SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: FROM THE BEGINNING

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: FROM THE BEGINNING

Original Air Date: February 8, 2026
Host: Nancy Grace
Notable Guests: Dave Mack (Crime Stories investigator), Dr. Bethany Marshall (psychoanalyst), Brian Fitzgibbons (USPA Nationwide Security), Dr. Grace Stafford (zoologist), Jessica Finn (The US Sun reporter), Jeffrey Gentry (forensic bloodstain analyst), Chris McDonough (Cold Case Foundation), Todd Shipley (cybercrime expert)
Summary by: [Name/AI, as requested]

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Episode Overview

This emotional and deeply investigative episode details the mysterious disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, 84-year-old mother of Today show co-host Savannah Guthrie. The episode chronicles the timeline of events, status of the investigation, evidence collected, ransom note developments, law enforcement challenges, and the emotional toll on the Guthrie family as the search enters its sixth day. The podcast features expert analysis from criminologists, forensic specialists, and cyber investigators, painting a chilling picture of what law enforcement believes to be a targeted abduction. Nancy Grace and her panel highlight leads, evidence, possible motives, and pleas from the Guthrie family.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Case Background & Timeline

[02:58, 03:21, 82:30]

• Nancy Guthrie, 84, residing in Catalina Foothills, AZ (near Tucson), reported missing.
• Last seen: Sat. night, ~9:30–9:45pm, after being dropped home by her son-in-law Tommaso (not daughter Annie, as initially reported) after a dinner at Annie’s house.
• Key timeline:
  • 9:48pm (Sat): Garage door opens (Nancy being dropped home)
  • 9:50pm: Garage closes
  • 1:47am (Sun): Doorbell camera disconnects
  • 2:00am: Pacemaker spikes (possible physical distress)
  • 2:12am: Software detects movement on a camera, but only logs event (no video)
  • 2:28am: Pacemaker app disconnects from her phone (possibly moved out of Bluetooth range)
  • 11:56am: Family checks on Nancy, finds her missing
  • 12:03pm: 911 call placed

“At 2:00 am, there was a noticeable spike at her pacemaker. I believe that’s when the kidnapper or kidnappers were actually in her room and putting hands on her, getting her up out of bed.” – Dave Mack [132:07]

2. Evidence and Crime Scene Details

[14:00, 26:00, 31:11, 94:15]

• Nancy’s keys, purse, phone, medication all left behind.
• She had limited mobility and did not suffer from dementia or cognitive issues—unlikely she would or could leave on her own.
• Front door was left wide open, with signs of forced entry.
• Lights in common areas were left on.
• Doorbell camera (Nest) was physically removed; before police arrival.
• Granny cams installed inside, but no recording as subscription lapsed; footage overwritten.

“There is a blood trail going from the entryway of the home out to the driveway... and the doorbell camera had been removed before law enforcement arrived.” – Dave Mack [32:54]

3. Blood Pattern and Forensic Analysis

[53:01, 55:04, 160:17, 161:30]

• Blood found at the scene is confirmed as Nancy’s DNA.
• Bloodstain experts say the patterns are passive drip stains, not indicating a violent or fatal injury.
• Blood trail suggests she was upright and moving, likely with assistance, not dragged or killed on-site.
• Location and amount of blood, coupled with lack of blood pools, is somewhat hopeful.

“These are passive blood drops, drip stains... no blood pools, no cast-off. Nothing that suggests a major violent event.” – Jeffrey Gentry [55:04]

4. Search and Investigation Efforts

[06:32, 38:28, 145:20, 168:08]

• Rapid deployment of law enforcement assets: local sheriff, homicide team, canine teams, drones, helicopters, border patrol.
• FBI is involved; U.S. Customs and Border Protection provided early assistance.
• Crime scene was prematurely released and then secured again, raising concerns about contamination and lost evidence.
• Standard procedures: license plate readers, canvassing for surveillance (limited by set-back houses and foliage), canine tracking, cell tower dumps.
• Expanded search perimeter after new evidence/suspicions.
• The neighborhood's geography and lack of comprehensive security camera coverage present investigation challenges.

“All of these signs—knowing the camera’s location, removing it, knowing Nancy would be alone—all point to someone with insider knowledge.” – Brian Fitzgibbons [36:36]

5. Abduction Theory & Suspect Discussion

[40:22, 41:32, 69:05, 117:48]

• Evidence points to targeted abduction:
  • Doorbell camera removal and garage timeline indicate deliberate planning.
  • Knowledge of her habits, home layout, and medical needs suggest close surveillance or inside information.
  • At least two perpetrators suspected, given the difficulty of moving a non-ambulatory elderly woman without detection; possible “junior” kidnapper involved in pre-abduction scoping.
  • Suspicious persons seen by neighbors in the area weeks prior.
  • Working theory is either someone with regular access to her home or connected to those individuals (landscaper, home health aide, etc.).

“Investigators are going to start looking at anybody who’s in and around that house with a degree of regularity... who might hear that Savannah Guthrie’s mother lives right down the road and know that this could be a target.” – Brian Fitzgibbons [41:32]

6. Ransom Note and Digital Threats

[45:45, 48:54, 75:55, 98:27, 126:40]

• Multiple ransom notes received by news outlets (TMZ, KOLD, KGUN) — not sent directly to family.
• Notes allege knowledge of private details about the home and Nancy’s appearance.
• Demands millions in Bitcoin, with deadlines (“or else”).
• Proof of life absent—raising doubts as to whether note is genuine or a hoax.
• FBI publicly investigating these, with one individual already arrested in California for a fake ransom attempt using interstate communications.
• Concerns of AI/deepfaked images in ransom emails; pleas from family for real proof of life.
• Law enforcement bogged down by a flood of fake ransom notes/tips.

“For this ransom note to hold weight, the author... would have to provide some kind of proof of life...that is missing.” – Brian Fitzgibbons [48:54]

7. Digital Forensics & Law Enforcement Tactics

[107:23, 109:08, 140:09, 142:03]

• Cellebrite UFED (mobile device extraction) deployed to family devices to recover contacts, texts, any shared apps (Uber, granny cams, etc.), not just for suspect screening but to understand digital patterns and possibly recover deleted evidence that might show home monitoring or clues.
• Digital experts clarify that VPNs, anonymous emails, Bitcoin wallets create strong forensic challenges but are not insurmountable for the FBI.
• All close contacts being examined and potentially polygraphed. Investigative focus radiates outward from family to caregivers, service personnel, church members, neighbors.
• All evidence leveraging both high-tech and “old school” (boots on the ground, door-to-door questions, canine tracking).

“Cellebrite... can get deleted texts, emails, IMs, can get encrypted data... all these things can be shared between phones now.” – Todd Shipley [140:09]

8. Family and Emotional Impact

[86:33, 122:25, 127:56]

• The Guthrie siblings (Savannah, Annie, Cameron) made public, emotional pleas for their mother’s return.
• Savannah is reportedly devastated, “at her wits end,” but actively involved in the search in Arizona.
• Media and NBC staff, along with the family, have had to increase security due to threats and online trolling.
• Law enforcement and Nancy Grace firmly reject speculation that any of the adult children are involved.

“Nancy’s children are not responsible for this. I look at their demeanor, they are distraught... this is a beloved mother and grandmother.” – Dr. Bethany Marshall [86:33]

“We are always going to be merely human. Just normal human people who need our mom. Mama, if you’re listening, we need you to come home.” – Savannah Guthrie [123:59]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “We have a front door that is unlocked, but police say there was forced entry. ...there was blood going from the entryway to the driveway. And we do have a neighbor saying he saw a mysterious car shortly after Annie dropped her mom off.” – Dave Mack [32:54]
• “Taking, dismantling the doorbell cam does not stop what’s already been recorded. Right now, it’s in the clouds somewhere.” – Nancy Grace [35:35]
• “Passive blood drops...indicate one, this is not a major injury...it also indicates that this person is upright.” – Jeffrey Gentry [55:04]
• “There’s a 25-minute gap from when that camera was disconnected to when that person is registered. What happened within that 25 minutes and how was nothing captured by these other cameras inside the house?” – Brian Fitzgibbons [111:41]
• “All of these signs...point to somebody with insider knowledge of Mrs. Guthrie.” – Brian Fitzgibbons [36:36]
• “Every single contact leaves a trace. That’s one of the foundations of forensic science.” – Jeffrey Gentry [145:20]
• “You want to keep the kidnapped person alive. But in a case like this, with an elderly person, I don’t know that they’re thinking that far ahead.” – Dr. Bethany Marshall [104:02]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Time (MM:SS) | Summary | |-------------------------|----------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Timeline establishment | 02:58 - 04:27 | Last seen, missing report, initial LE response | | Crime scene evidence | 14:00 - 16:46 | Forced entry, door left open, blood trail, doorbell cam removed | | Forensic/blood analysis | 53:01 - 57:10 | Passive blood spatter, upright movement, implications for health status | | Ransom note discussion | 45:45 - 50:19 | Multiple ransom notes, lack of proof of life, digital forensics complexity | | Law enforcement methods | 107:23 - 110:32| Digital data extraction, Cellebrite, app and device sharing, screening digital evidence | | Emotional family pleas | 122:25 - 126:22| Savannah and Cameron Guthrie's public appeals, emotional impact | | Search efforts recap | 38:28 - 40:22 | Perimeter expansion, the geography challenge, returning to and expanding search of home and area | | Suspect/motive theories | 40:22 - 42:25 | Focus on insider knowledge, local connection, not a random act | | Family exoneration | 86:33 - 88:08 | Rejecting speculation about family involvement, expert emotional analysis | | Technology used | 140:09 - 143:25| Importance of digital device forensics, shared apps, and traditional “old school” search approaches |

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Flow of Investigation and Current Theories

• Targeted abduction is the prevailing theory; the abductor(s) had insider knowledge or observed Nancy long enough to plan around her security and routines.
• Planned operation: Doorbell cam removal, garage door timing, and the handling of indoor security feeds suggest significant premeditation.
• Insider or close associate suspected: Because of knowledge of the home, Nancy’s habits, need for medications, caregiver status, and camera locations.
• At least two perpetrators likely: Because of Nancy’s mobility limitations and the logistical challenge in removing her without detection.
• Motive: Appears predominantly financial due to ransom demands; the “or else” phrasing and absence of direct family contact in ransom notes creates skepticism.
• Digital forensics and old-school methods both vital: Law enforcement must merge technological avenues (device dumps, LPRs, digital ransoms) and traditional forensic science (blood pattern analysis, canvassing, canines).

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Action Points & Law Enforcement Appeals

• Tip line: 520-351-4900 and FBI tipline 800-CALL-FBI.
• $50,000 reward for information leading to Nancy Guthrie’s recovery.
• Pleas for public awareness: Check surveillance cameras, report suspicious people/vehicles, review any digital communications that may be relevant.

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Emotional and Societal Impact

• The Guthrie family’s emotional devastation is palpable, with Savannah’s and Cameron’s public appeals underlining their hope and heartbreak.
• The case’s high profile has led to increased trolling and threats; NBC has ramped up security.
• The outsized media coverage has, according to law enforcement, both helped and hindered progress due to fake tips and ransom hoaxes.

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Conclusion

The disappearance of Nancy Guthrie is a complex, rapidly evolving case believed by all experts involved to be a targeted, insider-informed abduction. Forensic evidence signals planning, and the absence of catastrophic signs (blood pools, clear violence) offers a narrow window of hope for her survival, especially given her need for medication. Law enforcement pursues a dual strategy—pursuing both high-tech leads (digital forensics, ransom tracking) and classic police work (canvassing, forensic scene reconstruction, suspect profiles). The Guthrie family, and especially Savannah, have become public faces of heartbreak and resilience in the face of tragedy, with widespread calls for public vigilance and prayer.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[B]

This is very concerning to us. We don't typically. You don't typically get the sheriff out at a scene like this, but it's very concerning what we're learning from the house and so we'll just continue detectives there. Our homicide team is out right now looking at the scene as well. What is it about the scene that concerns you? You know, I don't want to get into those details. I would just tell you that it's certain of grave concern to us just what we see there and we'll continue to look. So you suspect foul play? I don't. I'm not ruling it out. Okay.

[A]

Would you gauge the chances are that it's foul play. Would you be willing to give us.

[B]

Any idea on that? I hope it's not. I hope we find her. I hope we find her safe and sound.

[A]

Tonight, our friend Savannah Guthrie needs our help, including you. Her 84 year old mother in Arizona is missing. Right now it's being treated as a crime scene. Straight out to Dave Mack joining us, investigative reporter, crime stories. Dave, what do we know?

[B]

We know that Nancy, A relative called 911 yesterday just around 12 noon and reported Nancy Guthrie, 84 years old, missing. Now Nancy, there are several things to consider here. The sheriff's department has already said this looks like a crime scene in that house. They went out right away and already got boots on the ground. They even brought in homicide detectives early. Nancy, I do want to clarify that. Nancy Guthrie at 84 years old lives in Catalina Foothills which is just north of Tucson, Arizona. She was last seen Saturday night around 9:30. It was on Sunday as I said midday when a relative called 911 saying we've got a missing woman and I've got to assume there's more to it based on the amount of assets being used right now to locate her.

[A]

Guys, at this hour our friend, my former co worker Savannah Guthrie needs our help. Her mother, her 84 year old mother has gone missing. Nancy Guthrie, gone, last seen Sunday night. Mrs. Guthrie, 5 5, 150 pounds, brown hair, beautiful blue eyes, just like Savannah. There is a tip line 5203-5149-0052-0351-4900. Now this is in the Catalina foothills near Tucson in Arizona. Please look at this photo. We know what Savannah looks like. This is her mother. Please help us find this 84 year old mom. Another thing I'm learning. Dave Mack. Hold on Dave. I'm being joined now by not only Dr. Bethany Marshall, our friend joining us out of LA, but Brian Fitzgibbons. He is the director of operations for USPA Nationwide Security. He leads a team of investigators, they go all over the world specializing in locating missing people. Uspasecurity.com Brian, thank you for joining us tonight. Brian I know this. I know that we're being told left behind are her keys, her id, her purse, her phone, everything. That's what we're learning at this hour. What do we do now? She's limited in mobility. Listen to me, the sheriff, Chris Nano says she did not just walk out of there. Brian. So what do we do right now I would immediately bring in canines, both types of canines, scent dogs, tracker dogs and cadaver dogs. I bring them Both in right now?

[B]

Absolutely, Nancy. And Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanos has made some immediate coordination to have those things happen. You had canine teams brought over from customs and Border Patrol, helicopter assets in the air, as well as drones with search and rescue technologies searching the immediate area because as you said, Nancy Guthrie, being 84 years old with some medical conditions, was not going to walk on her own power a significant distance. So those assets have been utilized and unfortunately, law enforcement has come up with nothing from that.

