right. Before I totally throw out the baby with the bath water, Dave Mack, tell me again what we know about the helicopter movement last night.

Dave Mack (11:21)

What we know, Nancy, is that it started with Pima County. Okay, at first it was just Pima county flying their helicopter from Tucson to the border, then coming back, landing near the Tuesday Phoenix office for the FBI. Then later in the day, Maricopa county, then joined the Pima County Sheriff's Department helicopter. So you had Pima county going alone, then returning and going back with Maricopa County. Two helicopters flying from to the border from the Tucson area and then again incorporating the FBI landing into that as well in Phoenix, again, Pima alone, then Maricopa county together.

Nancy Grace (12:06)

Todd Shipley joining us, digital cybercrime expert. And you can find him@darkintel.info Former Detective Sergeant Reno, 25 years in LE Author of Surviving Cyber Attack. Todd, what were they looking for? Why did they need helicopter vantages? Why did they need to look? Why did they need an aerial view?

Todd Shipley (12:34)

Well, they could have easily gotten new information that we didn't know about before, which leads to them looking for a path that the kidnappers could have taken. They're trying to verify locations. There may have been some evidence that they found near the border that they wanted to hurriedly get back to the FBI to, you know, go through. So there's a couple of different things that could have happened. I mean, the transportation of personnel is definitely one of them. But there's a lot of other things that could have happened there. I think that they still want to try to find signals from the pacemaker. If it's still active, they could be up doing that again. Again, they would be doing something more patterned. But if they had specific information about a location, they may have wanted to get down there in the air right away to try to see if they could get the signal.

Nancy Grace (13:26)

Shipley, I agree with you on everything you said, except one thing. I don't think it has anything to do with Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker because they started, correct me if I'm wrong, Dave Mack. They started the pacemaker search with a signal sniffer, which is blue fly technology. They quickly transfer to drones with the sniffer attached because the Bluetooth signal from a pacemaker does not extend as high as many people think. So they had to get lower down to the ground. Therefore, I don't think they would make the same mistake of attaching signal sniffers to a helicopter and flying to Mexico. I see where you're going. I agree with everything you said before that. What is that? Dave Mack jumping in. Go ahead, Dave. And by the way, that's from our friends at Blue Flight YouTube.

Dave Mack (14:24)

I was just trying to point out that, you know, Bluetooth technology, it only reaches about 20ft. And so once you're past that, not going to do a lot of good. And that's the case where they were able to use the drones because you can bring the drones in a lot lower than you can bring in helicopters, and they're less disruptive as well. So I'm with you on that one. With regard to what the helicopters are

Nancy Grace (14:43)

being used for yesterday, well, I'm so glad that there's an echo chamber, but the Bluetooth signal, as we learned at the time, goes much further than 20ft. That was the Bluetooth signal you're referring to, correctly, Dave Mack. The Bluetooth signal from her phone and her wi fi. Once she left the home, it cut that connection. That video from our friends at Fox News. But, Brian Fitzgibbons, didn't we learn upon a careful review that Bluetooth signals can go as far as a football field?

Brian Fitzgibbons (15:29)

Yeah. So there had been some work done on these antennas to increase the range of that signal sniffer up to 150 to 300ft in some test cases that I saw online. So I believe that some of that technology had been deployed earlier on in this case to broaden the scope of that search.

Nancy Grace (15:56)

You're right, helicopters could actually interfere with the signal's reception and cannot get low enough to connect. And that is why the device was then attached to a drone. So I don't think this had anything to do with trying to find her pacemaker. I do, however, think Todd Shipley is onto something about what they were looking for. Could it have been a route? Could it have been even a hideout? It could have been so many things we don't know yet, but but we're trying to find out. That said, in the last 24 hours, helicopters from Pima county sheriffs then joined by Maricopa County Sheriff's rendezvous, we understand, en route to the Mexican border, then travel to the FBI headquarters in Phoenix. Also, the Guthrie family issuing another desperate plea asking neighbors to search their memories.

Dave Mack (16:59)

We are deeply grateful for the outpouring from neighbors, friends and the people of Tucson. We are all family now. We continue to believe it is Tucsonians and the greater Southern Arizona community that hold the key to finding resolution. In this case, someone knows something. It's possible a member of this community has information that they do not even realize is significant. We hope people search their memories, especially around the key timelines of January 31, the early morning hours of February 1, as well as the late evening of January 11. We desperately ask the community for renewed attention to our mom's case. Please consult camera footage, journal notes, text messages, observations or conversations that in retrospect may hold significance. No detail is too small. It may be the key. We miss our mom with every breath and we cannot be in peace until she's home. We cannot grieve. We can only ache and wonder. Our focus is solely on finding her and bringing her home. We want to celebrate her beautiful and courageous life, but we cannot do that until she is brought to a final place of rest. Thank you for continuing to pray without ceasing.