[A]

Okay. Brian Fitzgibbons. I just made a horrible, horrible mistake. Dr. Bethany Marshall. I just. When Brian was talking about her needing meds, I thought about my mom last night. I don't know, quarter of 12, I was in my mom's room. She lives with us. She just turned 94. And I saw where she had not had her night meds. And they're in one of those big boxes, you know, where you lay them out. There's so many day by day, and there's morning meds and there's night meds. And if she doesn't have those meds, she'll die. They thin her blood, therefore her heart. They're just. I don't even know what they all are. And without those meds, she'll die. My mom will die. She has to have those meds. And I was thinking about what the sheriff said, that she's not mobile. She can't, you know, just walk out of there. They're treating it like a crime scene. Dr. Bethany. And I know we keep showing smiley pictures of Savannah Bethany. But Savannah is not just a famous TV star. You know, she's the co host of the Today show. I still think of Savannah when she first came to join me at Court tv. And she is the same sweet, kind person now that she was then before she became a huge star. Just when you see her smiling, unlike a lot of TV people, that's real. That's who Savannah is. And I'm thinking tonight, Dr. Bethany, when you have your mom in a, let's just say a rest home or a retirement community, and that's what the mom wants. They want to be independent. They want to live on their own. But the whole time you're riddled with fear. Yes, you're taking care of your own children, your own family, your own job, but every day you're worried. I wonder if mom's okay. But I know she must be totally riddled with fear, Nancy. She must be terrified, you know, because you have a 94 year old mom. And I just lost my 95 year old dad this past year. When you have a parent that age, it activates the same feelings as if.

[B]

You have a baby. You're always wondering, is the baby okay? Are they being cared for? Even if they're in a nursing home, Are there meals being brought regularly?

[A]

Is somebody abusing them? Parents want autonomy.

[B]

Mine did.

[A]

He had his car keys until the day he died.

[B]

He did not want to go to a nursing facility. I arranged everybody in the church to visit him on a regular basis. He just thought he had millions of friends, which he did.

[A]

But he didn't realize everybody was. Was kind of having like a caretaker.

[B]

Network, if you know what I mean.

[A]

So Savannah already is struggling with feelings.

[B]

And has been, I'm sure she and her sibling group and her family with how do we take care of mom?

[A]

And when a parent goes into a facility of some sort, what happens is that the caretaker usually needs respite, meaning they're having caregiver burnout. But on the other hand, it goes.

[B]

Against all of their internalized belief systems about what it means to care for family members.

[A]

So it sets in place like this.

[B]

Complex, complex bereavement process. Nancy, I'm so worried about this mom.

[A]

I have to say one more thing. Was she being targeted by somebody who.

[B]

Was defrauding her, taking her money, or.

[A]

Targeting her because of a lurid fascination with Savannah? Was she targeted because of her daughter's notoriety? There's so much more we need to know about this case, Dr. Bethany, that just adds more suffering onto Savannah, to think that somehow someone targeted her mother because of her. Dave Mack, crime Stories investigative reporter. We are hearing that Ms. Guthrie, Nancy Guthrie, vanished shortly after being dropped off at home by friends. She was coming home from a church function on Saturday night. Are those the people to last see her? I wonder if she made a phone call or anything after that.

[B]

Well, that's what we know, is that she was dropped off, and it was family that actually was with her when they dropped her off Saturday evening. Now she does live by herself, Nancy. And it was the next morning. Now, remember, we said she did something with church on Saturday evening. So when she didn't show up at church on Sunday morning, members of the church contacted family, and they went to the house, and that's when they discovered she was missing. So we know when she arrived at home, and we know that she did not go to church the next morning. A couple of other things to point out, Nancy. Law enforcement is saying they are not treating this as anything other than a crime scene at her house. That's Important, because usually we're talking about these as we're looking for somebody. It's a missing person. They're talking. This is a crime scene. She did not leave the home on her own. And they have added. You mentioned the medication. Her not getting her medication within 24 hours is a fatal thing for her. So this medication, everything about this, it is really timely right now. Time is of the essence.

[A]

Nancy, another thing. Dave Mack. Hey, let me throw this to Brian Fitzgibbons because it may weigh in on his opinion of what should be happening right now. Brian, Nancy Guthrie, Savannah's mother, is not suffering from dementia or Alzheimer's or any other mental defect at all. She has no cognitive decline.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Nothing. It's not like she just wandered out of the house and she just wandered into a body of water and died. That did not happen. Here's what I wanted to throw at you, Brian. Her front door, we are told, was wide open. Now, Brian, nobody leaves their door wide open. Like the last thing my mom says as I'm walking out of her room at night, shut the door. Because she thinks it's colder in her room if I leave the door open. And she's actually right. There's no way this 84 year old mom leaves her door wide open. That didn't happen. So that said, what do we do?

[B]

Yeah, you've correctly highlighted something here. This is not a standard case of a missing elder where some medical event has led to temporary confusion or that there was early onset dementia or something like that. We have the Pima county sheriff clearly identifying that this is a crime scene. We have a door left wide open. Right. Which a woman living alone is not going to. Of sound mind is not going to do this. And he's been very crystal clear about the assets that have been brought in very quickly. So all of these things add up to let us know that Something happened to Ms. Guthrie on the night of the 31st after she was dropped off, and that this is.

[A]

And in just a few hours, Brian, we've got a very narrow timeline. She's dropped off from the church function Saturday evening, Sunday morning, time for church. She's gone. We got maybe a 10 hour window right there. How does that help, Brian? Or hurt?

[B]

That's incredibly helpful because what law enforcement is doing now, and in the statement that just happened hours ago, they are beginning an extensive search of license plate readers, all camera surveillance in the area. They're soliciting tips from the public. So they're shifting their focus to a technology focus now to piece together that timeline, having it narrowed down is going to make it a faster process.

[A]

Savannah, of course, has left New York and is in Arizona aiding in the search for her mother. There's no way Savannah Guthrie would sit home while other people are looking for her beloved mother, Nancy Guthrie. Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter Did I understand that the FBI has been brought in?

[B]

They have been, Nancy. And you know, authorities are not aware of any threats against Savannah Guthrie. But Nancy, you mentioned that Savannah Guthrie is a very high profile news celebrity and co host of the NBC Today show. Would not be unusual for threats against her. They're not saying that, but the FBI is aware of this case, as is U.S. customs and Border Protection also assisting Nancy. You know, they brought in all the assets, drones, helicopters and everything right away. But, you know, we have found out they've all been sent home. At this point, I don't know what they found out, but certain aspects of this investigation are changing.

[A]

Guys, if you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of Savannah's mom, Nancy Guthrie, please dial 520-351-4900. Repeat, 520-351-4900. And of course, please join us in prayer that Nancy Guthrie has brought home alive and well. Aldous Hodge returns as Alex Cross, your favorite detective on television for season two of the hit show Cross, premiering February 11th exclusively on Prime Video. Critics call season one one of the year's best shows with over 40 million viewers worldwide. And on February 11th, the story continues with a new season from creator Ben Watkins and based on characters created by James Patterson. Cross is Washington, D.C. 's most brilliant homicide detective and forensic psychologist. Fresh off his capture of the infamous serial killer, the fanboy, Cross teams up with the FBI to hunt down a vigilante serial killer targeting corrupt billionaires. As the case unfolds, Cross navigates a moral crossroads where the lines between justice and vengeance are blurred. Cross is back and better than ever this season. Get ready for a new case. Higher stakes, but the same cross. Watch season two of Cross new episodes weekly starting February 11th only on Prime Video.

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[A]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news. Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, missing Day three what does a mystery car have to do with this? Also, we are learning the DNA found inside Mrs. Guthrie's home is her DNA. That DNA significant because it leads law enforcement to state that she has been abducted. When asked is abducted too strong of a word to use, the Pima county sheriff says no, she was dragged out of her home. This 84 year old grandma in the night. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. First of all, joining me in all star panel to make sense of what we are learning right now, we're getting to the DNA found in her home. It's been reported that it was blood. We don't know that yet, but we do know it is Nancy Guthrie's DNA. However, it's her home. Of course her DNA is there. So what concerns the police about that DNA? Is it the amount of DNA? Is it the location of the DNA? I'm going to get into it, but I need to go to Grace Stafford right now. It's Dr. Grace Stafford. He is the star of podcast Zoologic, author of Zoomility. He is faculty member Grand Canyon University and so much more. But Dr. Grace Stafford, let me get right to it. You are joining us from Arizona. You're familiar intimately with this jurisdiction. What can you tell me about the terrain and the animal life?

[B]

Nancy, as her neighborhood implies, she's located at the base of the Santa Catalina Mountain range. And so with that wild habitat and change of elevation, it's much cooler there than you would see say in Phoenix, Arizona, downtown Phoenix. It's about twice the elevation of Phoenix. So the daytime and nighttime temperatures are cooler. With that change of elevation, you might get some wildlife coming in from the mountains looking for prey animals like mountain lions. Would not be uncommon to drop into those kind of wild urban areas like where she lives.

[A]

What do you mean by that? It would not be uncommon for mountain lions to be in the area?

[B]

Well, any wildlife is going to look for prey and with all the human activities there, golf courses and so forth, there's a lot of grass. You're Going to have prey species like javelina deer, rabbits and other small mammals. And so predators like mountain lions frequently will drop in from their more wild habitats to forage and then hightail it out of there back into the mountain.

[A]

Gray again, thank you for being with us. I'm trying to identify what, if any, perils she would face. Now, I don't believe that Nancy Guthrie, who has mobility issues, no dementia, no cognitive decline. I do not believe that she walked out of her place on a walkabout. However, she may be out in that terrain at someone else else's, by someone else's hand. You stated about the temperatures, how they dip at night, how cold it gets. You've told me about the wildlife in the area. What can you tell me about the terrain itself around her neighborhood?

[B]

Well, it's, it's relatively flat, but it quickly climbs in elevation like any foothills area. And mountain Lemon is found within this mountain range. It's one of the top, highest peaks in Arizona. So you do get a rapid change of elevation once you leave her neighborhood. And exposure is certainly concern. Although we've had a mild winter, temperatures right now are running 10 to 12 degrees Fahrenheit, higher than normal. But still that's, that's really, it's wintertime. It's still rather cool for someone to be out and be exposed to the elements for a long period of time.

[A]

And at her age. Dr. Grace Stafford, straight to Dave Mack. Joining us, crime Stories, investigative reporter Dave A lot is happening and it's happening quickly. Number one, we know that DNA is found at the scene. That is Nancy Guthrie's. We know that DNA made police believe that a struggle had ensued and she was actually kidnapped from her home. Hold on. I'm going to take this to Brian Fitzgibbons. Brian, you are being told from your sources that no one will confirm what type of DNA it is, regardless of media outlets insisting that it's blood. What do you know?

[B]

Yeah. So media outlets have provided information that there was blood, but the Pima County Sheriff's Office, in a statement released to media outlets, has, has not confirmed that, reporting that they are. They are saying that they've connected the DNA to Mrs. Guthrie, but they will not indicate if that is indeed blood.

[A]

Brian Fitzgibbons, There had to be something. Just assumed that the media outlets are correct, that it is her blood. There had to be something about the blood that raised law enforcement's suspicions because her blood could be on a knife in the kitchen. It could be on the kitchen sink, it could be in the bathroom. She may have had a nosebleed. She may have cut her finger. She may have stubbed her toe. That. That's not suspicious. What would be suspicious about her blood that would concern law enforcement, Brian Fitzgibbons. Is the amount of the blood. Is it a copious amount of blood or the location of the blood? Is there blood on the door, the front door, as she is being taken out of the door, or the nature of the blood, Brian Fitzgibbons. Is it a spray indicating a gunshot wound? Is there blood spatter indicating a sharp instrument was used and that she was bludgeoned? So what I'm trying to get at, Brian Fitzgibbons, just her blood or her DNA there in her home means nothing. It's got to be either the location, the amount, or the nature of the blood. Weigh in, Fitzgibbons.

[B]

Correct. And you look at this crime scene, as it's been called by Pima County Sheriff Nanos, that this is indeed a crime scene, that he does have evidence of a forced entry, that he does have evidence at the crime scene that Mrs. Guthrie left against her will. And you combine that with DNA found at the scene, you know, that paints a picture of what we're seeing. Was there a trail of blood leading out to the driveway? Was there blood spatter? Something connected the dots with those other statements that the sheriff made to lead to this conclusion that that DNA connected the dots on this being a potential abduction.

[A]

And again, joining us, Dr. Gray Stafford. Gray, another issue is this. When we hear blood, Nancy Guthrie's blood caused concern amongst le law enforcement. That doesn't. I'm trying to look at this in a bright light, in the best light possible for Ms. Guthrie. That does not necessarily mean she was bludgeoned or stabbed or shot. Maybe she was struck. Maybe it. When you are struck in the face, a nosebleed can be very profuse. You bleed a lot from any injury around your nose or your mouth. So that could be a more innocent explanation. Not a good one, but a more innocent one.

[B]

Yes, it certainly could. And it. And as you, your other guest, pointed out, it's the amount, it's the proximity to the house, the driveway. Was it a trail? Was it a single spot? A lot of open questions. Still.

[A]

You know, I want to go back over what we're learning at this hour. For those of you just joining us, Nancy Guthrie is 84. She is the mom of our friend Savannah Guthrie of NBC today. She's 5 5. She weighs about 150 pounds. Brown hair, beautiful blue eyes. She lives alone, upscale Community. Last seen Sunday evening at a church function. Last seen Saturday evening at a church function. The following morning when it's time for her to go to church services. No. Nancy, she has mobility problems. I'm guessing someone came to give her a ride and she didn't come to the door. The front door unlocked. We are now learning there are signs of forced entry. The lights in the front of the home were on. We are learning and this isn't helping anything. Brian Fitzgibbons. That there is a gravel driveway. We're not going to get any car prints or any car evidence off gravel. Explain.

[B]

No, you're not going to collect any. And, and I'll add to this the neighborhood itself. Not only are there dirt and gravel driveways, these houses are set back quite far off of the road. So the chance of catching doorbell camera footage or security camera footage from neighboring houses is very low. In my opinion. When you look at the scenery on that street, it's very unlikely that law enforcement is going to be able to get any significant security footage from neighbors. Just the, the houses are set back quite a bit off of the road. It looks to be anywhere from 50 to 100 yards. And there's vegetation along the side of the road for privacy. So you can see, you can see that there on the map as, as you get down on that road, that vegetation is pretty tall. And I've seen some videos from the road itself. So it's going to be unlikely that those cameras are capturing anything.

[A]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. You know, I've got a time discrepancy. Dave Mack. Dave Mack, Crime stories Investigative reporter. Maybe it's not a discrepancy because I had a judge, an awesome judge, oldest judge in the courthouse, Luther Alversley, that would tell the jury every jury trial, it is your duty to make all witnesses speak the truth, impugning perjury on no one. In other words, two statements can both be true and we have to figure out how to reconcile them. We are learning from a neighbor that she was taken out of the home, short quote, shortly after being dropped off after church on Saturday night. And I guarantee you there is not a church potluck going on at 2:45am Dave Mack.

[B]

To be very clear here, Annie Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie's older sister, was with her mom and is the last person to see her mom. It was Annie Guthrie who dropped Nancy Guthrie off between 9:30 and 9:45pm that's what Annie says. Something else that comes into play, Nancy, There was blood drops from the entryway of the house leading out to the driveway. Something else. Lights in the common area. I use plural. Lights in the common area of the home were left on. The front door was unlocked, but there was forced entry. And something else that was said that the doorbell camera had been removed before law enforcement arrived, and it was phrased just that way. I don't know what that means, but they said it was removed before they arrived. So we've got a woman who cannot walk 50 yards on her own. We've got blood going from the entryway to the driveway. And we do have a neighbor saying he thought she saw a mysterious car in that neighborhood, on that road, near that house shortly after Annie Guthrie dropped her mom off.

[A]

Okay, Dave Mack, I want you to go through the salient points one more time because every one of them is probative. Each thing you said proves something. Start over.