Nancy Grace (18:16)

That statement from the Guthrie family is heartbreaking on so many levels. Again referring back to Thessalonians begging people to pray without ceasing. Crime Stories is so proud to be supported by Grand Canyon University, an affordable, private, non profit Christian university based in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona. GCU doesn't settle for the status quo, they shatter it. GCU. Academically rigorous, industry driven programs are built to move at the speed of relevance with practical skills, career readiness and opportunity for every learner. And GCU believes education should not be a privilege, but an affordable path forward for all. In fact, they've kept tuition at the same rate on their traditional campus for the past 17 years and they're continuing that into the 2026-2027 academic year. Grounded in Christian faith, GCU works to empower the next generation to lead with integrity and serve with purpose and help transform their communities. Building a future that matters. GCU is Purpose Driven Education. Take action. Find your purpose at GCU Private Christian Affordable Nonprofit. Visit gcu.edu to learn more.

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Nancy Grace (20:55)

quickly at American Military University. They're ready to help you keep up. AMU's flexible, affordable online programs in cybersecurity, IT, space studies and more are designed for service members, veterans and their families. AMU provides the support you need to take the next step wherever life takes you. American Military University Built for what's next. Learn more@amu.com APUS EDU that's AMU APUS. EDU crime stories with Nancy Grace. Out to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit podcast Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. But more importantly, death investigator with over 10,000 death investigations under his belt. Did you hear? Not only the heartbreaking nature of that, and I can't help but think of Savannah specifically since many people believe they know her. Having seen her on TV so much, having seen her heart wrenching pleas to find her mother. There was a lot said in that I heard the date January 11 mentioned now again, Nano saying, oh, yeah, well, maybe the guy wasn't on the front porch. January 11th. But you know what? I had a guest in the last 24 hours, Joe Scott, you were with me that says it was Mr. LeMay that stated FBI asked him about January 11th. He, a lot of people are attacking him, of course, online and saying that he made that up. No, he was asked to review his video and he did. And he discovered after FBI requesting it and he reviewed it. That was one of the very few times that and the night of the kidnap that on those two nights alone, his dog went crazy and wanted to go outside. He also said the FBI asked him about that date, even though Nano says, yeah, he's backtracking. Maybe it wasn't that date. But Savannah is mentioning that date as well. That date is significant. And I'm learning a lot from this most recent statement. Do you believe that this statement has been specifically issued because law enforcement is long no longer giving any information out. There are no more. No pressers. So Savannah and her brother and sister are trying to keep the search alive.

Joseph Scott Morgan (23:57)

Yeah, I think so. Just, just imagine somebody doing chest compressions here. They're trying to breathe life or sustain life in this investigation. And information, incoming information and also outgoing information are always the life's blood of any, of any kind of investigation, Nancy. And yeah, it's not just about her making a statement like this. This is something that her people are telling her to do to reference back to her mother to keep this case alive. I do not hold with all of these people out there saying that this is a cold case. You want to talk about cold cases? I'll talk to you about cold cases. This is not, I repeat, a cold case. Stop saying it. All right, at this point, I know that many weeks have gone by, the media's begging for more data. This is not a cold case. Not the way a cold case is handled at this point in time. There's still life here. There's still hope. There's a possibility that of some type of conclusion. None of us can guarantee what that conclusion will be. But yet there's still data to be gleaned. It's not a cold case.

Nancy Grace (25:08)

Back to the issue. And the issue is what is Savannah stating in this most recent plea to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us, USPA nationwide security. She mentioned several dates which belie contradict what Nanos is saying. That Jan24, January. Yeah, we're not sure about that anymore. She specifically says Jan 11 specifically. And Jan, 31st, which leads me to believe that date is significant. Do you agree or disagree? And why the statement now?

Brian Fitzgibbons (25:44)

Of course I agree that January 11th is an important date and we know this as fact. At this point, the FBI went door to door. Todd. Mr. Lemie, your guest yesterday corroborated that, looking for information about January 11th. So the fact that Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanos is saying that that date doesn't necessarily mean anything. I don't. I don't understand that statement. That date is clearly important and connected to this case.

Nancy Grace (26:22)

The Guthrie's holding on to hope that someone in the community will hand over critical information about their mom. They, of course, express gratitude to all the citizens. They name specific dates which contradict what Nanos is saying. Now. They are asking for renewed attention. They say no detail is small. It may be the key. It is may be the key. Many believe that this statement was timed because no more pressers, no more information coming from law enforcement. Many people think that the statement is coded in some way, just as they speculated about an earlier plea by Savannah.

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We received your message and we understand.

Nancy Grace (27:16)

We beg you now to return our

Weatherbug/Mint Mobile Announcer (27:19)

mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace.

Nancy Grace (27:26)

This is very valuable to us and we will pay. She may have been using code words. We know that the authorities, specifically the FBI, helped her come up with those statements. Savannah didn't just go rogue. That was very carefully worded, as is the current statement that has just been released. Well, aside from helicopters taking to the air, the Guthrie's issuing a very carefully worded plea for information. Let's take another look at those lights. Specifically where we have a pointer showing the lights behind the perps shoulder. There you go. Now I want to talk about what we learned from Mr. Lamy. This is from Bluestar 812 on X, by the way. Thanks. Bluestar. What did we learn last night from Mr. Lemy?