[B]

All right. Annie Guthrie, the oldest daughter of Nancy, was out to dinner with Nancy on Saturday night and dropped her off at her home between 9:30 and 9:45pm that day. That's Annie Guthrie, the last person to see Nancy Guthrie. We have blood evidence, a blood trail going from the entryway of the home out to the driveway. We have a front door that is unlocked, but police say there was force entry. We have lights on in the common areas of the home. We know that Nancy Guthrie suffers from no type of Alzheimer's or dementia. She's sharp as attack, but she has physical issues so that she cannot walk on her own for 50 yards. So we have a neighbor that also says she saw a mysterious vehicle and one she didn't recognize in the neighborhood shortly after the time Nancy Guthrie was dropped off by her oldest daughter, annie, or between 9:30 and 9:45 that evening, Saturday night. And by the way, Nancy Guthrie attended church services so regularly, when she did not show up for her 11am worship service as usual, by 11:10, members of the church were on the phone with family members saying, hey, your mom's not at church. And that's why, Annie, they were over at Nancy Guthrie's home right away. They spent an hour looking all inside the home and around the home before they called police and notified them that she was gone.

[A]

I need you to add in, Dave Mack, what you learned about the door cam.

[B]

The. The door cam was shocking to me, Nancy, because of the phrasing that was used in this. Law enforcement says the door camera, the doorbell camera was removed before they arrived. And that was the terminology used, that this camera had been removed before they arrived.

[A]

Day, Mac, again, what did you say? About Mrs. Guthrie's doorbell cam being removed.

[B]

That's what law enforcement says, that she did have one, but that doorbell camera was removed before they made it to her house.

[A]

Okay, that puts a whole nother layer of planning onto this. And that is why I'm saying, Fitzgibbons, that this is not random. This is not a guy wandering around. And yes, typically it's a man wandering around that upscale neighborhood looking to steal your vcr or seeing your jewelry lying out by your bed or taking your electronics. No, this is not some dope addict coming in to get your oxy for your knee surgery. This is targeted. This is not random. The mystery car allegation compared with taking her doorbell cam, taking the ring cam, put. Put him up. First of all, that's the first sign the person's an idiot. Because taking. Dismantling the doorbell cam does not stop what's already been recorded. Right now, it's in the clouds somewhere.

[B]

That is correct. And Pima county sheriff Chris nanos has indicated that they are making moves right now to get access to that cloud to obtain that footage. And. And as you mentioned, Nancy, all of these signs, Knowing the location of a camera, removing it, knowing that Mrs. Guthrie would be alone, vulnerable at this time, Everything points to somebody with insider knowledge of Mrs. Guthrie.

[A]

Now, Brian Fitzgibbons, when you first heard Dave Mack report that her doorbell cam had been taken. That's all we know. Taken before law enforcement got there. You said there was video. The fact that the door cam was taken does not preclude the possibility that there was a nanny cam operating on the inside. Maybe in certain areas of the home, like the entranceway, the back door. There could be other surveillance camera other than the ring door cam.

[B]

Correct. There's a very good possibility that somebody like Mrs. Guthrie, with an association to her daughter, who's such a public figure, would have multiple cameras. It would be difficult to remove all of them in a quick fashion.

[A]

So, Dave Mack, I want to circle back to you. Dave Mack, Crime stories investigative reporter. We understand that at. At first we were told that the search of the area has been called off, and now they're focusing on the missing person aspect, not the recovery, Finding her in that area around the home. But now we're learning, Dave Mack, that law enforcement is going back and they are retracing their steps and then moving outward from the home. What do you know, Dave?

[B]

They're going to not just go outward from the home, Nancy. They're actually expanding what they were originally doing when they first started the search. They Had a ground game plan to go out and search. But now, as they've decided to come back, they obviously have information leading them to this. They're going back and retracing not just their footsteps from their original search, but they're also widening the search, making it a little bit bigger on the sides. As they go out from her home, they obviously have some information that has led them back down this path. Because if you remember, they very quickly said this type of a search is done. Helicopters were gone, drones were gone. Well, we got helicopters back in the air, we got drones back in the area. So they're doing another search, retracing their footsteps and expanding it a little bit.

[A]

So, Dr. Grace Stafford, star of Zoologic podcast, zoologist, consultant, author, faculty. What are they going to encounter as they expand the search? Okay, you're starting at her place and you're going out, out, out, out, out. Geographically.

[B]

Well, Nancy, a lot of people have the misconception that Arizona is a very barren terrain. There's actually a lot of wildlife and a lot of plant life here, much of which is very hazardous to walk through because they have thorns and that sort of thing. So moving out from our home, there's going to be trails, they're going to be dry washes where, when it rains, water will pass through. We haven't had a lot of moisture this winter, so I suspect that it's going to be very dry in the area. But it still may make passage difficult in some of those thick brush areas away from trails, away from washes.

[A]

Brian Fitzgibbons, don't you see where the facts are leading us? This is not random. If this were a random burglary, you'd have items taken from the home. We've heard nothing about that. It's not a family member. We know that now. You have to move out someone that knew her in the sense that they knew of her. They clearly waited until Annie dropped her off from the evening church event that Saturday night. According to the neighbor, the mystery car was seen shortly after that, which means they knew when she would be dropped off. Either they were there or they already knew. They have an intimate knowledge of her life, that she lives alone. The doorbell cam was taken off the door. A lot is happening here, indicating it's not random. So let's run with it. Where do you go?

[B]

Investigators are going to start looking, Nancy, at anybody who's in and around that house with a degree of regularity. And I say this not to accuse a landscaper, a pool tech, a home health aide, anybody who's a home cleaner coming into that house regularly. They're going to expand and look at who lives with those people. Who do they associate with, who might hear that Savannah Guthrie's mother lives right down the road and know that this could be a target. So it may not necessarily be that, that person, that contractor that comes into the house, but it could be somebody that's connected to him. And I can guarantee you that investigators are going thoroughly down that list of individuals that have had regular and consistent access to Mrs. Guthrie's home.

[A]

You know, another issue, Dave Mack, is Savannah started with me at Court tv. She has covered missing people, she's covered homicide. She's covered it all. She knows all the statistics, she knows all the facts. And this has got to be excruciating for her. I'm trying to paint every fact not only nefariously but with in the best possible light. But this has got to be killing her as she gets dribbles and bits of evidence. Blood. Doorbell cam gone, just dragged from her bed. Mystery car. It's. It's heartbreaking.

[B]

Nancy, I will tell you that one of the things that I noticed when we first started looking into this story is how emotional you got and how many of her, Savannah Guthrie's co workers, people who have worked with her over the years, how emotional they got because she is genuinely, truly liked and she is actually at her wits end. She's. Yeah, as you mentioned, she's been down this road and covering stories. Savannah Guthrie is reaching out and saying, please pray, pray for my mom. We need her back. She knows all these signs are sadly not good and yet there's still hope. And there are even signs out in front of the yard somebody had made in front of Nancy Guthrie's home saying, we stand with you. You know, Savannah was on her way to covering the Olympics you mentioned she just returned to the set of the today show a week and a half ago after being off for throat surgery then where she couldn't even speak. And her voice is just now coming back. It's been a tough time for her over the last couple of months. She just got back on the set and now she's out, of course in Arizona to be there to help find her mom. And I think the shocking part of all of this, Nancy, is we have an 84 year old woman of sound mind, but with physical ailments preventing her from being able to go more than 50 yards. She has medication. She has to take 24 hours and the max she can go. And we're now well past that so she's without her medication. She might be hurt. We've got blood going from the entryway to the driveway. Nancy. At this hour, we are following up on claims there could be a ransom note with the alleged kidnappers demanding a specific amount of bitcoin and demanding the cryptocurrency be sent to a specific bitcoin address. To add to the mix, the bitcoin address has been verified as real. The alleged note has been forwarded to the Pima County Sheriff's Office. And responding to word of the possible ransom note, the Pima County Sheriff's Department took to X to say they are aware of reports circulating about possible ransom notes regarding the investigation into Nancy Guthrie. We are taking all tips and lead seriously. Anything that comes in goes directly to our detectives who are coordinating with the FBI. A possible break in the case, but as yet unverified.

[A]

Dave Mack, crime stories, investigative reporter, 100 detectives from the sheriff's office and the FBI. Now we are learning a ransom note, possibly the very same ransom note sent to not two, but three news outlets. That being our friends at tmz, Harvey Levin, K O L D and K G U N. Okay. Also at this hour, the sheriff coming out and stating there is no suspect, there is no poi, person of interest. But wouldn't you agree, everybody, that they always say there is no poi, there is no suspect because once you say X is a suspect, then X is shrouded in constitutional protections. That said, I choose to believe the sheriff. Dave Mack joining me. Dave, what is the latest as we go to air right now?

[B]

Right now, Nancy, we have been told that those the ransom notes going to three different locations. We're not being told whether or not they are the same note or if it was three different ones. But the content of the note, one of them anyway, specifically talks about places inside the home of Nancy Guthrie and talks about specific pieces of evidence at the crime scene that would only be known by somebody that was in there at that home. We also know, as you mentioned, 100 detectives are working on this case right now. Plus the FBI and President Donald Trump has promised even more support to get to Tucson, Arizona to try to find Nancy Guthrie.

[A]

You know, I want to look at that note one more time. I'm about to bring in Jessica Finn, senior investigator report with the US Sun. But to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining me. Let me see Bethany. Bethany, renowned psychoanalyst at the LA jurisdiction, author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock and you can find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com. Dr. Bethany, how'd that strike you? Or else. Or else that sounds like a fifth grade girl's novel. Do it or else. Or else what? Well, it's very coercive. It's very menacing and threatening. But if this was a real ransom note, Nancy, wouldn't this have been submitted or sent to the family privately? Wouldn't it have been sent earlier, like.

[B]

Right after the mother is missing when the family is completely frantic? The fact that it is sent to.

[A]

TMZ and another news agency has copycat written all over it. To me, something about it. Brian Fitzgibbons is joining me, director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security. What is that? He leads a team of investigative experts. They go all around the world looking for missing people. By the way, former Marine and Iraq War veteran Brian, there's something puerto something juvenile about or else. Who writes that? Do it or else. That phraseology is bugging me.

[B]

Yeah. And there was something notably missing from this alleged ransom note. And that is a proof of life. Right. For this ransom note to hold any weight, the author of the note would have to provide some kind of proof of life that they did have Nancy Guthrie in custody and that she was alive and well for that note to have any value.

[A]

Well, here's another thing. And Jessica Fan, let me go to Jessica very quickly, senior Investigative reporter, the U.S. sun. Jessica, thank you for being with us tonight. Jessica, what do you make of the so called ransom note being sent to three outlets and claiming knowledge of what Nancy Guthrie was wearing that at the time she was kidnapped and describing the interior of her home as it was left at the time of the abduction?

[B]

You know, the sheriff's department has been so close to the vest as to what information they're giving out to the media and it's been really interesting to watch. They're doing a great job at talking to us but not saying a lot. And I think that really this ransom note thing, we don't know if they've previously had a ransom note that they've discovered that was sent directly to the family and that who knows, maybe these people who have abducted her are getting frustrated by the sheriff's department not acknowledging them publicly. I mean, that could be a thing that's happening right now. The other thing is, and yes, there we have not heard that there's been proof of life.

[A]

However, the sheriff did say today during.

[B]

An interview with NBC that he believes Nancy's alive. And so as to why he is suddenly saying he believes Nancy is alive after these ransom notes went to news stations around the country yesterday doesn't there's something there. There's might be a there or there that maybe we just don't know because the sheriff again is holding these cards so close to the vest despite, you know, being accessible to the media.

[A]

I want to bring in Jeffrey Gentry joining us, forensic certified blood stain pattern analyst, senior crime scene analyst and death investigator, former toxicology analyst, author of Forensic Science Applications to Death in Crime Scene Investigations, author of Bloodstained Pattern Analysis, author of Death Investigation Information to Obtain during a Forensic Death Investigation on Tick tock at Jeffrey Gentry, BP a Blood pattern analyst Facebook Jeff Gentry, Blood Stained pattern analyst Jeff, thank you for being with us, Jeff. Of course, I'm just a trial lawyer, but when I looked at the blood, let's see the blood that is outside of Nancy Guthrie's home, it looked to me like low velocity droplets free falling, which to me, to me it looks like maybe from a nosebleed. It does not look like high velocity spatter. It does not look like high velocity spray that you would see from a gunshot wound. It does not look like you don't. We haven't heard anything about throwback on the ceiling or the walls from a bludgeoning. And Jeff, when they first told me that her DNA, Nancy's DNA was found in the home, I was like, well, of course her DNA's in the home. She lives there. But how does that tell you, the sheriff, that she was abducted? Ergo, either a copious amount of blood, which means she's severely injured, or dead, like we saw in the Jennifer Doulos, CT mom of five case. There was so much blood in the garage, they knew she was dead. The location, such as on the ceiling. Right. Which would indicate a bludgeoning and then a throwback or spray or the high velocity, as if there had been a gunshot wound. Looking at the blood pattern that we see, Jeffrey Gentry, that gives me hope that she is alive because you don't have the other things that I mentioned, Jeffrey.

[B]

So when I, when I look at this blood, I of course, any blood at a crime scene is always concerning. I mean, you should take take all precautions. If you find blood at a crime scene, it is a tremendous amount of evidence that's in the blood. Not only can it tell you events that happen, but then of course you have the possibility to get DNA. But when I look at these blood patterns, I'm not overly concerned. So you're exactly right. These are passive blood drops. They are drip stains, a little bit of a drip trail and then there's a blood into blood Pattern. A blood into blood pattern is when blood is dripping from height into a blood source. And it creates that neat little pattern of drip stains with the little satellite spatter around it. So this would indicate one, that this is not a major injury. Somebody of that age can get skin tears very easily in their arms, on their hands, and those are going to bleed quite a bit. But it also indicates that this person is upright. They are stationary for some period of time. But then there's also movement as well with the drip trail. So nothing that I'm seeing would indicate that 1. This person has a traumatic injury like a gunshot wound or a stab wound. Like projected blood patterns you mentioned cast off from a weapon. You don't see impact spatter. These are all large volume stains that are going straight down, indicating that that person was either walking or stationary, but they're upright. The other thing that I look for is why isn't there blood on the doorknob?

[A]

Hold on, hold on. You got me drinking out of the fire hydrant. That's a lot. Okay, I like for you to just go, but I've got to dissect what you said. I hope I didn't interrupt your train of thought and you know, that you were going to say, and second, but could you again slow down and state what you just said? Because I find it extremely compelling. And yes, of course, blood at a crime scene is always bad. It's not good. But given that, would you start again with the passive blood spots, the drip stains?

[B]

Absolutely. So what we're looking at. I'm looking at the photograph right now. There is a drip trail. So those are individual circular blood stains that obviously fell from height. So this person is upright. There is nothing at all to indicate that they were dragged. There's nothing at all to indicate that they were on the ground and bleeding. You don't see any blood pools. So that gives me hope that this person is alive. The drip stains and the blood into blood patterns. That's one of the most common patterns you see at any scene. Just because usually somebody's upright, they realize that they're bleeding and they're walking around either trying to get help or going from one point to another.

[A]

Hold on, hold on. Look at the spot right there. Jeffrey, I'm following up on what you said. You could almost see. See what would be her footsteps based on what you're saying. One, by the doormat on square two. See, it starts on square two. Square one starting at the door. Step, step, step, step. I mean, I'm reading into it, but that's all we can do right now.