Neighbor Jeff Lamy (28:26)

If you're on Escalante and you directly stare from Nancy's home up the street, that kind of. There's a. There's a cul de sac above. If on this. On this camera view above her street, you'll see a white roofed house at the very, very top of that cul de sac. That's where construction is occurring.

Nancy Grace (28:53)

So we see the construction site and the vacant property site. Now, do those lights coincide with either of those properties? To Dave Mack from Crime Stories.

Jeff Martin (29:08)

What about it, Nancy?

Dave Mack (29:10)

It's really. It's very possible that those lights line up where you can see or what appears to be not a natural light. This is something that is at an angle right there. I'm just amazed. It's coming from what appears to be the vacant house where the construction work is being done.

Nancy Grace (29:29)

Wait a minute, Dave. Matt, you said it could be coming from the vacant house, the construction site. Those are two different things. Let's see the map again. It can't be coming from both. So based on where her home is, where the porch is, which is a more likely. What's the most likely source? Would it be the construction site or the vacant property?

Dave Mack (29:54)

The construction site is what I meant. And if you notice as the perp glances over the shoulder, it's like that's where this light is coming in. And when he's moving, we can see it. It's a stationary light. It's not moving. He's moving.

Nancy Grace (30:11)

Okay. There are many scenarios which could create this. It could be headlights, but yet it's not moving. But there you see the per looking back at could still be headlights even if the vehicle wasn't moving. That could be the so called getaway car. Could it be solar lights? Could it be a house light? To Todd Shipley joining us, cybercrime expert. How well can the feds enhance that?

Todd Shipley (30:45)

Well, I think with the technology we've got today, they can do a lot to identify what it possibly was. If it's a car, maybe they can outline the lens and try to figure out what it is. But at the altitude that it's at, it's probably, as you're suggesting, the construction site. Something down the street is. It doesn't look low enough to be street level. So it's probably coming from that construction site. But they can do a lot to make it look better and try to figure out what it is. But again, like I said yesterday, why didn't they notice this earlier? Why was this not something that they looked at? What was the bias they were looking at?

Nancy Grace (31:27)

Hold on, Shipley. How do we know they didn't notice it? I mean, I haven't been tripping through the FBI files, but for all we know, they have noticed it. And if they haven't, well, they have. Now, I want to use your brain on another issue. I want to talk about those tracks. Those tracks. We got additional photos of the tracks outside Nancy Guthrie's home. Let's see the additional. There you go. There's one of them. Let's keep looking. And I want you to notice that's from Chillinois on X. We've got several more. Keep looking. That's the one we showed you last night. Now, very concerning how this scene was treated. How was the scene handled? When were these photos taken? When were the tracks left behind? Extremely significant. Had the pizza delivery guy come up there? I mean, had the gravel been disturbed? What about it, Joe? Scott Morgan, this is your bailiwick.

Joseph Scott Morgan (32:41)

Yeah. Looking at these, Nancy, actually now, if you take a look at that, that larger kind of panoramic view of the tracks, you can actually appreciate that it's got what we refer to as kind of a curved or curvilinear pattern. And this is a bilinear track. So you've got two tracks that are running parallel to one another. And it's hard to judge from this angle, it's hard to judge depth. But what I can tell you, though, looking at this, and there's been a lot of speculation about this, is what we refer to in automotive terms when we're doing automotive work as far as investigations. It's got a wheelbase, very specific wheelbase. What can we deduce from that? Well, we've heard any number of things. I've heard people say a wagon. Don't think it's a wagon. I think probably two wheel. That could be a trash bin. I've heard a lot of chatter about that. And of course, what we mentioned yesterday, a wheelchair. Of course, if you think about a wheelchair, you've got two separate tires or you've actually got four, but they're on both sides. And so as you turn this thing, the radius of this thing is going to readjust. This looks like you're talking about two wheels at this point in time. So what could generate that? If they do the wheelbase assessment on this, and I hope that they did this at the time because these tracks have probably been eradicated. Now, if they did a measurement on this, that could put them in the neighborhood of what it was, what conveyance actually generated, and that could point back to something specific. Did they show up with these items in tow, that is a perpetrator, perhaps, or is this something that was left behind as a result of dragging trash cans out the road? But here's the problem, and this has been one of the problems all the way along, Nancy, is that if they didn't do it in the beginning, there's a problem because you can't go back and undo what you haven't done. It just doesn't make sense. And the fact that he has stated, he being the sheriff, that these are of no consequence. I beg to differ, sir. They are of significant consequence because every bit of information that you can glean from the scene is important to the investigation.