[B]

That's exactly what you'd expect if somebody has, say, a minor injury and they're kind of standing in the same spot, kind of moving around. But then a lot of times people are stepping in their own blood or the suspect is stepping in their blood. So I hope the investigators are picking up on that and looking for footwear impressions or what were the suspects possibly wearing. The good thing about her possibly bleeding, too, is the fact that her blood is not going to only be at this scene, but whatever vehicle she was taken in, the blood is going to be in that vehicle as well because of blood pattern like this. Considering that she might be taking anticoagulant medications, it's not going to stop bleeding right away. It's going to continue to bleed. And so that gives you the possibility of a forensic link from the crime scene to the suspect vehicle. But again, I don't see anything here that stands out as overly concerning regarding death. There's no blood patterns that would suggest a major violent event happened and that this person is obviously deceased. I don't see that at all.

[A]

Everything you just said is music to my ears. Jeffrey Gentry breaking it down in an amazing way. Look, she's 84. She's on meds. She's got a heart problem. She's got a pacemaker. She's bleeding. It's not good. I know it's not good, but I'm looking for anything. I'm looking for anything because I care about Savannah. I want there to be a good outcome. But we have to look at the facts as we know them. Minor injury, walking upright, no blood pools. She's not on the ground. Okay. Nothing to indicate a traumatic injury such as a gunshot wound. No cast off. Okay.

[B]

What more.

[A]

And I'd like to see the blood again. You were about to say. And second, what was second? Was it the vehicle, or is there something else?

[B]

One of the other. One of the other things that I look for is not only where did bleeding begin and where did it end? Where did the person start out, where did they travel to? But I don't see any blood on the door frame. I don't see any blood on the doorknob. It's a black surface on the screen door. But I don't see anything that would suggest that she was bleeding and trying to get back inside of her house. So you got to wonder, where did this begin and where did it end? Like I mentioned, there's no major blood pools. There's no transfer patterns on the Ground. So we don't think that she was dragged away from her home. We don't think that she crawled away from her home. There's only a couple possibilities. Either she walked away on her own and didn't have any major injuries, or she was carried away from her home. But then you got to wonder, too. Where did this blood trail end? Was there any blood in the driveway? How far did it extend? So I've got. I mean, unfortunately, it does give you a lot of answers. But then I've got a lot of questions, too, so I would love to be out there looking around at this scene.

[A]

Hold on. Before you start with those questions, can I see the close up of the door again? Because we were told, Dave Mack, that there were signs of forced entry. Gosh, I wish we could zoom in on that forced entry, but that the door was unlocked. That tells me maybe they came for. Wait, am I seeing forced entry? Right there on the right. No, I'm not sure that I am. They look at all those locks. There's a heavy duty. It looks like iron screen door with double locks on it. Maybe the forced entry was at another entrance or window and then they walked out this way. That's pretty bold to walk out of the front door. Am I seeing the front door, Dave Mack? I think I am. Is that the front door to her home?

[B]

It is. And the thing is, Nancy, you've got to realize that we've been told that Miss Guthrie cannot walk 50 yards without assistance. So she's not mobile, which means whoever is taking her out of the house would have to be helping her. So they wouldn't be able to go crawling out a window out the way they came in, they would pretty much be left with. If they're taking her out to go out the biggest pathway, which is going to be the front door. And as you mentioned, those blood patterns, if she's got a bloody nose or something along those lines, as they're taking her out, they're leading her, or I say they, because you're kind of talking to people having to help carry her out and lead her down the clearest path possible. So that pretty much makes that a real possibility.

[A]

Yeah. With my mom, unless she's using her walker, it is really hard for me to. I can do it, but it's really hard to get her up and walk her by myself. And as Jeffrey Gentry is saying, we don't see any indication in the blood that she fell at any point. Was being dragged along. A lot happening, guys. And I know we keep going back to the one photo over and over. But that is the way you prove a case. You take one piece of evidence, it could be this writing pen right here. And you think and you think and you examine until you squeeze every bit of information out of that one thing that you can. And did you hear Jeffrey Gentry analyze this blood in a way that I have not heard? Keep thinking, Jeffrey. Keep thinking. And percolating to Brian Fitzgibbons. I want to about talk to you about practicalities. Practicalities. If this is a ransom. Oh, and that reminds me, I'm going to circle back Jessica and Dave about do we believe this bitcoin account is real? Because I've heard that it has been authenticated. Doesn't mean the ransom notes real. Somebody could get my checking number. They could figure it out, right? Or come up with a number. But that doesn't mean I'm part of a ransom or a kidnap. So that could be a legitimate authenticated bitcoin number, account number and still not be connected to the Guthrie's. But to you, Brian Fitzgibbons, you've done this a hundred times. So you ransom someone, don't you believe at some juncture you're gonna have to show proof of life? I mean, why killer? Don't you think at some point they're gonna have to. If they want that money, they're going to have show proof of life.

[B]

Absolutely necessary. Right? Because that's the key to this whole thing. If this is a kidnap for ransom case, they will want to make it very clear to the Guthrie family that Nancy is alive and well prior to them sending any type of ransom money. They would obviously demand that. So that being absent from this ransom note really stuck out to me. Because you know, you're not going to risk communicating too many times without providing it and potentially exposing your identity.

[A]

What do you make of sending it to three different outlets? Kold, TMZ and kgun. Kgun. What do you make of three different outlets?

[B]

Fitzgibbons knee jerk reaction to this, Nancy, is that this is either a hoaxster who's trying to make a quick dollar off of this horrible scenario or second, if it is actually tied to the case that there's some kind of distraction taking place that they're looking up, looking to tie up resources of law enforcement.

[A]

Jeffrey Gentry, let me get you to weigh in on thought that was actually you brought it up as well. The blood. The blood conceivably in the car. If she is bleeding from the nose, how could they possibly erase eradicate the blood from inside the vehicle. And yes, there had to be a vehicle. And whoever did this is brazen because they took her out the front door right there in her own neighborhood. So tell me about the possibility of blood being in the car.

[B]

GEOFFREY Gentry so if, if this is in fact her blood, and I haven't seen anything in the news that would say that they did DNA testing already and proved that this was her blood outside of the house. There's always, I mean, I guess the possibility that it's a staged crime scene, too. I've, whenever I teach classes, I use my own blood and I'll make a pattern exactly like that to demonstrate an event where somebody's standing upright and bleeding. So there's always that possibility. So hopefully they've already done the DNA testing and have confirmed that that is in fact her blood. But if she's actively bleeding either from the nose, and my, my thought is just with her being a little bit older, rather fragile, that she might have skin tears on her arms. I would suspect that when they do find her, that she's going to have some kind of skin tears on her arms that created these blood patterns, arms or hands, because elderly people, their, their skin is thin. But if she's actively bleeding, she is going to keep bleeding. It's not going to stop. And so she's going to bleed inside of the suspect vehicle, either on door handles or inside on, on the seats. And that's not really easy to get rid of. I'm not going to tell everybody exactly how to get rid of blood, but I could definitely give you some ideas. But there should be some evidence of cleanup. If they did try to get rid of it, either bleach or other chemicals. And nine out of 10 times, if people, suspects are willing to leave behind blood at a crime scene, they're not going to do a very good job cleaning up a car. So that leaves me hope that there is going to be that forensic link between her residence and the suspect vehicle.

[A]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Back to Jessica Finn joining us, senior investigative reporter, US Sun. What have you learned about the timeline? At first we were told 2:45am now we're thinking more about 2:00am A neighbor states that he went by the home at 6:45am and nothing was happening, suggesting that she was still there. I think it says just the opposite, that it was all over. She had already been taken by 6:45am what are we learning, if anything, from the neighbors?

[B]

Well, so one of the neighbors, a couple of the neighbors now I've seen we have our Own reporter on the ground in Arizona at the US Sun. And then I've seen other reports of other neighbors who have actually reported that there was suspicious activity on their own property within like several blocks of Nancy's home. That people that there was an individual that had been snooping around and looked suspicious. The neighbor, one of the neighbors that we spoke to had actually called the cops about this incident back when it happened two months ago. There was another incident in the last couple of weeks with another neighbor that was about 10 minutes away from Nancy who reported a similar incident. And so then we have the neighbor that's directly across the street who said, when I had emerged from my home at 6:45am on Sunday morning, I didn't see anything. So, you know, again, there her car was left behind, her wallet, her keys, her phone. You wouldn't notice if Nancy was there or not at 6:45 in the morning if she had already been taken, because everything was still left as is. Besides Nancy herself, you know, from what we know, she was dropped off at 9:45pm on Saturday night. And that drop off what came after? She had dinner at Savannah's sister and Annie's house. And Annie's husband, Tommaso, they had dinner together. And then Tommaso drove, drove Nancy Guthrie back to her home. He watched her go in the door. But of course, by the next day she was supposed to show up at church. And around 11am one of her fellow parishioners called the cops to call the family first to let the family know she wasn't there. And then the family went to go check on the house. Of course the cops were called. That's kind of the general timeline that we're working with.

[A]

I noticed that you just said that the son in law dropped her off, not the daughter, and that he waited for her to get into the home before he left. Correct?

[B]

Yeah, it is, it is. It's been confirmed that he was the.

[A]

Last guy to see her. Okay. And they all had dinner together before that, is that right?

[B]

That is correct.

[A]

Okay. At this hour we are learning that multiple experts are pushing a multiple abductor theory. Jessica, why?

[B]

Well, for a number of reasons, she's not mobile. Like we've said earlier in the broadcast, she can't get around on her own. So it would take some effort to actually physically get her out of the house. And not in the sense that it would take two people to carry her, but you need like somebody to escort her out. You need the waiting car. You need to get her in the car fairly Quickly. And so there's the idea that, you know, really, this is at least a two man job.

[A]

There's also been some theories that there.

[B]

Possibly was like a junior abductor or kidnapper involved who may have been scoping out the property in the days and weeks before this actually all went down. But it does seem that at least the very night of likely requires a couple of people to get her out of the house and quietly gag her if needed and get her into the car and then swiftly drive away.

[A]

Dave Mack joining us from Crime Stories. Dave, what can you tell me? Can you expound upon the sightings of a, quote, suspicious person?

[B]

Actually, Nancy, yeah, There, there are actually more than one. Okay. A suspicious man was actually seen lurking in someone's yard a couple of weeks ago. And it was, he wasn't just like a phantom. It was enough that he actually set off a motion detecting light that awoke the homeowner. This was about 10 minutes away from Nancy Guthrie's home. You know, as we've mentioned, it is a neighborhood, but the homes are not like, right. Pressed up against one another. There is a little distance between them. This is an elderly man and he says he caught the guy in his yard after the motion sensor went off and the floodlight switch is on. The light spooked the guy and the fellow left away. But that's not the only one, Nancy. That was several weeks ago. But now we find out that there was a suspicious tall, strange man reportedly lurking in a yard near Nancy Guthrie's residence about 30 minutes before police arrived. Thirty minutes before police arrived. Strange man in the neighborhood. All I could think of was Coburger going back the next morning. So we've got at least two different individuals.

[A]

I disagree and I'll tell you why. Because somebody had to be with Nancy Guthrie.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Unless there's more than one person involved, I don't think that. Well, but you know what? You're right. Coburger did go back. Coburger did go back.

[B]

I think you're talking about having more than one person getting her out. Again, this goes back to her lack of mobility. Her size, medium build and 84 years old. She's not going to be moving fast. You're going to have to have help to come out of that house. And you talk about you're taking care with your mother to get her moved around. And these are people that don't care. And it's not going to be easy. So I'm thinking there had to be at least two. So there might be somebody sitting with her wherever they are while the other one's back there watching what's happening.

[A]

Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us, a renowned psychoanalyst. Dr. Bethany it's my experience when you bring somebody else in on your crime, at some point somebody's going to talk or the wife of the perp knows about it or the girlfriend or it just starting to get too big and too many people know about it. What do you think?

[B]

That's what I've been thinking.

[A]

I share your thoughts about that.

[B]

I was thinking who is sitting at.

[A]

Home watching their TV or reading, reading the news online and thinking, my husband left at midnight. I wonder where he went.

[B]

There's somebody out there who knows something. Nancy, in terms of these blood drops, she had a pacemaker which tells me she was also on blood thinners because.

[A]

You typically prescribe that to people who.

[B]

Have pacemakers and that the life saving.

[A]

Medication may in fact be her blood thinner.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that without that there's a chance of her heart throwing off clot or having a stroke or something like that.

[B]

Another question is if the blood drops end right there on the doorstep, how did they get her all the way.

[A]

Out to wherever the car was?

[B]

Did they have a wheelchair waiting for.

[A]

Her, which in which case they know.

[B]

A lot about her and her health issues. Okay.

[A]

So that's very important to me.

[B]

And was there blood in her bed? I mean, people who aren't blood thinners, often they just bleed during the night without even realizing it.

[A]

And then also if the blood stopped.

[B]

On the doorstep, did somebody have a cloth or a bandage or something waiting.

[A]

For her to stop the blood drops? And just one other quick thought, Nancy.

[B]

You know, I'm sure NBC is combing through all of Savannah Guthrie's emails.

[A]

Did she, did she cover a story that made somebody angry or pissed off or threatened? Was there somebody stalking her or threatening, sending threatening emails?

[B]

I mean, you said that the vengeful.

[A]

Nature of the random of the ransom.

[B]

Note or else is that reflected in language of emails that have been sent to her because she is a well known figure and they have a lot.

[A]

Of security at NBC and that's an.

[B]

Angle that I think nobody's talking about. It would be really interesting to know more.

[A]

Okay. At the risk of poo pooing, Dr. Bethany Marshall, focus on. Dr. I'm certainly not a renowned psychoanalyst, but that sounds like a fifth grade girl's mystery novel that Savannah covered a story and somebody read the story or heard the story and got so mad that they went, oh, I'm going to track down her mom on the other side of the country and kidnap her and ask for money. Hey, Nancy, I've had hate and threatening emails after being on your show. You know, thank you.

[B]

People read all kinds of meanings into.

[A]

What they hear public figures say. But also, could it have incited somebody into thinking about how to get back at Savannah or put her front and.

[B]

Center of some disgruntled person's life?

[A]

I think that's something that should be explored. You know, I can't poo poo anything because who would have thought that a PhD criminology student teacher would target four random people he's never met and murder them in the middle of the night? No sex attack, no robbery, but it's almost unheard of. So I really don't have a leg to stand on to poo poo anything at this juncture. Speaking of trolls, Jessica Finn joining us us son. What about it? I've heard that there are evil trolls attacking Savannah at a time like this.

[B]

Yeah, incredibly, I, I guess not incredibly. It is the world that we live in. Right. There have been several notes sent to Savannah through NBC. Basically, you know, claiming that they did this and all sorts of horrible allegations and, and threats to her. It's really kind of thrown her name aggressively into the national lexicon in a way that has not been, you know, in a way that her name has not been out there before. And unfortunately, when you're a victim of a crime, as you know, Nancy, you become victimized even further often as a.

[A]

Case like this unwinds.

[B]

One of the, one of the stories that I did earlier this week at the sun, actually, to Bethany's point, is how NBC has stepped up security in and around 30 Rock as a result of this case, that people on air, that the on air talent are very spooked over this whole situation. They're all very concerned for their own families and their own lives. And NBC has stepped up security around 30 rock. They've. They've also had additional NYPD patrols going on in the area. So this has had a real chilling and ripple effect throughout the NBC family.

[A]

Brian Fitzgibbons, how hard is it to track Bitcoin?