Nancy Grace (34:57)

Fitz. The various conveyances that may have been used. For instance, I get the significance of a wheelchair. I get that. Did they bring it? Did she already have a wheelchair? But I don't get the significance of, for instance, a dolly. What would that be for? Now, one reason this could be critical is because it does seem as if a conveyance was used to. Could we see the blood video? The video, not the still. Because, Brian, it seems as if the blood trail stops where the conveyance, the tracks pick up. So was she then put in some sort of conveyance, a wheelchair, something movable? Why do I care, Brian? Because someone else would likely have had to help the porch guy. He couldn't do all of this on his own, or could he?

Brian Fitzgibbons (35:58)

Yeah, this would definitely speak to a second subject being there on the scene. And as Joe Scott Morgan pointed out, identifying the width of that wheelbase, you know, is going to help identify what that object was that was creating those marks and then can provide us a little bit more of an insight into, you know, the weight required to create a depth of a tread that deep and how far they went. You know, where did it go? Where did it begin? Where did it stop? So I think it's very possible that some sort of conveyance was used to bring Mrs. Guthrie from the door to the vehicle.

Nancy Grace (36:40)

Another issue that has reared its head is a previous armed robbery in the same area. Let's see the video footage of that. Interesting. This seems to have appeared in broad daylight. Very, very different from the MO in the current case. Dave, Mac, explain to me what this prior robbery is.

Dave Mack (37:06)

Nancy. This group of robbers show up at the door, but they do it in a very tactical way. First, a woman goes to the door claiming to have a package from Amazon. The homeowners do not answer the doors. They're not expecting anything from Amazon. So the person goes away a couple weeks later. Okay, Two weeks go by. This is all in September. Two weeks go by, and the same woman in the same outfit shows up again, but this time she's got a van that can be seen on the ring doorbell camera out by the road, and a guy is in it. Now she goes to the door again, claiming to have an Amazon. This time, the occupants of the home are not there. So there's nobody in this house. The second time, this woman shows up at the door. 45 minutes later, Nancy, this woman comes back. This time, she's got men with her in the van. The men go to the side of the house and break in. They go into the home. They. They get a safe. They get other jewelry and valuables inside the home. And again, remember, this home is not currently occupied. The owners are on vacation. The daughter is away from the house. They. The robbers, they ended up pepper spraying the little dog, Pepper spraying the dog. They then escape. And it took about two weeks for police to track down the woman who was pretending to be the Amazon delivery person. But the other three have not been arrested. And this happened in the Catalina foothills area, not far 10 minutes from Nancy Guthrie's house.

Nancy Grace (38:43)

There are startling similarities, but overall, I would say a lot of dissimilarities. In that case, I find it critical to you, Fitzgibbons, that the other three perps were not apprehended. And there are theories that as many as 5 perps are responsible in the Nancy Guthrie kidnap. But, Fitzgibbons, this would mean that there are three perps still floating around from this last armed robbery. There are a lot of dissimilarities as well. Brian, what do you make of it?

Brian Fitzgibbons (39:20)

Yeah, certainly there's definitely enough here to at least tell us what's possible and what's possible to avoid detection and apprehension by law enforcement.

Jeff Martin (39:33)

Right.

Brian Fitzgibbons (39:33)

That there are three of these subjects still walking amongst the residents of Tucson right now.

Weatherbug/Mint Mobile Announcer (39:40)

Someone needs to do the right thing. We are in agony. Yeah, we are in agony. It is unbearable. And to think of what does she. She went through. I wake up every night in the middle of the night, every night. And in the darkness, I imagine her terror. And it is unthinkable. But those thoughts didn't to be thought. And I will not hide my face. That she needs to come home now.

Nancy Grace (40:38)

Yes, that from our friends at today YouTube. Savannah issuing another plea, Begging people for help and describing the anguish her family has been enduring since her mother vanished in the middle of the night. At this hour, we understand that le is re examining potential headlights behind the porch guy's shoulder. Let's take a look at that. And if possible, control room, please. Slow mo the porch guy. There you see the lights that many people observe first. Looking like headlights. Keep watching the lights. The porch guy fumbling around. Many people with the naked eye believe that they see the lights actually moving. And if you look carefully, it does appear as if a car is. Is inching forward. We also see the porch guy looking back over his shoulder at the lights. Last night, we heard theories that those lights were actually solar powered lights that would gain power during the day from the sun, and then they would shine during the night we heard theories that those were lights that are continuously kept on at a construction site. As a matter of fact, take a listen to our friend Mr. Lamy, Nancy Guthrie's neighbor.

Neighbor Jeff Lamy (42:16)

If you're on Escalante and you directly stare from Nancy's home up the street, that kind of. There's a cul de sac above. On this camera view above her street, you'll see a white roofed house at the very, very top of that cul de sac. That's where construction is occurring.

Nancy Grace (42:42)

Joining us tonight, Brian Fitzgibbons, director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security, leading a team of investigators around the world finding and extracting missing people. Former Marine, Iraqi war vet. What would be the significance if, in fact, those lights are moving?

Brian Fitzgibbons (43:06)

Yeah, it does appear to me that these lights are moving. And it's important to remember when you see this now in regular speed and you see the lights appear, there's quite a bit of vegetation on that side of Ms. Guthrie's property. So it's very plausible that that vehicle is coming down Escalante and then the lights are hidden and obscured by the trees there.

Nancy Grace (43:33)

Fitz, did you explain the significance if they're moving?

Brian Fitzgibbons (43:37)

The significance there would be. It would certainly add credibility to the theory that there was a second perpetrator here and that that was indeed a vehicle that was involved in this abduction.

Nancy Grace (43:53)

Joining us tonight, special guest Jeff Martin. He's joining us out of Grand Rapids. Certified digital forensics expert, over 20 years of experience. Experience. He specializes in cell phone forensics, computer forensics, cyber security and more. Instructor, Davenport University. Wow. You can find him at Jeff Martin, CFCE and at Jeffrey Michael Martin on Insta at Jeffmart. Jeff, thank you for being with us tonight. The possibility that those lights are in fact a vehicle opens up a wide range of potential digital evidence as to who was up there, not who was at her doorstep, but who was up there. Explain.

Jeff Martin (44:44)

Right. So it ultimately opens up the crime scene, Right. If that vehicle or those lights are, you know, believed to be involved in the event, then that opens up the crime scene to that construction site. And there is potential for investigating digital evidence footprints in and around that construction site.

Nancy Grace (45:08)

I'm just wondering, Jeff Martin, the degree to which the construction site was secured. I mean, think about it, Jeff. We didn't even have this video until somehow, it's frankly a miracle that out of the literally trillions of data points, Google, not law enforcement, but Google, managed to find Nancy Guthrie's porch video and then resurrect like Lazarus, for Pete's sake, resurrect the video. So I see no reason why law enforcement would have secured the construction site as a potential tertiary crime scene.

Dave Mack (45:49)

Correct.

Jeff Martin (45:49)

I mean, you know, ultimately, until they know that that site is potentially involved, then they may have not identified it as something to even investigate, let alone secure as a crime scene.

Nancy Grace (46:02)

Let's take a look at the map again, Jeff. And I'm not throwing a stone right now anyway at Nanos outfit, because at that time, I don't believe that they had any reason to secure the construction site, although it's a. Should certainly have been investigated right at the beginning along with the vacant property. But look at the location. The middle red marker, Guthrie home above it, the construction site. And if, like Fitzgibbon says, he sees movement, it would have been the car moving forward toward the cul de sac and toward Nancy Guthrie's home. Now, how does that fit in, Jeff Martin, with potentially capturing digital evidence?

Jeff Martin (46:50)

Well, you take digital. Digital evidence can be just about anywhere these days. And, you know, I'll give the example of cell phone digital evidence, cell phone tower digital evidence, just that location alone, the construction site location alone could be operating on a different cell phone tower, for example. And if, if law enforcement hadn't identified that early on, then that may be something that they could go back and look at. As far as digital evidence there, then you take the vehicle, for example. Depending on what type of vehicle it is, there could be a lot of digital evidence from that vehicle. Now, unfortunately, we can't really identify what type of make, model the vehicle is, but that's just another avenue of digital evidence. Take the construction site alone. Does the construction site have digital devices on the construction site? Some construction site these days, they leave equipment on site. Are they, are those, is that equipment secured with, you know, digital devices? Does the construction company have maybe WI fi set up so that the construction workers have the ability to, you know, communicate? You know, there are a lot of different things that we could speculate on as far as what type of digital evidence could be available at that site.

Nancy Grace (48:08)

Okay, Jeff Martin, you just went DEFCON 4 on me. You're going warp speed. Could you explain what you were saying about digital evidence at the construction scene?

Jeff Martin (48:21)

Right. So, you know, some construction companies, in order to secure their equipment, you know, they want to leave their equipment on site so they're not transporting it back and forth. Some of them secure their construction sites with digital devices such as security cameras or digital locks and such. Some construction companies today use digital time cards where employees show up and they tap a digital device to enter in Their time on site or off site. You know, I'm just spitballing here, with the amount of digital evidence that I've seen in numerous investigations, what could be or what, as I would, as a law enforcement investigation, what I would be thinking about trying to determine what type of digital evidence would be available at that construction site.

Nancy Grace (49:13)

You know, you also mentioned, for all we know, and it's entirely possible the construction site was most connected to a different cell tower. Why would that be significant?

Jeff Martin (49:28)

Well, I just use that as an example. Right. So, you know, I'm. I'm sure the law enforcement has done a cell phone tower investigation surrounding Savannah or Nancy Guthrie's home. And what that entails is they typically try to determine, you know, on the night of or the morning of February 1st, what cell phones were connected to the tower that services that home. That I think would have been done by law enforcement early on. Now, one possibility, if there is more than one tower servicing the area surrounding Nancy Guthrie's home, is that construction site might be serviced by a different cell phone tower than Nancy Guthrie's home is just based on the serviceability and the signal strength of cell phone towers. It's just. It's just in the realm of possibility, Something that I would think about if I was an investigator in this investigation.