[B]

You know, what we learned recently is that this bitcoin account associated with the ransom note is indeed an authentic account. Now, when it comes to tracking the ownership of that account, that is certainly going to be a more difficult task.

[A]

Really? I thought it would be more like an IP address on a computer.

[B]

This, this, this could be a lot more complicated than that, Nick.

[A]

Well, okay, what do you mean by that? I'm just a lawyer. What are you talking about? Why is it hard to track a bitcoin account? Somebody's got to create it. It's got to be listed back to somewhere. It's got to be attached to. Is it attached to a bank or.

[B]

No, it's going to be possible. But the. But bitcoin inherently has certain amounts of privacy, a lot more than a standard bank account or an IP address would have. So. So you would have to assume that, again, if this is an authentic ransom demand, that the author of that ransom note has gone to great lengths to secure that bitcoin account that could not be traced back to him. And that is certainly possible.

[A]

Aren't they ID by alphanumeric wallet addresses and not names?

[B]

That is correct. So you're not going to have an individual's name and street address associated with it like you would, you know, if they said, you know, wire money to this routing number in this checking account number, you know, that would be easily traced and verified.

[A]

Well, I can tell you this. You may think it's hard to track bitcoin, and maybe it is, but what, are they going to let it sit there forever? At some point they're going to move it. And you want to tell me the feds aren't going to be up there, tailpipes three inches when they try to move that to another account? To another account? To another account. I mean, Washington, D.C. the FBI, they're crawling with people that are digital experts. This is their Super Bowl. Just please put money in that bitcoin account and see what happens. Although I find it interesting, I think Dr. Bethany brought it up, that it was sent to three news outlets. It K O L D and K Gun Kgun. Why then? Why not the family? Okay, hold on just a second. I want to make sure we've covered everything. The story that's floating around about an elite group from border patrol entering into the fray. Dave Mack, that's been discredited, correct?

[B]

Not just discredited. They were brought in for the first day of searching in the area around the home, but they were sent home Monday night.

[A]

Right now I understand that the search is back on. Drones, helicopters, foot searches have been called off for a period of time and they have been renewed. That gives me hope. That gives me hope that le law enforcement believes that they can find something through those searches. If you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of this beautiful grandma, Nancy Guthrie, please dial 520-351-4900. Repeat, 520-351-4900 before I sign off, Jeffrey Gentry, I gave you a minute to think through what you're hearing. Any other analysis of the scene or the blood?

[B]

I just think it's crazy that anybody would think that they could get away with this. Like you said, I mean, with the FBI, hundreds of detectives working on it, how do they possibly think that this is a crime that they could get away with? So I, I do definitely believe that there is good hope that she's still alive, especially considering the patterns, the circumstances, and hopefully they find her and quickly and the rest of people that are involved agree.

[A]

Again, tip line 520-351-4900 and not only that, we are seeking help from a higher source, and we ask that you join the Guthrie family and the Crime Stories family in prayers for the safe return of Nancy Guthrie to the loving arms of her daughter Savannah. Crime stories with nancy grace, Savannah Guthrie's Mother Missing Day 5 I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us in the last hours. A presser from local law enforcement. This following literally a heart heartbreaking plea from Savannah, her sister Annie, and brother Cameron, all three looking exhausted, bone weary. We'll play that back for you in full in just a moment. But first to the latest. I want you to hear what the sheriff said in the last hours.

[B]

I'll go over it with you. You can see it on the board there. But at about 5:32pm These are are approximate times. 5:32pm Nancy travels to her local family's home for dinner and playing games with the family. Just visiting at 9:48pm which is very consistent to what we were told by the family, that Nancy was dropped off at home. And we know that because we have a garage door open at approximately. Approximately. I can't stress that enough. At approximately 9:48pm at 9:50pm that garage door closes because that time we assume that Nancy's home and probably going to bed. Sunday morning, early morning at 1:47am the doorbell camera disconnects. At 2:12am Software detects a person on a camera, but there's no video available. They had no subscription and therefore it would rewrite itself. Kind of. It just kind of loops. Right. And covers up. That's what our analysis teams have told us. We're not done with that. We'll do all we can. But that's what it says, detects a person on camera. Could that be an animal? I imagine that's possible. We don't know that we Just have no video. Well, we're not giving up on that. 228, Nancy's pacemaker app shows that it was a disconnect from the phone. And at 11:56am the family checks on Nancy and discovers her mission missing. And at 12:03pm 911 is called in to the Pima County Sheriff's department.

[A]

What are we learning? 9:48, the garage door opens. 9:50, it closes. Door cam disconnects. 1:47. So 9, 10, 11, 12, 14 hours later. 212. I don't see how they can say this is a coincidence. This is an animal. The door cam disconnects at 147.212. Software detects a person on camera. And I'm gonna have to have Fitzgibbons explain what he's saying about looping and covering it up. 228. Wow. 16 minutes later, her pacemaker disconnects from the phone, which means Simply, it goes 20, 30ft away from her iPhone, which was left there in the home. Doesn't mean it quit working. It means it got away from the phone. The phone can't trace it anymore. 1156, family checks on Nancy. 1203. It's on. Joining me tonight, an all star panel to make sense of what we are learning now. We just got that timeline. So much is being made of. Is one of the family a suspect? And we heard this sheriff today state, we don't have a suspect. We don't have a person of interest yet. Everyone is under suspicion. That's what they always say. Everybody is under suspicion. But what would it take Bethany Marshall for family members to sit with her that evening, be with her and pretend nothing was going to happen, all the while plotting and planning her kidnap and faking it? I just. Did you see Savannah Guthrie, sister Annie, and brother Cameron? They did not look like any of them were faking it. I know Savannah. She's not faking it. I get a deluge of people online suggesting she is somehow part of this. That's just ridiculous. No, that did not happen. But look at their demeanors. Dr. Bethany, let's just clear that up right now.

[B]

Nancy's children are not responsible for this. They are not. I mean, I look at their demeanor. They're distraught. They're concerned. This is their mother.

[A]

We don't have any history to suggest.

[B]

That they had an antagonistic relationship with their mother. She was invited into the home on a Saturday night to play games and hang out with the family.

[A]

This is a beloved mother and grandmother. Now, what we don't know. And I keep waiting for this is we don't know about caregivers, gardeners, people who are coming in and out of her life.

[B]

Bankers, financial people.

[A]

There's somebody in her inner circle somebody should confides in. Maybe outside of her, her.

[B]

The sibling group of her children who.

[A]

Might know something about somebody who is.

[B]

Pestering her, bothering her, somebody she has a suspicion about.

[A]

And that's what I'm really, really so curious about. And none of that has come out so far. Dr. Bethany Again, I want to look at Savannah, Annie and Cameron last night again. I am getting deluged with people suggesting that they are somehow part of their own mother's disappearance. They say, look at Annie. She's not moving. She's not saying anything. Well, clearly they designated Savannah to speak. That's what she does for a living. They're numb. I've got to defend them. Dr. Bethany. They're numb. They're exhausted. That's why they're not lively and chattering in the background. I'm going to use a clinical term.

[B]

They're dissociated. We dissociate when reality is unbearable. This is unbearable.

[A]

Their dear mother is gone. There is blood on the front doorstep.

[B]

They can't even contemplate. Nancy, you. You've talked about your mother.

[A]

If something happened to her, you.

[B]

You wouldn't. You would panic.

[A]

But then you would become numb, too, because the possibilities are so overwhelming. They don't know if their mother is.

[B]

Being tortured, if she's alive, if she's dead. They can't even feel or think. Nancy.

[A]

That's what we're seeing. You know, I was looking very. You said I was looking very carefully at that door photo. The photo of the front door and the stepway, the driveway, walkway where there's blood. If you look carefully to the right of that double lock, there is a red smudge and it's in close proximity to the blood on the ground on the walkway. Is that Nancy's blood? Now, we've been told, and correct me if I'm wrong, Dave Mack, that there was no blood on the interior of the home that they've been able to identify yet.

[B]

I would make sure you say yet. They haven't said that it's in there yet, but they did identify the blood right there at the entryway as being Nancy's.

[A]

Well, if there's blood on the inside, then why haven't they identified that either? And, you know, another thing. Joining us, guys, Brian Fitzgibbons from USPA Nationwide Security for A living. He leads a team of investigators that go worldwide finding missing people. You can get blood DNA analysis back overnight almost immediately. I don't know what they're talking about. They're waiting on samples. Maybe they've gotten unidentified DNA and they're trying to get a sample from that. That would take longer.

[B]

Yeah, I think that there's probably some touch DNA from the inside that they're looking to analyze. And with now the FBI announcing that they're jointly on this case, the ability to process these things much faster is going to come into play. So, you know, I think in the coming days we're going to learn a lot more about the DNA.

[A]

Crime stories with nancy grace. So the mom is dropped off early in the evening around 9:48. That's when the garage door has activity. 9:50, the garage door closes. With me, as I mentioned, an all star panel, Dave Mack, crime stories, investigative reporter on this case from the very beginning, Brian Fitzgibbons, I just introduced you to him. USPA Nationwide Security and a renowned psychoanalyst, Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us out of LA. She's the author of Deal Breakers. You can see her starring on Peacock now. And find [e-mail] we're talking about the timeline. Looking at the timeline, 1:47am the doorbell disconnects. 1:47am the door cam. Doorbell cam disconnects. 2:12am Software detects a person on camera. But see, the camera part of that has been disconnected. So while the software is picking up movement, the cam isn't seeing it. That's how I understand it. But then Brian Fitzgibbons, he launches into some discussion that it could have been an animal. My question is, why would the door cam disconnect? I mean, look in the picture, there's just a silver circle where the door cam used to be. It's that silver thing right there. That's where the door cam used to be. It fit right, right there. It's gone now. What is he trying to say? What is he saying, Brian?

[B]

The, the animal. The animal comment was perplexing. I believe what the sheriff is saying is that at 147 that doorbell camera was removed from its base so that there was some digital log in the camera to that effect. Now, at 212, you have to understand a Nest camera has three modes. Home, away and off. And in the home mode, it will still register seeing a person and that will log that data in a log that it saw a person, but it won't be recording. While in home mode so, you know, was the camera in home mode? It just made. It logged that event. That's what it seems to be to me. I don't think that these cameras are going to mistake a person for an animal. Most of. The. Most of the cameras nowadays will accurately record, you know, if they see a dog or deer walk by it, it will record an animal over a person.

[A]

I've been saying, ring bell, It's a nest. You're right, Brian. Now, tell me how that works again. And I want to make what you say and what he said both be true. I want you to reconcile what he said, decipher it, and tell me what happened.

[B]

What it sounds like to me, Nancy, is that that camera was popped off from the inside of the house. So it didn't register seeing anybody. And then when it was moved at 2:12, it actually sees a person. So I think what we can see, what we can glean from this timeline is the doorbell camera was disconnected off the base. 25 minutes later, that camera is moved, and it's pointing in the direction that it actually registers contact with a person.

[A]

Let's hear it from the horse's mouth.

[B]

The doorbell camera, it was removed. We know that, but we're not confirming that any cameras were smashed or destroyed around the house.

[A]

Okay. All right. Dave Mack, speaking of cameras, quote, around the house, is it your understanding there were granny cams, as I call the ones we have for my mom? You know, there's nanny cams. I call them granny cams. Were there granny cams in Mrs. Guthrie's home?

[B]

That is what has been reported, that there were granny cams, as you say, in the home, that were there and covering certain areas of the home, so that if Mrs. Guthrie were to fall down or become incapacitated, they would be. They being the family or whoever had access, which we're told a very small group of people had access to the cameras, and they could actually see what was taking place inside the home while she was alone. We've pointed this out. 84 years old, great mental health. Physically, she's got some issues walking around. So it makes sense that they would have cameras inside the house. Interesting that the sheriff wasn't asked a question about the cameras inside the home. He volunteered that information, saying that they didn't, you know, have smashed. His comment was, I don't know where you're getting that information. Smashed cameras inside that home would indicate somebody was in there, that a knew the cameras were in existence, knew where they were placed, and also knew where they were angled to pick up movement of Mrs. Guthrie inside the home. And that individual or people or persons would have been able to avoid showing up, up on those camera angles so they wouldn't be picked up.

[A]

I believe his words were to the effect, no cameras inside the house were destroyed, which tells me that there are cameras inside the house. I mean, am I reading that incorrectly, guys?

[B]

No, you're absolutely right. That that's exactly what we learned from that statement from the sheriff that there are cameras inside the house. He has also unfortunately, indicated that they don't seem to have any of the footage from those cameras. He mentioned a couple of things.

[A]

He said something, Brian, about looping and covering itself. Looping over and covering up images of someone. What is he saying?

[B]

Yeah, that I was trying to figure out, Nancy. And my best crack at that is basically maybe it was the mode that this camera was set in that it was not set to record, but it was logging events, and that they're working with Nest and Google to try to extract that.

[A]

Another question I have is at 2:12am Software detects movement on the camera, but the nest has already been disconnected. So I'm trying to reconcile that. Does that mean it picks up movement but it can no longer record an image or it doesn't record an image, only movement. Could you break it down in simple terms, Brian?

[B]

Yeah. To explain this simply, these doorbell cameras will have battery power to them, okay? So you could disconnect it from that base. Then an event gets logged, you know, in it within its software. And that now you've moved it, but it's not seeing any person as it's moving. When you turn that, you know, 25 minutes later, somebody picks it up and it's pointing towards a person. Now it's logging that that event again, that it saw the person.

[A]

So it logs it. But is there an image? Because he's saying it loops over. Did it ever record an image? What I'm getting at, if it ever did record an image, whether it looped over it or not, could that be obtained from the. The cloud or is it connected to a local server?

[B]

My assumption would be that it did not. That it did not record an image.

[A]

Guys, we're also hearing more about ransom notes.

[B]

So the ransom note that was distributed to the media did make a demand for 5pm today. And if a transfer wasn't made, then I think a second demand was for next Monday. We're not going to go beyond that. But that was the ransom note the media received.

[A]

Well, it seems to me They've missed today's 5pm deadline. So we've got another deadline. Got a question. Did you guys glean that the ransom note sent to at least two, possibly three news outlets were the exact same ransom note? That's my understanding as we go to air right now. What about it, Dave Mack?

[B]

It seems to be that is the case because they, they, they being the sheriff's department, law enforcement has not indicated that they were all different individual. And what is being reported is consistent from all outlets so far. You know, we've got outlets there in Tucson, local tv, but then you've got the national angle of it with tmz and they appear to all say the same information. So whether they're identical, I don't know. But it was emailed to the outlets and that would be indicative of easy enough just to, you know, copy and paste or forward whatever you want to do.

[A]

Okay, if it's emailed, why don't we have the IP provider? What. How are ways that criminals hide the location from which they send an email, Brian?

[B]

Yes, so they could use a series of VPNs to protect the, you know, where they created the email accounts. You know, depending on how nuanced they are, they could make this very, very difficult. Now, what I will say is if there's any team, the FBI is probably the best in the world at unwinding that. So, you know, it takes time. And I think that that is something that they're clearly, clearly focused on.

[A]

Now, when you say vpn, you mean a virtual private network. How does that work? Because it seems to me that that could easily be pierced. You're on your computer and you go to private browser. I mean, how do you, how do you do vpn, Brian?

[B]

No, this would be far more nuanced in order to hide your identity from the FBI. It would be far more nuanced than subscribing to a VPN service. You would need to have planned out the devices you're going to use, how you're going to connect to the Internet, and then layering, filtering that message through multiple devices that might be not located with you. So I'd be unable to predict exactly how they did it, but my guess is it was a pretty nuanced effort to protect that.