Nancy Grace (50:29)

In addition to the lights behind the porch, Guy's shoulder reportedly moving, inching, seemingly forward. Now, of course, the FBI will be able to enhance that no end. How do they do that? Jeff Martin?

Jeff Martin (50:45)

Ultimately, there's software out there that video experts will use to enhance video and, you know, get rid of the noise, get rid of the clarification, mess with the lighting so that you can enhance the area of the video where the headlights are. You know, they can. They can adjust contrast and saturation, colors and all of those levels that are usually present in video.

Nancy Grace (51:15)

Also, we are learning that signal jammers emit a certain frequency. And as I was researching last night, I saw Sign Wizard 6 on Twitter come up with a very unique theory that dogs can be affected or respond to such frequencies. That made me think about what neighbor Jeff lemee told us preceding the event.

Neighbor Jeff Lamy (51:48)

There were some evenings where our dogs woke up, which was highly unusual. We don't know if there's a correlation. I know the FBI and the investigators have asked for cameras and camera footage. All the neighbors have shared camera footage, and any recollection they have. The dogs did rouse, and I took them out. There is a image of me on camera. I heard nothing or saw nothing. But animals can be, especially dogs can be hypersensitive. Also some of the other evenings that we've been questioned about. I'm working from memory again. I believe January 11th was another date that was in question. So we had this activity at that time and human nature, we just followed it away and didn't really think about this until we were asked to review our video and then had this recollection and saw this correlation, which was very unusual.

Nancy Grace (52:48)

On January 11th and January 31st, both nights your dogs uncharacteristically wanted to go outside.

Neighbor Jeff Lamy (52:57)

Yes.

Nancy Grace (52:58)

And that was very atypical.

Dave Mack (53:00)

Yes.

Nancy Grace (53:06)

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Nancy Grace (55:17)

iflag.org life moves really quickly at American Military University. They're ready to help you keep up. AMU's flexible, affordable online programs in cybersecurity, IT, space studies and more are designed for service members, veterans and their families. AMU provides the support you need to Take the next step wherever life takes you. American Military University built for what's next? Learn more@amu.comapus edu that's amu.apus.edu crime stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us now, special guest Dr. Kendall crowns. He is a chief medical examiner in Tarrant County, Texas. That's Fort Worth. Never a lack of business in the Morgue. There he is, the star of hit podcast Mayhem in the Morgue. He is the esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Dr. Kendall Crowns, thank you for being with us. What do you make of the suggestion that dogs, as we know we see them when they respond to dog whistles that people can't hear, hear, and they react very violently, very agitated when they hear those whistles, would they respond or start barking or want to go outside if a signal jammer emitted a similar frequency? Well, the answer is yes. Any radio frequency that may be inaudible to human beings can be picked up to by dogs because because of their sensitive hearing, they can hear a wide spectrum of sounds that we cannot even hear or ever be able to hear.

Joseph Scott Morgan (57:19)

And these sounds emitted by radio frequency

Nancy Grace (57:21)

devices can disrupt their sleep, cause agitation and make them upset and cause them to bark. So it could very well be a radio frequency that's being emitted, can't be heard by human beings, but the dogs pick up on it and it upsets them and they start barking or wake up and start barking.

Joseph Scott Morgan (57:38)

So yes, dogs are very sensitive to things like that.

Nancy Grace (57:44)

So they're not only their noses, but their ears are much, much more sensitive than those of humans. Yes, a dog's hearing is very acute. They can pick up very high pitched sounds, very low sounds that are way beyond the spectrum of human hearing. So dogs are very sensitive to their

Joseph Scott Morgan (58:05)

environment in numerous ways that we won't even ever understand probably.

Nancy Grace (58:10)

You know, I'm very curious. Brian fitzgibbons, if a jammer was used, there's so much we're going to be able to learn from that. For instance, the direction the perp was going if a jammer was used. And now we're having Lamy and other neighbors all stating that their WI fi went out at the same time that Nancy Guthrie was kidnapped. Would it be able to show us a direction, Brian, for instance, if it was jamming along the route,

Brian Fitzgibbons (58:45)

yeah, we will hopefully be able to get some data from the devices in the houses. These would be the WI fi terminals that connect that house to the Internet that potentially what would be recoverable are those data points of when Service was disrupted, and that could point to a direction that the jammer came in or went out from.

Nancy Grace (59:12)

Jeff Martin, everyone certified digital forensics expert, 20 years in the business. Jeff, again, thanks for being with us tonight. Now, we've heard what Dr. Kendall Crown said, medical doctor, regarding the possibility the frequency would affect a dog's hearing. But in what other ways could that night have affected the dogs?

Jeff Martin (59:37)

Well, with regards to the signal jammer, what you potentially could have is dogs are highly receptive to things that we can't hear or things that we can't sense. And if a signal jammer is in operation, they may or may not be able to hear the exact signal jammer itself, but they could be picking up on the residual effect of that signal jammer, such as the devices that are being affected by the signal jammer could be experiencing issues and they're trying to self correct themselves so they start to speed up a little bit. And you know, when I listen to the doctor describe that, that is what came to my mind is if all of these devices are starting to act different because their signals being jammed, then that is certainly something that I could see a dog, and I'm by no means a dog expert, senses as something different, something that that dog has not heard before in the span of his or her life. And that is a potential, you know, indication that something was not right at that night and that time.

Nancy Grace (60:48)

Guys, another issue has reared its ugly head. Was DNA overlooked on the foliage outside Nancy Guthrie's home? And also tonight, what does an Amazon delivery have to do with anything? But first with me, Tammy Ballard. She is a DNA crime scene consultant, crime scene investigation reconstructionist, former DNA criminalist for the San Diego Police Department crime lab. Okay, Tammy, look with me, we see the porch guy grabbing foliage, leaves

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and

Nancy Grace (61:26)

taking it up to. There you go. Okay. And they call him a professional. I don't buy it. But is there any way, especially in light of the fact that he kept mouthing a bite light, is there any way, having put the bite light in his mouth, taking it out in his mouth, taking it out, then picks up the foliage. We know he's got on gloves, but that does not preclude transfer of DNA from his person to the tips of the fingertips of those gloves, can you get DNA off foliage?

Tammy Ballard (62:05)

Tammy, unfortunately, this field is going to be filled with people that will tell you no. But I would challenge any DNA analyst, any investigator to prove that. I don't ever tell somebody no, because unless I've done it and been unsuccessful, I. I won't say that you can't get DNA. The transfer is there, most likely, but it's a matter of being very cautious, being very thorough and finding that DNA. So I. I have done a lot of items in my lifetime, thousands of items I've worked on for DNA. And I have had some strange requests, and I've blown my own mind, if you will, because sometimes, like we used to say, no, we can't get DNA from rocks. Now you can get DNA from rocks. It just has to have a case that brings it forward where somebody actually does the DNA and says, oh, look, yes, we. And this is a probative item. So I would say that those plants should be evaluated for DNA and hopefully they could recover them. With the technology that is available today, something like M Vac might be of value.

Nancy Grace (63:27)

Wow. You know what, Tammy Ballard, you're right. You just blew my mind. I didn't think of trying an M Vac. And it's so obvious. How would an M Vac potentially work on foliage?

Tammy Ballard (63:40)

It depends on the surface area of those leaves on that foliage. But, you know, the M Vac is designed to collect every cell. You could also use an alternate light source. If it is transferred from saliva, that's something that should give you some sort of fluorescence to maybe hone in on a particular area so you. You can kind of control your surface area. But the M Vac is designed to collect every cell. I don't know if MVAC has been used on plant material, who they'd be willing to try. So it has to be somebody who's willing to go forward and say, you know what? We haven't tried it, so we can't say no.

Nancy Grace (64:19)

Well, you brought up another theory, a possibility of using alternate light source. And what she's talking about. This is what it would look like. You typically do it in the dark or semi darkness, and you shine an alternate light source, which means basically not your lamp, not your overhead light. It's a. Do any of you remember black light posters? Something like that? That's what you see. DNA, saliva, and other DNA, they fluoresce. They fluoresce. That's a verb. Like fluorescent light. They fluoresce, and you see them in the semi darkness when you use this alternate light source. I don't see why that would not work on plants. I'm skeptical regarding an M Vac, but I don't see why ALS would not work on those plants if there is DNA there, and DNA is very sensitive. I've been holding this pen. My DNA is on it. If I take A bite light out of my mouth repeatedly and put it back in. I'm getting my saliva on my fingertips. Then you pick up the foliage. It's just that simple. If the foliage has been secured and taken into evidence, which I doubt because we didn't get this video until weeks later from Google. But, you know, you brought this up, Tammy Ballard, you invited this question. What's one of the craziest things you've been asked to evaluate for DNA?

Tammy Ballard (65:58)

Well, I think I'm probably one of the. I think I'm the only DNA analyst in the country, maybe the world, who was able to obtain DNA from melted biological tissue for the cartel. So we had two individuals that were melted in acid, and I obtained a DNA profile from the melted tissue. So it was probably my most unique and most difficult. I've had a lot of challenging samples, but that's why I will never tell somebody, no, you can't get DNA unless I've tried or I know somebody who's tried and not succeeded.

Nancy Grace (66:40)

You know, Tammy Ballard, I know that using an M Vac on foliage is not SOP standard Operating Procedure, but it has been done, right? It has been done.

Tammy Ballard (66:54)

Yes, it has been done. And I will say items that I have actually swabbed myself, the traditional methods, where I've taken two wet swabs and swabbed, you know, let's say, a rock that was from a homicide. I've covered some of that surface area as best that I can and obtained results that weren't sufficient for DNA testing or comparison. And someone has used the M Vac after that, obtained sufficient DNA. So it is designed to collect everything that could be missed from swabbing an item.