[A]

So it's more than just an email masking service, like Simple Login or Firefox Relay. It's not just an email masking service. Could you be a little more clear about how it's done?

[B]

Yeah, I guess the key point that I'm trying to make is if you're going to hide your identity in sending an email from the FBI. It's not going to be a 9.99amonth subscription service that you log into and sign up for. You know, you're going to have to have some pretty advanced technical skills to at least delay that process. My. My bet is that they will be able to find the origin of that email. How long it'll take, I don't know.

[A]

Bottom line, though, if they find the origin of the email, it could be an Internet cafe where somebody goes in in disguise, even though they're recorded, and they log on with a fake email and they send the ransom, and they send it to the three news outlets, including tmz and kold. So how is that going to help me? Can the FBI ultimately pierce that? And when they do pierce it and they find somebody sitting there at Internet cafe with them with a disguise on, then what do they do? Brian?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, in that example you just gave, that would probably be the safest way. But at least they now know, you know, hey, this person was in this area. And that's where they're going to start to zero in detecting cell phone patterns. Was that cell phone near Nancy Guthrie's house? You know, now they can start to connect the dots further to try to narrow down who it was, whether they were in a disguise or not.

[A]

You know, I'm wondering about. Also pill counts. Pill counts. We know that she cannot survive without her meds. What about it? Dr. Bethany Marshall. If the perp knew which way her nest cams were pointed in order to avoid them, knew to disable the one on the door, managed to escape being caught on camera. Sent this by private network to protect their identity through layers and layers. And filters. And filters. The ransom note. Would they know enough to take her pills to keep her alive? Pills? Meds were there, but how many meds? How many pills?

[B]

You know, Nancy, if you really want.

[A]

To get money for kidnapping, you want a ransom, right?

[B]

You want to keep the kidnapped person alive.

[A]

But I think that in a case.

[B]

Like this, with an elderly person, I don't know that they're thinking that far ahead. I mean, there's some kind of desperation.

[A]

That drives a move like this.

[B]

I'm thinking about the motivations for a kidnap. You want money, right? You.

[A]

Maybe you're envious.

[B]

Maybe you hate Savannah Guthrie because she.

[A]

Has an incredible career. Maybe like Bryan Kohberger. Okay, just stop. Stop, stop, please, please. I'm not writing a fifth grade girl's novel. She hates Savannah. So she creates a huge plot to Cross the country to Tucson, got in the desert and steal her mother. No. And all this business. Oh, it's because Savannah was going to cover Epstein in an unaired segment. No, I think it's something a little different, Nancy. I think if any connection to Savannah, it's this. They want money. Savannah has money.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

To me that's very simple, Nancy. That's the connective line I see too money people, when they see money, they want it.

[B]

And that's why I was wondering earlier.

[A]

About caregivers, gardeners, anybody in her life.

[B]

Even church members who knew that Nancy was connected to somebody wealthy and famous and wanting to target that person for their money. As you know, Nancy, even like when.

[A]

There'S an elderly person who dies in.

[B]

A family, often the surviving sibling group.

[A]

Falls apart because somebody in that sibling.

[B]

Group wants the money.

[A]

Money is such a driver behind crime. So who in Nancy's life knew about the wealth that her daughter had and.

[B]

Who might have wanted that wealth?

[A]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, another issue that has now been made public by law enforcement, many media had already heard it and did not report it, including us, was that her pacemaker disconnected. It disconnected around 2:28. Now that again does not mean that she died and her pacemaker quit working. It means that more likely that she was out of range from her phone, which we know was left behind. What did he say, Dave Mack, what.

[B]

Did you glean that the pacemaker disconnecting from the phone, you know, it's connected via Bluetooth, which means you've got a 20 foot range. It doesn't mean that she was, that she passed away. It doesn't mean anything other than her phone was there on the nightstand and she was no longer within 20ft of that phone. So that's pretty much where they're leaving that particular comment. I'm talking about law enforcement talking about the pacemaker and what it means by disconnecting doesn't mean she's, you know, that she fell out. Doesn't mean that she, it just means that she was no longer within 20ft.

[A]

To Brivus Gibbons joining us from USPA nationwide security. Earlier one of our experts, Chris McDonough noted that when law enforcement left sister Annie's house, they had a look like a wooden but a box with them. He says that that is a U Fed U. The letter U is in Utah. Fed as in FedEx, which is a tool implementing Cellebrite. Cellebrite analyzes and can download very quickly all digital data from a location. We saw a very in depth explanation of cellebrite on the witness stand from the Secret Service in the Alex Murdoch case. That's when many people first found out about it. Explain if McDonough's right, what they did in Annie's home.

[B]

Yeah. So this, this Celebrate U Fed case, that the images were shared on social media. What that, what that's able to do is a complete extraction of all mobile phone data. Contacts, SMS messages, pictures, videos, call logs, audio files. It's going to do a full memory dump of that phone system providing, you know, even old files that were deleted, passwords, et cetera. So it's going to. That. That kit is a mobile kit that is assigned to that team that they brought there. You know, we can draw some conclusions from that. You know, are they just excluding family members? They want to get an image of those phones in that process, that's the most likely scenario.

[A]

Okay, Brian, one more time. And slowly, what does the U Fed do? Very slowly, how does it work?

[B]

So the U Fed is going to be able to connect to any mobile device and provide a complete extraction. Basically, they're going to get contacts, SMS messages, photos, videos, call logs, any audio files. All the IMEI data, anything that's on that SIM card will be imaged by.

[A]

That UFED device and it gets it immediately. Then it's got to be analyzed. And I'd like to point out to everyone, all you legal legals already know this. The first place law enforcement looks is at those closest to the victim. So of course they're looking at the family. So first thing you do is rule them out. Then you move out to people that worked with Nancy Guthrie, people that cut her grass, people that trimmed her trees, people that delivered mail, FedEx guys, UPS, the people next door, the people in the neighborhood, the people at the grocery store, the people at the church, the granny nannies, if there are any, and the granny nanny sons and the granny nanny husbands. And it goes out and out until you catch the person. Now, this person, I'm telling you, and guys jump in, is somebody local. Because why would they have sent the ransom notes to Kold and tmz, possibly kgun? K G U N? Because they're local. How would they know where she lived? Out literally in the middle of the desert, in this desert enclave. How would they know about the granny cams and the nest cam? Were they watching to see when she was brought home, when that garage door closed? All of this suggests someone that knows her or the family fairly well or can access that information. Also, yesterday we saw LE come back to the scene and go back and forth to the garage with canines. Now we know part of the timeline is the up and down of the garage door. Put all this together. Brian Fitzgibbons, what do you think?

[B]

Yeah. So with the up and down of the garage door and the timeline, you know, they're certainly going to find out, you know, is that a normal minute and a half, two minute gap for when Nancy's in and out of the house? If they have that data, they're going to be able to get past data as well to verify that. Nothing jumps off the page. To me there's what I think is really, really a big question about this timeline is with relation to the doorbell camera, there's a 25 minute gap from when that camera was disconnected to when that person is registered. The software detects a person. Right? What happened within that 25 minutes and how was nothing captured by these other cameras inside the house? You know, those are the main, that's the big question.

[A]

I'm curious. Hey, do you see the 2:12am Guys, software detects person on camera. Is that the door cam or is that the inside cam where a person is detected on camera? What about it, Dave Mack? Because we know she had a spike in her pacemaker at 2am Exactly.

[B]

So we know there's something going on in that house. Regardless of what law enforcement is willing to say at this point, this point you mentioned that a person appears on camera or motion is detected of a person. It's not a big leap to think we've got action taking place in and around the home and Nancy Guthrie becoming intensely aggravated, moving somewhere that her pacemaker reacts to that. We've got this very, very tight window here of activity that one can only look at the facts in front of you and say, well that's when she had to. Something happened to Nancy Guthrie between the time of 1:47 and 2:28.

[A]

Well, let me ask you this. The door cam disconnects 147. At 2:12 a person is detected on camera. But wait a minute. At 2am there is entry missing. At 2am we get a spike on her pacemaker. Does that mean the door cam disconnects? They're in the home at 2am waking her up, rousting her out of bed or off the sofa. 2:12am does software disconnect a person? Does software detect a person outside or movement inside, taking her out of her bedroom. 228, she's out of range. So what do you believe Dave Mack? That 2am Spike on her pacemaker indicates.

[B]

I believe that tied together with the 1:47am indicator that she was rousted out of bed, and I believe it was probably very physical to get her out of bed. You know, this is not a person who moves around easily. Somebody inside the home is going to want to get in and out of there quickly. They're not going to be gentle. They're not going to wake her up with some music. They're going to wake her up to a point where she is going to react in a state of shock, panic and fear. So that would make a sense. That makes sense for me at 2am having that spike 13 minutes after we get the indicator. And again, when you look at what else is coming up, it just shows you that some kind of chaos is taking place and she has reacted to it. And we know that we have her blood going out of the home between the time that we get that first indicator of 1:47, the 2:00am spike, and then 2:28. Nancy it tells you a lot.

[A]

It was over so quickly, her being taken from the home. What do you make of the 2:00am spike as it fits into the timeline? Dr. Bethany well, I agree with Dave Mack.

[B]

I think that somebody tried to get.

[A]

Her out of bed, somebody who was unfamiliar to her.

[B]

So you have the inner circle, you.

[A]

Have adult children, you have maybe the.

[B]

Church members, you have people who know.

[A]

Her intimately, and then you have the.

[B]

Next outer ring of people who know her intimates.

[A]

Maybe it's the spouse of the gardener, maybe it's it's a caregiver or a nurse who comes in and admits, you.

[B]

Know, gives, gives, administers medication and that.

[A]

She goes home and talks to her adult children or something like that. You have an outer circle, somebody who.

[B]

She'S not that familiar with, who tries.

[A]

To get her out of bed, and that's where you see that spike. So, Nancy, I'm going to go back to this idea that elderly people are their targets, right? They're very vulnerable, and especially when there's.

[B]

Wealth and she has a beautiful home.

[A]

I've seen that neighborhood. All these lots are one to four acres.

[B]

Anybody who goes through that neighborhood knows.

[A]

That NANCY that Nancy has money, right? And so they're enticed by the stories of the people on the in the.

[B]

Inner circle, and they're thinking about how can I utilize Nancy to get some financial gain.

[A]

And so when you go back to.

[B]

The spike, somebody's getting her out of bed who maybe is tangentially related to.

[A]

Her, but is not a primary person in her life. Guys, you're seeing a segment on the Today show, Savannah and her mom that was taken off YouTube. It was a. An Arizona homecoming where Savannah went back home. There's a lot of speculation that whoever plotted this, saw this segment and became aware of Nancy Guthrie. I don't know necessarily believe that because I believe the per is local. Anyway, that is from YouTube. And to you, Fitz Gibbons, where do you. What do you think the 2:00am Spike indicates?

[B]

Yeah, I'm, I'm in agreement with Dr. Bethany and Dave that, you know, what we're seeing is, is likely the perpetrator removed that was. Had already gained access to the residents by 147. And I think an important note here that we haven't talked about. To conduct an operation like this to abduct someone, it's going to take two people, right? There's very likely not one person doing this to pull her out of the house, put her in a vehicle and drive her away. All right, so I think what you see on the timeline is, hey, take the camera off. Person's now in the house. 2am is probably when they made first contact with. With Nancy. And I believe that the. The data bears that out.

[A]

And in the middle of all this, trying to find Nancy Guthrie and bring her home alive, an imposter ransomer emerges. What happened?

[B]

Dave Mack, at the first hint that there was a ransom note when TMZ went live before they went to police with the note, we have this ransom note appearing at KOLD and KGUN in Tucson. So it's public knowledge that ransom notes have occurred. However, the FBI investigates another ransom note that comes in. Now, this is one we don't know much about, but what we do know is that the FBI made an arrest today and it was of a ransom hoax. It was not similar to the other ransom notes that had been reported at this point. Suspected it was a hoax and they were able to arrest that individual trying to take advantage of the worst possible thing for a family to go through right now. He's already been arrested. He or she has already been arrested. Haven't got a name or anything else, but we'll find that out.

[A]

Dave. Matt, you have a concern.

[B]

I'm really concerned that the home was treated as a crime scene very early on. They, they being law enforcement, did all the work they wanted to do and released the home back to the family. But then yesterday afternoon we get word that they've got yellow tape up and they have blocked everything they off. And law enforcement, they've got FBI, they've got guys in tactical gear and K9 units are out at the site again, and it's an explosion of activity after the place, the home has already been released back to the family. That bothers me immensely because I wonder, what did they miss the first time? And why is it all of a sudden becoming a big issue again?

[A]

Well, obviously. And chime in, Fitzgibbons, if you disagree. They should never have released the crime scene. The crime scene should not be open now. It should be locked down. Everybody and their sister can go over there and poke around. Why has it been released? I think it's a horrible idea. What about it? And that opens up claims from an ultimate defense team that someone else came in and tampered with the scene and planted evidence. That's where that goes. Brian.

[B]

I couldn't agree more. That that scene should have been held and not released to the family, that that scene should still be held. And. And Sheriff Chris Nano said as much today in the press conference that that was a mistake. What. What he tried to explain it away with is that the FBI joined the case and they wanted to get a fresh look at the crime scene themselves, which is certainly a natural thing, you know, that that was a mistake. It's a Monday morning quarterback, as he said. But they definitely should have held that scene.

[A]

Did you pick up on what Savannah was saying? Oh, guys, that video was from our friends at 12 News. Did you pick up on what Savannah was saying about AI artificial images, artificial intelligence being used to create a photo or video of Nancy Guthrie? Does that indicate to you that the ransom notes had some sort of an image on them? Brian?

[B]

That was the very first thought that came to my mind when I heard that comment is that there must have been some kind of image or video included in that ransom note. And what Savannah was expressing is, hey, we need more. We need real proof of life, which in today's day and age with AI and the ability for deep fakes, is going to have to be closely coordinated with the FBI to have some kind of two way live video call, maybe on an encrypted channel that the FBI creates.

[A]

Speaking of Savannah's plea to the kidnapper, on behalf of our family, we want to thank all of you for the.

[B]

Prayers for our beloved mom.

[A]

Mom Nancy.

[B]

We feel them, and we continue to believe that she feels them too. Our mom is a kind, faithful, loyal, fiercely loving woman of goodness and light. She's funny, spunky and clever. She has grandchildren that adore her and.

[A]

Crowd around her and cover her with kisses. She loves fun and adventure.

[B]

She is a Devoted friend.

[A]

She is full of kindness and knowledge.

[B]

Talk to her and you'll see.

[A]

The light is missing from our lives.

[B]

Nancy is our mother.

[A]

We are her children. She is our beacon. She holds fast to joy in all of life's circumstances. She chooses joy day after day, despite.

[B]

Having already passed through great trials of pain and grief.

[A]

We are always going to be merely human.

[B]

Just normal human people who need our mom. Mama. Mama, if you're listening, we need you to come home.

[A]

We miss you. Our mom is our heart and our home. She's 84 years old.

[B]

Her health, her heart is fragile. She lives in constant pain.

[A]

She is without any medicine.

[B]

She needs it to survive and she.

[A]

Needs it not to suffer. We take too have heard the reports.

[B]

About a ransom letter in the media.

[A]

As a family, we are doing everything that we can. We are ready to talk. However, we live in a world where voices and images are easily manipulated. We need to know without a doubt.

[B]

That she is alive and that you have her. We want to hear from you. And we are ready to listen. Please reach out to us.

[A]

Mommy.

[B]

If you are hearing this, you are a strong woman. You are God's precious daughter. Nancy.

[A]

We believe and know that even in.

[B]

This valley, he is with you.

[A]

Everyone is looking for you, mommy, everywhere. We will not rest. Your children will not rest until we are together again.

[B]

We speak to you every moment and we pray without ceasing.

[A]

And we rejoice in advance for the.

[B]

Day that we hold you in our arms again. We love you, mom. We love you, mom. Stay strong.

[A]

We love you, mom.

[B]

We love you.

[A]

Crime stories with nancy grace.

[B]

The rational note that was distributed to the media did make a demand for 5pm today. And if. If a transfer wasn't made, then I think a second demand was for next Monday. We're not going to go beyond that. But that was the ransom note.

[A]

The media received the suggestion that time is up for Savannah Guthrie's mother. But the perp issued another ultimatum. Another deadline coming up in two days. Breaking news, Savannah Guthrie's mother missing Day six. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories and want to thank you for being with us. With me, an all star panel. Each one an expert in their own right. Straight out to Crime stories, investigative reporter Dave Mack. Dave Mack. Heartbreaking watching Cameron Guthrie's plea. This on the heels of sister Savannah. As a matter of fact, for those of you that have only seen our friend Savannah Guthrie's agonizing plea for her mother to be brought home, I want you to hear Cameron Guthrie's Plea for his mother to be brought home. Listen, this is Cameron Guthrie.

[B]

I'm speaking for the Guthrie family. Whoever is out there holding our mother, we want to hear from you. We haven't heard anything directly. We need you to reach out, and we need a way to communicate with you so we can move forward. But first, we have to know that you have our mom.

[A]

We want to talk to you, and.

[B]

We are waiting for contact.

[A]

Are they going to have to go old school to find Nancy Guthrie? I'm talking about dogs, drones, looking at the area. How far could she have gotten? Are there two or more people involved? This, as many speculate, the perp is within or close to the family. But I just want to tell you. Let me go straight out to you, Dave Mack. I find it very, very hard to believe. Let's see a shot of Savannah with sister Annie and brother Cameron as they were making that plea. I find it very difficult to believe, Dave Mack, that the brother and the sister and Savannah could sit there begging for the return of their mother while secretly wondering, hey, is cousin Larry part of this? I mean, knowing something of that import. I. I don't see it, Dave Mack. I mean, I know what the statistics say. I know the statistics say, look to those closest to the victim, but just looking at the three siblings, I don't see it, Dave Mack. Or maybe is that. I don't want to see it, Nancy.

[B]

It looks to me like they don't consider it somebody that's very close to them. But. But, Nancy, in all probability, the person or persons involved in this had access to that house before. Now, that leaves you with gardeners, people that come by to help out with things around the house. There are a lot of people that had access to that house, and they would have been familiar with camera placement and things like that that you've mentioned before about the granny cams. So there are a lot of people beyond that close family friend, group, group that would have had access to that house. And maybe that's why you're seeing. They just look devastated to me. The whole family does. And all the communication is one way. It's coming from the kidnappers to them. They have no way of contacting the kidnapper or kidnappers at this point. They've been given no communication, way of reaching out. That's why Cameron said, we need to know you've got her. We need. Okay. And we need you to reach out to us to tell us how to get up with you. They don't know who it is, but it could be somebody they've seen a lot.

[A]

You know, Dave Mack, you're right again. A lot of speculation swirling about a family member somehow being involved. But when I look at those three, I just don't see it. Or maybe I'm blind, but I'm rejecting that. This as the theory has swirled of a really sinister plot to go into the home and remove the door cam. The front door cam. Let's see a shot of where the door cam would have been. Like coming in for instance, through the back door, coming through, reaching out the front door and yanking that off. So you, the perp are not pictured on the door cam and then waiting. Because if you look at the timeline. Now, let's see the timeline, please. If you look at the timeline, there's about a 20 minute gap. You've got her coming home from dinner in mahjong with Annie and the son in law. Okay. Then the garage door closes and we assume she's entering through the kitchen door from her garage. Then look at it. The door cam disconnects on the front door. Then you've got about 20 minutes. Did they yank off the door cam and wait to see if police would arrive? Now, Dave Mack, correct me if I'm wrong, please, because these times are critical. Wasn't there a spike, a noticeable spike in her pacemaker, her heart monitor at.

[B]

2:00Am there was, there was a noticeable, noticeable spike at 2:00am so you're talking about 13 minutes after the camera is pulled down. And that 13 minute window, you know the first thing that happens when they're checking on somebody is the phone call. Are you okay? That's usually what happens with home security systems. And then if nothing there, then the police at 2 o'. Clock, we, I believe anyway that that's when the kidnapper or kidnappers were actually in her room and putting hands on her, getting her up out of bed.

[A]

Straight out to Chris McDonough, our long time friend and colleague. He is the director at the Cold Case Foundation. Former homicide detective with over 300 bona fide homicides under his belt. Also host of the YouTube channel the interview Room where I Found him. Chris, thank you for being with us regarding this whole theory that the family is involved in some way which I reject. I'm putting it out there. You and I have talked privately about. You fed, you fed. It's a Cellebrite system, it's mobile and it's carried in a box. Usually it looks like a, you know, a messenger boy bag or a briefcase that you wear over your shoulder that was seen being carried out of the Family home. Explain what the cellebrite you fed does in a nutshell. Don't go DEFCON 4 on me.

[B]

So. Well, there's a couple of things that it does. You'll. It's a mobile device that you can bring to a particular scene, in this case, the house. And then you're able to download any type of forensics evidence in the house from devices such as, as, you know, computers or, you know, phones, cell phones, et cetera. And then that information is immediately available through some software that celebrate has to the investigators on the scene.

[A]

It can get deleted texts, emails, IMs, it can get encrypted. And it really came to the forefront of our national knowledge, our bubble of knowledge, during the Alex murder trial when a secret service witness took the stand to explain how it was used in that case. And it worked. This is what I'm thinking. That witness that observed the agent coming out with the U Fed, it was like, you know, pouring gas on a flame. The suggestion that the families involved, number one, the families or scrutinized first, statistically, they are involved. I do not believe at this juncture that that is the case here. I want to defend them. So that is not out of the ordinary. This is what I think they should do. Chris McDonough. Everybody take a polygraph. Everybody. Everybody in the family, all the granny nannies, everyone that worked with her in her yard, in her driveway. The handyman, the instacart person, the pizza guy. All of them. Even the Sunday school teacher? Yes, I said it. Submit to a polygraph. What do you think about that? Chris McDonough? And then anybody that says H E double L, N O there at the top of my suspect list.

[B]

Yeah, I think almost immediately that's not a bad idea. And I think that could be a path. But you can take Savannah and the brother off of that list right away. What the anomaly is in that U Fed problem here is who brought it to the scene, and that was the ICAC team. Internet crimes against children. So this could be a whole other lane that's not even being looked at here. That is kind of a one off from the actual abduction of Ms. Guthrie.

[A]

Okay, put him up. Are you saying that now we're investigating a crime on a child? Are you actually saying that?

[B]

I. I'm saying that. Well, I'm saying it's possible there could. Yes, yes, it's possible.

[A]

Okay. No, no. They had the celebrex, so they brought it over. Now, if I'm asking you to bring over some case files, do you put on A crime stories t shirt. No, you come in, what you're wearing. Case off. No, no, I don't think. You know what? Take him away. I'm gonna let you sit there and think about what you just said. What? But, but, but, but, but what?

[B]

I'll tell you here. Here's the deal. When you have a major case like this, and I've worked many of them, and you run across something, you go, what is this? Okay, you don't have the ICAC people show up with their u fed. That just doesn't happen. That is a secondary problem that they potentially could have run into. It may not be involved with Ms. Guthrie in any way, shape or form. However, these guys did show up, and they don't show up to search for missing 84 year old women. That's my point.

[A]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Who are we looking at? Number one, I'm calling for polygraphs. Savannah Guthrie knows exactly what's going on right now. Savannah is not only a sweet, loving, sincere person. I know because I worked with her. I've seen her under all sorts of stressful conditions. Nothing like this, of course, but she knows the law people like the back of her hand. And I guarantee you she'd be the first one to get in line for the poly to make everybody else do it. So what do we do now? Todd shipley is with us. Digital cybercrime Expert, former detective sergeant Reno, 25 years in law enforcement, author of surviving a cyber attack. Author of investigating Internet crimes. This is your billiwick. The whole u fed celebrite. What do you think is going on? To me, it's sop standard operating procedure. Instead of carding all the family's laptops, their. Their desktops, their phones, everything out, they just did ufed. That's what I think happened, Todd.

[B]

I don't think you're incorrect, Nancy. I think what happened is it's who's available time. So you got a major crime and somebody could have been on vacation or something like that. And they said, who's got access to and who's trained to use the tool? And so the ICAT guys go, we're here. We can show up. What I think happened, though, is the reason they focus on the family, if they did at that time, was keep in mind things like ring cameras. And those other cameras can share the videos to other people. And so they may have been trying to find other evidence on those phones from the family's phones that was shared by the ring camera at the house. So there's a lot of other things that explain why this occurred. It wasn't that there was some other crime occurring. The family may have had evidence that they wanted to look at the Uber receipts, all the other things that were going on. They're trying to build a background around what happened. And it's on phones because we've talked about this many times about how the phones have everything about our lives and it's going to describe the mother too.

[A]

Okay, you listed, and I really like this idea. Todd Shipley. Other things, when I think of a U Fed cellebrite, I think a cell phone, I think of an iPad, a desktop, a laptop. You're saying there are other devices as well that can be factored into the U Fed, not just those devices. Such as what?

[B]

So what we're talking about is the apps on the phone because you can share those apps with other people. And so I can share my ring camera app with family, friends, whoever I want to share it with. And that may have been on the phone. And that's what they're looking for. They're looking for the Uber connections. They're looking for all the apps that were used to build a background about what the mother did beforehand.

[A]

But how would looking at their devices and their laptops and so forth help them establish what Nancy Guthrie did?

[B]

Because you can share everything. You do Uber. You do an Uber. I can share it with a family or friend that I did it. I can share the camera itself and let other people see what's happening at my house so I can get the notifications and get information. And that may have been what's on their phone phones. It's not something nefarious. It's just that all these things can be shared between phones now. And they could have had the images or some other things, maybe even the pacemaker. I don't know how the pacemaker, this particular one worked, but it could have been shared across other devices so that people knew she was in trouble.

[A]

Okay, I've got an example to boil down what you just said. And I found like parables that this made more sense to juries. Okay. We have granny cams at our home because my mother, my 94 year old mother lives with us. My husband has the app, I have the app, our children have the app. So you're saying that, for instance, if the feds came and did celebrite on me, they could get anything I shared with my children, such as my life. 360, Bart, they're on my Uber eats, they're on my Uber. Is that what you're saying.

[B]

Exactly. And Life360, you know, is a great example of one of those things that are shared commonly amongst family to track and identify where people are at, especially a vulnerable senior. That's an important thing to understand where they're at. And so the family wants to know. So their apps are going to be tracking what's going on with.

[A]

Okay, what if they had a family phone plan? Do you know about those? A group of people. Okay, explain that. Would that be included?

[B]

Well, it could potentially. It just depends on the settings that you as the user set up or the owner of that family plan. Now, some of those things, those family plans, you know, share the text messaging, share all those things. And you can, as the owner of the plan, can go in and see activities, certain activities, depending on what's happening. So those are other technologies that, you know, the law enforcement is going to be looking at to see the behavior before and after the incident.

[A]

So bottom line, Todd Shipley, if they could, you fed, and I'm using that as a verb, celebrate the family's information, they could then at the same time capture any shared apps that were shared with Nancy Guthrie. Correct?

[B]

Correct. Exactly. That's. That's why the celebrate was there. They were looking at every phone.

[A]

Got it. And just an example, Todd Shipley, of how important that is, the Brian Kohberger, ID case. We know that there was a delivery, I think it was a DoorDash around 4am 3:30am 4am because we saw it on one of the victim's phones. That's how important this is. I'm thinking about how to go old school to find Nancy Guthrie, starting with LPR's, license plate readers, red light cams. Yes. Jeffrey Gentry joining us, forensic certified blood stain pattern analyst, senior crime scene analyst, death investigator, author of bloodstain pattern analysis, author of forensic science Applications to death in Crime scene, author of death investigations Information to obtain during a forensic death investigation. It goes on and on. Let's talk old school. We've heard over and over from mainstream media that nobody's door cam could likely catch anything because as the houses in that neighborhood are set far off the street and there is a lot of foliage, trees, you name it. That's why people want to live there. You have a secluded look at all the. Oh, can I see that aerial again? Look at all the trees, the foliage around each home. I see what they're saying. But. But those streets, Jeff Gentry, have to pour out somewhere like the stream to the river, like the river to the sea. There's an outlet somewhere. And at that outlet, I guarantee you there's a red light. Bam. What about it?

[B]

I completely agree at this point. Six days into this investigation, if you do not have a suspect and you do not have a solid lead, you can't just sit around and wait. I know. We have tons of people working on this. You actually have to go out, like you said, get old school. You have to rely on traditional police work and you have to rely on science to solve this crime. This is not your typical criminal. It's not somebody that has made huge mistakes. They probably didn't have their cell phone with them where they're going to get cell tower pings. They're not making major mistakes like you see in a lot of crimes of passion. This is obviously planned out. This is not your typical crime. But you see that they did make mistakes. They took things from the home, like the camera. They made mistakes by leaving blood stains behind. So when you're talking about forensics and science, you think about every single contact leaves a trace. That's one of the foundations of forensic science. Every single contact leaves a trace. So when this person was preparing for this crime, they left forensic evidence. When this person was traveling to the scene, they left forensic evidence when they broke into the home. And we're talking about forced entry. A lot of people don't know what forced entry means. It means like a door was either pried open, a window was broken, somebody used some kind of a mechanism to unlock a door. So that's what forced entry means. So they're leaving behind evidence. Looking at the front door, I don't see any fingerprint dust. So what I would do in this case is I would scrap everything, start from scratch, recreate this whole event, try to think about how this criminal got in the home, walk their path. How did they interact with the victim? Walk their path? Did they sit down somewhere? Did they touch things? Did they wash their hands? Did they eat something out of the refrigerator? All of these contacts inside the home and with the victim can leave trace evidence. It could leave fibers, it could leave fingerprints, it could leave DNA. You can't rule anything out in this case. Even if they've released the scene, they can still go back in and use blood enhancing chemicals like blue star in the dark to see if blood stains that may have been wiped up or maybe small blood stains that got disturbed during these contacts. You have to think like a criminal in these cases. How did this person get in? How did they exit the door cam? Most of these door cams, you can't just pull them off. They require some kind of special tool to get them off. So was there some kind of a scratch or did they leave a fingerprint behind when they were reaching through the door to remove this camera so it wouldn't see when they're walking her out? Like we mentioned before, there doesn't really appear to be a struggle at that front door. We know that she was bleeding. We know she's standing there for some period of time. We believe that she was upright and walked away because the nature of the blood stains. But why didn't she fall to the ground? But what was the reason that she left that home without being dragged away or carried away? There's no evidence that she was murdered in the home. So why did she leave? You have to think about all these things. You can't rely on, you know, assumptions at this point. You have to recreate everything and figure out where this person messed up, because this criminal did mess up somewhere, and they will be caught.