Nancy Grace (67:34)

Right. An M Vac is actually a microbial vacuum system. It's like a hand vac, and it has located viruses and toxins on foliage, specifically lime and acorn leaves. So it can pick up DNA off foliage. It's rare, but it has been done, and it can be done very quickly. To Dave Mack, what can you tell me about an electrician's permit for work done just before Nancy Guthrie goes missing?

Dave Mack (68:13)

During the month of January, Nancy, security work was being done by an electrician inside Nancy Guthrie's home. An entire electrical panel had to be replaced and updated and upgraded. That required some special tools, couple of days of work. Don't know how many people were on the electrician's crew, but we know of at least one, certainly because that was the contract. And the work was finished just before Nancy Guthrie went missing.

Nancy Grace (68:42)

Okay. Brian Fitzgibbons I don't like coincidences as it relates to disappearances or violent crimes. I don't like coincidences. An electrician's work crew was in and around her home and then she goes missing. That's got to be investigated.

Brian Fitzgibbons (69:00)

Absolutely. They're going to know the name of everybody associated with that account. And also, really, who knew that the work was being done at Mrs. Guthrie's and who potentially could have known the connection to Savannah. You know, who even saw the sales slip, who even saw the work order. Everyone at that contractor will certainly be interviewed and looked at.

Nancy Grace (69:28)

Day Mac. Let me throw you and Jeff Martin a monkey wrench. Let me throw you a curve ball. Was there an Amazon delivery at Nancy Guthrie's home the morning before she's kidnapped? She's kidnapped that night, that morning, Nancy,

Dave Mack (69:50)

what appears to be an Amazon delivery box is pictured. There you go. On the front porch where we found the video of porch guy. This is shocking evidence that it was there.

Nancy Grace (70:04)

Okay, of course, we're going to have to time it out and find out when the package got there, but to Jeff Martin, digital forensics expert instructor, Davenport University, Jeff Martin, I'm not saying that the delivery driver spotted anyone skulking around, but Jeff, we know that authorities have asked for information about vehicles and more as it relates to 10am the morning she's kidnapped, later that night, 10am Isn't it true that many delivery trucks, such as Amazon, keeps video like an Uber car keeps video of what's happening? To say, yes, here I am, here I did deliver your package. So you telling me you didn't get it is a lie. Here I am doing it. Many of them have video to document deliveries, right?

Jeff Martin (71:11)

Definitely images, Nancy, you know, a standard practice is the Amazon driver will take a picture of the package sitting where they left it, right. Just to prove that they delivered it. And Amazon vehicles. I work a lot of cases involving Amazon delivery trucks getting into accidents, and not a lot of them have camera recording type systems, but that's certainly a possibility. Other things to note are not just Amazon delivers for Amazon. Amazon farms out a lot of their deliveries. I happen to have a wife that we tend to get Amazon packages almost every day. And a lot of times the Amazon delivery drivers are in personal vehicles or rented vehicles. And of course, all of those vehicles have the potential to have video recording devices built into them as well as, you know, other digital evidence. But also the Amazon driver. It would be really important to talk to the Amazon driver, you know, determine who would. Who delivered the package and what did you See, when you delivered that package, did you see an electric, you know, a construction vehicle parked near the house? Did you see an electrician's vehicle parked near the house? You know, we had the electrical repair conducted on the, on Ms. Guthrie's house shortly before the incident. Maybe one of their vehicles came back to surveil or you know, there's all kinds of possibilities with regards to digital, not just digital evidence.

Nancy Grace (72:48)

Yeah, what I'm looking at specifically, not that they may or may not have caught the actual perp strolling along the street, but the vehicle. Because research reveals Amazon delivery vehicles are equipped with AI powered cameras. It is the Netridyne driver system. It has four high def lenses with a 360 degree, a 270 degree coverage of the road. The size the driver and they record continuously while the ignition is on. Bam. So what I want to know is when that package arrived and if there's anything probative, not just when the Amazon driver pulls up to Nancy Guthrie's home, but along the route. Do you see the possibilities?

Brian Fitzgibbons (73:41)

BRIAN fitzgibbons Absolutely. And you know, it's important to remember we, we have, we've had time to analyze some of this new, this evidence. It's been around for a while. Right. Think about how much more time investigators from the FBI now at their office in Phoenix able to dissect and analyze this. I think that this, you know, if you see what we can do here, there will be more possibilities with federal investigators.

Nancy Grace (74:13)

If you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, Please call anonymous FBI 800-225-5324, 225-5324 or 520-8827-4635, 208-826-7463. There is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of Nancy Guthrie. Thank you to our guests tonight, but especially to you for being with us and helping us keep the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Nancy Gray signing off but I'll see you tomorrow night and until then, good night, friend.

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Nancy Grace (75:37)

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