[A]

One thing I've been wondering, and I'm projecting. It's really hard to pick up my mother, who's very light, she's 94, and move her anywhere without her walker. Very hard. Now, Nancy uses a cane. Is her cane missing? Did she have a walker that's used at home? Is it missing? Did they take that? If they didn't, I'm wondering if there had to be two people to help her walk.

[B]

Jeffrey, that's very possible. I think about my own mom when we're looking at this case, because she's kind of built the same way. She has thin skin. She would bleed easily. And anytime that my mom has ever been in, like, physical distress or needed help or, you know, when she had knee surgery, I had to help her throughout the house. It's not easy. Even if somebody's not a very big person walking them throughout the house, they're gonna be touching different things. They might fall down. So it's not an easy thing to. And if you're trying to remove cameras, if you're trying to get out to a car quickly to leave the scene, they're going to be touching things. There's going to be things disturbed. I want to know more about what's inside the house. I would love to know that, and I would love to see this scene. I would love to see the area. I would love to walk around door to door, ask neighbors again, what did you see? Every little piece of information is going to be critical at this point.

[A]

Crime stories with nancy grace, Police bringing out devices Bringing out evidence. They're swarming it still. This is from our friends at K O L D. The search was called off for a period of time. Then it resumed. Much has been made about law enforcement releasing the crime scene and then having to come back to the crime scene. Does anybody on this panel disagree? They released it prematurely? I didn't know what they were thinking when they did that.

[B]

I think that was a mistake, that you have everything that you need. It's not uncommon to release a crime scene and it's not uncommon to go back to a crime scene scene after it's been released. After you bounce ideas off each other. Like, for example, I think that they should probably go back in there again and open up drains, take every single device.

[A]

As I have said many times, they release a crime scene and everybody and their little sister could go over there and poke around those photos of the blood that was taken by media. That's not right. No, they should not have released that crime scene because now it's been totally compromised. You ever tried to try a case when the scene's been compromised? It's hell. It's like the golden lottery ticket for the defense to claim, oh, that wasn't there before. It was planted, and so forth and so on. Can we get back to the ransom notes? We all know by now, all you legal eagles know that a fake ransom note was delivered by text to Savannah and I think her brother and. Or her brother and sister. That perp has been found. He's been arrested and he's going to be prosecuted under federal law. And the theory is he used interstate commerce. What does that mean? Anything that crosses state lines has been deemed by our Supreme Court to be use of interstate commerce. Either you're driving across state lines, that's interstate, and you're using a vehicle and you bought gas. Hey, that's commerce. You may be using the phone. You pay a phone bill. That's commerce. You may text, you may send a telegraph, a telegram. It doesn't matter if your communication crosses state lines or any way controlled by the federal government, you have used interstate commerce. Bam. Does that make sense to everybody? No, it doesn't. But it makes sense to the U.S. supreme Court. So when this guy sent a text across US Airwaves to Savannah for a ransom, which is a violation of the law, that's interstate commerce. He has already been booked and he is in jail. We have also learned, Dave Mack, that law enforcement has said all the fake ransoms are bogging down the investigation. There's that many, you know, Nancy, this.

[B]

Is one of those situations where the media interest, because people are so fascinated by this, mainly because of Savannah Guthrie, but also the fact that there's an 84 year old woman missing and it's got people going crazy. So yeah, the fact that we know there are ransom notes, you know, we've had plenty of missing people cases that we've covered that didn't have ransom notes, but here we have them. So all the crazies have come out of the woodwork and they're flooding all the investigators have to take everything seriously. As they said from the very beginning. You know, before they even verified the first ransom notes we heard about, they were like, like we are taking every tip, every call seriously. They have to, it's an investigation and that's what they've been doing. That's how they were able to get the guy arrested in California so quickly. They've already got him admitting that he, he sent the fake or that he sent the fake messages. You know, they had him tied down in a matter of 24 hours, Nancy. So yeah, they're spending a lot of time on everything that comes into them, including fake ransom notes. Trying to take advantage of a bitcoin billionaire. You know.

[A]

You know, I'm thinking about technology, about going old school to solve this case. When we say old school, Todd Shipley, you were reeling off a lot of must do's. What are they, what must be happening right now?

[B]

Well, from a technology point of view, what the law enforcement is looking at is anything they can find where there's a record. They're looking at the tower records for all the cell phones in that area. Keep in mind there's always going to be a lot of records, but this is the middle of the night, so there'll be less. There's a good look at all the flock cameras and any cameras that are reading license plates in and around the area in throughout Tucson because they're trying to find any suspect that's moving at that, that time of night. And so that's going to limit the amount of people moving around. So I know they've already looked at all the ring cameras in the neighborhood. They're looking at all the records that they could find. Technology wise, they've gone through her phone trying to figure out other things that she's done that could lead up to a precipitate something. Keep in mind we don't know the contact she's had with other people. One of the things I talk about all the time with seniors and vulnerable people is that if you're not paying attention, they could get sucked into some kind of scam and you don't know it. So they're looking at her phone to find out if she was texting, Communicating with, on WhatsApp, was somebody talking about bitcoin or something else and becoming, you know, more conversant with the kinds of contacts she had towards the end there. So there's a huge amount of valuable data they're going to get from the technology.

[A]

What about it? Jeffrey Gentry?

[B]

I'm curious about the motive. Is it really financial at this point? Because you have a person that has obviously put out there that they want money for this crime, but they haven't been in contact with the family since they haven't been in contact with law enforcement. So I think you have to kind of start thinking about doing some profiling in this case, trying to figure out who this suspect is, if what actually is their intended motive and why haven't you heard from them? Why, why aren't they reaching out?

[A]

Well, I think the motive is clear. Have I missed something? They said give me millions in Bitcoin, quote, or else. I think that's the motive. Which leads me to, has anybody hit Nancy Guthrie or her family up for money? Is somebody in need, financial need that they know of? I would be looking at every single person and their husbands and sons that need money, anybody with a record. They've already been looking at sex predators in the area. But it's not about a sex predator. I'm telling you that right now. Agree or disagree?

[B]

Chris McDonough yeah, I wouldn't take anything off the table though, because she's such a low risk victim here, there is an association between the victim and this offender. And to your point, Nancy, somewhere in this circle of influence, and you always do start with the family, of course, and you work your way out. This offender is familiar because if you look at the victimology of this particular woman here, you know the, the offender risk of just arbitrarily showing up at, you know, 2 o' clock in the morning, ripping a doorbell off, breaking into a house, you know, taking an 84 year old woman out of that house and then saying, oh, by the way, I need Bitcoin between million, that tells us a whole bunch about the unsophistication of this particular perpetrator. So that means at some point they have crossed paths. If you look at this picture here with her sitting on that chair, look at her left hand. That to me, when I first saw that photograph, I thought, okay, did she fall going outside onto that porch. Because when you look at the blood evidence there, there's also a piece of the debris over on top of the blood and those are 90 degree droplets, which the other guests I'm sure would agree with. If you look at to the upper left hand quadrant, there is a debris on top of that blood. So I went back and looked at the news reports where they showed the evidence technician photographing that. And so does that tell us that the suspect was behind her and had kicked that debris on top of that blood and had she fallen and was trying to get back up, which would create those 90 degree blood droplets there? So I think there's a possibility that you do have to go old school. The technology is going to be a bonus. But somebody knew who Ms. Guthrie was.

[A]

Let's analyze what he just said about the blood.

[B]

Jeff Gentry so he's exactly right. Those are 90 degree blood stains, indicating that they were created when somebody is standing upright and bleeding. What I don't see though is any evidence that she was on the ground struggling at any point. So if she did fall and was injured in some way, I don't see any. They're called transfer stains and they look completely different than the 90 degree blood drops or the stains that you see there. And if she was on the ground actively bleeding and trying to support herself, trying to push herself back up, you would see evidence of blood transfer on the ground. You would see contact stains on the wall maybe where she was trying to reposition herself. He's exactly right that the debris is on top of the blood stains. So that gives you an element of timing. But I do know that the, the weather there in that area, I was told that it was, it's rather windy on a regular basis and so it's not uncommon for things to blow onto the porch. So it's but possible that those debris.

[A]

Items were but rocks, gravel. I don't see wind blowing rocks or gravel. Little pieces of gravel. I don't see that. Maybe a leaf. So what is your analysis about? Is he saying debris? It looks like the gravel that was beside the ornamental gravel that was beside the walkway.

[B]

There's an area. So if you look two bricks out from the wall or two tiles out from the wall, there's an area where there's multiple blood drops and then little tiny individual satellite stains. And I talked about this the other day, that that's. It's called a blood into blood pattern or a drip pattern and that's where somebody is stationary. And the blood dripping into the blood Source or the blood pool creates those little satellite stains. So that's, that's going to indicate that she was standing in that position for some period of time, dripping blood onto the ground. So actively dripping blood onto the ground. And then next to that, coming out, one tile, you see what looks like possibly a footwear pattern in that. So whoever was assisting her or if she was wearing shoes.

[A]

Hold on, where do you see a footwear pattern?

[B]

A third tile out from the wall, there's several drip stains and then what looks like a footwear impression there or a partial footwear impression.

[A]

Jeffrey Gentry, what do you make of the gravel disruption?

[B]

That could definitely be somebody walking through it or kicking it. Or like your other guest said, you know, if she was struggling in some way or maybe even trying to get away, that's, that's definitely possible that the gravel was disturbed there or what. They were trying to help her up if she fell or if she was injured or trying to resist in any way. But if she was on the ground actively bleeding, you would see different blood patterns to indicate that. I don't see anything that. That to me would suggest that she was.

[A]

You know what it indicates to me? Just go with me for a moment. Pull back out, if you don't mind, on the picture. I want to see the picture at a greater distance. It looks to me like somebody's walking beside her and maybe trying to hold her up and they've gotten into the gravel. The gravel is to our right. It would be her left holding her maybe under the arm and she's walking forward and somebody is on her left in that gravel. We know her cane was in the home, so she needs help walking. According to Jeffrey Gentry, who is a blood spatter analyst, she's upright and walking based on the blood spatter. So we know at least one person, if we're reading this correctly, is helping her out the front door or their two people. Another question let me throw at everyone on the panel. I've gotten a lot of questions on social about her pacemaker. And yes, I had thought about it. I researched it. I spoke to a doctor. There's no GPS in a pacemaker. That's the way I understand it. So we're not going to find her. Somebody even on Twitter tweeted me the novel idea of putting her phone, which was in the home, onto a dog and letting the dog with a handler go through the area and see if the pacemaker alerted. That would be a very rudimentary experiment. It probably would not work. But the point is well taken Is there a way to try that pacemaker? Does anybody have an idea? Because what I've been told, the answer is, no, there's probably not.

[B]

I've dealt with pacemakers a lot because during the death investigations, you have to remove people's pacemakers to have them analyzed so the doctor can do it in the office. But once somebody is deceased, obviously you don't take them to a doctor's office. So you remove their pacemaker to have it analyzed. But in her case, it sounds like it's still working and could possibly connect if her device is close enough. But I think it has to be within several feet or a pretty close distance to her and the pacemaker to get any reliable information from it.

[A]

Well, the other thing is, as I understand it, the pacemaker feeds information back to, let's say, the doctor's office or the clinic or the pacemaker administrator. But you have to be near the device, the pacemaker device, send it out across the airwaves. You've got to be near the device. Like her device would be at home or it would be her iPhone that would count. The pacemaker in no way is able at this juncture to send information about her, whether she's had a heart event or where she is now that she's away from the Bluetooth at the home. Cannot trace her through that. Does a pacemaker continue to work post mortem? Anybody know?

[B]

Yes. Yes. And they're designed, Nancy, for to report once a day to the doctor's office, typically. I mean, the scheduling could be a variance based on the patient's history. However, they typically have to be near that device, that is the phone or an Apple watch or something to that effect. And of course, now we know at least she was separated from that device around 2:27am or 2:28am so she could still that pacemaker could still be functioning, but it's not reporting, so she very much could be alive.

[A]

So, Todd Shipley, you're telling me license plate readers, cell phones, data dumps, obviously, cameras at red lights for those early morning hours when there's less traffic. Any other polygraphs on everybody. And if you're not willing to take a polygraph to hay with you, you're now on the suspect list. Am I missing anything, Shipley?

[B]

Well, the cameras are going to tell a story. Whether it's going to have a complete story, as we know it's probably not, but they're going to be a lot of information that they're still trying to go through because you're talking hours of Data.

[A]

And there were cameras in the home. Todd, There were cameras in the home. Hey, I want you to hear this fact. Dave Mack, tell them about the status of the cameras in the home.

[B]

What we were told or what has been reported is that cameras inside the home that were there and they were placed at different angles to cover all areas inside the home home so that they could be checked on by family members in case Nancy were to fall or become incapacitated, they could then see inside the home. It has been reported that, yeah, they didn't pay for the subscription service. And so the cameras didn't record anything other than for eight hours and then it just continued to tape over. So there is nothing saved. By the time the police were involved, she'd already been gone.

[A]

Nothing. And very quickly, Jeffrey, what is the difference in the wide pattern of blood drops and the tight groupings? Is that where you're saying blood into blood? So she's standing in one place? Is that what you're saying? There's droplets and then there's satellite droplets?

[B]

That's exactly right.

[A]

Okay, Chris McDonough, other than canines, and if you'll recall, Chris McDonough, a canine, tracked Lacey Peterson from, from her home all the way to the San Francisco Bay. And she was in the back of a boat, we think, right?

[B]

Yes, ma'.

[A]

Am. So if she could be traced that way, I'm wondering why cadaver dogs can't at least give me a direction in which Nancy went well, and that's where.

[B]

They, the US Customs and Border Patrol K9 teams, the Borac team, was brought into this because those dogs are trained not only in tracking, but they may also have other dogs that are cross trained into the cadaver aspect. So they're going to put those dogs in a 30 foot lead and they're going to get some type of sense inside of the house that belong to Nancy, typically a shirt or rag, a shoe, something like that. And then they're going to let the dog run. So the fact that those dogs are there, Nancy, they, they really step in it up because those dogs are really super good at what they do.

[A]

Let me go straight out to you, Dave Mack.

[B]

Nancy. Earlier today, Tucson TV station KOLD received an email having to do with Nancy Guthrie. The FBI is working to confirm if the note came from the same sender as the first reported ransom note referencing Nancy Guthrie. And officials caution it could take some time to verify due to technical factors. It still hasn't been verified that the first note came from someone who may have taken Nancy from her home. In a statement, the Pima County Sheriff's Department says the FBI and Pima County Sheriff's Department are aware of a new message regarding Nancy Guthrie. Investigators are actively inspecting the information provided in the message for its authenticity. While this is one new piece of information, the FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's Department are still asking anyone with tickets tips to contact the FBI at 1-800- CALL FBI. The FBI continues to offer a reward of up to $50,000 for information leading to the recovery of Nancy Guthrie and or the arrest and conviction of anyone involved in her disappearance and Nancy. That's not all. Investigators are back at Nancy Guthrie's house. They are closing down the road and they're moving all media out of the area for what they say are investigative purposes.

[A]

If you know or think you know anything about Ms. Guthrie's disappearance, please dial toll free 800-225-5324. If you wish to remain anonymous, 520-882-7463. There's a $50,000 reward. 520-8827, 7463. And please, again tonight, join us in prayer for the safe return of Nancy Guthrie. Good night, friend.